Emotions in Quality: De-escalation and a Tribute

Quality Assurance professionals are tasked with bringing continuous improvement to organizations. This means change. Change can evoke emotions.  Do we prepare our quality professionals to navigate emotional conflict?   

This episode discusses tactics to minimize and de-escalate conflict in the workplace with help from Joel Reinesch, Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice at Dakota Wesleyan University, former Police Officer, and Marine. 

Special Agent Wade Krieger inspired the idea for this podcast and had planned to record this with me. He passed away in 2021. The episode is a tribute to him.

Transcript

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Aaron Harmon: 0:00

Hi, I'm Aaron Harman and this is inside out quality, a podcast about real life events and experiences shared by our guests of when things have gone wrong, and how we can learn from them to build better products, companies and improve lives through an effective quality system. January 8 2020, I sat in my car with Diane Cox in the parking lot of the medical device supplier in the Minneapolis area. We had just completed an audit. a month earlier I reached out to NASA when I saw the press release for the SAP a supplier investigation. I was so intrigued that I wanted to know who performed the investigation to uncover the fraud. They connected me to Wade, the plan was to ask way to present a clip at a local quality Professionals Network we have in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Well, we talked all I could think of is how amazing it was. I could talk with someone who helped uncover something plaguing such a large asset like NASA, it seems short sighted to have way present, just equip it and then move on. I want to talk more than just a single presentation. I wanted the story to be captured and preserved. And so a podcast was a solution. On the phone I listened to wade talked about pivot at the end mentioned the podcast idea. Fast forward to August 2020. I have Diane on board for the podcast to be a co host. We met with Nate peple about the idea and our need for audio support. Joanie extra South Dakota biotech agreed to help support it financially. And Barbara was there to help us with the graphics. We knew we wanted to iron out any kinks before recording Wade So my friend Doug Moffat and his wife Robin agreed to be our first guest. Next, we record wade in October 2020. The episode ended and launched in December, weighed in I had talked enough at that point to know there must be more we should record. I asked if he knew of any other good lessons from NASA he could share and we agreed to talk again. The episode launched Season One ended with 10 episodes and plans for season two, we're underway. We texted a few more times. And then in July, I had an idea for what weighed my next episode could be I texted away, and he responded he was second need some time to recover and then we could talk. Five days later he texted again saying it was taking him longer to recover than expected. And I told him not to worry we had a few months easily before we need to record September 29 2021. I'm having coffee with Jenny and planning the next episodes for season two. I want to record an episode on navigating emotions and de escalation of conflict. And I remember Wade, I texted him to check in but the text bounce back I sent another which failed to that I read the previous texts we had his search just named by Google. It took a little more time to confirm but the world had lost way Krieger This was later confirmed by the Office of Inspector General. While thinking of the topic at the coffee shop, I was now confronted with emotions and change. I was sad for the loss of weight, and I began tearing up over coffee. While sitting there with Jenny. We are all humans full of emotions, ideas, hopes, dreams and fears. quality professionals are deployed in the workplace to help bring change. But what happens when that change rouses emotions and conflict? So what does emotional conflict look like? Sharing an example with me is a friend Bree.

Bree Cox: 3:01

I was fairly new in my job. And so I was a supervisor. And I was still like, probably not even a month in. So I'm still learning my job, let alone my employees jobs like I I had didn't know what they were doing. My employee made an honest mistake. Unfortunately, it caused a large amount of what we would call rework, product was bad stuff had to be redone. So my manager got involved. I was involved. And then the production manager was involved. And so you've got two different departments, three different levels of people involved. So my employee was, you know, really nervous, really scared to tell me about it. And I'm trying to reassure him like, you know, it's an honest mistake, you know, you were doing your job, you missed one detail. You know, it happens, sucks, but it happens. And then my manager comes down and just starts screaming his head off, like, doesn't ask questions doesn't try to understand this. The whole story just starts screaming his head off at me, at my employee, like, just in front of everyone. We're on a production floor. There's people everywhere, and he's just screaming at everyone. My first instinct is like, Okay, well, one that's never good to do that in front of people. Because now the entire department can see this, you know, one individual basically being singled out. It was just a really uncomfortable situation. And then that's when the production manager comes in. And then those two so him in my manager get into a screaming, right. They're yelling at each other. And then the plant manager comes down. And he stands there and he just observes and he's literally just silent, watching each other scream at each other. And then he walks away. At the end of the day. Nothing was really resolved. Like we still did the same thing. We We were going to do with the beginning, nothing changed. It accomplished nothing. And it was just really uncomfortable for everyone. And I just remember, like, that was my introduction to my job, like, this is what I get to deal with and handle. And I just remember my employee being like, beat down, he was really an employee. And it just really made him feel like crap and not want to, like bring attention, things like it was something where if he hadn't told us about it, it might not have even been taught. But he was being honest. And hey, I missed this. And it's wrong, like we need to fix it. And so just that kind of involvement can make him less willing to do that again in the future. And so that was a big thing that really bothered me. And I remember going to my manager and just have straight up telling him that I lost respect for him as my manager, because of the way he treated all of us on the floor. And he eventually went down and apologized to my employees. He never said anything to me. But it was just one of those situations where, like, no one wanted to be in the emotions just got the best of everyone, because between the QA manager and the production manager, they were trying to be better than the other or be right. And then when the plant manager comes down and does nothing, it's like, okay, where, where do you stand? And why are you not participating or helping anything you're just observing?

