#288 Jake Julius - How to Win Any Argument Effortlessly

Watch This NEXT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlK2P76_ZZs

Want me to give you some help with your content business? Book in a call with me to discuss working together: https://www.voics.co/schedule


(00:00) Preview
(00:36) Jake’s Method to Win Any Argument  
(01:46) Why Logic Beats Emotion in Debates  
(05:51) What Debating Religion is Actually Like
(09:34) Jake’s Journey from Atheist to Christian  
(13:30) The Rules of Logic and Spotting Fallacies  
(17:53) How Christianity Changed Western Values  
(24:08) How to Change Minds Through Debate  
(27:21) The Truth About Stats and Misleading Data  
(29:57) Objective Morality Explained  
(33:37) The Trans Debate
(39:51) Masculine vs Feminine Problem Solving  
(42:25) Why Men Resonate with Andrew Tate 
(46:16) Direct vs Subtle Leadership Styles  
(49:05) Why Most Clients Don’t Take Ownership  
(52:55) Why Jake Mentors Serious Creators Only  
(56:38) How to Build Your Brand Online  
(01:00:09) Jake Julius’ Daily YouTube Workflow  
(01:03:02) The Bigger Vision Behind RattlesnakeTV  
(01:10:20) Why Jake’s Channel Exploded on YouTube  
(01:27:48) The Power of Public Speaking for Creators  
(01:37:20) Jake’s Advice for Aspiring YouTubers

Chapters

• 0:00 The Foundations of Effective Debate
• 8:53 Logic vs. Worldviews in Religious Debates
• 24:45 Jake's Journey from Atheism to Christianity
• 40:39 The Psychology of Persuasive Communication
• 54:50 Jake's Story: From Failed Podcaster to Success
• 1:09:55 Building a Successful YouTube Channel
• 1:25:46 Creating Content People Actually Want
• 1:38:38 Final Advice: Never Do the Money Dance

Transcript

Jake: 0:00

There are some people out there who are very, very good debaters, and also you have to have a coherent worldview. So if you want to use logic to its greatest effect, then you have to have a logical worldview. If you go up there and you're just sort of spitting facts, you might be spitting bars, you might be saying truth and everything, but if you're not a little bit funny and a little bit warm and smiling and speaking directly to people as well, if you speak to the audience, it can be overwhelming, but if you isolate people in the audience, then that's much, much better thing to do. We have these rules where we're like we cannot falter on the 1%, because that's what separates us from everybody else, and like we're really harsh with ourselves. Whenever I mess something up and it's a small thing instantly try and take accountability.

Darren: 0:38

What if you could win any argument not by being louder, but by being sharper? Jake Julius is the founder of Rattlesnake TV, a YouTube channel with over 800,000 subscribers built entirely on one thing Clear, persuasive communication. In this episode, we unpack Jake's exact framework for persuasion how to speak with clarity, dismantle weak ideas and influence anyone through logic, not emotion. This one's not about debating for sport. It's about mastering communication to win in business life and leadership. Where I want to start is how can you win any argument with logic and persuasion?

Jake: 1:17

Well, I mean, any argument is a difficult one because there are some people out there who are very, very good debaters and also you have to have a coherent worldview. So if you want to use logic to its greatest effect, then you have to have a logical worldview, and this is why we see a lot of people who are in this sort of like trans movement, for example. It's an illogical worldview, so they actually can't win these arguments as much as they try. Like the other week I debated a few guys and the debate prompt was is misgendering people hate speech? That's a really tough one to defend because it's illogical, because when you, when you look at gender, obviously gender is something that's that's, we're just going straight into the weeds here, by the way, we're just going straight for the bunches. So if you look at the gender argument, for example, it's completely illogical because what it actually comes down to at its foundation is that I can just choose my sex. I can choose that I want to be, and that's an illogical worldview.

Jake: 2:17

And the way that they were trying to argue it with me was by saying there's been these brain scans done and these brain scans show that actually, um, people who identify as trans have more of a female type brain. And I'm like and I said, okay, sure, I'll even grant you that that there are these brain scans that have been done and these people show that, um, they're the wrong gender in their brain. What if they don't feel like they are? And they were like what do you mean? And I said, if a man apparently has this female brain but he says, no, I'm a man, is he a man or is he a woman? The logic of that is that he's a man because he said he is and that's always what it refers to.

Jake: 2:57

So if I've done my brain scan and I'm a man and I say, but I feel like a woman, then what's this activist going to say? He says, well, he's a woman because he feels like it. So it doesn't matter about these brain scans, it doesn't matter about this other evidence that you can basically pull out of your ass. Whatever they feel like is what they are. So it's an illogical worldview. So if you're coming from a worldview like that, then you can't really use logic to win the argument, because you don't have a logical worldview.

Darren: 3:25

So you're saying you need to approach it only with logic, not emotion, to face an argument, to face a debate.

Jake: 3:34

Yeah, what I was saying is the worldview is what's really important first of all. Right, because if you actually follow logic to its conclusion, to its logical conclusion, then you're going to arrive at certain truths. And it depends on if you resist those truths because of your ideological persuasion or if you go with those truths, like, for example, these people. You can tell them until the cows come home about biology and about logic and about all of these things that we can observe that are just objectively true, but they will refuse to actually engage with those truths because they have a certain ideological leaning that doesn't allow them to do that. So their worldview is foundationally illogical, so they actually can't use logic is working against them in that debate. How do you get someone?

Darren: 4:17

to see the logical order as a result, because is there an argument that your view is also skewed right? Like I say, everyone's viewed is entire, inherently biased yes, yep, everyone's view is definitely inherently biased.

Jake: 4:35

So this is when debate becomes very interesting. Right, because if you look at it, for example, like the atheist debates versus the religious debates, the atheists can make some really strong arguments. Right, the religious people Christians can make some really strong arguments. Muslims can make some really strong arguments, and this is when these arguments will compete against each other. The natural biases will be there, because people have different sort of religious leanings and persuasions.

Jake: 5:01

However, there are certain things that people will try and argue that just are more or less indefensible, like, for example, the gender debate, and this is something that's been like actually in the debate sphere. It's been crushed and no one really wants to take that side anymore, unless you're a little bit crazy. However, the question that you asked, though, that plays out more in, for example, the religious debates, like is secularism better for society? Is Christianity better for society? Should we have Christianity in the government? Should we have religious foundations and principles that influence our political decisions, etc. This is when both sides can make really good arguments and, yeah, obviously they're going to be biased as well.

Darren: 5:41

Just want to take one quick break to ask you one question have you been enjoying these episodes? Because, if you have, I'd really appreciate if you subscribe to the channel so that more people can see these episodes and be influenced to build an online business this year. Thank you, dude. This is super interesting and that's why I really wanted to sit down with you on this.

Darren: 5:59

So let's look at debate through the lens of religion. You said about the atheist belief being like somewhat logical. Right, they're able to be like, oh, maybe they're. Like, you can't see it. So therefore, it can't be true, right? And I was thinking from our chat on Friday, I've been like, what are my beliefs? Like what the fuck are my beliefs, you know?

Darren: 6:20

So I grew up in a Christian country, but I wouldn't say that, like, my family are Christian. They are Christian, they would say that they are, but they don't practice it, right, so they just practice it. And then I guess I grew up just not really thinking about it, like I don't think about am I Christian, am I atheist? I don't think about it, right. I just it's not something that's that's active to me and therefore I, as a result, therefore, to struggle to say I am atheist because I I'm also not atheist in terms of I'm not like I don't have a stamp in the ground to say religion isn't real. Yeah, but then I also just don't have the time. I don't have the time, I don't give the time to be like oh, I've read the bible, I've read x, I've read. So how do you think about that? Because what do you think about debating about religion as a result? Because you're speaking with people who are either very strongly in their belief system or they just haven't thought about it.

Jake: 7:21

Interesting. Yeah, I'd say, from your explanation, you're not an atheist because atheism has a very specific meaning. So if you look at just the etymology of the word atheist atheist, atheist right and if you put R-A before a word, the R negates the theist right. So if you're saying that you're an atheist, you're saying that there is no God. You have a conviction and a belief that there is no God. So I've spoken to a few people about this and they'll say I'm an atheist. And I'll say what do you mean by that? They were like well, you know, I just don't, I'm just not really sure. And I'm saying well, you're not an atheist, what you are is an agnostic. Because agnostic you look at the etymology of that word agnostic means, and I think that all people are in some way agnostic. Because we don't have ultimate knowledge, right, we have logic and we have reason and we can arrive at certain conclusions. But when you're a religious person, when you're a deist, or if you're a Christian, or if you're a Muslim, you're making a knowledge claim, right? And so this is a really interesting philosophical conversation around the idea of epistemology.

Jake: 8:25

So epistemology is is the study of knowledge, right? How do we know what we know, what do we know? And then like, how can we, how can we know it to be true? So you've got like socrates back in the day, who you you've heard of like the socratic method, right? So this is where this all comes from.

Jake: 8:43

Is the ancient greeks who asked questions. He would just go around and he'd ask people what do you think about this? They'd say what they think. How do you know that? Why, why, why, why. And then you get down to the root of it and you find out why people think what they think and why they know what they know, right. So I'd say it's interesting when you look at it from the different perspectives, about how people arrive at their own knowledge claims. So I'd say that you're probably more in the agnostic camp because you just feel as though you're without knowledge to make a truth claim, to make an epistemological claim. I definitely am a Christian, but I've arrived at that through like the philosophical process of going down that epistemological path and trying to understand. If I say I know something, how do I know that? And so I used to be a B atheist, right, and would you say you did the research to be an atheist.

Jake: 9:41

No, no, I was a fool. I was a moron. Was what? I was? Right if I spoke to my younger self, because I used to be one of those really cocky atheists who would make fun of religious people like, oh, you believe in a sky, daddy, you believe in some bearded man in the sky? But I was a moron because I had no idea what I was talking about. I hadn't, like, I had no logical justification for my worldview, right? So then the uh, the thing that in 2019, 2020 that we don't really like to speak about on YouTube too much, so we lose a corporate reason. You may remember that thing. That happened, yeah, with the cough cough or whatever. So that happened.

Jake: 10:16

And then something strange happened where I was seeing a lot of evil take place around me, and I think that, naturally, I'm a very disagreeable person, so I'm very like, I'm quite repulsed by government overreach and these sorts of things, and I would have considered myself a libertarian back then, which is I believe in liberty and freedom and that people should be able to self-actualize, but I'm an atheist. But then I started to see all this evil and when I encountered the evil, I thought to to myself well, what, what is that that I'm actually encountering here. Is that real? Or is this just something that is a social construct and it's a figment of our imagination, and that if, ultimately nothing matters? If I'm an atheist and I believe that we're all just matter in motion, we're all just basically stardust and we're just. We were fish and then we became philosophers and we're all destined to perish in a heat death one day. If I actually believe that, then what's evil that actually doesn't exist, right, it's just a pure figment of the imagination. So I started to look into it. Have this sort of existential crisis, in a way, where I was thinking to myself well, evil, if I'm observing evil, then this is just my own perception, it's my own preference, basically, of what is evil and what isn't. But if evil does exist, if evil is a metaphysical reality and when you talk about metaphysical, you're talking about things that don't exist within the physical right so we've got physics, things that we can observe and touch and feel and put under a microscope, and then you've got metaphysics, which is things like love, for example. It's a metaphysical concept, philosophical idea, Anyway.

