Kickoff Sessions

#303 Matt Kelly - He Scaled an Ecom Brand to $20M+ (Here's How)

• Darren Lee

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(00:00) Preview and Intro
(02:48) Why Matt Built a Team Instead of Going Solo  
(05:16) Losing Creativity as the Business Grew  
(08:22) Moving to a Unit Economics Business Model  
(11:50) Equity Dilution and Planning for an Exit  
(13:04) How Much Do Investors Really Help?  
(15:01) The Biggest Drivers Behind Spacegoods’ Growth  
(16:12) Shifting from Meta Ads to Influencers and YouTube  
(17:43) Founders as the Face of the Brand?  
(20:58) Is Community Building Actually Worth It?  
(26:56) Why E-Commerce Is Harder Than Agencies or Info Products  
(30:54) The Truth About High-Ticket Dropshipping  
(33:24) Three Ways to Scale an E-Commerce Brand  
(33:43) Why Retail Margins Can Beat DTC  
(36:16) Challenges of Expanding into the U.S. Market  
(41:01) Spending £500k a Month on Ads  
(46:07) Struggles with Managing a Team  
(49:26) Keeping Top Talent and Avoiding Corporate Culture  
(53:14) Why Matt Wants to Leave the UK

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Darren Lee:

What was the main reason, or one of the main contributing factors for you to be able to scale so?

Matt Kelly:

fucking fast. Like with any brand, having a product that clicks in a market and therefore like the acquisition unit, economics makes sense.

Darren Lee:

How much are you spending a month on that? Half a million.

Matt Kelly:

Fuck. Community is just a fluffy bullshit term that people use as an excuse to host running events that make no money. But having said that, I do think community is probably how you start to build a bit more of a cult audience. The founder is probably how you start to build a bit more of a cult audience.

Darren Lee:

The founder is probably more likely to be the face at the start, maybe to like 20 million in revenue and then, over time, the brand community and the brand has more of a life of its own. Third podcast, as we chatted earlier, when we started, when you started, it was like beginning space goods. Then you were kind of hacking together, bro, scaling it. And now where are you currently at in the business?

Matt Kelly:

the biggest difference, just fundamentally, the team like basically it was a year and two months ago something we did that pod like may june 2024 um, yeah, business is like roughly twice as big revenue wise. But I think the bigger thing is back then, when I was in bali last year, I was like stressing about everything working loads. Now I could just fuck off for six months and it'd be fine. So it's definitely I'm not planning on doing that entirely, but I think, yeah, it feels like much more of a machine and I've definitely probably mindset has changed a lot, even in the past year of like I think the whole like hunched over a laptop 15 hours a day, it's not. It's not how you get to the next level. Like what got you here won't get you there.

Matt Kelly:

I think that's how you get to like 10 million revenue maybe, and there's a lot of guys that probably get stuck there, including my own friends naming their names. I think they just people that don't get to the next level. I think have an inability to hire and properly delegate, but not just delegate, but like give people ownership of stuff. So now we have a, like I said, a team of 15 employees plus our agencies and shit. Um, I have an md who's, I guess, in a way like the operational ceo of the business, and all these people have bits of equity as well, so they are literally owners, um, but I think that helps give them like ownership in terms of their mindset.

Matt Kelly:

It's not perfect, right, because it's not like everyone's a founder, but yeah, I think as well, as I've spoke about in my own channel, like even in the video I put out the other day, obviously I'm a venture-backed business. That does change the dynamics of things and it kind of forces you to professionalize earlier than you may have done otherwise, and probably even too much. But then you kind of grow into that scale because I I thought our team, I still think a little bit. Sometimes our team is maybe bloated, but ultimately we're like building the team to be a 50 million pound brand not where we are now, which is, like you know, a third of that do you think those bigger leaps only come when you build that bigger team Like?

Darren Lee:

is there any? Was there ever a scenario of you getting to that stage where you're at right now?

Matt Kelly:

on your own. Well, yeah, it's an interesting point. I think potentially, but then not sustainably, because I think I heard a founder of a brand called Gruns or Groons Anyone in the e-commerce space might have heard of that. They've grown to like 100 million, like the second year or something ridiculous in america. It's like this weird gummy brand, but anyway, that's beside the point, and he was saying they got to 20 million with just him in one person. This is in the american market, so you know, biggest scale whatever. But and his point was he thinks a lot I think he put a linkedin post out.

Matt Kelly:

It was worse to the effect of saying a lot of brands can get to that sort of scale, like basically just hustling, but then you get stuck there because you haven't invested in the team. So I think I could have got to this point with a smaller team certainly not by myself, um, but then I think we'd get stuck because it wouldn't be sustainable for me to just keep doing everything and not getting like proper people in um. And I think a lot of like e-com founders kind of like chad scale, like guys on twitter, like you know. They sort of chad scale and maybe hire like a few vas, but it's still like very reliant on them and if they died or, you know, even went away for a week, the whole business would probably crumble and I think that's probably not a great sign. And then these are also the same people that are talking about how they're shooting for like a 50 million pound exit and it's like, well, it's just not going to happen. Um, so I think, yeah, I think you can get there, but I don't think it's sustainable, to the next level probably. And I also I don't think you can exit a business that a lot of people like glorify exits and shit, and I don't necessarily think anyone even needs an exit. Like you can cashflow a business, fine, but people that talk about I'm building this brand, I want to sell it one day, blah, blah, blah.

Matt Kelly:

Like name a decent acquisition where the founder was doing everything. It doesn't exist, especially in consumer Like. If you look at brands like wild cosmetics I always refer to these guys because I've met them a few times it's like the best example of like a UK brand. They went in five years to, I think, about 70 million in revenue and sold it for 230 million to Unilever. That's like a classic consumer success story. Right and their team was like 100 people. Um, a lot of founders would probably hate that, maybe me included to some extent. But that's kind of why I brought in an MD to sort of manage a lot of that stuff, because I'm not naturally like maybe I do have myself discredit, but I don't naturally enjoy like managing a team, certain elements of it. I'd rather like do products and brand stuff.

Darren Lee:

Before we move any further, I have one short question to ask you have you been enjoying these episodes so far? Because, if you have, I would truly appreciate it if you subscribe to the channel to help more business owners grow their online business today. I guess it's your own genius, right like?

Matt Kelly:

you're a fucking super creative, weird, autistic dude yeah, and then I kind of feel like I've lost a lot of that because you ended up just having to become like a competent generalist to be. I always like say, I think I mean a lot of founders in different industries would say this about their industry but I feel like consumers like the most broad skillset. If you're especially for like a solo founder building a brand, cause you have to know product finance, supply chain, marketing, ads, website stuff, like, and I guess you're doing like most businesses online, right, but like you have to become good at everything. But yeah, I'm definitely not great at most things. I'd rather do what I did initially, which was like product brand, like the more fun stuff I guess. Um, and now I'm finally in a position where I can, I can do that and I'm not really doing any of the bullshit anymore. So I don't do any of the supply chain stuff. I basically don't touch anything like operational but even like growth wise. Now, like I'm not involved in fucking landing pages. Um, obviously I still know about all these things, but I basically have a few direct reports which might sound super corporate and like bullshit and I agree it kind of does on the outside in, but I definitely feel like the business is in a much stronger place, like machine wise, like not just the numbers, but like the ability to actually go to the next level. Um, I think a lot of founders probably never do that and invest that time because, like initially, when you hire a team, and especially like more expensive people, like it's definitely a hit to the pnl, like in the short term, because, like you, maybe, maybe your opex was fucking like five percent previously and now it's like 15 or whatever, um. But I also think a lot of people have brands that if they had a proper team, they'd realize that their unit economics don't make sense because actually, like their pnl looks good now because it's the founder working 400 hours a day yeah, so it's not sustainable anyway, um, and that that works for a lot of people, but I think it works to a certain limit. I haven't gone to 100 million yet, but I think if you want to, you have to think more about the team and also like the one benefit of.

