#247 Brett Malinowski - How to Beat The YouTube Algorithm in 2024

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Think you know what it takes to grow on YouTube?

Brett Malinowski is about to flip the script and show you the strategies behind explosive channel growth that even seasoned creators often overlook.

Brett has spent years perfecting a system that turns every upload into a viral video.

In this episode of the Kickoff Sessions podcast, Brett breaks down how to reverse-engineer content for maximum impact, from optimizing view duration to creating clickable thumbnails that grab attention.

Brett shares the exact psychology behind video retention, how he carefully crafts his titles and thumbnails for growth, and why it’s essential to stay ahead of trends. We also cover the harsh reality of content creation, including the challenges most creators face in retaining audiences and scaling a channel effectively.

If you’re serious about growing your own YouTube channel or turning your content into a full-blown business, this episode is for you.

Hit that like button and drop a comment with your thoughts on the future of YouTube growth, subscribe for more.


Connect with Brett
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheBrettWay

My Socials:
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/darrenlee.ks
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/darren-lee1

(00:00) Preview and Intro
(01:08) Creating the Perfect Youtube Video
(04:00) Why You Should Focus on Your Audience
(06:47) How to Find Your Niche
(10:22) How to Craft Thumbnails and Titles
(16:13) How Thumbnails and Titles Impact Growth
(20:56) Adjusting Titles Based on Audience Response
(30:16) The Importance of Strong Openings
(34:32) How to Pace Your Videos
(40:07) Three Ways to Use AI for Content Business
(45:01) Reverse Engineering Business from Content
(47:09) Alex Hormozi's Content Strategy
(52:16) The Benefits of Creating Multiple Channels
(56:28) Positioning Offers for Different Audience Segments
(59:41) High-Ticket vs. Low-Ticket Pricing Strategies
(01:07:02) Playing the Game at the Highest Level
(01:10:45) Cross-Platform Audience Engagement
(01:16:20) Jumping on Trends in Web3 and AI
(01:32:17) Brett’s Thoughts on Online Courses

Chapters

• 0:00 Creating High-Quality Content for YouTube
• 2:54 Crafting YouTube Content for Max Impact
• 8:06 Optimizing YouTube Content Strategy
• 15:23 Optimizing YouTube Titles and Thumbnails
• 23:04 Creating Sequential YouTube Content Journeys
• 27:12 Crafting Impactful Video Content Strategy
• 33:29 Crafting Engaging YouTube Content Strategies
• 41:18 Secrets to Podcast Growth and Monetization
• 46:00 Content Strategy for Private Equity Success
• 56:15 Optimizing Offer Strategy for Audience Growth
• 1:04:19 Building Personal Brand Authenticity and Strategy
• 1:16:06 Navigating Trends in Content Creation
• 1:23:39 Content Business Strategy and Growth
• 1:32:17 Restoring Trust in Online Courses
• 1:35:20 Revolutionizing Online Education Standards

Transcript

Brett: 0:00

The best thing to do is always position something as new, because it's the psychology principle of urgency, and we need them to feel like it's important to watch this video now, because if not, they're going to miss out. It's comparing live every single week anyone who's made a video on this topic and who made the best one, and so it's very zero sum in that regard. Dating, making money, like productivity these are all like universal things that can better your life, and so they're the biggest markets. And that's how Iman went to $200,000 to $5 million, because he started giving general life advice to young men. But for Mosey, he's the best example.

Brett: 0:32

He was so intentional with this. He wanted to start a private equity firm. The problem with private equity what you need is deal flow, and so his whole content thesis was I'm going to make content for entrepreneurs who are making $300,000. I'm going to teach them how to get to $3 million, like I did. When they do make $3 million, they're going to come to me and let me invest in their company, and I'm going to help them go from $3 to $30 million, and we're all going to win.

Darren: 0:54

Before we start this video, I have one small favor to ask of you. If you've been enjoying the US tour so far and all the effort we put into making these videos as best as possible for you, please hit the subscribe button down below so we can help more people every single week.

Brett: 1:08

Thank you, youtube is like not is a non-linear game where, like a 20 better thumbnail, 30 better thumbnail can result in 500 times more views, and so it's like you just have to stack every single edge in your favor. And so that was just another edge where I'm like, okay, I need to maximize average view duration. And if I look at my retention curves on YouTube and I see that everyone is leaving at the six minute mark because we started repeating ourselves or we had a little side comment or we talked about how hard it was to get this together and we're so glad that we're here together. That's not serving the viewer. It's like no one cares about that.

Brett: 1:45

So cut that out and then order everything in the most impactful way. Where they have the right context, they can learn in the right order, they understand what they're learning, they understand why it's important for them and, if they stay, what they're going to get out of it. And then teach them everything in order and put the work on our shoulders to make sure they have the best viewing experience so they can fully understand this. And so view duration and people's retention is the most important thing. Like if you say one sentence or one paragraph that people aren't interested in, they leave. That kills your performance on youtube. The podcast doesn't get pushed and so I'm sitting there for like an eight hour day. I have my editor cut the first version and then I'll literally spend eight hours to make sure it's the perfect amount of information. I'll cut out 30 to 40% of the conversation. I'll make sure everything's in the right order. That, I feel like, is the best viewing experience for this conversation.

Darren: 2:35

How do you determine what goes in and what doesn't go in with that what in the podcast? Yeah, so like, let's say, cause like podcasts are like, at the end of the day it's like person to person, right, and we want to keep it educational, entertaining and keep that average view duration up. But how do you determine what's what's that? It doesn't fit outside the context of the content yeah.

Brett: 2:54

So before I even choose a guest, I try to come up with that one sentence on like what will people say to their friend if they were going to take the link and share it to them. They're going to send them the link and they're going to say one sentence on why they should watch it. I try to pick in my mind what is that sentence going to be? Why would someone watch this guest if I had him on my podcast? And then that's how I anchor all of my decisions for questions that I'm going to ask.

Brett: 3:15

So I don't prepare, I don't like get a list of questions or do research on the person. I just pick that one outcome that I think that people are going to get from watching this episode and ask all my questions around that with different like analogies. So I can be like what is your marketing strategy? Who have you seen use this? How did you actually decide the product and there's go really straightforward through the business in order, and so I picked that ahead of time and then that kind of helps guide everything from there.

Darren: 3:41

So, basically, you're reverse engineering it to the point that you're only you're cutting out all the fluff, and I've noticed that in your content because it's less personal stories. You're not sharing less, not sharing more personal stories. However, do you still have like storytelling components, because you're really big on storytelling, so around that so this is what I mean by your.

Brett: 4:00

it's called a personal brand, but it's not about you, especially in educational content on YouTube. It's literally not about you. I am trying to make the best piece of content that will apply to as many people's businesses, where they can immediately take what I said and implement it and see an outcome in their life. That is all I'm thinking about, because that is what's actually valuable to people. Valuable to people and so if I sit here talking about myself or telling stories about myself, I don't think that's going to be, as, unless there's a lesson imprinted through that story where I'm showing vulnerability and like making the person feel good because I have gone through something hard that they're currently going through, I don't think it's a good idea to just talk about yourself or talk about subjective things. I'm like you are. You are. I chose this guest because he's going to help them accomplish one thing in their business. We're not going to talk about subjective things. I'm like I chose this guest because he's going to help them accomplish one thing in their business. We're not going to talk about anything that is not helping them get that one outcome, and we're going to make it as tight as possible and I'm only going to include stuff that's fresh.

Brett: 4:55

I consume YouTube four to five hours a day. I scan all of the other people in my niche all the time, every single day, and it's just like my natural joy, like I just like doing it. And so I have watched a piece of content and I had seen someone say the same topic before. I will literally cut that out because it's not fresh, it's not a new perspective and it's wasted time because I'm assuming other people that watch this are also watching those pieces of content. And so for YouTube, the number one focus is A what is that one line outcome? And B is this a fresh perspective that people can take and they feel?

Darren: 5:28

like it's new. How have you found basically the space developing for, for educational content in general, like do you think that it's basically becoming as very repeatable as you said? Like is it hard to find that unique angle and unique space now for you?

Brett: 5:42

no, you can make anything like. You can have a fresh take on anything. The problem is everyone's copying each other. They'll see a video from Iman or someone as big in the space and just copy the title thumbnail, or they'll copy the exact same points and then wonder why it's not working.

Brett: 5:55

I don't understand the underlying ether of why that video was exciting for people and why it got spread around, and so I don't think anything's changed other than the fact that YouTube has gotten so good at sending your video to the exact amount of people who are interested in that topic, so like it's to the point where you can literally choose how many views you're going to get on YouTube, like assuming. I always have the perspective that it's not about the skills that you have. It's not about how good you are editing as far as like how, if you know every effect and every way to edit, it's all about taste making and your flow and how you're actually able to convey this concept, and so it's like how, like it's literally your taste. So on youtube, you can literally, in my opinion, I know how to make a good video. I know the science of flow, I know the science of good editing, pacing, storytelling, all of it. I have all the baseline skills, and so then, once you have that down, a lot of other people do too.

Brett: 6:47

But you can objectively choose a market to go into and YouTube has gotten so good at. Basically, if I use the word software on YouTube in my videos, they're only going to show that video to people who have been showing interest in software. And so then I can just look at how many views are the average software videos getting this week, and then that's my marker for success. Okay, the most popular software video that had the word SaaS or software in the title got 100,000 views. The second one got 70,000. So that means if I post a video on software next week, my goal is to get 100,000 views because I want the number one video for that topic and that's my upper limit for success. And so you can literally choose how many views you get by being conscious of what market you're playing in. So YouTube is like micro markets based off search terms.

Darren: 7:32

Now, this is crazy, by the way, because I've learned so much of this from you, specifically, like I've literally watched your videos and change and specifically like titles and software or whatever that is, and the reason being is because people are can be super overly specific with their title and the tam short and short insurance. Yeah, so explain, like how you think about that, because I definitely shot myself in the foot with that and I've reverse engineered it. But my fear is, if I'm too open with this title like basically like how to make money online that could mean fucking anything.

Brett: 8:00

It's a balance, okay, it's an art form, like you have to really choose, and so it's like some people. I have a girl who's in my coaching program and she she was like laura. Laura costa, no way, yeah.

Brett: 8:10

So she is linked in linkedin and so it's like best mates, allure, literally literally spent, like last week, with her yeah, so she is like literally the number one content creator for the word linkedin, yeah, and she just consumes that whole market, like for the word linkedin, yeah, and she just consumes that whole market, like if, for the word linkedin she is number one.

Brett: 8:25

Twenty thirty thousand views per video that's the whole search volume and so she feels the pressure to like broaden out and go bigger. But it's like, objectively, you are like the best creator, so why would you want to switch? You are doing what everybody wishes they could do in your niche, but you feel the pressure to get more and more views and so it's really important to a pick the strategy. I think everyone fundamentally does not put enough time in thinking through their strategy. Like if your business is teaching people LinkedIn and you're getting the most views on LinkedIn, just keep dominating it while you have it. But if you want to go broader, then you're playing in just different keywords and so, for the language that you're talking about, this is what I always use my example of, like a newsletter, video or a one-person business. Those are both the same thing.

Brett: 9:05

Such a good example yeah, one-person business or a newsletter the exact same thing, but the way you're framing those words on the title and thumbnail to get someone to actually click. Most people know what a newsletter is. They've already made the mental decision that they don't want to start a newsletter. It's old, they've tried it, it's hard, whatever tried it it's hard whatever.

