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Kickoff Sessions
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Kickoff Sessions
#297 Bredan Kane - The Secret to Making Viral Content That Actually Sells
Watch This NEXT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlK2P76_ZZs
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(00:00) Preview
(00:46) How to Use Viral Content to Drive Business Revenue
(10:08) Scaling Without Losing Revenue Per Follower
(12:04) Importance of Storytelling on Social Media
(15:25) Why Podcast Clips Go Viral
(20:36) How to Make Your Content Emotionally Engaging
(27:09) Why Ashton Hall’s Content is Going Viral
(29:21) Building Your Offer Before Chasing Attention
(35:25) Why Going Viral Doesn’t Mean More Sales
(39:13) The Strategy Behind Clipper Accounts
(40:38) Founder-Led vs Brand-Led Content
(45:24) How to Get Comfortable on Camera
(54:45) The Biggest Struggles with Creating Content
(56:45) How to Get an ROI on Content
(59:42) Why Mastering Social Media Takes Time
How can someone use viral content to generate more revenue for their business?
Brendan Kane:Where most people struggle is they're operating off the old paradigm of marketing, which is create a niche message for a niche audience. We focus on what's called the generalist principle, which means how can we make our content accessible and interesting to the wider possible audience while still talking to that specific niche that is going to pay our bills? I know people with millions of followers that barely make six figures. I know people with millions of followers that have built billion dollar companies. Social media is an amazing tool to drive awareness, build connection and you can make a ton of money, but it's predicated and dictated by what is the foundational piece of your business.
Darren Lee:So, like all right man, let's kick off. Let's do it Round two. So I think where I'd love to start is how can someone use viral content to generate more revenue for their business?
Brendan Kane:Well, I think that there's first off, when we talk about virality, let's kind of define that, because virality is kind of thrown around a lot and I think at least what I see from my experience sometimes virality gets a bad rap because people see like prank videos or dog videos or just TikTok dances and they associate that with virality, but they don't necessarily associate that with your business. So, for example, if you're an accountant or a lawyer or some type of coach in like a business coach, like how is like doing a silly TikTok dance or posting videos about your dog or another dog going to actually correlate to revenue? So I think that the first way that I look at virality in our company hook point is what is the impact that it's having on your goals and your business? I don't ever believe of going viral for the sake of going viral. It needs to correlate to your specific expertise, to your specific services, your specific business.
Brendan Kane:And I think one of the challenges people run into is, especially if they're in a niche industry. They're like my industry is not sexy enough, it's like it's not interesting enough, it can't go viral. But the reality is lawyers go viral, insurance goes viral, real estate goes viral, nutrition, things of that nature. So for some businesses and I'm sure you've seen it some businesses you get 50,000 views on average per content and you're killing it. Others need hundreds of thousands, others millions or tens of millions. But it's really determined by the foundational aspect of your business and how are you correlating your content, your content strategy that drives that specific top level awareness, to what you do?
Darren Lee:So let's double tap on that. So let's say you are the lawyer, okay, and you're creating very actionable advice. So let's say you're showing people how to stay out of jail, how to not get caught for doing X, y, z, how to be compliant in their own field. How does that translate into like viral content? Because how do we hit the masses? So when I read through your books, you always talk about hitting a wider TAM, initially going broad, but then there's a specificity. So how can we? How can we do that? Basically, just want to take one quick break to ask you one question have you been enjoying these episodes? Because, if you have, I'd really appreciate if you subscribe to the channel so that more people can see these episodes and be influenced to build an online business this year. Thank you.
Brendan Kane:So where most people struggle is they're operating off the old paradigm of marketing, which is create a niche message for a niche audience. Now, as we look at social media, the paradigm has completely shifted. So, taking it back when I started in social media, the paradigm has completely shifted. So taking it back when I started in social media, I started in 2005. Those first five years of social media were pretty simple you get somebody to follow your account, you post something and people see it. But as more and more people started to enter the ecosystem of social media, to the point, today we're at 5 billion people using these platforms and the latest statistic I saw is there's over a billion pieces of content that are uploaded every day to social media across all these platforms. So if you think about any one of us, if we opened up our favorite app, there's probably 150,000 pieces of content that could be served to just you as an individual, based upon the amount of people that you follow, the type of content that you've engaged with. So obviously you can't just be seeded 150,000 pieces of content as you open up an app. That'd be just immensely overwhelming. So what had to happen as social media evolved? Well, social media platforms invented the algorithms, and the algorithms were designed and are designed to do one fundamental thing, and that is to keep people on the platforms longer, meaning the more time people spend on a platform, the more ads they can serve, the more profit they generate.
Brendan Kane:Now I know there's a lot of frustrated content creators that pour their heart and soul and energy into content and it doesn't work. I feel your pain, but it's not that the algorithms are out to get you. They're not suppressing your reach on purpose to get you to pay for reach. I know this because I've managed over $200 million worth of ad spend. They don't make money off of you and I boosting a post. They make it off of corporations spending billions and billions of dollars of advertising. In addition, why would Mr Beast be the most subscribed person on YouTube at this point? When he started at 13 years old in a bedroom in North Carolina, the most subscribed YouTube channel would be like Apple or McDonald's or Pepsi or one of those major brands that invest billions of dollars. So I say that because what these algorithms really care about is what, out of all of out of the billion pieces of content that are uploaded every day, what are the select few that I can send to the most amount of people grab their attention and hold their attention.
Brendan Kane:So, when we look at the old paradigm of creating a niche message for a niche audience, why doesn't that work? Well, because the minute that piece of content is seeded to somebody outside your audience, what's going to happen? They're likely going to scroll past it and not watch it. On top of it, in social media, you're not just directly competing against your competitors or people in your industry. Remember the 150,000 posts when we first opened up. You're competing against all of those. And what happens? When somebody typically creates a niche message for a niche audience, it typically feels stale, it feels boring, not super engaging. So at Hookpoint, what we do is we focus on what's called the generalist principle, which means how can we make our content accessible and interesting to the wider possible audience while still talking to that specific niche that is going to pay our bills?
Brendan Kane:So I'll give you a prime example of a client we worked with. It's a guy named Tanner Leatherstein, fascinating guy. At age 11, he created his first leather jacket. He just fell in love with leather goods and, like most people, he grows up and he has this. He just fell in love with leather goods and, like most people, he grows up and he has this dream but it kind of gets deflated. So he became a cab driver for a period of years and then just realized you know what I'm going to go back to that leather you know creating leather goods because I really love it. So he built a leather brand which would sell like high-end, handcrafted leather goods like iPhone cases, briefcases, purses, wallets and things of that nature.
Brendan Kane:But when he came to us he was struggling. He was using social media. He saw the vision of it but he was like plateaued at 2,000 followers. He couldn't get videos past 20,000 views. Why? Because he was just creating ads and was creating content that was like specifically niche to the people that would buy his product and services and specifically niche to the people interested in leather goods. So what we did with kind of that larger vision of like, how do we turn virality into commerce? How do we turn it into business?