Jake: 11:49

So I started to look at these different concepts and think, well, if evil exists and if evil is real, there has to be a counter to that, there has to be a good and there has to be love and all these sorts of things which I inherently and intuitively know, right. So then I started to look into what the good is, and obviously you come to religious conversations, because you can't have these conversations without exploring religious ideas, and so I started to think, well, if there is an ultimate good like well, what is typically represented as an ultimate good and generally what's typically represented as an ultimate good, is God right, god is love, god is justice, god is mercy, god is good, all of these sorts of things, and I'm like treading in waters that I find very sort of conspiratorial and everything at this stage, and so I started to look into the logic of it. What do the Christians actually say about God? Do they have any actual logical justification? Because throughout my teenage years and 20s years, I've been looking at these debates online where you'll see Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris and all of these guys using this beautiful, lovely, flowery rhetoric to just destroy these priests, right, and to destroy these Christians in a debate. So I started watching them in longer format and at this stage I was looking at the rules of debate and the rules of logic.

Jake: 13:10

And once you start looking into that tell me if I'm getting on too much of a tangent here, by the way but once you start looking into the rules of logic and the rules of debate, you start to realize that it's like a game of chess, right, so there are rules to the game. I can't grab my castle and move diagonally In regards to logic and debate and these sorts of things. That would be a logical fallacy. Right, there are actually rules to the game.

Jake: 13:35

And so what I started to realize when I looked into the rules of logic and the rules of conversation and debate and et cetera, is that a lot of the times, what the atheists were doing was just using quite flagrant logical fallacies. They would use a lot of appeal to emotion, right? They would say, well, if God is real, then why would he have done this and that, why is this so much suffering? Look at these little children in Africa. They're suffering so much. It's actually not a logical argument, that's just an appeal to emotion, right, and they would use a lot of rhetoric beautiful rhetoric, mind you, christopher Hitchens is an absolute wordsmith. But you look at the Christian arguments and they're actually coming to logical justifications about why they believe in God. Right, so we can get into it if you want. But there are a few really killer arguments, I think, when it comes to the existence of God and to get back to your question, that's how I've sort of incorporated that into my own worldview is just by looking at the logic of all of it.

Darren: 14:35

But I think that evolution in you, going from atheist to Christian, is also part of the debate process whereby you're willing to change your beliefs depending on information that's given to you.

Darren: 14:48

Oh yeah, right, whereas, like, most people are entrenched in their beliefs but they don't know why they're doing what they're doing. Like this is like the NPC argument, right, people are, you know, level six soil dynamics is stuck in the system, but they don't know why they believe it. So I have people that are like, used to be close to me that, would you know, die on the sword for what they believe in. This could be. It could be religion, it could be just society, it could be how you should approach a job, how you should approach your life, how you should approach everything, but they don't have a reason why they actually believe it. Right.

Darren: 15:19

So I would prefer to not have any belief, right, in terms of being like, I don't, I'm not tied to a certain belief system, purely due to a lack of information, and that lack of information. Taking responsibility is my responsibility, you know if I become more educated on X, y, z, but I think it's to the point earlier which you mentioned, that you know, do I really believe in what I believe or am I just fucking given it and like why do I think something? And this can be, but this can be anything. That's why this is really good, because, looking at something like religion is so this is fragmented, right, and it's so divisive, but that this is a roll-up example for fucking everything negotiation speaking relationships, pretty much everything oh yeah, 100 man to be able to like.

Jake: 16:05

I think that we have such a such a padding around us and such a foundation around us of of values that have been, that have come from a christian worldview. By the way, um, before christianity, this is a really interesting thing to look into. The world pre-christianity was not what what it is today in terms of ethics and sexual morality and the way we look at individuals as valuable, et cetera. But, yeah, can you explain how that is? Yeah, so there's a guy called Tom Holland who has a book called Dominion and basically it's going through the history of Christianity Just as one example.

Jake: 16:38

I don't want to get this video demonetized, but so, for example, in the Roman empire right, the way that the Romans treated their slaves was subhuman right, and they used to get little, little babies and they used to like cast them out if they had any, any deficiencies.

Jake: 16:56

Same with the Greeks, like we didn't actually have the value for the human being as as we do now, and then we also didn't really have the idea of, like a monogamous marriage.

Jake: 17:06

We didn't have the idea that men had to have had to have sexual temperance, which is another big one as well. So Christianity bought that around, and guys like St Paul in the Bible, for example um, they, they, uh, they. They're responsible for the idea of male sexual temperance, which is wild, because back in the Roman empire and before that, romans could treat their slaves however they wanted and they had the same word for urination and for ejaculation and like they basically just treated their slaves as just like orifices for them to, you know, get off on. And then this all changed with when Christian morality, morality and christian ethics came around. So it's a really interesting look into the history of it. But nowadays we have that around us but we actually don't really know the foundation of that. We think that that's just the way to go, and it's super interesting when you look at all of these sort of like left-wing causes around the world.

Darren: 18:01

they're just throwbacks to christian ideas and just to expand on that I say this to everyone which is, if you look at, like I said, as basic as the ten commandments are in terms of high level overarching themes whether you believe in the bible or christianity or not are they not? Is this just not how you should live your life? Yeah, just in general. Yeah, right. So like that's my kind of argument, the whole thing, which is, I can look at that as someone who's not like a devoted christian and just say I, I want to strive to hit all of those things on a daily basis yeah I want to take care of my wife, want to take care of, like, my family.

Darren: 18:36

I want to push, like our name forward. I want to be respectful to others, I want to help other people. Is that not like the theme of the host, right? Yeah, and then if you were to look at maybe like a different religion, maybe there's a different angle or slant on it, but I would say that maybe those values are also what you should also be doing every day. So I know that's a very basic view on this, but maybe the basic view can be right.

Jake: 18:59

Well, the basic view is is like, sometimes you don't have to intellectualize these things so much. Sometimes we can look at it from the basic view and just start from the first principles, which is exactly what you just did. You just look at it from a but that's an intelligent thing to do. You look at it from first principles. What do we believe? Why do we believe that we should be good to people, et cetera? Well, I believe that because I'll have a thriving life, the people around me will be happy, et cetera. However, you look through history, and history has been basically a series of warring tribes fighting for resources. That's what. That's what history is, and it still is. That, of course, today, right, but, um, you know, these days we have like uh, I'm not making an argument for, like the UN or for any of these sorts of things, things, but these days we generally have, you know, rules of war and we have rules of engagement, etc. The treaties. Yeah, exactly so, we have some sort of like civility about it, but history has. If you look at the babylonians and the assyrians and the ottoman empire and all these things, it's just warring tribes. The mongols, for example, just ruthless, ruthless killers. The Aztecs and the Mayans, as much as people think that they're sort of like, you know, hippies who just sort of sit around and drink ayahuasca, they're actually pretty freaking brutal dude, like Aztecs were cutting out people's hearts and sacrificing them to sun gods, etc. But this is a really key difference and, like whether you're a Christian or not, not, I think it's just interesting to look into the history of this, because before, like um, before like christianity, uh, there were the. The religions around the world were basically all terrified of demons, right. So they were all doing these things to constantly appease these sun gods and these demonic sort of entities Aztecs, for example, sacrificing virgins, sacrificing children, et cetera, like the Nordic and the pagans, et cetera. Lots of like very demonic stuff. But then the central idea of Christianity whether you look at it as an idea or a reality is that God incarnated came down in human form and he suffered and died for humanity so that he could actually defeat evil and defeat death and these ideas, right. So it's just a different theology.

Jake: 21:15

But from what I was saying before about the left-wing causes, for example, you look at the Me Too movement, right. What the Me Too movement is and it's kind of ironic is the Me Too movement is a call for male sexual temperance. That's something that didn't exist pre-Christianity, right? Men, basically, were able to take slaves if they were wealthy enough and there was no taboo whatsoever on them doing whatever they wanted to those slaves, to those female slaves, right. Christianity came around and it said no, men have to control their sexual temperances. It's unacceptable for you to treat women as sexual objects, right, and you have to treat women with love and respect and dignity. That was radical. That was a radical idea in the Roman Empire. You could tell men what they could do with their slaves, right.

Darren: 21:58

So how was that introduced into the Roman Empire?

Jake: 22:00

So the Apostle Paul. He wrote about this in his different letters and the ideas of what it should mean for how men should go about their relationships. And then, slowly, after the death of Jesus, the apostles went around sort of like what would be now, like Palestine and the Middle East, and around through parts of Europe and Greece, et cetera, turkey, and they spread this message slowly and they were all put to their deaths for this. They were all eventually executed in brutal ways for this, and then the Christians were seen as these, like really rebel tribes, and then, like the Roman Empire, roman Emperor Nero persecuted the Christians. He used to put them in the Colosseum and have lions kill them and they were severely, severely persecuted. But then it slowly, um, slowly, built up to the to then when constantine, the emperor of rome, became christian and christianity actually took over the roman empire.

Jake: 22:59

So but yeah, the me too thing. It's really interesting because it's a call for male sexual ethics. Right, it's kind of a Christian idea, it's so interesting, but they mock it. It's really interesting. It's this paradox that's happening, where they will actually mock like the ideas of Christianity and conservatism and conservative sexual ethics. They will protest by going and getting their tits out in the street and you know like doing all these things. And they've got've got the Handmaid's Tale. You know the Handmaid's Tale. It's this book and this sort of series where it's basically speaking about Puritanism, where these women are covered and they're just used as sort of reproductive machines and the men are all whatever. So they've got all these different ways of mocking conservatism and mocking Christian and traditional values, but what they're doing is a callback to reinculcate Christian values of sexual temperance amongst men. So it's interesting just the way that those dynamics work.

Darren: 24:01

That's super, super interesting. How do you so when you're debating, when you're speaking to someone, when you're communicating with anyone, right, people will say, especially in sales, you can't change someone's beliefs. How do you do that in debate? Yeah.

Jake: 24:17

Okay, well, I actually don't normally try and change somebody's belief in a debate. My idea is not to change the belief of the person that I'm sitting across from, because normally they're going to have their feet dug in about it, but the idea is to try and influence the people who listen to the debate. So there are going to be lots of people who are listening to it, many people who are undecided and like. I like to think of myself in this regard, because this is how I came to sort of believe. What I believe is that I listen to very compelling speakers and I listen to very compelling debaters and I like to just think about it from a logical standpoint of like, how, who's making the best argument here? And if I look into the claims and if I do, what is this great line with um?

Jake: 24:58

A guy called matt taibi, a journalist, said, and he goes let the facts be the boss. Right, so you're not the boss, the facts are the boss and you follow the facts where the facts are going to go. So if you look at an argument and you let the facts be the boss and you let the logic be the boss and you follow it where it will lead you and you try and be as objective as possible which is almost impossible, by the way then you can stumble your way along a road laden by obstacles to something arriving at like a truth claim.

Darren: 25:28

Before we go any further, I have one question for you. Do you want to generate more leads for your business? Well, I've put together an entire system how anyone can use a podcast to generate more leads for their business, and the best part is, you don't even need a podcast to get started. I've created an entire guide and framework for you to be able to get more guests, more clients, more customers, more people in your pipeline and generate more revenue. This exact system is available right in the description down below, and you'll be able to leverage a podcast to generate more leads for your business and be able to increase your exposure, increase your authority and increase your influence in your industry.

