Kickoff Sessions

#259 Pat Flynn - 15 Years of Online Business Advice in 65 Mins

• Darren Lee • Episode 258

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Not many people know this, but Pat Flynn is the reason I started my podcast.

Back in 2020, I was broke, clueless, and desperate for a way out, I bought a $60 microphone. 

That mic? It came from an affiliate link on Pat Flynn’s website.

I binged watched every piece of content Pat had:

  • How to start a podcast
  • The best mics and software
  • Editing tools I’d never used before

Fast forward to 2025, and I just recorded episode 258 of my podcast—with Pat Flynn himself.

In this episode, Pat shares the lessons, failures, and surprises from 15 years of building online businesses—including generating over $10M in revenue.

We talk about:

  • How he built and grew Deep Pocket Monster to 1M subscribers
  • The importance of emotional connection in your content
  • Why small, vibrant communities are the future of business
  • The reality of staying relevant in a changing landscape

Is it blind luck? Or the compounding effect of 15 years in the game?

Pat breaks it all down.

If you’re building a content business or just starting out, this is an episode you can’t miss.


Check out Pat’s YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@patflynn/

My Socials:
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/darrenlee.ks
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/darren-lee1


(00:00) Preview
(00:30) Importance of Serving Your Audience
(03:03) How to Create Raving Fans
(07:02) The Power of Consistency and Experimentation
(12:38) Will AI Take Over Online Media?
(17:56) Why Video Podcasts Do Better 
(19:13) The Benefits of Podcasting
(23:19) Pat Flynn’s Short-Form Content Strategies
(28:29) Short Form vs Long-Form Content
(34:02) The Art of Storytelling and Emotional Engagement
(36:39) Building Community 
(39:17) Starting as a Newcomer in a Niche
(42:03) Understanding People and Building Loyalty
(45:57) Transitioning to Community-Based Learning
(51:52) Investing in Startups
(59:18) How to Get Sponsorships and Build Relationships
(01:02:01) The Importance of Thumbnails

Support the show

Pat Flynn:

Within four hours it had 325,000 views and it was the number three video in all of YouTube. It today has 15 million views and it has generated $72,000 in revenue From just ad revenue Just ad revenue alone. That is absolutely wild. There's no real penalty in quantity on short form, which is great, and I think that's where you win on short form is quantity. The past 28 days I just looked we generated on YouTube quantity. The past 28 days I just looked we generated on YouTube 14K in ad revenue just from shorts and an additional 5.3K on TikTok from the same exact videos.

Darren:

Before we start this podcast, I have one little favor to ask you. Can you please hit the subscribe button down below so we can help more people every single week. Thank you. Where I'd like to start is you've generated over 10 million in your journey across your online presence. If you were to really break that down, like what do you think the components are for doing that? Like what is it that made you the key person of influence, build that authority to generate that type of revenue.

Pat Flynn:

It didn't take me long when I started business and this was in 2008, to realize that the growth of your business and your own success is equivalent to how well you serve the audience you're serving, and so, along with that, you have to know who it is that you're serving, what it is that they need, what are their obstacles, what are their dreams, what are their ambitions, and the more that you can align with them, the better your results will be. And so I learned that really early on with my first business, which was an architecture business online helping people pass an exam. This was after I got laid off, and I remember and I wrote about this in my book Superfans a woman her name is Jackie. She was one of my first customers. She had bought a study guide that I sold for $19 through PayPal on this blog. I created that just held notes for my exam and started to get picked up on. Google and other forums found it.

Pat Flynn:

There weren't a lot of resources about this exam back in the day, and so Jackie purchased my exam guide and then, a month later, she took the exam. She passed, and she sent me this really kind note. She said, pat, like I wouldn't have passed without you. I've been studying for a very long time and nothing was sticking, but you finally made it happen and that felt great. I like seeing that I've been able to help people. But what I didn't expect was that within the next three to four weeks, I would see 25 additional customers come with the same URL at the end of their email. She had gone and told every single one.

Pat Flynn:

I don't know how she did it or what she did, but she got every person in the firm basically to purchase my guide and she could have just shared it for free. But she just wanted me to succeed as a result of me helping her. Because I helped her, she wanted to help me and I think it was Zig Ziglar. I later found out he has a quote that says you can get anything in life you want so long as you help other people get what they want. So I've always made it that Serve first default to generosity. I'm wearing the shirt right now and in some way, shape or form, it always comes back. It doesn't always come back right away, it doesn't always come back from the same person who you help, but the more that you put out there, the more. The universe just has this way of reciprocating.

Darren:

That's kind of the logic around podcasts too. It's the non-tangibles, it's the stuff that you can't really measure. And then six months, two years, four years down the line, that's when you get your ROI People put into their minds. They don't really understand that. That's like building the loyalty, building the community base, building the customer base. If you were to take that example specifically, because you can connect really strongly with your audience, especially like your customers, is there something you think you're doing that other people are not doing that's allowed that person to become a raving fan and turn into an evangelist and share it with 20 people?

Pat Flynn:

Yeah, I mean, a person doesn't become a fan the moment they find you right. They become a fan from the moments that you create for them over time. So it's understanding the path that they are on and you being the guide to help them get to where they want to go. And it starts with small wins. It starts with relatability, it starts with speaking the same language as your target audience. From there, they might then become a subscriber because they trust you a little bit more. They're not necessarily loyal fans yet, but they have investigated what you have to offer and they kind of like it. So they might be a follower on social or a subscriber on your email list. And at this point you want to try to connect them with other people. Show that there are other people like them that either you've helped or that are there going through the same journey. This is how you create connection and this is why people then become super fans, because they just get ingrained and sort of involved in the community. When you get people involved, they get invested right. They get invested in thinking about you, they get invested in the things that you have to offer and they want to go on that journey with you or go to where you are. And more than anything, and where I'm focusing a lot now these days, is community going along that journey with other people. And so, again, I kind of breezed over it. But this is the structure of how you create a superfan. It's by those moments you create over time. And it's also about having an opinion. It's about having personality, something that can draw a line in the sand, very sticky points of view that aren't just like trying to please everybody and this was a very hard thing for me to learn, because I am a people pleaser, I want to make everybody happy. But if I try to please everybody, I'm not going to create an opinion or personality strong enough for people to get behind right, because I'm just kind of going everywhere versus here's what I believe, here's what I am opinionated about, here is where I think we should focus. And if you want to come along the ride, come along the ride, and that's what a lot of people did.