Brendan Kane:We helped him design a storytelling format, and a format is basically it's a structure, it's a blueprint, it's well researched, it's proven to generate success over and over again. So you have kind of like the structure but you can insert your message or brand into it. So with Tanner, we created a format with him called Is it Worth it, where basically he would deconstruct. You know he'd buy like a $5,000 Chanel handbag and he'll actually pay the money for this because he doesn't want to take like free products from these companies and be forced to kind of give good reviews. But he'll take a $5,000 handbag and deconstruct it on screen to tell you whether it's worth the money that you're paying for it. So this storytelling format, anybody would be interested in it. Even I don't buy a $5,000 Chanel hammock but I want to see, like, are these companies ripping people off or is there actual substance to it? So that single format plays the generalist principle. It speaks to the wider audience, people like you and I that would never buy those things, but we're interested in it.
Brendan Kane:And because the numbers scale so large, even if it's just like 5% of his audience, because he went from 2,000 followers to 2.3 million across his social media channels. He has 94 videos, 94 individual videos with over a million views. So you think about that Like, let's just say, your business today, maybe on average, you're generating a thousand views of a video, but of that thousand, 70% is your core niche audience. Well, what if you can make that jump and you're generating a million views a month and it was less than 5%. So what does that impact? You're going from 700 to 50,000 potential customers. That's where the economies of scale come in. And with Tanner, like, he's not even doing like calls to actions in his content, he just has a link in his bio and people just buy his most expensive products, sell out, because he's building this relationship, he's building this trust, he's building this connection through story and the algorithm. See, oh, people are stopping and watching this, so let's seed it to more and more people.
Darren Lee:Do you think that you're working with percentages overall? So if it's like 5% are ICP, that will actually grow through time, because sometimes I'm seeing these smaller accounts have a very strong revenue per follower. Okay, so let's say 10,000 followers, they're making $50,000 a month. That's like a revenue per follower of X. Can you hold that relationship as your audience keeps on growing?
Brendan Kane:The answer is yes, but the deeper question is well, how are they growing? What are the methods? Are they growing? Are they losing sight?
Brendan Kane:You know, because you know, as the algorithms came into be, a lot of frustrated content creators would see less and less reach, less and less engagement with each piece of content they created. So they kind of seek, like hacks, brand new, like revolutionary medium, when in reality all social media is it's another storytelling platform. So if we look at the history of storytelling, storytelling has been leveraged to build civilizations. Like it started all the way back on cave walls of the cavemen putting things you know stories in terms of that and then it went to the Egyptians using hieroglyphics. Then it went to the printing press.
Brendan Kane:You know people were telling stories through books and then you invent the radio and the television and movies. Like social media is just another storytelling platform and most people don't realize that. They think that, like social media is some mystery box, that virality is like just pure luck. You know that it's like playing the lottery and like only the select few do it. But if you really analyze social media, it's the best storytellers that win and if you just focus on becoming a better storyteller, you will ultimately have success.
Darren Lee:What type of stories do you think in particular that you focus on? So I'm kind of familiar with more of the story the personal led story, okay, but you're bringing these frameworks like Tanner is a perfect example, like I've never heard the way that you've described that. Do you create unique story mechanisms for people?
Brendan Kane:So we analyze the world of storytelling and social media through formats and as I mentioned it's kind of a structure that you can insert your message into. Now at our company, Hookpoint, we've done 10,000 hours of research, and I'm not saying it's 10,000 because Malcolm Gladwell said you need 10,000 hours to become an expert.
Brendan Kane:Our team has actually logged over 10,000 hours of research and we've analyzed over 300 of these. You know formats or structures. So just to kind of give you another example of a format not in social media, but to give kind of concept to the format is you know, I started my career in the movie industry. You know 90% of the movies over the past hundred years have followed the exact same format and it's a three-act structure. And some people hear the word format and they're like, oh, that sounds cool, but I want to be original, I want to be authentic and a format feels like it's going to constrict creativity. But in reality formats unlock creativity. So if we think about, like Steven Spielberg, one of the best storytellers of our generation, if you look at his movies, you look at ET versus Jurassic Park, indiana Jones versus Lincoln, saving Private Ryan versus Encounters of the Third Kind, like each movie feels completely distinctly different. It's not like we sit down and be like, oh, there's Steven again, he's using another 3X structure.
Brendan Kane:We get lost, kind of, in that story. So what we're looking at with social media is these clear formats, these clear structures. So I'll give you some examples of them. We just mentioned Tanner, but, like a really popular one, is man on the street. So you approach a random stranger on the street and you engage with them. Now, the interesting thing about formats is don't pay attention to the street. So you approach a random stranger on the street and you engage with them. Now, the interesting thing about formats is don't pay attention to the content, pay attention to the context, and what I mean is a format like man on the street. It's used by school of hard knocks that does entrepreneurship business, where they approach a person and be like how did you make your first million dollars? It's used by a friend and client of ours, alex Stemp. That's a photographer, approaches random strangers on the street, offers them a professional photo shoot. There's another individual Body by Mark that approaches people that look fit on the street and asks what is your workout. Caleb Simpson approaches people on the street and asks how much do you pay for rent? And you do home tours. So these formats again, they're structures that have proven success time and time again that you can insert your message into.
Brendan Kane:Another one that a lot of people have probably seen is two characters one light bulb where it's the same person plays two different characters and they debunk a common myth about an industry. So Erica Kohlberg does it around like the fine print and legal contracts what happens if your AirPods break? What happens if your flight gets canceled or delayed? Mark Tilbury uses this around like financial aspects. There's another one walking listicles. Robert Croke does it where he's walking around the block and he just does like the top three things you need to do if you want to be the first millionaire in your family. So there's these clear structures that are available to people. You just need to insert your message into it?
Darren Lee:Would you add podcasting as a?
Brendan Kane:form yes absolutely.
Darren Lee:Why do you think some podcasters and their clips repurposed well work and then some completely flop? If you look at a Chris Williamson reel, of course he's a charismatic and he speaks really clear, but then there's some other people then that would have the same level of content that's repurposed. That wouldn't smash. And then also, to add to that, do you think platforms are different in terms of the algorithm, in response to the message too? Tiktok versus Instagram?
Brendan Kane:So, in terms of podcasts, let's talk long form and then we can talk short form. Long form the most successful podcasters. From a long-form perspective, they're creating an experience.
Darren Lee:So you hear.
Brendan Kane:Joe Rogan experience. He's one of the first people. But if you and this is a process that we do for all content, we call it the hook point mirror test If you really want to understand what's the difference between a high performer and a low performer, you put the high performer on one side of the screen, the low performer on the other side of the screen and you watch them side by side. You put the high performer on one side of the screen, the low performer on the other side of the screen and you watch them side by side. And if it's your content, as long as you're honest with yourself and you're comparing apples to apples comparison Like I wouldn't compare like Erica Colbert that does two characters, one light bulb, to a podcast, Vice versa.