Darren: 26:03

So check that out right down below. Okay, let's look at that. So, if you were following the stats, it's funny because Elisa's father worked in medical device sales like true as in sales, true as 20s and 30s and he would tell me stories about how pharmaceutical companies would basically run these studies that were self-funded by them, that were total bullshit, that would prove like sugar's healthy, smoking's healthy, all this kind of stuff.

Darren: 26:32

It's like getting the students to mark their own work exactly right and again, they're only funding stuff which they know they'll have a positive return on right. So, and that's why he like whenever we speak we always speak openly about this he would just say, like he doesn't, he doesn't believe like supplements as a result, because, like whoever's providing us he'll. I know obviously things can change right, but for the most part, the things that were introduced in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s he was the one selling them and he was like, straight up, like a lot of it's bullshit.

Darren: 27:01

Now, with that as a framework, can people have facts that are just not well taught out properly, not well examined properly, and then bring them into a debate? Like I think I watched one not well examined properly and then bring them into a debate? Like I think I watched one of your episodes recently and I think it was Destiny, talking about like X amount of percent of people from, like, foreign nationals should be working in the US for this reason. But you had like a statistic, right. What I'm trying to say is like can these statistics be muddled in? Just bullshit?

Jake: 27:33

Yeah, in just bullshit. Yeah, contrived is the word you're looking for with contrived statistics, which means that they're intentionally um, they're taken, and then they're intentionally flipped and scripted in a way to try and make somebody's point. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's a. That's the reality of it. It means that they've they've developed that narrative themselves yeah, and I think this can work either.

Darren: 27:50

It can work in a non-malicious way too. I'll give you some example. In our marketing, we say that over 86% of people that are warm traffic turn into customers. Therefore, you should develop a content system that gets people warm prospects for you. That's one it's also true, but then we're doing it in a way so that people start working with us. So I didn't say about the other percentage right, so we use a positive data point for our benefit. Now, that could be right or wrong, ethically or morally, but everyone does it. So I'm trying to say, like, how do we draw the line here? Because if you just follow the numbers, that number is correct, but it's used in a way to benefit us financially.

Jake: 28:30

It depends on how you use the number right. So, for example, if you're arguing, say, for immigration, which is a very common debate in the United States, something that people will do is they'll bring a stat to the debate which might throw off the other person. Or they'll say, where immigrants are way less likely to commit crimes than natural born Americans. And so the audience is thinking, oh shit, immigrants are way less likely to commit crimes and maybe we should have more of them, because you know, natural born Americans commit more crime. Maybe we should have less of them.

Jake: 29:02

But the way that that statistic has been contrived is that they're not looking at it per capita, they're just looking at it in general. So obviously there's 330 million Americans, and then there's maybe, like you know. So obviously there's 330 million Americans, and then there's maybe like 10, 20 million immigrants or something like that, or like 10 million illegal immigrants. There's so many more Americans. Obviously they're going to commit more crimes than the 10 million, but if you look at it per capita, the illegal immigrants is way, way higher. So that's a contrived statistic that is used dishonestly. But if you've got a real statistic about, for example, sales leads and that that's something that's borne out by reality that if you can turn warm leads into clients, then you're just using a positive data. Point.

Jake: 29:43

That is a fact, so I don't see anything wrong with that.

Darren: 29:47

Okay, this is super interesting. Okay, so what advice would you have for people that are trying to put together an argument, a debate, Like how do you go from ground zero with this right? Because I think people don't realize that maybe a lot of their conversations could be debates. Right, there's also that side of it too, but you've drawn a straight line between the two.

Jake: 30:05

Yeah, I would say the best thing that people can do is try and understand that there is truth in the world, right that we're not, like I said before, we are going to stumble our way to that. Then maybe by the time I'm 80 years old I might be wise enough to be able to actually observe some sort of objective truth in the world and have a really solid worldview. I know that my worldview at the moment would be completely flawed If I debated someone who was really proficient in another way. Then I could have my mind changed. At the moment, I think that I have observed a lot of first principles that are true, but a lot of time people get caught up in this really bad trap of thinking my truth, your truth.

Jake: 30:44

Well, that's my truth and that's their truth and there is no truth. It's just sort of like everyone goes about life in their own different way and there's no right or wrong way to go about it. That's just factually incorrect. There are right and wrong ways to go about life and I think that we can all observe this right. So I really don't want to get this podcast demonetized, but I'm going to try and explain this in the least most graphic way possible. But it's a really strong argument, right.

Jake: 31:09

So there's a tribe in Papua New Guinea, right, really strong arguments. Right? So there's a tribe in Papua New Guinea, right, and we'll call them the semen semen warriors. Right? So what they do is they will take the young boys away from their mothers at seven or eight years old and they will have them ingest the semen of these warriors because they believe this is what they believe. This is a 100% factual thing that happens in this culture that if they do that, then the young boy will become a warrior. So they will have to swallow that and then it makes them become a warrior.

Jake: 31:43

So I think that we can all look at that and we can think that's wrong. You don't want little kids having to do that. There is no scientific basis for that being a reality and that's extremely damaging. But the problem is that this is a deeply embedded culture, so the little kids believe this as well. They believe that this is how they become a good warrior, right? The problem, if you have this moral relative because that's what it is, moral relativism is that everything is just relative and morals aren't objectively true and everyone can just live life in a different way. If you take that moral relativist standpoint, then you actually don't have a justification for why what they're doing is wrong. Right, I think we can all kind of ensure that that is just wrong.

Jake: 32:24

You can't have a society structured like that because it's extremely damaging. So I think you can sort of work from the ground up and you can realize, all right, there are really super wrong ways to go about it. For example, sexualizing kids and having these sorts of practices with children. That's wrong. Like them having parents who love them Right would look like them having good socialization, good social skills, their right would look like them having friends and then eventually becoming an adult human being that's well socialized and that can have positive relationships with men and women Not men and women, but depending on what sex they are but they can have positive relationships with their husbands and wives one day, that they will be good parents themselves and then they will extrapolate the good into the world, right?

Jake: 33:19

I think that we can all kind of agree that those things are really necessary. So I'd say one of the really important things is to avoid moral relativism, right, and to understand that there are better and worse ways to go about things. And the whole my truth, your truth thing is just it's it's it's logically incoherent well, I guess that's why like transgender debate is so like debated right.

Darren: 33:45

It's because people will look at it from a moral lens. Would you? Would you agree with that, or would you say that? Yeah, it's definitely a moral like is that the reason, one of the reasons why? Because it's like it's not about logic. Well, that's not a logic. They're not looking at a true logic, but they're saying morally like you can do what you want, versus no, you shouldn't do that for that reason or whatever, would you? Is that a fair assumption, absolutely?

Jake: 34:06

absolutely totally right, like it's definitely a moral argument, right, because oftentimes the the arguments coming from those people will be that you will make them feel sad and these people are really much more likely to self-harm and to self-delete and all these sorts of things. So if you don't affirm what they're saying, then basically you've got blood on your hands. That's an emotional argument, that's an appeal to emotion. That's a logical fallacy, right? So when you look at the chessboard the logic chessboard that I was saying before that is grabbing your castle and moving diagonal you cannot do that. That's an appeal to emotion. There has to be a logical justification. It's also an assumption, though. Yeah, it is, it is also an assumption.

Darren: 34:59

Because, like, if, if you just said, oh, I don't think that's a good idea for, let's say, the people that they influence, let's say that, the kids that come through as a result, five or 10 years time you might be just looking at it through that lens. And then if someone is saying, well, now you have blood on your hands, x, y, z, that's like a downstream assumption, bias from something that you may not be thinking at all, which is why I think this is actually interesting in general to observe, which is why I think this is actually interesting in general to subserve, because it's kind of like, when someone says I'm an atheist, someone will say well, therefore, you must believe this, this, this, this, this is true to believe that If you believe this, then all of these series of sub-effects is true, yeah, which I guess isn't true of the world, though. Right.

Jake: 35:32

Yeah, well, I mean, with this whole gender debate, you're completely right that it's an assumption and you're right to assume that because actually the stats don't actually bear that out. When you look at the rates of self-harm, people who actually do that transition surgery are much, much more likely to self-harm afterwards, right. So the logic of that would point to that these people need something else. These people don't need to have their. It's tormenting them and it's troubling and you want the best for these people, but maybe that's not the way. Maybe the way isn't for just a firm. Maybe they need some other help. There's also very strong correlations between childhood abuse and that sort of thing. There's also very strong correlations between childhood abuse and that sort of thing. There's also very strong relate strong correlation between autism and young kids who want to transition right just double tap on that.

Darren: 36:22

How? How did you come to that?

Jake: 36:26

like data point, just just through, like looking at the studies done of of these kids who are, like, identifying as trans or whatever. Many of them are autistic, and many of them have, and especially the adults who do it. Many of them have suffered serious abuse earlier in life, and so these people, a lot of the time, they need real love. They don't need to be put under a knife, they need real love, and so, like, what I mean by real love, though, best way I've ever heard love defined is to will the good of the other, to truly and sincerely will the good of the other. So this is where it's in the debate. In the debate sphere, it can get very nasty and it can get very cutthroat. If you want to have a clean heart about the way you go about these sorts of things, you have to look at it through like, how are you trying to will the good of that person? Are you coming at it through a loving lens or are you coming at it through a lens of? I need to be really sensitive about this, because we do need to be really sensitive about this. This is people who are suffering and people who are having a serious identity crisis, but then the argument is well, what do we do about that? The prescription, yeah, what's the prescription Exactly? Right, their prescription is we just affirm, affirm, affirm.

Jake: 37:48

If a five-year-old kid comes to me and he says and they say daddy, I feel like I'm a girl, five-year-old kid comes to me and he says and they say daddy, I feel like I'm a girl, you say no, billy, you're not a girl, you're a little boy and this is what little boys do and this is what little girls do. Because you're a parent, you have that responsibility, et cetera. Right, if an adult comes to you and they say to you you know, jake, I feel like I'm a girl, I'm not going to just sit there and be like I'm so glad you told me that you're a girl. Right, I'm going to explore that and I'm going to see, try and understand why they feel that way, what it is exactly that's led them to that place in life, and to try and actually will the good of that person and see, like, what the good looks like for them, if that makes sense 100%.

Darren: 38:30

It's about solving, like, the symptoms versus the underlying problem. Yeah, right, and again not saying that these people have a problem. It's just that what? What is the event that has caused this symptom? Sorry, which is like the whole thing with medicine, the whole thing with doctors. Is like if I come to you and I say I'm super fucking sad you don't put me on ssrs, you understand what the problem is and it's precisely, and then it's like, oh okay, maybe at a deeper level there's a hormone imbalance, maybe there's something else, right, but it's like we don't just fix this symptom and move on.