Brett: 9:24

so they'll never click on that video because it's not new to them.

Brett: 9:25

But if I open up the language slightly and say it's a one-person business, not only does that feel achievable, because you don't need to build a whole team or raise all this money, but it's also new and exciting without really giving away what it is, and so people will at least be curious to give you the click, and so that's really important.

Brett: 9:39

Obviously, you don't want to say how to make ten10,000 a month with a new business model, right? That will be a little too broad, and so this is where the thumbnail is really subtle for that video, because I have the Beehive logo, I have a Reddit logo and I have another newsletter tool logo, and so anyone who was interested in newsletter, who's in the world of newsletters, could see that and know it's for them. The world of newsletters could see that and know it's for them, while simultaneously, people that are a little less educated on the industry are just just open, like it could be anything for them so it won't deter them in that way in that regard, correct, okay, so this is so fucking good man, I knew this is gonna go but I will say also that is only important for the click.

Brett: 10:22

The next most important thing is the first set of words you're saying in the video. Okay, because we'll get to that. Yeah, because there's so much in this already.

Darren: 10:30

So, looking at someone like lara and it's specifically around linkedin, building a personal brand on linkedin if she was to remove the linkedin word from there and go personal brand, does she then fall into a category of, let's say, like dan cole, all these bigger guys?

Brett: 10:45

personal brand is a small, even smaller. So personal brand I would say you get. If you make the best video, you'll get 30 000 views on average per week. And just so you know on how youtube works, it's be you're indexing against your competitors on like, let's just say, every monday for the week, for that search term. You're going to go up against anyone who posts a video with this keyword in the title.

Brett: 11:06

So you make a video on personal brand, I make a video on personal brand, she makes a video on personal brand.

Brett: 11:10

Then youtube is just going to compare my ctr and average iteration to your ctr and average iteration. So it's not like if I get eight percent and a five minute average iteration, I'm just going to match. This video is going to get a million views every time. It's comparing live every single week. Anyone who's made a video on this topic and who made the best one and so it's very zero sum in that regard like the best video will get 80 in the views, the next one will get like 15 and the next one will get five, and so youtube just wants to serve the best piece of content and so they index it on the search term and then compare each week so you can make your best video ever on a topic your best video but then iman makes a video on the same topic and his is just slightly better and you're going to get no views. You're going to get a 10 out of 10 and wonder why but he won't.

Darren: 11:55

So let's just, I want to go into a deeper example. So personal branding linkedin. We run a bunch of podcasts that are super specific, like it could be like hr or payroll, okay, and I see that search volume being incredibly low, okay. So in that regard, let's say, if it is like an email that makes a video on hr, he's still going to get a thousand views because it's only a small market. Is that the way you're describing it?

Brett: 12:18

yeah, so this is everything I'm going to give you advice on is in a vacuum, but there's so many variables that apply that they're going to play off of each other, and so the best way to increase, increase your click-through rate is to get anyone who watched your last video to watch your next one, and so he'll have that built-up audience that's just going to watch. His core audience, that's going to watch every video, anything, yeah, but it's going to. In relation to his average video, it'll be a huge flop, but in relation to a video that you might post, it gets 2 000. He'll probably get at least 50 000 just because of that built-up fan base, but he'll probably chip away at that. Those people, the viewer satisfaction of those people will probably lower and they might not watch his next one because it's out of the consistent format that they're used to okay.

Darren: 12:58

So on those statistics or on the metrics, I spoke in noah morris and, uh, noah was saying that, like, a lot of the metrics that you see on youtube are not the ones that they're utilizing, so they're doing their own calculations. Underneath on the back end he was kind of talking shit about ctr. He was saying that's not a good indicator and I've seen you speak about that. What's your take on? Like? What metrics should you be viewing and analyzing?

Brett: 13:20

I mean objectively, it's one of the most important is click-through rate. But it's not again, everything's not in a vacuum. So, like I said, it's comparing against your performance of a video compared to another video in the same category, and so that's why, people, what he's saying is you can't just be like an 8% click-through rate means you're going to go viral, because it's way more complex than that, and what he's saying by what you can't see is you can't see other people's metrics at the same time. And so I do think it's click through rate, average view duration, watch time, which is the multiplication of the two, and then shares. I think those are the most important. Like, how many people are watching this video, having such a crazy experience? They're hitting share and then sending that link. So for me to maximize that, I'll literally put a pinned comment on the top of my comment section, be like thank you so much, show gratitude, thank you so much for watching this video. I really hope it was valuable. I put a lot of effort into it and I really appreciate you being here.

Brett: 14:10

If you have a friend that you think this could help, please send it to them, and I put my share link so I hit share, copy the share link specifically and put that there in hopes that 10, 20, 30 people copy that link and send it to their friend to maximize shares. And so this is what I was saying earlier before we start recording it's all about maximizing edges. You just need little edges that are going to bump you up. 0.1, 0.2% click-through rate, little extra 20 seconds of average view duration because you didn't bore them by saying so glad that we're here and got this to happen. Wasting just 10 seconds could be the difference between my podcast getting recommended or chris williamson's podcast getting recommended today, and so I'm thinking through every little detail to maximize and optimize each individual metric. So overall, there's a some total advantage over my competitors on youtube, and so click the rate matters. So I'm using thumbnail testcom and I'm testing four titles every hour, 20 times a week sorry, who's who's?

Darren: 15:09

okay, I wanted to bring this up. I, I have fucking vid iq in the back and click on your videos. You have 30 titles that are in record. Bear in mind, some of them don't even show. You've 30. You've around 9 10 different visible thumbnails that I've seen. How do you, how do you come up with them? How do you change them? Who changes them?

Brett: 15:29

everything you see on my channel is me, except for the person who cuts the first version of the podcast. So my girlfriend is a graphic designer. She makes my thumbnails but she doesn't have the mind for it right. There's like the graphic designers to just move. She just moves the hands where I'm sitting, sitting there, like put this here, do it this way, try this word, and so if you're doing podcasts where texts are really heavy on the thumbnail, it's all about you only have like four words, and so it's like those four words are do or die on the interest, and no matter how good I get at this game, I'm never going to. A lot of times I'll get it right in the first try, but 50 of the time it's the third try that I have, and so I am just coming up with 30 on a like notion doc.

Brett: 16:13

There's 30 different titles and you're just trying to find different ways of positioning this person. So, like you said on my podcast, no one knows who these people are, and so I kind of have to brand them as like what is unique and special about them? But the way you you can frame a person, there's infinite possibilities, and so it's like starter story. Well, they found the word the underdog works really well. So they're like the underdog who went from zero to $2 million with a business anyone can do. Or mine is going to be like Andrew Bustamante is the best one because everyone calls him the CIA spy, because they're taking the brand association from the cia or the the man. Did you use that?

Darren: 16:44

in that instance. Yeah, of course. So you leverage what's what's basically been working in that regard, because there's also another woman as well that has like cia spy as well for her videos so.

Brett: 16:55

So that isn't necessarily just because I copied other people stand on the shoulders.

Brett: 16:58

I'm all about copying other people. Don't get me wrong. Like I'm not fundamentally against that, but that is just just because, fundamentally, cia is a bigger brand than his name, and so you shouldn't be putting people's faces in a thumbnail if people don't know who they are or if their face isn't recognized. But you do, though I do for them because I brand them and the word is the outcome, and so I'm using a different example for this. So you could see a thumbnail from Jordan Welch, and it's him and then these two guys in the thumbnail I was only giving this advice to someone yesterday, so they copied it, but no one knows their face and no one knows their guests face, and so I'm saying it doesn't work. You can't just copy that thumbnail, because the format of a car with a million dollars and then two people works. The reason that worked is because both of those two people in that instance had brand recognition on the YouTube platform. Specifically, you can get a famous person that's famous on a different platform and no one on YouTube knows who that person is, so their face isn't adding to the thumbnail, and so that's really important to understand. But you're testing all these different options because you don't know what's actually going to resonate.

Brett: 18:00

And so when I say you can copy, look for titles and thumbnails thumbnails that did really well, like on an outlier score, on view stats but at the same time don't just take that at blank value, just or at face value. Understand that it's because the way they, the language they used, was simple to understand. It was really clear. So I love my girlfriend because I can just, I'll literally just like, every like four hours, I'll just like, with no context, I'll just say a title very broadly. I'm like the man that can make anyone go viral and I look at her and she's like yep, that hits, like there's no like objective reality other than the fact that she understood it very simply and it was clear on what you would get out of that podcast, and so that again, that is an art form of like it needs to be under 50 characters, because anything over than that gets cut off on mobile. Yeah, exactly so. It's like you have 50 characters and there is one objectively, there is one best way to frame this person and how are we going to get there?

Brett: 18:58

And so I'm writing out 30 and then typically the first one, like the first title I come up with. There's one piece of it I like. Oh, I like how he's the social media expert Okay, so I'm going to start with that. The social media expert who can make anyone go viral Hmm, okay, that might be a little too cliche. Then the social media expert who made $10,000 with zero followers Ooh, that feels more achievable. I like the zero followers angle. And I'm finding all of these different angles until I just get shorter and shorter and on the 30th, around the 30th one, it's like that's perfect, and then I just choose the four best, throw it in the thumbnail test and then let them cycle through every hour.

Darren: 19:31

So when you say, throw them in a thumbnail test, does that mean that they rotate naturally?

Brett: 19:35

So ThumbnailTestcom is probably the best. I've used TubeBuddy. I've used the YouTube native platform. One. Thumbna platform one thumbnail.

Brett: 19:51

Testcom is the best because it shows you it actually shows you shares, comments, average view duration times, click-through rate per title and thumbnail. And then it also lets you test titles, thumbnails plus the combination of thumbnails and titles, every hour automatically, and so I can just put 20 in there the night before and set it to hourly for two days, and then it will just change it every hour and then give you the specific data. So it's, but it's only like 30 bucks a month, so it's by far the best so when do you know that it's hit?

Darren: 20:12

because, for in my instance, I changed titles quite a lot and success leaves clues in retrospect. If I look at my graph on vid iq, I can see that, like all right if I didn't change it from here, it has made a jump. So is there some sort of model on the back end of that that determines what's a winner and it picks the best one?

Brett: 20:30

yeah. So any incremental increase is a win and that's why, like, that's why you see I'm changing it 20 times. It's because if I see on the, so first you have to have a baseline for your channel like what is generally, like what is my core audience. On the first few hours it's like seven and a half percent or up. It's like the average for my channel on a podcast for the first year, yes, for the first day. And so if it's below seven percent in the first day, I fucked up objectively.

Brett: 20:56

So I'm fighting for my life. Getting like calling my girlfriend, like you have to cancel your lunch plans, get here right now. It's like a priority. You know she lives an amazing life. She doesn't work. This is her only job is thumbnails. Okay, she's not working very hard, but she knows that it's a priority and so if it's under seven percent, my baseline is what I call it then I am like my whole day is only focused on making sure I get this above seven and a half percent right now.

Brett: 21:20

Then the next day, day two, since it's less of your core audience, kind of just lingering, any incremental increase is a win. But then you're seeing, okay, like today, my most recent podcast when it was me talking, the last thing I changed, I think I went from no BS advice that will help you grow on YouTube and then I changed it to no BS advice that will blow up your business. That blow up your business was a half percent increase. Okay, now it's no BS YouTube advice that will blow up your business. Now, okay, maybe YouTube advice is too limiting.