Brendan Kane:I wouldn't do like man on the Street comparing it to a podcast, because they're two different formats. You need to compare apples to apples. You need to compare apples to apples. But if you look at like Stephen Bartlett, Joe Rogan, Lex Friedman, and you watch it, compared to like a podcast on YouTube that's getting like 1,000 views or 5,000 views, you will see this level of the experience they create within that environment.
Brendan Kane:They make you feel like you're there, that there's a conversation happening.
Brendan Kane:I think a lot of podcasters go wrong when they treat it as an interview because it's it's interviews have a high propensity for falling flat because you rely too heavily on the guest versus you know. Stephen Bartlett, joe Rogan, alex Friedman, they are, they're, they're, you know're taking you on a journey through the conversation versus just question answer. Question answer. Question answer Agreed.
Brendan Kane:And then in terms of the clips, the clips are completely different dynamic because it's short form. So a lot of the areas where it falls flat is obviously what is the hook Like? Are we driving a generalist approach or generalist principle hook in that that grabs our attention? Is there some type of massive perspective shift that's happening in the content? Is there an aha moment where we're coming in? The hook sets the expectation and we're completely flipping the perspective on what we thought about a new, about a specific subject matter. Because if we see the hook or we see the content as something we already know, you're going to move on, You're not going to share it, you're not going to engage with it. There's also a big thing that we call work-to-wow ratio. How hard does the viewer have to work to get that wow out of the clip? Does?
Brendan Kane:the viewer have to work to get that wow out of the clip. So if you, if it's too dense, if it's too kind of like using too much jargon, we have to think too hard, like our subconscious is trained that if we feel like we're being left behind, we just scroll past the next one.
Brendan Kane:Yeah, you just you just keep going to, to, to that next one, um. So we have to really look at you know what is the, the structure to that clip, to make sure that we're delivering on all these levels, that the not just grab attention but hold it. And sometimes, a lot of times, we see um and a lot of clips not just, you know, podcast clips is you need to have like a second or third hook in there, even in like a 60 to 90.
Brendan Kane:Second thing is like you, you, you have a hook, you, you, you, you shift that perspective with that and then another hook comes in and creates a new question and you want to keep going and you want to keep going to to find out the ending. And it's kind of like if you watch any movie, like what happens in a movie like mission impossible just came out, you know there's a challenge, they defeat the challenge and then they go down and there's a new challenge and then they have to defeat that and it just goes up and down, up and down. It's not like Mission Impossible or most movies that the character just goes in and they have just one main problem. There's many problems that lead up to solving that main problem. And you have to have that level of dynamics in you form podcast clip in addition to a long form one as well.
Darren Lee:This is crazy. This is so beneficial, by the way, the way that you think about this, because you can see it right. You can see examples where this hits and where it doesn't hit. So I have a public speaking coach and the first thing he said to me when we started working together was you're high on competency, but you're low on warmth, so you're not smiling, engaging, interacting and that's having an impact on when I'm speaking on stage, when I'm recording podcasts, and you have to interject that. And I feel for people that have high competency, they struggle sometimes to come down to center. How do you find that? In creating short form or any type of viral content, Almost the question is around how do you ensure that it's inviting right, it's? You're building that community, you're building that strong strength with the viewer and you're not looking at them from like a third party perspective to decide.
Brendan Kane:Yeah, so I kind of had a similar experience to you in my journey of being a speaker, being out there conveying information, is you know, I'm really logic based, so people say well, brendan, why don't you smile Like you know why you don't look like you're having fun or I'm having the best time ever, yeah.
Brendan Kane:Um. So I had to kind of take a step back and just be like you know what are those dynamics? What am I kind of doing wrong? Because, like, get so excited about what you want to share In my case it's information, it's data, it's facts but then a lot of people don't kind of connect with that. So at Hookpoint we use what we call communication algorithm and what it has been around since the 1970s and basically what it does is it breaks down the different ways that people perceive content, perceive the world, perceive you. So there's six different ways. So the largest subset is what you're talking about. What your speaking coach advised you on is feelings-based.
Brendan Kane:There's 30% of the population. So they connect with you based upon how you make them feel. So they share your content, they follow you, they buy your products and services based upon how they think it's going to make them feel. The second subset of the population is fact-based. So that's me, it's 25% of the population. So for them, it's not about feelings. It's like does this make sense? They want information, timeframes, facts, data and things of that nature. The third largest is fun-based. So for them, they want it to be engaging, they want it to be the reaction, the fun aspect of the content.
Brendan Kane:They want to know that they're going to enjoy it. 10% is values and opinion-based. So for them is do I trust this person? Do I believe in this person? Are they dedicated to me as an individual? And then another 10% is reflective-based, so they just reflect on the world.
Brendan Kane:So if you saw Oppenheimer with Albert Einstein, where he's the entire movie, he's just sitting out overlooking a lake, reflecting on the world. That was really him. He would just take information, stare out a window, stare at a lake and, like his best theories and ideas would come that way. And then the smallest subset of the population, 5%, is action-based, so they don't think. They don't feel, they just go. Like incidence is their psychological need. So the best example is again Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible. Like, what is he doing? He's jumping off the side of buildings, he's hanging off the sides of planes. He's not talking about his feelings, he's not talking about his opinions or facts, it's just go, go, go.
Brendan Kane:So in terms of what you're talking about is the content of what we're delivering doesn't need to change, but the context of how we're delivering doesn't need to change, but the context of how we're delivering it is. So, for example, like I worked, I got brought in by Gary Keller, the founder of Keller Williams, and we did analysis of how people sell homes and most of it is just fact-based. It's this house has five bedrooms, four bathrooms and an acre of land. So that's 25% of the population, but you're knocking out 75% or you're disconnecting from 75%. So how would we take the same content of a house and not completely change who we are, but also reshape it? So we still want to have facts and say this house has five bedrooms, four bathrooms and an acre of land, but you see this fireplace. Imagine what it's going to feel like when you're with your family around that fireplace on Christmas Eve opening presents.
Darren Lee:That's cool.
Brendan Kane:And did you see the pool in the backyard? You are going to have the funnest and craziest parties and all your neighbors are going to be super jealous and I really believe that this is a good fit for your family because this school district is the best in the state. But I highly recommend that you move fast now because this is the best house on the market and it's going to move fast. So, again, like I started with facts and then I went to feelings and imagination, the reflection part of it, with. I want you to reflect and imagine what it's going to be like on Christmas Eve. I talked about the friend. You know how jealous your friends and how much fun you're going to have with the pool. I layered in my beliefs in a subtle way of like this has the best school district in the market and then you know you need to move fast because this is the best house.
