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Kickoff Sessions
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Kickoff Sessions
#286 Paul Daley - The Real Reason Most Coaching Businesses FAIL
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The #1 reason your online business isn’t growing has nothing to do with strategy.
It’s that you’re building something you’re not aligned with.
You’re selling something that doesn’t feel true.
You’re scaling something that drains you.
And it shows in your content, your energy, your results.
Most people don’t have a strategy problem.
They have an alignment problem.
They’re copying what they think works.
They’re forcing offers that feel off.
They’re chasing outcomes without ever stopping to ask what they actually want.
And the answer isn’t to push harder.
The answer is to slow down, get clear, and build from who you are, not what everyone else is doing.
This new episode with Paul Daley breaks it all down.
Founder, entrepreneur, friend and someone who’s built everything by being ruthlessly honest with himself.
We talk about:
– Why most programs never scale
– Why people burn out chasing someone else’s vision
– And how alignment builds momentum that brute force never can
Smash that like button if you enjoyed this episode!
(00:00) The Truth About Coaching Businesses
(01:09) Why Most Info Products Fail
(02:45) Building a Moat Around Your Business
(06:32) How True Expertise Creates Differentiation
(08:54) Why So Many Agency Founders Fake It
(10:27) Selling vs. Building: Avoiding the Catch-22
(14:15) 10x vs 2x Thinking for Founders
(16:37) Building Trust Through Transparency
(20:17) Humility vs Authority: Two Content Styles
(24:55) Your Business Is a Mirror of You
(26:14) Modeling Christ in Business and Leadership
(29:07) Why Founders Lose Their Way
(34:44) Rough Roads Lead to Smooth Outcomes
(36:58) How to Find Purpose
(38:36) The Sales Funnel of Faith
(46:27) The Only Path to Long-Term Peace
(49:05) Leaving Educate and Rediscovering Faith
(57:36) Living in Alignment With Your Mission
The day you stop doing what you're teaching people is just a really rough day. I'll put it that way You're going from agency and you're having info for agencies, but you don't run an agency anymore. It just becomes a lot harder for you to be the agency guy at that point.
Darren Lee:Why do so many coaching programs fail?
Paul Daley:Realistically, if you look at a coaching company, most of the time there's no real product emphasis or product that they're selling. They're selling intelligence or information, but the information is not delivered effectively and so, realistically, the product isn't there.
Darren Lee:Most founders build businesses, but very few build businesses that they're truly aligned with. In today's podcast, we're joined with Paul Daly, ceo, entrepreneur and creator, who spent his career not just building businesses but building a mission he actually believes in. We break down why so many founders stay stuck, the silent traps that kill real progression, and how aligning your business to a bigger purpose is the real unlock for scaling beyond success into significance. If you're serious about building a business that outlives you and not just running onto a hamster wheel, this is the episode you need to hear how and why, specifically why do so many coaching programs fail?
Paul Daley:Before anything, I was watching some of our last podcast in the car to the office today, and I watched the first five minutes and I saw in the first five like my reaction is the same reaction I want to have right now. You asked me this question and I was like wow, out of the gate, that's a hard question, you know, and I feel like I want to have right now. You asked me this question and I was like wow, out of the gate, that's a hard question, and I feel like I want to say the exact same thing now. You didn't warm up or intro into it. We're having a good conversation and then immediately into a deep question.
Paul Daley:I think the answer is relatively simple, though, and it's because Okay, so realistically, with a coaching offer, there's no barrier of entry on product in order to start, and so you can start something with no product, start selling it, do a little bit of like you know, coaching. Then maybe you start to make some videos or whatever being put in a G drive, real product emphasis or product that they're selling. They're selling intelligence or information, but the information is not delivered effectively, and so, realistically, the product isn't there and the main asset that the company has is their sales systems, and so most info or companies, coaching companies, et cetera I would say they fail because they don't have a product, and because they don't have a product, they don't really tend to have a moat, and so one of the things I've really been thinking about and looking at lately are moats in business. Are you familiar with the topic of, like a moat? Cool, yeah, the edge, but also not just the edge, but the thing that you have well, yeah, I guess, edge, the thing that you have that makes you impossible to copy right.
Paul Daley:So let's like, look at info companies, example, given, that have very strong modes. You have Iman and his info and the emotes that he has is that he has an insane audience. You know size, insane audience, buy-in. He has insane product quality because everything is custom software. You know dozens of hours poured into probably one video for editing and such. So product quality is there. You know how the product is hosted, is there. The information of the product is unique because it comes from Iman, who has experience doing what he's talking about. The audience is a moat in its own. So those are all moats. Then you can go to Dave Ramsey, for example, given, and his moat is the decades of social proof and case studies that he has in showing that what his you know model for financial savings looks like.
Paul Daley:And so when you look at info products that have moats example given, like Masterclass, their entire enterprise value is probably based on and you can call Masterclass an info product, right, or an e-learning company, and so Masterclass, their moat is based on the speakers inside of Masterclass and the intellectual property, the IP that they have with those speakers being in there, that no one else can have right. So no one else will ever have Gordon Ramsey and Gary Kasparov and all these guys in there speaking on whatever their certain subjects are. So that's a moat and so, realistically, most coaching companies just don't have a moat. They'd have nothing that makes them special. They have no edge. They have nothing that makes them special. They have no edge. They have nothing that you know keeps people from copying them. They have really no product.
Paul Daley:And when you don't have product, you're not going to have people giving you referrals and you know and coming in and such. You're going to have people churning quickly. All to say, the only thing that they do is they sell and you can only sell for so long before no product catches up. You know no product catches up, you know, and so I would say that's probably you know, one of the biggest things you know. And then you can get into like, if you have an audience, a lot of people who have audiences still will launch an e-learning or an info and it'll still fail. And it's normally because you know.
Paul Daley:If you have audience and that's why you can sell, then the audience that you have will eventually hear about the bad product that you have. And then the you know, bad PR spreads like cancer. It's very, very fast. Good PR takes forever to spread. It takes 20 years to build a good reputation. It takes five seconds to destroy this Warren Buffett right. And so if you have a bad product, people will know about it much more quickly than if you have a good product. And so there and you know, realistically, if you, if you have audience, that's one of the downfalls that comes. If you don't have an audience and you're just selling and selling, selling, whether it's outbound ads, et cetera Eventually ad arbitrage doesn't work, gets too expensive. Diminishing return ads get too expensive. If you don't have a good product, where people are staying in, increasing LTV et cetera, you won't be able to run it that way, and so it's just. At the end of the day, it all comes down to most coaching companies just don't have an actual product. That's what I would say.
Darren Lee:Just want to take one quick break to ask you one question have you been enjoying these episodes? Because, if you have, I'd really appreciate if you subscribe to the channel so that more people can see these episodes and be influenced to build an online business this year. Thank you.
Darren Lee:It's very strange to me that people would push a product that they don't know themselves inside out and have an edge right Like your edge has been in education, working with Iman.
Darren Lee:Edge was being, which has been an education work with Iman. My edge, hopefully, has been in podcasting, learning like all the nitty-gritty, boring stuff for five years when all my high school friends like try to mock me. Right, like that was that gave me the edge to be like oh, the thumbnail should be this proportionate edge. Right, it just it seems so crazy to me that someone would even want to start a program and start an offer like that and that's why it all sounds the same. You know, like everything like sounds the same and this is like the it just it's just crazy to me the reason why people would even consider to be able to do that. Right, because I would think that the product would need to be sound before anything. You know, the lean startup approach is that you set up before you build it, but in theory, it. It should almost be the opposite way in terms of like, do you have the acquisition and the knowledge to be able to build something that is worth selling Right? It's a complete different reframe.
