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Kickoff Sessions
Weekly podcast episodes with the sharpest minds in the world to help you live a richer & more fulfilling life.
Previous guests include Luke Belmar, Justin Waller, Sahil Bloom, Gad Saad, Peter Schiff, Stirling Cooper, Jack Hopkins, Sadia Khan, Matt Gray, Daniel Priestley, Richard Cooper, Justin Welsh, Arlin Moore and more.
Kickoff Sessions
#307 Tom Sparks - How to Build a 7-Figure Coaching Business
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(00:00) Preview
(00:40) Building Partnerships for Long-Term Success
(01:32) Lessons in Leadership
(04:11) The Process of Mastery
(08:23) Breaking Down Decision Making Processes
(10:24) The First Principles of Scaling
(15:15) Teaching vs Mentoring
(17:34) How Trust, Emotion, and Logic Drive Conversions
(22:33) Using Market Awareness to Refine Your Offer
(26:14) Why You Need Clarity in Marketing
(28:44) Why Every Entrepreneur Has an Offer Problem (and How to Fix It)
(34:10) How to Level Up Your Entrepreneurial Game
(37:37) How Personal Growth Shapes Business Growth
(41:58) Redefining Sales as Service
(47:16) How to Build Offers
(50:22) The Reality of Staying Motivated
(54:04) How to Attract Clients Through Content
(56:01) The Coaching Flywheel
(56:50) Offers, Content, and Sales
(58:03)The Three Archetypes of Mentorship
(59:55) The Creator vs. Entrepreneur Dilemma
When people want to sell coaching or info, they think, oh no, I need to be the coach or the teacher. And I think, no, no, no. You can walk people through how you're doing it right now, providing you believe in it.
SPEAKER_00:If you're like trying to be overly persuasive in your content and speak to people like they're idiots, you're going to attract people who are idiots.
SPEAKER_01:Be clear, not clever, and anyone can be clear, especially if you learn how to think and learn how to write. I really don't like the whole idea of it's like a marketing company or it's like a sales company. You gotta fix the bottleneck. Once you figure out where your bottleneck is, you just solve that and then it's whack-am-woh. Something else is gonna pop up. Firstly, man, before we start, I wanna say a big thank you for everything. And I'm super excited that you're now a co-owner of Voix. Yeah. Well, it makes you really happy.
SPEAKER_00:Makes me really happy, man. It's uh what we're building, the vision, it's uh yeah, there's so much to get into. And do you know how long we've been working together? On and off, I think kind of written agreement-wise, probably over 18 months, and then I think on and off before that, like ad hoc, probably two, three years now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that literally feels yeah, like fucking five.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, it started because I well, we we went up a mountain together, which is how all good relationships start. Well, no, sauna session, yeah, then mountain, then um podcast, which is the trifecta of how to start a good relationship with someone. Um, and then yeah, I remember in Bangkok you was on your pod, and then I said to you afterwards, I was like, okay, this was the most fun I've ever had. Like, how do I do this all the time? Um, and yeah, you kind of really helped me a lot there, and then just things started to sort of sync up in the line and yeah, develop to a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01:But honestly though, like I would literally not be here if it wasn't for you, genuinely. Because I don't think I'd have the I don't think I'd have like the outside opinion on a few things. Like one, like the expertise of like how to build education at a high level, and then two, like the emotional side, you know, because like before I met you, I was like really erratic with stuff. I still am really erratic, but I mean like negatively, like it was like impacting like client relationships, it would impact like the business and so on. Whereas I feel like the past couple years, like working together closely on it, it was like it was just making sure that things were just clicking really well, and they just have. Does that make sense? And that's why I'm like I'm really like grateful for the next phase of what we're doing together because it's just it's it's all values aligned, you know what I mean? And I think that's the biggest feedback, is like, and obviously, like the other partner Piyuch is like we're all just like one incentive aligned, and then two, it's like values aligned, which is the reason why it works. Because like, dude, if you're gonna sell in for agency, you should you can't do it with someone who's similar to you. Like, it's just it's literally totally terrible, it's a terrible idea. So it has to be dissimilar, but bringing like insane expertise, which for you is like the education, uh the mindset side, which is hugely under, under like uh not valued, but under like um visualized. Like people don't people don't even see that initially. That's a huge part of what you do, people as well, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think I love it. It's this this learning by osmosis as well, because again, we're gonna get into so much today about uh you know, into the weeds of what we're doing and yeah, the exciting plans for the future as well. But I think one of the things I reflect back is like, yes, it's really important to have your zones of genius, um, which I definitely think will be without out of a shadow of doubt, is what has happened. Um, and we've stepped more and more into that, but also like the ways I have leveled up through kind of osmosis of being around you as well, things that I didn't have watertight like before, like personally as well, and with my own like businesses in the past, things where like I wasn't watertight, and then just seeing like how you operated over years and like the watertightness of things, like the systems like that. I was like, holy shit, like that's why. Like, it's just you know, so watertight, watertight is like the right word to describe it. It's like how this all connects it makes me better, and it's yeah, is it's it's a lot to be said for that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because if you have two guys doing the same thing, it's it's it's not that's not gonna work, it's just that you're not getting the most out of it. You get me? Whereas like I always say to Lisa's like what you bring is like it's like something that you almost can't put your finger on, but that's why it works. Like it's the Rick Rubin effect, right? It's like how he shows up and he like looks like a keyboard and he's like that one, yeah. And then you hear it and you're like, I don't know why, but that's the reason why it works.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it's uh it's often, and this is something I've had to step into as well, is like owning my own value with things because like a lot of the work I do, like I'm always working, but it doesn't always look like work traditionally. Like, do you know what I mean? It's like everything I'm like reading, it all fits again. This is kind of like the Rick Rubin effect, and I always think of the story of Picasso, where like um some lady said, like, I'm gonna pay you a hundred thousand for a bit of artwork, and he was like, Yeah, no problem. And he just literally pulled out a bit of paper and like drew a circle and was like, Oh, there, there you are. And she was like, That took you 10 seconds, and um, why would I pay 10,000 for that? And he said, No, madam, that took me my whole life, and it's this whole idea of like the weight of your experiences. If you are that person who is committed to growth and mastery in particular domains, like it's that's why like Rick Rubin can go, mm-mm, get rid of that, add this. Who, like, oh shit, yeah. It's like taste perspective, and it's that's a lifetime of work coming out in a sentence, and it's I think that can be hard for people to sometimes like appreciate as well, but and also there's a people people who can fake it as well. Um, but yeah, I'm always reminded of that Picasso story as well, and like noticing that within people.