Darren: 39:02

Like I grew up in ireland where, you know, alcoholism is so bad, prescription drugs so bad and so funny, because prescription drugs are so bad that it's not even highlighted, like no one even knows. Because it's so common to like pop painkillers, take x, takes y, it's so common that it's not even raised. I think I'm like the only person who talks about it, to be honest, because it's so common. Like america, like you know, this is like a thing that people know in america, yeah, whereas it's just not a thing in uk and ireland. And the reason I'm saying that is because if you're stressed, you have a drink if you're commiseration, congratulations, every sort of emotion where, the more that I've taken a step out of number one, like that world, and then two, those factors I've just seen it for what it is and I'm like, oh okay, if you are super down and your wife hates you and so on and so forth, maybe there's like four other mini things we can fix versus jumping to conclusions, you know, oh yeah, absolutely.

Jake: 39:59

I actually think that this is a product of the feminization of our culture, if I'm honest, and this is a different sort of wormhole. But when you look at the idea of masculine, feminine and the way that we deal with things generally, men will be more solution-oriented. If I'm really sad and I say to you Darren man, can we go for lunch? I'm really down, this sort of thing happened. We're going to go for lunch and I'm not going to sit there sobbing to you. We're going to have a solutions-based conversation. This happened, man, I know you're a really pragmatic guy, can you help me to solve this issue? And we're going to have a solutions-based conversation where we can really get to the bottom of it. But women don't really tend to operate that that way. In that same sense, women generally tend to operate on like the feeling of it and they want to sit there and cry and they want to feel that emotion, that emotional release, etc. So they're much more sort of like tuned into the actual feeling as opposed to the facts of the matter.

Darren: 40:51

So whenever Elise is upset, I always like she told me to tell her this, which is like do you want support or do you want like to talk about the solution? Smart man, and she will never ask for the solution Exactly. She will find the solution in it over time, but she just wants support, I want to go ahead. Yeah, like let's sit here for 25 minutes. Obviously I'm thinking of the solution, but this is super interesting. Have you ever written Never Split the Difference with Chris Voss? Yeah. I've written it. It talks about, like the behavioral change.

Darren: 41:21

The reason why people who get a triple bypass don't change their lifestyle is because they never taught, they never took the change, took ownership of the decision. So therefore they go back eating McDonald's and they die two years later. It's 90% of people that get a triple bypass never make a lifestyle change because they never took ownership of it. So, looking through that lens, if Elise is upset and I can point out the problem, there's no point me pointing out the problem because you know, with all due respect, she won't make the short term and over the long term she wants to take ownership of her own decision yeah and then she'll make the change, and that's obviously difficult, which took us fucking five years to build up to that point.

Darren: 42:00

In the beginning, when I was younger, I'd be like just work harder, yeah, no, and it doesn't, it just depends on the individual.

Jake: 42:05

Well, it's so interesting when you actually look at these dynamics, because women want, when they have a problem, they want to be heard. They want you to sit there and they want you to listen to them and they want to feel like they've been heard, et cetera. 100% men. We want to have that solutions-based conversation. I'll probably go for a walk with you. I don't have to look at you in the eye if I'm sad or upset and we can look other ways and we can talk about solutions. You know what I mean. So that's just the way that we go about things really differently. We go about things really differently.

Jake: 42:33

Look at the Tate phenomenon. This is such an interesting case study of this right. Why the hell are there millions and millions of young men, tens of millions, probably hundreds of millions of young men around the world, and even guys in their middle age? I've met a lot of guys in their middle age and everything who love Andrew Tate, because they would never admit it, by the way. But why the hell are men so attracted to this message of get your fat ass out of bed, get into the gym, work harder. You are a piece of shit, you will be nothing. Your legacy is going to die Like your ancestors were fighting saber-toothed tigers. And now you're here saying how you don't want to go for a run because you're feeling a bit sad. It's brutal, like the advice that he gives you is so brutal and so between the eyes. Why do men respond so that so well to that?

Jake: 43:20

Women despise that sort of messaging right. Completely different. You look at the messaging that women get from their icons and idols. It looks nothing like that, and women are actually 80% of the consumer market in the world. So when you look at the way that things are advertised, it's generally advertised towards the female right and it's not really advertised in a very male-centric way because women make consumer decisions right. So I just think that the case study of Andrew Tate is just such an interesting one with how men and women are receptive to the information unless, like, I jump in on that as well, because I would say that with his angle, it's the shortest path to solving your problem right.

Darren: 44:03

So, instead of like talking about it and going around the corner and, yeah, maybe do this, maybe do this, he's like just go out, solve the money problem, get fit, because Because at an overarching team, it's basically just take ownership of your life. It's just, bro, it's like Goggins, it's like fucking everyone. Take ownership of your life. The shortest path is like control the money element initially, just so that you can get yourself out of bad situations, get yourself in check, be disciplined, and that's kind of it. At said some random shit from now on in, right, but for the most part, it's that.

Darren: 44:32

He's also been very influential on me, by the way. I had a background in finance, bro. I was going through it, I was like humdrum, just like you know, just going through life, and he just put that light on my ass. It was great and actually, funnily enough, a lot of the things he had said had actually became true. So I actually became true. So, um, I had like huge issues, uh like financially with our family, and uh like they actually all became true, and it was only me in the position that I was in, that I was able to make decisions for everyone based on a financial situation I was in with help of that at another point. It was very interesting. The reason why I say this is because I think men, especially if you just speak the shortest path to the solution, it works like extremely well, and I actually find this very true even in business.

Darren: 45:22

I'll give you an example. I think I said this the other day and I said this to one of my friends as well, who's a fucking killer, and he said A lot of times in their messaging, people talk around the corner. Let me give an example. If I tell you you should start a podcast because you could build authority and you could become an influential figure, it has this sub benefit of you'll be able to take care of your primal needs of money and security, whereas, which we do right now if I tell you you should make content to make more money, you'll respond better and obviously there's a bigger claim, there's a bigger promise. Whatever, providing you can deliver, you'll actually get more results effectively.

Darren: 45:59

So I've said this to someone yesterday who's a huge name bear in mind making a lot of money, but probably should be making a lot more. And I just said look, instead of talking about the problem, just fucking go direct, make it a four, four word sentence and I guarantee you it will transform everything. And in some regard I have some women do who actually respect that more and then also have kind of more bought into it as well. I don't get your thoughts on that yeah, yeah, 100.

Jake: 46:24

I think that the leadership style is also very important as well, because the directness like if you saw the way that, like you'd be well aware of this, but the way that me and vinnie communicate with each other, for example, like a lot of women would look at that and be like gobsmacked by that I'll take him back a little bit intimidated exactly, and I've had women like you speak to your brother like that and I'm like, yeah, like he speaks to me like that too, you know.

Jake: 46:46

But also what I've found I've learned a lot, uh, off vinnie.

Jake: 46:49

A lot of this actually is that is also leadership by example, and leadership of like doing the thing and then having that reflect in your own character so that other people see that you got to do it for yourself, not anybody else, exactly right.

Jake: 47:03

So I'm very like boom, boom, boom, say what needs to be done straight between the eyes, cut throat, whereas Vinny has a very different style about him, where he will do the thing and then he will say, oh man, this is working so well for me. Like I was getting fat last year, for example, and Vinny started like a bulk and he was like, started eating really well and started taking care of himself. He's like, oh man, this is, like you know, going so well for me and I'm doing all this. And I knew, I know his communication style, so I knew what he was doing and that he was without saying to me Jake, you're getting fat, you need to go to the gym. He was saying man, look what I'm doing. Boom, boom, boom. And then I found that to be a really interesting thing as well, because it's not really something that I'd incorporated which is that more longer strategy of doing the thing, embodying it and then reflecting that on other people.

Darren: 47:45

It's not metaphysical though, right, yeah, because it's not the surface level directness, exactly. It's funny because with us and our clients specifically, you'll find us very interesting. So, similar to you, I'm like very direct, right, which has probably been to the detriment of me for some people that want a more of an emotional response and some guys want a most response to it, which I, which was kind of a bit alarming to me, not gonna lie. So in our media company, I pulled myself out of client success for the most part because I found that I wasn't the best communicator of problems. So if I'm speaking to a client and I had an instance yesterday which was like we need to do X, y, z for this to be successful, and it wasn't done and we asked to take ownership and they didn't want us to do it and then it was still not done on their side.

Darren: 48:33

And I woke up this morning and I was like what the fuck is going on? So I said it direct, being like look, here's the cause and effect and you know the problem solution. Here's a problem, here's a solution, here's my recommendations. And then I had to speak to Tom, our client success manager, and I was like, hey, dude, you got to come in and do this on more of an emotional level Because it's the Vinny scenario, right, that's the way he would communicate. It's not my best way to communicate. I'm learning that skill, but it's like until I have that skill ironed out, I can just have someone be better than me at that problem.

Jake: 49:04

Yeah, dude, you and I are very similar, like that, and you've got to realize your shortcomings, like that.

Darren: 49:13

Dude, this costs us money. Yeah, it's because, like I find with someone who's more masculine like myself in terms of like, confrontational or disagreeable is a very good way to put it that even if they agree, they haven't taken ownership of the decision, so their natural response will be to disagree, even though they know that's the right thing to do. It's fucked up, bro. So if I'm like, because we let's? I'll give an example. We do something for their podcast, we recommend something, they don't do it and, as a result, they don't get the result. So we told you what to do, you didn't do it and you didn't get the result. And now when I say, hey, this is the way we should be doing this, instead of them saying, okay, yeah, sure, let's go. They disagree and they fight back. So that's why you need someone who's much more emotive to be able to come in and get that done.

Darren: 49:58

The majority of my guests run content businesses. They've used content as the main element of their business to drive more revenue and build their influence online. We've been doing this through a podcast for many years. We have many guests, clients and even customers use a podcast as their main source of driving more revenue for their business and building their influence online, and we're offering a handful of spots to book in a call with our team to learn how you yes, you can leverage a podcast to generate more revenue for your business and drive your influence online. Many of our clients and customers start from nothing, but each one of them are action takers and they want to learn more about how to build a podcast and a brand right around their business. So if you want to learn more and you're really interested in building a podcast, check out the link down below and book in a free call with our customer success manager and he will guide you into how you can build and generate more revenue from your podcast this year.

Jake: 50:58

Somebody who reads people really well and somebody who's actually able to sort of be like water when it comes to this. They can just float around and sort of be malleable in the way that different because, like, I love it when people yeah, exactly, I love it when people are like me. When they say to me Jake, yes, no, or Jake jake, boom, boom, and I respond really well, I feed off that. But my biggest challenge is then trying to observe the way that people operate and what makes them tick and trying to like be like water and be malleable around that and get the best results out of people and get the best outcomes out of people purely based on the way that they operate, because not everybody likes feedback between the eyes. Do you know what I mean?

Darren: 51:34

that's such a good point, dude, and I think the reason why is because a lot of guys can say the same things I want x, I want to lose body fat, I want to lose weight, I want to make more money but then their execution of it is different. And then when you have, like, the blueprint, or when you have the process, or when, when you can show us in a logical debate, it goes back to the ownership of it. For some fucking reason, they won't do it.