Aaron Harmon: 6:28

Yeah, that's a crazy story. And I'm guessing that probably all of the conflicting parties had no real, obviously, skills and controlling those emotions and making something productive out of it.

Unknown: 6:42

Right. I mean, it was a problem that really could have been solved by asking a couple questions and making a decision. And I think, the anger and there's previous tension between the two managers, and that played a big role in it too, because there was just no moment to stop and discuss. It was just straight up. Let's just start yelling,

Aaron Harmon: 7:06

Get a wrestling ring. Yeah. Have attr? Do we train our quality professionals to navigate these? That is what this episode is about? Learning how to navigate emotional conflict and de escalation. And to help us with that is Joel Reinisch. Joel is an Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice, former Marine Police Officer detective and training crisis and hostage negotiations. Welcome to Inside Out quality, Joel. Hi. Thank you. So first, you tell us about yourself. Like how did you end up you had a career path in the military? And then you got into law enforcement now education, how that worked for you.

Joel Reinesch: 7:42

The winding road, I guess, is the best answer for you. Mitchell, South Dakota, born and raised, my father was a law enforcement officer for most of my formative years, you know, so I was, you know, born and raised on that, and Hill Street Blues and everything else, you know, in the 80s, for those old 80s capture nuts in your audience, so I mean, it's just something that I always wanted to do, you know, looked up to my father, um, you know, and just was something you know, like I said that that was was always an ambition of mine. Something else that he also was was a Marine, as well, too, or I guess once a Marine, always a Marine, but he was, he was a Vietnam, veteran to tours in Vietnam. So you know, that was also something else that I looked up to as well, too. I like I told you, I took the long, windy path. You know, I graduated from high school from Mitchell High School in 1995. I guess today they call them a gap year. But I guess I took gap years before gap years were cool. And actually didn't started Dakota Wesleyan until 1997 in the criminal justice program, really enjoyed my criminal justice classes, not so much my other classes and to be completely honest with you kind of spun my wheels for you know, a couple years here, and then decided that it was time to, to grow up and to be completely honest with you and move on. And August of 2001, signed to join the Marine Corps, signed up for the infantry in the Marine Corps. Two weeks later, September 11 happens, oh, boy, two weeks to the day. Um, and my mom called me up on the morning of September 11. And inside you call your recruiter and you tell him you're not come in and I will. And I called my recruiter and said, When can I go? You know, I mean, that kind of was the the feeling at that time, actually, the earliest they could get me out. I mean, I wasn't the only guy you know, who called the earliest that they could get me out was March of 2002. Originally I was going to do the full year in the delayed entry program and actually was going to finish was going to graduate college. But then, you know, that could get me on March 2002. So that's when I, that's when I went. So I went to college all the way up until that point, but then laughed about March 26 of 2002 for boot camp in San Diego, graduated from there in June of 2002. And graduated from the school of infantry in the west coast on September 13. of 2002. And then was assigned to Third Battalion, fourth Marines, which is in Twentynine Palms, California, which is literally in the middle of the Mojave Desert. There in California, it's about an hour away from Palm Springs, it's about two hours away from Las Vegas. Um, you know, kind of right smack dab there in the desert. I'm deployed with three, four, I'm in March of 2003. Actually, we deployed actually, we we left, February 1 2003, is when we actually got to Kuwait spent, oh, I don't know, four weeks, five weeks, maybe six weeks there in Kuwait and getting ready for the invasion. And then it was part of the the initial invasion into Iraq in 2003. Actually, that the the statue of Saddam Hussein that was torn down and in federal square there in the middle of Baghdad that that was us. Really, yup, I I was a block away, when it happened. Had no idea, the significance of it. Yeah, I had no clue that, you know, President Bush is watching it live on TV and in you know, that it's, it's, it's live back in the United States had no clue, you know, the head came off the statue, and they tied into the back of a truck, and they're driving down the street. And people are, you know, beating it with their, with their, with their shoes, which in the in their culture in the Muslim culture is actually like the worst, you know, like, the most degrading thing that you can do. And those that you're, you're lower than the dirt beneath my feet. So when you when you see people eating it with their shoes, that's actually you know, what it's depicting, and, yeah, and I'm, I'm standing there, and I hear the crowd, you know, the whole thing, and I see this whole thing happen, and, you know, but I mean, we're still in the middle of it. So you see it happening, but you're, you're paying attention, other things, and all of a sudden, this head comes bouncing down the road.