Brett: 21:54

So it's no BS social media advice that will blow up your business. No BS content advice that will blow up your business. No BS YouTube advice that will blow up your business. Okay, social media advice one. And so I'm just testing these little concepts, because social media content and YouTube are communicating the same thing, but YouTube might've been too narrow, siphoning me out, like we said earlier. So I tried social media in that one, and so you're testing the little nuances of the language to make sure it appeals to the broadest set of people, and I'm always using a fifth grade.

Darren: 22:30

You can use a readability score. You always want to be fifth grader under for readability. Yeah, that's awesome, man. I use that for linkedin instagram. No matter what I'm doing is just writing super simple. Just be clear, not clever. What do you think about guys who don't do those changes? So you notice the outlier channels like, not like mr beast and stuff, but the og like fitness influencers who just throw it up, fold up their abs, move on with their days? Like, how do you think YouTube has changed so much of this? Because, like, the way you're talking is like it's so far into so many people, even to me to some degree. You know this is not known in the space.

Brett: 22:58

Yeah, I don't know if I fully understand the question, but like, if you have built up like, like evolution of youtube like I said.

Brett: 23:04

So this is what I was telling laura yesterday was you have to think about multiple videos in a row, because the best way to increase your click-through rate once you objectively have the psychology of titles and thumbnails down, you get it then really the best thing is to make sure the person who watched your last video watches the next one. And so how you end your videos and like the language you're using, and so her. So we I went through with her like let's pick your next three videos and let's make sure we know the title of your next video and let's make sure we're using that specific language in this video. And so let's say this video is like the new way to grow on linkedin. That's video one, and in there she is describing a strategy.

Brett: 23:42

Her next video is called the 10 laws of LinkedIn growth or something, so that framing 10 laws and so I'm like okay, in this video, I want you to say this is one of my 10 laws of LinkedIn, my favorite one, and use that language very subtly so people are understanding the way that you are actually like categorizing your systems. That might be a complex way to say it, but basically to under this is a part where I would cut out of a podcast. If a person like rambled or said a diff, like they didn't say something smoothly, but they still continued and I didn't feel like it was clear. I would just cut that out because it was like fluff and they didn't do a good job of articulating clearly. Not that they messed up or anything, but just like it separates the point so how long your podcast as a result?

Brett: 24:25

because there's still like two hours on youtube. I probably cut 20 to 30 percent. Sometimes I cut half of them. But do you record for like three hours? Uh, I probably record for two hours tops almost every single time, and then they could be anywhere from literally one hour to an hour 50 if I don't cut a lot, but almost everyone is two hours of record time, and if I run out of things to talk about, I just like end it because it's like okay, I got that sentence, like there's no other questions. I have to achieve that outcome.

Brett: 24:49

And so again, this part right here, this tangent, is exactly an example where I would cut this minute and put it back to where I started was talking about this earlier live, and this is exactly how I would do it. So, back to what I was saying with laura she needs, if she has 10 laws that she wants to share of linkedin and that's the language she uses and how she thinks about her system she needs to be using that language in her videos, naturally, before. So then when her current actual viewers are consuming that and have heard that in their mind before, and then when they see it, they're like, oh, I've been wanting to hear about those 10 laws. I really like that one law she shared in the last one and now she has 10. She's going to share them with me. And again, another micro edge of the familiarity of that phrasing with her core audience. And so this is like where you can like, at the end of a video, t up the next video and in the next video I'm going to share my 10 laws of linkedin, and that way you're like getting people like you need to really make sure that you're, when it comes to educational, that you're teaching people in the order they need to learn, like I was saying with the podcast.

Brett: 25:47

But same thing. It's like okay, if you teach them how to do LinkedIn shorts or a growth strategy, then you can teach them all 10 growth strategies in the next video. But you want them to process and get in the mindset of I'm trying to grow on LinkedIn. And then after that, okay, now that they know, know all 10, what's their next problem? They're probably constrained on time, so let me give them templates in the next video. Okay, now that I gave them templates, what is their next problem? And you're trying to make sure you're making decisions on what video to make. That's solving the person's next problem in sequential order or if you're just jumping around making random linkedin videos, there's going to be a lot of fall off because they might not have that problem. But if it's in order, you know objectively if they watch this video they had that problem. Now it's solved by the nature of me solving this problem. A new problem exists. So what's the next video in that order to help them learn and process at a good pace?

Darren: 26:40

so it's almost like you're creating like a, like a journey, like a course for them, effectively, like you're solving that problem along a different aspect of the journey. How do you think about frequency in terms of releases? Because something like this, like larry, in particular, she scripts we can talk into kind of script writing and stuff too and setting that up, but should they? Should they be focused on a combination of volume and quality?

Brett: 27:01

so think about how long it takes for the person watching to process the video, to like, wrap their head around the idea. They've never thought about this before. They never even considered this. You're giving them a like. Let's say you're making a video on why they should start making videos on linkedin. Okay, they watch that. They're sold on the fact that they need to make videos at linkedin. They walked away. No one remembers what you say. They walk away with one belief. Change one sentence. You know what? I need to start making videos on LinkedIn. She's right, that's the only thing they're going to walk away with. Then that's going to go into their subconscious and they start thinking about it for the first time. Then their subconscious, their computer, is going to take two or three days to come up with an idea, because now they're taking in information under the lens that they need to make LinkedIn videos. So now they're taking in inspiration, taking in ideas for a video. Then, three days later, this idea comes to them in the shower and they're like oh fuck, that'd be a great video. I was supposed to make videos on LinkedIn. That's actually a really good idea. I should do that.

Brett: 27:56

Well then, if they've never made videos before, they have to go watch a YouTuber on how to shoot their first video. They have to get an editor. How much time is that happening? Realistically? Probably a week or two before that first linkedin video gets posted. And so for this example, I would say then you just spread out your next video where you estimate that they posted their video and their next problem has been presented to them. And so you're trying to predict the processing time for someone based off the new belief you gave them.

Brett: 28:21

And so when I was making no code ai sass videos, you would notice if you go back they're probably two or three weeks, maybe even a month apart, because I knew how hard it was for people to process ai, then figure out how to use no code, actually try it and then be ready for the next example, because I'm just making a video every day. They're going to get overwhelmed, and that's the number one reason people don't finish courses is overwhelmed. There's too much content and they don't feel like they're going to learn what they need to in an efficient time. They just don't have the time to give. So I think courses should be as objectively as short as possible, and it's your job as an educator to make the decisions on what is important for them to know and what is probably already figured out on their mind. So don't just make content. To make content because it looks valuable.

Darren: 29:06

That's interesting because there's like the debate then that people will say the criticism is that it's too basic. Now, I know it's not, because it's concise, it's clear. But that's the argument that it's too basic. There's not the elaborate crazy things that buff out programs.

Brett: 29:20

Well, basic is assuming that what you're saying is a commoditized information programs. Basic is basic is assuming that what you're saying is a commoditized information. Then you shouldn't even make a course in general, like my course for youtube is very concise and very short, but I'm not sitting there saying this is what click-through rate is. I'm like assuming a level of understanding, I'm assuming a competence level and I'm doing that based off what is available for free on youtube, because anyone's going to buy a YouTube course has probably consumed every YouTube advice video, and so have I.

Brett: 29:48

I watch all of Patti Galloway's interviews, I watch all of Mr Beast's interviews. So I've consumed all of that and I'm literally choosing what to put in my course based off what's not out there and filling those gaps. And I'm making them very concise and very quick to give you those little subtle nuances that can make things click. Because if I tell you that you need to get a really good thumbnail, it's all about click-through rate. You're not thinking about all the downstream important metrics after that and then you're just banging your head against the wall. It's teary versus practice. It's all the different edges.

Darren: 30:16

Okay, so let's transition from ctr title into the video itself. We've got a lot. We got a lot to get you, so we transition into the video. Specifically for podcasting, you actually solved my question on that, which was the fact that how do you almost script or write the storyline of the podcast. But for video specifically, what's your viewpoint on scripting storytelling? How do you incorporate that, or should you have some of it? That's a bit off the cuff.

Brett: 30:41

Yeah, if you don't have time? That's a bit off the cuff. Yeah, if you don't have time, you don't want to hear me? Yap, just go read the book.

Brett: 30:46

Influence by robert chiodini we'll chat about that too. Yes, it's all psychology, is the answer. So, and the same thing applies for your podcast, or not? The first 30 seconds is when 50 to 60 percent of people are going to leave, no matter what, and so you need to obsess over those first 30 seconds and make very quick decisions on is this the most important thing that I can share right here, if not cut it out? And so the first questions of my podcast. This is where intentionality is really important.

Brett: 31:13

I am choosing guests who no one knows. They're young kids, they're remarkable, they made a lot of money, but no one knows their name or their face, and so I need to give them credibility out the gate. Give people a reason they should listen to this random kid's advice. So my first question how much money do you make? Okay, you make $200,000 a month. How old are you 17. How the hell do you do that? And it's just straight to the point, because those are all different psychology principles. So it's who this person is, their authority, how old they are. So are they relatable? Or what's the context on the person? And then, what do they do? The desired outcome? So, if you want to do, if you want to make two hundred thousand dollars a month doing x business. You should watch it because this kid's doing it at 17 years old and I conveyed that most important information with precision in 15 seconds.

Brett: 32:01

Any other words would lose 10, 20, 30 percent of people if I wasn't that optimized. Because I get 100,000 views on my podcast. Your retention after the first 30 seconds is 50, 60%. That means 40,000 people a full football stadium worth of people left because I used the wrong first sentence. It's brutal, but that's how important it is, and so I use. When it comes to my 10 minute talking head videos, every single sentence has to be a new psychology point or like a bold claim or an outcome, and so it's like in this video, I'm going to show you 10 ways to make $10,000 per month. You should listen to me, because I have made $10,000 five times in my life, something like that and in this video I'm going to show you exactly how I did it and at the end I'm going to whatever. So you're trying to tee up a. That's not the best example, but it's just like define a big claim.

Darren: 32:52

Whatever they want, their desired outcome, one line of your authority why they should listen to you, why you should be giving them advice how we're going to achieve that outcome, and then just get into the video when you get into the video, then how do you make sure that the pacing and tonality and the cadence runs really clear as well, so it's not just like big hook and then under develop, underdeveloped idea, under deliver, under deliver. But maybe not, because maybe it's really valuable right, maybe it is 10 points that are really valuable, but there's something about the energy that you bring, the tonality of it, that's not at that level, you know. Yeah, because it's a performance.

Brett: 33:31

Yeah, on-camera performance is fun, Like that's like I could turn it on right now. It's like you need to do facial expressions like this, like you have to get excited about it. It'll feel so unnatural when you're recording, but it's so engaging to look at when someone's talking like that, and so you just have to do it. And then hand motions, like I'm moving. The fact of the act of me moving is making my voice sound more dynamic, like when I'm shaking like this. There's voice inflection, so that's like you're going to sound more interesting. You have to move. No one wants to listen to a brick wall. Your tonality. You have to be excited. You're literally trying to transfer an emotion to the person on a camera and so if you're not excited about it, how do you expect them to be excited about it? And so like those are like the main things just to think about on camera. It's like the visual aid, so like whether I'm using hand motions to speak or hear or look at the time the person watching is going to be able to connect those dots. And it's much more like pleasing, because it's less sensory, like less sensory required for you to really pay attention. Since I'm adding other elements, it's easier to process the information, so it feels soothing. And so same thing with editing.