Pat Flynn:

I think the other thing was not trying to pretend I was somebody. I wasn't. When I first started out, it was all about authenticity, and it still is. But in the beginning it was sort of unique to see somebody share no-transcript teaching and then also realizing over time and this doesn't happen right away. If you're a new content creator, you're not going to know the answer to this. What is your voice? You can only understand what that voice is when you put a voice out there and begin to start to navigate how it resonates with people. And it took a little bit of time but I started to realize that I was just like the regular guy trying to support my family, entrepreneur, teaching, business, not the Tim Ferriss, you know Silicon Valley bro or some internet guru who was living in a mansion and had Lamborghinis and Corvettes and stuff. I was just like I had a soccer mom van because we had young kids and I was like I just want to feed my family and have a good future, and I think a lot of people resonated with that. So all that combined definitely helped people connect with me early on.

Pat Flynn:

And then it's about continually delivering value, and I think that's where I stand out amongst many other people now, because I've been doing this for 16 years, since 2008. And I've been consistent. I've been showing up, I've been continuing to be authentic, I've been continuing to experiment, continuing to fail and share those results along the way and many people have come and many people have gone. Many people have pivoted and I've pivoted too, but I've just been always me, and because of that, there are people who will go to events that I'm at just to meet me, which is wild and I still think is awesome. There are people who buy new courses that I come out with and they don't even read the sales page. They're just like oh, next course from Pat Flynn, I'm in, and it's an amazing thing. That takes time, it takes vulnerability, it takes also just understanding analytics. There's some data and things like that that's important that I know we're going to get into.

Pat Flynn:

So, yeah, it's been a fun ride and still today, even after 16 years, I feel like I'm still in the beginning of things. There's new stuff coming that I can get behind and get excited about, and I think that's the other component of this. Before I finish rambling is I've always tried to find the fun in all of this. It's helped me stick with it and I make it a game sometimes to make it fun. If it's boring, I try to play with. Well, how long is it going to take me and can I get faster the next time? Right, and I try not to compare myself to others. I try to compare myself to myself last week, to myself last month, to myself last year. That's what drives me forward.

Darren:

Well, for you, it's really like a personal pursuit and even though you're doing different channels now and you're trying different things, I would still say it's still the same, because it's just Pat Flynn exploring his curiosity, sharing what he's doing well and then sharing the failures along the way. And I'm being quite similar. I've struggled to share the downsides, because everyone wants to be perceived as what they know, what they know. So when you're you're showcasing okay, I don't have it all figured out that's something you come to grips with, and I just released a podcast with Chris Stowe last week and his whole thesis is like understanding yourself. Like the second, you start to kind of understand yourself. These are my shortfalls, this is what I'm working on this, what I'm working towards. You can be completely open and honest with that journey and I think that's why I've really related to someone like yourself, chris, eric Zhu. These type of entrepreneurs are different, so I've really made this observation because I've recorded 250 episodes. I've met a lot of these guys and the guys that are playing long-term games, or long-term people. They actually play this game completely differently and that's why, for you, you still have the excitement. It's 10pm in San Diego. You're hopping on a podcast with me. That's the way you want to set this up.

Darren:

So even for myself, there's a few things that I could have niched further down. I could have been a bit more specific, I could be more direct, but it may have taken the fun out of it and I may have ended up in the podcast graveyard, for instance, right. So there's like a positive and negative always to every reaction along those lines. Now I want to ask you specifically about that vulnerability piece, because I think that's what it's really interesting. I'm 28. The people in my space that are growing really quickly. They have that more authority frame. They're trying to project themselves in authority and not showcasing their losses, not showcasing that there's a can improve. How do you think about that? Because for you, you've been much more humble and they're neglecting a lot of the downfalls and, as a result of that, they're not really they're not really connecting with people. Does that make sense? It's almost like they're up on a pedestal, as like Batman, effectively, and everyone else is below them.

Pat Flynn:

It's unrealistic, I mean. I think that's the thing. We are all human, we all make mistakes, and if you see somebody who's just perfect, you're just like what's wrong with that, right? And so I think, I think I mean it's why I think, in Japanese gardens they include a few weeds here and there, because it's like if it's too perfect, it's kind of unreal, it's it's unnatural.

Pat Flynn:

And so I've always leaned into my vulnerabilities. They make me who I am, they make me unique. But I also also know my strengths and I think it's important to, as you share vulnerabilities and as you become more honest with your audience. If you wanted to share, you don't have to share everything. I think it's just important to have some level of oh yeah, well, that didn't work, and that's okay. I'm not perfect and here's how we handled it Right, you don't have to cry about those mistakes. You don't have to. I mean you could if that makes you feel better. But what I mean is like I think it's that there's a balance. Right, you understand your vulnerabilities, but then you lean into your strengths, you learn from those mistakes, and I think it's inspiring for people to see somebody who they look up to who also makes a mistake but then bounces back from it.

Pat Flynn:

I think there was a study that was done with like hotels that hotels got higher ratings when they made a mistake but then corrected, versus just like perfect hotels, and so I think it's important to be open and have just honest conversations. I think that's really what it's about Always being honest, and that's what I love about the podcast medium you can have an honest conversation, you can be vulnerable and just just chat about it. Right, we're not editing this other than like the cool videos and stuff. But like, the conversation is the conversation, and so it is what it is, and I think that's what makes us connect with each other. And I think that's now more important than ever, because AI is here chat, gpt, claude and all these things that can spit out this information. That once was valuable, it was once scarce. Now it's at our fingertips and it's coming to us as if it's a human. So what are those things that AI is not going to do and not offer us? Those are the things that people will connect with, because that's going to be what's left, that's human, and those things are the mistakes and vulnerabilities.

Pat Flynn:

Those things are the stories that we tell, wrapping that information in a way that is impactful, that creates emotion in some way, shape or form, and the silliness and jokes and just the personality behind it. Those are the things that I'm leaning into, I'm teaching my students to lean into, I'm teaching my kids to lean into. I'm like, okay, you want to be a coder, that's cool, but ChatGPT can do that in a minute. How are you going to be different? It's like we live. You want to be a coder, that's cool, but like ChatGPT can do that in a minute. How are you going to be different? Right, it's like we live in such a different world than when I started in 2008, when it was just blogging and you could just title something with a keyword and get traffic and then sell something on top of that.

Darren:

It's so different now and let's dive into that, because I'm in the exact same position as you that, because I'm in the exact same position as you, I think the podcast medium is the counter argument to the AI approach. It's like everything is a Zapier flow your message is being responded, your AI agent and everything. So this is bringing it back to natural, more organic.

Pat Flynn:

Yeah, although have you seen Notebook LM? Have you seen that yet? No, no, no, tell me more. Okay, so check this out. There's a tool that Google came out with called Notebook LM. Imagine you're a student and you take notes from a lecture. You can drop those notes into Notebook LM, press a button and then it will create a podcast of two people having a conversation to help you learn the things that you wrote in your notes, and it's almost discernible. It just sounds like two people having a conversation. It's the wildest thing.