Matt Kelly:

I made a video talking about, like raising venture money and so on, and I feel like that gets a lot of hate from people that know fucking nothing about it. And, yes, there's pros and cons? Of course there is. It's not right for everyone, but one benefit is the network I've had of meeting people that have raised money and sold businesses like.

Matt Kelly:

I've met founders of brands that sold for hundreds of millions, and the founders made you know 50 to 100 million with their slice um, and the one thing they talk about which is basically the opposite of anyone on twitter is building a team, whereas everyone on twitter talks about fucking seven day click on meta and so well, are you a media buyer or are you the founder, and I also. There's a fine line, though, because I think you do have to be super close to that stuff, but I think a lot of, and it's like well, are you a media buyer or are you the founder, and I also. There's a fine line, though, because I think you do have to be super close to that stuff, but I think a lot of people think like that's how they're going to get to like the 100 million point um, and maybe it is for some people, but the people I spoke to that actually done it. The only thing they speak about is the team it seems like a lot of your.

Darren Lee:

The way that you think about it is like it's kind of baked a lot of in a lot of reality like you seem to look at things like very like objectively, whereas the twitter bros are guys they're doing on their own. They believe that one day they'll get the 50 million exit. But it seems like that with the vcs that you've had, you've had a lot of like baked in reality numbers. It's like all right for us to get to 100 million, even in revenue, just like sales. We need to have this much throughput, this much ads, this much ltv, this much subscriptions have you? Have you kind of moved more into like a unit economics business? Right, I know that you're still like super fucking creative, but it is a mathematical equation too, oh yeah, so like I spoke about this in my video yesterday.

Matt Kelly:

I spoke to like someone I know I don't think right here they are because they've already watched this and get offended, but this comes from a good place and like they had had issues with their brand right. I spoke to like someone I know I don't want to get wet here. They are because they've already watched this and get offended, but this comes from a good place and like they had had issues with their brand right Over the past few years and and they'd like the revenue had fallen off. I had to get rid of a lot of the team and and then they told me that they'd never had a finance person in the team. And I was like, hold on, so you were doing, at one point, like 20 million in revenue and you didn't have a finance person of any sort. But yeah, I was like, well, that's probably why the business has fallen off. Um, and that's, like you know, a summary of a lot of issues. But yeah, I think, since I raised money, especially not the only reason, but it pushed me to think more about like having a financial model and actual budget and planning and stuff. I guess a bit more, whereas I think a lot of people. Chad scaling is all good and I still like love that mindset, but I don't think you can chad scale to like 50 to 100 million in revenue.

Matt Kelly:

Maybe some people can and I'm just fucking retarded and they're way smarter than me.

Matt Kelly:

I'm sure there is those cases, but yeah, I feel like a lot of founders just don't understand like the finance of the business they're trying to build.

Matt Kelly:

Enough, um, also like in terms of building like a proper financial model, we've got a really good fractional finance guy who's a fucking wizard, um, who's done all this basically. But also just like understanding everyone talks about like wanting to get an exit, but they ever spoken to an investment banker that brokers these deals and actually understood what an exit looks like? Because I speak to all these guys all the time and I'm not all the time but like I've got quite a big network of people at like investment banks and stuff that I could message and get an insight on something. And I don't mean that like if I can, oh, look at me, I've got. I mean like I've met those people because partly because I've been interested in from investors to understand the market and like the end game, I guess, because these are the sort of people that would help you actually get a transaction done, but also partly just because I'm really just interested in the market.

Darren Lee:

Um, what people are buying at what price for what reason. Yeah, I'll fucking read about acquisitions instead of watching netflix.

Matt Kelly:

I just find it interesting, um, so, yeah, I think like understanding that whole world, and also like we've got a non-exec on our board who sold a business for 300 million to nestle. So you just learn from people like that. Um, they're always way more humble than the guy on twitter that's making 50k a month as well, which is always the funny thing 50k a month of revenue yeah, the profit is actually like four there's like a general rule of rule of life that I think people should understand.

Matt Kelly:

It's like if someone talks about how rich they are all the time, they're probably not, and the opposite is also true. Um yeah, like actually successful people who've built a real business, don't go around like flexing fucking watches on twitter every five minutes do you think that?

Darren Lee:

uh, do you think the biggest thing, though, for for you looking at like an exit, is how much money you can make with the equity and the dilution that you've taken? Like, do you consider that because, like, that's obviously a big part of like? You know, like, let's say, you sold for 100 million. If you have like four percent equity left, you do get me as in like, is that a consider because, like, obviously, my background is my video yesterday.

Matt Kelly:

I mean again, I'm not saying anyone should fucking raise money, I'm not like completely depends. I went down that path. I think it's working for me. I've learned a lot. Would I do it again? Probably, but there's probably a future where I wouldn't do it again, whatever. I think every business and founder and circumstance different, so I'm not blowing that trumpet, but I think ultimately, like I guess if you raise money, it's a smaller slice for bigger pie. That's the hope. Um, that may not be true. Like you can raise money and fuck a business still, and the opposite is also true. You might bootstrap and never get to scale. So that's also shit. But yeah, I guess ultimately, like with me, I decided it felt like there was a higher chance of getting to a number that that I wanted, having gone down that route, than not. Whether that works out to be true, I can't.

Darren Lee:

I don't ultimately know, but you kind of designed the chessboard in the best way possible, though you know, to give yourself the best chance, versus just doing it on your own. Does that make sense? If you're just doing it on your own, it's like I'm kind of forever capped by my own like ability and who I'm willing to hire. But it sounds like a lot of guys that came in to help you. They they've already like set the pad ahead of you. Does that make sense? And also, they know what to do next. I know that you're like still fucking at the front of it, but my question for you is like when you went from that you know one mil a month to two mil a month or up around there, you know, did they know, like, how to get you there? That's the big thing, right? Or was it you just isn't the people I hired yeah or not, unless you're hired.

Matt Kelly:

But like the vcs, the investors, the, the guys in the network that are like, okay, this is what we've truly seen over and over again to get to that fucking 50 million dollars start good investors, like definitely don't have all the answers, but I guess they have good reference points and they've seen what's worked in businesses that have actually been successful and like had exits, not the ones that like just flex on linkedin, um, but I still think ultimately, yeah, like I probably doubted, like my own like invest.

Matt Kelly:

Yeah, investors and advisors, whatever can definitely give good input. But I still think, like you as the founder and the team have to fucking figure out, like, because the market changes, right, what worked 10 years ago, so it doesn't necessarily work now. Like basic principles are true, like how to hire good people, like you know, like roughly, what should you be doing with, like brand spend, all this shit. But just because, like an investor saw a brand that did well five years ago, doesn't necessarily mean they have all the answers for now. But yeah, I think I've had good advice, um, for the category I'm in as well, specifically. But yeah, I mean I still think like, ultimately, the founder of any business is like the key driving force, right, and the team, more than like just an investor that you maybe speak to once a month, because ultimately they're not in the business.