SPEAKER_01:Before we move any further, I have one short question to ask you. Have you been enjoying these episodes so far? Because if you have, I would truly appreciate it if you subscribe to the channel to help more business owners grow their online business today. Do you think you said that you learned to appreciate that about yourself? Like it was something you had to come into terms with. Similar to myself, man, it was like, what am I best positioned to do? Which is probably sell, like, is the sales side and kind of the operation side, actually, funnily enough, the back end side, which people I guess don't really realize. But do you think that that's like a real curse that people don't realize? It's a curse granted knowledge, but it's also just like looking at your expertise as it is, and saying, like, okay, yeah, there is a hundred K business here or a million business here because they don't value themselves, one, and then two, they don't have the reflection, like you do a lot of internal reflection.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so what I've considered something about myself that again, exactly like you said, I've had to uh understand my value and present that to other people. Is like I am a very uh deep thinker about things, and yeah, oftentimes even with Julia, my girlfriend as well, she'll ask me a question and I'll sit there like this, and she'll be like, Hey, you're gonna answer me. I'm like, thinking, and like I like uh she she feels that gap sometimes, and I'm like, if I'm going to say something, I do actually think about it. Like I'm I want it to be the reflection of like what I actually believe. I don't want to just say noise. You know what I mean? I want to like you've asked me, so I'm like, okay, so I see that, and then one of the things I found when I was working with like a lot of clients um on retainer, I had to limit the amount of clients I would work with this a couple of years ago, because the someone like myself, it's like the the mental capacity that takes is a huge weight because it's not it's like it's always there on the back burner, and then it's like you kind of park it and then something comes up and it's like ah, that suddenly all makes sense now, and it's like always present. So if you take on too many clients at a low price, it's like it's such a heavy burden. It's it's so it's it's like something that I've yeah had to develop over time and realize that and in terms of like developing it, it's um I don't know, I uh uh I don't know where it it comes from. I think it's I think it's just like that, yeah, like it's from observation of a lot of things, observing people, and um I think music as well is a big part of it. It's like because music forces you to listen, and like I always used to get really uh frustrated with people who wouldn't listen to music, like I'd be like, Oh, listen to this song, and then they start talking. I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? Like it's magic, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, and but uh, this is what I was gonna say. Listening and thinking are two of the hardest skills that people don't actually know how to do. People don't know how to listen, like listen to something, feel it, and then to think as well. When's the last time you sat for 10 minutes and like actually thought that the the energy to actually think through something? Yes, you can get caught in overthinking and perfectionism, but I big believer it's one of the hardest skills that people don't actually have actually thinking.
SPEAKER_01:You know the Henry Ford quote hardest job in the world to do is to think, which is why most people don't do it. Yep, it's crazy, man. What do you think about the antithesis of that though? Which not the thinking part, but it's kind of like me where it's I don't ruminate, I don't think I don't I don't uh procrastinate and I would be heavily focused on decision. Yep. And what I said to Elizabeth, one of our clients, because like she is like a mindset coach, to strip it back. Um I said that if I have it if I have a choice between two different decisions, two different options, I'll just pick one and I'll never I've never thought about oh, but what if I pick the other one? Because I'll either make that one work or I'll just make a change to make a option A work, but in a different way. What's what's your just thoughts on that? I'm just curious.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think whether you realize it or not, I think you're heavily guided by intuition, and I think that's a muscle that you've built over from experiencing you over many years, it's a muscle that you've built, and it's actually very, very strong. So it's like it's actually like a more feminine trait, but it's like we all have both. We're like we it's actually a good, well-developed trait that you have, and it's that idea that action precedes clarity and the path illuminates as you walk it. I think over time now you are so trusting within your own capability to make something work that you know that the worst decision you can make is no decision at all because you know for a fact by just making a decision that you will that next step will illuminate and you'll learn and grow and make a better decision. Like because we're constantly making decisions. I think you have a very I think you have actually a very well you you have a very good read on people as well. I think because you've spoken to so many people, you have a very, very good read on people. I think you have a good intuition um with things, and I think you have a strong um uh belief muscle because you've you know you you've made things true through action um over and over again. So that's like what would be my reflection um back at you.