Unknown: 12:27

And had no idea you know, until I got home in June ish, July ish that year, um, you know, and one of my buddies just in passing was like, Hey, did you did you ever see that? And I'm like, Yeah, I was there. How did you see it? You know, and then it was it was at that point, but I kind of figured out that it was actually it was kind of a culturally significant event. So that was pretty cool. Wrapped up that deployment, came back, then redeploy it, again, essentially the same time frame the next year in 2004. In that deployment was spent in the all Assad had diva area, but we also were in Fallujah, for that initial invasion into Fallujah in 2004. After they had kidnapped and killed and murdered those United States, contractors on the streets of Felicia, we went in for that pretty significant chunk of our deployment online for that woman as well too, and then came back, got married to my wife, we're still married today have two kids, our son coy just turned 13 years old. Our daughter Emma has 10 going on 20. And then actually got out of the Marine Corps in actually December 25 of 2005 is actually when I finally separated from the Marine Corps out on terminal leave and stuff like that. Came back to Dakota Wesleyan University thought that maybe I didn't want to be a cop. I thought that maybe I wanted to be like an athletic director, work in sports in some way, shape, or form. That didn't take long probably about a year realize that law enforcement really is where my love was, it had always been there. I got hired with the Mitchell Police Department in May of 2007. I spent about the first year and a half as a patrol officer about the next five as a detective and my last five as a patrol sergeant and finished out my undergrad and completed my Masters while I was doing that, knowing that eventually I wanted to come teach at the higher ed level I I've done some adjunct teaching here at Dakota Wesleyan throughout that time and did a lot of teaching and training at the police department. During Mitchell. It was something I really liked to do. You know, so finish on my master's knowing that that was kind of wanting that to be my post retirement gig. But they they offered me a spot in 2018 Here in the criminal justice department DW that I just couldn't turn down. So I've been here since August 2018 and just have have loved every minute of it since

Aaron Harmon: 14:54

it had been a big transition going from Mitchell, South Dakota to California and San Diego and Then overtake Kuwait and Iraq. And you know, the

Unknown: 15:03

the firt. The first time I ever flew on a plane was the bootcamp to San Diego. You know, so that that was the first time I'd ever flown biggest city I'd probably been to was Minneapolis, three different times, you know, I mean, just really didn't really didn't get out of Mitchell or this this area, much, you know, traveled throughout the area quite a bit, just had never gone anywhere bigger than that. So definitely a culture shock. And I mean for it, you know, for anybody who joined the Marines, man, there's nothing like that first week of Marine Corps boot camp anyway. It doesn't matter how I've experienced I'm a world traveler, you are at that point, you're all the same level of scum at that point. You know, so, but yeah, I mean, definitely. And I, you know, man, I wouldn't, I wouldn't give up those years for anything. Loved the Marine Corps, in retrospect, loved my experiences in Iraq, obviously, when you're there, you would like to be home and vice versa, but certainly shaped who I am today, for better or worse. But you know, I think definitely for the better. But my goal in joining the Marines was, like I said, I mean, it was it was time to hit the reset button. And it was time to grow up. And it certainly did that. So I am eternally grateful for the Marine Corps. And, you know, the things that it taught me and the experiences that it gave me, certainly has made me I think the person that I am today, gave me some direction, certainly gave me life experiences and life skills that I've drawn back on a number of different times, personally, professionally, certainly, as a law enforcement officer on you know, and even you know, with my students here at Dakota Wesleyan just trying to pass on life experiences and things like that to them as well, too. So eternally grateful for what the Marine Corps has given me,