Darren Lee:

What was the main reason or one of the main contributing factors for you to be able to scale so fucking fast?

Matt Kelly:

well, I don't think we've scaled that fast.

Matt Kelly:

To be honest, I've got mates that have raised no money, that are way bigger than me, so there's always a bigger fish, which is the problem with knowing a lot of successful people you end up comparing up all the time, but they are in different categories or markets, whatever.

Matt Kelly:

I guess in this category, in the market at the time, yeah, it was scaled pretty quick, um, but definitely not the quickest I've seen. I mean, ultimately, what's the biggest factor? I mean, I think, like with any brand, like having a product that clicks in a market and therefore, like the acquisition unit, economics makes sense. That's basically it right because, like in e-com, to scale, like it's pretty much, how much can we afford to acquire, to spend to acquire a customer, and in our case we're consumable. So that's usually like based on your ltv to cac because, like, our cac is higher than our first order aov, right, so we're not first order profitable. A lot of people, oh, you should be whatever, but most businesses at scale aren't inumable anyway. And then ultimately being able to nail acquisition and for us that's been largely, but it's been mainly meta. Now meta is a smaller slice, but now we're doing influencers, meta, youtube, google, whatever.

Darren Lee:

Yeah, how has that been, like that kind of shift into?

Matt Kelly:

so it's mainly like ugc now as well, or well, I mean before we only spent on meta and and youtube right and google as a channel which obviously had a lot of ads and shit anyway, but now we're doing actual influencer marketing how much are you spending a month on that?

Darren Lee:

half a million fuck man pounds? How do you get?

Matt Kelly:

like maybe a bit more 600k this month I feel like you know, obviously, well, obviously for econ, but it's good for amex points, but I don't think ad spend is a flex, but it's one part of things.

Darren Lee:

I guess, but it seems like that to get into like any really big territory, a major component for a manager is ads, I feel like, whether, like whatever industry, whether it's e-com info agency, it's just like there's only well, it's that condition right, whether that's organic or paid.

Matt Kelly:

But like ultimately, I think, in consumer, the large part of it has to be paid yeah, is there any way you could avoid that for ecom, though right is there.

Darren Lee:

Any way. You could have like a huge like like a nick bear having his brand.

Matt Kelly:

Yeah, I think the only real way to do that is to be a fucking borderline celebrity. Yeah, and even then those brands run ads and it's maybe not the start, but it's also going to reach a plateau right, yeah, like, yeah, I'd love to have a you know, 2 million followers like Nick bear or whatever he has, but I don't, um, at least not right now. And yeah, it was a thing, like I mean, those sort of brands are great but it's very reliant on the founder right being the face.

Darren Lee:

I mean, maybe I'm just, yeah, maybe I'm just jealous because I'm not a massive fucking influencer that doesn't need to run ads, but but have you ever heard of Daniel Priestley's angle on this which is like if it is a founder-led brand in the beginning, or even to exit, like it's still more valuable than like just trying to like fucking hack it together without? So like, I guess I can't explain that badly. But basically, if the l, if the cac is super fucking high or the opportunity is like you have a founder-led brand and the cac is lower, it's like someone who's going to buy it would actually preference the founder-led one, not always, but maybe in the beginning when it's growing. So it's like there's nothing, there's no real detriment, at least in the beginning, to the brand.

Matt Kelly:

Yeah, no, I agree. I think, like the way I've heard it spoken about um, like there's a brand called tallow and ash, then if you've seen them, they're like they're blown up in the uk. I've met those guys a few times. They actually have the same investor as me. They're fucking bigger than us, by the way, and I'm very jealous. That category is also the category that my mate's brand is in in fucking um, the Dutch market. So, yeah, like cleaning and fucking like modern and premium cleaning stuff is a banging category right now for anyone watching um.

Matt Kelly:

But they were talking about this at this AGM we did in in summer and I was asking her like she's one of the founders, she's like the face of the brand, and one of the questions was like oh, how do you think that developed over time? And like the short summary was and this was an opinion shared by others as well as like found, the founder is probably more likely to be the face at the start, maybe to like 20 million in revenue and then, over time, like the brand community and the brand has more of a life of its own because the founder could be involved but probably won't be like the only face forever. Um, there's probably exceptions to that. I mean, like nick bear's probably a good example. He, like probably is more involved than a lot of founders, um, but then there's also brands. Like you know, gymshark's a good example, like everyone knows the founder, but it's not like the brand's not about him at this point did he sell it?

Darren Lee:

Did he sell his equity, or am I imagining things?

Matt Kelly:

No, they did a PE deal, like four years ago when the other founder sold out.

Darren Lee:

So when Ben Francis took a step out, or is he still? No? No, Ben Francis is still in.

Matt Kelly:

Oh, okay, I thought he sold for like a hundred million.

Darren Lee:

I thought he took a step back too, but okay, nevermind.

Matt Kelly:

Don Hewitt, the CEO, the ex-CEO about a month ago. He's an interesting guy. He made like more money than most founders and he wasn't even a founder. So that just proves how big that business was. But yeah, anyway, what was I saying? I mean, yeah, I think founder-led.

Matt Kelly:

I think founder-led is probably an advantage for most brands these days, even just because, like it gives you like something to talk about in ads. I mean, mean, I feature in like some of our stuff. But I wouldn't say we're like a founder-led brand because, partly because the customer base isn't really like it's not just me, it's more like 35 plus women, and also I've just chosen not to go down that route. I don't want to be like entirely attached, um, but yeah, I've seen it work both ways right, like again coming back to wild. But this is a good example because they made a lot of money. Like the founders were not remotely the face of that brand, but they made fucking money, um. So you don't have to be like a fucking influencer to run a brand. You can also just be a really good operator and bring in the right people that can do those bits you mentioned.

Darren Lee:

Like community as well, though do is community tough to build in fucking consumer products?

Matt Kelly:

yeah, I feel like I'm definitely having nailed that I mean but who really cares about?

Darren Lee:

like you know, it's not.

Matt Kelly:

Yeah, a bit of me thinks like community is just a fluffy bullshit term that people use as an excuse to like host running events that make no money. Um, but having said that, I do think community is probably how you start to build a bit more of a cult audience, like. One brand that's great at this is Pure Sport in London. I know the founder of that brand. He's also got the same investors as us now and we were like joking that we're like the opposite because we were like a performance marketing only brand, but now we're trying to be a bit more like we're doing like events and shit, and they were the opposite. They did a fuckload of run clubs. They basically invented the run club thing, but they were doing no performance marketing and we were like three times bigger than them and it was like, oh yeah, like we just never really invested in acquisition and my, my attitude was how the fuck can you grow a brand if, like, all you're doing is run clubs because they've gone like deep but not very wide, whereas I guess you could think about like we'd gone wider but maybe not very deep with, like, a lot of our customers? Um, but having said that, I still think the best way to build community is just get customers.