SPEAKER_01:I think the the way that I look at it though, and it's what I try to like teach people is it's first principles. It's like let's say, let's say with our business, I'll give an example. So with the incubator, we had a problem, which was it was duration-based and it was results-based. So when they when they finished the result and they got to the result of like, let's say they got to like a revenue target and they made like multiple six figures, uh, it was over. It was just over for them. And that's where most people would be like, oh my god, my business is like unscalable, I can't make more money, I don't know what to do. But it was a first principle nature for me, which is like, how do I one get better results for people, and then two, how can I increase how much money they're gonna spend with us, which will infer how good their business is and it'll infer how good our business is. Let's create a back-end offer. And it was just like a very like logical thing. It was like, okay, now that they've achieved goal A, which is an amazing goal, let's get them to goal B. And I think like a lot of guys would literally spend like five years trying to like plan it and whatever. And I was just like, no, no, no, we'll just get them to the next goal. And it's like a very foundational thing. First principles, they want to achieve something great, what what's happening there? And then obviously we layered them with the theory of constraints and so on, but it's kind of like a mental model, but it's funny because part of like self-actualization is knowing where you sit, like doing like a personality test or whatever. Now I'm very new to that premise still, but it has even helped me to identify where my downfalls are, which is kind of why I like I love us working together on things because absolutely you should be improving your downfalls, but in like a business sense, you can just you can just have someone do that for you, you know. Now you still need to work on it as like a human, but I mean, like from a business context, when there's like actual money involved, it's like you could just get someone else who's just amazing, hire someone, get someone as a coach, bring someone in, systematize it, replace it, eliminate it. Does that make sense? Yeah, so that's kind of the way that I try to think about things, especially because we're like a little bit further on our business than most people, and it's like at this point now, that's my mental model for almost everything.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So the way I interpret everything you just said about okay, we had the incubator and then we had uh, you know, how do people kind of ascend? Yes, it's helping people solve different problems, but I think what we really shifted is that look, when people buy a course or they buy a product, they get the value almost immediately. It's like if if all you're selling is information within a course, um, then that goes down. It's like then in 16 weeks' time or in three months' time, you're like, hey, do you want to renew? People are like, well, no, because I got the course. So whether we realized it or not, I believe what we changed was it's, and this is why proximity offers are so powerful, is because, oh no, we've we've given you like this bare bones of like a course. Um, and one of the things like uh we we worked really hard on this. I mean, in this studio, well, maybe three, four months ago now, we made 3.0 of the course, and we were like, how do we make this as short and efficient as possible? We've still got all the other material people can consume uh to get into, but the actual structure, and there's a great quote as well. Again, it's not Henry Ford, but he's all I can think of now. I can't remember who it was, it might be Emerson. But he's he said, Um, um I would have written a shorter letter, but I didn't have the time. And it's that idea that consolidating knowledge and making it concise and consumable takes more effort than just rambling and just like, yeah, here's all this and da-da-da. We're like, no, actually going through with a fine-toothed cone, condensing things is part of the service. So there's that, but then the other aspect of it as well, and we spoke about this at our last mastermind is that when we're a child, 85% of our learning, 85% of the impact we have from those those around us have on us is through osmosis, is through imitation. That's learning psychology. Okay. And then when we're an adult, it's 50 to 55% of the impact um that is had through a mentor is um through imitation still. So it's like, yes, your course, your infrastructure, your implementation that you have is very impactful for people. But I think the real thing that has shifted with us is like we're giving that opportunity for proximity to see how we're doing things. Because again, I spend more time around you. Things get done quicker in my life. Like just premature of knowing you as a friend, I'm like, oh yeah, fuck, I could just do that now. Like rather than like contemplate about it and like, like, which is something that's I can think about it, which is a trap I can fall into, is like um, so like for me, that's been super so for me, like viewing you like that, it's like, oh, that makes my life better. And it's like, yes, you have the course, the structure, but it's like, okay, people really want that continued access and proximity to someone because you just absorb their energy by osmosis. And this is why the most powerful thing you can do, and this is where a lot of mentors and like gurus go wrong. The most powerful thing you do is embody what you actually teach. And it's crazy to say that that, like, oh, you actually embody what you teach, you take your own medicine, you know, um, because that's when people actually get the results, is because they feel it. They're like, oh, we I feel how you are operating. I can mimic that, you know, even if I don't fully understand it, I can like receive that by osmosis and mimic it. And that's why people want the proximity.