Pat Flynn:

So even podcasting, with information behind it as input, is becoming even more human. So, to take that even further, where you were going, right, podcasting, we have these real people having real conversations. Now, even that's gonna be mixed in with AI a little bit. So what are the things within our conversation, like we're having now, that will help us ensure that we are connecting with real people?

Pat Flynn:

Because we are real people and it's the stories we tell, the way we do it, our personality, it's the little inside jokes that we have with our communities, these little Easter eggs that only people who are in our community can understand, and these are the kinds of things that I'm developing with, like my Pokemon community that I launched during the pandemic and it's just like become this phenomenon of a community that now involves live events with thousands of people flying in and paying to nerd out on Pokemon twice a year. It's called Card Party. We have two next year, one in Tampa Bay and another one in Seattle, and it's like they're going nuts because that human to human connection is so real. Anyway, sorry I derailed you, but Notebook LM is such a dope tool, but it's also scary.

Darren:

Do you want to grow and monetize your podcast but you don't know where to begin? Have you tried all the tricks and hacks but nothing has worked? Have you been wasting time, money and energy and seeing an analytics chart with no growth? That's where Vox comes in. We've been helping podcasts grow and monetize their shows for many years. We've grown shows to over 100 million views done over 10 million downloads generate, over $2 million in only the last year alone, and we can help you grow and monetize your own podcast. We've had some shows go from absolutely zero. We've had some of the biggest influencers in the world come to us to help and improve their show. So if you want to learn exactly our podcast Grow Flywheel and exactly how we can do this for you and completely replicate success, schedule a call right down below myself and we can go through the exact model for you and to grow your podcast this year. And we'll dive deep into the Pokemon community, because that's the perfect example of a niche community of people that are all similar, that all vibe with one idea, like everything that you've been teaching people. That is an example of you building.

Darren:

But before we get there, I do want to dive into how you think about your podcast specifically now in terms of is it still natural to you? In terms of like, are you still keeping it organic like this, or have you? Or what do you think about, like the YouTube approach, which is, you know, super edited, almost a controversial, almost there to catch guests, almost there to it's just, it's like I call it a reality TV show. So I'm trying to go counter to all of this, counter to all the AI approach, because I see the industry of podcasting becoming honestly like a reality TV show and that's the reason why I'm putting a very hard foot on the other approach.

Pat Flynn:

There's room for all of it. I think there are people who just love watching reality TV we know this and there's a space for that but there's also people who hate that and want the real information from real people, and I think that, no matter which method you choose, I think the idea is how can you create the best version of that for the content that you have in the audience that you're trying to build? So you know, I think there's there's room for that. But the video the video stuff's interesting. We're actually going to start experimenting with that in 2025, to be honest, because the reach opportunity on YouTube is so much bigger than the silo of just Apple podcasts and Spotify. Um, it's going to be an experiment. It could completely fail, but we are going to dedicate three months of resources to it to see if it works or not, and I feel like the conversations are going to be similar, but, knowing it's on video, it might change a little bit.

Pat Flynn:

Definitely, the hooks at the beginning are going to be way more important On YouTube. You have to hook people within the first three seconds or you're done, which is why you see podcasts like Diary of a CEO. The first minute is like a Netflix trailer. It's like you're getting all these little hints of things that are coming and then half sentences that you're like, wait, what was he going to say? And you have to watch. And it's almost like, in a way, because of short form content and what it's done to our brains and our attention spans. It's almost like in order to get a person to commit to long form, you gotta short form get their interest in the beginning, right. And so it's like there's another person, Ramit Sethi, who does this really well. He's the only person I've seen who's done a really successful remote podcast, but on YouTube. And it's because he spends a minute in the beginning talking about what's about to go down and he interviews couples and their money problems and he gets real and so he'll show tidbits and parts and like a woman crying and the man getting upset and like all this stuff and you're like, okay, I have to watch this now, right. Whereas before, when I started podcasting in 2010, you could talk for five minutes in the beginning about your breakfast and you'd be fine because there was nothing else to listen to.

Pat Flynn:

Now, I mean, podcasting technically is still early, in my opinion, with the number of podcasts that are active. I mean it's just about a million now that are active, which is nothing in comparison to how many blogs there are, YouTube channels or anything of podcasts that are active. I mean it's just about a million now that are active, which is nothing in comparison to how many blogs there are, YouTube channels or anything, but it's just a different medium. But once you get a person in, whether it's video or audio, you can build incredible loyalty because you're going deeper and that's something that people are craving. Certain people are craving deeper today, deeper, more real, and it's our job as podcast hosts to not just ask surface level questions. And I think already I can tell you're really good at this because you are going deeper into the topics we're talking about, versus just the same questions in every episode and just kind of the same old thing. I mean, I think the gold lies deep and you have to dig for it.

Darren:

And I'm happy to offer some like insight on this too, because I guess the guys that I've been interviewing are the guys that you know get a lot of requests and a lot of them say that on YouTube especially, they're getting caught out, they're going on these shows and guys are trying to catch them out hosts. So I kind of say beforehand I'm like hey, this isn't an FBI interrogation, I'm not here to catch you out. You know we're gonna have fun. I just say that like, basically, I'm not gonna ask you the same seven questions that you're gonna be asked and they just you can see the relief they're like and this happens like very, very frequently.

Darren:

So the way I kind of think about this is the fact that we actually doubled down on YouTube because of the reach component, because personal, you know, my personal experience was audio was so hard to grow organically, probably because I didn't really know the components, whereas on YouTube in 2020, 2021, it just well. 2022, especially, it just kind of flung really well Introducing introduction of short form. The conversion mechanism from short to long form obviously wasn't amazing, but it just gave top of funnel to give that appreciation and then people would consume when they're cleaning their car in the gym and so on. So on audio. So it just felt like a very strong pursuit and I guess I was a little bit early on that. So that's the reason why we doubled down on. We're just doing video for a lot of people video podcasts, so you would recommend that.

Pat Flynn:

That was kind of an interest Today.

Darren:

Oh, 100%, 100, but. But there's a. There's an element of uh, complexity though, so this was where it gets a little bit. Interesting is the fact that, um, so I, we have been really focused on entrepreneurs, because they just kind of see it much more of like a long-term approach versus like a quick win. So the logic here from my perspective was, like on youtube, we need to simplify everything as much as possible. So if you're in in New York or San Diego or LA, just go into the studio, get a studio recording, because it's so difficult to set everything else up, there's so much friction. So it's almost like how do we eliminate friction If you have the budget? If you don't, completely fine right.