Matt Kelly:

Um, the one thing that I always find interesting there's a lot of new brands that pop up, especially like sort of London consumer scene. I'm gonna name no names here, but there's a few that come into mind and they're really good at and I've met some of these founders. I've said this to their face but like they're really fucking good at all the foundry content, like the cool, quirky stuff, like I don't know. Maybe they they wrap a fucking Range Rover in their logo and everyone loves it on LinkedIn. Maybe they get some like organic press. And then you find out the numbers and it's like oh, that's 10% of what we did just for paid ads in the first six months. And then it's like what you're trying to optimize for? You try to optimize looking cool on linkedin, you try to optimize for actually growing the business and they're not always mutually exclusive, but it feels like often in the early stages with certain founders they are and I think that comes from a place of and I'm not bashing that entirely, because I think a lot of that is valuable but I think when combined with performance marketing and again it's kind of the opposite route we've taken. So now we're trying to do more of that and they probably need to do performance marketing, but I think a lot of it.

Matt Kelly:

I would argue that just getting customers matters more than fucking doing really sick like events and stuff at the start. That's just my view, um, but I think a lot of founders probably care too much about like running a cool brand versus running like, and again, it kind of depends what your goal is. You want to build a lifestyle brand that you do purely for creative purposes. And I spoke to a fan of the other week about this, a guy I've got to know on, like, I guess, the internet. I never met him, but he's got a cool brand.

Matt Kelly:

That's like much earlier stage. Now he's trying to raise money and I said to him why are you trying to raise money? Because he was very much like I want to do this for like 20 years. I was like, oh, we shouldn't raise money then because they want to sell it in five years and you're going to have loads of, I guess, like corporate pressure.

Matt Kelly:

And again, there's no like right or wrong, but it's just being like honest with yourself, like why are you in this game like, do you want to run like? Are you like the artistic guy that just wants to spend all day like designing products and doing sick content and you'd be happy if you got to 3 million revenue and stayed there for 10 years, and that's probably better route for most people. Or do you want to build a category leader, scale it as hard as you can and hopefully make 50 million quid, and there's a lot of routes that are in between that or whatever. But like, yeah, and you don't necessarily have to know that up front, but I think when you go down the route of like trying to raise money from investors, you probably want to be aware of the realities of that, which is what I said to this guy, and he was a bit like, oh yeah, haven't you thought about that?

Matt Kelly:

Um, and I like definitely want to build a sick brand. I think we're doing that, but I've also I've always come at it from like I guess trying to be a bit more commercial with it, like, which is often the dichotomy of scaling, because, like sometimes the shit that I think would be really cool and there's loads of things I think would be really cool I just know they make no financial sense. I don't do them, um, so then you end up with a brand that I think our brand is cool. But do I think it's as cool as when I launched it and it was like a bit more, I guess, design led rather than performance? That probably not. Um, we are now doing a brand refresh which I think hopefully gets the balance right again about being a bit more edgy again, I guess. Um, but that might backfire and like ultimately would I rather it look cool and be smaller, or look slightly less cool but be bigger. Probably that one.

Darren Lee:

Pushing the boundaries less because you need to hit mass market. Yeah, exactly Cause if you look at a lot of again, like Gymshark.

Matt Kelly:

I mean, it's just an easy example, so I'm using it. But like when they launched they were like hardcore bodybuilding, brand Right, and I don't know the founders at all, but like I imagine that probably felt more natural to them and it was like them and their bros in the gym and it was sick. And now you could argue it's kind of a bit vanilla, like, it's kind of for everyone a bit more inclusive. They don't really do the hardcore bodybuilding stuff, although I think they've kind of come back to doing that now as part of it because they got a bit backlash. But the point is it's to go big. Sometimes you have to be a bit more mass market and by default that's sometimes like less cool, exactly yeah. So I, yeah, I kind of think about that a lot because like yeah, is it a good decision because I think it's cool, or is it a good decision because it's actually going to grow the business?

Darren Lee:

are you an agency owner, coach or consultant looking to scale your online business at folks? We help business owners scale their online business with content. We help them specifically build a high ticket offer, create content that turns into clients and also help them with the sales process to make sure every single call that's booked in your calendar turns into a client. If you want to see more about exactly how we do this, hit the first link down below and watch a full free training on how smart entrepreneurs are building a business in 2025. I'm curious, like from your observations. You've obviously worked a lot of people as well, just like a lot of your friends or people. You've seen how profitable can you have an econ brand that's like, let's say, like one to three million a year if you compare it to like Infor agency, where, like you could literally have seven.

Darren Lee:

But like you're not really making that much money, like, do you get me?

Matt Kelly:

Yeah, I think there's take home profit. There's a few things on that I think the first thing is like generally regardless, like a good econ brand might be 10 to 20 profit, like at any scale. Like if you look at gymshark they're like fucking three percent profit last year but what I mean is they're so fucking big.

Matt Kelly:

They're like three percent of 100 million my next point is so even if you're super let's say you're 30 percent ebitda profit at you know three million okay, so you're making a million, a quid, a year. But e-com is a physical product business. So firstly, you're reinvesting all of that into stock to grow and even then you probably need a fucking credit line from like way far here or the bank or something, because the cash requirements for any business in e-com, especially at the start, are pretty aggressive. Secondly, any money you do make, even if you can pull some out like, you're probably better off just keeping it in the business. I mean a for tax reasons, but b because unless you're at the point where there's like millions on the balance sheet, you probably shouldn't be pulling out money anyway really, other than like maybe a salary and then. So that's the two things I think basically like yeah, there's. I think people misunderstand like how illiquid econ brands are for like at least the first few years so it's not really a lifestyle.

Darren Lee:

It's not really a lifestyle business, though.

Matt Kelly:

That's the thing it's not like at all, I think. I think info and agency are way better business models for 99 of people but just for making like actual money.

Darren Lee:

Like there's a guy I know literally here quite well who's been doing kind of an all-weather brand but, he's been battling it for like 10 years. He's literally been battling it for 10 years and I just met him recently and he's a guy man I'm building a brand to like fucking move into from it you know, he's just been feeling that pressure.

Matt Kelly:

E-com is the hardest business in the world, like physical products way worse than like anything.

Darren Lee:

I'll leave it at I think agency is easier.

Matt Kelly:

I think info is easier I think primarily because there's no physical product yeah, I think software is easier, especially with like ai yeah I think it's actually technically easier because it's I'm sure it's harder in other ways, but when you remove like just physical fucking products from the equation, it probably gets a bit simpler. So my view is like and they speak a bit about this a lot on like the operators pod for anyone that knows that with like sean from ridge and stuff and he has quite a similar attitude to me um, like you shouldn't do ecom unless you genuinely like like physical products and don't do ecom. And like ecom is like a funny term because, like people say, ecom is like well, kind of just like building brands and like drop shipping is maybe a bit different so that you can definitely build a slightly better cash flow vehicle from that because you're not buying stock and stuff. But that has its own problems. But like e-com in general with like physical products it's not. I don't think you should do that purely if you want to make certainly like short to mid-term money.

Matt Kelly:

Having said that, I think there's if you build the right consumer brand using wild as an example again, like you know, those founders made 150 million plus like between them there's two of them because you know they had investors and stuff. But you can make fucking money if you build a great brand but, like with a lot of things you know, that's the top, it's the top. 0.001 the same in info right, like something like 50 million quid a year, but the vast majority probably make 100k a year. True, it's just the margins are way higher. I think there's less risk in stuff like info. Yeah, I often think like maybe I should have just gone into like being a full-time fucking guru when my last business failed and I started the YouTube channel.