Darren Lee:So, moving to that action-based so basically, you're actually incorporating all of these things, yeah.
Brendan Kane:Typically when we work with clients, we say focus on the big three feelings, facts and fun because, you hit 75% of the population. Values and opinions can be tricky because even if you insert your values or opinions like, 50% could just disagree with that opinion that you have.
Darren Lee:How important is it to almost split the audience? So have people that are in your tribe cult community and then throw stones at the enemy. Like how often do you see? Well, it obviously works right. But is there a world where you can grow your business and your content and go viral without doing that stuff?
Brendan Kane:It's difficult. There's some, you know, some people intuitively do it Um, and it will work. I would say, for vast majority of the people that we work with and what we've seen, that's one of the issues that they're failing to to break through. It's like anybody we work with. We make them take this communication assessment so we can really understand their strengths and weaknesses and point that out to them, because this is and even like what you were talking about with your speaking coach it's not your fault that you weren't, you know, mostly connecting with people. You didn't have the awareness. But once you have awareness, then you can start working on the solution.
Brendan Kane:But it's, it's real. I'm not saying it's impossible. It's just really difficult for a majority of people stepping into social media, if they want to be kind of at that top 1% and really break through, to not have that diversity in terms of how they're communicating. However, you don't need to go overboard in any direction. You know, when I just broke down the house like I didn't spend a lot of time in each one, lot of time in each one.
Brendan Kane:So it's like you can just you know, you know, say like for you with you know feelings. It's just like, hey, it's, it's really great to see you all here today. I appreciate, um, the time that we're going to spend to connect together and that can be enough. Then you can move into your comfort zone. But you got to kind of open that channel, connect with them so that they have that motivation based upon their psychological needs being met and then you can move into your communication strengths.
Darren Lee:That's so interesting to observe, man, because you can again comparing the good and the bad.
Darren Lee:I can see the good and I can see the bad from it. I want to get your observation for a sec on Ashton Hall. So the ice dude, right? What do you think works so well there? I was going to pull up a clip but I don't have my phone on me. But if you saw the most recent clip from like yesterday, it's him running against another guy, an overweight guy. It has like 115 million views. Why has his videos consistently been hitting every single algorithm?
Brendan Kane:Well, one, it's retention. It's not going to hit the algorithm and build a, to build an audience and build viewership, if it's not grabbing and holding attention. So I think and I haven't consumed a lot of his content but I know who you're talking about. It's the same thing, though you know every day, but there's the visual hook in the beginning, like this guy with a shirt off, and especially the crazy hook with the ice water and things of that nature, and it sparks a level of curiosity of like what is this guy going to be doing? And then you mentioned what was this guy going to be doing?
Darren Lee:Um, and then you mentioned what was the recent video that he did. So he's doing a lot of videos of him running, yeah, and it's like him, and there's like a guy that's like generally like very overweight, it's like 250 pound, and the two of them are running side by side, and that's it, and it has like 115 million views. I'll throw it up on the screen, but it's uh, it's crazy like well, I think that there's that, I guess, the shock factor well, yeah, but I think the first question is is like how many times have you seen that?
Brendan Kane:have you? How many times have you seen like the ultra fit guy, true, versus that, and it's kind of like goes to a childhood story of the the tortoise versus the hare is like you know what? What is gonna happen? Kind of that from that perspective. But but there's the initial hook and I would have to kind of see the video to see kind of how it kind of pans out. But you're seeing, you're, you're being posed a situation and then it's asking yourself how is this situation going to unfold?
Brendan Kane:But, he, he in and of himself is just a natural hook, just based on his body, physique, the way that he approaches the camera, the way that he approaches the camera, the way that he shows up on the camera. That kind of sparks the initial curiosity to stop the scroll and then see, well, where is this going to naturally unfold to?
Darren Lee:And if you look at his business, I'm pretty sure he has like a coaching program for personal branding on the backend. Like he has that attention, he's driving it into an option for people to book calls or whatnot. How much do you focus on the back end business before you approach this right? So we know contextually let's take an actual example he's helping people with fitness and personal branding on Instagram. How much do you think of the offer before you do the content?
Brendan Kane:And I can tell you a story as to why I asked you that in a second too. So the way that I look at it is people are always asking what is the return on investment of social media, like how do you make money off of social media? Can you make money off of social media?
Darren Lee:That's a good question.
Brendan Kane:And the reality of the answer is different from what most people think, and's that what is the size of your vision? Like? I know people with millions of followers that barely make six figures. I know people with millions of followers that have built billion dollar companies. So the reality is is like social media is an amazing tool to drive awareness, build connection and you can make a ton of money, but it's predicated and dictated by what is the foundational piece of your business. So I'll give you an example. A friend of mine, michelle Phan, was one of the original YouTube beauty influencers and she built millions of subscribers, millions of views a month. And there's so many beauty influencers out there. Now, what do most beauty influencers do for monetization? Well, they do brand deals.
Brendan Kane:They go from brand deal to brand deal to brand deal. There's nothing wrong with that, but that is a real short-term kind of view on what the potential of the audience that you're building. So Michelle decided with three of her friends that she's going to form a company, and she founded a company called Ipsy, which was a quarterly subscription box. Within three years it was doing $120 million a year in revenue. At one point it was valued at $800 million. But she didn't just stop there.
Brendan Kane:L'oreal came to her one of the biggest cosmetic companies in the world and instead of saying, accepting, you know, I'll just do a brand deal with you. She's like no, I want to actually partner with you and create my own cosmetics lines. And L'Oreal had never done that in their history. They would always acquire companies. They would never build them from scratch. But because she had that foresight, because she had that vision, she was able to go after something much bigger. So to your initial question, like yes, you should have a clear understanding of what your foundational offer is or how you're doing going to be generating revenue. But what I really challenge people to do is dream as big as humanly possible because your return on investment in social media, your ability to monetize. It really comes down to how big you're willing to dream, how big you want to build something. Now, that is not necessarily right for everybody, but if you want to build something massive, well, start thinking like that from day one.
Darren Lee:It's also a time block too, right? Like, if you're getting into organic content, it's so that you're doing it for a long time, right? I feel like a lot of guys get into the space more entrepreneur mindset and they're looking for more like direct response, immediate ROI. But you're in the game for a long time, like you've been creating content since 2005.
Darren Lee:I started five years ago and in many ways, our business has only been really growing the past 18 months. You know, from going from someone who was creating content in his bedroom. Does that make sense? And where can we get to in five more years of that consistent release of good content, not just any trash, you know? So I do think a lot of it is based on the quality of the entrepreneur too, like, what did they want to do? Where do they want to get to? Otherwise, you can be just doing nothing with the content, right? I think the worst thing you can do is leave it just going aimlessly. You're creating this content and you're not capturing it for at least your lead magnets going into your newsletter, which you've done really well as well, right, you have that on the back of everything. You have on the front end as well.