Paul Daley:Yeah, I think the lean startup idea is almost more toward things that take time to build, right? Well, okay, I'm saying that in info doesn't take time to build. But to what you said first about everything looking the same, you can think of all the companies instantly that have information to sell, that just stand out among the crowd and it's because they know what they're talking about or they have some unique moat, right. And so if you think about Cole Gordon example, given Cole I think is a fantastic example of an info that's impossible to replicate, because the amount of number one, the IP in there, is crazy valuable. Number two is the amount of training in there and the in-depth training of it. I mean, it would take you quite literally just recording probably a hundred something hours of recording time to actually duplicate what Cole did. If you just wanted to say, hey, I'm going to take Cole's exact program and copy all the course course content, it would probably take well over a hundred hours of you literally just in front of loom, which is a moat in its own, because a lot of people aren't willing to sacrifice that amount of time, you know. So even just time sacrifices him up. And then you have all of the CSMs, one of his leading CSMs or CSM directors, temple. Temple's a very close friend of mine and Temple is one of the most skilled people in sales and sales team development that I know. You can't replicate the experience that Temple has when he works one-on-one with one of his clients, and so all these moats make him very unique and so his offering stands out from everyone else right, and so it does take a lot of time to build.
Paul Daley:But I think that where the lean startup gets it right is you're supposed to validate that the problem you're trying to solve is a problem that people have. If it's, you know, a problem that people are going to buy into, and then, once you find out it is, then you build a product. I think what most info products do is they know that the problem is something that people will buy into because it's already validated, because they're trying to sell the same thing that a thousand other people are trying to sell and they skip the whole. Let me build a product and they just go into the. Let me validate what's already validated, but let me, let me continuously just kind of sell instead of actually taking the time to build on the backend. You know, and that's because I think a lot of people who start infos, they're doing it from a place of necessity. So I always talk about, you know, I always bring this back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs and at the end of the day, you can't really build something if you're worried about paying rent that month, you know. And so if I really had to take another guess as to why a lot of infos fail, it's that plenty of people and we can even start to, you know, specify down as to which industry we're talking about.
Paul Daley:But let's use an example of like agency owner goes to info which is really common and teaches people how to do agency right and so, realistically, most people. This is why I respect Iman, and there's a whole theory right now that Iman didn't make money with agency, which is lunacy, trust me. Out of all people I would know, iman crushed it with his agency. I can vouch for it. I want to say that a lot of people will start an agency, have one decent month where they like, just you know, front end cash, all of their, all of their. You know they'll sell six month payment plans or whatever be it, uh, and collect it all in, or, you know, and so they'll have one $80,000 a month and everything goes to poo.
Paul Daley:I'm sorry, I'm trying not to curse and it falls apart. So they start an info product, but they don't actually have money. But their info product is based on them having money and how they created this amazing agency. And so because of that, they, you know, realistically want to live up to our brand and right now everyone's either doing the Lambo route or doing the old money route. But everyone's doing this stuff that costs a lot of money, right? And so they're buying their Rolexes, they're buying whatever kind of fancy clothing they have to buy, they're they're going and getting these Airbnbs to record their VSLs and and everything like that. So everyone's spending a ton of money. But you're laughing because it's true, you know it's true and so, realistically, they're broke. So they need to sell people, otherwise they won't be able to make money. They're probably spending their last bits of money on ads or short form agencies that aren't producing any kind of results for them. So they need to sell people and if they're in this cycle of needing to sell people, they never actually have time to build a product.
Paul Daley:Does it make sense Versus like, yeah, a difference.
Paul Daley:Just to note this and I'm not trying to put myself on a pedestal here.
Paul Daley:Maybe unconsciously I am, but a difference is like last week I spent the entire week working on one like 25 page document and making a 50 minute video for it.
Paul Daley:That's going to be in our like low ticket, even our, our high ticket stuff, but our low ticket stuff on just um mindset principles that I, I saw presidents have, billionaires having, etc. Uh, but I could spend, you know, a full week working on one thing that won't see you know 95 of people who ever cross our, our brand. Uh, because I, I, because I'm not focused on the sales front, because I never did what I just kind of went through of, like, you know, trying to play the game, because I'm not focused on the sales front, because I never did what I just kind of went through of, like you know, trying to play the game of trying, you know, getting myself in that catch-22, if you will, it's proverbial, you know, at the end of the day, Dude, some of Iman's feedback to me was always use your agency and always have the agency to show that you can do it at a very high level.
Darren Lee:Because if I can do it at a very high level, at a complex level, because we've like 30, 40 clients, the complexity is so high that I have to always be ahead. I have to always be like, okay, what's happening on YouTube, what's happening on LinkedIn, what's happening coming off of LinkedIn, what's happening on email? Because if I'm doing it daily, even if it's my team, I'm just showing a high level of competency. That's relevant. So therefore, it's like hey, paul, this is how maybe you should run your YouTube right now, because we are doing this for 30 plus people. And he was like.
Darren Lee:His feedback was like even if you don't grow it any further, if you keep it at the way, it is just it the way it is, so it doesn't like implode. And basically, you know, keep on growing, it's going to implode. If you just do that, that will put you so far ahead of everybody else because you're just doing what you said and this seems so obvious, right? It's like the personal trainer who still goes to the gym instead of, you know, getting fat and trying to coach people, but you have to do it for yourself before you consider doing it for anybody else. So I I always put it.
Paul Daley:Yeah, I think that there's a lot that I could say on there. Number one is that Iman, of course, knows best when it comes to how to time that and I think a lot of people hearing that might be like might say that why he shut his agency down and, at the end of the day, what I would say, it's probably the same as what he would say, which is, eventually, if the info ever grows so much so that the agency and you know, let's say, opportunity is even opportunity cost just gets so dramatic that sometimes it's worth just shutting it down. You know, um, but I will say that the second that you ever stop like for you because your info is based on agency, correct business owners who are who are doing what you're doing with podcasts not necessarily.
Darren Lee:No, no, uh, the info is basically for guys that want to run content businesses. So they're running YouTube into coaching offers and everything.
Paul Daley:But it's from podcasts. Is it B2B or is it B2C?
Darren Lee:B2C. So podcasters who have their own podcast, who have their own business on the back end, how do we use content on the front end to drive traffic into their back end?
Paul Daley:It's something that you already do right For essentially.
Darren Lee:And so.
Paul Daley:Exactly yeah, and so I would say that the day you ever stop, the day you stop doing what you're teaching people, is just a really rough day. I'll put it that way.
Paul Daley:It doesn't matter so if you're going from agency and you're having info for agencies but you don't run an agency anymore, it just becomes a lot harder for you to be the agency guy at that point. Right, and so it it's. You know, the day example given if Dave Ramsey ever started getting in debt and struggling financially, it probably would be very hard for him to sell a financial coaching kind of offer. And so you just, whatever you're doing or whatever you're teaching people, I think I totally agree with you, mana. I think that you have to be actively doing whatever you're coaching people, and I think that's one of the reasons or you have to have so much social proof that you did it and you still have leaders inside of it that are doing it to where you can get out. So I think that's why he can still sell, example given, an agency program if he wants to, because he did it well and he still has people in there that are actively doing it that teach on his behalf.