Aaron Harmon: 16:53

that sounds like a great experience. And the quality assurance professional side, we typically have a different path between going to college, finding out that science is really fun. And getting wrapped up in that and then eventually working our way into a company where we transitioned into the quality assurance world, we have a lot of jokes about being in QA, one of them is, when you're in QA, you sit alone at the lunch table. I had a co worker, really good friend, and he would say something along the lines of once you're in QA, your friends, I'll go away, something like that. But we end up in a lot of conflict. And unfortunately, typical college programs training you to get into science and quality assurance, do not touch and how to manage navigate conflict, especially when you have tensions rising, because things are changing in the workplace, etc. But law enforcement and the military, you probably see all kinds of conflict. Absolutely. Probably one of the big ones you would see I'm assuming in as a patrol officer, is when you get a I get domestic disturbance. How do you approach those situations when you have that kind of conflict occurring?

Unknown: 18:10

When you talk about like going to domestics, you know, and those sorts of things. I mean, those are always hairy anyway, because they're so emotionally charged. And sometimes you have victims that don't want to be victims and trying to cover for offenders or offenders who you know, I'm not going to jail and the fight is on for a while. I don't know if the statistics still hold true today. But you talk about domestics, domestics used to be the number one cop killer of law enforcement officers is responding to domestic assaults was the most dangerous call that you could go to, because they are so emotionally charged. Maybe using domestics as an example or just anything. The calmest had always prevails. And that's something that that I tell my kids here at Wesleyan, I tell them that all the time, people are calling you. Because something has gone bad in those situations. In many instances, you will be involved in the worst day people have ever had in their life. And they're, they're calling you to try to restore some order to it. And if you don't have your head about you, you can't do that. You're actually only going to make the situation worse. The number one rule of thumb for anything when you're talking about crisis negotiations, hostage negotiations, any of those things or just even dealing with stressful situations is you are paid to be the calmest head there. So whatever you need to do to train yourself, or remind yourself to that. That's like rule number one, in any of these types of instances for sure.

Aaron Harmon: 19:47

That's got to be a challenging thing to do. I've caught myself getting wrapped up where I don't know if it's like trying to protect my ego, or what it is but wanting to like as the person gets tense to like Brian To the challenge and meet them there.

Unknown: 20:01

Yes. And that that was something and I'm very open with my kids about this is that you, you, you have to check your ego at the door, even what you do with your quality, you know, and things like that. And what you know I do as a law enforcement officer or did as a law enforcement officer or as a Marine, definitely more in the law enforcement world is you have to check your ego at the door. You can't get into that, that back and forth. And those things, and there's a lot of times where you just need to get it and just swallow hard and move on. And I'm very open and honest with my kids that especially early on in my law enforcement career, that's something that I really struggled with, was being able to swallow hard, and maybe turning the other cheek. And if somebody challenged you to not challenge them back. That's definitely something that I had to learn I had to learn it the hard way. Is that sometimes to be that that calmer head, like I said, you just need to swallow hard, and just move on. But definitely, you know, when you're talking about that conflict and conflict resolution and things like that, you got to let the small stuff go, you can't have the petty comments, and you can't let other people's petty comments get to you. And you know, like you talk about egos in trying to match them and things like that, like that was the one thing that was hardest for me to do that once I kind of learned to manage that a little bit. And I think that some people would even be like, really, you'd like you learn to manage that, like I would hate to have seen you before. It was once you learn to kind of manage that. Definitely the the much more, much more productive you are in terms of dealing with those situations of conflict resolution or just conflict in general,

Aaron Harmon: 21:44

if you've got a scenario where you've got two people yelling, and you can tell that the tensions are there. You've got the calm part down there next steps you could do to help bring things back.