Brett: 34:32

Editing is not about the coolest graphics or the coolest animations or the most skilled editor. It's about pacing with music and showing the visual aid that helps the person consume the information the easiest. And so it's not all about how good someone is at the technical ability, it's their taste, and music and sound is the most important thing. It's way more important than the actual graphics on the screen. In my opinion it's.

Brett: 34:56

Is this getting you excited?

Brett: 34:57

Are you engaged, are you emotional? And can you like, is the pacing correct, where there's no break of flow, because if you're giving someone new information, you're speaking at the right pace. This is a concept like value per second, of why I script every single video, why I'm choosing every single line to make sure it's like building off one another. It's because if you repeat yourself or you jump around or you share a story that isn't relevant and then try to keep going with the story, it breaks that like you can get someone into a flow state watching your video, but if you say the wrong sentence or say something that loses them, then they like kind of snap out of this trance and then that's when they leave, and so it's like is it constantly progressing? Are you giving them new information at the right pace, and then without overwhelming them, while simultaneously being engaging on camera, and all of that comes together to give someone a feeling. You're trying to give them a feeling, and so that's like the whole, but therefore storytelling where it's like everything is progressing, but that's.

Darren: 35:54

How do you write that?

Brett: 35:55

I want to get more specific.

Darren: 35:56

How do you write that specifically? Because are you writing?

Brett: 35:59

those. Give me a let's come up with a video idea. For me Like an educational one, let's come up with a video idea for me, let's say it's going to be a new trend of AI.

Darren: 36:10

So how? Chatgpt is releasing version 6 and version 6 is going to replace all of agencies.

Brett: 36:13

Let's say, chatgpt came out with video. You can do AI video. So the best thing to do is always position something as new, because it's the psychology principle of urgency and we need them to feel like it's important to watch this video now because if not, they're going to miss out. You have to give them a reason they have to sit here and watch this 10 minutes, and it's important to do it today because tomorrow you're going to miss the opportunity. So that's the lens that I'm writing this script from. So the very first thing is ChatGPT just made an AI video tool that can make you millions. Bold claim, desired outcome that's what they want. They want to make a million dollars. So I'm positioning this topic on that. Chat gpt just made a new feature that will make you a million dollars and if you do this today, you're going to be one of the first people that's ever going to be able to, that's going to do this. But if you wait, in two months the opportunity is going to pass you by. Like everyone knows that, if you're early to an opportunity, you make the most money. That's like.

Brett: 37:09

The second line I'm trying to go after is urgency, and the earlier you are, the more money you'll make, but if you don't, you're going to miss out. So scarcity, yeah, but I'm writing it as, and so that's why I'm writing it, so I can get the most concise, few words as possible to convey that message. And so it's big opportunity. Scarcity and, by the way, you should listen to me because I've made millions of dollars by being early to three trends, so that's why you're not just like learning from a random kid or a random homeless person on the street. It's like I actually make money doing stuff just like this.

Brett: 37:40

And I'm seeing a fourth opportunity, so you should listen to me on this one, and then I'd immediately go into social proof right after that. So, instead of it just being like me, some random guy on youtube telling you how to live your life and it's not only me this is exactly how alex becker, sam ovens and iman all made their money on the internet, and so then they're like that's just the human. So you see how like specific that is of like how humans think that that social proof is. Like if this building was on fire and we heard people like running out there, that'd be very unusual behavior, and we would probably all get up in the middle of this podcast and just go look and probably start running without even asking what's going on I noticed that in new york.

Darren: 38:16

Without going on a tangent, yeah, social proof. Back back to robert cialdini. When you see people walk across a red light, walk away. If I'm on a back street and it's just saying red, I'll stand there, but on times square everyone runs through the reds. Yes you.

Brett: 38:30

It's just just like that's how we are. We're mimetic creatures and we look at how other people behave to make sure we're conforming. And it's more of a survival thing, because if you act out of character, you're probably you would probably get like killed If you drag too much attention to yourself and you're acting out of character. That's just risky and survival. So it's just like a psychological principle. That's true, and so it's like we know these psychological principles are true. Let's make sure obviously you have like. This is where like manipulation or motivation becomes like the topic. You have to just assume good intentions and that what you're teaching is actually going to help this person. Now you're just using proven psychology principles to convey that in the most effective way, because you know it's good for them and you want these people to better their lives that's the exact perspective that you have when making content.

Brett: 39:16

And so then I'd go to social proof and then immediately it'd be like now they're sold on those four lines, they're like bought in, they're emotional. That's the first 30 seconds, that's the hook, and then I'm like so today I'm going to show you three different ways to use open ai's new video tool. Tell them what it is and how we're going to learn it. Okay, so number one. Then I'm just going to go into the value. So number well, actually number. Then I'd be given a little bit of context.

Brett: 39:39

And, by the way, if you don't know what open ai is, open ai is an ai platform where you can make videos with just a text prompt. This can be used in a variety of different ways, but the cool thing about this is they have an api, meaning you can actually take this tool and put it directly into your software and create a $10 million business. And then, boom, I'd give an example. And if you don't believe me, this is Creo by our friend, daniel Bitten, and he used an AI API and now he has a $30 million software company. So this is real, this is not a joke.

Brett: 40:07

Now let me show you three different ways that you could do this today. That, I think, would be a good opportunity. Number one you can make an AI avatar generator, because in the future and I just make some argument that in the future AI avatars, ai influencers, are going to be a big thing, and so if you create a tool that teaches people how to create AI avatars, that's going to create a business opportunity for them. They're going to have an AI influencer and they're going to make a lot of money doing that, and then, like layer and some like you, want to make a business that people use to make money or something like that. And I just go through three examples that I think are fresh, that other people haven't come up with and be pulling from analogies and examples of other real world use cases that people haven't been exposed to, and it's where people fall into the most cracks, that they're not exposing the other examples, the other elements of social proof.

Darren: 40:50

They're not drawing from those experiences. Does that make sense? Yeah, there's always an analogy, and let's flip that in terms of like. So you're educating someone who has the authority and you have an educational piece. Let's look at Iman as an example. His experiences are just himself and he's only referencing himself because it's his own video game. So how do you think about spinning that around so that people are just talking about their experiences, positioning them as the authority?

Brett: 41:14

figure. Well, you can always position yourself as the authority, whether you like them.

Darren: 41:18

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Brett: 42:06

I'm going to teach you how to build a shopify website and I'm credible because I did one yesterday and here it is, like it's like. Or I'm going to teach you the five best lessons from the 10 business books I've read. Here are the 10 books that I've read and you're just like streamlining that information.

Darren: 42:19

So you're one step ahead of the ladder of where they're currently at.

Brett: 42:23

You don't necessarily, you don't need to be a Tiger Woods, you just have to have done the thing you're talking about. We just happen like I've just made millions of dollars. Iman has made millions of dollars. That's the example we use. That's what a lot of people aspire to be. Making money is a survival skill at the end of the day. Dating, making money, productivity these are all universal things that can better your life. They're the biggest markets. That's how Iman went to $200,000 to $5 million because he started giving general life advice to young men.

Brett: 42:52

That's a much bigger market than money, but I forgot where I was going with that, but it's okay, man, it's okay.

Darren: 42:56

This is fucking. This is insane, and I like the fact that we're really stuck in the video, like this is going somewhere. But I think that there's obviously a transition in this period of time as well in terms of like where this is going with content and businesses we'll get to. Is there anything else in the video creation process, like scripting process? Like like how long does it take you to script a video?

Brett: 43:15

again, this is where I get like really spiritual, like my subconscious, like where do our ideas come from? Like is it really my idea? Like I can like literally tell myself I need to write a video on ai no code sass this week, and I need to do it by tuesday, because my editor needs by thursday, because I want to upload on Monday, because it's the best day. So I'm telling myself that. But come Wednesday I sit down and I'm like not inspired, can't think of anything, nothing's really clicking. But then Friday morning, all of a sudden I wake up. I had to drink a cup of coffee and I'm like holy shit, and then it just like flows out of me in 30 minutes.

Brett: 43:47

I have like the whole thing and then I will go refine it and revise it or whatever, but like there's no way for me to like sit down and be like I have to do this this week. Like for me, I have to like let it sit. I have to come up with that one sentence, the concept of the video. Let it sit, and then it spills out. But if I have that one sentence, that one concept of like what the person will get out of this video, then at least how, when I am writing, how I'm thinking is, is everything I'm adding in this video is a different angle to convince someone.

Brett: 44:14

So it's like, if you want to convince someone to start an AI no-code business, I need to show them examples of how people have used this AI to make money. I need to show them three different ideas so they can get their creativity sparked. I need to get the psychology principles so they understand the stakes and the context of why it's important now, and so I'm making every one of these decisions around that one line and that's how I'm choosing to include. It's like every one of my videos would be like like when I was doing no code sass with bubble. I'm like bubble, it's like shopify, but instead of building a store with no code, you can build full-blown software apps with no code, so drag and drop, and so people, you try to find something that they're familiar with and then give them that tangent same thing with like wop, like I always say, the amazon of digital products, because you don't need any other context other than you know exactly what it is now how do you think about how that comes into building offers on the back end right?

Darren: 45:01

so there's a lot of schools of thought here and I want to get you.

Brett: 45:02

Always start there start with reverse engineer from the business I've always knew exactly what I was selling or going to sell before I ever made content like. That's where you start Because at the end of the day, in the most direct way possible, youtube is just an engine to find customers for you. So if you start making videos like, hmm, I wonder what I'm going to sell, you're going to just attract random people and then you're going to make a half-assed product to try to appease those people when, instead of I just define, define, okay, I'm trying to build a no code software for newsletter writers. I need to therefore attract an audience and newsletter writers. Let me go survey youtube. Where's the attention for newsletter writers? What type of content can I make for newsletter writers that will attract them, actually be helpful for them, and then I can present my tool as a way to better their life? So I'm always starting with an offer or with a plan, and then I'll come up with a content strategy to attract the person that naturally needs that thing. The content thesis behind it. Content thesis, yes, exactly.

Brett: 46:00

So Hermosi is the best example. He was so intentional with this. He wanted to start a private equity firm. The problem with private equity what you need is deal flow. You need people that are willing to let you invest, compared to the other 1000 private equity investors. Why are they going to choose you to be the person that buys their business or works with them? And so his whole content thesis was okay, I want a private equity firm. I need deal flow, therefore.

Brett: 46:25

And what is deal flow? Well, typically, I need companies that are making around $3 million, and then I can help them go3 million to $30 million. That's what I'm going to help them achieve, so I'm just going to invest in the long run. I'm going to make content for entrepreneurs who are making $300,000. And I'm going to teach them how to get to $3 million, like I did, and then they will have watched 20 hours of my content. I will be the reason in their mind why they got there, because I told them such valuable information that, when they do make three million dollars, they're going to come to me and let me invest in their company, and I'm going to help them go from three to thirty million and we're all going to win. That's like his whole content thesis, but you have to start with the private equity, so it's private equity. What does private equity need? Deal flow, deal flow. How do I get deal flow, I need companies that are three million, three million dollars. How do I find those people?

Darren: 47:09

I need to create them let's content helps create them let's look at his example, uh, specifically as well, because this is interesting. So would you say he did a revamp of his content when he went down this approach, because he had the podcast before, right, it was like gym advice for gym owners. But when he switched to evergreen business content, do you think that was the inflection point? Because that's how? So people fail forward and they kind of random shitty piece of content and then they are like, okay, I want to get my shit together.

