#306 Cardinal Mason - How to Scale an Info Business to $1M/Month

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Guest - Cardinal Mason
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@CardinalMason
Twitter: https://x.com/cardinalmason?lang=en

(00:00) Staying Relevant in the Info Product Space  
(02:15) From Influencer to Business Operator  
(05:27) Hitting Revenue Milestones & Paid Ads  
(07:42) Scarcity Mindset & Business Cycles  
(11:25) Materialism vs Building Wealth  
(13:23) Scaling with Paid Ads  
(20:07) The New Role of Organic Content  
(23:52) Market Saturation & Copycats  
(25:09) Targeting an Older Demographic  
(27:48) Building the Sales Team  
(30:37) Scaling Call Funnels & Webinars  
(34:59) Structuring Sales for Scale  
(38:04) Culture & Retention in Sales Teams  
(41:35) Leadership & Firing Lessons  
(43:45) Fitness as a Business Advantage  
(46:09) Fitness Journeys, TRT & Peptides  
(54:07) Lifestyle Trade-offs  
(59:38) Longevity, Mobility & Health as the Ultimate Flex  
(01:04:31) Shifting Motivations & Revenue Scoreboard  
(01:07:23) From Info Products to SaaS  
(01:11:20) SaaS Economics & Business Models  
(01:16:55) Scaling SaaS Through Info Product Flywheels  
(01:21:23) The Future of Info Products  
(01:25:29) Doubling Down When Things Are Good  

Chapters

• 0:00 Why Info Still Prints
• 1:02 Audience First vs Business First
• 2:16 New Year Reset and Intentional Focus
• 5:27 Scarcity Cycles and Cash Discipline
• 8:34 Paid Ads Mindset Shift
• 12:10 Targeting Adults Who Execute
• 14:12 Building a Sales Org That Scales
• 18:20 Culture, Retention, and Leadership
• 23:14 Health, TRT, and Performance
• 31:54 Organic Saturation and Offer Evolution
• 36:38 SaaS Ambitions: B2C vs B2B
• 42:05 Flywheels: Info to Software
• 46:36 Why Info Endures and Product Quality
• 51:13 Double Down When It’s Working
• 53:14 Wrap-Up and Next Steps

Transcript

CardinalMason: 0:00

How have you stayed relevant over the past three, four years at this point? Damn, I even think about how long it's been until you said it. The majority of my money that I'm gonna make over the next probably 10 years will be from info, and I don't even think it's gonna be from my info. I don't think it's gonna be from Carter Mason's copy of me. I I think like I've just learned so much over the last couple of years of how these businesses work, and I know that they're not going out of style. People are gonna continue buying info, whether it's from me or you or from somebody else, it's always gonna be a thing that they will buy. There's stuff that you think would get saturated and start to die out, like offers from like back in 2020, 2021 that you'd think there's no way that this could continue to make money forever. And the business is good, so it continues to make money.

Darren: 0:40

Where I want to start is in this fucking info product, info space, it's very common for guys to come in, make a bit of money, and then vanish forever. How have you stayed relevant over the past three, four years at this point?

CardinalMason: 0:57

Damn, I didn't even think about how long it's been until you said it. But yeah, bro, it's been a minute. I started making TikToks like beginning of 2022. Um, and dude, I don't know. I so first of all, I can't really say I've stayed relevant. I think like there's definitely been some personalities that have um come in and just dominated, and that's kind of how like the I guess the online like influencer space goes. But at the at at one point in time, I was kind of like an influencer with a business. And I think the reason why we've had longevity is like now I'm like a business guy who has a small audience online that kind of helps the business. Um, but I think, and you might you might agree with this. A lot of the guys who are coming in and doing well with info, um, they don't have the business fundamentals down. Like any business can last for years, you know what I mean? Like there's there's um there's stuff that you'd think would get saturated and start to die out, like offers from like back in 2020, 2021 that like you'd think like, all right, there's no way that this could continue to make money forever. And the business is good, so it it continues to make money. But um, I'm seeing a lot of people these days who are like audience first, business second, and I think that's where a lot of these guys like start to fail really quickly.

Darren: 2:15

Yeah, man. Let's double tap on that because the perfect example of an offer that's stuck around if the business owner is good is fitness, right? Fitness is like fucking each eat chicken, go to the gym, right? It's not that complicated. But people that are strong business owners and not content creators smash it. They really, really do smash it. So go deeper on that because that's one observation I didn't make of you, which is like when you're like a TikTok kid, you're obviously just a TikTok kid, but now you've done so much other shit because you learned the mechanics of how to run an info business at a high level.

CardinalMason: 2:46

Yeah, man. Well, so I I didn't always, you know, I mean I wasn't always like a business guy. Um, like at first, that's like like I said, I was a content creator. Um, but I think I don't know. I'm I'm an odd case, bro. I think I'm a weird one to study because like I've I'm not a natural entrepreneur and I've I've never really been that. Like, I don't know if you have guys on here that were like doing lemonade stands when they were nine years old. Like, I'm not that guy. Um, like I learned kind of late. And I think what I found was like back in 2023 when I launched what I'm doing now, I realized it's a it's a printer. And I didn't I didn't ever want anything to like dip down. I think that this is something that can do tens of millions of dollars. It already kind of has, you know what I mean? So I I kind of stumbled upon it and kind of got lucky. And I realized like, okay, if I want this to last, you know, as long as I need it to, then like I need to develop real business skills that can apply pretty much anywhere. And so that's kind of been like the story of actually most of this year. I can't believe we're already in September. It's just flying by. But like I was um, I'm I'm usually a bit of a I like to go out, usually a party. But on New Year's of this, like going into this year, um, I uh I got a hotel room in Toronto and I ordered a pizza and I think I watched a movie, and then I just for like from 11 o'clock in December to like two o'clock in the morning in January, I just like journaled like all the stuff that I wanted to do this year. I like said a little prayer at midnight, and I just like I I I knew that this was gonna be like a business year for me. Like I wanted to learn a ton, I had to learn a ton. And um, I heard uh do you follow uh uh Ruby on Twitter? No, 22 or something like that. Um he he had a tweet a long time ago that stuck with me where it's like what you do when you cross over from like one year to another is like it's uh it's very spiritual, it's very symbolic, you know what I mean? So if you cross over, if you're drunk as shit going into New Year's Day, then I mean that's gonna be basically like what the year is for you. But I wanted it to be, I want it to be super focused, super locked in. So yeah, I was just like zen as hell in my hotel room, scheming, plotting, and um, and so I mean, now we're here, we're we've this is by far our best year. I don't think um, yeah, I don't think I even expected it. Like 2023 was awesome, 2024 was good, but this is like I it's it's showing that I've been working my ass off, man.

Speaker 00: 5:27

Before we move any further, I have one short question to ask you. Have you been enjoying these episodes so far? Because if you have, I would truly appreciate it if you subscribe to the channel to help more business owners grow their online business today.

Darren: 5:40

What was what was on your goals for the year? And then what did you what have you achieved so far for this year?

CardinalMason: 5:46

Well, obviously we had revenue goals and we've hit that. Um, but more so is just like uh I really wanted to figure out paid ads. Um, I really wanted to like have that in my back pocket, which like at this point I kind of do. Um like we have a sick media buyer on Copy MBA who's who's ripping, but through him I've learned a lot. Um, but like I wanted to sort of prove to myself that like I could do this multiple times if I had to. Like again, one thing that info guys always kind of stress about is like, is this the only business I'll ever have that makes this much money? Um I wanted to make sure that that wasn't gonna be a thing. So I I wanted to learn skills that would make me money, whether I had you know 500k on TikTok or or no social media at all. So that was the that was the main sort of overarching thing, and it was more so feeling too. Like I just wanted to feel like I was locked in because 2024 I was not, bro. I just I thought that's the whole year.

Darren: 6:44

But dude, it's part of your evolution too, because like you know, you're also still just super fucking young, right? It's not like many people your age are gonna be DGENs in other aspects of life. So just to give a bit of context, man. I'm 29. I fucking finished university at 23. Like I literally finished university at 23, man, and I was like in that in that mode. And then I got into the space in 2020, I was 24, but again, I didn't get in the space doing things, I was creating content, creating podcasts, and then I learned the mechanics over the years, like, oh, you don't do this, you don't do that, right? So there can be there can be those that slippage, providing you have this year of being like super locked in, right? And making those quantum leaps. You made a very good point about these info cowboys feeling it's like scarcity, right? They have complete scarcity because they think, oh fuck, I can't repeat this. Maybe they had something go viral on TikTok, maybe they just did something to get attention, to gain our attention. Why do you think they have that scarcity mindset?

CardinalMason: 7:42

I mean, you see it in real time, and like it's a learned thing, right? Where you like a lot of these info guys, and I've been through this too, where you have like slow seasons because like you can't get anything to get any views on any social media, you know what I mean? Like you're making content trying to make money, and that's when it that's when it starts to like do like a downward spiral. And I'm seeing guys, I think I tweeted this as well. I'm seeing guys who I've heard rumors are not exactly killing it right now. And um, dude, I you can just tell they're uh like they're just every video they post is like they're trying to desperately fill their calendar. And so you go through it. Like you for at first you launch and you think, like, man, this is awesome. I'm gonna make this much money forever. And then you see your first little slowdown, and you're like, oh shit, like it's over, like we're done. And then it comes back, and then it's oh, we're back, I'm rich again, everything's great, and then it's slow again. You need to go through like probably five or six of those cycles before you learn that like it's not permanent. You get like, you know what I mean?

Darren: 8:46

Bro, it's it, but it's a skill though, right? Like, if you're going through those down periods and full transparency, I've kind of felt that too at times whereby you do a push, you do a launch, like we we're running an event next week. We run the event, afterwards, then there's like you know what it's like? A great analogy, it's like the tide. The tide comes in, it's fucking great, the tide goes out, but knowing that the tide will come back in should give you peace, but it actually gives other people way more stress and anxiety.