Brendan Kane:Yeah, it's obviously. Everything comes down to the quality of the entrepreneur and the quality of the idea and the business.
Brendan Kane:And, to your point, we're talking about organic social media and that is building an audience. It's not direct response. What most people get wrong with social media is your profile is not your website and your posts are not your ads. Your job with social media is to build a relationship with an audience. It's to get people to know, like and trust you. And once people know, like and trust you, they will automatically want to buy from you.
Brendan Kane:Versus the other approach and there's nothing wrong with it is direct response. Ads is like you. Just you know you can throw content in front of people and make an offer or, you know, sell something directly. Uh, now, there's limiting nature to that. Like you can scale a business, but are you going to build a real following, are you going to build a real brand by just doing that? And, as you mentioned, with organic social, it's a long-term play, you know, and you just look at the, the upside of the people. That master that we were were talking about Mr Beast earlier. Mr Beast, you know, spent over 10 years building his audience and the relationship, and the interesting thing is his audience grew so big that brand deals he couldn't really do them anymore because he was providing more value than the brands could afford. He was generating so many views that brands couldn't afford to pay him what he was worth.
Brendan Kane:So what did he do is he built his own business. Feastivals is one of the fastest selling chocolate bars in the world. It's projected to do $500 million in revenue this year. His company is his overall company is valued at $5 billion. So that's like the power of building an audience. He didn't start with direct response. He didn't start by trying to sell things. He started by building that relationship and once he had that relationship, you know that audience wants to support him. They want to engage with them and take that next level and that next approach.
Darren Lee:Tell me about scenarios whereby people have, like, blown up their channel, gone super viral, but then they're not capitalizing the right way. They're not. They don't have, like, let's say, any sort of brand equity being built. What are some of those examples you've seen that maybe they're blowing up for the wrong reasons.
Brendan Kane:Well, I think that there's. There's people that again are going viral for the sake of going viral. And it's not, like it's not really correlated to their expertise or their business, so that how do you control for that sorry how do you mean? How do you control for that?
Darren Lee:so, for instance, like, let's say, my, my background is in podcasting and teaching people, podcasting and creating content and creating offers. If I have a video of me and my dogs and the dogs go super viral, I'm bringing in a hundred thousand followers that are not correlated to my core ICP or anything related to it. How do I control? For, like, those events not happening right, because you still want value based content, so they'll be able to show my values, but at the same time, we want to make sure that we're not diluting the message.
Brendan Kane:Yeah Well, I guess the question is what are? So there's there's a delineation between what you just said, because there is, once you have the audience and establish the audience, you can let them into more of your kind of personal life and your dogs and your families and things of that nature. That reinforces that relationship. But until you get to that point I would question well, why are you posting that piece of content? What is the correlation of that to what you do? And I'm not saying you can't correlate it, you can. But I think in the beginning you need to build that relationship with the audience and, like, anybody can post videos about their dogs and if it goes viral, like, what does that bring into the equation of your ecosystem? Does that really say something about what you do? Um, what's foundational to what you're going to be talking about in introducing them to that standpoint?
Brendan Kane:So I, at least in the beginning, I suggest being kind of more strategic and methodical about kind of what you're posting, why you're posting it and and how it leads to your end goal. And then, once you hit that, you know that level of point where you've established yourself, you stab with that that relationship. Then you can kind of intertwine that. But to be honest, I wouldn't really worry about that as much. Like if, if let's just say, that dog video generated millions of views and a hundred thousand people followed you. I don't think that they're just following you because that video, you know, got all those views. There's something in it that that correlated to them wanting to, to, to follow you as an individual. But I don't get caught up too much in kind of worrying about that aspect.
Brendan Kane:I think that you can always, you know, work around that, because one of the kind of controversial things and the truths and realities about the realities about the world that we live in today is followers and subscribers don't mean what they used to mean Meaning.
Brendan Kane:You know, there's no free wins. Like, if your content is not dialed in, it's not going to reach your followers and a lot of the algorithms they don't want to just seed your content to followers, they want to seed it to people beyond your audience. So oftentimes I think people get too caught up in the follower number and less on, like, what is your success rate of each video? Like, if you focus on the success rate of each video and the content you're producing, the followers will come. But if you generate the followers and you don't know how to reach them because your content and story isn't dialed in, then you're kind of setting yourself up for failure, because there's a lot of ways you can play the frequency game and post five or 10 times a day and generate followers, but if each one is generating 5,000 views, what are you doing? For when you have those followers, you're not gonna be even to be able to actually reach them because you're not focusing on how do you become a masterful storyteller.
Darren Lee:What do you think about sub-accounts? So people like Imangaji, luke Bellemeyer, a lot of these guys created sub-accounts and they're called Clipper accounts now and WAP you know that platform WAP actually incentivize clipping now. So creating sub-accounts based on your favorite influencer and running a shit ton of traffic into that and then into the main account what's your tall process on that?
Brendan Kane:I think it's a great and smart strategy once you have your strategy in place, Because, like, let's just say that you do that, but you're like Iman Ghazi you mentioned like he's a master at storytelling, Like he's mastered that. So like for him to do that strategy adds fuel to the fire of what he's already doing. But if you're just using that as a way to mitigate your unsuccessful content in your own channel I'm not saying it's not going to add to it or not work at all, but to me I would focus on, like, how do you become a masterful storyteller? It's also kind of the concern that I have with engaging. There's an over-reliance of brands and companies and influencers. I did the first influencer campaign in 2006 for a movie, so I've kind of seen the ebbs and flows and the evolution of it. And don't get me wrong influencers are a great asset if you know how to run the campaigns properly. But I think brands are over-reliant on them because they can't figure out organic social themselves and that's why they keep relying on them.
Darren Lee:So question for you on that would you suggest brands to be building based on the founder, founder-led brand or more of the company level? It?
Brendan Kane:depends, because it's like is it easier to build off a founder? Yes, but you don't want to build off a founder. If the founder doesn't want to do it Like, if they don't want to create content, they don't want to be the face of it, it's going to come off. You know it's going to come off in the content.
Brendan Kane:It's going to come off inauthentically. But you can look at other examples like Duolingo killed it in terms of the um, the mascot that they did, and they're the largest language learning app in the world. So in addition is like what happens if the founder leaves or gets sick or things of that nature? Founder-led brands can be extremely successful in terms of social media and they can be complete failures. Again, can, again, you can have other ways of building the brand through social media. It just really comes down to the execution side of it.
Darren Lee:I guess what would be your advice there? Would you advise people to kind of because everyone, if you're bad at something, you're going to hit it, but then you get good at it and you get better at it, right. So would you advise, like founders, to start their marketing for their business as they're launching their business or as they're growing, to try it from their perspective and then try 100%. I would try it, yeah.