Unknown: 21:57

Yeah, absolutely. People want to be heard. Some of my additional training that I've done when I was when I was a law enforcement officer was a crisis negotiator as a hostage negotiator, critical incident stress, debriefing teams, love, you know, those those things as well too. But also de escalation techniques with like mentally ill individuals and things like that, which is a huge push in law enforcement right now. And that was one of the things that I was involved in when I was getting out. And one of the things that you learned, that they teach you is is that people want to be listened to, you have to actually actively listen to people and parroting back to them, like parrot like like parakeet like a bird. They regurgitate everything that you say to them, you know, that's what you need to do is you need to pare it back to people just be like, okay, hey, it sounds like what you're telling me is this, that's kind of a classic standby line, you know, that you use with people when you're trying to de escalate. And it shows them that you're actively listening to them. actively listening to people is a huge part of that. And to show them how you're doing that is to say, Okay, I hear what you're saying, it sounds like you're telling me this, in my reading, you're correctly and actually doing that to people, and showing them that actively listening, and, you know, verbally, you know, regurgitating back to them what they're saying, and paraphrasing it, in your own words actually does a lot in initially de escalating, whatever you've got going on. Now, obviously, you talk about people yelling back and forth at each other. If you get somebody who's preconditioned to yell, and that's just going to be, that's just going to be how it is. And that's how it is okay. But you know, nine times out of 10 just doing that act of listening and showing people that you're actively listening to them, makes great strides and starting to de escalate any of those situations.

Aaron Harmon: 23:51

That's, that's not the approach I've taken in the past. And I can tell you that

Unknown: 23:55

well, and it's not always the approach that I took, you know, in even, even today, sometimes it's not always the approach. I mean, that, that definitely, for me, that was the one thing that that I learned, the better you can get it that the more successful you are that the more easily in the more quickly, you're going to be able to de escalate any situation, hopefully with somebody who's thinking rationally. Now, you're talking about somebody who's suffering from a mental health crisis, you know, or something like that. Obviously, that throws a whole different wrench into the equation, right? Like if you have somebody who's not thinking rationally, it doesn't matter what you do. If you can't bring them back to center, or some people, it's just not possible to bring them back to center. But if you have rational thinking people, that is going to work for you more often than it's not just actively listening and showing them that you're actively listening and giving them the opportunity to even talk first. Again, putting your ego aside. Give them the opportunity to talk first

Aaron Harmon: 25:01

was talking to a friend of mine that worked in QA for quite a while. And I asked her, have you ever found yourself with this conflict happening in the workplace, and she told me about an example where an employee had done something wrong, came up to her and said, Hey, I did something wrong, they went and talk to the next person up the chain. And that person began arguing with another manager, and they got into a full on shouting match at each other, where everyone was watching them shout. And it turned into this awkward embarrassing moment in the workplace. And the unfortunate thing is, it sends a message that if you do something wrong, you're going to create a whole bunch of conflict, which is a terrible message to have, right? Like you want people to be open and transparent about these things. And so I'm trying to like get my head like if I was in that situation, so there they are, I got these two people now yelling, does there any like advantage to try to separate out the crowd the like, any tactics or techniques, or

Unknown: 26:02

if you can, good luck. Um, this is something that was not popular in the Marine Corps, but something that was very popular, you know, in law enforcement from like, a supervisory perspective is you you praise in public and you you criticize in private, in the Marine Corps, getting your butt chewed in, in public was, you know, that was the name of the game. We don't care about your feelings. Drill. Instructors don't care about your feelings, that salty, Gunny doesn't care about the feelings of that fear, or that lance corporal in that world, that doesn't really matter. But certainly in the law enforcement world, that was something you praise in public and you you criticize in private. So I mean, if there's any way that you can make that happen, that you know, like the example that you're throwing out there, you're you're past that, right? Like that. That was that like, that's, that's already not gonna happen. It already hasn't not happened. Yet, at that point is a third party, you know, and I mean, that that's what cops do, right? They get called to these situations where it's already gone to hell in a handbasket. And now you're being asked to come in there and step in. Now, the thing that law enforcement officers have to their advantage is they wear a uniform, and with that uniform comes in air of authority. So people already know that, okay, hey, the cops are here, the cop car just pulled up. And this uniformed police officers walking over this gun and badge and everything else. Typically, that itself will help to deescalate a situation, at least in South Dakota, you know, most of the time it does. I mean, I can't talk about Chicago anywhere else. If you don't have that benefit. Yeah, man, I mean, just just as the third party, at a minimum, you can walk in there and go, Hey, let's take this behind closed doors, and then go in there and try to mediate it. But who knows if that's going to work? Good. Good luck. It at least at the end of the day, you can say that you tried. But even in that situation, if you're going to come in as the third party? Yeah, you definitely got to be the calmest head. No, not pointing fingers, don't yell to people who are already yelling at each other. You just lean in and go, Hey, let's go do this behind closed doors, you got a lot of people paying attention to you here, let's go behind closed doors, or can we do this in a half hour, just get that, get that separation, and that opportunity for people to step back and take a breath. Most people once you get them out of the moment, if they have acted irrationally, they understand that they've acted irrationally, once you get them out of the moment. So I mean, anything that you can do to kind of break the cycle of what's happening there. You're not going to be wrong for doing so that isn't gonna make a difference? Well, it's going to depend, it's going to depend on the people and, and you know, whether or not you actually have any authority, either. When I