CardinalMason: 9:13

Yeah. I mean, that's you're a well, you said you're 29. 29. All right, so you're like a mature entrepreneur, you kind of get it. Um, but like a lot of these young guys, like if you're if you're 20 years old, you start making 200 grand a month with whatever you're working on, you know, I mean, dropshipping course. And you know, just the first thing came to mind. And you're like, all right, this is like this is oh, I'm gonna make 200k a month for the rest of my life, and I don't need to invest it, I don't need to do anything different. I'm gonna keep spending you know, I'm gonna buy two Lambos um in two of my favorite colors, depending on what you know, day I feel I want I want to draw the black one today, you know what I mean? And then like you go through this, and then your first little dip, and you're like, oh shit, like it's over. And some guys never recover too. There are guys that I think we both know where they've they've gone through that exact same thing and they never quite figure out like how to get back. Um and like, yeah, I don't know. So again, this whole year has been sort of like trying to bulletproof that for myself because like dude, of course I've I've had scary slowdowns where I'm like, damn, like this is the last year I'll ever make money. But I feel like at this point, um, like I I'm working on other stuff where it has nothing to do with my face, I'm not in it. It's not even make money online stuff, you know what I mean? Like, I'm I want to get out of that at some point too. Because like I'm getting up there too, man. I'm I'm 26. And like when I started doing this, I was 21 and 22, and it was cool, and I just I same sort of thing. I wanted to be a DJ and just want to fuck around. But at this point now, like I'm dude, I'm on Zillow every night looking at cribs in Boca. Um if if you've never been, it's like north of Miami, it's like where all the the suburbs are, and I'm just like I'm thinking like, okay, in the next two years, I'm gonna have one of these, and like I'll probably be married by then. And then that girl's probably gonna have a baby in it, you know what I mean? Like, I I wanna I wanna get to that part where I'm like I'm secure and I I don't want to have to worry about like, did my TikTok do well? Am I gonna make you know 100 grand this well? I hate that. That was the worst part of like it's at as a 30-year-old, I can't do that at 30 bro.

Darren: 11:25

Dude, do you ever see that meme? And it's like um it's like take it's like creating Instagram reels or TikTok videos as a kid to impress adults to buy my adult program. It's so funny, dude. It's like a guy getting ready, like he's like he's setting up his little ring lights, and he's like getting ready to dance, and it's so that other men buy his program, and it just it just kind of epitomizes how like you you kind of do have to evolve with it. And I I think you made a great observation. Now, I'm not buying fucking houses in Boca, but the money that I made from like info and agency, which we still have to this day, I've been reinvesting that. So actually, full transparency, I was reinvesting that into like the market and all this kind of shit, and I was like, fuck that. And then I thought, okay, I want a bigger play, and that's when we started moving now into software, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna put aside this cash, I'm gonna just fucking think it's a sunk cost because I want to do something as well that's gonna give me way more asymmetrical outsized returns. And I think what's interesting is obviously you've bought nice stuff, and I've bought nice stuff too over the years, but it's not like you've burned all of your cash on the nice things so that you can't do anything else. I think that's a big part of the scarcity stuff, too, right? Is you've spent the money that you've just fucking made without even paying IRS tax on it, and now you have to scramble to fix everything backwards. Yeah, man.

CardinalMason: 12:46

It's like I I don't know about you, I've gotten way less materialistic over the last like year, not even a year, bro. Probably like eight months. Um and like now, like the thing that excites me is just like building a war chest, you know what I mean? Like, I by the time I'm let's just say 30, like I want to be like truly untouchable, you know what I mean? Like 25 plus mil, where I'm not done working, but I pretty much have everything I want, and I'm never gonna be in a position where it's like, oh shit, like we gotta start selling stuff, you know. You need you need it, yeah. Exactly, exactly. I want choices here.

Darren: 13:23

Let's double tap on like the building of the info because I think the paid ad stuff is something that's wildly misunderstood by the content creator bros. And I you know you mentioned you're listening to my podcaster, Ryan Clogg. So I met Ryan in London, and he kind of like broke my whole brain with this stuff where he was like, I don't have a face of the brand, I don't really know, I don't even know the customers directly through social media. We just run paid ads and we figure that out. How what was that shift for you like mentally? And I saw your tweets on this, which is really good when once you get over the mental block of ads, and then how did you scale it? How did you build info? And now you've got up to over a million a month. How do you how do you do that, right? Because it's all it's all economics.

CardinalMason: 14:05

It's funny you mentioned Ryan because I started watching him probably around May, which was like maybe two or three months in like us feeling like okay, we got a hold of ads, but he was saying a lot of stuff that made it easier for like the team not to scale. So, like Ryan actually was a huge help for that. Um so everyone, everyone who's going from organic to paid will always start with this belief that paid ads won't work for me because they probably tried it before. Like, okay, so here's how it goes You have an organic offer, you're making 300k a month, you get approached by a growth operator, someone with an agency who's gonna try and take Rev share, and they're gonna do a bunch of stuff for you. And at one point, they're gonna say, like, let's just try ads, you know. I mean, like, we're gonna do a call funnel or webinar or something like that. We're gonna run ads to it, and they'll spend maybe $2,000, and then they'll decide okay, this doesn't work for me because they won't get any leads or the leads that they get won't be quality. Um, and I used to be that guy too. We tried ads, we tried this low-ticket funnel like last summer, and it just kind of shit the bed. Like it was never profitable, it didn't do what we wanted it to do, and I was like, okay, well, ads just won't work for me. Like, this isn't just the type of offer, or yeah, this isn't the type of offer that'll benefit from paid ads. And then I realized that was just dumb, and I started looking at all the other people who like kind of transitioned as well. Um, do you know Brooke Hitting?

Darren: 15:29

Yeah, man. I'm I'm good friends with Brooke. I was with him in I was with him in January. This is funny because these are like the real OGs. And dude, like I've seen Brooke's fucking numbers. Like, he's literally done like three or four million on the front end a month.

CardinalMason: 15:42

No, he's he's real OG. Like him and I we started at the same time. Uh well, I think he was a couple months behind me. It was I remember seeing his stuff, and he was he was talking with his partner at the time, David, about how they were doing 300k a month, and I was like, What?

Darren: 15:58

And then same, bro. Dude, we we both bear in mind we both left our job at the same time. He left a lawyer job, I left a tech job. I was like doing some gay engineering thing, and uh at the same like I would literally say it was within four months of each other. We both left our job same time.

CardinalMason: 16:16

Yeah, oh that's crazy. Yeah, and he's down, he lives, uh lives, but he's from down the street from it.

Darren: 16:21

And he's like, bro, this is the thing, right? He's married. I know this is such a tight scythe angle, but he's married, he has a baby. I met him and his wife like when she like one month out from her having the child in like January. So, like, we're all pushing on, bro, you know, so you gotta get this shit together a small bit. So I got sidetracked there.

CardinalMason: 16:37

So I I remember so Brooke was super active on on Twitter and Instagram. He was slinging this high-ticket e-commerce thing. And then I like he stopped posting and I stopped hearing from him. He stopped tweeting. I was like, what happened to Brooke? And then I heard from somebody else that he's like all paid now and he's doing like multiple millions a month. And I was like, oh shit, that was this like he was in the same position as me not too long ago. And then I would make all these excuses as for why it works for him and not for me. I was like, well, you know, like his is higher ticket than mine, and like, you know, it it inherently attracts like a more qualified audience compared to my stuff, and like, dude, all my customers are you know 18 to 22, like we don't want to target them on Facebook, they don't have money, whatever. All these dumb reasons, and then like something clicked, bro, like beginning of March of this year, and we just had a good batch of ads that we filmed that like just did what we needed it to do, and it was producing calls for us, and we were like, oh wait, and we realized that not only was the so we had traffic coming in, we were getting cheap calls, it was like 120 bucks a call or something like that. I think some days it was down to like 90 bucks a call, which is really good. And then we would mark all of these calls on our calendar for the closers. If it was a it was an ads call, it would be red, just so we knew. And um, we started to realize that like all the red calls were actually better quality and they were like they were higher intent than the people that were coming from my organic. I was like, what? So let's let's double down on this. And I heard the same thing coming from uh another uh big offer owner who you definitely know who he is, but I won't name names because I don't think anyone knows the numbers. But at the time he jumped from like 500k a month because he was mostly organic to a mil a month in one single month. And I was like, oh shit. And then I talked to one of his closers, his closers said the same thing, sort of thing where it's like, yeah, like the deletes coming from paid are way better, like they're just more qualified. Because like on ads, like you can talk to exactly who you want, you know. I mean, like on TikTok, it's people that are first of all on TikTok, they they they kind of look like me and they resonate with lysate or whatever, but like, and those are just people that naturally like want to invest in whatever I'm doing. But on ads, I can say, like, if you have a job, if you're employed, you're American, you speak English, like I can get exactly who I want. If you make 60k a year and you want to do something different, like I can make those direct call-outs and like meta notices that and it started feeding us all these people who fit our exact criteria. And then um scaling after that was kind of easy, bro. Because like I basically now, now I kind of have a business similar to Ryan's. Obviously, like my face is still a part of it, but I don't use Instagram or YouTube really, um, which used to be my biggest traffic channels. That used to be like how I would film my calendar, but I don't use that to do that anymore. It's all middle of the funnel. So, like, the only reason I post on Instagram and YouTube is so that people will see the ad, go to the profile or whatever, learn a little bit more, but like it's after they've already been introduced to me. Or if they've already booked a call and they need something to watch in the meantime, like that's why I have it. You know, I mean, it's not really to produce customers anymore. And then all it took for us to go from you know half a mil a month to a mil last month was just like putting our nuts on the line and just dropping hundreds of thousands of dollars of spend into Facebook ads. And it was honestly, it's just math, man.

Darren: 20:07

Yeah, it's bromat. It's literally fucking info product bromat. Um, fuck, I have so many questions this man, but the biggest thing that I've seen over the past couple of months, because like we're doing more paid now as well, right? Now, not not a couple hundred thousand yet a month, but we're trying to move it up. I just had a podcast with Jeremy Haynes. If you wanna if you want to see someone get roasted in real time, Jeremy literally just ripped my ass open for like 45 minutes of the podcast. One of my team was like, Do you want to include this? And I was like, Oh fuck it, just leave it all in.

CardinalMason: 20:33

But it's a big thing because that's everybody. I've got I've been on the business end of a Jeremy Haynes rant multiple times. Shit sucks. It's awful.