Brett: 47:33

So it was that his inflection point to be like p firm yes, 100 because he was selling a really expensive course on gyms or a community on gyms again, I'm super pro course, I think it's super helpful and most valuable thing in the world. But objectively he was selling a super expensive course, community teaching people how to get customers for their gym Awesome business. Then he sold that and so his new business was acquisitioncom and he made like videos that were really raw and really unedited before he really committed to content. Announcing acquisitioncom he came out with a very smart PR strategy of I have nothing to sell you. Because he was self-aware and he saw the market that people didn't like core sellers. So he called his business a licensing business and he said I had nothing to sell you.

Brett: 48:14

As a counter move to his past then he chose private equity as his business and he's made a new content thesis to attract that set of people. He got all of his gym owners through paid ads through the same concept, but without top-down thinking, and so without a doubt, it was just a new business, new strategy, new framing of the person and, as he's going hard with his organic content, he knew reputation mattered much more than just running ads to gym owners, because a lot more people are going to see him. He needed to cast a way broader net, and so he knew what he was going to be doing casting a broader net, getting a much bigger audience, and to counter that, he created a PR strategy that he knew would play well against his past. That make sense. Yeah absolutely. I hope I'm, not exposing anybody.

Brett: 48:56

Alex, I think you're really talented Like. This is not like a.

Darren: 48:58

No, we're dissecting. I just want you guys to all know that if you want to be successful in content.

Brett: 49:02

This is how intentional we think Like there is no successful person that is not this aware of the game. You're playing Every single aware of the game. You're playing every single piece of the puzzle. You have to know the pieces to play the game well, and so, hopefully, I'm showing you, like, the depths of the game what's your step one on this?

Darren: 49:20

so if you see what are, I see you are an entrepreneur and you have an offer and you're like okay, I need to start improving my content, everything. Where do you go?

Brett: 49:27

step one well, step one what's the business and who are the customers? So then step two is what type of content will help this person to like to attract that type of customer? You need to help them, so what type of content will help them? And so then I'm just going to go to youtube and look at all the content in that keyword. So, like pool cleaning, like I have a podcast on my channel that's on pool cleaning, and for the first like month it was one of the slowest because it wasn't a fit with my audience.

Brett: 49:52

But then YouTube found that it was all the pool cleaners, all the home service people, and started sending it to them. And so it's like, okay, I would just go look at pool cleaning, see all the videos that are out there on pool cleaning and then just try to think in order, okay, I want to try to first convince people to start a pool cleaning business so then I can create new customers. Then I'm going to make videos teaching anyone who has a pool cleaning business. Hopefully I just created like a few thousand. Then I'm going to take the other 10 000 that are already on youtube. I'm going to start making content on how to grow a pool cleaning business, so how to get customers. So I'll make a video on how to get customers for your pool cleaning business and I would try to find three new ways that aren't on youtube already that are like modern, so like using Nextdoor or going to whatever. I don't know the exact examples, but I would try to create some. Then I would try to help the current ones with the problem they have, which is how to grow. I would go to YouTube, make sure I'm teaching strategies that aren't already on YouTube and are modern, and I would just make content around this ecosystem of pool cleaners from that lens, like what problems they have, how to to hire customers, how to grow or how to hire employees, how to grow, how to buy a van, how to clean the pools, like pick consciously.

Brett: 51:01

What video will get the most views to the most customers? Because you can make a video on like how an easy side hustle to make ten thousand dollars per month as a high school kid in the summer. That would be a video teaching people the business model to try to create new customers, where that could get 100,000 views, but only 1,000 of them are really serious and would actually buy your course. Or you can go for people who already have a pool cleaning business and say how to grow your pool cleaning business and then sell a pool market, pool cleaning marketing course.

Brett: 51:34

So that way you were going to get maybe 10 000 views on the video, but almost all of them are going to be willing to buy and they're willing to pay more because they're actively making money with this business, and so it's like that is just where you have to make a conscious decision. Do I go for the smaller market, the actual advanced people, and charge ten thousand dollars, get a thousand views, but charge ten thousand dollars? Or do I go broad and try to attract new people, get a hundred thousand views, but I can only charge a hundred bucks? You know you can make the same amount, but it's like thinking through all of the variables and making sure it makes sense for specifically what your product is offering if you have, if you're someone like yourself who has stakes in different types of businesses and he's different interests, do you create multiple channels?

Brett: 52:16

now? Yes, absolutely, you didn't for yours right, it just didn't. You didn't have to. Like youtube has gotten so like you have to look at the lens of youtube is good, like you, and it's a really positive thing for beginner channels. Like, if you start a new channel today and you make the best piece of content on a keyword, you will get a hundred thousand views. Two years ago, if you didn't have followers, it was impossible and, like you would literally have to like grow on twitter because of retweeting or something, because there was a mechanism for it where on youtube it was like so hard unless you got randomly recommended by a channel, it was like virtually impossible to grow. So now it's really possible for new channels, but at the same time, it's only you have to make the best piece of content. Now, like the best piece of content wins each week, and so it's a good and a bad. Like it doesn't help the beginners, because the beginners tend to be bad at making videos. That's why they're beginners. So it's not at all about subscribers, it's just the skill gap, and so for any business, youtube wants your format to be consistent, just like a TV channel. Like history has history, espn has sports, whatever, and so you should literally be making a specific channel to maintain as consistent of a format every single time. So if it's 10 minute talking head about pool cleaning, you do 10 minute talking head about pool cleaning and you have that channel. That's just that thing. So now my channel is just podcast for my main channel. And so once you have that down, you find the format that flows into the business.

Brett: 53:35

And so Iman has the best example because he just did this. Like six months ago, his main channel he used to have vlogs, he used to have 10 minute talking head, he used to have hour long trainings on how to do SMMA. He had them all in one channel. Now he's spread it out. So now he has a vlog channel which actually gets the most views. Now Only has a few hundred thousand subscribers, but it probably gets more views than his main channel Because a lot of people like vlogs. So that'll get like 500,000 views per video.

Brett: 53:59

Then his main channel is still just how to make your first thousand $10,000 online, like beginner middle level content. And then that's one channel's content. And then the third one is deep smma social media marketing agency, hour-long like hardcore education, very advanced stuff. And so for the vlog channel since it's not actually teaching some but something that's valuable and actionable in their life. He just sells people a three dollar energy drink, his big day drink, or his glasses uh, the gaji glasses blue light blockers. So he's just using lifestyle vlogging, partying, and then kind of makes a product that anyone who enjoys that content could buy and consume.

Brett: 54:36

Then his main channel people that are a little more interested.

Brett: 54:39

So they see the vlog. They're like how does this guy actually make his money? I want to be like him. They go to his main channel where he's teaching you the five principles to make your first million dollars as a teenager. In those videos he's selling selling a 37 per month digital launchpad subscription, which is his course platform and where you can learn how to make your first thousand dollars online with like 20 different business models. And so he goes from like really mass market vlogs to get a lot of views to a one dollar three dollar product to then a middle tier, few hundred thousand views to a middle tier price 37 a month. And then his smma iman gaji extended channel has like twenty to thirty thousand views per video, but he's then charging and or then selling a program that's like two to three thousand dollars to really learn how to start a marketing agency. And so it's just different verticals for different products and different content strategies to match like your personal brand is like a reflection of your external success and the value you create in your content.

Brett: 55:33

Like there's no, like you don't just turn on a camera and start talking about yourself, for sure, for sure. It's funny.

Darren: 55:38

So let's go more into the detail. Do you want to know how we book the most amazing guests on our podcast that you're seeing today? I've created a full template and guide and every single script that I've ever used to get the best guests in the world, and I've put everything together in a simple, step-by-step process. If you click the link down below, I'll give you the exact guide to book any guests on your podcast and have a full guest management system for you to manage every single guest. If you want to see the process behind booking guests like Justin Waller, luke Bellmer, sterling Cooper and every guest in the online business space, click the link down below and you'll get the full guide for free. Thank you, I'll offer specifically. So you mentioned iman has those different tiers. He's a lot of traffic getting into there. How do you think about what way you should position those offers? Because you have you're the agency offer right, which I imagine is high ticket.

Darren: 56:28

So yeah, it's like 10 000 a month or we'll partner with you, so similar to myself, and as a result of that I didn't need loads of people because I physically couldn't fulfill a lot of people yeah so at what point do you think through the lens of like, as your audience grows? What type of offers should you have? What prices should they be positioning should?

Brett: 56:46

it be. I always choose the offer first, like, even though I have 500,000 subscribers, I could pivot my channel completely and just start ranking for another keyword and so I'm not thinking I have this audience, now I need to come up with a new offer. It's more just like. I don't think of it. I think offer's the easy part. Or you come up with that first independently and then you start building an audience around that. That makes sense for you, start building an audience around that that makes sense for you, because if you do it, if you try to build an audience first agreed, you can do it either way.

Darren: 57:19

But I think my question is more so on, like so, let's say, the problem that you solve, so you're helping people build a no code, low code app. Okay, that's right, let's just put that as the problem you're solving. Okay, that's a problem, there's a huge problem with that. And you started with an agency. But now, as you've grown, have you thought about solving the same problem? But it's like okay, let's add in a course option, let's add in a coaching offer.

Brett: 57:42

Yeah, yeah so for for that. Yes, obviously we had our no code development agency just a development agency, but we use no code half the time. Yeah, uh, first that was like the main business we had for three and a half years, but then it's like okay, that's all I was talking about earlier. Like you want to, you can create more customers, and so, like my youtube channel is like convincing people to start a sass, and then, if they start a sass, hopefully we're the ones that can help them build it. But maybe they don't have the budget for ten thousand dollars. Okay, well, what's the next best thing I can do to help the people directly below that to maximize revenue for the business? Okay, well, let me just teach them everything we do. So like we have like a very clear-cut, like six-week uh roadmap on like development and project management, and then we have like a two-week like ideation and validation phase, and so we just made like this we had a 10 week challenge and so we just made, like our at our agency, how we think of releasing an app from idea to launching it with our clients in 10 weeks. We just made that into a repeatable week-by-week document that anyone could then follow, and then we also have a course teaching you literally how to build software with Bubble, which is just like a no-code drag-and-drop software builder, and so it's like finding every stage of the.

Brett: 58:54

I have all these people that are interested in SaaS, that are watching my channel, but then within that there's some people who have a lot of money but they don't have a lot of time, they don't want to learn how to do it. So then there's higher agency, then there's people who have no money but a lot of time, and then people in the middle, people who kind of understand how to build software. Maybe they're a developer already and they have money because they have a nine-to-five and they have a little bit of time. Okay, let's give them our entire 10-week, like if you know how to code and you are ready, you have an idea. Here's our 10-week project management timeline for you to go from idea to launching on product hunt and how to do everything in between. And so it's just like all types of the high ticket, mid ticket, low ticket, how do you price the mid-tier one? Uh, that's just, and again, that's only like 300 bucks. What? Yeah, super low, yeah, I think.

Brett: 59:41

So I don't think it's a great biz op on youtube against like if I again, if I was trying to optimize for money, I would choose a biz op on youtube. That is like really low effort, really achievable, and feels like that takes no time on the person's end to be successful. Like Daniel says perfect Daniel Bitton's like. Like you can build, you can make $10,000 a month making YouTube shorts without using your face and just using AI to create the videos. That's like you don't have to do any work, you just have to upload the content. And so it feels like really like appealing to people because they think they can do it in 30 minutes To start a SaaS. Like as far as difficulty of like time needed to actually like see your first customer is like I'm asking for months of the person's time and so I could charge more for it, but this was never like. That was never like a optimized revenue type of decision.