Matt Kelly:

But I just wanted to build a brand and like yeah, I think 99% of people in info are making more money than me.

Matt Kelly:

In the short term, for sure, of course, but I believe, in the next few years, with the right brand and getting a deal done, I think you can surpass them. But again it just yeah. That's a long way of saying I don't think ecom is the best path for like founder liquidity in the short to midterm, if ever, for a lot of people what's your thoughts on a high ticket drop shipping like fucking saunas for 20k? I think it's pretty genius. Yeah, um, who's that guy that does that guy called?

Darren Lee:

brooke. Is it brooke? Sorry?

Matt Kelly:

yeah, I know brooke very well I know he did that, he he taught that in his info stuff dude they're doing.

Darren Lee:

Uh, I didn't look four million a month in info really and they have like, they have like the info for teaching how to do shiny object syndrome.

Matt Kelly:

This is the problem.

Darren Lee:

But what's funny was like like brooke's super screwed on right, like they have a huge team and they have 30 to 40 people and then they have one to two software companies that does like supplier research and shit, so they're all using that. They're pro scaling the shit out of the info. It's in around that three to four mark roughly yeah, roughly, they're trying to get up to four. I'll go back to my podcast in January with them to just think about it, to hear about it. But yeah, it's in around that range.

Matt Kelly:

And again I hear that I'm in the wrong industry. I should just do fucking info.

Darren Lee:

But again the thing is that, like what we discussed before was like in general, you're not, you, you're not going to get a huge multiple of that.

Matt Kelly:

You know, even like you can sell, I guess you don't need to, though, right, if you're making 10 million quid profit a year doing info, yeah, which is obviously rare but doable Do that for a few years. You've got your exit.

Darren Lee:

I remember the mindset or like the kind of shift and reframe for agencies and info was like you want to be making an exit, getting an exit every single year, right for the most part, and then like just cash. But then like, like full transparency, man, like you can sell an agency, like, as in I know several brokers and actually, funny enough, acquire no micro acquire. They've actually moved into selling agencies too and selling info, so you can sell an info business on acquirecom. They never said that, but it's on the landing page. They pivoted towards it. Now, bro, like full transparency, that the multiple is going to be like one X revenue, like literally one X revenue, one to two, that's it.

Darren Lee:

But if you're on the way out and like a lot of guys are just fucking burnt out, that it's like all right. It's kind of like a hot potato. I'm just like done. I'm just kind of done. I'm just kind of off lifted. Things are a little bit different than what they used to be. Obviously, the twitter bros are you can't sell it. But it's like if you wanted to offload it, especially the private equity, you could probably just fucking get rid of it. There is a bit of that, you know. So, with your like situation now with the products and so on. I remember when we last spoke you were going like with multiple SKUs and shit, but then you were kind of saying that that was a bad idea. And then you were thinking and now you've kind of gone a bit broader again like how do you think about how you're going to actually really hit those huge numbers?

Matt Kelly:

yeah, I think there's basically three ways to scale an e-commerce business, product channel and market, so like products, obviously, doing your product channel, I mean like going into retail, going into amazon, both of which we've done and are doing more of and then marketers.

Darren Lee:

How does that feel? By the way, when you went into Holland and Barrett, that was pretty cool, I mean that was like two years ago, I mean yeah retail has grown a lot.

Matt Kelly:

Retail is. I think you need to be in retail in consumer brands, especially like consumable stuff how does the economics for that work?

Darren Lee:

so like you fucking fucking offloaded to harlem and barrett like how do you? Because they're always doing sales and shit, right, this is probably such a novice question.

Matt Kelly:

I mean the economics in retail are way better than d2c for us currently, but that's because we have a d2c product that's selling well in retail. If you were doing, say, a canned drink, the margins would be fucking awful, but it's a, it's a volume play at that point. So, yeah, currently, like the margins, retail are miles better than d2c. But d2c is what drives retail, because the d2c eyeballs is the marketing machine. So it's not really like fair to look at them in isolation. But yeah, like retail right now is like 10 percent of revenue, but I think eventually I want it to be 50, 60 percent and with the new well, the, the next step of like products I'm doing I think that I think that is realistic. Um, yeah, we've got a few like retail specific products coming in and also I guess this is like ultimately thinking a bit like reverse engineering. Like how do we like sell this business one day and buyers at any, any big scale like you need to be? You know omni-channel, which you know means d2c and retail, at the very least, probably amazon as well. But retail is more important.

Matt Kelly:

Like, if you look at all of the big acquisitions in the american market, like the past year they were all all the energy drink acquisitions. So well, not energy drink, but just like canned drinks in general. There was that alani new brand I think sold for like a billion to celsius and that wasn't, I guess I say it wasn't a big brand, it was like 300 million rev, but like in america, that's just like distribution normal. Yeah, there was um. Who's the one ghost they sold um to gonna get it wrong. They sold to one of those. I think it was like two billion ghost was christian guzman, right? Well, he was one of the faces, not the founder interesting ghost.

Matt Kelly:

I don't know the exact details, don't quote me, but they used to do like fucking protein powders and shit. Then they did a deal with some beverage company might have even been pepsi or something um and then they went into energy drinks, which is when it just exploded still like 600 million revenue. The american market is just different, especially in retail. Then there was poppy, which is that it just exploded. It's doing like 600 million revenue. The American market is just different, especially in retail. Then there was Poppy, which is that prebiotic soda that sold for 1.9 billion to Pepsi a few months ago.

Matt Kelly:

So, yeah, so why don't you? That's the kind of scale you can reach, especially in America, in retail, with especially like canned drinks, which we may or may not be going into soon. D or may not be going into soon.

Darren Lee:

Dumb question, but why not just put?

Matt Kelly:

the focus on America. Yeah well, it's not a dumb question. It's a question I've asked myself for a while. I think there's some nuance to that that a lot of like Twitter bros again don't quite understand, because it's never actually scaled a business to just say, oh, I'm dropshipping in America. I mean, the honest answer is, I kind of wish I'd launched in. Competitors are there, like all the functional categories, way bigger, they're way more established. But having said that, we are doing america soon, by the way, but I didn't launch with it. Maybe I'll regret that for the rest of my life.

Matt Kelly:

I think there's something to be said for being number one in a smaller market versus being number seven in a bigger market, especially like again like it's not all about selling the business, but I think that sort of stuff definitely helps. It's better to go deeper and own the uk market than be number seven in america. Not saying that it would be the case, but that is a factor. I think. The other thing is obviously it's uneconomics, like fundamentally, scaling comes down to cac. Cac will be two to three times higher in america. The ltv might also be two three higher, but it's a different margin profile. So we'd have to figure out that that works. We just haven't we literally haven't run an American ad. So it would be the like I'll just spend money for a month and see if it makes sense.

Darren Lee:

Could you find an American supplier?

Matt Kelly:

Yeah, we already have like an American supplier that we're kind of tearing this up with and I think the main thing is just having product there. But, and I think, the main thing is just having product there, but you can do that with a 3pm in like a week, so it's pretty simple. We just haven't done it as like a focus thing.

Darren Lee:

Sorry, why would the CAC be higher?