Darren: 20:41

Uh I it's you if you see my face in it, I'm like, I'm sitting in the seat and I'm like red, bro. It was like it was bad, but you know, again, he's like a fucking G. And one thing that I've really recognized is all of these organic guys, it's like you actually are early to this in terms of that moving, that shift, because it seems like to me that organic is becoming more of like a hermosy style where it's like you never ever ever ask for anything, bro. Just be in the corner, just put out your content, don't ask for fucking thing, and then you're using paid then to actually do the ask. Because again, right, if someone sees your let's say Instagram reel and then they've clicked on your page and they're within 180 days, then you can hit them with a retargeting ad. But organic behavior has changed as well. There's like this weird thing, right? I don't I don't know what's your observation on that.

CardinalMason: 21:31

Yeah, I I think it's I I hate I hate saying this word, but I I believe it's getting far more saturated, bro. I I I like to say that nothing's saturated, and I think like it's true for some people, like for good entrepreneurs, nothing's ever saturated. Like, um, pretty much any good entrepreneur, like if if we consider dropshipping saturated or supplements, more specifically, saturated, some guy like Rob the Bank that we both know can come in and just start a supplement brand and destroy everybody. You know what I mean? So it doesn't mean it's like saturated and it can't be done, but there's just so much more noise, bro. And I talked about this with uh my buddy, so you know, Ben, and then my marketer and our friend Sanjay. Um, we were talking about how back in 2023 or 2022, when I started, there were that you didn't have a ton of people that were selling stuff like this online. That was one of the reasons why like I did well on TikTok right away, was because like there weren't that many people who were like teaching money skills. They had you were they were learning e-commerce and they were learning uh day trading crypto. That was kind of pretty much it. Like nobody else is really selling info on anything else, and so I was the first guy to come along to like not talk about any of those things and talk about services instead. And we had a low-ticket Discord that we ran up to like over 100k a month just off TikTok, and it was like a $15 a month thing, you know what I mean? And so, like back then, that was when it was really easy, and then again in in 2023 when we sort of like relaunched Copy MBA, um, like we got to 600 plus a month, like just doing a weekly webinar all from TikTok, low ticket as well, and then upselling those people into a a 4K coaching thing. That was it, like that doesn't work anymore. Like, you there's so so and what I was saying was like all those people that were doing course stuff back in 2022 and 2023, they taught all the people who are now doing courses today. So it's like we we basically had kids, we multiplied, and now if there were 10 of us then, there's like 500 of us now, and then in two years from now, like when all the people who are selling courses today are a bunch of students, all those people are gonna go on and create their own thing too, and then it's just you know what I mean? Like there's just thousands of people who are selling stuff every single day, and you're just it's hard to keep up with it as a consumer.

Darren: 23:52

Uh, I even noticed that ourselves, man, and you probably noticed too, when your students will actually end up do selling what you do, right? They'll talk like you, they'll resemble you because your customers are a reflection of you, no matter what. But you will see like they'll road copy something because they just learned copywriting from you and they learned how to deliver from you. So you're like, oh, that's literally how I do something, which is fair, right? They've paid, they've learned, they're implementing what you've taught them, but it's like everyone becomes a role character of you in many ways, so something to be like cognizant of. I guess what one thing that's unique about your scenario though is that when you're targeting a little bit of a younger demographic, what's generally like the price range of your programs? And then how does that compute into the ads, right? Because it's not like super high ticket whereby you can have a shit ton of margin of error and you can kind of be a dumbass and still become profitable.

Speaker 00: 24:44

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CardinalMason: 25:09

Yeah, so we don't target that age demo anymore at all. Like we're they're not, they're sorry, I shouldn't say every, but they're rarely good clients, they're really good students. Like a lot of times they just straight up don't do the work um and they don't have money. You know what I mean? So, and also like it's a weird cusp where it's like if you're 21, you might have money, but if you're 19, you won't. So it's like if we if we start at 21, then like if if we mess up the age targeting a little bit, then we just like, I don't know. It's better like it's a weird demo, it's not good. So we like 25 to 35. We like people that actually do have degrees, even though you don't need it. We we want to work with people that have some sort of bachelor's just because it makes it easier for us. Like they're they already know how to learn, and also they've invested in education before, obviously. And people that have like decent jobs, like people that have worked with businesses before. Like our one of our stars right now, she's ex-Salesforce and she makes like 45 grand a month doing copywriting, like AI copywriting. She's ripping. And it's partly because like she's she's already she already knows the fundamentals of like what needs to be done. Like, she understands sales, she understands marketing. It's easy for her. Same with this other guy, Owen Santos, who's like just a stud, bro, in everything he does. He used to be like um an insurance uh well, no, sorry, he was managing a team of door-to-door solar guys, and then the season ended, and then he was waiting on a license to start selling something else. It was like annuities or something like that. And he's like, he's like a true like 50-60k a month sales guy, and he was bored and didn't want the money to stop, so he joined copy MBA, only did it for four months, and then in that four months, made like 95 grand or something like that. So, like, we want people who are going to be like top performers in everything they do. We don't want some like some kid who's like in high school or something like that, wants to make their their first ten dollars online. Like, we don't want that. Like, we we want to like we we have a reputation, you know what I mean? Like, we want to get people results, we want to make people real money, that's what makes us look good. And um, my dad has a saying, he says, like, it's not his, but he said it to me. Uh, how you do anything is how you do everything. And if we take people who are like kind of losers and they've been poor their whole lives and they don't have you know five dollars to their name right now, they're probably not gonna do well with copywriting. Like, it's not gonna change that quickly. Like, they have more work to do outside of whatever they're working on. We want people who have already dominated pretty much in everything they've done so they can come and do our thing and implement quickly and make a shit ton of money, and then we can use them as a case study, and then we our pyramid scheme continues, yeah.

Darren: 27:48

Yeah, because like those guys could technically do fucking anything, right? It's just they're just they just ended up doing copywriting. I've noticed that too, man. 100%. It's like, and and actually, those are the guys that will be around forever, right? Back to your point about the info guys not thinking we'll do everybody everybody to make money again. It's the same equivalent. If someone is someone who's super talented, they'll be able to do anything, fucking anything, put anything in front of them. So it's nearly the opposite. Now, tell me about how you actually convert these people. So you're running a call funnel for everything. Did are you running the sales team yourself, or did you get like a sales manager or something?

CardinalMason: 28:18

No, we got a sales manager.

Darren: 28:19

Um, do you know Philip?

CardinalMason: 28:21

Philip Carks. He's uh he's actually okay, so kind of crazy story with him. Again, one of those eight players that just like spawned out of nowhere. Um, he was a he was a kid in college, he joined um one of my buddies' sales training programs, started as a setter, was a setter for him, and then we poached him. He was a setter for me, worked his way up, became top closer, dominated that, and then uh started just managing dialers. So at the beginning of 2024, we didn't have a dialer team. We were just like every everything was a self book. And then um, so he came on and started managing dialers and started producing like an extra couple hundred grand a month just from like having people hit up old leads and stuff like that, which we never had before. So that was crazy.

Darren: 29:03

And then um how the fuck were you doing that? Sorry, is is that just when they book or just previous years taking their phone number from ClickFunnels or something?

CardinalMason: 29:11

Well, yeah, people might opt in or they might apply and not book or something like that. And there's just like all these people in our CRM, you have like tens of thousands of contacts that haven't done anything. And so like he hired a couple of dialers to just go through and just like just hammer them basically and just and get get them to convert. Um, and so that that made a huge difference. And then he started managing closures as well, and then beginning of this year he stopped taking calls. So now, yeah, so he's like a full-on killer. Like I sometimes people are like, if you're gonna have a business of you know this size, like we're gonna do probably probably over eight figures this year, and like you'd think that like not over eight figures, we would do eight eight figures, uh, but like you'd think that you need some sort of like corporate, you know, sales. Sales manager guy who like went to Harvard and like you know he's ex Facebook or something like that to manage a team like that. And like we just have like a 20 21-year-old savage who has like five-figure testosterone running through his bloodstream. I think we got like 12 or 14 guys now. Um, so yeah, so we got him, we have the media buyer, uh, we have I think nine people on our coaching team, like the product team, and then like yeah, like 12, 12 sales guys. And right, so right now we're doing the call funnel, uh, which gets the majority of spend. And then we have a webinar too. We do bi-weekly webinar.

Darren: 30:37

Fuck man, so how many calls do you book in like a day? Like 35 to 45? Roughly like on the calendar. All from odds.

CardinalMason: 30:44

Yeah, uh, that's on the calendar. So we'll book more than that. We cancel a bunch of them and people reschedule or whatever, but on the calendar every single day. Yeah, minimum 30.

Darren: 30:54

Jesus Christ, dude. Okay, so and that that's just into a VSL funnel. So there's no setting.

CardinalMason: 31:02

Well, the setters are in there too. Like we got so the way it works is we don't have an opt-in on it. Uncle Jeremy has has said that we we don't do opt-ins. People who have money and and are but they protect their time, they don't like opt-ins, they don't want to fill out information just to watch a VSL. So um, we have hundreds of people a day who will watch it and apply, and they might select uh like so on the type form, there's options where it's like if it's zero to 500, they can't invest, uh 500 to 2k, they could do it, but it might be a split, and then two to four K they can do it, and then four to eight K, they want more, more help than like what we just offer from the inner circle. Um, and so anybody who doesn't book directly on the calendar, which is a lot of people in the zero to 500 and then 5 to 2k, uh, those people get dialed. And a lot of times, like those people they actually do have money, they just don't want to tell us about it. And so what dial is that we'll get people that look unqualified on the type form, but they actually are. Or sometimes people will like actually say they are qualified, but they just won't get around to booking, and then um we uh so we'll just nudge them onto the calendar, and then they they get super active after a webinar. So we'll do a webinar, we'll get like 5,000 people to register. We got like 2400 people to show up. Not everybody converts, obviously, not everyone books calls. So after that, um, they'll run through the list of everybody who showed up but didn't book, everybody who knows showed, everybody who registered. So, like they yeah, those dialers are working all the time. Like we always need dialers. We have I think, yeah, just just in dialers, my I think it's eight to ten or something like that. I have no idea. Um, but those guys are busy. Those guys are busy.

Darren: 32:44

Man, this is fucking crazy. So when you're running the webinar funnels, are you going straight to a buy button or straight to a call funnel? Call funnel. So they book off the webinar, and then you're you're filling that up for like three or four days afterwards.