Brendan Kane:But the question is why do you hate it? And I would also ask. The question is what things have you gotten good at that you hated. You know like-.
Brendan Kane:That's what I mean, you know, like, how often do you get good at something where you just hate it? Like, sometimes success leads to liking to something, but most times it doesn't. Now, I think some people hate it because of the concept of being in front of people, not feeling comfortable, being on camera or in front of a lot of people. That, I think, is more of a limiting belief that you should get to the bottom of, like, what is actually causing that, because, like, that could be some hidden childhood trauma or something that is preventing that level of success. But there was another thing that, um, that was probably kind of one of the biggest eye openers in my career. So when I was, you know, when I was starting off my career, uh, working in the entertainment industry, I had a partnership with MTV and they were introducing me to to different kind of celebrities and musicians and things, and at the time I was in kind of that entertainment bubble and that entertainment ecosystem and I I thought that everything was talent-based, like the most talented people rise to the top. But what I found was there was this big paradigm shift and it was when I got introduced to Taylor Swift and started working with her, and one of the things that people don't realize about Taylor Swift is she's the reason for success.
Brendan Kane:And one of the most brilliant things that she did is she understood that social media was not a one-to-many platform. It was a one-to-one platform Because, if you think about when you are consuming content on social media, you're sitting by yourself, you're on your bed, you're on the couch, on the train, on the bus and things of that nature. So she understood better than anybody of fostering that one-to-one relationship with her fans. And don't get me wrong, taylor is a massive talent, but her understanding of cultivating that one-to-one interaction with fans allowed her to explode to the highest levels.
Brendan Kane:Where you have these Swifties and you have these people that will turn out and support her in anything that she does that even somebody like a Beyonce or a Rihanna or some of these other big superstars don't have, her fans will do anything for her, will support her in any way and that's why she's. I don't know what she's at this point, but last year she did over a billion dollars in concert sales. She's going to be one of the highest grossing musicians of all time because she understood that dynamic. So if you're struggling to kind of be like I don't feel comfortable speaking to a lot of people or being in front of the camera. Well, let's just simplify it when you step foot in front of that camera, just pretend you're talking to one person, just build that connection with one person, and that will take a lot of the pressure off for you, to kind of allow you to go to that next step and get those repetitions in and get better and better and better at it.
Darren Lee:It's like writing too right. Even I wrote just before he came here. I was writing to one specific person in mind and that allowed my writing to be such more fluent. Just come easy, and it's the same as speaking. I think people think YouTube is this platform that they're speaking to an audience the entire time, which, if you have one avatar in mind, it just makes things a thousand times easier. And then, ideally, that's your ICP and then, ideally, that person is a proxy for how many other people? A thousand times, a thousand more people.
Darren Lee:I saw Leila Hormozy talk about this, where she said that she didn't want to create content. Same with Alex. Actually, alex didn't want to create content. Same with alex actually, alex didn't want to create content, any of that, but the price of not creating content was so much greater, basically, and they just came to that realization. I have to get comfortable with being on camera. I have to get good at this. So what's your advice? People are there, right, because you've been doing this since 2005. I've been doing this since 2020. We're comfortable on camera for the most part. How would you frame that in the beginning for people?
Brendan Kane:Well, again, I think that I kind of look at it from a human behavior and human psychology standpoint. Is, I almost start with, what is the underlying reason you feel uncomfortable? What is the underlying reason that you hate it? Because you may be able to unlock something, versus trying kind of like blunt force your way through it. I think some people can do that, but a lot of people will try the blunt force way and just like roll up your sleeves and force yourself to do it and they'll just burn themselves out, so that, like what you had mentioned about the Hermoses, like they had a larger vision for what they wanted to achieve and they kept that larger vision in mind.
Brendan Kane:And you know, from a, you ask yourself, from a scale of one to 10, with 10 being the highest, like how motivated are you to reach that end goal? And you can leverage that motivation to push through. Like that is one way. But I kind of look at it from a psychology perspective of like what? Where are these? Where are these limiting beliefs or where is this discomfort coming from? Because I think if you can solve those underlying aspects, I think it's just going to make you a stronger entrepreneur or stronger business owner, just beyond that level of communicating on camera.
Darren Lee:I'm just taking my examples. So I've recorded 300 podcasts and it was around 200 in. I was thinking like, why am I not getting better at delivering my message? And this is when I went into public speaking. And then I started doing a bit of stage work and online workshops and in-person workshops and I knew it was like that one change I could make that would make me 10 times better and have 10 times more of an impact. So it was me thinking well, where do I want to be in five years? I want to be on stages. I want to be in very large stages. I want my podcast to keep on growing, my impact keep on growing.
Darren Lee:I need to make this change back here and it's funny because it's problem awareness I wasn't really aware that I had a problem, maybe a small bit, but it was until I had to shine a light on it to say, okay, I can improve this way, I can become more comfortable, I can relax, I have the receipts, I have the experience, I can come and actually enjoy it more. Right, because a big part of content is actually enjoying it and saying that I can do this for a long time, because I think that's where people burn out. Then They'll say they're burnt out, but they're probably just hating their life.
Brendan Kane:Yeah, who knows what they're hating, and that's why I'm kind of hesitant to just say push through it.
Darren Lee:Exactly yeah.
Brendan Kane:Because, like you said, it took 200 podcasts then to find that kind of hidden.
Darren Lee:Yeah, it was kind of like I have many podcasts that have blown up, so this is quite interesting because I have some podcasts that have blown up a ton and then I have some that are smaller, and it's usually not to do with me, right, it's obviously some guest dependent and so on, but there's levels of skill and ability that I need to get better on straight up, and I think it's giving myself the permission to one, improve and then two, just have more fun, like be it, and then I can do this end forever yeah, there's not many podcasts that have got the 300 yeah, and that's where it's just like my, how I've lived my entire career in my entire life is go get.
Brendan Kane:The help that you need is like, um, like you just talk about public speaking. Before I ever stepped foot on stage for the first time, I hired a speaking trainer and helped me craft my keynote work on my delivery and things of that nature, and when I go to conferences you can totally tell even if they're really smart the people that are not trained because they, they, they just drone out the audience and like they run over time, um, and things of that nature.
Brendan Kane:The same thing with like the the challenge before is like if you're stuck with not understanding, kind of like what's holding you back, like go to therapy, get advice, get you know some type of sounding board.
Brendan Kane:Same thing that I always advise in social media is like, if you have like, because we work with business professionals that have a successful business but have zero social media experience, like we literally worked with a hand doctor zero views, zero followers but she was successful, like in her practice, and if she went on her own she may have never learned it or it may have taken her five or ten years, but within you know, six months she went from zero to you know, 750,000 followers.