SPEAKER_01:Are you an agency owner, coach, or consultant looking to scale your online business? At Volks, we help business owners scale their online business with content. We help them specifically build a high-ticket offer, create content that turns into clients, and also help them with the sales process to make sure every single call that's booked in your calendar turns into a client. If you want to see more about exactly how we do this, hit the first link down below and watch a full free training on how smart entrepreneurs are building a business in 2025. And that's the difference between teaching and mentoring. Yep. So teaching is I learned this rule book, this book on maths, and here's how to do addition. The teacher doesn't do addition every day in his own personal life, but mentoring is looking over your shoulder, being like, This is how I'm doing this right now. This is exactly how I'm rolling it out, and this is my results and my logic. And then someone looks at it and thinks, okay, that's great. And that allows you to have refinement. So the funny thing is when people want to sell coaching or info, they think, oh no, I need to be the coach or the teacher. And it's like, no, no, no, you can walk people through how you're doing it right now, providing you believe in it. It was like, what is a validated concept? What am I doing with that? And then how can I show other people how to do it? And like, dude, that's the best thing. That's what my program Apex is is I'm just doing something right now. Here's how I'm building out the VSLs, this is what's working. Do you want to see it? Like, I recorded an origin story video here, and I wrote out the kind of the script, the outline, I guess, and the reference videos that I have in there, and I'm just gonna give that to my clients and be like, look, this is mine, it has no how-to guide for you, but you can read it, have an idea, just implement it yourself. You know, you're like the way I say things is like a lot of people, they're big boys, right? They're adults, and you have to do two things. One, you have to have discernment to understand is this contextually correct for me right now? That's self-awareness and that's emotional intelligence that unfortunately I can teach you. You have to develop it and open yourself up to. That's one side of it, and then the other side of it then is like purely looking at things like contextually, being like, Can I add can I add my own flavor to what's going on here? Versus like if you're trying to follow a rule book, even even if you're like an agency client, like we have many agencies that provide services to us, if you just follow their rule book and then you're like doesn't work, you're screwed. Yep, screwed everything you do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the most uh a few things we can riff on here. Number one is if you're like trying to be overly persuasive and in your content and speak to people like they're idiots, you're going to attract people who are idiots. Like, uh I don't know. I'd I'd like to get into like levels of awareness and how things have shifted. And then the other thing um there is um yeah, is it's like so there's a few things we can kind of like tap on there. It's like understanding the level of awareness of who you're speaking to and believing that people you're attracting are self-led, like people who like they want to get closer to you, or just giving them the option. It's like, well, this is how you do it. It's like you don't need to be like, yes, the content is in place to get like the yeses that you need, but you are attracting by the way that you're speaking and way that you're coming across, people who are self-led, and like they are smart enough to see how being close to you will get them certain results. And then that's where I see a lot of people go wrong. It's like if you're trying to be like overly nuanced within your marketing message and say things in a particularly persuasive way, people are like, Yeah, I yeah, I really like you. I'm like smart enough to see like what the results you're getting are like, yeah, be cool to get close to you. Thanks, just tell me how to get closer. Be clear, not clever. Be clear, not clever. And then I I think that comes back to like I think what's an interesting reflection to people as well is to look at. So there's three yeses that you need to get people to buy. And it's like, do I believe this person? Okay, do I feel this person? And like, do I trust this person? So a lot of the time at the moment, we want um like a mechanism to cover one of those, and we want our content to cover the other two. So the way I suggest that we're probably doing that at the moment is like, do I feel this person and do I trust this person? That's coming out through a lot of like the content putting out, and then the do I believe this person, that's through our conversion mechanism. It's like you want to see the results, you want to sign up for like uh VSL, our free training. Like that's kind of like the logical part where we're like, okay, do you believe us? Like, yes, look, here's all the results. Okay. So what I noticed was back in the day, you remember like those almost like I'm not gonna say Russell Brunson because it wasn't him, but people following that structure, you'd see an ad on Instagram or Facebook where it's like, hey, I've discovered this like new thing of like selling PDFs to like old women, and I'm in here and Dubai now, and it's made me like a hundred thousand last week. Like, if if you want, I've got free training about how it works. And like it was this very kind of low level of awareness appealing to people who wanted that quick fix. Now, the it still followed the three yeses, but I'm gonna explain this because then you can see how things have changed, or depending on your your market's level of awareness, you can then adjust it. So initially, you could you would have this claim about a new mechanism that's working. So this is fulfilling the do I believe you logical yes. Look, oh, I found this new mechanism. Like, oh, and because you're unaware of just the market in general, you hear something like that from an authority figure and you go, Oh, okay, I think I believe them. Like it's like a scientist, it's like somebody wearing a lab coat. It's like, oh yeah, you need to take this injection. Like, you're like, okay, I believe you, okay, just because of your low-level awareness. Then if you look at their VSLs, they've they've they've hooked you with the logical yes, and then you look at their VSLs, they're the ones you can't fucking skip, like, and they're however long, but like, okay, look, I'm gonna show you how I've like made a million with like PDFs, like arbitrage, whatever. Um, but first, let me go back to when my wife was about to leave me and the kids, and we were living in a and like they draw and this this story, oh my god. And then like, but they go deep into that, and then the next bit, and look, this PDF shit, like, and look at Natasha, this worked for her, and then look, and then they spend another 10 minutes. So their VSL, their conversion mechanism is the other two yeses. It's like, do I feel this person? They hit the storytelling emotional, then they hit the trust. Oh, look at my testimonials, look at all of this. So they do get the three yeses, but that important logical one, which because it is kind of scammy, those things, like that logical one, you you kind of have bypassed that decision initially because you were like, oh, that sounds like it will work. And then you get hit with the emotional, then you get hit with like the trust aspect, and then you're like, uh,$99, oh an upsell, okay. And there's like a fuck, I spent like whatever,$7,200. Yeah. How did that happen? But the way it's shifted with content is those yeses still exist. You still need to get those yeses. But the content that comes out on YouTube, on Instagram, it's that, do I feel this person? Is there an emotional resonance? Is that coming across? Yes, okay, I'm gonna keep listening. Then it's like, um, do I trust this person as well? What are the values of this person? Then after you trust someone and you feel them, like, oh, he gets me. That he there's a sense of empathy between the two of us. Um, he feels I feel he I feel like he understands like some of the problems I'm going through. Um and then there's the trust. Then that's when you have the conversion mechanism, which is like, you know, the VSLs, cool funnel, what however you set that up. That's the logical side of things. Hey, if you actually want to find out how we do this, we've actually given a free training. But it's flipped, right? As the market level of awareness goes up, because they got burnt, they now need to see that the trust is there and like the empathy is there from people. And that's why like content and the way it's set up at the moment is working for a particular level of awareness. You can probably still do the scammy thing as well, if you want to take that and like run with it. It probably still works. Um, but that's kind of like the psychology of why it works and why those people feel burnt afterwards.