CardinalMason: 32:56

Yeah, brand. So we'll do it on Tuesday night, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday completely packed out. Sometimes we'll get some trickling on Saturday. But in those three days, like we have no calendar space. And then the closers for how many closers? Three closers. No, we have five, so three main ones, two who are like more like junior closers, like they're former dialers, so they're they're getting better, uh, but not getting like tier one calls yet. And then we have one guy who will come in just for um Webby calls.

Darren: 33:28

Bro, this is crazy, like this is a huge operation, man.

CardinalMason: 33:31

Honestly, dude, it's it's crazy to think about because it doesn't feel like that. Like I actually just sent like a big because today's the first, right? Yeah, so last night was August 31st, and like that was uh again our first seven-figure month, and I sent this big long message to our our team, the sales team. And like we all kind of agreed that like it doesn't feel that crazy, you know what I mean? Like we've had big weeks before, we've had big days where it's like we're kind of used to it, and it doesn't seem like we did anything different. Like the only thing I did differently was like I just filmed a shit ton of ads, like way more ads than normal, and we spent a lot more. And um, everyone's just like locked the fuck in. But it didn't seem like it's a huge deal, you know what I mean? I feel like that's why, and I think that's what keeps us going too. It's like we don't feel super accomplished, we don't feel like we just did this crazy thing. Feels like a especially compared to like guys like Brooke or guys like Ryan, where it's like this is this would be a terrible month for them. If they only did a mill, like they would jump off a bridge, like they wouldn't be profitable.

Darren: 34:32

Well, it's funny because that's exactly what happened, right? And he went from like four and a half to like 1.7 or something and thought they're gonna lose their mind. I think the biggest thing here though is that it's like a dial with the ads, you can just dial it up, but it but it's what's really impressive is the fact that you have the sales team on the back, right? Like you have the you have the infrastructure, sorry, to be able to scale. Because a lot of guys will just have like one, maybe two closers, they'll get packed up, they actually cap their they cap their revenue potential.

CardinalMason: 34:59

100%, yeah. And it's it's even more so like not even just like calls that can be taken, like you're having more closers makes everything easier. Where it's like you can do live transfers uh from dialers, or if if other closers need calls taken, but also like when you're running a call funnel, what happens is a qualified lead will get to the end of the application and they can book. And then if they don't see every single time slot open that they could be able to book, like your cost per call will go up. So like we have closers on the calendar who like like this one guy who's like kind of only there sometimes, I think he's on another off or something like that. His thing is open all the time, so that if someone if we have you know five people that all want to have a call at 1 p.m. or something like that, they have the option to do that. Um, because like sometimes like that's the only time they have available, like that's their lunch, and they could, you know, end up paying $5,000. But yeah, if they if they don't see the time slot that's that they want, they just won't do it, and that's a lost lead. So, like, yeah, more closures the better. Like, and we also had to overhire where it was like kind of uncomfortable and didn't really make sense, where it was like, all right, these some of these guys aren't even getting calls, you know. I mean, they're gonna make four grand this month, like it's kind of a waste of their time, but you need to do that so you can scale into it.

Darren: 36:15

That's crazy, man. What advice do you have for managing that team, right? Because I guess you didn't have three or four closures before, you didn't have a shit ton of dialers. So, how did you kind of go to ramping, training, deploying, replacing everything?

CardinalMason: 36:29

It happened over time, and thankfully, bro, we haven't had to replace, we've never had a sales guy quit. Well, that's not true. We've had one main guy quit because he had a banger opportunity to go somewhere else. But like, dude, we don't have people quit on us. Like, we don't really have to replace people. Like, we we have a sick culture, like all the boys are our friends. Like, they like, dude, we have and these dialers too, bro. Like, they will they will get up at eight in the morning, they'll start dialing at like 8 30. They might go for a walk or something like that, start dialing at 8 30, and they'll go until like 1 30 in the morning, bro. Like they'll hit Bali opt-ins, you know. I mean, people in Australia that are just getting up or something like that. Um, and like they'll just be on Discord, like in a little huddle or chat or whatever it's called, and they'll just be with each other. Like all eight of the guys will just be talking shit in between dials and stuff like that, just hanging out. It's hilarious. So I think having a having a good culture is is important because like that's why these guys work so hard because they they love this job, they see it as a job, they get to work with the boys, you know what I mean. I used to work, I used to have this dope ass job, summer 2016. I was working at McDonald's, bro. And um, we were like a couple of my boys that would work there back in the kitchen and like some some baddies that were working the window or something like that. And it was just like a sick, a sick job. It was cool, and that's kind of what this is for them. And like, even if they don't make like a ton of money, like all these guys, if they wanted to, they could either do what I teach or they could go be a closer somewhere else and they would make more money. Um, but they don't seem to want to do that, so dude, 100%.

Darren: 38:04

100%, dude. We uh I we moved back to an office, so we got an office in Bali. Um, we had like a dispersed team, so they were in Europe, Asia, America, Brazil, and guys were coming for our events. Culture is so fucking good, everyone, bro, like bro, is like proper, it's just proper, like it's like a boys' culture, even though we have a we have a shit ton of women too. Um and I they were coming back here and I was like, fuck this, let's go like big, let's get a sick office, all glass, overlooking like the city, so beautiful, right by the beach, and everyone loves it. Now, if you heard of an office, everyone's like, oh my fucking god, I'm never gonna work there, but they want to be there, and now it's not like an office office, like it is super like aesthetic, and we have like a restaurant, bro, we've got everything in there, but it's sick because these guys choose to be there. And last night the biggest debate was who's gonna take the key home because someone is gonna work later than the other person, the other person's gonna come back earlier than the other person. So I think when you create that environment and like you're just a cool dude, right? You're like a chill guy, like you're like pretty low stress, people want to be around that energy. So the person that you are is the reason why you have a bunch of other fucking cool people in the company. I appreciate that, bro.

CardinalMason: 39:16

And dude, isn't it so sick? Isn't it so cool? Because, like, isn't that what we chase as entrepreneurs? Like, we want to we do this because we want everything to be custom. I want everything in my life to be to my spec, right? Just like a rule of choice. You want to choose every single option, and a big part of that outside of your social life and where you live, and like even the apartment you have in which city you want to live in, is like the people you're around when you're working. Because I spend a lot of time working, I enjoy what I do, and so I'm on as as you know, as much as possible. And like the people that I get to spend time with like, dude, I'll just randomly FaceTime my closers when I know they have a no-show or something like that. I'll just I'll just FaceTime and just we'll talk shit for a little bit. Like, it's fun, bro. And like that's the thing that I appreciate the most about entrepreneurship, and sounds like you probably would agree, is like you get to pick who you work with. I've never had a shitty or I haven't had a shitty coworker in years because I choose my coworkers, I get I hire them, I pay them, you know what I mean? So it makes it really fun to like have just a culture of people that are all working on the same sort of thing.

Darren: 40:20

It's it's leadership, right? And I think I don't know where I heard this, but it's like someone will appreciate just a random fucking FaceTime on a Saturday evening, like a closer or setter who's like struggling on their like you know, weekend time, weekends of fucking scam, but whatever, they they will appreciate that more than anything else. Then more than the money, and this is the funny part is that like they don't just get money from you, which you pointed out earlier, they get the lessons, the inside, the fucking clarity, the friendships. There's so much other shit that they get that you would never get elsewhere. This is the big advantage, and I think uh it's actually funny because we went through this kind of spell where we got more calls book from Colt, and conversion went down for sure, the close rate went down 100%. And I was writing to a few communities that I'm in and all this kind of stuff, and the biggest feedback was drop the guys and replace them, or pay for training, and it never even came into my mind to drop them because they were all super fucking committed guys. I was like, who's the sales trainer that I can pay? Who can I do one-to-one coaching with? Who can come in and sit train our team? And that made a huge improvement to everything because like it's way easier to develop better talent than it is to fucking find new people like 24-7. And I think people also appreciate that, right?

CardinalMason: 41:35

Dude, yes, yes. Like, listen, it I'm not supposed to be as as close to my guys as I am, like, it's against managerial practices. Like, you're supposed to kind of like leave some distance. So, if you do have to fire somebody, you don't feel bad about it. Um, so I mean, there's definitely guys that I've kept on way too long that should have been fired. Like the first, the first clother I ever hired, I I like the guy, he's a good person, but bro, like, so I brought him on, and then like he was good for like a year, and then after that, he just got way too comfy. And this guy was like one my first hire, like, this is the first guy I ever brought on for this business. And I was like, dude, I can't let him go. And so I yeah, dude, I had endless conversations with him, and I was like, man, like you've got to pick it up. Like, you're just not, you're being lazy, like you're not you're not following up with people, like you're just letting people off if they're not a lay down, you know what I mean? Like, not even handling injections. And um when I finally had to to fire this kid, like it really hurt, bro. Like it really sucked. And like, this is a kid that, like, dude, I've given him crazy numbers and bonuses. Like, dude, I bought him a role, I bought him his first Rolex, and it was like, man, I can't believe that like the shit didn't work. So, like, I don't know. Like, you kind of have to accept that sometimes, but like that's why I have a sales manager, is because I I'm like the everyone always thinks that it's like the big boss is like the scary one, and like the manager sort of like the he's for the people, but like it's kind of the opposite because like most of the sales guys are like kind of afraid of Philip because he's way meaner, and like when I hop on a call, like it's like okay, we're we're chilling, like none of us are gonna get fired today. Because like Philip's the one that has to deliver the bad news when somebody gets fired, Philip's the one that has to like difficult these guys and like train them and tell them when they're doing something wrong. And like I just get to pull up and be like, dude, like, for example, like one of my closers lives up in Toronto, and this weekend I'm gonna be there, and like I'm probably gonna take this kid to Paris, Texas. You know, that's a that's a a popular like bar. Like I've partied with them before, like I've I've been out with all these guys, and so it's like that's like the shit that I want to do. I don't have to like train them or discipline them, I just get to you know make ads and party with my closers, but that's a perfect position to be in.