Brendan Kane:She has 30 videos, over 1 million views. She got a book deal, a podcast deal and a reality TV show deal because you had the right guidance you can point out to what you were talking about is like these aspects that you may be lacking, that you just won't realize it, like you've got to kind of generate that level of awareness, and that's like, literally, I built my business like just taking every dollar I earned and putting it back into learning, to growing, to finding advisors, to finding teachers, to finding strategists, to hiring smart people and things of that nature. And you know, I think that the more that you can invest in your learning, the more that you can invest in your own growth, ultimately, you're going to find the answers you know quicker and scale faster and even the answers that you don't even know.
Darren Lee:You're looking for it's 100 it's what you don't, it's what you don't know. Like I generally go around two to three masterminds a year and I'm like I'm going to one in june and I'm speaking at two in june, and I'll just pick things up that are just so adjacent to why I'm there, like I've gone to masterminds before that are just so adjacent to why I'm there, like I've gone to masterminds before that are business related and I was getting accounting advice and I knew what I was doing over here. So it's the value of the feedback is not necessarily in the direct. What you're going to get. It's all the subtle nuances around the corner and even things like you can learn how to build your business a better way. If you're in a good coaching program, you're like ah, I like that they use Airtable, I don't like that they don't do this. You know, does that make sense? It makes you just more well-rounded, it's more experience.
Brendan Kane:It's basically TLD or you know. Yeah, I mean when I, you know, at one point I was, you know, stuck in my career, like I was busy working for other companies and helping people behind the scenes be really successful whether it was musicians like Taylor Swift or companies like MTV or Viacom or Skechers and I wanted to make that inflection point is like I want to have impact in the world. I want to share information, not just with these individual people, but with everybody, so that their voices could be heard, because I fundamentally believe there's people all over the world that can transform it in a positive way. They just need the kind of the guidance, the strategy to level up on their skill sets to make that happen. So I was a big fan of Tim Ferriss and the five-hour work week. I thought it was like an amazing hook and I was like I want to create a book, like I want to do what Tim Ferriss did.
Brendan Kane:But I had a lot of self-doubt, like I was just like who am I? I've never written a book. It's probably going to suck. Like I'm not a writer. Like who am I to share this information? What if this thing fails?
Brendan Kane:Like all these limiting beliefs that I was telling myself and I just said you know what Screw this?
Brendan Kane:I'm just going to hire somebody that has written 20 books before to help me shape it, to guide me, to show me how to take all of my information, my experience, my skill sets and apply it in this format of a book.
Brendan Kane:And because I was willing to take that step, willing to take that action at the time, it was costly for me to do that. I invested a good chunk of the money that I had in the bank to make that happen. But because I was willing to take that action At the time, it was costly for me to do that, like, I invested a good chunk of the money that I had in the bank to make that happen. But because I was willing to take that step. You know that first book was 1 million followers and it became an international best seller and it opened up all of these doors. But if I hadn't kind of like sought that guidance and kind of tried to mitigate the learning curve that I had, maybe I would have published the book, but it probably was going to be garbage, not because the information wasn't there, but the way that you kind of shape it and deliver it.
Darren Lee:I'm thinking of even my experience when we built the agency which became the media company. It was like four years and it's still doing really well, Like it's a multiple seven figure business on its own. But I had to chew glass Whereas we went through the education piece, I had met my James Kemp on my podcast and he'd given me some advice and then I had just paid for his advice and we had done four years where I did in the past business in around 60 days, genuinely 60 days, Cause I was like how do I do this? Like this, perfect, done, Okay, fantastic.
Darren Lee:Yes, I'd learned all that knowledge over the years and the compounded effect of being in the game, but it was quite literally a 60-day process. I was like, okay, we're up and running, We've got customers, let's go. And I think about doing that myself. I would have probably failed right, Because with customer-related businesses, there's so much people you need for the velocity and so on and so forth, so it's a big unlock. One need for the velocity and so on and so forth, so it's a big unlock. One thing I want to ask you there was almost when someone, it's like almost anti-halo effect when someone has done so much in one domain. When they move into content, they almost think it's going to be easy, right. They think like oh, like I'm a doctor, this should be easy. How do you manage expectations? I have a lot of clients like this that are super successful.
Brendan Kane:They will be really good at content but they think that it's easier than what it is. Well, honestly, like somebody like that, like a doctor, I think has a little bit more perspective, because I just say, well, how long did it take you to master being a doctor, or being a lawyer, or?
Darren Lee:being an accountant.
Brendan Kane:How many nuances are there between a great doctor or a great lawyer and a poor doctor or poor lawyer? We cut the learning curve down because we've spent 10,000 hours researching this stuff. I've spent 20 years in this space. So we can create the blueprint to cut that learning curve by 80% or 90%, but ultimately you need to show up.
Brendan Kane:I think that a lot of people will hire a social media manager or will hire a team or hire like an editor or an agency and like, if the individual doesn't at least understand it, like, how are you going to hire the right person? And that's where I see a lot of times is you know, you'll hire an editor, you'll hire a videographer, you'll hire a social media manager. Ensure they may have years and years of experience, but that doesn't mean they understand the fine nuances of what it takes to make that jump into that top 1%. So what I always, you know, recommend is at least try and understand the baseline yourself. And yes, it's typically. Anything is typically more challenging than what you get into it.
Brendan Kane:But going back to what we were talking about earlier, like how much of a priority is this for you? On a scale of one to 10? What is this going to lead to and how important is that thing it's going to lead to? And if that thing that you're trying to lead to is super important, you're more likely to stick it out and do it. If that thing is not, that foundation isn't there and it's not super important, then yeah, you're probably not going to stick around. But it's like in today's world, with 5 billion people on these platforms, there's no free wins, there's no real shortcuts and even if you like, let's just say you generate a million followers in the first six months like, you still need to cultivate that relationship with that audience for years to come.
Darren Lee:So, it needs to be something that you're invested in the long term for, and that there's so much coming up for me when I hear this, because this is the ROI argument. Right, it's people that get into the space. I'm not seeing an ROI. It's been 60 days, 90 days. How do you manage that? As a result, because I it's still going to cost you, right, even the equipment. I actually have a studio in Bali that I built, dude. The studio has broken my heart. It cost me like 20K to build just equipment. The equipment breaks just so fickle, Whereas I go to a studio got to pay for a studio. So there's always going to be cost involved. There's always investment involved. How do you manage the ROI expectation of content?
Brendan Kane:Well, there's a few things as we talked about earlier. You know, the ROI is going to be dictated by how strong the foundation of your business is.
Darren Lee:How much?