SPEAKER_01:And it's interesting because it's about who you're selling to, because in what we do, it's basically B2B, right? It's business owners, even though they could be younger and earner journey, they are business owners. So guys that are in like to make money online space or the info product space, whatever you want to describe it, they've seen this stuff. So they've either come through the era of Russell Brunson, maybe Ty Lopez, maybe like Iman, Luke Bellmar, and they've seen the stuff that have made a lot of money, so they're a bit more aware of it. But dude, if you're selling B2C, like they haven't seen any of that stuff. And this is quite interesting to think about because one way to assess like how smart your market is, is to look at how much do they know about AI. There's some people that don't even know what chat GPT is to this day, like literally, just random guys going around Tesco picking up fucking donuts in Tesco. They have no idea what ChatGPT is, it's hilarious. Then you have some guys that who know what chat GPT is, then you some guys know what other tools are, and it's like how up to date are they with just global trends? What's a global trend? And if they're out of sync, yeah, the$9 ebook, whatever. But for the most part, people are like adapting really high. Now, I like to look at levels of awareness actually from another angle, which is that's human. Have you ever thought about topic? So I speak to a lot of guys uh in the incubator specifically around this because they might have like, let's say, I'll give you an example. Let's say they might have like a a like let's just use like a stress, right? So reducing stress, improving mental clarity offer for entrepreneurs. The issue with an offer like that is someone who's an entrepreneur who's making seven figures, eight figures a year, they don't know they're stressed, and they don't know that the topic is important because they're so in it, you're in the weed so much that as a result you've bypassed the issue that you have because you're just so living it. And also because your like maybe like stress tolerance is so high that you've completely forgotten about it. Another example is I truly believe that anyone who's 500 pounds doesn't think that they're overweight. I truly believe it because if they knew it, they would make the jump. And another equivalent is which is like close to me, is people that with alcoholism they don't think that they have an alcohol issue because if they did, they wouldn't be having an alcohol issue. They can't they can't assess it. So the reason why I say those examples is because whenever you're selling, you need to bring up people's levels of awareness of the topic. So layer one is I produce content on this, layer two is I have logical guides and tactical train trainings. Level three is like I have long form, short form. Level four is here's the VSL. Level five is let's take a call on it. And it's like I do believe that for your prospect, let's take the example of the entrepreneur for them to buy an offer on how to improve their mental clarity and reduce stress, they need to go the whole way up with you, not even with someone else, actually, specifically with you, because you gotta see, does this work? Is the mechanism actually gonna work? Is there like social proof around it? Is there logical buying in this? And most importantly, can I see myself solve this problem, whatever that may be, with this thing? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it is important to stinch, you're so right, and it's this is where people can go wrong is if you're selling to a market who needs education, but you're selling a uh kind of like an offer that is like so it's like where are they on the level of awareness? Are they problem aware? If they're not problem aware, then your content is going to be more educational. But then if they're already like solution aware and they're like product aware, then that's very different than how you market it. You're talking to people who already have a certain level of understanding, and I think that's where a lot of people can get stuck is they're like they make like very service level educational content, but that's a very different offer to someone who's actually already has a certain level of awareness.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I think to take a separate step back, like anyone with their marketing, this is easier, right? And the reason why I'm saying about this, and the reason why I believe it's so I believe a few things to be completely true, which is be clear, not clever, and anyone can be clear, especially if you learn how to learn how to think and learn how to write. And the reason why I know this is true is because I had like I was very grateful to be mentored by Imam Gadzi. And the number one reason why they've made the most money ever in the past two years was because they went away from all the analogies and euphemisms and the puppet masters. Like I was literally told by him and his team that that was great, amazing script writing, but it wasn't making them as much money as possible. Instead, they went to problem you're broke and you want to make money and you don't want to work on 905, solution, digital products. And they had spent four years script writing, having this amazing uh tone and you know, message and clear clarity, and also loads of visuals and animations, just chopped it all in one go, went problem solution, problem solution. That's like the core of any type of good copywriting and marketing, and it's easy. So for us, it's like