Darren:

But it was about putting those components in place to allow someone to go in and record, maybe twice, once a month for two episodes, and then the next 30 days is a continuation of improving those episodes, releasing those episodes, refining them, writing newsletters, writing individual posts and going back to what you were saying earlier about people recognize you for your small nuances in your tonality and whatnot. What I've observed is when people go on guest podcasts, the host will therefore re-quote their nuances to them. So something I always talk about is like the infinite game. So if I ever go on a guest podcast, people always say the same things that I always say back to them. I think that's what's important is, you build up those key moments effectively and I think, through youtube and through short form, that that becomes just easier. It just becomes a lot easier to get that traction top of funnel.

Pat Flynn:

For sure and you can use short form and social to test right. There's no real penalty in quantity on short form, which is great, and I think that's where you win on short form is quantity. I mean I've been seeing on a new shorts channel again in the Pokemon space posting daily. I mean I've been seeing it on a new Shorts channel again in the Pokemon space posting daily and it's across three short-form channels. We've had in the last 28 days 150 million views. It's absolutely wild. But in the beginning first 20 days it was crickets and then just took off on all three platforms.

Darren:

I don't think that's you, though. I think that's actually YouTube, though warming to content and finding your avatar. I don't think that's you, though. I think that's actually YouTube, though warming to content and finding your avatar, like, I don't think that's a you problem though.

Pat Flynn:

No, I mean, I just knew it just would take time. That's why I didn't give up on day 19. I was just like I'm going to see this through for three months. Three months is usually the amount of time I give something to like really test it and test any algorithms or anything like this. I used the same approach when it was like SEO was like a thing it still is a thing, but like it used to be that thing if you were just blogging. So three months saw some results within the first couple of weeks, and then now just that Shorts channel alone is, you know, we're monetized on YouTube, we're monetized on TikTok.

Pat Flynn:

What's interesting is those videos. Now on YouTube you can have shorts that are longer than 60 seconds, but for the longest time it was under 60 seconds. So I would film for YouTube. Videos would be 57, 58 seconds and I'd extend it two seconds at the end or like slow something down by 0.9 X just to reach a minute so that I can monetize on TikTok. Same video, just a part is a little bit slower, so it can get over a minute so that you can get monetized on TikTok.

Pat Flynn:

And so the past 28 days I just looked we generated on YouTube 14K in ad revenue just from shorts and an additional 5.3K on TikTok from the same exact videos and zero on Instagram because you had to be grandfathered into the feed-based monetization on Instagram from a while back. Now it's just like subscriptions and GIFs, which I don't get any of that. But the Instagram following is growing. But that's just the Shorts channel and it's interesting because I was so against Shorts for so long because I was like you can't build a loyal audience on it Like long against shorts for so long because I was like you can't build a loyal audience on it Like longs all the way, like longs build long relationships. And I compared it to Halloween candy, right? Shorts are just handing out candy at Halloween and the kids go to the next door and they don't even remember you, right?

Darren:

That's what it was.

Pat Flynn:

But now I still agree that long form is better and CPMs and RPMs are much, much higher. You can build long form relationships there, but you can also do it on shorts. If you show up every day and become a part of a person's life and you're not just creating random videos, you create some series that people can expect every day. And now when I post it's interesting because I post at 8.30 PM Pacific time at night here In the beginning as soon as I post, it's interesting because I post at 8.30 pm Pacific time at night here In the beginning as soon as I post, probably within two minutes I'll see at least 100 comments.

Pat Flynn:

25% of them say oh, I can go to sleep now, I've been waiting for this and I can go to sleep. It's literally a part of their daily routine and so I've become a part of their daily life and so I've become a part of their daily life. As a result, and because I'm showing up daily, it's day 107. Today, episode 107 came out Like okay, those minutes add up just like one long form video. And it's insane now because I for those short videos. I know I'm just kind of bouncing around, so I apologize, but no, I like I'm just kind of bouncing around, so I apologize.

Darren:

No, I like the idea, I like the talk process. Work ahead.

Pat Flynn:

Yeah, so on the shorts, I hired Music Radio Creative, which is a great company. You can buy jingles from them and they have a real human being on their end that they find that fits whatever you're asking for. They do podcast jingles and all this stuff. If you don't know them, you should know them. I can connect you to Mike and Isabella. They're great. They supply a lot of audio for my own students as well.

Pat Flynn:

But I hired them to do a jingle, and this jingle was in the format of like a almost like a commercial jingle. It's like should I open it or should I keep it sealed? And that's at the beginning of every episode. It's just like one second, but it poses a question Should I open it, this pack of Pokemon, or should I keep it sealed? And so it poses a question. You need to know the answer.

Pat Flynn:

So you wait to the end of the video, because I opened most of them and you see the value in whether or not I actually got a good card or not. And at the end, depending on what I got, it's like oh no, you should have kept it sealed, or yay, you actually got something good. And it's literally the same jingles every time. Now people are saying that they're commenting my jingle on other people's videos. Now they're saying it in stores when they're opening packs, because the store owners will tell me that people are singing it and it's just become a part of the culture of Pokemon. Now, this phrase that I've made and it's it's just so crazy how this happened.

Darren:

Why is that? We have to break that down. We have to break that down Community, the retention, like the coming back, like the, the thousand true fans that do come back to your episode. Because I would think that on short form, it would only be a younger demographic. This is just completely assumption based, but because they kind of grew up with short form versus like an older demographic, whereas for you, I guess your audience in a pokemon niche and this is so interesting this is the best example ever. So you've long form for short, for Pokemon niche, you've short form and even million, even million, yeah, and even million subscribers, okay. So first question is why are they not, why are they not on one channel?

Pat Flynn:

So I had shorts on Deep Pocket Monster to begin with, but it was attracting the wrong audience it was. It was going, it was going to mainstream. And I know that might sound weird, but I did a video where I opened a pack and it was like a bad card and eventually it got 15 million views. Like 98 of the comments are like why is a grown man opening pokemon cards get a job? This is stupid. You deserve to lose money like all this stuff. That was like obviously people just flipping through and the algorithm pushed these videos out, so that was not translating to long form views at all. It was like it was not working. So we stopped shorts and we just focused on longs and then we really leaned into it. We started to dig into the analytics. We used to do these mystery box openings where I'd buy a multi-hundred dollar box on eBay. I didn't know what was inside and I'd open it. That concept was pretty good, right, because it's like oh, what's inside? And we go see and we see if we got the value back. And we started to notice that after a few of them, looking at the retention graphs, that there were a few moments where the retention graphs were flat and that means you're holding people's attention right, it's not going down. And we noticed that what was flat was when I would buy these mystery boxes and there was a binder inside like a folder with Pokemon cards, and we're like, oh my gosh, it's interesting what would happen if we did a video where we just bought binders, like I'm gonna buy two binders and compare them and it's like, not a mystery box, but I'm just buying binders. So we did that and it was the flattest line we've ever seen on our channel up to that date. And that video saw over a million views and we're like, whoa, this is crazy. And then we started to experiment. We said, okay, well, what would happen if we filmed the video trying to fill up a binder and finish a set, like, let's keep the binder idea, but how can we make it more interesting? Well, let's start with it empty and see if we could fill it up and complete a set within a certain amount of time. So there was a set called brilliant stars. I tried to finish it in 24 hours. So I like gave, I like took time off work and everything to try to finish this in time. And I actually actually did and I went all around San Diego and I was making calls and going to card shops and it was a fun little like almost vlog style tour around all of San Diego. But we made it dramatic. We had a timer, we played into that story and that video, within three weeks, already had a million views and it was blowing up. So we started to do more of that.