Aaron Harmon: 28:55

like that, when you said praise in public and criticize in private, then into medicine is the best medicine. So if you get if you know, you're gonna have something that could be something that creates some emotional conflict, saying, hey, I want to talk to you, but let's go back to his other space where there's no one else or something. Yeah, absolutely. So that you don't end up having something happened, right, where everyone else is hanging out?

Unknown: 29:16

Yep. Absolutely. And I mean, especially when you're talking about your setting, like you're probably dealing with people who are professionals, right. I mean, there are people who are working their career, likely have some level of education or have some sort of equity built into their career or in their company. They don't want to be treated like a lance corporal. You know, they, they don't want to be treated like a like a PFC. Reinisch Yeah, you you you should, if that's your job, to call people, quote, unquote, to the man on those things. You should have the word with all around you to to understand that, hey, these are professionals that I'm dealing with and I can't treat them like they're some 18 year old college. Do I need to I need to treat them with with some level of professionalism here, it doesn't mean that you can't correct them. But certainly the way that you would work with them or treat them or deal with them certainly would be different. Like I said, if you're a lance corporal in the Marine Corps, what I have found, certainly as a supervisor, as a law enforcement officer, you know, it's my job, if somebody comes to make a complaint against one of my officers, it's my job to deal with my officer in that situation, whether they've done something right, or whether they've done something wrong. Or maybe they did something, right, that maybe had you handled it this way, instead of doing it this way, you know, maybe it would have been better. But yeah, in private, behind closed doors professionally, and don't beat around the bush, if you're somebody who's got to correct somebody, don't dance around it. Um, I drill into my kids heads empathy, from a law enforcement perspective, you're dealing with somebody on a criminal matter, you know, or anything else, you you should treat them how you would want to be treated. Now, you can't do that 10 times out of 10. But certainly eight times or nine times out of 10, you can write to try to have that empathy in there. Well, same deal. If you were the subordinate, and you got called into your supervisors office, do you? Do you want me to beat around the bush? Or do you just want me to rip the bandage off. And I found that that ripping the bandage off, but doing so as as professionally as possible is definitely the best policy.

Aaron Harmon: 31:30

So got the scenario where I observe somebody doing something that I know, is not where we need to be from a quality perspective for some reason. First of all, making sure there's no one around or I can like, kind of isolate them a little bit. Be calm, say, Hey, I observe this, which doesn't line up with our procedure. That's an example. So I'm calling it out, and then giving them a chance to talk. And then listen to them.