your business is not doing as well as you want to, you're not making as much money as you want to. Here's how to make more money. It's quite literally, and then it's like, okay, yeah, we'll teach you sales, we'll help you your content, we'll improve your offer. But it's given me so much clarity to be like, this is actually ten times easier than people make it out to be. That's another point as well that I really want to stress, right? Is like a lot of these like personal brand gurus, like they try to make this shit way more complicated than what it is, so that you won by their stuff, but to put them on a pedestal, but like I want to get your opinion on this. Like, how we got the seven figures and more was just by being extremely direct to people. You have this problem, we'll fix it in this way, there's no fucking guarantees. The only guarantee is that there's no guarantees, we will work with you closely on it, we'll do everything that we can to get you to that goal. And I think people appreciate the complete lack of bullshit. And it's just like, look, man, like there's there's no there's no way that we can guarantee it's gonna work, but I guarantee you that if you follow what we've done with hundreds of entrepreneurs, it's gonna work, you know. And I think I don't know, like what's your kind of take on that? Because like I have different angles on this, and obviously there's multiple variables why things work for us and other clients too that we work with, but one thing is the specificity in terms of what we can give someone, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So I think like one of the convictions we definitely have is that it's not about like what's right, it's about what's right for you. Yes. And yes, again, because we've had quite a breadth of experience, we have done a lot now that we can we we can be like with someone. It's like, hey, you need to be sales heavy right now, right? Actually, you need to be marketing heavy right now. And it's like the the the one conviction I believe we have is like we're gonna figure out what your this is what the best, in my opinion, the best mentors do is like they help you understand what your own mission and your own business looks like, and gives you the confidence to actually go ahead and manifest and create that. And it's not like, hey, here's the rigid structure, you have to follow this X, Y, and Z, because it it's about that, like, and this is why I believe we're more principles. It's like offers, content, and sales. Like, that's where it fits in. And it's like, I mean, we've had some clients where I'm like, hey, for example, we have a pro rugby player that we work with. Like, I'm like, yeah, with you, you shouldn't you personally should not be active in the DMs as much as someone who is uh but because you have a certain level of prestige. The the we need to reflect that within your whole so this is the this and again, we have another client, but we've got countless examples. My brain's firing now. Like your front end has to match the back end, so we had. Another client who worked with like a very, very well known, um, like very prestigious like mindset coach. Like, I saw the testimonials, like, they work with some of like the biggest, he's like the mindset coach of mindset coaches, like some huge people who you have seen on social media. This guy is their coach. Um, and like all of their testimonials are like, bro, this guy is amazing, he changed my life. I was like, sick. And then I looked at the content and I was like, this content does not reflect the back end at all. You're because what this guy is doing, he's trying to be overly salesy, persuasive, and like too in your face. Whereas he doesn't need to do that because of like a lot, the the the results he has, the weight he has in testimonials, he just needs to capture what he's doing on the back end and put it on the front end, and people will feel that, they'll resonate with that, but like, holy shit, this is good shit. But he's like trying to be persuasive to get people in. And it's the other thing with the prorugby player we had. I'm like, bro, you have loads of fucking respect. Like, the more you spend time fucking harassing people in like DMs, like, the less respect they have for you. So, how do we create something where that level of respect that you have is maintained? But that's not the same for everyone because everyone's got a different position that they come in with. So it's like we have all of these principles and we understand sales psychology. And the whole goal is like, how do we make people aware of you? How do they get people closer into your world? How can we create the least amount of friction to make that possible that they can get close? For some people, you could probably even have just have a stripe link in your bio. I don't know. Like you could, you know, if you have that level of prestige, like Ty Lopez, maybe, well, maybe a bad example right now, but someone who has like a huge amount of prestige, you can just go, Oh, yeah, this is how you do it. Like, and you just it it's the process is the same every single time. How we get there depends on your unique situation. And I think that's the thing that has separated us is that it's like we're not just like you have to follow this rigid tip system, which can feel very constrictive. It's like, here are the principles, these are where the holes are at the moment. Okay, we need to go content heavy with you right now, and the way you're expressing through content is not right at the moment. So it's that's the way I see it.