Darren Lee:Does it make sense? It's a big difference.
Paul Daley:Downfield for me and for most.
Darren Lee:And it's always about the focus right. So have you read. 10x is easier than 2x.
Paul Daley:No, but I would understand the principle of it's easier to plan out and try to do something that's 10 times bigger. It's easier to try to 10x your company than to 2x your company.
Darren Lee:Yes, but it's mainly it's almost like a wool over someone's eyes. But if I want something like, you want to build your offer. You want to grow that very elegantly. You want to work with Christian founders. That's something that you're going to plan. You're going to really plan out and you're going to sit back in your little armchair, plan it out, take your time, come back to it and, as a result, you will build something way more substantial. So the whole logic is that it works on their creativity and enthusiasm versus anxiety and fear.
Darren Lee:Same with the infinite game versus the finite game. If it's finite, like a football game, it will end. People in the crowd have anxiety because it will end, whereas if it's infinite, you're like, look, we didn't get this VSL out today, but it doesn't matter, because I want to work with christian founders forever, so I'm just gonna keep on doing it, right, you? You know that as a result. So it's a fantastic book, dude. It's basically like a self-development book, more so than anything else and then it shows you where you should be positioning yourself on the chessboard, and it's just a nice way to play it, because when you've been in it obviously you've been in this a lot longer than I have, you know, of course, but at the same time, you can still always think through that lens providing you're not a pedestal.
Paul Daley:By the way, bro, you've been in the game for a while now. You're very experienced. You're doing amazing things. Don't you keep short selling yourself, you know well, I think it's I was mainly creating content before I was you know.
Darren Lee:I don't know how much you know my background, but like I built companies when I was younger but they all just went to zero. But I guess in the content space and the content business space it's been like five years and then two or three years of like this thing working time man true, but again, in a grand scheme of things, as we plan things out right, the it's always just more experience as time goes on.
Paul Daley:Yeah yeah, but it's also important to look back and see the growth that you've had and understands. You know you're not a beginner anymore, by any means true I want to ask you about trust.
Darren Lee:Uh, you talk a lot about your content, about like building that trust, like barometer, and building that up hugely, um, and it's something that, again, the high ticket closer bro who walks around bali doesn't have. They don't have the trust of their audience. How have you seen that build up? Because your brand and your coaching offers, they're so elegant, like it's, the positioning is so right always. How do you think about that problem and how do you build trust with users to be able to scale a coaching program?
Paul Daley:I think there's a few things that stand out. Number one is I don't mean to degrade where you are at all, but one of the things that I think makes someone more or less trustworthy is when they're doing what the masses are doing, or if they're doing what the masses are not doing Right. So I am in middle of nowhere, uh, maryland USA, uh and what? It's actually the richest zip code in the country, but it's in the middle of cornfields. No one knows where I am, and you know there's a private jet airport like five minutes away, cause people are like there's the billionaire per capita of a thousand people here is crazy. So there's like a private jet, there's no Uber where we are, but there's a private jet airport. I'll put it that way. It's like the most juxtaposition kind of area. I want to say that I'm not at all where internet money would be right In the slightest, and I think that is number one, something that makes me different, that makes people also trust me a little more, because I'm not in Miami, I'm not in Dubai, I'm not in Bali and, to be honest with you, there are certain areas that untrustworthy people are correlated to, and so, like example given, I have dealt with x person who is in dubai who this guy was untrustworthy.
Paul Daley:I've heard a lot of a few other people who are in dubai who are untrustworthy. Dubai must be untrustworthy, this person's in dubai, so they must be untrustworthy as well, or same with bali. This person's bali, that person who is in that person, who also are kind of sketchier in bali. So I'm assuming maybe Darren is blank right.
Paul Daley:And so association through geography, essentially, and so no one can say that where I am they have that association with, because they don't know, number one, where I am in the States, and if they did, they would have anything but positive association. So there's like minute stuff like that. But then the other side to it too is I think more than most I've tried to share my failures and like where I'm not succeeding and where I'm not doing well on YouTube. One of my favorite videos that I've personally made so far is I'm failing as a man. I actually just even had a part of it shown in the vlog that we just let out last Friday, and I think that I talk well on how I'm not happy with where I'm at and why I'm not happy and how I feel like I'm failing my family. I'm failing in business because I'm not working as well as I could be. I'm not delegating the things that could be. I'm being I'm lazy with the actual actions I'm taking. This was like a nine month ago video and I still think about it, right, but I feel like most people aren't going to talk about their failures on social. They're going to talk about their wins and how good they are and their stripe screens or how smart they are, et cetera. And so, especially in the B2B world, man, if you like, you're in, so the content you probably watch is B2B based, if I take a guess, and so I'm at like everyone's doing there.
Paul Daley:There's really two types of content I think that people are producing. It's either the um, her Mosey slash, nick Cosman slash, uh, cole, cole Gordon does this in a different approach, but you could say, cole, like taking things and showing people how smart you are, and so something that can, like you know, at the end of the day, it's almost like pushing information down, but you're stepping on an authority complex to do it. And I mean no offense to anyone I said, but it's a style of marketing that works really well for B2B, right, like the. You know I am super smart. Let me use big words so that you see how smart I am. Let me use equations or such to press this down.
Paul Daley:And I know a lot of people would say that it's funny that I put Hermosi in there, because Hermosi simplifies a lot of things. But I think Hermosi does definitely put it in, you know, step himself onto authority, but you also have your basic style of content, which is, like you're, more Iman centered content, which is, like you're, more Iman centered content, which is humbling yourself, not having to be the smartest person in the room, and clear and showing points that seem, when you talk about them, very rudimentary and very easy to understand, and then the masses, of course, can understand. And that's actually what top tier copywriting is.
Darren Lee:It's, it's you know, simplified Exactly, and I think that's the other side to building trust is oftentimes not having to be the smartest person in the room.
Paul Daley:You and I think that's the other side to building trust is oftentimes not having to be the smartest person in the room. You and I were talking about this before we started recording. One of the things that a lot of people don't know about me is how tactic, tact, tactful or how, how well I am or how well versed I am with tactics and business. I don't talk about tactics and business often on my YouTube. I normally talk about principles and strategy and I need to do a better job of doing. But it's also because I'm not. I don't need to be the smartest person on YouTube, like I originally thought I would have had to be. Iman actually taught me that point. He taught me that point really well as we argued about it for years, and I'm blessed and I'm happy that he taught me at that point.
Darren Lee:But I think most people in a bit more detail.
Paul Daley:I will in one second, but I think most people they need to be. I think this is the explanation of it. They need to be the smartest person when they create content. They need to have people looking at them and saying like, wow, that guy. Look at Darren, he is so smart, he knows his stuff. He used this big word. He talked about the system that I don't have. His stuff is all together.