Unknown: 31:58

Yep. Or even depending on the situation. One example that I can give you is, I had an officer who pulled the lady over, pulls her over failed to stop at a stop sign is what it was. I've seen the in car cameras clearly didn't stop for the stop sign. It's a good stop, pulls her over, goes and walks up to the car. Hey, this is who I am. This is the reason I pulled you over isn't a reason why you didn't stop. You know what? No, I actually I thought I did. Okay, fair enough. You have a driver's license registration proof of insurance? Yep, I do. Here you go, goes back to his car, writes her an actual citation for failed to stop at a stop sign, which certainly is within his right to do. Writer a citation, goes back up to the car, gives her back on information and says, hey, here you go. Here's your driver's license, your registration, your proof of insurance. I've issued you a citation today for failure stop at a stop sign. You have two options, either pay the fine by this date, or if you wish to contest this ticket. This is your court date, you know, to to come to court to do that. I need you to sign that the sign the ticket. And she's like, I'm not signing it. And he was put you got to? And she goes, No, I don't. And he's like, Yeah, you do. And you know, and now all of a sudden, you're you're into this back and forth of Yes, er, no, I'm not. Yes, you're no, I'm not. And he finally says, look, like if you don't sign this, I'm taking you to jail, you know, and I'm paraphrasing here, but he was very professional. But he's like, Hey, if you don't sign it, I'm taking you to jail. And she's like, whoa, what? Third for not stopping at a stop sign? You're telling me that you're going to take me to jail now? Are you? Are you kidding me. And she ends up signing the ticket, you know, essentially under protest. And then of course, comes down to the police department to file a complaint. So I call the officer and I download the body camera and watch the whole thing. And there was nothing that he did. That was outside of the scope of policy. He wasn't even wrong and telling her that if she didn't sign the ticket, that she would have to go to jail. He's not even wrong and telling her that that's actually what happens because what you're signing is not an admission of guilt. It's signing that you agree that I'm either going to pay the fine by this date, or I'm going to come to court and I'm going to contest this ticket. It's essentially a promise to appears all your signing. She didn't see it that way. She saw it as holy crap, I'm going to jail because I ran a stop sign that I don't even think I did. So I hear her out. And I just explained to her I say hey, actually, you know what signing the ticket actually does. It's it's a promise to appear. You're either promising to appear or you're saying you're going to you're going to do this and she goes well, Jesus had had I known that. I just would have signed the damn ticket right away. And I'm like, Yep, I get it. And I will talk to our officer about that. And I talked to our officer and the first thing I said said was I go, Hey, man, you did nothing wrong. Okay, so like, immediately I've already de escalated anything that I'm going to have with this, right? And I'm like, Hey, man, just so you know, you've done nothing wrong. That being said, Did you consider this? And he's like, You know what? I guess I thought I explained that to her. But you're right, I guess I guess I didn't. You can get into a situation, especially as a supervisor, or as a law enforcement officer, as a professional, that you know, your job so well, that you know what it means to sign the citation. You just assume that she does as well, too. And I think that that's what happened with this. He's like, geez, you know, I guess I didn't even think to explain all that to her. You know, I just assumed, you know, where I've done this 100 times, um, you know, I just thought that it was common. And I'm like, Yeah, well, okay. But you know, now next time, you know, in the future, he's like, Yep, totally get it. Okay. So I've just killed two birds with one stone, I've effectively supervised my officer to be like, hey, in the future, you might want to keep this in mind. And I've also appeased our citizenry as well, too. He talked to his officer, I won, okay, like I want on this. That officer got talked to that, you know, one day, she still got her ticket, she still had to pay your fine. You know, and, and no, no, no harm, no foul with the officer. And plus, he learned better for the next time around. It wasn't that he was unprofessional. He was professional with her. He didn't like I said, he did nothing wrong via the policy. But I gave him an opportunity to tell his side. And once he told the side, I said, Okay, fair enough. Did you consider this? You know what, no, I didn't. Well, then I also got my part out as well, too. So it was a learning experience for everybody. Had I brought him into my office and just been like, dude, what, why don't you just tell her right away? You know, that if you if you sign this, this is what this means? Why didn't you tell her that? You know, had I done that? I'm setting myself up, I'm actually escalating the situation. But I gave him an opportunity to tell his side of the story. And then I'm like, okay, consider this side of it. He's like, Yep, I totally get it. I accomplish the same goal. I just did it around about way to get there that that left, everybody feeling good. Most of the time, all people want to hear is that you're sorry, whether you're right or whether you're wrong. People just want to hear the words, I'm sorry, come out of your mouth. And that's something that I learned, the longer that I was in law enforcement had to have to deal with those types of things. It's not I'm sorry, that I'm apologizing to you that I've done something wrong. And even just be? Well, I'm sorry that you know that you had such a negative experience with us today. They even hear that last part, they heard the front part. And that's all that man. It's really word games, while still being sincere. Like, I'm certainly not saying, you know, pull the wool over people's eyes or anything like that. I'm certainly or mislead them. I'm absolutely not saying that. That's last thing you want to do. That understanding what people want to hear. And giving it to them? How you would want it yourself are two very important ways to do that.