Jake: 52:00

You know, I can imagine this with podcasts as well. I've got a rule now, right, where because obviously I've started a very successful podcast or a very successful like online media company or youtube channel I've had a lot of people that have come to me and said dude, I want to start this YouTube channel, I want to start a podcast, et cetera. And I'm like, first of all, if it was that easy, everyone would be doing it. I don't say that, but I'm like I've got a rule now where I will say to them that's cool, man, I will give you a little bit of advice, you start it and once you've done 10 episodes, come back to me and then I'll help you and I'll invest in you. Or, like, I'll give you my proper time. Because too many times I've had people come to me and say, man, I've got this idea, I want to start a podcast. And I'm like, all right, sweet, let's jump on a call and I'll mentor you through it, and that cost me my time, right. And then they will just have a zero follow through and then, like, a month will go by, I'll see nothing, two months will go by, I'll see nothing. And for me that's bemusing, because if I say I'm going to do something and if I go seek mentorship, I'm going to at least do it because I don't want to lose respect, you know, because my word is important, but so many times I had this happen.

Jake: 53:03

Then I had one friend I'll give him a shout out His name's Darcy and he cooks steaks and he's called the steak lad on um on on Instagram. And I know this guy. He's a savage. We used to do all this training together and he used to do boxing and when he's one of those guys who's obsessive. So I saw that personality trait and I was like he's going to go far with this. So I invested in him, in him a little bit. I gave him some advice and everything, and then um I, and then I sort of tape it off a little bit. He goes ahead. He's done way more episodes than me on my podcast now, killing it, getting invited on other podcasts. But I'm telling you I am fucking brutal with this guy, with my advice to him.

Jake: 53:41

Like I I feel bad for sharing this story, but he won't mind. He had an OnlyFans girl on the podcast, right, and um I, and the stories that he was telling and that she was telling there were not exactly the story that you, as somebody who likes you know a little bit of Aussie banter and eating steak. They're not exactly the stories that you want to be hearing about. It's how some OnlyFans girl is like is like loving herself or whatever. And so I messaged him and I was like messaged him a bunch of her recent photos from like her twitter and everything. I was like what's the logic of having this chick on the podcast so sure? And because he was getting ratioed in his comments and I was like that's really bad what does that?

Jake: 54:20

mean. So he was getting um people commenting on the clips that he was putting out of his hair saying what the fuck has this got to do of people just saying what the fuck has this got to do with steak or what the fuck has this got to do with? Um, you know, like whatever, oh, like, oh, just what I wanted to see on my, on my feed only fans, girl, like whatever. And they were getting heaps of likes. He would respond to it and get no likes. That's when you're getting ratioed by the like to ratio right. So I messaged him and I was like mate, you're getting ratioed on your post here.

Jake: 54:47

I was like what's the logic behind having this chick? And he was like oh, like. I met her the other day and I thought that she had an interesting story and I was like fair enough, but be so careful with your personal brand. Be careful who you align yourself with. Be careful the stories that you're telling, because that reflects on you. I took one click on her profile. I went to her Twitter and I had her photos of her with like jizz on her fucking feet and face and everything, and I was sending him these photos.

Darren: 55:09

I was like now, this is aligned with your, with your brand such a good boy really fucking careful, but I was just so brutal with him and he took it like an absolute champion, yeah, so my observation of that, um is, what I do find is like if you teach someone and they're receptive, you almost like liberate them because it's uh, they've taken ownership. And then they, they see you as the vessel that's taught them the skills and they are like extremely grateful. Whereas what I've found, especially in the agency side of things, is that when we do things for people, and especially if they get success, they don't appreciate it because they haven't felt the pain of posting to zero. And then if you do it and it doesn't succeed, they also like look down on it because they think, well, it should be easy, right, do you get me? Yeah, so they don't understand like all the microcosm skills of like trailers.

Darren: 56:00

I said to vinnie earlier I was like bro, the trailers looking fucking good, and I know that they're holding retention for 90 seconds because the trailers are so good they don't like appreciate it because you haven't given them the skill right. I think that's why coaching is actually a very interesting space, because you can get insane results for people and then push. You, push the right person hard, right, because like that's why I said to you we have like we've had one program for so long and then we have another program because the guys are getting so much results and the guys that are in the second program, we're just mates, right and bro, these people still pay me, but we're still mates because of the fact that, you know, I've met up with them and being like hey, like let's, let's do this, like let's fucking work a bit harder on this, let's get this right, and then they, they feel a good affinity to me because, it's no bullshit.

Darren: 56:41

Yeah, so again it's. It's like the layers of human knowledge, human awareness, yeah, um, it's a very good point, though, man dude, me and vinnie have literally grinded so hard the last three years to get this down.

Jake: 56:54

And we have these rules where we're like we cannot falter on the one percents, because that's what separates us from everybody else, and like we're really harsh with ourselves. Whenever I like mess something up, and it's a small thing, I instantly try and take accountability. I'm like I fucked that up. I'm really sorry, man, like I shouldn't, I shouldn't I, I shouldn't have been so lazy, I shouldn't have been so careless, I shouldn't have been this, that and the other. And he does the same thing. If he ever mess, even if it's something really small, like I'll be like um, for example. Like um, vinnie, you forgot to put this thing in the bio yeah and it's like we have a struggle session about it.

Jake: 57:27

We're like, yeah, why was that thing not in the bio?

Darren: 57:30

I said it to my CEO as well. Last week there was an issue with like this is so fucking dumb, but it's always a dumb issues. It was like the guy put out a clip and then he put out another clip and he thought it was the same clip. So he put the same caption on the shorts and it showed up as like two same captions, but they clips. And I was just like, bro, like this is the difference. Yeah, you know, this is the thing. Right is that we could be getting amazing results for this guy for a year and a half, but if he sees this, he's like we're dummies. Yes, right, looks unprofessional. It looks unprofessional. And the same individual was actually reviewed on my own videos because he's I'm also a client of him and there was like a spelling mistake in my video. Now, I didn't give a fuck about the spelling mistake, I don't give a shit. I couldn't give a shit about it. But he noticed it and he's a client of ours.

Darren: 58:16

He said it to us and it went through two editors and a qa guy and we still had a spelling mistake in it I don't care but because he cares, we have to care right, and it wasn't his contact, it was my contact, yeah, so it's interesting, right, I care a lot about that shift.

Jake: 58:32

There's a spelling mistake, of course Like, because if you think about it, if you put out a clip, say, it gets 10,000 views and there's a spelling mistake, that's 10,000 people who have the potential to look at you as lesser now because they're like, oh well, you can't even spell the word Like you. It is in philosophy and you can't spell a word, right, like, and that always reflects on you, even if I have nothing to do with the making of the clip or whatever. That reflects on me. 100 and it reflects on our brand. So like.

Jake: 59:01

This is why we just take so much care about the one percents, about all of the little things, because that is what makes the difference. Anybody can have a podcast and can have a youtube channel, etc. But if I, if I don't have vinnie there, fine tuning our studio, fine tuning all of the settings, all of the editing, all of these sorts of things to make it the highest production quality possible, and if I'm not there writing really quality scripts and doing all this research, if I lessen that, then we become just another random commentary channel so let's go through that right.

Darren: 59:30

So you're 800 000 subscribers, 880 or something, now 820. Basically, putting out like daily videos. How do you never skip a beat with YouTube? Keep the pacing and everything. Because probably, in theory, one of the fastest growing YouTube channels on YouTube, if you think about it two years to nearly a million subscribers.

Jake: 59:49

I'd say, yeah, it'd be. It'd be up there in the last, in the last few years, if you're in the top 500 fastest growing channels and I've got no idea about the stats, but uh, probably if I was that would be cool yeah, but um probably run a chat gbt, I've done it genuinely, but it's like two years to get to that point and the level of use that you get and everything right.

Darren: 1:00:09

So let's go through the workflow right. Daily, daily uploads, which is already a fucking headache. So this guy's under a lot of pressure for editing a lot news coming in of politics and debates. What's the workflow?

Jake: 1:00:22

so generally, what will happen is that I will try and be on top of the news as much as possible and everything that's going on. I'll be on twitter constantly looking at what stories are breaking, what people are interested in, etc. Et cetera. And then I'll be on YouTube just looking through debates, because if there's not a debate to cover, then I have to do a political story like a story that's happening, and just go through the story and try and add as much value as possible, because if it's just me there talking and giving my like two cents worth, that will not really go so well. But if I've got stats and figures and then referring to another expert, playing a clip from another expert more stats, more figures, different angle, another expert, boom, boom, boom, super dynamic video then that makes for valuable political commentary. And then with the debates, I can cover it. Wherever debates are relevant, or even if they're not so relevant, I can cover them in the way that I can break down body language and I can break down persu language and I can break down persuasion and I can teach people how they can incorporate these sort of techniques into their own lives and into their own conversations, et cetera. So I've got to look at it from a really broad range of skills. So I spent a lot of my time doing basically nothing right, watching videos, right, all in the metaphysical right.

Jake: 1:01:31

This is all happening in the abstract, whereas vinny is very practical, so he'll be there. He's just learned. He has this special ability to be able to learn things and master them really quickly, like this almost genius ability to do that. Recently he had to learn photoshop because we couldn't rely on thumbnail people anymore. I was like vinny, you're gonna have to get in the trenches and learn how to do this more. He authored. I didn't say that, but he said he's gonna learn how to do it. Two days later we've got like beautiful thumbnails happening right.

Jake: 1:01:59

So that's his skill practical, pragmatic, learns photoshop, learns these things, masters, editing, masters um, the uh, the, the clips, and has a guy working under him doing that, managing everything, all the practical stuff, all the stuff that actually happens in reality. He does, whereas I'm always in the clouds the abstract, the metaphysical, thinking about ideas and debates and watching things, et cetera. So normally in the morning I'll be just watching, see what's happening and then hopefully by midday or so I'll have a really good idea of what my script is going to be for that day, what I'm going to be covering, et cetera, and then I'll write a pretty detailed script and then by like 3 pm I like to have filmed and have done the script and I like to be and then Vinny's sort of doing the editing of it. And you know, by 5 or 6 pm, that's when I these days will just go to the gym, do my workout, do a bit of recovery and everything, and then bring my computer and maybe do a bit of work there. That's the flow at the moment.

Darren: 1:03:02

So, apart from the research, what else do you do for the media company Like how do you bring this to life? Is it just the videos that you're focused on every day, do you? How do you bring this to life? Is it just the videos that you're focused on every day? Can?

Jake: 1:03:13

you show me the laser Because that's the thing I need, a mover, right? Well, the thing that I've got to do is I've got to become as proficient as possible with debate. Yeah.

Jake: 1:03:20

Because that's the sort of stuff that is really really attractive to people is when you can actually not only just talk about it in a video, but then ideas and people really enjoy watching those debates and also I host a lot of debates as well, so I'll get different people from around and I'll host them, but the idea is eventually to probably move to America for a few years and to have a studio similar to like Valuetainment what they do have a daily show, news show, lots of live viewers similar to Tim Pool and these sorts of guys, and then to have different factions of the media company and have the people around me so there's different researchers and everything so that I can spend more time just actually broadcasting rather than just writing scripts and listening to videos, and I can have people relaying information to me and that I would have spent these years researching and developing and sharpening my skills to the point where I don't need to do all that research anymore.

Jake: 1:04:09

I've got a really good foundation of knowledge. I can really cover a broad range of topics and I can just sort of keep up with the news and just go for it that's similar to podcasting, right, like when I was younger, I would spend almost three days preparing for a podcast.