Pat Flynn:

More challenges Could I do a 48 hour challenge? Could I do a one hour challenge? Could I do a whatever? And now the challenges are one. If not, it is the strongest bucket of content that we create because we have different buckets. We have the mystery box bucket, which we had, and then we have buying collections from people bucket, and then we have these challenges, and these challenges have been absolutely blowing up. One of them we did when I went to Hawaii. I did a 48 hour challenge to finish this really popular set and within four hours it had 325,000 views and it was the number three video in all of YouTube. It today has 15 million views and it has generated $72,000 in revenue. Just that one video, sorry, sorry, sorry, from just ad revenue, just ad revenue alone. Yeah, that is absolutely wild.

Darren:

Sorry, why is the CPM so high? On that it's not.

Pat Flynn:

Is that normal? It's low CPM. So my business channel, pat Flynn which, by the way, I've had since 2009,. It's not even at a half million yet. And then I start this new one. And then everybody's like oh my gosh. And I tell people when they You're taking the lessons. Though, that's the logic For sure, that's what I was going to say and they're like oh my gosh, like this was an overnight success. I'm like no dude, I started on YouTube in 2009.

Darren:

This channel started in year 12 of that right Dude. I was in high school in 2009. Oh my gosh.

Pat Flynn:

So the CPMs are $5 to $6 per thousand, whereas on my business channel it's like I've had up to $45, $50 CPM. It's just the views are so much lower and it's like I've had up to $45, $50 CPM. It's just the views are so much lower. And it's because of two things. Number one just the number of people watching these videos. Right, that's providing the revenue, but why are so many people watching this? Well, here's a sample of some of the comments we get.

Pat Flynn:

I don't even watch or care about Pokemon, but I can't stop watching these videos. I never knew I'd be so interested in Pokemon until I watched this video. So that's one part. Right, we can capture attention through storytelling. It doesn't matter what the subject matter is. You can tell a story about anything and if you tell it well, you can hold attention. So we have leaned into story, right. And number two some other comments are Like on that same video, the one from Hawaii, not me crying over a person finishing a Pokemon set. Why am I crying? Who cut the onions? All this stuff Bringing emotion into it. Right, when you get people to move or feel moved, you can get people to move, and that has been one of the biggest lessons in our story and packaging and all this stuff.

Darren:

How do you think about story selling as a component of that?

Pat Flynn:

Story selling is the way selling should be done, in my opinion, because when you tell a story, you understand who is listening. So I guess there's good story selling and bad story selling. Right, like a version of bad story selling would be like I went to an event once in. This is a real story. I'm not like telling a story. Well, it is a story.

Pat Flynn:

But I went to an event in 2013 and I didn't know, but it was a pitch fest in a car accident and I almost died and all this stuff, or I had cancer and all this stuff.

Pat Flynn:

And I came back and now I'm selling this ten thousand dollar product, right, and they would capture the emotion, like literally tears in the audience, and then they wouldn't just randomly say the ten thousand dollar product, but they would lead into it and it transitioned and you know, all of a sudden people got up, went to the back of the room and paid 10 grand to be a part of this thing and it just felt so slimy.

Pat Flynn:

It just was like you've, you've in a way I don't want to say manipulated, but kind of, because when you get a person into an emotional state, they don't necessarily always make the right decisions, whereas there is good story selling, in my opinion, which is you have a character in that story that a person can relate to, who overcomes a challenge that you also have and, without even asking, you want to be a part of that too. Right, the story does the selling for you, and that's exactly why this video and all the challenge videos hit so hard with people who don't even care about pokemon, because everybody can relate to trying to complete something and falling short. Everybody can relate to what it's like to find that last missing piece and the joy that comes with completion. Those are the human qualities that we're leaning into in that story.

Darren:

It just so happens to be about cardboard with cartoons on it it's because you don't have the intention of sticking an offer down someone's throat as well, because I went through the channel and I couldn't find any direct product. You had a few affiliate links, which are just happy coincidence. People want to go use it, but there was no like specific offer that I was like, okay, hey, go buy my high ticket program from here. And I think going into that at a subconscious level for you just allows you to play the game differently, because you're there to like literally serve people.

Pat Flynn:

I had the luxury of not having to make money from it. You are right. I'm just gonna be honest. This was a side fun project that my kids got me into. In 2020, during the pandemic, they started getting to Pokemon. I went headfirst into the YouTube community and started modding for different creators and started getting to know who people were, and then had the idea to create the channel. I didn't have the idea to create the channel right away, and now I'm at a point where Pokemon invites me to events as an influencer. They send me product before other people get it Sometimes.

Pat Flynn:

I got invited to Japan to go to Worlds to represent as a creator and I put on these events, like Card Party, where I invite the other creators in the space. I have a great relationship with pretty much all of them and they want to go. I don't even have to pay them. They want to come because I understand how this works. People crave connection, and anybody who's into Pokemon probably knew what it was like to grow up with it and be bullied. Well, here's an event that you can come. That's a safe space for you to connect with the other people who were also bullied too, but you know that you're going to feel welcomed here and that is the cool thing about the community that we've created and it's become an event that feels more like camp, because people are making friends and like I'm going to see you next year and let's like chat and exchange numbers and stuff. It's such a cool thing. And you know, I'm 41. My office has Pokemon all over it right now, like I like stuff is shoved everywhere just to not be on camera right now. Um, I get fan mail. Now I'm getting recognized on the street.

Pat Flynn:

The the probably most interesting interactions I have are when a parent comes up to me and says that they heard my voice on their son or daughter's iPad. They're like I know that voice. Wait, what is? Why is Pat Flynn playing with Pokemon cards? I listen to his business podcast and then they get to connect as a result of that. It's it's just such a crazy thing. They get to connect as a result of that. It's just such a crazy thing.