Matt Kelly:

Like if you got a right, you know it's a much bigger market and it's way more competitive and fundamentally, cpms are higher. So it might not be, but I would bet like 90% Cac will be significantly higher than the uk. Interesting, it's just a more expensive market, everything's more expensive, but, like I said, like spending power is way higher as well yeah, yeah so it just basically changes the whole economics of the business.

Darren Lee:

I mean, if cac was twice as high but ltv was also twice as high, then that's fine but shouldn't you look at it more from a percentage basis than a number basis, because of if you're spending more money but if the percentage, like the margin, is still solid because LTV is high?

Matt Kelly:

Yeah, exactly, you just you don't know until you've really run the business for a year, especially in like a subscription business, you get a pretty good idea pretty soon. The other benefit obviously is just the fucking market's way bigger. So I've got a friend who's got a brand I've got too many fucking friends at scaling so I genuinely always feel stupid but he's doing like nine million a month for the brand that's like a year old in America. And he said to me and I think he genuinely meant it he said like the numbers we're doing in the UK and way more impressive like relatively but is it your and he's like?

Matt Kelly:

and he said well, and that said, what you should do America, because I don't know, a 10 million pound brand in the UK is probably like a 50 million pound brand in America, just purely based on scale, like you could do the whole of Europe, I think econ wise is smaller than America but it's not the story of Reebok, right?

Darren Lee:

this is Reebok story 101. They were like in the UK?

Matt Kelly:

I don't know. It's alright to be fair.

Darren Lee:

I actually have a podcast with Joel Foster the founder. They were in the UK and they were just kind of fucking figuring it out. They were putting the shoes together like Birmingham or somewhere shit like that. And then they went to America, found a load of hot chicks in LA, literally gave them the shoes and just blew the fuck up. He was doing influencer marketing in the 60s and 70s.

Darren Lee:

He would just find hot chicks, put them on the ASICs fucking catalog and you just see a bunch of like 10s wearing ASICs, wearing Reeboks Not the ASICs catalog, but it was the run, it was American Runners catalog and it was just yeah, like that was literally the kind of mental model.

Darren Lee:

Now, obviously, I know this is like fucking 60 years ago, but what I'm trying to say is like but what I'm trying to say is like the product's obviously good and you can obviously fucking figure it out, as well as an app out of it too, which is like maybe it's just like a the way to get more revenue not necessarily more profit, but maybe just like more revenue?

Matt Kelly:

yeah, definitely, I've thought about it a lot. I think now is a better time to do that. But yeah, arguably I should have just launched a business in America from day one. So when I do the next brand, eventually I'll probably just do that.

Darren Lee:

It's funny because, like we had an ads guy who got rid of them, but with the ad nerds, like they have a lot of issues in America for ads because they're like, oh, it's too big. You know, you mentioned it's so big. So the feedback that they get, that I was getting about our ads, was oh, you just, you just miss a lot of people in america so it's like you're, when you're really hitting, like miami new york yeah la scottsdale.

Darren Lee:

Yeah, and that's it kind of like it. I don't know, it's just like this huge, just I don't know, it's the same with everything. Right, you just have to fucking do it just do it spend the money and then be like okay.

Matt Kelly:

So yeah, we haven't done it yet but, I, definitely want to do it. So nice man, maybe I'm just an idiot, definitely not, but it's coming soon?

Darren Lee:

definitely, definitely not. At the very start of the conversation you said about the, the mindset change. You spent half a million a month on ads, like how did you get comfortable with just like? How did you develop as a person to do that right, because it's not like you have to change, obviously to make those quantum leaps too, because you're the fucking founder right, you got to be careful, you got to be able to handle the extra level of pressure.

Matt Kelly:

Yeah, well, I think on on like scale and spend. Obviously, you just do it gradually, right. You go from spending 10 grand a month to spending more and hopefully we'll spend five million a month eventually, um, purely because of amex points. That'd be quite nice, wouldn't it? Um, yeah, I think I don't know really, I still feel like I don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm just kind of winging it and maybe more willing to admit that than most people. Um, but I obviously do know what I'm doing. I just like genuinely adopt that mindset. I'm always a beginner.

Matt Kelly:

Um, yeah, I think the main shift in like the last year at least, which I mentioned at the start, was maybe just, I think I spent way too long like focusing on like little bullshit. That wasn't like high leverage and like it's kind of obvious. But I think a lot of founders, and definitely me included, like you glorify the trenches of oh, I'm working 18 hours a day and you're actually not working 18 hours a day. When people say that, they mean like they're working 13 hours a day, but anyway, it's beside the point and like almost I was definitely in that space of like oh, this is like, if it's not hard, I'm, if I'm not hating it. I'm not fucking like doing enough, but then it's like you create leverage leverage through people and like money, basically. So you could argue now I'm doing way more like through people, but I'm personally probably working a little less but working on more important things, I guess.

Matt Kelly:

So, like what's a good example? I mean like someone could. I mean like even I did a call with someone like the other week, actually like consulting call, and he was doing decent numbers and he was like I'm spending all my time like dealing with customer service and shit. I was like what the fuck are you dealing with customer service? You're doing like 600k months. It wasn't like a small, like tiny business and I was like you could spend a week or even a month finding a really good person just to manage all that shit and then never look at it again and it's like, oh yeah, I haven't thought of that. I was like I'm not a genius, but that to me feels quite obvious. Um, so yeah, I guess that's probably like been the main thing is like just learning how to build leverage through hiring decent people, right, and then letting them run with it. Um, and that definitely took me a while to get my head around, because even when I started hiring people, more people, and like proper people, not just like fucking VAs that this kind of sounds bad, but like VAs that probably you know could only do like what they're told, and now I'm hiring people that like tell me what we're doing, which is obviously better. But even when I started hiring people like that, I definitely had a tendency to micromanage or want to want to be involved in everything. So if I don't feel, sometimes I feel like, ah, like I'm not doing enough today, I'm not like replying to enough slack messages. But then it's like, well, I've hired this MD to run the business. He tells me like please, like just take a week off. And I'm like, ah, fuck, I could actually do that. But, um, so, yeah, I guess I'm trying to focus on like higher leverage stuff, and it obviously seems obvious, but I think so many people get stuck and they never actually change. They're like still just grinding so much and all the little stuff. Um, so I think, yeah, a benefit of at least like.

Matt Kelly:

From my perspective, one benefit of like having investor pressure is that it's forced me to professionalize sooner, which has then, like made me bring in more people, which at the start seemed like, oh, I don't need all these people, I just want to like run it myself with like my two, two original hires, and like we'll just be a super lean team. But then how's that? That's not going to be sustainable, um, to get to like a really big scale. So I kind of just fully accepted that my role is going to change and I'll probably be really shit at it for a while because I'm like I'm so used to like doing everything, not like in the last year, but like doing everything like the first year or so and then doing like a lot of things, but now it's like I don't really don't really do anything executional. Um, yeah, it is good.

Matt Kelly:

I'm like obviously trying to do figure out what I should. I say I mean, I'm still like I'm not trying to focus more like product stuff, but even then it's like I'll come up with the idea and then give it to someone to make it happen, which in itself is quite hard anyway, because then you become more of like learning how to manage people. Like I just hired this like founder coach person who's like a leadership coach or whatever, which to me I'm like so cynical of all this stuff. But I'm like finally, like I don't know my brain's finally mature to the fact that that stuff actually is important. I've literally only decided working with them, what's he having with them? Well, they're a lady. What is she having with them? Did you say he? I don't know what you said. Yeah, well, yeah, I guess trying to figure out Probably like how to manage a team.