Aaron Harmon: 38:07

And it sounds like that's the empathy part.

Unknown: 38:09

It is. Yeah, it is. Yeah. In my, my kids, like, every time I say empathy, like they just giggle, you know, like, they know, what's my word? The E word, you know, is what it is. So yeah, my my kids, we giggle about it all the time. But I mean, seriously, my wife would roll her eyes, you'd be like empathy. And Joel really, but I mean, really, I mean, that's, that's the key to so many different things, is just trying to bring yourself to their level, and relate to them, and treat them how you think that they probably want to be treated, or how you would like to be treated. That is such a huge part, certainly in law enforcement, talking about de escalation techniques, and those sorts of things, too. I mean, it just is. It's so important. And it's different than sympathy. There's a difference between sympathy and empathy. Some people want to be felt sorry for which is sympathy. But other people find that patronizing. But nobody, nobody finds empathy as being patronizing. Nobody sees it that way, or at least not rational thinking people. So there's definitely a difference between sympathy and empathy. But if you if you can keep that empathy in the forefront of your mind, that's going to get you out of more of these situations are going to is going to make them successful. More times than unsuccessful. captured here

Aaron Harmon: 39:27

is first of all prevention. So you got the privacy. You got the Hey, no, tell me what's going on.

Unknown: 39:34

Perspective. Sure. Tell me what you're thinking. Yeah.

Aaron Harmon: 39:38

And then the listening, the parroting so you show that you're listening? Yep. And then doing that in a way that shows empathy? Absolutely. I feel like it'd be pretty hard to still be upset with someone that was doing that. Well.

Unknown: 39:50

It would be Yeah, it would be like I said, Do you have somebody who's not thinking rationally? Look, man, it doesn't matter what you're going to do. Right? If they're not, they're not thinking rationally. But yes, rational thinking people, hopefully, they may not agree with you. But hopefully they at least understand you and where you're coming from. We don't have to agree at the end of the day, but you still got to respect it. And certainly if I'm your supervisor, you better respect it. I also need to act in a way that should Garner that respect as well to

Aaron Harmon: 40:24

then at the end, if necessary, you can throw in

Unknown: 40:27

I'm sorry. Yeah. In some way, shape or form. Yeah.

Aaron Harmon: 40:32

And then you add a better place. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you, Joel.

Unknown: 40:39

This is really good. Yeah, absolutely.

Aaron Harmon: 40:42

Thank you for listening. This is the end of season two. I look forward to bringing you season three. After more than 21 years of service at the NASA OIG and 30 years in law enforcement Special Agent way Krieger died on August 21 2020. Following a brief illness. Wade's work at the NASA OIG Kennedy Space Center in Florida included handling numerous highly successful white collar criminal and civil investigations to include product substitution, theft of trade secrets, Grant fraud, lease fraud, conflicts of interest, conspiracy, embezzlement, theft, and various other procurement related matters. Wade was a highly skilled marksman and firearms instructor. He served as regular guest instructor at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers product substitution courses since 2008 and was a 2018 graduate of the FBI National Academy class 276. Prior to joining NASA OIG Wade was a special agent with the Air Force Office of Special Investigations AF OSI, which he joined in 1989 after graduating from Memphis State University and receiving a US Air Force commission via Air Force ROTC. while on active duty Wade served tours in Arkansas, Guam, Panama and Florida. He commanded the Panama Jack Task Force, a unique tri service counter smuggling unit based in the Republic of Panama from 1993 to 1995. He also served as commander of afosr detachment for 19 Tyndale Air Force Base, Florida from 1995 to 1998. In 1999, way transition from active duty and became a reserve AF OSI officer to join NASA OIG shortly after, Wade was a graduate of the US Air Force Command and Staff College and retired from the Air Force Reserve in 2010. As Lieutenant Colonel, way to survive by its wife, Brenda, his daughter, Sidney and two sons, Joseph and Aaron. Thank you, Wade for helping me start this podcast. And all you done for our country. We hope you enjoyed this episode. This is brought to you thanks for South Dakota biotech Association. If you have a story you'd like us to explore and share, let us know by visiting www. SD bio.org. Also, if you live in the Sioux Falls area, check out QUIBIT a local Quality Assurance Professionals Network. You can find out more about QUIBIT by clicking on the link on our website too. Thanks for listening