Darren: 43:45

But I I love that dude. Um, it's more of like a family vibe whereby you're all in it together. Like we up until we had the office, we were all working for my villa, and the villa, you know, it was fine for fucking a few people, and then it just kept growing and growing. But we eat together. Actually, funny enough, I was just messaged the guys before you joined. We trained together every day, super important. So the bro, the gyms in Bali are fucking insane. Like, like gym, recovery, food, like everything's kind of like in one like compound, and there's like 20 of these places, bro. By the way, they're like really, really beautiful. Like it's like a country club, basically. Um, as you'll find this funny, bro. Um, the guys were like, asked me one day, they were like, like, do we get like healthcare? And I was like, no, but if you're a fat, I'll pay for your personal trainer. So all the all the guys train with my coach. My coach is like a pro bodybuilder, bear mine. I'm like, go to him and he'll take care of you. And then they were like, Will you pay for that? And I was like, No, no, no, you have to pay for yourself. You won't fucking appreciate it if you don't pay for it. And then they're all getting jacked, getting shredded, making money, and having fun. Like, bro, it doesn't get any better than that.

CardinalMason: 44:49

I bet their performance goes up when they shed that weight, too, bro. 100%, dude. 100% that little saying that I love so much. Like, how you do anything is how you do everything. So if you're if you're a little bit lazy in the gym, you're you're way too sedentary, you're eating like a pig, you're not gonna be as effective. Like, you're way more locked in, you're way more effective. Like, if you got fitness dialed and you're socialized dialed, like you're gonna be dialed on the phones too, or whatever they're doing if they're selling.

Darren: 45:14

Yeah, 100%, dude. Dude, that was a big part of your journey too, right? I remember two or three years ago, that's when you first like properly got into the gym.

CardinalMason: 45:20

I've I've kind of always been in the gym, but I've definitely I've had I've been a lot fatter than I am right now. Um I uh I originally lost like a shit ton of weight. Like, dude, I was big. I was like 180, which for my frame is is too much. Like, I'm I'm not a taller guy, I'm like 5'7. And same.

Darren: 45:40

On a good day, I get up to 5'6.

CardinalMason: 45:42

But dude, like we have the same thing where it's like you can you can look like how you look, not working nearly as hard in the gym. Like, we have it easier 100.

Darren: 45:53

But also, bro, you can get I'll tell you a fucking funny story afterwards, but you can look shit really quickly. This is one thing I noticed. Like, I I'm like 80 kilos now, and I can just like one kilo on me is like huge, is like big on my face and shit.

CardinalMason: 46:09

And that can be one bad weekend, you know what I mean? Like my my maintenance calories are like 2300 or so, 2200. And so you can I can eat 2200 calories in one sitting if I want to. It's easy. Like some of these guys who are like 6'2 plus, and they can they can eat 3500 calories a day and be fine, like they'll still lose weight. Like that, I don't know. That's just a reality I'll never get to be a part of. But I um I realized I was looking way too chubby, I think like summer 2023. And also that was um, you ever heard of uh I think it's called First Batty Syndrome or something like that? And I started dating this girl who I at the time I thought was like a little bit too hot for me, and I was like, man, I gotta I gotta get my shit together. Like she was she was way hotter than I was, and so I was like, I gotta close this gap a little bit. Um, and then I don't know if you fuck with peptides or anything, bro, but I've been kind of on and off of Reta for the last like few months, not because I need to spread, but because I it just makes it so much easier to maintain and just like not get out of control.

Darren: 47:13

So I was on BCP 157 for recovery, but that was only when I was running marathons, and bro, like I just basically I tore my calve and I was trying to fix it with a fucking peptide, so it's kind of like I don't even know what it is, bro. I don't even can't even think of an analogy for it. So that was that was retarded, and then I I started TRT about a month ago. I have a hilarious story for you. So I'm 29, my test was 714, and my free test was pretty good, it was like 24, whatever the fuck that means. Um, but I've been training since I was 14, so I was competing when I was younger and all this kind of stuff. And the big issue for me is to put on more muscle takes so much of a buck. So if I spent I spent six months on a buck, right? And I put on like two kilos of muscle, the rest of fat. So I spoke to my coach, and I was like, we were like basically we're gonna run a small dose of TRT. So I run like 150 megs, and bro, it was fucking crazy, craziest shit ever, bro. Within like a day, uh like I said, three days, you know what it's like? It's like Terminator. I wake up, I'm asleep like this, and then my eyes open and I'm like, must scale now. I just my brain is just like always on, and the best analogy is it's like driving a Ferrari, which you own, at full throttle, full revs at all times, and also, bro, there's like a huge link between like high test and risk, and I'm just way more risk on, and also decision making. You're just because you think about it, right? If you're in a corporate job and you're like a fatty and you're like you know low test guy, you you're like a super indecisive. You're like, I must ask my manager, can I go to the bathroom? Whereas if you're like high test, you just make decisions faster and you're like fuck it, I'll just figure it out, and that's basically what happens. So I need to get my bloods done now at the end of the month, but I expect it to be in around 1200, generally, generally, man, genuinely, and like that that's super and the analogy is kind of like because I was never on it, when I went on it, it basically has like a huge response, you become like a super responder basically to your body, and uh yeah, man, it's fucking crazy. So obviously, like you're super young, but maybe like three years' time. Um, so just for a bit of context, I put on six kilos, which is like 13 pounds, 14 pound in six weeks. Wow, wait, when did you start? Like seven weeks ago. I put on four kilos in a week.

CardinalMason: 49:39

Now that you've started, is this so have you have you kind of made peace with the fact that this is like are you gonna do it forever? Like, are you ever gonna get off, or is there like a plan to get off?

Darren: 49:48

Or yeah, well, like this is the thing is that like you want to be able to do this well into your 30s and 40s, and one of the reasons why people quit just with everything is because they drive, the drive goes down. So the logic is like, you know, if you're gonna go on it at like 40 because you want to have your your drive to build stuff when you're in your 40s and 50s, well then you may as well just have it throughout the entire period. And honestly, dude, like the amount of involvement that takes when you get over that mental barrier, it kind of like adds, it's so little to maintain. Like it's if you think about the context of like going to the gym, getting your food right, sleeping, uh, it's so much easier, genuinely. And it's it's actually funny because there's loads of studies on if you if you're on TRT and you don't train, if you're on TRT, train. If you don't take TRT, train. If you don't take TRT and don't train, the guys who take TRT and don't train make more progress than guys that are in the gym.

CardinalMason: 50:40

I know, dude. I saw that. I think it was a Jeff Jeff Nippert video, and that shit blew my mind. I couldn't believe it. Guys that will take steroids and sit on the couch will make more gains than you and I naturally busting our ass, like going full out in the gym. And it's not by a lot, yeah.

Darren: 50:59

No, but by a lot, dude. I was sick. I got like sick for the first. I was actually I had a podcast with Jeremy Haynes and I messaged him being like, I sound like fucking Spongebob, I have to cancel. And then he was like, Oh, okay. And then a week later, I had my podcast with him, and he's like, Do you feel better? And I was fully bedbound for a week, and I'm usually itching to get back to the gym. And after like five days, I was like, I am bigger than what I was before I got sick because my body was like it was recovering, number one. And I got up and I was like, my shoulders are rounder, I have more energy, and I was sick, bear mind. I was fucking bedridden, bro, for a week. And yeah, dude, it's it's an interesting game. So I was joking to my to my coach yesterday, and you like you see like the fucking TRT needle, and it's like it's like it's all about recovery, bro. Because that's like the mental model, and it's interesting, right? Because like if that's a super low dose, imagine when you're I don't know, like you're cycling, or what I mean is you're actually physically cycling, like you're like a cyclist, or you're a bodybuilder, or you're competing at a high level, you're just in a different ball game, you know. So one thing you gotta be aware of too is like you know, Hormosy says he's on TRT as well, right? But it's all about the dose. You know, if you're at if you're at 250 milligrams, that probably means nothing to you now, but if you go for like 150 to 250, it's not TRT anymore, right? It's just straight up cycle. So, yeah, so you just gotta be careful, like, you know, where do you fall within that threshold? Like, as my coach says, what's TRT plus? You know, there's TRT plus, and then there's just gear. And it's like, okay, which bracket are we actually in?

CardinalMason: 52:32

It's fun. I I follow this guy on Twitter. This is how I know all this stuff, bro. I don't really look into it outside of this one guy, uh, anti-anti doc, uh, mass monster or something like that. He's do you know who I'm talking about?

Darren: 52:46

No, such a Twitter name, though.

CardinalMason: 52:48

He's an anonymous Twitter user that like he has basically an uh let me find him. Yeah, yeah. Oh, mass mentor. That's what, yeah, anti-doc. Um, he's uh anonymous Twitter guy that I guess just experiments on all kinds of random shit. Like, I don't know if he like actively does like any crazy, crazy steroids, like any of the dangerous shit, like DECA or Trend, but he like bro, he's a human pin cushion, he'll fucking pin whatever. Like, if it's if it's a peptide, he'll do it. And they he makes these, or not him, but the the company he's affiliated with, they make these mixes and stuff. And so there's one called Glow, where it's like a mix of like GHK and something else, and it's like he'll he'll just try whatever, and like he's very pro like steroids. He's honestly normalized it where it's like, dude, I used to think that if you were taking tests, like you were a crazy person. It's like, why the fuck are you on tests, bro? Like, you're you don't need that, like your balls are gonna shrink. Like, I had all these like weird, I didn't know how it worked, right? Now, like I actually know a handful of guys who are younger than me doing TRT because they actually need it.

Darren: 53:50

And dude, even if you look at someone like Rob, Rock Rob the Bank, I don't know is he honestly, but he's open about T. Yeah, and he's like 34 or 34? 32, I think. Oh, really? Okay, but like that's the reason why he has his frame, bro. The dude's like six foot fucking six, and he's like super jazzed.

CardinalMason: 54:07

I can't take pictures of him because he makes me look like I'm like 4'11, bro. He's such a big dude.

Darren: 54:12

When I met him in Miami, he got out of a fucking escalade. He got out of an escalade, and I was like, this dude looks like a professional basketball player, just the way he walks in his massive fucking green jacket, and uh that was a big thing for me, right? Because it's not about like, are you too young? It's just about like are you actually committed? And I would say one of the variables why he can just get up and fucking shoe glass every day is because of that. It's one of the you know a thousand variables, but yeah, man, and I and I genuinely looking at someone like Hermosy, it's one of the same effects as well. Because you gotta think about it, man. Like, as you get past like 28, 29, your body actually does actually decay, right? It like it actually slowly decays until it decomposes until you die. And one is obviously your hair, two is like yeah, this just sounds so weird now, but your hair, your skin follicles, your skin cells become hair cells, right? You like develop hair on your back, your ears, like you actually literally start decaying, but you can stop that with TRT. You can actually literally stop that, and it's also fucking legal, bro. Like it's fully legal, it's legalized. You can you literally get it administered by a doctor. So if a doctor is administering to, it's fully legal, you can travel with it. Then, like, where actually is the issue? The issue is like your in your, as you said, your awareness of the information. So once I had looked into it for quite some time, I was like, Well, this makes fucking perfect sense.