Darren: 1:04:23

so I'd be like looking at your stuff and just understanding, like how you think. And then how do I write an outline for that and sub questions, dude, now I can do it in like an hour, like being realistic, because the skill of listening is what you first acquire, and then it's the skill of the niche how do we tailor it to what you're doing? And then it's like how do we stay on the ball and then just memorize everything? Right, just for the most part it becomes intuitive. So there's like there's the years that no one sees that you've built that skill to be able to prepare in like an hour.

Jake: 1:04:55

That's it, man. People think that success is like an overnight thing and the acquisition of skills is an overnight thing. Oh what, you just sit in front of a camera and you just talk. Oh, the easiest job ever. But there's so much that goes into it, so much.

Darren: 1:05:09

And it was Rick Rubin's podcast with Rory sutherland. He was talking about like preparation basically, and you know, we from school we think that preparation is like sit down, write the script, learn the script, and so on. But preparation could be washing the dishes, sleeping, and then, as you're sleeping, like the subconscious is thinking about the story arc of what you're talking about. Waking up, going to the gym, driving back, being in traffic is preparation, and you might not even be thinking about it consciously but subconsciously. And then you go in and you're prepared, yep, and like that's how he wrote a lot of his music. That's why he always washes his dishes every day, because when he's writing his dishes, he's writing his dishes, he's thinking of the notes and it's such an interesting observation. It's actually really beautiful to think about, right?

Jake: 1:05:54

Yeah.

Darren: 1:05:54

Because that was a big unlock for me and I listened to that about a year ago which was I don't need to be looking at the same fucking A questions over and over again. I need to understand the dynamic and even like this morning, I was like walking down this morning and I was like walking dog this morning. I was like, okay, how do I want this conversation to go? How do I make this flow? What do I believe? How does that make sense?

Jake: 1:06:18

and then it's like I'm kind of, for the most part, always ready tell you what's interesting as well about podcasting, and this is something that, like you're you're good at with podcasting is not trying to control the narrative too much. You want to be able to really listen and then to be able to see where it takes you. You know, like you probably wouldn't have expected that, I would have blasted away straight away with deep philosophical ideas, and that's when you've ever like all right, cool, like where's this going, where can I take this, and not be like, well, you know, my, my next question was this so we have to get into this, you know, say I think that's a lot.

Darren: 1:06:47

Right, that takes years to be like okay, this makes sense through this lens, right, does that make sense Even for videos? And one of the things that became very apparent to me with that was I had a podcast with Paul Daly. You know Paul Daly no, I get on really well with him, a Christian guy. He was the CEO of Imangaji.

Darren: 1:07:04

I know Paul very well and he was on the podcast again and he kind of like ripped down like the Christianity root of the conversation and then about an hour and a half of conversation he was like do you want me to stop talking about this? And I was like I want you to talk about things that you really value. And the fact that you value this, even though I didn't think about it, not going to lie before the conversation means that we'll have a very good conversation, right? I think I said to Vinny yesterday it yesterday was like what's the thing that you are itching to talk about? But no one ever asks you, right, because I do so many podcasts, dude, even myself. So going as a question, it's a brilliant question like yeah what lights you up that you value a lot?

Jake: 1:07:44

have you noticed that when you podcast with people, you can see that moment where that like little flick switches? That little switch flicks in a way where you can see that it's gone from sort of like a you know podcast conversation to almost like you forget the cameras around. They're like okay, this person's in their zone, this person is cooking yeah, it's a good, it's a good point.

Darren: 1:08:00

It's like what are they? What are the same seven questions are always being asked and how do I get out of that frame as fast as possible? So how do we get into like no man, no man's land, where it's just like we're just flowing and we're just conversing, we're just talking? It's still hitting an overarching theme, because I kind of I try to start thematic and then I go into titles and then I will go into topics and they always have to hit the topic and title and then interior thumbnails can be done before the podcast.

Darren: 1:08:26

Yeah, in theory, yeah, but then because the conversation is fluid and not seven fucking minutes it has to all, not all, it doesn't have to, but in theory will all come back up. So I think, working with like so many people they always worry about this because they're like, oh, it's kind of off topic and I'm like, no, overall we'll go back up. You know, you'll watch alex ramosian and chris williamson podcast and the title will be like how to work harder and the guy goes into his dad and he goes into thousands of verticals because the the gold is, as you said, it's the why, why, why, why. And then you're only scratching the surface of the gold. And that's where I got out of studios was, because we had 90 minutes or an hour and then you only got into conversation 40 minutes in, so I had to get out of it, um, and then I started bringing my stuff with me, which it's a good idea to do that, but you can't do multiple cities.

Jake: 1:09:19

Yeah.

Darren: 1:09:19

You know you can't do multiple cities.

Jake: 1:09:21

It's hard lugging all that luggage around, you know.

Darren: 1:09:23

It's just a shit show. And then, like today, I told you, like you know, the camera like doesn't work.

Jake: 1:09:33

It's a brand work to brand new camera. I'm like what the fuck is happening, bro, if I didn't have, if I didn't have vinny, I'd be absolutely screwed. That sort of stuff happens and I'm like vinny, nerd, I need nerd help right now.

Darren: 1:09:38

Fix the fix the technical thing, yeah, yeah yeah, but it's a good point though, right, because that's why I you need. You need good people in your corner who compliment you at all times. Right, compliment your skills. I don't mean like bringing you up, I mean like the stuff that you're shit at, whereas I think I think my skill is that I'm kind of like okay at a bunch of shit, like I'm happy to lug my stuff to dubai, set it up, have the camera set up, have the video set up it's probably 70 there, uh whereas I shouldn't be doing that, right, um, and it's not that I'm too proud to do it, it's just sometimes I'm like, oh, fuck it, I'll just figure it out.

Jake: 1:10:11

Yeah, yeah, I get that. There's a lot of different logistics involved and we've had to take our stuff around a fair bit. And it is a pain, but I admire you for doing that, bro.

Darren: 1:10:20

Tell me about why you think your channel grew Well.

Jake: 1:10:26

first of all, the main reason was because I was really into this sort of stuff before. I'm actually really into this stuff. It actually really fills my cup.

Darren: 1:10:35

That's an important point. Yeah, right, that most people create content, but things they don't give a shit about. Yeah, yeah, I call it the 100 reps, right, you have to do 100 videos of the same topic.

Jake: 1:10:44

Yeah, To be able to do it forever. Exactly, if I was waking up every morning and I had nothing to do and I had no job and I was a crypto billionaire, I would wake up every morning and I would see what was happening in the news and I would watch all of the debates and I would critically analyze them in my head. That's what I would do, because I love doing that. Awesome. So now I do that anyway, and then I do that for work. So when I started this, I'll take you back, man, because when I started the channel, I was going through a really, really tough time in my life. So I started the channel when I was 27, right, and I'd just gone. I was a personal trainer for a few years and I didn't mind personal training. It was like you had a bit of autonomy and everything, but I couldn't quite clock how to make this work for me in my sleep. You know and a lot of guys around Bali here are quite good at that they can sort of, you know, they've put it online and they do well with their training. I hadn't got to that stage. So it was okay. It gave me some autonomy. I didn't have to answer to a boss, but it was. There wasn't very good money in it at that stage and so eventually I left that because I got an opportunity to work corporate, to go and do recruitment and by this stage I'd been doing podcasting for five years. I'd had the FightFit podcast, which was like all that kickboxing and boxing et cetera. I'd done about 60 episodes of that, I think, and that was. I loved that, but I never took it anywhere because we had a GoPro that was set up down here looking at our crotch and it was just a terrible, terrible setup. But that was a really enjoyable podcast and I really liked that. And then I started another podcast called Hello Game Day, which is about Australian football, and I had better set up.

Jake: 1:12:18

This time. I had a studio and we had some editors and we had me and my friend and the editors were doing it for free because, like they were young university students and I managed to wrangle this all together. I had a friend who had an office who let us use one of the little tiny rooms in the office to for a studio space and we set everything up and we used to interview AFL football players and we were like, oh wow, you know, afl football players. This is great, and me and Vinny were looking at back on this the other day actually and we were laughing our heads off about the terrible production quality, about the terrible sound quality, about the terrible thumbnails and all these sorts of things, because I was just so green to it all. So I did that for a while and then eventually that sort of petered out and then I started something called Counterculture News because I started to get more involved in politics during the Rona right. So I started Counterculture News and then I was doing all this stuff on Instagram, working really hard, and I was doing a few sort of like videos about it here and there.

Jake: 1:13:11

I was going to protests. Vinny would come with me to these protests and we would go and interview climate change activists and debate them and everything, and that was okay but never went anywhere. And then I got picked up from there with this guy, andy, who did this thing called the Global Freedom Rally at that time, where he was interviewing Zuby amongst other people back during that time about all the restrictions and mandates and everything and basically rallying people together to fight back against this. And he saw my counterculture news channel and he got me on on board and we started this joint venture where we'd do these interviews. That was the biggest thing I'd ever done. I was like, wow, you know I'm here interviewing all these doctors and scientists and these people, and. But that also petered out because those guys had their own things going on.

Jake: 1:13:54

So then, you know, by this stage I was pretty demoralized because, like, I'd felt like I'd slowly progressed but I was like, maybe I'm just not really so good at this. So then I went into personal training and just focused on that for a little while. And then the corporate job came about. And this is when I knew I was really demoralized because I really wanted to do podcasting and media and journalism of some sort, but I felt like I just couldn't ever really get it off the ground, right. So, um, I went into the corporate world and I did it for six months and I hated every second of it. I despised it, right. So then, eventually, um, I had a little bit of a tiff with my boss one day and then I quit the job.

Jake: 1:14:35

I'm 27 years old and I'm like mom, I'm unemployed. I haven't lived at home since I was 15, by the way, and I was like you know, I'm unemployed. Um, can I come back and live with you for a while and see what? See what I do? I guess. And she was like, yeah, cool, my mom's great. She just was like, yep, come home, do what you need to do. So by this stage I'm like holy shit, like I'm 27 years old, I am everything I feared that I would be. I'm a total loser, living in my mom's spare room with no job and no direction whatsoever, no idea what I wanted to do. So I was 27 and it was just devastating and I was.

Jake: 1:15:14

I was like lashing out, like I was like emotional and angry and like lashing at it, like the people around me who love me, because I just felt like such a loser and being who I am, which is like innovative and like entrepreneurial and driven and ambitious, it's like everything I'd feared in my life was was happening before my eyes, you know, and a lot of my friends around me were all kicking goals and starting companies and progressing in their careers and I was living with my mom.

Jake: 1:15:40

So, anyways, that was a really tough time for me. So I actually started this YouTube channel, right, and it was Rattlesnake TV. Vinny bless him, even though he'd never made a cent off me and he'd worked for all these hundreds of hours doing my random project, he was like, yeah, man cool, we'll, um, we'll jump in and we'll do these rattlesnake tv videos, whatever the hell that means, um. And so we did a few videos in his old house. They got like no views whatsoever.