Paul Daley:I think what we're what I'm going for. Um, it's different than how Iman words it, but I don't need people to think wow, think wow, paul is super smart. My brain is actually the exact opposite. I want people to see wow, paul is super flawed. The fact that God is using him is insane on its own. Glory. Be in the name of God. And like look how wise God is in how how much he's doing through Paul, who is a very flawed figure, you know, um, and so I want to show the flaws and be transparent about the flaws so that I can glorify, or God receives the glory that he deserves because he's working through me, and I don't deserve to be worked through. And I think because of that, because I'm showing both ends, that's one of the reasons that it's trustworthy because it's God's wisdom, hopefully pouring through me. I think that's why it's eloquent Another way to word this and I'm not here yet, but I've heard that, if you know you're doing content, well, when you feel like you're naked, walking down the sidewalk just exposing everything, like you're showing everything, where most people the skeletons they have in their closets are, you know, like their closets are just waiting to like burst open because they're trying to show only the specific things that are making them look good, but all the stuff that makes them real human beings they're hiding and I feel like that's something that humans can sense and that's why people don't often trust a lot of the people out there.
Paul Daley:Or it's also because people are speaking about something that they don't understand. That's probably 90% of it is like let me tell you about something I've never personally done, but I read it in a book or I saw someone else talk about it. So I'm going to try to remake the same video, but I can't speak about it the same way because I don't have the same experience, which is also untrustworthy in its own so one thing I would add as well is one observation of you is and I learned this from my own personal speaking coach which is you have a very high competency.
Darren Lee:So we're quite similar in terms of like we over index on high competency. But usually the trade-off of a competency if you imagine a graph is warmed on the other axis, warmed is low. So you might look at like a Cole Gordon and he's high on the competency index, but he could be quite cold to consume his content, apart from them being cold, whereas for you I feel like you have a high competency and high warmed factor which is very, very, very difficult to build, because sometimes if you're like, if you're an overachiever or a super ambitious person, you don't want to come across as like weak, okay. So therefore you don't like smile this is literally what my coach teaches me is like smile dude, because then people will warm to you. And it's a small thing, right? You don't need to learn that. You just are that and as a result, it's not that you become more trustworthy, it's just the fact that you become more you, so more authentic.
Darren Lee:So a lot of times for my presentations, when I'm in person I'm a little bit tight, but then I relax as time goes on and same with a few events. I run a lot of events and masterminds and stuff like this. It's just a very interesting observation because it's how we want to perceive ourselves and that could be an element of insecurity, you know. But the faster that you recognize that about yourself, the more that you become yourself and therefore you attract the people that you want to attract. Right, because one of my best mates and works at our company too, work very closely Tom said to me that you know, everyone knows, your business is a reflection of you, but also your customers are a reflection of you as well.
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Paul Daley:I love the customer side, bro. That makes me want to brag more than anything I've bragged about, because the guys that are inside of my program, they're awesome. Yeah, they're better than me, so that's a very good line. I think the one thing I want to say is just praise God for what you said about, in this case, me being well-rounded, because it's not to my own accord, man, my model for that. I also think a lot of this is also who you model after, right, and so if you think about most people in the space wanting to model after either Iman, andrew Tate or Alex Ramosi In our industry, it's really going to be one of three of those guys that everyone's trying to model after. And then you might have your people trying to model after Cole, gordon or others, etc. But it's normally going to come back to those three Gordon or others, et cetera but it's normally going to come back to those three.
Paul Daley:I think something that is one of the main reasons, if not the only reason, I might be more well-rounded is because my model is Christ, and if you think about Christ, there would be no one warmer that and kinder that you could talk to than God himself in flesh right. He would have been the warmest human being you've ever met. He would have also been the wisest human you've ever met. He never tripped People would try to trip him up on words. He was wise. He was incredibly wise, incredibly warm, incredibly compassionate. He showed the tension. So I think, at the end of the day, what this actually comes back to. This is probably a complete derail from everything that you thought we were going to get into, but this is something that's been on my lately. You asked me before this is their question. That would just spark you up and apparently this is it right, something I've been really thinking about a lot lately and it's actually been a discussion at our men's breakfast in churches like the tension you're supposed to carry as a man and I think most men don't carry tension, they are like a broken wire to. So, realistically, you're supposed to be a compassionate, warm, loving man who is also steadfast and stern in righteousness, right, and so they're supposed. And realistically, just just like god is just yet merciful, which is attention, right, there's a tension in that. We're supposed to have attention. It's almost like taking an elastic band putting in between two, two you know poles and you're supposed to live in that tension, but most people just rip the band and it just goes to one side.
Paul Daley:So you have your, your um, you know unrefined, immature masculinity which is let me have multiple spouses, let me let my masculinity go, and just like it's the exact opposite of the feminist movement. It's like, let me just let my masculinity rage right and that, not to say that certain people in the space, but people will start to think of people that that you know that might come to mind with that, but it's very what you would call like just raw, immature masculinity. On the other side you have the. You know the, the emasculine movement, which is like men are supposed to be on far to. You know other the, the, the emasculine movement, which is like men are supposed to be on far to. You know other side of like wearing dresses, blah, blah, blah.
Paul Daley:You know nothing that loving side times a thousand the wrong way, um, but something that's that's been in my brain is that I'm supposed to live like Christ, like Christ did. Uh, obviously I'm going to be flawed in doing that, but I'm supposed to be Christ Like I'm supposed to be Christian. The apostle Paul talks about this quite often and how to live like that, and I think Paul did a very good job of living this tension as well, and so I'm trying to live in that tension and I'm trying to think about that and that's my model. And so if that's my model and that's what I'm going for and that's where I want to be one degree better, like that every single day, versus a lot of people's models are flawed humans. That's another reason that I think my brand, if you will, has become more trustworthy. It's because my North Star is the truth, the life and the way where most is someone who just has social media following. Does it make sense?
Darren Lee:It makes sense, go a little bit deeper as to how someone can go off rails. How do you see that? So they're building this empire, they're building this business, they're probably helping people, but they're not mission aligned. The way that you describe it as is there, is there, like a way that you see that going off? Do they follow more ego? Do they follow more greed? Like, how do you see that? Like, what's the balance between, like a high profit revenue, driving or generating business and greed?
Paul Daley:uh, yeah, at the end of the day, it's your heart, right, and so, uh, this is an unsexy answer, bro. You know what? Know what?
Darren Lee:I think that's a good answer, dude, that's a really good answer Can you explain that more it's like I didn't, I never thought about it.
Paul Daley:It's just hard posture At the end of the day, if you, you know, money is a tool, but if it's okay. So do you know what the first commandment is? I'm not trying to step you right now. A lot of people will think that no other gods before god means like the god of sun, the god of this, blah, blah, blah, which is also true, of course. But what it really means is that you shall have no other gods in your life, meaning idols before me. And so, at the end of the day, I'm going to use myself as a flawed example of this, because it's probably it's just the easiest for me to use.
Paul Daley:I want and you and you saw in kind of how we talked before this, I hope that I want my priority, my priority, is not the money that the business creates, it's growing the kingdom of God through the content that we create, through the business that we do. It's using business as a way, because that's the vehicle that I think God has has, you know, selected me for. It's using business to grow the kingdom of God. So it doesn't matter if the business does five, 10, 20, $30 million, because realistically, that's a tool for whatever God wants me to do with it versus. And so and I'm, you know I don't have financial goals because of that it's whatever God wants to do. I, one of my daily prayers, is God, you be the CEO of the business, align my heart with yours, make sure you know, make me a heart, uh, that is postured to grow the way you want me to grow. Discipline me so that I can have the tribulation in life. Uh, and take on that tribulation with a smile, so that I can be a man that's, you know, worthy of holding whatever burdens you want to put on me. Uh, and let me take. Let me take your yoke right, but it's always around God, you're the CEO of my business. And then it always almost ends with you're the CEO, be a good CEO and flood our business after you've made the business worth flooding.