CardinalMason: 55:34

For my kids, it's a business decision. I I have I'm very curious about this, and I've dude, I I've joked around so much, like with my boys and stuff, like, dude, fuck it, I'm hopping on test. Like, I I always everyone always jokes about it, but like I'm actually I'm curious. Let's say, let's say you're um, like you are traveling, right? So you obviously bring like I guess alcohol pads and the syringes and the the test in a little bottle. What happens if you don't take it? Like, if you for some reason, like either you the you can't get access to it or you don't have syringes, or what especially in Bali, where it's like that stuff's probably not readily available. Are you screwed if you don't take it for like two weeks, or like what happens?

Darren: 56:16

Not for like two weeks. You could you're pretty much good for that, and after like four weeks, then you're probably gonna go back to like normal levels. But this is the thing is like if you're blasting fucking gear, of course you're gonna feel like shit. But I actually said exactly this in my coach when I was doing it, it was like, what about that two to four week range? It's good, it's chill, and it's almost like not worth the hassle like bringing it. Like, you need a doctor's note anyway, which is fine. But and you can also literally go in and out of America under like there's like a special medical act that that allows you to do that, and it's just preloaded, it's like a fucking gun, preloaded. You can just go in anywhere if you want to, but full transparency. If I'm going into San Francisco, which I need to do next month for like a week or two, I'm not gonna bring anything with me. I'm just gonna go work, come back, done. Dude, this shows you like how retarded science can be, or like, yeah, yeah, literally science can be. When TRT started, it was one injection a month you were given. So of like I'm on 60. So you're you're doing 150 a week, right? 150 a week, right? Yes, pretty much, because it's 60 milliliters I take a week. So they would just preload that shit, fuck it in your ass or whatever, and then it would just it would just like boom and then release, which is so bad for your blood, bro. Like that's super, super bad for your blood. Like you never want anything. It's like take it's like taking like ecstasy, man, right? You don't like ecstasy is inherently bad because you go up and go down. So it's like it's basically the equivalent of that just for just for testosterone. So that's that's still happening. Even like one of my mates that's here, he was like, Oh yeah, like quite literally, I just go to the doctor and they just stick it in my ass, and then I come back the next month. And I was like, What?

CardinalMason: 57:56

Wow, what are you are you inventing yourself?

Darren: 57:59

Yeah, and you can do like I would say I would suggest like two to three times a week, and it's just done chill.

CardinalMason: 58:04

Because I I won't even do my own retina needles, and they're tiny needles, and it's like it's sub Q, so it'll be like my belly. But when I'm in Miami, we're gonna have a nurse come and do it, and now that I'm in Canada, I have my my EA coming down. It's not her job, bro. She helps me kids.

Darren: 58:20

But yeah, that's how it's like it's like to scale this business, you're gonna have to do this. It's a business expense.

CardinalMason: 58:26

No, for real. Like, but I I I had her do everything, bro. She like bought it online and she's like reconstituting it for me and everything, and then she's come and shoot me up, and then back on she goes.

Darren: 58:35

Dude, that's so fucking funny. Yeah, and you have again, right? You have to be not careful, you have to be careful, obviously, but you gotta see what's best fit, right? It's like sub Q, which is blow your belly button. That's actually not best for like TRT sometimes. I'd much prefer like your yeah, but that's what I mean. It's like you just gotta be careful, right? If like if you're using a peptide, if you're using this, you see, understand like what are you actually using and like what's what's the actual outcome I'm gonna get for it? Because dude, you do you ever get like pip, like post-injection pain? Do I know? Oh, okay, that's interesting. So I get that I actually get that quite a lot. So like my leg, I'll get like a like a it's almost like um it's like a dead leg when you're in school and someone hits you in the leg, you get that like feeling, and it's like ooh, fuck that's sore, and you have that for like 24 hours. So it just you gotta figure it out, right? It's like kind of it's just bromad, bro math, bro science. It's like the ads, you gotta figure it, figure them out one way.

CardinalMason: 59:26

Bro, every man.

Darren: 59:28

But it's it's literally like a make money meme, you know what I mean? It's like the EA injecting the peptide so I can run more ads, just making sure that it all fits together.

CardinalMason: 59:38

Exactly, bro. It all it all ties in. Um, yeah, dude. But to take it back, um I I um I probably won't be doing TRT for a while. I'm gonna I'm gonna try and see what I can do naturally first, but I will hit you up when I when I decide to do it.

Darren: 59:57

When I get to my get your blood stone. That's that's The biggest thing my bloods have been super stable for years, dude. It was basically the exact same like 714, 704, 726 for like two years straight. You were only natural. Well, that well, also, bro, like I I so I was a super D gen, and I mean like very, very heavy. Like partying, I beat the every year, like a couple times a year, all this kind of stuff. That because I'm kind of like inherently stupid, I took a break from all that stuff to build a business. Because one, I just like fucking needed to figure shit out, and then two, I kind of never went back. So that was the biggest thing was like I just never really went back to it. Just because I don't know, Asia's not huge for partying, to be honest. Like, it's very big on like lifestyle factors. So I could when I took away a break from that, that obviously meant my physique was going to get better, my energy's gonna get better, my stress got way went way down. Like, dude, I was super fucking erratic when I was younger, just like couldn't hold a relationship all over the place. Um, and all that stuff kind of settled, so then I was getting really dialed in in training. And for me, um, I do want to get into like really kind of extreme sport, like long distance running, like really heavy shit. But one, it's a massive time sink for the business, and then two, I just feel I'm too young. So I was like, all right, just gonna bro scale it for a bit, and uh you can always do that stuff when you're older, like 35-40, but you can't really do that stuff when you're in your 20s, right?

CardinalMason: 1:01:19

You're talking about business?

Darren: 1:01:21

No, like more like long, extreme sport shit, you know, whether it's like extreme running and all that kind of stuff. You want to do that, yeah. You want to optimize this time for right now for like building the business, building the body, building the brain, and then you can do all that shit when you're older, right?

CardinalMason: 1:01:34

Yeah, dude, that's actually and like it's it's gonna sound silly because you're older than me, but like, dude, I'm the oldest out of like my friend group. Um, I'm like I said, I'm 26. And dude, 26 is when I'm starting to feel like I'm already starting to feel like a teaser of what it'll be like to be 30 or 35, where it's like there's some shit that is just like, dude, I threw my back out like a month ago or something, and it was really bad, bro. I like legit could not walk for like three days. Um, I ended up fixing it just by having a couple drinks, and like my body just relaxed, and so everything was totally fine. Um like, dude, I was like in unbearable pain for like for like a full five days, and then I like forced myself because I was still moving around a little bit. I was I found out I was able to drive the car. And so I I got in the Ferrari and I put my girl in the passenger seat and we drove up to West West Palm to this hotel called the Ben. And we just wanted to have like a little weekend or whatever. And um, dude, I uh I we went to the hotel bar and I I limped to the hotel bar. I was like walking kind of sideways. And then when I I sat down at the stool and I had four Moscow mules. And by the time I got up off the stool and went back to the hotel room, it was fine. So I don't know what happened, bro. It was just like a really tense muscle. But anyway, when I was walking around all sore and just like just feeling shitty and like inflexible and immobile, I was like, man, like this is this is how like old people actually are. Like this is gonna be me one day. And like I've suddenly felt this urgency to like just start to protect my body a little bit more. Like I used to laugh at guys who would do mobility training, you know, Logan Fitz? I love Logan Fitz, and like he and he's like also DGen, but also like trains really hard. And he used to like get on on Twitter and start talking about train mobility. I'm like, dude, you're Logan Fitz, like you're like 220 pounds, just pure muscle. Like, why are you talking about mobility? And like now I'm starting to understand why people do that because it's it's a longevity play, you know. I mean, like you want to be like you want to feel good forever.

Darren: 1:03:41

I'm like fuck man, the the gym that I'm in is literally like a mobility gym. Like there's obviously a shit ton of like Smith Machines and dumbbells and stuff, but all those mobility guys, it's funny enough. A lot of those like bodybuilding bros, they move into calisthenics and they're all doing like wild calisthetics now. Now I will say they built the muscle and now they look insanely shredded, like insanely, insanely shredded because they're working on mobility, they're doing a shit ton of like bodyweight stuff, but like actual tension stuff. So yeah, man, it like you know, I I actually always say that in Bali health is the ultimate flex because you can't drive good cars here. Um, it's super fucking humid, so I don't even I don't even wear my watches here, man. I might wear them out of dinner, but I got I can't wear them during the day because my my wrists expand, so I can't even wear a fucking watch. Um yeah, health is the ultimate flex, man.

CardinalMason: 1:04:31

That's that's an interesting way to put it. Yeah, you got nothing else there.

Darren: 1:04:35

Dude, there's literally nothing here. Like I'm actually being serious. The traffic is so bad, um, it's just so fucking and it's so terrible. You can't get a car here. Like you can't. And I've seen like a four a few Porsches and they just look retarded because the roads are just so heavy with traffic that the only way to get around is motorbike. So I have a I have a decent enough motorbike, but it's still it's still not a priority, right? This is the thing, is like it's just not a priority, um which is a good and a bad thing. I obviously wish I would have like a little bit more like a luxuries like that, but at the end of the day, what I'm optimizing for it's funny because it's like I'm not optimizing for like a watch, right? I'm optimizing for like a really good business that pays me, that I have fun with, that I work with good people, that I build something really actually fucking meaningful and get good results. It's just interesting. I feel like a lot of people go through that arc. Does that make sense?