Jake: 1:16:06

And then I was living in the sunny coast, he was in brisbane, so I started making the videos by myself for a little while and, um, one day I got really sick when I was at my mom's place. I was almost like I was just like worn down and I got really sick. And, um, my mom was like you know, you should go to the hospital, you look really sick. And I was like no, I'm good, I'm good Whatever. Next day she comes in and I can barely move, can barely walk Right, I'm just flattened, paralyzed. I couldn't stand up anything. And she's like no, you're going to the hospital. And I was like mom, I'm not going to the freaking hospital, I'm just going to flu. So anyway, she takes forces me to go to the hospital. It turns out I've got meningitis, which is something that can kill you, right? And um, luckily they picked it up really early. So I was in the hospital for like three or four days, totally just rock bottom. It's like sick in the hospital, no job, feel like a loser, nearly died from this meningitis bullshit.

Jake: 1:16:58

But months before I'd organized a for me and my brothers to go to Jordan Peterson. He was coming to Brisbane to come and do a speech. So we went along. I'm in the car with my older brother and I'm saying to him dude, I'm confiding in him. Oh man, things are so bad at the moment, I just want to have some direction. And he turns around to me and he goes mate, I bet Jordan Peterson's going to say something to you tonight. That changes your life forever. And I was like, oh yeah, whatever, mate dressed up, we sit down for this jordan peterson show and every time he does a different show.

Jake: 1:17:35

He isolates a different rule from one of his books and he speaks about it right. So he gets out brief preamble and then he goes. The rule he's going to speak about is think about who you could be and aim single-mindedly at that and just boom the next. For the next few hours he just spoke directly to my soul about, about thinking about who you could be and aiming single-mindedly at that. So I left that with a new, invigorated sort of ambition to do youtube, because I've got this thing, um, this little rattlesnake tv channel. It's got about you know, 60 subscribers at the moment. If, if I really push hard, then maybe in a year I could have like 2000 subscribers and I could be monetized. I could be making a little bit of money off this. So I started pushing.

Jake: 1:18:22

Anyways, a week later I made this Russell Brand video right, and it was like Russell Brand with these MSNBC anchors and he just took them to school and I broke it down about how he was using body language and using persuasive techniques and everything. Anyways, I went to bed. I woke up in the morning I looked at the video and it had 6,000 views and I almost lost my mind. Like I ran into my mom's room like an excited kid and I was like mom. 6,000 views. 6,000 people watched my video, can you believe it? And by this stage I had 90 subscribers. I was like mom 6,000 views, 6,000 people watched my video, can you believe it? And by this stage I had 90 subscribers. I was like I got 30 people subscribed to my channel. I've got 90 subscribers Like I was over the moon, right. But then something happened. Over the next few days it literally went like to the moon, this video and within a week it had 1.4 million subscribers, 1.4 million views, right. And I got up to 10,000 subscribers and I monetized my channel and from then on there has not been a single step back. It's just been going into it full on.

Jake: 1:19:22

But the great thing about it you asked before about what was different about my channel is that I have this massive repository of knowledge about debates and about interactions that have had that have been had in the past, because I'm really obsessed with this stuff. So all these people were doing these reaction videos etc. But like they didn't know that candace owens spoke at this um, this summit three years ago, where she debated against ti, right, and then she took ti to school on stage. Nobody had reacted to that, so I took that. I got all the best moments from it and I made a video about that, so that repository was really good. But then the problem with that is that eventually that repository dried up and then I had to do constantly new stuff. There's no old videos I can go back into. I've got to be doing breaking news but you have.

Darren: 1:20:08

so this is that's a fucking amazing story, by the way, and it and it's so sick because, like I often say, you just need one person to believe in you for your entire life to change, like you just need one person bro.

Darren: 1:20:18

And I try to be that person for a lot of younger people, like when they've contacted me and they're 15, and they're 16 and they've watched my videos for two or three years, I like send them a voice note. I'm like, here's what you do next, because you just need that one person, because I'd get in those fucking moments, dude. But specifically on your fifth channel I always say this, which is those four channels that were like you know nothing to you. They built so much skill, yes, and ability to look at, like that rattlesnake tv positioning, like. So I'll give an example. When you told me about Russell Brand, I would say, oh yes, you were leveraging authority through a storytelling technique so that video would pop right and you knew this, like somewhere deep down back here, and that's where you made it yeah, yeah right, you're 100, right because you weren't like.

Darren: 1:21:06

This is why someone like hamza can create like a seventh fucking channel which he does, and he has no photo on the YouTube channel, no thumbnail, no title. The title will say like day one and the video will get 40,000 views. Yeah.

Darren: 1:21:20

And it's, yes, he has an audience whatever, but in theory it's because he knows the counter trend to titles and thumbnails and scripting and everything he understands like that at a deeper level. And then he shows up in a fucking kickboxing gym in Bali and then the video gets 40,000 views. Yeah Right, because he's learned all these subconscious skills. And when I speak to Hamza, he doesn't even recognize that about himself. He doesn't get, he doesn't know that he knows so much. And we've had these conversations.

Jake: 1:21:49

I'm like I don watch and we've had these conversations. I'm like I don't think you understand how much you know about videos and he's like ever I don't, I just create youtube videos. Yeah, yeah, but that's him.

Darren: 1:22:01

Yeah, I think that's like kind of him being humble, but like he, I think he's subconsciously I think that's what you're pointing out like subconsciously he would know, but it's like it's just a language that he speaks, you know, but it's like if you looked at the bell curve and you know, like those memes of guys on the bell curve, it's like make good videos in the bottom, make good videos on top, and then in the beginning, in the middle, and it's like thumbnail, test all of the other stuff, yeah, and it's like you have to go through that arc of being shit and in the middle to realize that like, yes, you need the skill of this for your content, for your business, for whatever it is.

Darren: 1:22:32

Does that make sense? 100? It's kind of like how we talked about the scripting of videos. Like, like, I'll often just do nothing for a podcast in terms of I'll know who the fucking person is, I know that I'm gonna take in, but I won't have anything properly scripted the best way to do it sometimes, because I've just spent five fucking years recording, right, it's.

Darren: 1:22:49

It's such a. It's like, it's like the answer without the answer. It's like what's the action item here? It's like nothing. It's like still do what you're doing, go through your thousand shit reps, improve, of course, but there is that point right, and you know um, you would know how to beast, you know, dav.

Jake: 1:23:11

Rallis. I mean, I'm really not anything that's not in the political sphere, I'm really not that familiar with he was really big in like pick up culture and stuff like dating, dating channels and all of his channels have got like a million subscribers and so on and so forth.

Darren: 1:23:23

And he started a new podcast and the podcast blew up and so on, and the question that was asked to was like how does this, how does it all work? Similar to you and it's like because most people are consistently shit for seven years, but they have to make those changes inside every single video for you to become the masterpiece at the end. Yeah, right, so 100, you can be shit forever. But it sounds like to me that you were making those finite one percent changes.

Jake: 1:23:50

Yes, and then over time then in the cruise and just, yeah, and just learning, learning about it as I went, like you have to learn about camera presence and you have to learn about how to speak to people and interview and how to be persuasive and how to use proper language and how to actually get a better grasp of the english language so that, um, you can at least sound like an authority and and all these sorts of things. And then, in terms of production quality, you have to learn all about production quality and you have to see what other people are doing, do all of the different market research and see why other people are successful, et cetera. So there's just thousands and thousands and thousands of hours that go into this. And I look back on it now and I'm like, yeah, those podcasts were all shit, but that was just me training, training, training, training, training to eventually get to the place where I can do something. That's special public training.

Darren: 1:24:38

So, uh, you know, I've built businesses since I was super young and I've launched stuff and I've made money and I blew shit up. And a lot of times I would blow stuff up in private and have a company and I'd make money and then I just fucking blow it, um, and I didn't give a shit. A podcast was my only thing that was publicly embarrassing because it was day one. Hey, look at this, look at me, let's try to get attention, but this is shit. And then it's always those sequences of public failure that you have to do and you only have two options you just keep going and get better or you just quit, and and 99% of people just quit, yes, you're absolutely spot on about that, but you've just publicly failed.

Jake: 1:25:17

You ever seen that meme? You ever seen that meme where they're digging for gold and then you see the gold right there and then it's like they quit just before that they hit that gold? Because I never would have suspected that.

Jake: 1:25:27

When I was living at my mom's place, I thought that I was a podcast failure, right. I tried this a bunch of times. I'd had all these football players and I'd had all of these um, you know, really sort of I like sort of well-known martial artists around Melbourne and everything, but it just never really popped off. So I was like I must be the problem. So I was ready to throw it away. Right, I was going into the corporate world and ready to sell my soul and throw it away for something that I knew that I would hate. I was so close man, I was so close to just having that one thing that motivated me enough to eventually send me into a place where I could earn a little bit of money, enough to live on a fucking beach in cambodia if I needed to, and then go well, this is what.

Darren: 1:26:05

So this is why I think, uh, coaching is super interesting because it's all about what's success for you, like, what actually? What to win? Right, for some people, a win is just opening up YouTube. For some people, a win is the first thousand views or 6,000 views, because a win shouldn't be what results Chris Williamson is getting or the best debater right, that's not what a win is. Sometimes, a win is people just paying, getting started playing a program whatever, but it's understanding what the win. Is people just paying getting started playing a program whatever, but it's understanding what the win is. And I try to always bring that back to the people that we work with, which is, like, don't be looking at me for what a win is, just because I have a big team and we've had five fucking years doing it and my goals are very different than a lot of other people's goals. If your win is getting a client or getting a customer or getting a thousand views, like stop and acknowledge it, and we try to do that a lot, because a lot of guys that we will work with slightly off topic like, but a lot of like, so my goal with the stuff that we have is mainly on their offer.

Darren: 1:27:03

Now I'm basically out of everything else. I'm out of the podcast production. I'm out of the content advisory stuff. I'm out of the production advisory stuff too. I'm out of all of it because it's not where I'm best positioned. If I'm going to show up, I have to help you with your offer. So, as a result of that, people kind of feel a little bit inferior because they're like, oh, like, we just got like three clients just cut this month and I'm like, bro, most people will never, ever, ever, ever get that. So you have to slow down and realize that that's a monumental win for you and also in the context of the entire market, because most guys will never get to that point. Yeah, and I think I've really tried to focus in on that with people which is just like, let's look at what success looks like. You know, and it's an interesting observation. What I wanted to say to you as well was have you ever considered public speaking coaching?

Jake: 1:27:48

public speaking coaching. Yeah, yeah like someone to look at your public speaking no, this is why I need to speak to you more, because you've got, you've got all the ideas and I'm floating, I'm floating in the abyss not even, not even me, bro.

Darren: 1:28:02

let me take a step back. So, oh, this is such a good, this is such a good conversation. So everyone saw that, uh, you know, chris williamson like transformed, basically overnight. He was getting public speaking coaching back in 2021, 2022, and I was. I was like ha gay, you don't need that. And then, obviously, his like results were like vroom as a result. Now, was it because of that? It's one of the billion variables, but what I noticed was back to David Morales, which is you can be consistently shit.