Paul Daley:And so, realistically, if the business does really well, then it's not to my own accord. And I'm not chasing the 500 or a mil or two million month mark, like that most people are. I'm just chasing growing the kingdom of god and I'm saying god, you're the ceo you get it to. Like. The way I said it to john the other day on our internal podcast is or maybe this is in the car. If I make god the ceo of my business and I I don't want to make him the ceo of my business and I try actively every day to make him the ceo of my business. You know, imagine you're the ceo of your business, do you C-O-O-S? Yeah, imagine for a second. The COO started making goals for the business that were not your goals. What?
Darren Lee:would you?
Paul Daley:feel? How would you feel about that Tension? Yeah, I don't want to set goals for the business if God is the CEO, because I'm then the COO of the business, right? Why am I setting goals for the business if I'm not the one running the business? And so I feel like a lot of people will set goals for the business, but what they don't understand, or what they don't really realize deep down, is the goals that they're setting are god said before god.
Paul Daley:Like they're, they're making these goals of like 10k per month, 50k per month, 100, 500, 250, whatever even number that you arbitrarily want to find. It's always the next biggest even number. It's, but it's your, it's your idol and everything's focused on that. And, like you're, you're absolutely obsessed with that. And because of that, that's the hard posture difference right Of, realistically, it's the byproduct versus the primary product. Byproduct for me, hopefully, is cash comes in, because I'm actively trying to work with God and growing his kingdom. As a soldier in his army, a primary product would be I need to make 500K a month or a million a month or whatever it be, because that's all like. That's how I'm going to find my identity, this is what I'm working for, this is my life's purpose, and there's there's very different um heart posture in both of those you know.
Paul Daley:And so to go back, how you can fail or how you can fall is, at the end of the day again.
Paul Daley:So Proverbs 1, 7, paraphrasing, is that the foundation of knowledge is fear of the Lord.
Paul Daley:At the end of the day, if you don't have the right perspective on life or the right angle of looking at life, if you don't have the right glasses on as to how you're supposed to look at life, which is through the lens of knowing that there is a God and you have to have reverence toward God, this world looks completely different. The things you're gonna wanna do in this life are completely different. You're not gonna be for the right reasons, and so, of course, you're going to have these gods before the true God that you're working toward, and they're going to consume you. And you know realistically, if you think about the fact that this is a fallen world through sin, then what you're going to recognize about that is that the, the nature of this world is so sexy, it's so beautifully not beautiful, it's just sexy, dirty, disgustingly sexy to to want to get these amazing goals in business and to do these amazing things, and and and, then with you know 500 K, then you can buy this and have this, or have that girl or whatever be it.
Paul Daley:It's all very like wrong thinking. Right At the end of the day, it's not going to lead you to peace, like God will. It's going to lead you to more and more and more of needing, more and more and more, and that's, you know, to get back to the going off rails. That's, that's my not at all.
Darren Lee:Not at all, dude, it's just. It's just maturity, though right at the end of the day, like there's different stages of maturity here, which is like if you're getting into the space and in the beginning again it's more stress-based. I need to make my rent and where you've got the, and you don't need to wait for this for sure. But it's almost as someone becomes more mature and more articulate. What they want, they realize that the stripe account is not what's going to give them the goal right.
Darren Lee:You may want to grow your business and you may want to help more people, but if you keep that front and center, that's how you burn out and then give up because all those sub effects just happen as a result of not being really dialed in as to why you're doing it right, like what's the overarching theme as to why you're not doing it? And therefore you've used the excuse of I want to swap niches, I want to swap the coaching, I want to, I want to take a break, I want my burned out. But if you did have an overarching goal as to why you're doing it, you can go through rough times and know that rough roads end smooth. It's much more higher focused.
Paul Daley:Rough roads end smooth. I'm going to steal that.
Darren Lee:Dude, the actual full phrase is rough roads end smooth, smooth roads end rough. And it's a beautiful phrase because I've unfortunately seen it happen, just like you know super close to me, which is people who have taken the the smooth road in life, they end up having like a rough end of life and, conversely, like I've had a pretty rough 20s. You know, like I've did a bunch of things, a bunch of things failed. I used to work for like big tech companies, consulting firms. I got out of all of it and I, I would say I've had a very like heavy 20s in terms of like investment of my time into work which has paid me dividends as the hopefully the rest of my life, not necessarily cash in the bank, but more like life equity and knowledge acquired and skill acquired and skill acquisition. So I just see it, you know. I just see it, you know. I just see it in front of me continuously.
Paul Daley:I love it bro.
Darren Lee:Tell me a little about how someone can realign those priorities. So let's say, someone may not have their fade or to do a fade and they're like super stressed or trying to scale this business and it's everything's falling apart. How did you realign those priorities?
Paul Daley:I'm gonna hit two things here, right? Uh, maybe three things. So number one is that the only way to align your priorities is understanding that there is it's not a subjective thing, it's an objective thing, and so, realistically, you're asking from a subject, subjective perspective, of like, how do I align my priorities for my life? But if you understand that your life is not yours, that someone died for you and his name was Christ, that your life is his and that's objective truth, because he was the truth of white life in the way he spoke this into existence, this being the world that we're in, you and I, breath of life, et cetera, if you realize that he's objective which I'm going to get into in a second then it's not how do I realign my priorities. For me, it's how do I give God my priorities?
Paul Daley:There's a song that I love that I'm going to CTA people to listen to. It's called Control. I listened to the acoustic version. I can't remember by who it's by, but it's like, essentially, you're going to paraphrase a line of it which is that God wants me. Because of that, I'm okay, giving him my life, I'm giving him everything you know, giving all of my priorities to him so that he can recategorize it on his end, because, at the end of the day, I want God to prioritize my life, not me. That's way better at it, which is going to get me in the second thing in a second. I want to go over how you do that, though, because a lot of people listen to this Number one. If you're, you know I'm talking about God, so a lot of people will. Well, your, your click-through rate might be solid, but your watch time might plummet as soon as we start talking about that. You'll see the graph, um, but, realistically, if you have any inkling on understanding anything about that objectivity and why I can speak to that with confidence, there's, it's. I'm actually going to make a youtube video on this, and I would love people feel free to steal or copy this idea for youtube, because I think if this youtube video did well, I don't care if it comes from me, as long as it does well.
Paul Daley:But, in short, the process of marketing is the same process of evangelizing, or same process as finding God, which is that the first thing in marketing is showing people that they have a problem, creating problem awareness right In this area, we have to show people that they have a problem, which is that if you die, you're not, you're not going to a very good place. If you die without knowing who Jesus Christ is and surrendering your life to him, right, there is a problem. That's why Christians and you know the apostle Paul talks about in his letters uh, there's real speed that we're supposed to move with as Christians to get this problem to be you know, or to show, or to get awareness of this problem out into the world, so that people can can start going down this, this path of understanding that there is a better way of living and there is someone that you're supposed to spend your life too. So, number one problem awareness. There is someone who died for you. Are you aware of the fact that you're going to go to hell unless you convert your life to him?