Pat Flynn:

But again, it all stems back to leaning into who are these people and what are they interested in? What do they want? It's interesting too, because when I came into the space, I didn't even grow up with Pokemon. I grew up with Magic the Gathering, I played a different game and so I was a newbie. So, going into the space, I'm like, okay, well, I don't know everything, I can't pretend to be an expert here. It'll be very clear very early that I'm just regurgitating stuff.

Pat Flynn:

Other people say I can't compete on collection because I'm just starting mine.

Pat Flynn:

So what can I compete on? I can compete on story, I can compete on owning the fact that I'm new, and that's how I position myself. Hey guys, I'm new here and whatever I learn I'm gonna share with you, and my first videos were more educational about what I'm learning as a collector and mistakes that I made and purchases I shouldn't have made, and then mystery boxes, and then the binders, and then the challenges and stuff, and then live every single week on Monday. We've made Monday's days to look forward to on the channel and I go live pretty much every Monday at 4.30 pm Pacific, and this past week we had 3,500 people concurrently watching me open cards and give them away. It's insane. And then we have this community of people who pay $2.99 a month to be a member so that they can get access to a Discord channel and special emojis that they get to use in the chat that others cannot, and we have 4,500 people paying $2.99 a month. It's like another $10,000, basically after YouTube takes its cut.

Darren:

And I'm not even selling anything, it's an interesting observation if you compare it to the architecture exam helping people solve a specific problem, which is a great way to build a business right. Solve a specific problem for a specific user that's easy to find online, but this is just like a side quest. Basically, that also works really well. So it's almost like, yes, you can do what the business book tells you to do, but you over here have accumulated all of your skills and interest and curiosity and then, as a result, that became its own business. So it's almost like you, you know. It's like the Henry Ford quote is like whether you think you can or you can't, you're right. So you just started doing it, you started enjoying it, you followed on the pursuit Maybe I could build a community, maybe I could do this, and the assembly worked really well. But that's the beauty of it, how it all kind of worked serendipity.

Darren:

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Pat Flynn:

Yeah, and I think the reason it works is because I understand people. Now I understand psychology of people and what brings people together. There's so many interesting I mean stories, right. Like we have this coin that we made when we hit milestones that we give out to people who win prizes, who win giveaways, and you know just some of my community members get access to them. Like people go crazy over these coins. They're just metal coins that say my logo and the subscriber count, and there's only like 500 of each of those milestones made and I've seen them on ebay for sale. It's kind of wild. So like these little trinkets, and I know, like the military does, that they have these coins that signify certain things. It's almost like a badge and and those things work really well.

Pat Flynn:

One of the mystery boxes I opened randomly had a dish rag in it and it, I think, was placed in there for like cushion to keep the card safe or whatever, but it was like this ugly green it's. I don't know where it is right now, but it's this ugly, green and yellow dish rag and so I could have just edited that out because it doesn't belong there, but I know that that would be an interesting thing. So instead we leaned into it. So when I opened it and then the cameras are rolling, I smell it and I'm like what is this doing in here? And then I use it to wipe the table. It comes back again Two videos later. I just wipe the table with it, I don't even mention it. People are like, hey, isn't that the dish rag from the mystery box? And then eventually dish rag has. We put googly eyes on it and now it's an emoji. And now people, when they see it I don't even have to say anything, they know because they were part of that culture and they it's like almost an insider thing. They're like, oh, that's the, you know, that's, that's the Dishrag we even have. Actually let me show you.

Pat Flynn:

So we started doing timed challenges and so we were like okay, how can we make the timed challenges more interesting and intense? Well, let's have like a real timer. It also shows that it's real. And so I bought a kitchen timer and I put googly eyes on it and I have eyebrows on it, so I can make it like mad if I want to, like that. How do you think about these things? Well, my producer, producer dan, who's worked with me for a while now he was just like, we need to name it. Like, what do we name? Just name it steve or something.

Pat Flynn:

Steve is a celebrity on the channel now because he shows up and we, we, we turn him into a character in the stories, like steve is the evil villain that we're trying to defeat and all this stuff. And he has a name. Like people want plushies of Steve. Now, like they said that they like they would pay money for Steve plushies. It's just a kitchen timer with eyes, but we've weaved it into a story, turned it into something relatable, a character that forces you to try to get something done in in time. Um, who's always overlooking you? And we, we bring him into the camera and we, you know it's just. And the reason he has teeth right now is because I just finished a halloween uh video that he was involved with, so he was like a vampire or something.

Pat Flynn:

It sounds so stupid and that's the cool thing, because if you're not in the community, yeah, it does sound stupid, but if you're in it, you don't get it right. Yeah, you don't. It's like no, we, we get it, we know we're in, we're insiders and anybody else who gets it you're. You're like best friends already right. You have something to connect with it's. It's what it's. It's why, when you go to like a sporting game, and your team hits the winning run or whatever, or scores the winning touchdown, you're high-fiving, you're hugging people who you don't even know, simply because they're wearing the same ball cap, they're just wearing the same colors, and so already, without even saying a word, there's strength and if you are the creator who facilitates those interactions, who creates that stadium or that safe space for those people to come in, I mean it's magic.

Pat Flynn:

It's absolutely magic, and this is why, in 2022, we switched at SPI, our business model from our online courses that we were selling. We were selling them individually, right For hundreds of dollars, and they were selling and they were working, but we knew that that wasn't the best way to serve our audience anymore. Times were changing and people were more likely to get better results if they were to do it together, and so we switched our business model from selling one-off courses to a community where those courses now exist. We call them community-powered courses and every once in a while, we take people through those courses that are digital, that are already there, pre-recorded, but we take people through like an eight-week cohort or a 10-week cohort to go through them together and we found a 2.8x higher chance of uh or or likelihood or or completion rate basically a three times better completion rate by doing it that way.

Pat Flynn:

And in the beginning we lost money because of that right. We were selling tens of thousands of dollars per month of these courses and now it's like well, currently it's like 66 a month, uh paid quarterly, but $66 a month, so we're losing money because people have access to all those courses for $66 a month. So our deal was well, if we can get people to not just take one course but to see the pathway through each of the courses, that would help them along their way, and if they were to meet friends and we and if we connected them with a mastermind group inside, we know that over the long haul we will have earned more revenue from that user than if we just got the upfront payment. And that's exactly what's happening. We have like a 4% churn rate or 6% churn rate or something, because people are finding they come for the content, they stay for the community, they don't realize that too, right, that's what's interesting.