Darren: 1:28:28

For seven years, I wasn't really getting better at speaking and not necessarily speaking, I mean persuasively speaking and about like, how to like change someone's beliefs and win someone's to your way of thinking, which wasn't doing it. So, one of my good friends, michael campion he's a, he's a very big public speaking coach for executives and like fortune 100 companies and this guy like english, very like uh proper, I guess the term very well put together. He's lived in hong kong for many years and I knew he was doing this and I spoke to him and I was like bro, like I fucking. I know that there's a problem here, but I can't see it. It's the scariest part, right, the problem that you can't see. Get on a call with him and I'm like I'm like dude, what am I going to do? What do I need and what do I need? What was like you are extremely high in competency, so when you speak on stage you have a high competency radar, so they'd say out of 10 I know my stuff out of 10, but you're very low on warmth but people need to warm to you to buy from you. He was like. He was like it's and it's not about like people buy from people they trust people buy from people. They like it's just like this, like human nature thing. And he broke it all down for me and he was like if you smile more, if you involve the crowd more, if you use more rhetoricals, if you lighten their resistance with laughter and smiling, and that It'll bring their walls down. It brings their walls down. It brings their walls down. And he was like that was the first conversation where I went and I was like I was like what else? And then we went through this huge process for the past like three, four months and he's a gather is this? And there's the way you speak about that and there's the way he rolled your tongue on xyz and it was all baked in on, like, how do we actually get people to listen to what we want to listen to? At the very least, just listen to what we want to listen to? At the very least, just listen to what we want to do? And super, super interesting Since then, I do a lot of speaking from stage and that logic is called what's it called?

Darren: 1:30:24

There's a term for it where you sell from stage. We actually do it and I would say in 2025, most people don't do it anymore, but we're able to. I'm able to go to an event, see seven right speakers, realize that most of them are fucking shit, because people don't inherently learn how to speak. It's very tough skill to learn. I can get on stage, talk specifically to you amongst 500 other people, make me make myself feel like I'm connected with 500 people, and then these people literally buy from me immediately.

Darren: 1:30:52

It's happened. It's literally happened and I I've said to him I was like bro, like what the fuck has happened? He's like, yeah, well done, you're finally actually speaking to people, people actually like you. That's so interesting. So, again, it's the metaphysical layer of the world that's happening, and I've said this to other people who were like high level entrepreneurs and stuff. He's super impressive dude and he's actually coming to our mastermind as well next year. Next month he's going to be in Bali for it, but it's because he was doing it for so many years. He's a professional football player and everything and he was just very into that world, just like you're into your world. And very interesting observation.

Jake: 1:31:30

Yeah, that's so interesting. I mean it's a very, very good skill to have. I see some of the best public speakers, guys like Konstantin Kissin, for example, a very good public speaker Every time he does speeches at ARC. I was at the ARC conference Jordan Peterson's conference a few months ago and this guy was just really Douglas Murray as well yeah, compelling speaker. But they always are funny as well and relatable. Because if you go up there and you're just sort of spitting facts, you might be spitting bars, you might be saying truth and everything, but if you're not a little bit funny and a little bit warm and smiling and speaking directly to people as well because if you speak to the audience it can be overwhelming, but if you isolate people in the audience, then that's a much better thing to do.

Darren: 1:32:10

If you think back at it, right, look at the and look at, look at people who've moved nations historically. They all spoke because there was no fucking tweeding, right. They all spoke and they were able to move empires. And then you have politicians who shouldn't have been elected or were elected, but they were good speakers. You look at something like barack obama right, fuck knows what he did. Clinton has right, but they just spoke immediately.

Darren: 1:32:36

Well, because it's like there's such a primal thing to connect with someone and, at the very least, if you look at it through that lens, okay. And then if you look at through the lens of, like people that are trying to again, you know Douglas Murray and so on, so forth, I look at like Alex Ramos in the business space. He'll do one of two things in a video. He'll do this. He'll say here's how to grow your business from someone who sold a company for 42 million and has a portfolio company that makes 250 million a year. That's like social proofing, okay. But then the other thing you'll do on stage is he'll start a conversation being like here's how to grow your sales team, and he'll stop and be like who here has struggled to close a sale before? And no one will move their hands because they're all super scared and you're like oh, it's just me who should have sales done, and then everyone laughs. So it's self-deprecating and also bringing people down, bringing yourself down and then them loosing their juices effectively and that's it.

Darren: 1:33:30

There's literally nobody else involved apart from that, and that immediately gets people to be like I like this guy, yeah, yeah and I listen to him.

Jake: 1:33:39

Yeah, I do, I implement that all the time, self-deprecating humor on my channel all the time, which is really because you know if you're speaking about these sorts of things, you don't want to feel like you're speaking down to people yeah people hate being spoken down to.

Jake: 1:33:52

But if you I'll always call myself like, I'll be like, like, oh, I'm so stupid, I'm like this and that, not because I think I'm stupid, but because self-deprecating humor can be like oh, this guy doesn't take himself too seriously and we're having a conversation, two human beings trying to sort out ideas and trying to sort of bounce off each other. Because that's kind of what happens when you have a parasocial relationship with somebody, which means that you have a relationship with somebody that's not in person, but it's, it's, it's on online. Basically, we have a Paris, that parasocial relationship with somebody. You still want to feel the authenticity right and you still want to feel as though that person is relatable. And if you met them in person, you'd be able to have a beer with them and you kind of get um more of a personable vibe from them.

Jake: 1:34:31

And this is why I was saying to you before when we were having a coffee is that like the travel vloggers who say they have this really fake persona all the time? It's like hey, welcome back to my travel channel. I can never get down with that, because I'm like you don't speak like that, just be yourself. I'm sure there's nothing wrong with what yourself is.

Darren: 1:34:51

It's insecurity though.

Jake: 1:34:52

Yeah.

Darren: 1:34:52

They're not like they haven't done the internal work, I haven't gone through that arc, right, but I think it's the for you know, looking at you in particular, it's looking, you know, again, you either consciously or unconsciously, are doing these things. So you say, like here are my christian beliefs. From someone that was an atheist, it's like, hey, dude, like I was in that position, I thought the world was going to like burn alive. Here's what I've learned. That's the most important part, and I would do that as well in terms of like, here's what we do.

Darren: 1:35:18

From someone who used to record into the void for fucking two years straight. Here's what I know, what it feels like to look at a Stripe account for multiple years and it has no money, right. So, and I think that's why it's also really important to not try to put yourself above people, right and I know people use that as like a marketing strategy too which is like it's like the mystical God, it's like I'm up here, therefore, listen to me. It's kind of like on the pedestal vibe. It works, but I feel like it's not what I want to be.

Jake: 1:35:47

Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, a hundred percent. And I never relate to those guys, the ones that are like selling they've got this amazing life. I'm like dude, just be real. I get it, you've had some success and everything, but you're also a human being and we also have the same sort of like. We probably have a lot of the same sort of issues and securities and hope, biology yeah, hope of heaven, fears of hell, all of these sorts of things going on. The same existential dramas connect on a human level. I get it, you've got a lot of money and everything. But if you can connect with me on that human level, I'm so much more likely to actually form that sort of parasocial relationship where I see you as I humanize you as opposed to see you as something that's just on screen.

Jake: 1:36:37

That's what rogan did. But in terms of the like, the um, what we were saying before, there's a really good saying. I think it was gk chesterton or one of these guys. It's a christian saying um, and it goes there, but for the grace of god, go I. So every time you look at somebody and they're maybe, you know, not as a, not, not, not achieving as much or whatever, it's like there, but for the grace of god, go. I said like that was me. You know that couldn't be me. That was me. That essentially is me, besides a few different graces that I've, that I've had in my life. So I do like to look at pretty much everybody in that sort of same same vein. You know, yeah, people are looking up at me for advice or if they're looking for me for for um, you know, knowledge, et cetera. You know that is me just a few years ago.

Darren: 1:37:20

So do you have any final advice for people that are trying to grow their YouTube channel?

Jake: 1:37:25

Um, never do the money dance. So me and my, me and Vinny, we have this um, this, saying that we never do the money dance, which is basically when good things happen to you and when you achieve certain feats, for example, when you get to 100,000 subscribers and you've had a few videos that have gone really well and you get a lot of positive recognition. Pretty much. Just take that with a grain of salt, all of the positive recognition that you get, all of this adulation and everything. It can just go in the click of her fingers and they're onto the next guy. So never, ever, think that you're at the top of the hill and start doing the money dance and thinking that everything that you touch is now going to turn to gold because you're good at something. There's a reason why you've gotten to the place where you are. There's a reason why you've gotten your first thousand subscribers, your first 10,000 subscribers. There's a reason why people are leaving nice comments in your comment section, and that's because whatever you're doing is working. So look at that zone in on that, realize what it is that you're good at, what your skills are, and then don't go and do the money dance and think that now I've made it. Everything I do is going to turn to gold.

Jake: 1:38:30

We had a really good moment like this when we were in Japan. Right, we were making this political commentary and this debate content and we do half serious, half satirical. We'll take the piss a lot of the time. So it's funny, political, relatable, personable, fun to listen to, but you also get a lot of value. You're going to get stats and figures and you'll learn something. You're going to have a laugh and that's what it is. We're going a community here. So me and v were like dude, awesome, got all these views coming in. These people love what we're doing.

Jake: 1:39:00

All right, we're gonna now go to um, the south of japan, and we're gonna do little documentary films about um, what was that thing called the um, the uh, the thing underwater in japan? Remember that? Oh, that's right, we would. That was a little bit more relatable. We were talking to girls on the street in different countries being like what do you, what do you find attractive in a man? A little bit more relatable.

Jake: 1:39:22

But then we're like we're going to do a documentary series now about these underwater structures in japan. We're going to go scuba diving and we're going to go and look at these underwater structures, these megaliths in japan and do this travel video. It's going to cost us thousands of dollars, but we're going to do that, and then maybe we'll go to the pyramids or something after that and we started making these travel videos and they would really flop hard right. We didn't do those videos eventually, but we were doing these various different travel videos where we'd go. We were in South Korea and we went to the DMZ, to the demilitarized zone, and we were talking to the South Koreans about what they think about North Koreans and it's interesting, it's good for our portfolio, but people didn't really care about it and we were thinking to ourselves but we're getting all these views on our other content, why are we getting 200 views on? This content.

Jake: 1:40:08

But it was because that's not what people were there to see us about. And if we built our profile to the point where everything we touch turned to gold, which some people can do tate, for example if he went and did that it would just blow up, right? But we're not that guy yet, right? We're still. People still want to see the videos that we're covering in terms of politics and they want to have that really positive viewer viewing experience where they'll click on our video and they know there's going to be a coming up and then I'm going to introduce the video and then we're going to watch some clips, they're going to have a laugh, they might learn something. They don't care about the underwater structures in Japan, right?

Jake: 1:40:42

So that's that sort of comfortable viewer experience is so important. You want it to be a like a. You want there to be a rhyme and a rhythm to it where people have that sort of comfortability, where it's not a jarring experience. They click on your video and then there's like things popping out at them when that normally wouldn't happen. They can ease into the video, they know what's happening and it's just this comfortable viewer experience where they get what they were looking for, right? So don't ever think that because one thing goes well, that everything else you're going to do is going to go well, because you might invest shitload of time and money into doing this thing over here, that is another gold shiny object that isn't necessarily going to be successful. Sure, if you really want to do that, slowly turn that train around and still have this train going. But slowly turn this train around and sort of just massage that side project, but don't but, don't try and do the money dance.

Darren: 1:41:37

It's a great point to finish, man.

Jake: 1:41:38

Yeah.

Darren: 1:41:39

Love you guys. Do You're a legend? This is so much fun, man.

Jake: 1:41:42

Appreciate it, brother. It's been great to do it.