SPEAKER_01:That's the way I think a lot of the programs that are very linear, like you gotta do this, you gotta do this, you gotta do this, is bullshit. Because everyone has a different background, different mindset, different learning ability. Like some guys are like they learn straight, some guys need a bit more coaching and so on. And it's funny because if you look at Jack that's in Apex, Jack was doing like pretty well. He was in like 30k, 40k a month as a fitness coach, and we've just worked with him on a sales process, so nothing else. Put in two closers, and now even before the closers are ramped, he did like 60k, 65k. I woke up this morning and I was like, I should really check in on that guy to see how his content's doing because we just spent so long doing a sales site, and now it's like, okay, now he now that's like done. It's kind of teed up, and now it's like, all right, let's go back to get leads. And I think this is why I I really don't like the whole idea of like it's like a marketing company or it's like a sales company. It's like you gotta fix the bottleneck. Once you figure out where your bottleneck is, you just solve that, and then it's whack-a-mo. Something else is gonna pop up, you know. So the simple example is like if the sales is if like so I I think like we are heavier on a sales side, and the reason why I'm heavier on the sales side is because you can have the best offer in the world, the best content in the world, but if you can't close a client, you're screwed. And then likewise you go back upstream, then it's like okay, once the sales is dialed in, you can have good content and you just gotta refine your offer, and it's easy. So that's why I like going, I like to go full spectrum, like left to right and pan left to right. And I guess like to add a bit more detail on this is the reason why I'm like so big on this is because even before you joined us, we were just doing content, so even with the agency, which we still have to this day, it was just content with agency, and the feedback was always the same, which is this is great, Darren. I'm great to see like the I'm great to see the YouTube analytics, but we're not making money money from it. And I'm like, Oh yeah, you just put in an offer, and they're like, What's an offer? So we solved that issue, and then uh what I think is funny is like everyone uh universally thinks that they don't have an offer issue, whereas everyone has an offer problem, unless you're making 100k a month, you have an offer problem, right? Uh and a clarity of their offer, and then it was like fix that issue, so offer and continent, and then we realized that universally everyone had a sales issue, and it's like okay, now you have a sales call issue, but you're getting a ton of leads, you have a sales ops issue, and I think, yeah, it just was a big kind of unlock for me to be like you don't need to be an expert in everything, but you do need to understand exactly where the gaps are in your business.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's it's the video game analogy I like to think of. It's the skill skill trees. The way we like have uh positioned incubator 3.0 as well. Uh we spoke about this in the mastermind. It's like we have the launch sequence, which is like, let's get you into orbit, and then we're in orbit. And then when we're in orbit, there's these certain areas that we're continually fine-tuning. It's not this, like you said, it's not a linear thing, it's like A B. Like, when has that ever happened in your life where you've just like done an A to B transformation? It's like, no, you have these cycles that we're constantly going through, and it's like the better you get at attack, the better then your defense lacks. It's like you just you're but that you only realize that you're because you've now got better at a certain attack, like you now know that your defense needs to get sharper because you're now like closer in. Like I'm thinking of fighting analogies right now, but it's the same with offer content sales. It's like because my officer got better, and it's like it's a vortex, it's as it's a isn't there's always gonna be problems, like spoiler, spoiler, like it's gonna continue to be problems, and this it's what you want. Um, but it's like this idea of like you're becoming this well-rounded um character. And yeah, initially you might come into a program and it's like, okay, actually, yeah, like I'm sales weak right now, I've over-indexed on these other two skill trees. Um, and I think that's what we've identified. It's like, right, what is the skill tree for this result you want? It's not like how do we A B force you up there? It's like these are the characteristics we need to embody and the skill trees that we need to sharpen. And then by virtue of like being someone who's sharp with these skills, the result happens because you're just good at those skills. So like that's like the way I like to think about it. And I think, yeah, the the the the I mean we say it's like it's a it's a personal problem, it's a development problem. And this is like that's what's exciting for me, is like whenever I look at someone's come to us with a problem, it's like, okay, like let's look at the like the underlying like belief you have right now and pick that apart and why you're not taking action in that area. And it's this it's why it's all it's this is why I fucking love this game as well, because it's like the result is so much fun, it allows you to fully express your mission. I spoke about this the other day, and it's the same what you just spoke about. It's like you you you you had a mission, you continue to have missions, but like the the wake of the boat, like the the like the path behind you, you like organize that into frameworks to make it easier for other people to get to like a similar position where you are. And this is why this game is so exciting, is because you can literally go, what's my mission? Like, what do I want to like achieve? What do I want to turn this avatar, this character into? You get to fucking blast it and be a leader. And this is where you develop your leadership qualities, right? It's because you go, Oh, think it's this way and you fucking go. And then you go, okay, right. If I was to do that again, okay, how do I package that into frameworks? Okay, now I've helped other people climb up the ladder. And it's like, it's so much fun because you can literally just this is like without going, woo, this is like reality creation. You're just like, what do I want to create? And this business model, like the info space, it allows you to be like, this is what I believe in, this is what I want to create, and you can bring other people up with you as well, and hopefully help them become their own leaders as well in their own right. Um, it's just so exciting. It's just so exciting because it forces your personal development. You get the result of like money and freedom. Like that's pretty cool, and fulfillment. Like, great. Like, I don't know. This is why I love this model because it just forces so much like development within yourself. It's so exciting. Like, you could this is like step into your genius, yeah, and it's it's inviting you to. And I believe like we are here to do that, yeah. And this is the model that allows for it.