CardinalMason: 1:05:21

Dude, it's so funny you say that because like my my why has changed so much over the last few years. Like back in 2022, started making money. My why was I want to buy my first Rolex. That's what I want. That was all I cared about, you know what I mean? Um, and back in the day, like before that used to be like, my why is I want to move out, but now it has nothing to do with even the money that's going into the bank account. Like, I don't really care that much. I don't I my my spending habits have gone way down. It used to be out of control. Like I used to spend like 80 grand a month on personal shit, bro. It's crazy. Yeah, it was wild. Um, so that's gone down. I've fixed that a little bit, and like now, like my why, bro, is like it's just straight up scoreboard. I say this to a lot of people, and they're like, no, bro, like you also want stuff. And it's like, yeah, of course I want stuff. Like, I want a crib and I want, you know, whatever. Like, I want whatever. But like the thing that drives me now is like who else, like how who can I beat? Like, who else is ahead of me? And I I always see um revenue, not profit, but revenue in terms of like how good are you at business? Like, I remember I heard this originally from my buddy Daniel Fazio, who I don't know if you know him, but he's a great entrepreneur, he's built multiple successful, like seven, eight-figure businesses. And he said that like if somebody is beating you in revenue, they are they are better at business than you. And like, I used to make all these excuses where it's like the same thing when I was talking about Brooke, right? Where it's like, oh well, his offer is better, and like they've got a bigger team and they're using ads and stuff, and I'm just doing this all organic. If someone is making more in revenue than you are, they're they're ahead of you skill-wise. And so, like, obviously, there's people that are way ahead of me, like in my industry, like in my vertical that are way like crushing me. But that's what drives me where it's like, okay, now like as of August, like I got a seven-figure month on the board. Like, that's cool. Meaning, like the next one that I'm gonna have to knock down is like it's gonna, it's gonna put me up a few notches, and like that's just what I care about.

Darren: 1:07:23

Just like putting up numbers specifically with and that's why I have kept the podcast, true and everything. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but that's why I've kept a podcast because like you know, I'm fucking scaling all day and I was like, okay, I want to have this conversation. I'm just gonna finish this conversation and go fucking double my ad spend, right? Because it's like someone who's younger than me can do it. In theory, why can't someone else do it? Right? And it's obviously there's like a skill deficiency, whatever, whatever. But at the end of the fucking day, it's just about getting a few different variables correct, and it's like, yes, that's a big play. And that was one of the reasons why I got into software, man, because my background was in engineering mildly, mildly. But that's what I did in school, right? And I was like, this is like a torn in my side, and I have a bit of capital to be able to invest in it. And I was like, okay, let's let's do this, right? Let's do this, let's do this with the info. It's it's a it's a typical hero arc, right? Alex Becker, Hyros, um it's all it's all of them, right? If you look at Umar Ashroff and TradeZilla, same shit. It's just you build info, get a shit ton of customers, build a software to help them because you're playing like a like a bigger game, and that's what keeps me in the game, dude. That's that's what keeps me like super, super excited. And what's interesting about that is if you want to have that kind of play, or even like you with real estate, that means you need to get even better at your info. You can't forget it, you have to get even better at it. So, even my team, they were like, So, like, how does like the marketing look for the other thing? And I was like, No, no, bro, like opposite, opposite. We need more customers and info, more clients to have more customers. Exactly it's beautiful, yeah. It's a beautiful little flywheel.

CardinalMason: 1:09:00

And that's what I was gonna say. It's like that's how you know you're in a good spot, is like when you have one main thing you're doing. The SaaS is not separate from the main thing, the info thing. You know what I mean? It all works together. Like you have you have the the main offer, and then you have a SaaS behind it, and maybe there's some sort of B2B play that you can do later down the line or something, something, you know what I mean? Like the best offers like have all of those things.

Darren: 1:09:21

Yeah, man. What would would you ever consider that for yourself? Because I like I know you're really like hard on like AI copywriting. One observation I've had, because like we're doing like an AI SaaS, but the difference is we're doing it on quantitative data versus qualitative. Let me give an example. So it's an AI SAS for sales, like it's like a really autistic like sales, uh AI sales coach, but it's for quantitative data. So if you looked at like a show rate, close right, it's very easy for us to do interpretations, but with AI text, it's very subjective. You could look at copy and think it's shit. I could look at copy and think it's great. I'm just curious because like you have that ecosystem of customers and brand that you could kill it.

CardinalMason: 1:10:03

Your SAS is it analyzes sales conversations, what you're saying?

Darren: 1:10:07

Yeah, so basically it's uh again AI sales manager. So basically, it's if you imagine your shitty CRM that doesn't even fucking work, it's automating all your sales goals, it's tracking it, it's managing it, and then with all the insights that we have of all your calls, it's running like analysis based on it, which is like, hey, like it's not cool that your show we're at super low. Here's your forecast for the month, here's how many calls you need. Um, so it's like a huge dashboard with like an AI sales coach built into it. Um, yeah, we already have like a shit ton of customers, like big sales teams and stuff. So we also run a big sales team too. So it's like it actually started for us, and then it's uh it's become quite good. And yeah, we're just gonna be doing like a lot of outbound getting good salespeople on. But the biggest the reason I'm saying this is because when you have the data, it's easy to do all the analysis. But we actually started, funnily enough, with a VSL builder, and that was a shit show because it was so subjective. Copy was so so difficult to analyze, it was so it was so difficult to come out with good copy because everyone has their own taste, right? And this is what I was kind of thinking for you is like it seems like there's a big opportunity here for you, but it seems like it would be much more complicated for you, basically.

CardinalMason: 1:11:20

It definitely is, and that's kind of why I've held off on doing any sort of like SaaS-related stuff. Like, dude, people were talking about like building like a copy MBA AI copywriting tool back like two years ago. And I was like, nah, man, like it only recently has gotten like to the point where it is actually good. And if you know how to prompt it properly, you can do whatever you want. Like, I gotta write a VSL because you were saying, like, after this podcast, you're gonna go like hop back in the ads manager. I gotta write a VSL. I need like a short VSL for this one funnel that we're gonna try out, and it'll probably be done in like an hour because there's like there's a whole system that like it can do exactly what you want if you know how to prompt it. And so I think the solution to the whole like, what are we gonna like turn into a SaaS for us? I actually, funny story, me and Ben, um, we were going to we were gonna build a SaaS starting at the beginning of the year. He pitched me the idea in January, and basically what we were gonna do was clone another tool that was starting to get a little bit of traction, it was really cool, it was really effective. And I was like, all right, let's do it. And so we we hired like real American devs and we brought in a CTO to build this thing, and we were spending around 15, 20k a month on uh on devs to like to get it up and running. And by the time that it was done, um, the other person that we were trying to copy was so far ahead that we couldn't it wasn't even worth launching. We were like, so we actually just cut our losses and we just like we we we couldn't even sell it for parts because no one wanted it. So we literally just like we took the rest of the money out of the bank account and closed down. And him and I together have both been thinking, like, what should we do? Like we should do something together. And uh there's one company right now that we've actually been talking to back and forth for a while on like just trying to figure out the right numbers because we're gonna get equity and we're gonna promote it. And um I think that that's probably gonna be the way we do. We're not gonna build it ourselves because like again, that that that costs a shit ton of money. Like, you have a background in this, so like you know, you know how to code, obviously, right?

Darren: 1:13:26

I know how to code, but similar to you, I brought in a Canadian developer and uh the guy's shit hot. He was like 10 years' experience in Shopify, and uh yeah, like it's super expensive. But the biggest thing is front end or like specifically front end, I have a good eye for you UI, like I've a good like design eye, so it's very easy for me to be like, oh, okay, it should look like this, and obviously I know the subject, which is sales, so that that was a big help, and then also being able to get our first customers now. Again, we're still pre-revenue, right? But we do have bro, I do have like 20 to 25 sales teams looking to pay anywhere between 500 and 1500 a month right now, so it's a fucking good position to be in. Just because like I just as we were talking right now, I just fucking love this shit, similar to you, but B2C, bro, it's a it's a dog fight. Actually, Eman said that to me. He was like, if you're gonna do something, don't do B2C software. He was like, it is the biggest dog fight of all time. B2B, easy, easier, yeah.

CardinalMason: 1:14:25

Because you go higher tickets.

Darren: 1:14:26

Sorry, E higher tickets. So again, a preface. Harder to get clients, but easier uh to reduce churn. Other way around, if you were to launch like a B2C TikTok fucking software, um a bunch of dumbasses who are 16 will get on and they'll hop on, hop off. So that's one of my uh one of my reservations with some of the like school softwares, you know, to integrate with, like um, for hormosy, is like you're gonna get a bunch of people to click on and click off, which is really fucking not good for the brand. Like it's it's actually extremely bad for the brand if you have people who click on and click off all the time. So there's just a lot of consideration with B2C stuff that you're not gonna get in B2B.

CardinalMason: 1:15:09

Yeah, yeah. I mean, bro, B2C across the board is tough. Um like uh, you know, uh Liskit.

Darren: 1:15:17

Yeah, that's dynophasio, right?

CardinalMason: 1:15:18

Yeah, so I mean the reason they were able to do so well is because they had a they had an offer that was in the thousands of dollars. So it obviously it's a SaaS, and I think it's credit based. I don't even know if it's a subscription SaaS. But they their intro offer was like a combination of like the actual software and of a service they're providing that people would pay $2,500 or $3K for that they were able to run ads to. So, like for most people who are trying to run ads to a $20 a month SaaS, there's no way you can't make it work unless you have billions of dollars of funding, or not billions, but you know, multiple figures of funding that you can just dump into ads and hope that you're profitable if you fix the churn problem on like month nine of these people, and like across you know, enough scale you can get it to work. But like for Liskit, um, they're good marketers, they know their their market, and the offer was really good. It was a setup, like a cold email setup offer that they they ran with, and that makes so much sense. And I wish I had some sort of business like that. Oh, by the way, they're gonna have a a nice check in a few years from now. Um, that I'm I think they've been pretty open about. But I mean, dude, that's my sort of dream business. You know what I mean? Like that would be awesome going B2B uh with a software that inherently has like way higher multiples than the stuff that you and I mostly do. Um, and then yeah, you're dealing with people who are mostly qualified, they all have businesses, they're not like you're not gonna have like random unemployed people in your funnel, it's just not relevant to them.