Darren Lee:

Why do you think you struggle with that?

Matt Kelly:

Because I always feel a bit alien with, like people that aren't founders. It sounds ridiculous. I mean, I've said this to my own, to my own team members, but I've never had a normal job ever. Well, I like worked in bars and shit, but I never like a full time, proper job and I basically only ever like hung around with like founder types, which has pros and cons. But then you obviously start building a team and like, by definition, those people are not founders.

Matt Kelly:

So I think, learning how to get the most out of people that ultimately, while they definitely care, they don't have the same incentives as you as the founder and yeah, you can give people equity and stuff, but like ultimately they're not.

Matt Kelly:

They're not going to make tens of millions if the business sells right and that's fine, but like so by default they're probably going to be slightly less emotionally invested, but they're also people are driven by different things, like they want to do a great job and have purpose, but they also want to have their fucking weekends and stuff, and like I naturally I guess I'm not used to that.

Matt Kelly:

But learning how to get the most out of people and not alienate everyone by being like how do you the thing I struggle with most actually is how do you keep the founder like intensity and like startup intensity while also not like alienating everyone that isn't ultimately a founder and probably isn't used to that level of like OCD and speed and you don't want to like fully lose that. But you also have to recognize that it's not like a day one scrappy startup anymore. You want to keep a lot of that energy for sure, like I don't want to become fucking corporate and slow, like we're still only 15 people, we're still tiny in the grand scheme of things. But yeah, I'm trying to figure that out basically.

Darren Lee:

I guess, like it's looking at what actually motivates people. What do they want, though? What do they actually want? They could just be happy to be around you, right? And this is a big thing where you're like the leader who actually coaches them and gives them like that's, it's a fucking young guy, he's like 19, he's like well, it was math that changed my life when I wanted to get into this space, and now, five years later, looking back, and they're like yeah, I learned that, so I learned so much from being in space goods.

Darren Lee:

I think, like that is more valuable than the salary you can give them, and that's a huge part for me, by the way is like the guys want to be around, they want to learn, and they actually want to fucking learn, not just like learn bullshit, but they're like oh, this is how like a business works, this is how you get clients, this is how you get customers, so you retain them. I think that's more valuable than the money you can give them, because you don't even give them so much money, right? Yeah, the execution layer of tasks.

Matt Kelly:

Yeah, I agree, I think I've definitely gone down the path of hiring quite an expensive team Just because we've based the team in London, I guess. Just because we've based the team in London, I guess, which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing. But yeah, I think people yeah, I mean like I think how do I say I'm trying to say without saying the wrong thing I think people in my team definitely value money, but I think they also value like being involved in a fast growth startup where they actually get to like own stuff. Like I say to anyone that hire like if you want to be like a cog in a machine like this isn't going to work. Um, we need people that can like own their section of the business.

Matt Kelly:

It's also thing like, especially like a small team. Like there should be no fucking like middle management or any of this shit. There's obviously like some like seniority, like I've got a head of growth that manages a team of like seven people in the growth team that reporting to him, etc. But I'm not into all this. Oh, it's not in my job description so I won't do it because I I'm not saying there's anyone on the team that's like that, but I've had people in the past that were like that and it didn't work out that's fucking huge man.

Darren Lee:

It's it's ability to figure.

Matt Kelly:

It's like such a corporate mindset. You know it's like hold on now. Like it's a startup business, like yeah, it could live or die in the next like few months, based on what we do.

Darren Lee:

So it's not fucking pwc grad scheme and also you don't know what they need to do to get me. Sometimes it's like, yeah, we're, we're going into america, we know we have like this pillar, this pillar, this pillar, but at the same time, no one fucking knows what's going to happen yeah, I almost think like job titles and startups are like borderline pointless.

Matt Kelly:

So obviously you have to have like that's a b1. But like there's someone on our team who's shit hot at her job, doing like a watch, I'll just I'll just say what a job is. So she's a creative strategist I don't sure watch this, but I think she's like really good, but now she's doing stuff. She was hired ultimately to like run our ad production, I guess, but now she's doing stuff that's like way beyond that. Like fucking, she's involved in like the brand refresh.

Matt Kelly:

She's doing a lot of like website stuff, um, but she's just really stepped up to it and she probably deserves like a fucking pay rise at some point. But, um, because she's stepped up so much, but yeah, like that's an example. Like every job is, it's going to involve stuff that maybe wasn't initially expected, but for the right person, that that should be why I think working like a startup or scale up people need to realize how different that's going to be to like working in a big corporate, say like a pwc or any of these, and they're usually quite different people, um, wildly yeah wildly.

Darren Lee:

I think, um, a good way to kind of frame it, though, is like you want to hold on to those people that are killers, because you've probably seen this in e-com I've definitely seen this and just like the fucking online business space, that a lot of these guys who are supposedly doing good numbers, they're shit people. People, you know, taking care of people, they're just generally shit. Like I know a lot of people who are like big creators and like I would never work with them. They just they just can't manage people, so I think a part of like your evolution is just like you getting better at managing people, because you're like all right, I think it's a skill, like anything else, but I feel like a lot of I'm not very good at it.

Darren Lee:

Yeah, creators, fucking founder people, they don't, they don't do that. That's why they're like solopreneurs and like.

Darren Lee:

That's where the solopreneur thing really kind of picked up was, because it was like oh, I can be this like in cell introvert yeah and just bring in a VA from the Philippines I call it a $4 a day VA and it's like why is my business not going? It's growing. It's like, bro, you literally spend. They don't even have a fucking computer. Bro, you know, they're in Manila with no computer in a cave it is different, like kind of it's just different objectives big time, you know yeah, I think, yeah, a big part of big time.

Matt Kelly:

You know, yeah, I think, yeah, a big part of managing people is.

Matt Kelly:

Just, I'm not really good at it yet, but I think being able to give feedback, and give like constructive or negative feedback, is actually quite hard like I think, a lot of people like even like when I first had to like fire someone, I was so nervous just like five years ago or something but different business, but even that like I'm not saying you should want to get better at that, but well, I guess you should actually. But like hopefully it's not that common because you should be getting the hires right, but there's always gonna be a bit of that, I think. Learning how to give feedback without you know making it personal or whatever, um, and also just be clear on, like what people should be doing. Often something can be solved by just having a conversation about it.

Darren Lee:

Tell me more about the decision to the idea of like leaving the UK. Do you think? I was back in the UK for a podcast in May and, like you know, there's lots of different opinions of the UK. Like what was your kind of observation going through some of those heavier periods the winter periods in the past couple of months?

Matt Kelly:

Yeah, how do I share my opinions without getting cancelled?

Darren Lee:

I saw that it was your girlfriend got robbed yeah.

Matt Kelly:

Bro, I think I think firstly, like with anything like, there's a lot of nuance to stuff, so there's never black and white, nothing, ever is. The thing that frustrates me about topics like this is you see, someone will post on LinkedIn that they've moved to Dubai and the comments are all just, oh, you're a horrible person, or oh, you're running away, you don't want to pay tax or whatever, and not just Dubai, like anything.