Paul Daley:The first, the first like question that people have to ask themselves in this is is there really a God? Do I believe that there is a God in existence? Right, meaning, realistically, the first thing you have to look at is like, logically, if I'm going to play out both ends, do I believe in nihilism or do I believe in some kind of Abrahamic religion? Because I either have to believe that God created the world, or I have to believe that you know, the world came from chance, happens chance, and I think, realistically anyone who prescribes to the world came from habsen's chance, big bang, and then you know macroevolution, etc. I would say that that takes way more belief than believing in god at the end of the day. Right, so you have first. I mean, bro, we can get into it.
Paul Daley:Number one like we have less you know evidence for evolution now than we did when darwin actually made his theory for evolution. Uh, his theory for evolution is less taken by scientists than it is by the mass public. His theory for evolution is literally when he created it. It is by the mass public. His theory for evolution is literally when he created it. He said there's not enough evidence to support it now, but as science improves over the next hundred years, the artifacts that we need in order to prove this claim will come. And now we've actually have less artifacts than when he originally made the claim of evolution or theory of evolution, because a lot of the artifacts have been disproven to not actually be linked together so realistically. And then you know you can get, there's so much you can get into, but at the end of the day, the science of how the world is created is what, like 50, 60 years old, you know.
Paul Daley:And so it takes a lot of belief to believe in the theory that constantly is changing, versus the theory that is true, which has, you know, been over thousands of years now how the world has operated with the understanding that God created it. And so I would say it takes a lot more belief to believe that the world was chance right and that, example given, our beings are just matter mushed together and then different chemicals going off. I don't believe, example given Darren, that you are just the chemical solution of different things popping in your brain that makes you you. I believe that you are an image bearer of God, that you are a spirit and that you have flesh, but you are going to live for eternity, and how you live for eternity is based on the decisions you make of whether or not you want to serve your life Overall, it's not like a lot of people, too, we can get into this.
Paul Daley:A lot of people think hell is punishment. It's not there to. Overall, it's not like a lot of people, too, we can get into this hell. A lot of people think hell is punishment. It's not. Uh, there's a line that I love, which is that the doors of hell are locked from the inside. People want to go to hell because they want separation from god, first commandment. Again to come back to this, you shall have no other gods before me. A lot of people want to make themselves their own god, the god of their own life. Meaning, realistically I don't want to surrender my life to god, I want, I want to be the own God of my life, and so they separate themselves from God. They'd rather go. You know, if heaven is eternity worshiping God, then they don't want to go there and so they'll go to hell, gladly, you know not gladly, it's probably the wrong word to use but the door, the the, you know, the doors from hell are locked from the inside is a great line of showing that you are the reason that you're there and you'd rather be there than being in a heaven where you're worshiping the one and true God.
Paul Daley:So, going back, the awareness right of a problem, secondary is methodology and so, realistically, methodology of solution In this case. You know, you can. You know if we were talking about biz ops. You can start an e-com store, you can go into drop shipping, you can do FBA, you can do agency, you can be a closer, et cetera. All the methods of making $10,000 a month once you realize that the problem is you're not making enough money.
Paul Daley:Same thing with evangelism or understanding that there is a God. First question is there a God? I have a problem, right, you know. I don't know if this guy is real, et cetera. I'm going to go to hell if this is real.
Paul Daley:There's like a logical question I have to ask myself that most people don't Secondary is okay, I do at it. Now that I've played out the genuine nihilistic thought and the you know the, the godly thought, I think this one is more plausible. Second thing that you have to then ask yourself is which method of revelation of God do I believe in? Do I believe in? And there's really three right Judaism, islam and Christianity. And if you look at Islam, I think anyone who subscribes to Islam would only do so because they were trained in, you know, through childhood, to believe in it. I don't think any mature adult would look at Islam and say that it is, for any reason, a logical decision to make to subscribe to that belief. I think that Islam is a cancer to the world and I would say that to any Muslim brother. I love you much and I want you to find who Christ is. I think Christ has a warm spot for Muslims.
Darren Lee:Judaism. What's the logic with that? Just out of curiosity.
Paul Daley:I'm going to paraphrase this as simply as I can into two points, right? So let me nix out Judaism, which, at the end, of the day is Judaism.
Paul Daley:If you look at Judaism, it takes a lot of ignorance to look at Judaism and then say that Jesus was not the Messiah. And so most people, if they look at Judaism, will look at Judaism, then see the Bible and say this is the obvious continuation of Judaism. So why would I become a Jew if I can become a Christian, like Jesus wanted me to be essentially right. So then you can get into Christianity and Islam and a lot of people don't recognize how Islam was founded right, and so there's a lot I can get into. This is one of my favorite conversations to have. But in short, to paraphrase this, islam started 500 years after Christ. No-transcript and I don't have it written down, but I memorized the entire actual revelation of God. And then, instead of spreading with love like Christianity, did they spread it with a sword and if you didn't subscribe to the belief of Islam you would be killed. And so Christians were killed, jewish people were killed, etc. That's why Islam spread so quickly. That's also why it dies so quickly, because it is not a foreign belief. You can also get into Ishmael and everything like that in the Old Testament with Abraham and how he's not blessed. There's a lot to this. But if you actually look at Islam with a mature lens, you cannot say that it's a logical. You know, I could even get into the fact that, like God is just, god is merciful.
Paul Daley:All three Abrahamic religions believe that Only one of them can that actually be true, two of them, if you count Judaism. But Judaism realistically goes into Christianity, and that's because, at the end of the day, you can't have a just God and a merciful God unless Christ dies on the cross. Because, realistically, let's say that I wronged you, darren, right, if I wronged you, I also probably sinned. If I wronged someone, that is sinned, well, not the only. If I wrong someone, that is sin, which means I sinned against god and I broke his law, but I also wronged you.
Paul Daley:So, god, if god is merciful, then he's going to let me off the hook, but then no, just has been given for you being wronged, you know. And so if god is just, then he's not going to be merciful to me because he's going to send me away, which is not merciful. And so the only way that you can find both, that tension that we kind of talked about earlier, is with Christ on the cross, because just was given, but it was given to Christ, who volunteered to take the wrath on himself instead of me, and then, because of that, the mercy of God can be bestowed on me, because Jesus says Father Paul's with me, right, and so anyway, that's the methodology. You have to look at those three relations and then after that is solution, meaning christianity, church, word of god, bible, prayer, etc. And so how you realign your priorities is going through the, the sales process.
Paul Daley:If you will that you take clients through awareness methodology and solution. Um, there's a secondary point in there that I'm forgetting, so excuse me for not being emotionally or verbally confident. I did.
Darren Lee:Dude, I love listening to you because you're so passionate about it, like you've done so much research into this. That's why I'm like asking, like, why do you believe that? Why do you think this? Because you haven't just, you know, learned it on Twitter 20 minutes ago. You've obviously read the Bible, like you know. It's very clear to me. That's why I'm curious. I'm like, oh, it's like, why is it like this, you know? Because I think, as you said, it's problem awareness. Most people, whether they're a prospect, a lead or someone reading the Bible or not, problem aware. They don't realize the issue that they have in front of them. So I think that's a great way for you to showcase that to people is like okay, here's what I've seen, because I remember.
Paul Daley:It's a YouTube video, bro, and if you want to make the YouTube video, anyone listening to this, it would make for a great YouTube video. I just haven't got around to it yet.