Brendan Kane:can it scale? In addition to like well, what is the cost if you don't do it? So if you're going to stop, well, what is the ultimate you know outcome that you're going for? We've had clients that within six months they're making six or seven figures off of social media. There's some clients that don't do that don't make any money because they need to kind of like have that one thing click and once that one thing clicks, it skyrockets. But again, it really comes down to like how much are you willing to put into this from a work perspective? How important is this? Do you actually believe that social media works in terms of, you know, driving growth in your business? If you don't believe it, just don't do it, because if you don't believe it, you're gonna bring that disbelief into the process, you're gonna bring it into when you're sitting in front of the camera and they're ultimately going to get frustrated with it and quit. But if you believe in it, like you know, even with our business, like you know we guarantee that you're going to generate a million views in 120 days. Otherwise, we'll keep working with you for free until you do, and that's just the baseline. Like I just had somebody use our. A cartoonist, use our model and just hit a billion views. We just gave him a billion view award. Like I've had two or three clients that generated over a billion views.
Brendan Kane:The process works, like because it's pure storytelling and if you're committed to that, if you're committed to perfecting, you know your story, through what we talked about in terms of a format, it will succeed, whether it happens. I can't guarantee it's going to happen in two weeks, four weeks, you know a few months or a year, because it has to. It has to, you know, take its course in terms of what you put into it. But it really comes down to what is your motivation. Why are you doing this? Like, if you're trying to build something big and you believe that social media can help you to do it, then stick with it. It's the same thing as, like we talked you talked about an example with a doctor. Like I don't even know, like how many years does somebody have to go through medical school? And like training before they actually become a real doctor? I think it's gotta be like 10 years or something.
Brendan Kane:Like you're willing to spend 10 years. Like you're willing to spend 10 years but you're not willing to spend like a year in social media. Well then, why are you doing it?
Darren Lee:Like, a lot of this is top six inches, a lot of it's psychology, a lot of it's limiting beliefs.
Brendan Kane:A hundred percent.
Darren Lee:Because I think you and I both don't struggle with action. For me there's no alternative. I'm like got to make this thing work, got to make the short film work, got to make the short form work, got to make the post work. So I'll do the thing I need to do to get the result that I want to get, whereas I feel like people that put their hands up and complain they're just not there yet, they haven't done the development. It's kind of like when you, when you go into the business world, you actually have to do a lot of personal development to develop as a person to be able to attract the clients that you want. You have to do that development, otherwise your business won't grow, you won't become that person. Do you manage those expectations when people join your world? Do you bring them through that?
Brendan Kane:Just from a teaching perspective, I'd love to learn I mean we do to the subject matter or the expertise you're bringing to the table. Oftentimes you're dealing with limiting beliefs, past traumas and things that are being projected onto your work together. That's typically where the issues come about and there's only so much we can do Like we can't be your therapist in a way, like we try and help as much as possible.
Brendan Kane:But that is, you know, a real issue where these projections come onto the work together, where it has nothing to do with you as an individual or the service you're offering.
Brendan Kane:You know it has to do with something else that they're dealing with in their life or or or in their past. But yeah, we try, like we're very honest and transparent, like and again, like why we offer like a guarantee of a million views in 120 days because we love helping clients that are putting in the work and that are successful. Like we love nothing more than seeing somebody work really hard and trying to grow their business. And we will support you as long as we see like you're a true partner and like you're putting in the work, like that's something we love. Like the challenge and I'm sure you've probably seen it with clients you work with is like if they're not going to do the work, if they're not going to do anything and just point the finger and blame on other people, there's only so much you can help them, not just in that context but as a human being.
Darren Lee:Sinking ship effectively. I love your perspective on it, though, because you're so right there's only so much you can do as the provider, and this is actually why I love coaching, because you'll find this well, I'll look, our business has grown so much over the past couple of years, but our agency clients still view us, look down on us. It's kind of a weird dynamic, and he said well, you do a service to them, so you are a servant of them, whereas our coaching clients we like liberate them, we teach them, we give them the ability to think for themselves, to create their own content and build their own business. The dynamic is different and, as a result, like, the mindset is different. So I think that's why I asked you the mindset side, because a big part of our coaching is getting people to get over their own limiting beliefs, whereas in the agency we just do the content right, so they haven't done the development. It's a very interesting observation.
Brendan Kane:Yeah, even in my own business and the struggles of building a business and running a business, when something, when something goes wrong, if we hired the right person, somebody is not delivering, um, you know we, we spent about a bunch of money on something and it didn't work. You know, at a macro level, I try and tie it back to what did I do wrong? You know what, what? What was it that attracted me to this opportunity or this person that ultimately didn't succeed? What did I miss in that process?
Brendan Kane:You know I invest over six figures a year in my personal. You know growth and development, because I know all of these things as an individual project onto the business, carry over to the business, carry over to the work that you do, how you show up. So, again, I just think it's so critically important that you invest in yourself, you take ownership in yourself of things working or not working, so that you can improve. And I think that a lot of that is lost sight in kind of whether it's social media or scaling any type of businesses is how are you contributing to the success or failure of what you're doing? And taking that, that ownership. And once you take that ownership, it's very liberating, like, because then you control your destiny, like you control the, the ultimate outcome of of how successful you can be that's super interesting it's been.
Darren Lee:It's big unlocked for me the the amount of work you've done on yourself. It's a huge observation I've made. I didn't realize that you've like literally done this much coaching yourself and a lot of the internal work. What do you think was a driver for that? What was a big contributor for you to be like, damn, I need to, I need to put my trust in other people like release, control, invest and on, because that in itself is a skill.
Brendan Kane:I like, I mean, I just love the process of learning, I love the process of growing. I just don't want to be complacent. You know there's a lot of, you know, trauma that I carried over from young childhood, of being in a situation where you know there was abusive relationships that kind of diminished my self-worth in a lot of ways. That held me back from kind of viewing myself in kind of a successful light or certain light. And you know, when you spend years and years and years of people telling you you're not good enough, you know, then, that you know me unlock the ability?
Brendan Kane:well, if I'm not, how do I become better? And it's that kind of reoccurring pattern of like how do I keep improving to myself, not to prove it to other people, but proving it to myself? And that is a part of the pattern that I've repeated, you know, with, and you know I've knocked out a lot of those patterns, but I still continue to want to kind of operate at the highest possible level because, like to me, like the work that we do, we can have tremendous impact, we can help a lot of people. And, like we have one life, you know to live, and like you know that time is fleeting and I just want to maximize the full potential of what I can achieve, in that you know time, that time frame, not necessarily trying to compare myself to other people or having specific benchmarks of what other people have done, but just what is my highest potential and how can I show up at the highest level for the people that we serve in the work that we do?
Darren Lee:I think it's very similar to my position, which was I got to a certain point on my own and then realized well, why is it not working? It's because I was viewing myself in the wrong lens and, as a result, I wasn't actually doing the internal work and that was limiting my potential. And when I started to do that, it put me in a better position to not compete with other people, but then to say, okay, this is the unrealized potential if I don't do it. So yeah I to say a big thank you, sir.
Brendan Kane:yeah, this was amazing, man. I feel like this was a. I feel like this touch a different angle, even on you personally as well, that a lot of people may not have even seen before. So a big thank you, man. Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me awesome man. Yeah, thank you so much.