Brett: 1:00:31

The agency is what we're trying to make the most money from, and we'd rather have a few really high quality clients than that, and so it's like I'm not going to the beginners, don't? I don't need to charge a lot to the beginners.

Darren: 1:00:41

Most people want to watch the course Cause it's like, uh, with these offers, it's like what are you optimizing for? Right, if you're optimizing in, like we are, for those longer term clients that want to partner with you, eventually grow with you, because they'll give you asymmetrical returns, just like on the youtube and your videos content, that's what you're optimizing for, but the rest is like a catch-all. Yeah, so the 300 is an interesting, just idea, because it's just like here is something that can help you. It's not going to give you everything and more.

Brett: 1:01:07

It's an interesting way to price it. Yeah, because you don't want to. I also don't want to like cut people out that could, like it's really hard to like say who's willing to do the work, and I would hate to cut someone out because someone could go through our program and do the 10-week challenge and like do it themselves, kind of like not the best, but like see the process and then eventually become an agency client. Yeah, and so I'm really trying to optimize, we're trying to optimize for agency clients.

Darren: 1:01:32

Uh, not necessarily like course, revenue it's always interesting because, like, if you have your ideal customer of, let's say, e-man you're going to build an app from, you may think I need to stay super close to this persona, but then someone comes in left field. They're like, oh, this guy isn't going to be a good fit, but that guy actually is the best fit long run. It's an interesting to observe, yeah, and get you can over optimize too much on what you believe to be true.

Brett: 1:01:53

And then you're like, wait, this just debunks that entire theory because I'm I don't know everything that I know don't know yeah, and yeah, I want to be fully candid, like I'm not, like I think courses are great, but I this is like not at all like an optimized way to do it, like I'm doing something completely different now too. So it's like that was like kind of where we left things and we could have like really optimized the funnel through cold traffic, made a whole ac funnel, broken up the courses and different pieces. Like there was like three years of optimizations I could do to make that like a 10 million dollar a year business that I've decided to like put to put the side okay, anything else on content specifically that we can.

Darren: 1:02:28

We've kind of missed it.

Brett: 1:02:29

We're going to gap I think so much I could talk for 10 hours about content.

Darren: 1:02:32

Is there anything specifically you think that Just?

Brett: 1:02:34

psychology. It's like, if you're making content, just be very intentional with using psychology, because you can choose to say anything you want. You could describe something like I could describe your hair in 80 different ways, you know, or how to get your hair that way, but it's like what you want to do is make sure the first five sentences are psychology principles Outcome why you should listen to me Other people are doing it, how we're going to achieve it in this video, and I would just like obsess over that. Another one is the context and the words you're using, like inclusive language, not like inclusive in like the liberal way, but like making sure you're using words that people understand In your niche, in your niche specifically, or broadening it out so they can understand your niche without having to be in your niche. And so if you're talking at whatever level you're talking at, you're siphoning people out, because 99% of people are beginners at everything, and so if you use language for beginners, you are going to get, objectively, tens of millions of people that could possibly understand this, where, if you start using really technical industry jargon like if I say you can build a sas app with an api and very little bit time, you're talking to like 10 000 people on youtube. But if I say you can build, you can start a software business with pre-built features. All you have to do is click, drag and drop and you can make ten thousand dollars per month and be a software founder. That is like more. It's the same thing that I'm communicating, but since I'm opening up the language to everyday people, it can just objectively attract more people where that's really. I think that's probably one of the most subtle things. Also, like your sets that you're shooting on should match who like the. If you had to make a movie character of a technical software founder, you should be designing and choosing what's in the background, so the person viewing this feels like it's a natural fit.

Brett: 1:04:19

A lot of people think people are scammers because they're going to tell you that they're going to teach you how to make a hundred thousand dollars a month and you're going to have a lambo like them, but then when they shoot, it's just like, and like it looks like you're in your mom's room or I got a room in your mom's house or something you know, and so it's like being very conscious of the fact that, like you're not playing a character, but the way at least you dress like.

Brett: 1:04:40

I, very consciously, was wearing a black shirt. I wear a subtle nice watch. I am in a room that looks techie, like it's big, open ceilings, computers and TVs, and so every part about this feels like the guy I'm saying that I am is what it looks like for the viewer. That's very important because if there's a mismatch they won't understand why, they won't be able to articulate it, but they're like something about that guy feels off, he feels scammy and it's because there's like little mismatches and what the person's expecting you to be and how expecting to perceive you and how you're actually portraying yourself it's like the optics basically of the entire brand, right, so how would you analyze like iman in that regard?

Brett: 1:05:16

I can. Just I don't. I don't know if this is insider information, but iman is just like they have the perspective of. He needs to come off like james bond and so they anchor like they picked a movie character for him and then they built like he comes off like a celebrity. I think it's genius like he literally turned himself into a celebrity, like even down to like how his camera guy records him. It almost feels like it's like a tmz paparazzi person from across the street on the corner. And since you're people we are familiar with associating that camera style to famous celebrities like, I think he's one of the most intelligent people when it comes to brand building.

Brett: 1:05:50

Like someone opening his door into his yeah, and so like they kind of picked like a inspiration with like a movie character and then start making his like dress like very specific outfits, very specific people around him. In the videos he's always associated with high-end luxury brands. He's always pictured at a nice place. There's girls around him, he's having fun like it's like really it's the highest level of person. That's true personal branding. He's the best in the world at that because it's intentional.

Darren: 1:06:16

Would you say that it's authentic or inauthentic?

Brett: 1:06:20

I think it's authentic. I think it's 100, the most authentic expression of himself. Like. I think that is how he thinks of himself and I think it's a skill to be able to. He says all the time that he dumbs himself down. You have to dumb yourself down to get a million views, because most people are not at the point where they're talking about managing a portfolio of $50 million, and if he starts making a video on how to invest your eight-figure wealth, it's just you're out of touch, and so it's 100% a skill and it's authentic because that's who he actually was. There is no other person on earth who should be teaching an 18 year old how to make a million dollars, because he literally made a million dollars at 18. So, like, objectively, like you can judge it all you want, but like he is the person that should be teaching people For sure.

Brett: 1:07:02

And he's just playing the game at the highest level Now should he? The real question is should he go on podcasts and talk about it? How analytically I'm talking about it, or does that specifically defeat the point of what he's doing, which would then make him uncredible? It's a really weird thing, like same thing for me on YouTube. If I make only advice on my channel that I'm talking about in this podcast, it's only going to get 20,000 views. But then if I'm selling people coaching on how to be on YouTube and get 100,000 to a million views, they will look at my channel. Be like you. Only get 20 000 views. Why would I listen to you?

Brett: 1:07:33

And so it's weird, if you start actually telling the truth of how you think and sharing your strategy and tactics, that it could genuinely work against you for what you're the reason you're trying to do it in the first place. And so he has to hold back, like I do see this in him. He has. He doesn't like that. He has to play dumb on youtube, but he has to play dumb on YouTube. But he has to play dumb on YouTube. But then he gets projected as just an influencer or content creator and he but to defend that he could go on YouTube and talk about everything I just talked about making himself a celebrity and the intentionality behind the brand building, but then that, very consciously, would go against what he's trying to do and why that's successful.

Darren: 1:08:10

And I see sometimes on his story when he does Q and A's he's trying to do and why that's successful. And I see sometimes on his story when he does q a's he's like well, the reality is I actually have 300 employees. I spend most my days putting out fires yes, like I have to, all the all, everything that comes along with being a founder of multiple businesses, like I carry that every day.

Brett: 1:08:23

You just don't see that yeah, and I've I've talked to him multiple times he has like legitimate. He has multiple in real life businesses in the area that he lives that he fully owns that are millions of dollars and there's like physical brick and mortar, like risk diversifying businesses. So like there's zero doubt he is like one of the best entrepreneur minds of our generation and he's literally the best at personal brand.

Darren: 1:08:44

Yeah, but he cannot really flex that muscle because it would work against it, working literally well, also to the point of like his specific, because it's good to talk about examples with this, because that's the best way to like analyze the theory from what we're talking about to the practice. If you looked at him specifically, he's not really teaching you like branding and showing up and presentation, like that's not what he's teaching you. So it's like why would he be asked about that? It's just the way that he is.

Brett: 1:09:09

Well, the ironic thing is he teaches marketing, social media marketing agencies and his personal branding. What he does is marketing like that that he is the best, one of the best marketers in the world, like objectively, just by how big his social media is, like it's under, like you cannot debate that he is one of the best marketers. And now he's teaching people how to do social media marketing like. The ironic part is that everyone who sells social media marketing agency courses is teaching you how to get customers, how to like start an agency, how to fulfill, how to charge them, and not the creative art of marketing like. I am a marketing nerd. Like that is if I had to say I'm good at one thing. It is marketing and psychology. That's all it is. And so he just doesn't have the direct one-to-one making content on how he does his personal brand, because it would destroy that whole thing from working. But he is teaching social media marketing, which is the same thing you know, so it's like I don't.

Brett: 1:09:58

I don't know why anyone would criticize, obviously.

Darren: 1:10:00

Yeah, sure, some of the marketing tactics like lifestyle or whatever, can be of course, but and I'm actually just thinking about, if you're familiar with alex g I got interviewed him about two weeks ago. Really, big trading guy teaches people how to start trading and so on, and he said to me he was like I'm sick to dead of making trading videos because it's like how to open up an account, how to place a stop trade. Yeah, and the reason why is because that's who he's going after and a dude has built like multiple business as a result, but it's just an interesting idea because that's the way he wants to position the brand. Now, when I when I want to ask you is about you touched lightly about how, if you're building youtube back in a day, you have to utilize like x, instagram, send traffic upwards and stuff like this. You can still do that, but you still think that's a good strategy to bring people to youtube, to utilizing your other accounts, like deep linking, putting a link on instagram I mean, I got a the dickie bush podcast.

Brett: 1:10:45

I did. I had we had a tweet that was like a summary of the podcast I got. I got a million views and that only resulted in 800 youtube views. So I got a million views on twitter, like that tweet did, and then it was like really in-depth explainer, like you'd think that someone would that, like that would go watch the full podcast, but no, it transitioned to only 800 views. I don't think there's a lot of cross platform, but does it build?

Darren: 1:11:09

more of the authority. Just to give you the awareness.

Brett: 1:11:12

Yes, for sure, it's like facial awareness, like, at the end of the day, the goal is to get as many people to see my face as possible. So, like they, like he said, I feel like I've seen you before. Like they, just like, yeah, like, of course you have yeah, it's like.

Brett: 1:11:22

That's like at the end of the day, that's the top of funnel goal. This gives me people to see your face as possible, and then youtube's like middle of funnel, like they're like actually consuming hours of your content and then eventually, once they hit seven hours of your content, they'll buy something from you.

Darren: 1:11:34

How come you didn't explore LinkedIn for B2B SaaS building?

Brett: 1:11:37

SaaS platforms. I'm exploring it. Now. I have a podcast guest that's going to come on and give me the sauce, lara.

Darren: 1:11:44

Did you interview her in New York? Did you interview her here?

Brett: 1:11:48

She's going to come back in the next month or so, but I will say another talk, like when we talked at the coffee shop today. I try not to do that with my guests really, because I my natural enthusiasm, like I'm having them on very specifically, because I'm excited to talk to them or to learn something from them, and if I ask those questions before for the first time, when it's the first time where I'm hearing their thoughts or their perspective of things, I get really excited. But then if I have to fake it again, it's not felt to the camera so I like will not talk to my guests. I'm like I'll literally say hey, great to meet you, dude, so excited to do this. I'm gonna get set up.