Darren Lee:It's a big thing, though, right, it's a big thing because what you need to realize is that the business will not solve your real problems, like the money. As Pomboise said, money only solves money problems. And then there's all the other problems that's going to show up in your life. How have you seen what you've done in the past couple years permeate into other aspects of your life, so into your families, your relationships, your fitness, because you've, after leaving educate, you know, a lot changed for you as well during that period of time define your question a little more.
Paul Daley:What do you? So you said how. How has x changed at other areas in my life? What is the x?
Darren Lee:yes. So when you realigned your fate, when you've left educate, how did that impact the rest of your other aspects of your life? Because I remember when you were in educate, you were working, you know, 20 hours a day, hustling, grinding 24 7. The majority of my guests run content businesses. They've used content as the main element of their business to drive more revenue and build their influence online. We've been doing this through a podcast for many years.
Darren Lee:We have many guests, clients and even customers use a podcast as their main source of driving more revenue for their business and building their influence online, and we're offering a handful of spots to book in a call with our team to learn how you yes, you can leverage a podcast to generate more revenue for your business and drive your influence online. Many of our clients and customers start from nothing, but each one of them are action takers and they want to learn more about how to build a podcast and a brand right around their business. So if you want to learn more and you're really interested in building a podcast, check out the link down below and book in a free call with our customer success manager and he will guide you into how you can build and generate more revenue from your podcast this year.
Paul Daley:Yeah, so I always like to clarify this. I didn't leave. Educate E-Mod did ask me to leave, which was the best thing to. Second best thing to ever happen to me. Third best thing one of the many best thing to ever happen to me. Third best thing one of the many best things to ever happen to me. Now that I say that, I just like I can think of a tier of best things to happen that are definitely more important.
Darren Lee:Um, why was that, or was there clarity on that?
Paul Daley:yeah, I think there's a few reasons. Number one is I, I think, toward okay, so I I've never said this publicly, but I think this is an important reason which is that when I first met imam, I was. I think this is actually important reason, which is that when I first met Iman, I was I think this is actually very, very important to note. Uh, talking about priorities and setting priorities straight Right, I first met Iman and I was Christian. I was what's called a born again Christian, right, um, but something had just happened with me, um, and a friend inside of the church, so I had stopped going to church for a little bit. This is really common.
Paul Daley:A lot of people will at some point encounter in their face some kind of uh tribulation inside of church. They stopped going to church. Uh, I started, you know, I stopped reading the Bible as often, uh, just a season of life, and during that is when I also started working with Iman. And so I started, I think, with right intentions and right priorities and and just overall, kind of uh, a slightly I lesser version of hopefully, who you see now, which is someone who's got their priorities straight and, hopefully, is warm and has others best interests at heart. But when I started working with Iman the circle of wealth, essentially that I was just shown and like the world that I kind of came into, unlike Iman that had grown into that, I kind of just got thrown into that. And it was.
Paul Daley:It's not that they were doing anything wrong by any means, but it's that when you get subjected to that amount of new, new temptation, that quickly, you know, in in first Corinthians it says that God will never, god will, will you know, submit you to temptation, but he'll never submit you to temptation. You never, uh, god will, will you know, submit you to temptation, but he'll never submit you to temptation. You can't handle it, I think, realistically, you know. But temptation is supposed to, you know, give you the ability to, in free will, say I don't choose that, I choose God, uh, and then through that, glorify God and build a better faith in God and build, build a better relationship, right, it's kind of like example given if you are, we were the only guy in the world and you had a girlfriend, but you were the only guy in the world, it's not really that special, but the fact that you are, you're married, correct, yeah, correct, yeah, the fact that you're married, but your wife had other options and still likely could talk to other guys if she wanted to, but she chooses you. That's the same relationship God wants to have, right? He's married to the church and he wants people to to to choose him in their own free will.
Paul Daley:So, all to say realistically, I was going through all you know a bad time with church. I wasn't in the word, I wasn't rooted the same way that I should have been. And then I'm subjected to all this stuff over the course of about two years and I would say, realistically, that the world won. So if you think about my heart, and then you have God pulling in one way and then you have the world pulling the other. The world is trying to destroy my soul. God is trying to save and redeem it. I think, realistically, I didn't.
Paul Daley:I wasn't rooted in God like I should have been, and so, just through the subject uh, subjection of that life, I think, realistically, my priorities started to get misaligned. I don't think I was a good leader toward my end of the tenure there. I don't think I was um, diligent like I should have been, disciplined, like I should have been. I don't think I was.
Paul Daley:I was a man worth number one, uh, leading number two, uh, a man that was able to evangelize and, I think, realistically, throughout the time, iman and I had a great Iman and I still talk. We talked for an hour like two weeks ago. He actually side note, just send me, I can shoot you the email, send me. Uh, I I was, we were talking about something and I was like he said do you need anything? I was like I can you know, use a new pair of glasses for the sun? Do you know anyone who has a good eyewear brand? And his response to that was got you. And he just yeah, I think there's. We were supposed to get at the post office today 23 pairs of gadgets or something just sent to me.
Paul Daley:So it's not like Iman and I are in that by any means, like through the subjection to the life that he lives without being rooted the right way and I think Iman is well-rooted, but without being rooted the right way at the time and going into that so quickly, I think I lost to the world and I think I chose the wrong side of how to live. Through that and I think I became someone that wasn't worth running a company as the CEO. I think he knew that, along with also wanting to change how he was modeling the companies and everything like that, and so I think, through a kind of a mix of events, he asked me to leave. So I don't I like to clarify that, because it wasn't that I left on my own accord. I think God did want me to leave on my own accord for many months because he wanted to draw me back to him and realign my priorities, but I ignored that calling.
Paul Daley:So another video that I'm actually thinking about making on YouTube is that, at the end of the day, when God calls for something, when God wants something in your life, he will give you time for you to to play out his want, but if you don't do it and he knows it's the best for you, he will impose his wants, which are the best for you, on on you. So he, I know, wanted me to leave for months. I could feel that toward my last, like three, four or five months, but I didn't do it, I ignored it. And he imposed the, the want on uh, and got me out. And it's the. And I remember, bro, the second that I, I submitted the resignation letter, I went across the street to this place that I have, uh, have lunch out every day, and I just felt so much peace because I don't know how to word it god just put peace in my heart and it was. It was amazing, uh, which is, I know, a tangent to the question that you wanted to get into, which is how dude?
Darren Lee:not, not at all.
Darren Lee:I think.
Darren Lee:I think that's really beautiful, though I would say I would say that's really beautiful because of the fact that just you know your relationship.
Darren Lee:There is this fact that I believe that if you truly trust someone, that you should like almost work with them, right.
Darren Lee:If you truly believe as a guy, like indeed, like we're not just going to have like a random, like fucking coffee date, right, we're just going to like, we're going to like work on things, strategize, work on this, work on this, just like even help each other, right, I think it's really good for someone to recognize that in you being like, look, you're best suited somewhere else, best aligned somewhere else, best aligned someone else like that's a real man-to-man conversation, versus like hiding it and like being misaligned slightly and then almost developing a grudge, right, it could work both ways because, because you feel tension in your heart and you feel tension how you want to be aligned, and I think that is that's a really like honest way to do things genuinely.
Darren Lee:Um and so, with the guys that I work with, we're extremely honest with each other and that's why we get along really well, right, we get along really well as well as working together. Uh, I think it's really important because, you know, I'm 20, I'm 29 on Saturday, man Jesus. Well, but one thing I've realized thank you so much.