Darren:

They don't realize how much they need that accountability in one regard, but also community to work through it because, similar to you different company angle on top of the agency we have a done with you component, which is still kind of high ticket, I would say that. But the logic in it is the fact that they have a client success manager. They're very much more like hands-on and because we're kind of not keeping tabs on them but making sure they hit certain roadmaps, they're actually working through it because, you know, completion rate of programs is incredibly low, right, because of the fact that it's probably overwhelmed. Uh, the more one the ones I do with people, the more I realize that people just feel overwhelmed. But when you kind of create a vision for them and then they're, I think what's interesting is the fact that if they feel overwhelmed, but they feel overwhelmed with other people, it's almost like the community come together and they know that they need to start showing up to the calls, working in communities, actually engaging with other people.

Darren:

And, dude, I got to say to you as well, like we started using Circle because of you too, because I was using a very fragmented approach of Slack and Tinkific. It was a mess and I integrated everything to Circle. I actually want to ask you about this too. And then I've always been using ConvertKit, which is now Kit as well. So that's been crazy man, honestly, like you're. So you were a seed investor in those companies, correct?

Pat Flynn:

No, I was. I am an advisor for those companies a little bit different so I came on early to Basically in exchange for advice. I have become a shareholder, so I'm on the board of these companies.

Darren:

So what made you spot those companies? Because that was early, very early for those companies, especially Buzzsprout too.

Pat Flynn:

The first company that I I'm not an advisor for Buzzsprout, just FYI. I'm just a fan of theirs and think they do great work. The first company I advised was Leadpages, clay Collins. The CEO approached me and said, hey, do you want to be an advisor? And I said I have no idea what that means. And he said, okay, well, here's how it works. In exchange for this many shares, which are worth this much and hopefully will be worth more in the future, right, that's the play. I just want to get on a call with you once a month and if you know anybody that can help the company, you give us those relationships and if anything happens and like we need your help, like you're there for us. And I was like, yeah, sure, let's do it. And so we did that.

Pat Flynn:

Then Nathan Berry, ceo of ConvertKit Now Kit approached me in a similar way. He took me out to coffee, told me he was creating this email service provider. I was on Aweber at the time and then I switched to Infusionsoft and then Conkit came on. I was like this is exactly what I need and I said I'd be happy to, and I was able to take that company from five figures arr or uh, mrr, to to six figures, um, mrr, and it's now going crazy and he credits me a lot for the start of the company in terms of giving it that surge in the blogosphere at the time, which I always appreciate.

Pat Flynn:

And then Circle Circle was started by two ex-Teachable employees. I was an advisor for Teachable as well, sort of a competitor to Thinkific, and Teachable was acquired and that was cool because, you know, I don't get paid for these things as advisor. You get paid when the company is acquired or sells or ipos, and so I got a nice big check from teachable in that acquisition. So I'm no longer an advisor there. But, uh, I knew that the guys over at circle who were former teachable uh employees were creating something amazing and they were basically right at the start of their journey when they reached out to us and we had a conversation and had a chat together and my partner Matt, we were like man, if we get in early on this, we can actually influence how it is shaped for the community that we want to build and, you know, give them like direct insight and feedback, like as it's being built, and they were very open to that and we worked out a deal.

Pat Flynn:

So I'm an advisor for Circle as well. Matt, my partner and I are advisor combined to over, I think, 13 companies right now, which is great. One of the other companies I advised you might know was Squadcast actually, and then they got acquired by Descript recently, so I got a nice. I didn't have as many shares in that one, but I got a nice payday for that one as well, for the advice I gave and the connections I made and those kinds of things. So it's been a neat journey. It's a fun way to have my hand in many companies without having to do the work to build the company, if that makes sense and I tried to build.

Darren:

I tried to build a variation of squad cast on one stage, like early on in 2020. Um, I just always video, just very visual guy, and I was trying to build like software myself. I come from a software background, so I was my that was my side of it and I was like, look, this is way too complicated to tackle as, like a young, 22 year old, I got to figure it. I got to figure out how to podcast first and then build secondly on top of it. But you've picked some good horses, though. Right In terms of like circle is amazing though Circle is.

Darren:

It's so funny because I think there's someone who's not in the space who hasn't seen how fragmented the industry is. You just see a circle and like, oh okay, it's a community and courses, but, and courses. But if you understand how difficult it is to combine those components, get people to work through stuff, communicate elegantly, make it look almost like Facebook, the interaction is so clean, the UI is so good, you can white label it. I think we're actually going to white label it in the new year as a plan. That's kind of our goal. But again, if you white label, looks like it genuinely looks like you built your own app. It genuinely looks like you've built everything natively.

Pat Flynn:

It's so good. Um, those guys, those guys are freaks of nature, like they're, they're, they're and they're moving fast.

Darren:

They come out with so many new things what do you think about school, school and what like. What's your thought process or not? What do you think about when you, when you look at communities, so you are so, so embedded in communities and you've used them, but now communities are kind of like a wave in terms of because of school and then WAP. I know the guys that are working on WAP and they're just competing directly with school. That's basically the strategy to the most part. How do you think about that? Because that's like a marketplace of communities.

Pat Flynn:

First of all, mighty Networks was one of the first ones to do this, and then Circle came about, and then School, and then there's been a number of others. I think it's great. I love more choice for consumers. I love the fact that it pushes these companies to innovate faster, which is always good for us, as long as they do it well. I mean, even with Kit, like Beehive showed up, and did you know that when Kit did their rebrand change, which they were publicly talking about for a very long time, right, they were literally sharing the process of the rebrand, which was just really really neat and different for a software company. The day that Kit rebranded for a software company, the day that Kit rebranded, beehive came out with a promo that said convert to Beehive Kit, join now to save this, whatever. And it was like directly because, like it had convert kit, convert to Beehive Kit to join your email, and it was just like there's different companies who have different morale. I guess you could call it. But props to them. I mean, that's their style. They've built a loyal audience of people. But it's a great tool, but it also forces the competition to go.

Pat Flynn:

Okay, cool. How do we build a moat around what we have so that, no matter what happens, there is no competition, right, and I think that's just healthy. It's healthy business. It means things are always being innovative and and you know as much as we, the consumer don't like change because it's like, oh no, I gotta think about this thing now, or it's different. I think deep down, we kind of like improvement and you can't improve unless you change.

Pat Flynn:

So I don't know, I think it's cool, I, i's cool. I admire Alex Hermosi and what he has built and his muscles, but I feel like he's using what he knows how to do, which is market For a product that I have heard I've never used it. So this is just what I'm hearing is not up to par with where a lot of people would want a community tool to be, and I know from the inside of being with Circle that like it's going to be hard to compete. But Alex is encouraging a lot of people to create courses in community and change their lives and cannot hate him for that, because I'm doing the same thing just in my own way, 100%.