Brett: 1:12:25

I'm not gonna ask you any questions until we're recording and so it's just like, very like the 10 minute first 10 minutes can be awkward sometimes, but when we get into it all goes away and then you'll cut into it, you'll, yeah, you'll segue into it.

Darren: 1:12:35

That's interesting, take, because my view on that is like for me I'm ready to go, ready to go, but for the guest just to kind of have much more of like a natural, organic conversation, more of like a relationship building side of things, just so that we're not it's a deer and a sheep yeah, and because of that, the first 10 minutes my podcast can be very stiff, and then you cut it, I'll cut it out or reorder.

Darren: 1:12:55

Yeah, if that's the case okay, so for linkedin, the strategy will be to go after founders that are basically trying to sell to SaaS or their SaaS sucks and you come in and fix it, turn around and scale it.

Brett: 1:13:06

Mine's going to be for YouTube coaching, just because I have no content. This is what I'm truly passionate about and actually my expertise, and so it'll just be teaching people on LinkedIn. Everyone feels like this guilt when you start a personal brand or they need to make a youtube channel, but it's also very intimidating. So I think a linkedin strategy for youtube coaching would transfer, because they might have linkedin down so they might have like the ego that they know that their content works. Yeah, and so now we just need to. I need to take this competent person who knows how to make content and just teach them how to youtube optimize it.

Brett: 1:13:38

Okay, and I'm not going to just start posting on linkedin like I would never. Just I I know for a fact I don't know linkedin like because I know the depth of what it takes to get to be successful on youtube and so the reason I've never done it. So I just don't know the depth of what's needed on linkedin. I don't know the edges I need, I don't know the dynamics, I don't know the metas, like I need her to tell me, but I'm waiting until the podcast, specifically so I can learn life in front of everybody.

Darren: 1:13:59

Love it. Okay. So let's say, someone is good on their platform X, linkedin, instagram I asked Lara about this specifically as well Her top 10 videos. Would you carry over your top performing posts, really diagnose the shit as to why something was working and bring that to YouTube, or do you go fresh?

Brett: 1:14:15

I'm just going to listen to whatever my coach tells me. Like I am a huge believer in just paying the best people to tell me what to do. But if I were to approach it, I would just think from first principles on what worked on LinkedIn and just make new content. I don't think I would ever go back and repurpose it unless that works on YouTube, like right now you can do that in short form. Like I can have like 30 accounts of WG, my podcaster, brett pod Brett marketing Brett life and repurpose, and that works on short form algorithms.

Brett: 1:14:42

But I don't know if that would work on LinkedIn. Like LinkedIn could be like more about like live news or live information or fresh content.

Darren: 1:14:50

So I don't know you dragging people across. Sorry, my, my question is if you have people on LinkedIn who are crushing it and you want to bring them to YouTube, to build their brand on YouTube, how would you, how would you do that?

Brett: 1:14:59

oh, oh, oh. So I'm talking from like to watch my youtube channel no, you're trying to convert them into my program?

Brett: 1:15:05

yeah, I would. Honestly, I guess, just marketing. So it's like you're literally teaching them, like, like I would reference my success on youtube, how much revenue youtube has generated for me. I would reference the weight that you could target very specific. You could get attractive, very specific set of customers who are in a buying mood. You can spend a lot. I would do like the 7-11-4 rule. Like I would reference that where it's like someone needs to watch seven hours of your content, but if they do, they'll watch, they'll buy anything from you for life. And so YouTube is like the best platform because, since it's video first, you can get much more time. So if you start an hour and a half long podcast, well, you only need to get them to watch three or four podcasts and then they're like bought in and so I'll just like choose these angles very selectively and use those like.

Brett: 1:15:49

You have to be logical. You have to be able to explain to the person it is valuable, like it's no doubt about it just being able to explain that value proposition very concisely and then prove that you're the person that they should learn from and build up that trust with them I want to ask you about trends in general, because you've been, you've worked through multiple phases.

Darren: 1:16:06

So my observations you've seen like web tree come up. You were like early on that no code, low code, everything. How do you decide between what you jump on and what you leave go?

Brett: 1:16:20

so again, the the business from the start of my YouTube channel was always software development. It's like before I even had a YouTube channel, I was trying to build a SaaS called Poppin. It was like a Disney fast pass for bar owners like pay to skip the line at a bar and I spent. I was running a video marketing agency before that and I took all the money from the video marketing agency and poured it into that. Me and my partner both spent like 25 grand each trying to develop that and build that and do sales and like get into bars, and it was like kind of successful. We got into like a dozen bars, but the problem was we're running out of money. It was bars were kind of screwing us over, like they would like circumvent our system and take cash instead of using our like. Yeah, there's a ton of random problems. We didn't expect that, we didn't really understand and so. But we still had these developers on our payroll and we needed to like keep paying. So we wanted to keep the business going and so to neutralize the cost of our sass, we started like trying to just like like well, my partner, brandon, I was like dude, let's, is there anybody else? You know that needs a sass. Maybe we can just like use our developer halftime and split the time on ours to pay for it, right, like we'll charge this person, this guy's salary and then we'll use him when he's free, and so that was like our software development agency. And so then I started making content.

Brett: 1:17:28

Uh, where that kind of just happened and I started making content because I really got just into this was like, actually not as strategic as I want to make it sound here. I literally was just addicted to trading like nfts when it was really popping off and I got super lucky. I've been into crypto for a long time and I was on Twitter and I saw all these people talking about this trend and I was just straight on addicted. It was a really fun thing. But then very quickly I started making content. I went from zero to 10,000 subscribers in two weeks, hit this trend like crazy and just happened to become the biggest YouTuber during that trend. But a software development agency also was a very lucrative thing at that time, and so that's where, like, the software development agency was like established, like it started with just like us trying to survive with our software, but then very quickly turned into a very lucrative business model, to the point where we worked with some fortune 500 companies.

Darren: 1:18:17

That was a horrible experience yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah, and it actually fell through, so like we didn't even get whatever it's like how many?

Brett: 1:18:24

sign-offs. Did you need before? How many, how many sign-offs, how long procurement was actually getting involved and then this getting a new ceo in that company. The department I was working with completely evaporated after nine months of my life. So that's a whole different conversation.

Darren: 1:18:39

So the real. I said to you earlier the reason why we stopped working with these blue chip companies is because they are paying out six months later yeah, the net nine.

Brett: 1:18:45

Yeah, not 90, insane, not even 90, 180.

Darren: 1:18:48

It's nuts dude. I was like very, very small. We had like four people and, uh, we weren't going to get paid for.

Brett: 1:18:53

Six months later I'm sorry what you don't get paid for. Six months later it takes forever to get the deal they expect you to like. Have like 30 people on your team and they don't even care, like they won't even talk to you about anything they want.

Darren: 1:19:04

It was horrible and then the department got left.

Brett: 1:19:06

Yeah, yeah, the whole department literally got let go and we didn't. It was so whatever, that's, that's life, it's all for a reason. But then after that we pin that demand in that market kind of died down and then ai became a a really big trend. How you see a trend is literally just, especially on YouTube, is like if there's a big gap between how many subscribers someone has and how many views they're getting, which is a signal of like there's a lot of demand for this topic, but very little supply. If the lower tier YouTubers are getting capturing that attention, it's like, okay, anyone who makes content on this the bar is super low is getting hundreds of thousands of views.

Brett: 1:19:43

And so when chat gpt came out, I just saw that very quickly again, like I experienced it with web3, really benefited from it, and then saw it firsthand and I was just from like it's all about speed when it comes to a trend.

Brett: 1:19:55

And so, like the second, I saw that I already knew how to write scripts, I already know how to to shoot videos, I already had an editor, I already had a thumbnail, whole system down, and so I made the first video on how to use the GPT API to start a software business how to make money with the GPT API right when the AI trend happened and I got almost 2 million views on that very quickly, and so I just nailed that trend because I just saw that, okay, this is a new, exciting technology.

Brett: 1:20:17

There's a ton of interest. All of the smaller subscribers are getting hundreds of thousands, or all the smaller youtube channels are getting hundreds of thousands of views. I need to act like there's no time, like I had like a day or two where I was like I don't know, I'm like the web three guy, I I don't know, like this is what everyone knows me for, this is what all my people watch me for, I don't know if they're gonna like this. And then, very quickly, you just have to get over that, see the opportunity and capitalize the more you think you're going to talk yourself out of something.

Darren: 1:20:40

So you got the AI trend aspect and then you tailored it to software?

Brett: 1:20:47

Yes, because the anchor is the software development agency, that's an interesting point so this is where I call them segues.

Brett: 1:20:53

I've had three segues in my channel. It was Web3, and that segued to AI. But it's a natural segue because it's still in the context of like advanced technology or not advanced, but a new technology with like software elements. And so I saw ai. I was like, okay, new thing, how does this apply to my core content style? So that was my anchor. And then, same thing the ai trend was kind of dying down, the attention was leaving, so I needed to like ai is still kind of interesting, but just theT. How to make money with chat. Gpt is like really overplayed and not real, like it's definitely played out. And so I was like, okay, well, no code. Saas is also becoming really popular. Right now. We're using Bubble at our agency to like build front ends for people very quickly. Maybe I can tie in this AI thing and then tie in this no code thing that people don't really seem to know too much about on youtube, because it's really big on twitter. It is good to use twitter to see like what people are interested in live very quickly. And reddit, yeah, and reddit. So I saw that on twitter, this like no code community. We had been using it a little bit.

Brett: 1:21:51

Ai was new thing. I've already been talking about the apis, so it's like a perfect segue and I just used my psychology and like new opportunity formula and combined the two and and by combining them, the AI was. The urgency aspect of AI is new. You have to get on this. If you find a specific niche use case, you will win, and then no code is the achievability. Anyone can do this. Where? If I just use the AI API and talk to developers that know JavaScript or whatever, or JSON or whatever, it wouldn't be as sexy because they're already way more familiar. But with all these people who have always wanted to start a software company but it's always been too expensive or too technical, I use the language with no code to counter that objection. Ai is new. No code is achievable. And then the anchor to my no code software is why it's a good strategy for me.

Darren: 1:22:37

When you made those little handbrake turns, did you find that it was a big churn in your audience? And the reason I'm asking is because I think what I'm fearful of is changing my channel from just being podcasts, yeah, whereas, like, there's guys that are in my team and it where I'm at a point whereby I should be creating YouTube content around people, starting podcasts, building podcasts, growing podcasts, different aspects of it, because it's already there, it's on LinkedIn. I have thousands of ideas, they're all done, and then the debate is do we create a new channel or do we put it through this channel, or do we run them side by side?

Brett: 1:23:12

So for me, those all had overlap, because if you're interested in Web3, you weren't just. People are not in a vacuum. We all have seven interests at the same time, and so there was overlap between Web3 and AI, and I call that overlap new technology. So these are future technologies and so with that, those people that were interested in Web3 and AI, well, they're also interested in no code, because you can build Web3 and AI software with no code, and so it was a natural segue. Now, the thing that wasn't a natural segue was the podcast, but I've also seen that when I do a podcast with a young kid building AI, saas always going to get 100K, 200k, like Daniel going to hit immediately Because I just have that group of people and then it's a big enough market.