Darren Lee:What I've realized is that a lot of the times, especially when you're younger, you hide the truth, like a lot of things. A lot of the hard conversations are hidden, and I know well I've interviewed Sal Bloom quite a few times and I've learned a lot from his writing. And the biggest thing is uh, debt carries a load and it increases. So if you have hard conversations and you don't, you don't have the conversations. It carries a debt on the relationship. It's compound interest.
Paul Daley:Sometimes it has to get bad, yeah.
Darren Lee:Sometimes debts get paid right, bro.
Paul Daley:I love that and I give a lot of credit to you, mom, for and I think I do the same too of not. You know, it's essentially the way of looking at it. This is my favorite way of explaining this is that if you look at Jesus, jesus was not nice, jesus was kind, right, and so a lot of people are nice, which is what makes them not, you know, want to have the confrontation of having uncomfortable conversations, because they don't want to upset people. So nice is avoiding confrontation, you know, getting walked on. Nice guys finish last, et cetera.
Paul Daley:Being kind is being willing to have those confrontational conversations with a warm and kind heart and compassion toward the situation. And I think, realistically, when you model toward that I think Iman models that well, I hope, and I try to model that well, but I think realistically, that's again in the tension of being a man. It's being steadfast and righteousness, but also being compassionate and warm, right, and so realistically, you know, if you try to be nice, you're far, way too far to the left. You don't have the conversation. A lot of people are willing to have the conversation but they're just kind of dicks when they do it and there's no compassion and that's being too far to the right. The you know ability that you probably have with your team is to do it in the middle, where it's warm and compassionate but still steadfast, and making sure that if something is wrong, uh, you're you're pointing that out.
Darren Lee:Does that make sense? That's a fantastic point, because and this is a really good conversation it's really modeled in terms, in terms of, like, how to actually just be a better person Like how do you live at the highest level whereby you're helping the most people and you're also living in alignment, what you want to do?
Darren Lee:right, that's. That's really the theme of this conversation, because what I do find is that to have those conversations with someone, they also need to be going through that development, that sense of micro person development or whatnot. Because if you're trying to have this conversation with someone which I've had in the past, some guys you know in their 50s and 60, someone which I've had in the past, some guys you know in their fifties and sixties, some guys just can't take the conversation, unfortunately, because they haven't been able to sit with the fact that, yeah, not everything is perfect all the time. Right, you're going to need to be able to face problems and just communicate effectively. I did this with my wife. Right, we have, when there's something, we have to work through something together as a team, but I think the other person needs to recognize that to be able to receive it. There's that aspect too, right?
Paul Daley:Yeah, I think a lot of the time when people don't recognize it, it's normally out of pride. You know, and so you know in Proverbs I would. Have you ever read the book of Proverbs? I haven't. I think it would be a life-changing experience for you if you read the book of proverbs.
Paul Daley:And what and side note whether you're a christian or not, um, or you believe in god or not, the book of proverbs is the essentially wisdom. It's the big, it's the the book of wisdom, if you will, in the world, right, and it is. It is not going to address every single situation you could think of specifically, but it's going to address every single way to approach any kind of situation that you could think of, and a lot of. In Proverbs it really talks about fools and wise men, and I think what you're talking about here is like when you're trying to be wise and have those conversations wise, being knowledgeable and acting out knowledge in a wise manner, kind of thing. Wise is almost like being a wise man is being someone who is humble and understands the knowledge he has is blessing from God.
Paul Daley:You know, one of the things it says in Proverbs is, or it might be, corinthians or James, I can't remember what book it is, but I think it's James Knowledge, if you know, without understanding fear of the Lord, it will puff you up and you get an ego, et cetera. And so a lot of people, when they aren't willing to have, you know, confrontational conversations, it's normally either that they're scared of confrontation or they are so prideful that they're not willing to take feedback. You know, in both cases those normally are very destructive personality traits.
Darren Lee:What's your advice for someone to become a better leader?
Paul Daley:I think realistically. Just, you know everything that we talked about in this so far. You know, yesterday, my video offer is over here, but we were at dinner and he I'm going to Ollie, is it cool if I say what you told me yesterday at dinner. Thank you, bro, appreciate you. So yesterday he told me that he's worked for a lot of people in video, um, but out of everyone he's worked with, that he, I'm the one he'd be willing to do anything for. Uh, and I think it's because and I think even we even talked about a little bit, um, it's because of the tension I told you I try to live in, you know, I, you can ask ollie, I will be stern with him and let him know when he's messed up and and I will, I will correct and correct and correct. He said that in one year and not one year and one trip of working with me I think it was about a month and a half he learned more than he did in three years of university, cause I, I, I am um, if you ever spend time with me, I'm crazy on making sure that everything around is just as optimal as it can be Right. So that's the steadfast side and at least business. But then on the on the other side, I love all the death and I do it all because I want him to get better and I do it all because I you know, I think that he has all the potential in the world and so when I have any kind of conversation with him, it's it's in knowing that I am not doing it for my own accord, but for his own accord, and he's not going to work with me for life I would like for that. But he's talented, he'll have tons of opportunities come up and I want him to grow in his potential as much as possible. And I think when, and even at Educate, when I think about Educate, there are guys at Educate James Galligan, who you probably heard the name of, will talk about this with me and like Max the COO now and stuff, I would hope can say this but my my first year in change.
Paul Daley:I think that's how I operated and I led. I led with with wanting to pour into people so that they could be the best versions of themselves, and I think, toward my end of tenure there, it was from self interest. Uh, and one of the things I even talked about. There's a video I have on YouTube about this. I read this in a book. Couldn't tell you for the life of me what book it was. It was Jocko Williams, nevermind, maybe a masterclass with Jocko, but it's called Leadership Capital.
Paul Daley:And so if you think about the relationship you have with your team and this is like not the heart posture to have toward it, but it's a good framework of kind of understanding what your heart posture is supposed to act like, right but if you think about your relationship with your team as like a bank account, every time you pour into your team, every time whether it's like you pour into them, you you show them that or tell them you did, they did a great job, I'm talking. I'm talking small things, like proud of you, to big things, like just pouring all of your effort into them, really showing them how much you love them. It's all depositing into a bank account, but every single time you're stern and steadfast and corrective, or asking them to go above and beyond, or asking them to work on something, even if you know it's out of work hours, or whatever you want to call it. That's deposit or withdrawing from the bank account, and so you can either withdraw or deposit into the bank account. I feel like most leaders are, because they're not that warm, compassionate, pouring in. They're just depositing from a bank account that they have like little cash in and eventually, you know, you'll have a negative balance and people leave.
Paul Daley:Or people will say, you know, I don't want to work with Paul, or blah blah, blah, um. And so I think, realistically, it all comes back to having that proper tension as a man or as a woman. Woman, you know, or led to to um, like two different but also you know, righteous callings in, in, in acting like, like they're like Christ. I don't want to speak to that because, to be honest with you, I'm not versed at all in how women are supposed to act when it comes to leadership like that. But, all to say, if you have that tension, I'm going to speak to the guys here as a man of steadfast, making sure that you don't stand for anything but what's right, but also being compassionate and warm and kind in the delivery of that. I think everyone will will want to work with you and will want to be led by you it's a beautiful part to finish up on, man.
Darren Lee:I really appreciate you, as always.