Matt Kelly:

People get really illogical when it comes to like emotional topics, like are what their country is being perceived as. I think, yeah, I've lived in London for like six years and I've always traveled a lot. I've always been quite nomadic but I've like officially lived there, right. Um, I think the thing a lot of people and I agree with it, it's not just tax I think I feel like the quality of life on offer in the UK, and especially London, is not very good, pound for pound. That's fundamentally the truth and I think if you can change that, like I can, and still be effective, if not more effective in the business, then you should do that. Yeah, I guess that's fundamentally where it stems from. I mean for me, yeah, I guess that's fundamentally where it stems from. I mean for me, like weather is a big part of things probably not acknowledge that enough, like I definitely. Like I struggled a lot with my mental health and stuff and still do, but like it's significantly better when I'm in a just a sunny place. Like to some people that might sound ridiculous, but I know my biology now to know that if I feel shit because it's pissing, rain and dark all the time, I'm not going to be creative. My output in the business is going to be worse. I'm going to take it out on the team, probably.

Matt Kelly:

I'm my girlfriend. I'm not going to train as hard. I'm probably going to eat worse, because lack of sunlight literally makes you hungrier. That's a fact, um, and it just for me, it feels like a downward spiral, like, and I also just think your environment defines your ability to like produce anything work-wise, like, more than anything. So that's where, like, my decision to leave basically has come from. Um, I'll probably end up spending like half my time there, maybe, but I'll figure that one out. But, yeah, I think there's a lot of, there's a few problems, I think, with the uk now, and I find it really strange that people can't acknowledge them and it's almost considered controversial to like say the quiet part out loud um, yeah, I think for me like weather's a big one and just like the general quality of life.

Matt Kelly:

That's probably like the main one, pound for pound quality of life. Similar to Ireland? Yeah, I think, very similar. The tax incentives, especially for founders, has become not very good. What's? The rule like even getting rid of things like entrepreneurs relief, like it's getting. That's been changed to the point where it basically doesn't exist anymore wasn't there a rule they're trying to bring in?

Darren Lee:

I'm not too sure. Is it approved of? If you've lived there in the past five years, you're still taxable I've done that to be honest yeah, I just saw it recently it was like a daniel priest actually shared.

Matt Kelly:

It was like they're trying to yeah, he's right about a lot of this stuff and I agree with 90 of what he says yeah, he's very heavy on politics and I like really pushing it yeah, he's doing it from a better perspective, though, in terms of like to actually help britain because it is fucked right.

Matt Kelly:

It feels to me and it's a sweeping statement there's obviously nuance and you can't generalize, but it feels to me like the uk has become less entrepreneurial and that is not appealing to me because I just think whoever's actually running the country just doesn't make doesn't make very logical decisions. Um, and smes are like basically the backbone of the fucking entire economy, which people seem to forget. Um, like, most of the jobs exist because ultimately, a founder or founders or whatever created a business. Um, like, the whole, the whole country is not the, the fucking public sector. Um, yeah, I think there's obviously like political issues with like lack of safety.

Darren Lee:

Um, maybe that's not the right way to describe, but like, um, I think london has got a real like crime problem like genuinely yeah like you feel that though, when you were there, because that's the big thing from like media is that people say well, when you're there you don't feel it as much. I know your girlfriend got robbed.

Matt Kelly:

I never felt unsafe in london really because I always lived in nice places and I think I'm pretty streetwise and whatever like. But yeah, you see all the time and like I don't know the stats, but there's a lot of knife crime in london. There's a shitload of like iphone robberies and yeah, you get that in a lot of places.

Darren Lee:

Um, I guess you don't get it in dubai, which is why it's appealing to a lot of people, especially like families and shit but if you think about it, man, for you to move to dubai or for me to get set up here, like it, actually it takes a lot of stuff. You gotta open up bank accounts, you gotta get the right documentation, everything, and it's a long fucking process.

Darren Lee:

Like dubai actually isn't that straightforward like, especially when you're running your business from dubai, because you have like, uh, the, the currency gets based in dirhams yeah, you got to convert to usd and there's there is a few issues with it, but what I'm trying to say is, like the people that do it properly, it's fucking tough. So that's why it's very strange to me how a lot of that's just been let go and they're like, oh yeah, fine, let's like sweep under the rug that are coming in so like illegally. It's just an interesting observation because, like I've seen people like yourself or anyone who's fucking remotely has two dollars for their name, just like let's get the fuck out here, because it's also not the best place to actually grow a business. If you're trying to like minimize your overheads and if you're in a super scrappy stage or you're trying to go big as well, yeah, I think I still think london is like in many ways, a great city and I fucking love it, especially in summer.

Matt Kelly:

I just don't think it's the best place for me to be, a hundred percent of the time.

Darren Lee:

Yeah, man, that's a huge. It's a big change, but I didn't actually expect it to be so sudden, because I know you were considering it before and then you kind of well, I kind of like moved to Spain a bit last year and floated around and then went back, so it wasn't the right time.

Matt Kelly:

And yeah, we've built a team and an office in London, but for me it's definitely not the most productive place to be. Yeah, and the irony is, I think there's like a misconception with certain more traditional people, even in my own network. They probably think if you're not in the office, how can you grow a business? I would argue in many ways the opposite of that. Like well, I'm not wasting two hours a day going to the office for a start, and then the two hours a day in the office that no one does any work because they speak to each other about weekends. Um, yeah, I think in-person stuff is is really valuable, but my view on that is I'd rather do a day in person per month. That is actually like quality time, not just fucking sat next to each other looking at a screen, not speaking, because that's what offices are anyway generally. Um, then, like be in an office all the time and get less work done, because that's what I found for myself the past few months. Like wasn't in the office every day, but I was there like two or three days a week and I'd objectively get less done. And, yeah, you speak to the team and whatever, but I think most people also just want to fucking crack on and do their job. I also think like, yeah, offices are good, but I think most people would rather do it two intense days per month or three intense days per month Maybe. Do like a fucking you know like a team thing and collaborative, or whatever. You know like a team thing and collaborative, or whatever.

Matt Kelly:

I really don't think there's that much benefit to sitting next to people staring at a screen pretending you're being productive because you're in the office. Um, I don't know. I think it comes down to quality of life as well. Like, I've always struggled with the debate between remote and office, my personal view has always been I think remote is better. I guess in this case we've like gone down like a hybrid route because basically got an office because some of the team wanted an office and if that helps them do a better job, then fine, it serves its purpose, but it doesn't help me do a better job, um, which is why I'm now.

Matt Kelly:

I think hybrid's like a good solution, for some things need to be in person, like you need to go and visit like fucking factories, suppliers, like retail stores, whatever. But I think a lot of other stuff, especially in an econ business predominantly, is more effective, done remotely. Um, and it's an age-old debate because some people say, oh yeah, you can do that, but you can't do that to like a large scale. But even this, like example I mentioned earlier this, this brand called I think it's groons, but I call it gruns whatever they're doing like 100 mil rev and the founder is like vocally, like anti-office, and he's just like why do we have an office? Like people will have better quality of life, they can live where they want if they don't have to go to an office, as long as the work's getting done.

Matt Kelly:

What's more important? And the result. I think the biggest thing is focusing on the outcome Rather than time and place. Yeah, I think that's what a lot of people just get wrong. They think I've even had people say it to me like, oh, how can you be working in Bali? You must just be chilling, drinking bintang. Or Bali, dubai, marbella, whatever it is. I said, well, no, like I.