Darren: 1:16:55

Yeah, they're not they're not even gonna care about it, right? And I think it's something you made me to think of like if you're gonna do that play with yourself and Ben, is like we're gonna give it to our customers, our clients, for free for 90 days, onboard them, they're gonna use it. So everyone's gonna use it for free, they're gonna be using it anyway to track their sales calls and just look at their sales data. It's gonna be very like uh kind of gamified casino vibe so that like people can really see like progress that they're making, and then after like 90 days, if they move on to a subscription of like 250 a month, no one gives a shit, right? And if they have a bigger team, then it might be like 800 a month or whatever. So people want their life like you you wanna you wanna leverage what you have already, and then the thing about Lisp gets super interesting because that was a big thing that we wanted to do, which was coach people on their sales, like founder led sales, small sales team, which you've done a good job on, like it's part of our offer too. So we coach sales, teach them the fucking fundamentals, and then have this uh unilateral agreement, like info to SaaS, SAS to info, back and back and forth, back and forth. And uh, I think when that's like at scale, you're just gonna fucking kill it. So that's why I was saying for you, with all the customers that you have, everyone that's in your pipeline, you could really, really, really nail it.

CardinalMason: 1:18:11

Well, I think I'm in a unique position where it's like I I've been doing this a while, and I got I got fat CRM of a lot of people who are customers. And so the the company that we're probably gonna end up partnering with, it is B2C and it is low ticket, but I think for us it would make sense because number one, Ben and I aren't gonna have to front ads Ben. We're not gonna have to pay money for this, like we're just using our existing audiences organic and also paid. Like, what I could do is like, for example, like we spent on CallFunnel, we'll usually do like anywhere between 10 and 12,000 a day. And right now there's another funnel they're probably gonna spin up that'll be like another three to five, I think, probably by the end of the month. And um, like, dude, tens of millions of people see the ad. And like, even if they don't directly come from me, they like I can mention the name of the the product in the ad or in the VSL that another you know huge tranche of people are gonna land on. And like we can fill it just with that. And then especially if people are actually doing the business model, and I like I tell them that this is basically the required thing you have to get is you know $20 to $50 a month, whatever it is, then like we can get you know thousands of people in there, and it it wouldn't be too difficult. And so I think in my case, just because like we have so many eyeballs right now, it makes sense. Um, but like if if I had a more niche business, then I would definitely go the more like hands-on B2B play and and charge more for it. But I think like, yeah, at this point, like we can probably get away with doing B2C, but I I know ultimately like the what the thing that you guys are doing is probably like what makes more sense like economically.

Darren: 1:19:54

True, but again, it's it's it's audience size, right? Like, quite literally, the engagement that we get is probably like one to two percent, you know, considering well one percent considering the ads that you get, so it's it's a different level, it's a different fucking game, right? But what I to kind of give you some peace, right? I spoke with uh Jordan Platton recently. So Jordan's like a big like agency guy from like back in the day. We actually do his content, so in our agency, we we run his content on on Instagram, and um basically he said that all of his SaaS friends who are doing a million a month in SaaS, majority of it is paid, so they have self-liquidating funnels, they generally recoup everything within the first of two months, and then after that, then providing the product of products on shit, they're profitable, so everything's profitable from there. So some guys are spending 200k a month on the front end, making back like a million basically uh in that month, and then forever afterwards they're profitable because there's a bit of a mindset shift, right? Which is info, the rebuy rate is quite low, just in general. People just buy things and they're like, Oh, I thought it was forever. Whereas with SAS, like one itself-serve for the most part, unless you're doing like a high-ros model, and the second thing is then there's no interaction, so because like info, as you know, with the nine coaches you have or whatever the fuck it is, it's not actually like infinitely scalable unless you're selling like just a fucking ebook, but that's not the game that the industry is just not at that point anymore, right? There has to be people helping actual people in the trenches, otherwise, quite literally no one knows fucking anything.

CardinalMason: 1:21:23

Yeah, I mean, I I still think that like the majority of my money that I'm gonna make over the next like probably 10 years will be from info, and I don't even think it's gonna be from my info. I don't think it's gonna be from Carter Mason's copy of me. I I think like I've I've just learned so much over the last couple of years of how these businesses work, and I know that they're not going out of style, bro. People are gonna continue buying info, whether it's from me or you or from somebody else, it's always gonna be a thing that they will buy. It's been a thing since the 80s, bro. Before that, probably, but like that's what it went mainstream. You know, the the like Chinese guy who would do like infomercials, and like he was like literally the first ever guru, Tom Vu. I believe his name was. Tom Vu was in the 80s, he would like do infomercials, and he would be like, I'm rich, and he'd like have like two like baddies like with him, the same shit that like you see all the time. Like, he'd have like a nice car, he's like, I do real estate. I probably shouldn't be doing the accent, but go you know what I'm talking about. Where like he was like, he I think he was teaching real estate, or the fuck he was teaching. Yeah, look up Tom Vu.

Darren: 1:22:32

Dude, look at this guy. Look, that's him, and then like he's next to a video with Ty Lopez, and it's like real estate scammer who totally got away with it.

CardinalMason: 1:22:42

Yeah, so he was like oh so funny, man. Um, so like they were doing infomercials in the 80s, and they were doing like direct mail in the 90s, and then like right before 2010 is when they started doing it on on you know online, and uh it's never going away, man. I don't think that there's ever gonna be a a period in in humanity where people don't want to make more money or they don't want to lose weight or they don't want to figure out how to get laid or figure out how to do it. It's always gonna be a thing, and like there's infinite, there's infinite free content online for all of those things, and people are always gonna feel like there's something better that you might get if you pay for it, which is usually true, by the way. Like the stuff that I put out on YouTube isn't nearly as good as the stuff that I actually have inside the program. And also, it's important to note, just for anybody watching, I put a shit ton of time and money and effort into making the program really good. Like the product is good. Like, I started as a product guy, I care about that. So, like, these people aren't just getting sold bullshit, so they do get results, but the information to figure out how to do it yourself already exists. These people would rather pay just to get the fast track, and that's that's all that's just behavior like human behavior one-on-one, man.

Darren: 1:24:04

And again, right, info to pay for accountability, services to pay for implementation. That's never going away, even like even with AI, like you're still gonna need some fucking random dudes just be like actually there helping you. So, yeah, dude, like you again, you know, you said about info starting in the 80s, but university's been around forever, like education's been around forever, teaching has been around forever. So the concept, you know, you can go more meta, the concept of me implanting an idea into your head and teaching you something has always been around. So the but what's important here is adjusting with the times, which is the reason why kind of you know, fucking two hours ago I was saying you gotta keep keep up to date, which is like if it's more paid now, don't be resistant, jump at it. If your program needs an extra fucking four CSMs, don't be resistant, jump at it. Like, kind of do what's necessary and not what's asked of you, or not what's asked of industry. And this is a big thing that I've observed. Like, dude, we do we do coaching six, we have six coaching sessions a week. Fucking six, bro. And uh, like there, I do two, my another dude does two. I have a second program as well where I do three there, so it's basically like you know, I do five a week, basically. Um, the reason being is because people all over the world, we don't do that much in the community aspect, so we do more stuff on calls. I don't know, like you just you can do what's necessary. That might not work for your offer, doesn't fucking matter, right? It's just like what's actually necessary to get people the result and get out of your box, you know. That's the biggest thing here is get out of your box.

CardinalMason: 1:25:29

Yeah, I think one of the most valuable things I've ever learned is you know, a lot of people they'll double down and and work really hard and lock in when things are bad, like when numbers are going down. They're like, okay, this is this would be the time for me to fucking work harder. But it's usually the best time, like the best time to do that is when things are really good. And so, like, when you have, you know, a crazy record month, that's not the time to chill. You know, I mean, the the the time to chill, I don't know when the time to chill actually even is, but like this is the time when you need to double down, and like we all feel it. Like, I I can't slow down right now, sales manager can't slow down, media buyer. Like, we're all we're on calls like for hours a day, just like talking about this stuff, like figuring out like what the next move is. Like, you you can't stop because like you never know how long you have. I have a friend who um he's a talented kid, really smart guy, really good leader, like really good, uh, really good speaker. People love this guy, and he's got a he's got a program that has made people hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. Biza. And he's he's killed it. He started back a couple years ago, and for a while he was doing anywhere between three and 500k a month with almost no marketing, only word of mouth. So, what would happen was he did his first little launch, I guess, got a couple hundred people in there, and they start making some of them are making you know $10,000 to $30,000 a month, some are making like over $80,000, some are making over $100. Like regular people, you know, I mean, not a crazy case. And they start just telling everyone they know because it's like, dude, I I don't know how this happened. I just joined this program, I started doing this guy town, I started making like uh you know tens of thousands a month, and so for like almost a year, didn't post on TikTok, didn't post on Instagram, didn't tweet, didn't post on YouTube, didn't do anything. Well, he would post on YouTube, it'd just be case studies of people making like you know 50 grand a month in their first month or some stupid shit like that. I'll tell you what it is after. Um, but yeah, and then like he didn't do anything, it was all word of mouth doing 500k a month. And now the obviously the the leads like people aren't you know doing that as much as they were, and now he has to like be a marketer again and he hasn't had to do that, he hasn't really had to work in like a year. And like he keeps saying, like, dude, I wish I just like did this stuff, like I wish I went all in when it was easy, like I wish like when I was getting all that word and mouth. Like if I took, you know, if I'm getting basically free half a million dollars a month and like throw a hundred of that in ads, like what would happen? Or if I just like poured some gas on the fire and started making content, like what would what would have happened? Like, would I have been doing two mil a month? You know what I mean? Like, you have no idea it was possible.

Darren: 1:28:22

You need to double down.

CardinalMason: 1:28:23

That window is kind of gone. And again, like we we talked about it, like organic has gotten much harder, nowhere near as easy to get attention as it was two years ago. And uh yeah, man, you really gotta make hate with the sun shines.

Darren: 1:28:34

Yeah, man. That's a great point to finish up on. Well, dude, you're a fucking legend. This was so awesome. Um, such a great podcast, so random, so much different random shit. Hopefully, we're getting back to America soon. So hopefully we can do like a big, a big studio session next time in person, or just do something from like a balcony or some shit. Like a lot of my best podcasts are literally just like in the balcony.

CardinalMason: 1:28:55

Go to the penthouse. We can hang out on the on the little terrace in there. Yeah, man. Um, we can go grab a bunch or whatever, man. It's great. I appreciate the pod.