Brett: 1:23:56

Saas is a really good market on YouTube. I talked about this in my whole trends trends series on youtube if anyone wants to go watch it. At the start of the year I called sass was going to be a huge trend, and since then it's like the market on youtube is like five x, like everybody's views on average. People are getting really into software right now, and so that is why those segues made sense and that's why I could do the podcast. But I will say my first podcast I did was with oliver uh from tabs. Yeah, that went really well. That was 500 000 views.

Brett: 1:24:23

my very first podcast, but that was just because he is the best like. He had a brand new strategy 10 million dollar chocolate company, 21 years old. He's super articulate and fun to listen to. Like as much as I want to take credit for that, that's all him. And I just happen to be the first one to get him on a podcast to express that concept of running 50 different sub-accounts. That was a fundamentally like holy shit. Every company needs to use this marketing strategy and it's brand new and he's the first one to crack it. That's a pretty important thing that he discovered. So all props to him for that. So again, that was kind of a lucky like.

Brett: 1:24:55

And then next was like Brett from Design Joy, which is also a really novel way. And then next was like Brett from Design Joy, which is also a really novel way. Really small tweak for any agency owner to go from normal to productized. We even went. Me having that conversation was literally us going from that Fortune 500, going for big like half a million million dollar clients to let's just do a lot for 10,000 a month because of the productized angle. So a lot of these. You will see everything I do now I'm actually just like. I have a podcast guest on like wow, that's smart Implement it.

Darren: 1:25:20

No, no, no, I'm the exact same. I'm the exact same. I'm the exact exact same man and I see the similarities with you. Know, you've you've had Alex Hayden on your show as well. Those guys were in the no code specific space, but then you bring guys outside of the ecosystem. But that's why it's kind of interesting, because if someone asks you and similar to me what's the podcast on, I always say it's just an online business space, because you can have the coaching aspect, the consulting aspect, the agency bros, the no code bros, but it sits under that vertical, and then what I do is podcasting, what you do is software does that make sense? Correct, so?

Darren: 1:25:52

for me and you. It feels it works and it's like it fits. It, just like the glove fits. My concern with myself I'm happy. I would love your feedback on this is like do I create a second channel? Yes, that's just going balls deep. That's around the side. No one even knows about it. It grows on itself. If it grows on itself because, again, let me talk about the time of it you, the time of podcasting is people that are interested. Podcasting is high, but the time of people who want to do a podcast is incredible. It's like it's like a hundred thousand people first off?

Brett: 1:26:24

the answer is now always 100. You make separate channels. You shouldn't even post your podcast clips on your main channel, like stop doing that. If you're doing that, you mean shorts, yes, well, the. Are you posting youtube clips like 10 minutes of? Stop doing that, you have to stop doing that.

Darren: 1:26:38

So I stopped doing that. About a year after my podcast with luke bellmer, which is in january. I just it just didn't feel congruent. Um, everyone was again I go back to everyone's just trying to be chris williamson. I was like am I doing this because I want to do it or do I'm doing this because chris williamson is doing it genuinely? And we always talk about this like it's like a massive lens in my coaching program.

Brett: 1:26:56

I'm like stop trying to be chris williamson I mean, he takes it the most seriously anybody. So I like. I think if there's anyone who's done it the hard way and learned and won through sheer skill and learning, it's him exactly like but there's one of them, there's one e-man, there's one hermosia rogan won because he was so early and consistent and casual and had a broad variety of wide variety of interests.

Brett: 1:27:15

Andrew huberman wins because he's actually a neuroscientist on productivity and speaks to a very analytical lens. Brian Johnson wins because he has exceptional results and is doing everything with data. But Chris Williamson probably won because of his genuine social acumen and taking everything so serious and learning all the skills, and you can explain why anyone wins. They're all different. It's all nuanced based off your set. But, yeah, separate the channels 100%. In my opinion, chris Williamson will tell you something different because it works for him, but in my opinion, you make each channel one specific format that's repeatable, because you need the click-through rate to increase, because everyone that watched your last video watch your next one.

Brett: 1:27:51

Now there's nuance of how like again, how deep your personal brand is. Are people watching for you or are people watching because they're extracting value from you? I think most people watch me because they extract value from me, not because they care about my life story. But that's also just the nature of how I've grown. It's always been teaching people the most modern way to do things, very objectively, without fluff of who I am. So that's just how what's worked for me. So that's why I do it that way.

Brett: 1:28:14

But you have to be self-aware enough to make that decision. But I would objectively say, always make a separate channel for different formats as of 2024, today, but then then my, then I'll give you the opposite advice of focus on one channel and just kill it with one channel and so like. If you're trying to sell, if you have like for me, I'm gonna start. I'm not gonna make my. I had to make the decision to. I think it'll be a better idea to run youtube ads on my youtube videos for people that are interested in youtube coaching and personal brands, instead of just making videos on it, just because I am attracting entrepreneurs who want that and they don't need some big convincing or eight hours of nurturing on YouTube. It's just easier to like use my channel as the social proof and then try to just run ads saying, hey, look at that thing, look at that thing. You want that?

Darren: 1:28:58

I'll show you how to do it, join my coaching program. So that's exactly what I'm doing. So I tried to use our podcast, the vessel of it, how we run it, how everything's done, as just like the poster boy, just in terms of like the authority frame, and then I don't necessarily need to teach you because all the lessons and been like, you can work in the agency, you join a coaching program or you can just get in the lead magnet in the ecosystem. So basically it's guys that are interested in online business space, specifically content businesses. That's why we kind of chime so well on this, because I just fucking love the idea of content to business. And then some guys then like okay, I want to learn more, whereas if I split focus, go from two episodes a week down to one or one every two weeks, does that make sense? And I know there's a big debate about how much episodes should we be putting out and so on I just think that for me it's splitting focus. I think that, like everything works.

Brett: 1:29:45

It's hard. It's hard Like building a YouTube channel is hard, let alone three. Like I can't imagine doing three. I can only do one.

Brett: 1:29:52

And that's why Iman has 300 you know he does really good people around him, yeah, like his. His Alex is awesome and he does all the vlogs and he understands the vision, so he's he might probably set the vision. And then Alex and he recruited pretty heavily to get Alex, and Alex is one of few people that can actually execute that vision very well. And then people are like everyone understands it's just good clarity, brand direction. That's why they choose the James Bond like character, so everyone gets it on the team transferring that vision very clearly. So, yeah, you have to put it all into one.

Brett: 1:30:24

In my opinion, though, like, at the end of the day, it's like the reason I am doing what I'm doing now and left what I was doing in the past, even though I was making good money, is because, like, if you look at the most successful people in the world, they typically got there from one big one. Very few people diversified their way to top 0.001%, and so it's like I'm trying to join the biggest ship and then bring all of the value, all of my skills, everything I've built up, into that one big thing the balloon at 10 times bigger than anything I can create independently with people that are equally skilled at their domain. The coolest thing about it is I'm seeing different intelligences is very, very cool so.

Darren: 1:31:03

So let's analyze that. So let's have a look at wop versus school versus other platforms like where. What are you thinking in terms of, like the future of the online space and how you can basically have the most seamless business in the space?

Brett: 1:31:18

so much to unpack here, what. So I I joined wop. I don't think I've ever even like communicate this on the internet, but I've joined wop so I've known them for a long time, pretty much since they started it, and there's like an inflection point where this is like a really cool fun opportunity and so I'm very excited about this. I don't know if I, if we, I don't know if I have time. I literally feel like I have to leave because I could like explain this whole thing. So I just think wop isn't a really cool moment in time where there's a lot of different platforms, similar like community platforms, education platforms, all of that, but there seems to be a lot. But there seems to be a moment that's happening. That's like the facebook moment, and I believe that we can pull that off with wop through complexity and we have a big vision. We've just raised a lot of money at a very big evaluation that should be public you can look it up after this but we are taking a really big swing and that was just really exciting for me, like it's not just a course or community platform and we're actually solving a really big problem in the core space, as I've talked about in this podcast.

Brett: 1:32:17

Like I think courses are objectively one of the most important things that you can invest in as an entrepreneur or as anyone trying to better your life.

Brett: 1:32:24

We all know knowledge is power and this is one of the few things that you can invest in that will truly make a difference in your day-to-day if you put the time in to actually learn new skills. Yet everyone on the internet, when you hear someone sells a course, they always either a think the person is a scammer or b have like made this mental decision to not buy courses because they're a scam through the consensus of the internet. Like you see all these like very miserable people bonding in the comments of like oh, just this course scamming guru knew it, instead of like really critically thinking like wait, how much money is he making? How is he doing that? Okay, I should like it's just weird that people are very against it. But I think the reason for that is because the software companies that facilitate courses kind of look past and provide them the tools to do gray area shady tactics. Like you can upload your own reviews.

Brett: 1:33:15

You can on any of these platforms because their tool they frame it as like we're just giving you the tool to fill in the real reviews you have from facebook or whatever, yeah, exactly so they're giving you these broad tools, but bad actors use them in negative ways to manipulate people's perception of them, and so that's why, like the underlying reason why, like I've always asked myself, like, why do people think courses are a scam? It is so important to learn. Colleges teach you really out-of-date stuff for way too much money, and now we have the opportunity for everyday people who are actually the best at their field, to just make a course and transfer that knowledge into your brain for 200 bucks. Yet people have pushed back against that, and I think it's because the technology companies that facilitate this are giving you tools that encourage and enable bad actors with very gray area, shady tactics like uploading your reviews. They kind of lie to you with the copy on the screen like order not complete, like there's like all these really small subtleties that after you go through it, you just feel weird as a consumer buying courses to the point where the whole world is like pushed back.

Brett: 1:34:16

And so I think we have a really cool opportunity to just demand trust in the info space and have this moment where there was before wop and there's after wop and you'll never buy a course if it's not on wop because you don't trust it. So, at the high level, that is our vision and that's why, like, we're really excited about me, because I am really passionate about pursuing constant knowledge and learning, and I just hate that everyone is so against courses because they feel like they're going to get scammed, and so that was what I saw and that's what I really want to help push with wop, but I'll talk much more about that in like a few months, once everything's actually rolled out yeah, man, and I think what's really cool there is like I was thinking the past couple months about will there be a swing back in the online business space like?

Darren: 1:34:54

will one like the money run out from the buyer perspective? Will we start seeing a drop or two? Will there be like a ton of regulation but software solves that? Does that make sense? Yeah, I think the free market will self-regulate.

Darren: 1:35:05

this is our next wave, like that can be, then that can be the next wave of entrepreneurs making more money, doing better and reshaping the frame because, like make money online space has a bad reputation for this subsection of people that act bad. Does that make sense? But this can be a huge another 2021 wave, does that?

Brett: 1:35:25

make sense? Yes, 100%. It's like how do we eliminate the bad actors from getting rewarded? Because right now, all that is rewarded is marketing Buy a Lamborghini, be flashy on the internet, say the craziest stuff to get attention and then people will buy your course. And that's what's getting rewarded, because the tools facilitate that, and so we're trying to. That's really the problem we're trying to solve, and the tools know that, but they're greedy, like that's how they're making their money. They are very conscious that almost probably more than half of the revenue is coming from very bad actors, but they don't get involved because they don't have the liability, because they're just a problem with that, and so we think that we're going to try to solve that and it's going to kind of change the way people perceive online education.

Darren: 1:36:03

Yeah, man, that's going to be sick. This was so awesome. Awesome dude, I appreciate you having me.

Brett: 1:36:07

This was fun, it's my favorite thing to talk about.