Darren:

It just depends on what you, what you're going after. I listened to Alex on my First Million again, but it was his second podcast and he made a really good point, which was you know, he's acquired, he's built this audience so that they can build businesses, so that he can partner with when they get to 5 million a year. But in the process of doing that over the next five years, you have this massive bucket, which is 99% of his audience, who are still under 5k a month. So this is basically his play to almost utilize or not utilize, but give an offer to these people and allow them to start.

Darren:

So I think, if you've seen recently, school have kind of changed their ads where it's really really focused on beginners, whereas for me, who had a community for quite some time when I was racking my brains over Slack and Thinkific, circle made so much sense because I needed so much functionality, and then I worked with, like Circle's support team, we were doing a migration. It was so complicated, but we kind of needed it because it was complicated. Does that make sense? So I feel like fit for purpose. Is it getting started? It's amazing, right, and I think the our space of the online business space is only getting more interest and it's only getting faster. It's a lot more faster than your you know initial affiliates that you were doing back in the day. Right, there's a thousand and one ways to monetize an audience I didn't even have a product to sell.

Pat Flynn:

I could generate $200,000 a month by promoting hosting companies and keyword research tools and that was amazing because I could just write really good content and say okay, in step three. This is the tool I used. If you want to use it, here's a discount and go through my link. 200k yeah, profit or revenue, revenue, profit margins, 85%. I mean it was not much expense.

Darren:

There is that wave and we could have a second podcast on this. I know it's late for you about sponsorships for podcasts now, because we are on the buy, the buy side, the positioning side, and the positioning hasn't. There's no. The way I've described this is that there's no proper equilibrium. When you're sponsoring an entire brand youtube, spotify, maybe instagram, maybe tiktok, maybe linkedin as well there's no like baseline. The CPM stuff is not a model that fits into that mode, into that framework. So the way we position it is much more of it's kind of like those days, the way that you describe it. That's how I describe this right now for sponsorships, because, depending on the type of show, of course, the numbers can get quite silly. Basically, on the upside, providing the show solves a specific user for a specific person, right.

Pat Flynn:

And this is where relationships come into play, because you don't want to do a CPM-based model when you're doing sponsorships in general, because you don't know what those numbers might be and you might have to make up for that later. Especially on YouTube, it's kind of all over the place sometimes, but if you have a relationship and you understand the long-term partnership you want to create with a brand, then you form a sponsorship where it's more like an endorsement for a company and continual mentions of it and injecting it into the brand or, better yet, into your process of how you do what you do, in a way that provides much more value than just hey. Let me take a break from this awesome conversation to interrupt you for 60 seconds about something that you probably maybe don't need. So I like the organic stuff better and the injection into a process to help support a company.

Darren:

My logic is only promote something that you'd be willing to interview the founder on. Because if I'm willing to sit with the founder of StreamYard, I'd like to sit with the founder of StreamYard and interview him, have him on my show, because I believe in the product and it's worked really well for me over the past four years. I think it's like a nice mental model that you believe in what it is so that you can speak about it publicly, versus just getting the cash and then there's no click-through rate and the audience turns off.

Pat Flynn:

Unless it's one of those interviews where you try to flip it on that person because they did something bad.

Darren:

Oh no, that's not my style man. We're trying to go against that. Can you imagine that?

Pat Flynn:

They sponsor the podcast. You invite them on the show, they paid you, and then you like flip it and make them look bad. That'd be so bad.

Darren:

The problem is though that does happen, but that's the thing you know, like that's the whole thing with this is that that stuff actually happens so frequently, which is just so unfortunate, and I think that's why people like yourself.

Pat Flynn:

Gotta do it for the gram, you gotta get that attention and you know, be have some spectacle to you know, put in your intro so you can get clicks and views. Um, some of that is necessary. I mean, I don't think that style. But going back to just people and how they consume, now you have to give a person a reason why they need to stick around nowadays, and that hook is key. And you have to be a little clickbaity. I'm in the clickbait camp, but clickbait and fulfill that promise, not clickbait and switch, which is the problem. I think I heard whoever what's his name he owns the YouTube channel Vertasium. He calls it legit bait. It's like, yeah, it's bait, but it's legit so that you can serve the person, because if they're not clicking or sticking, you're not helping them. So you have to get their attention. And it's sad but it's true and that's why thumbnails on YouTube are like.

Pat Flynn:

I just spent today two hours on a photo shoot here at my house virtually with my photographer if you want to call him that my thumbnailographer. He tells me like my camera settings and where to put my lights and stuff and it's really awkward. I did a thumbnail for one of my upcoming longs on Deep Pocket Monster, my Pokemon channel, and it turned out great. But we're investing $1,000 just for a couple thumbnails a month because it is that important and we have seen better results as a result of having better thumbnails. So it's almost not fair, because, sure, if you have the money to spend on it, cool, you could having better thumbnails. So it's almost not fair Because, sure, if you have the money to spend on it, cool, you could design better thumbnails. So sometimes, however, creativity can help as well, thinking about what a person sees on their entire home feed and how to get yours to stand out. It doesn't have to cost money, but if you have it, then it's worth investing into something like thumbnails, for sure.

Darren:

The way I think about it is that it's like a wrapping, a packaging of a chocolate bar. You walk into Walmart, you see a chocolate bar. The reason why you see it is because of the packaging. So it works in that context. It works in the context of YouTube as well. So I write titles like the dream outcome from Hermosi, especially in a business niche. What is that dream outcome someone's trying to achieve? Whether it's launch a podcast, building this business, building that brand, wrapping that around there and having the timeframe, having everything and then having it within 50 characters. So there's different components.

Darren:

Now, I don't want to keep you too long, though, because I know you have to. I know it's late for you, but, pat, this was amazing man. It was really, really great to meet. Hopefully, you had a great time too, and I think we're both in this. Hopefully we're both in a similar position whereby, for us, it's much more about relationships and building great content, and I think that's what's kept you in the game for so long. It's what's inspired me from people like yourself. So I do genuinely say, from the bottom of my heart, a big thank you for everything. Um, and not just today, just everything, just top of mind. Whatever, I always go back to your YouTube videos whenever I feel a bit lost sometimes.

Pat Flynn:

Some of the OG videos. Thank you, man. I appreciate that. Darren, before we hit record, everybody listening told me a great story about how he started his show and he found my YouTube videos on how to start a podcast and gave me a lot of credit for the reason why the show started. But I want to give credit back to you, darren. You've done some amazing stuff here and the way you interview is great and inspiration to people who, under your brand, are doing that as well. So you know, congrats on what you've built and the platform and the agency and you know who you inspire and you know somebody helped me and I'm helping. I helped you, you're helping others. Like this is imagine a world where everybody's just here to help each other. Like what an amazing place it would be. And you know we're both doing our part and I hope those of you listening uh are doing your part as well.