SPEAKER_01:And I think that's why, even quite recently, I've been like the most I've been like myself the past like two years, more so than like ever before, right? It's like you're no longer like putting on like a face or like even like trying to be more experienced than what you are, you know, and it's like I guess when you're younger, you're just a bit naive and you're a bit insecure, but I can just be my true self, and then people are attracted to it, whether it's good or bad. So I think the biggest kind of inflection for us was like we want to go big, like really big, more corporate style, even with our more masterminds coming up, like we want them to be more like polished, professional, not just like boy. Yo, yo, bro, I I'm no tell them to come back. Okay, no, tell them, don't put them in there because we're recording a podcast. Tell the couch guy to come back in 20 minutes. Pay him 400k and tell him to come back in 20 minutes. Money solves everything. Um so basically, the long story short is like part of that, and that's what I really want to get into. Part of the identity is you can is you can set the tone of who you want to become, and then you can move towards that as you meant directionally. So for us, like we want a more polished, professional, anti-fucking guru approach because like that's what a lot of people are, right? And that's what I want to ask you about identity because one thing that I've definitely haven't considered as much of, but I have definitely over the past couple of months is that identity shift to allow your business to shift. I think this goes back to how myself natively I'm very just more like plow through and I don't think about it. But my father-in-law recently said to me, He was like, Oh, like I've seen the business evolve so much recently, and I said, That's because I've changed, you know, I've become hopefully a better leader, but a different leader. Um I've become way more calm in the business, and things just flow better because I know that there's gonna be problems, and when the problem pops up, does a problem pop up this morning? Would you believe it? And I guess, all right, neutralize, done, move on with the day. So again, like your business is a reflection of you, your clients a reflection of you. And I want to get your thoughts on like the role of identity shifting as an individual as you're building your business.
SPEAKER_00:So I think what makes sense here is to do, and it's with the context of your client's reflection of you, your business is a reflection of you. Um, one of the exercises that we did, one at the mastermind and that we're doing consistently with clients as well, is like understanding where there's flow in your life and business, where there's friction, and then where there's fear. And whether you realize it or not, the fears that you're holding on to personally, um, they are showing up in your business. So let's say, for example, you are like have the fear of let's see things are rocky at the moment, and you have the fear of like, hey, I need to fucking get clients because I'm afraid that like fuck am I gonna be able to like pay rent. Let's say you're still there. So where that would be showing up in your business, for example, could be that like on sales calls, you are entering into that um position of like, I need to get this person over the line, like because I need it, I want it. Whereas I believe like one of the shifts we've had over the last you know few years is like we believe sales is clarity, like it's helping people get clear on what the right decision is for them. And we go in with the conviction of is like we are gonna leave this call with them having made the right decision that is best for them. Even if that means like this is not a good fit for you, like we know that we will have that conviction that that's that's the two options. Like if it's a good fit, we have a full conviction that we're like we can fucking help you. But like if it's not a good fit, we also have a full conviction that like, yeah, this is not good for you. And entering with that frame, you you if you still have that fear of like I need this right now, then your sales calls are gonna show up very, very differently. There's gonna be that tension. So it's like, how can you spot where these fears are and how they're showing up in your business? And when you can let go of these fears and and understand like what the belief is. So, for example, for sales, like um you could have if I don't a yes, anything but a yes is a failure. Like, that could be your um mindset with sales. Whereas if you're like your belief is oh, sales is about clarity, it's about like uh I'm here to serve, like, and it's a great uh saying it's like the hand that gives gathers, and it's I always think that with sales, it's like oh yeah, I'm here to serve, it's part of the service, sales is part of the coaching, and it's like if I can replace those beliefs, like then my identity is shifting, and then actually that's why you're a reps uh coach, yep, because they have to understand sort of like the Feynman technique, why is it they do what they do?
SPEAKER_01:And then they start to be like, Wait, I'm giving people an opportunity here. Yeah, I'm not trying to take their fucking money, I'm trying to show them that this is an opportunity, yeah, and it's my job as the the vessel to be like, hey, like here's where you're at, here's how we can solve it. Yeah, do we agree? Do you agree and do we agree collectively that this is the best option for you right now?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, 100%. And it's almost like having I know I know Turin and I rep as well. Like, he's even said things on calls where it's been like, like, hey, look, I'll be honest, like, I feel like you need to go back and watch a bit more content first. Like, I'm I'm not here to like convince you. Yeah, like that's huge. Yeah, like go at like look, we've have have you watched that content? Like, I honestly I don't think you should be on this call right now, like and that that level of like kind of calmness, certainty, and like conviction that you are getting them to clarity that no, this is not the right time for you right now, and it's that's like huge. So that there's one of the areas like with identity, but um yeah, it it's everything, it's everything, and it's like said this the other day on one of the community calls. It's like whatever your offer is, it's moving people towards a greater level of freedom in their life in some capacity, uh every offer, it could be, yeah, financial freedom. Okay, what does that look like in terms of like released constraints, in terms of travel, in terms of what I can experience, uh relationship freedom, like how free am I in my intimacy, how free am I in my willingness to you know be myself? And the the whole like identity thing is it's the the the the true growth is uh feeling uh comfortable within yourself, not even comfortable, but like peace within yourself to kind of express fully as you are, whatever that looks like, if that is in terms of business, relationships, health, that is what all people want. And like within your marketing, it's like if I can showcase that I am free to fully express as I am, and like that is what people are attracted to. It's like I would like that level of freedom you are embodying and showing within yourself. How do I rub off on you and like get a little bit more of that for myself? And that's when it comes back to that like embodiment piece as well, which is why it's so powerful. Um, it's just a greater level of freedom, and you have to embody that greater level of freedom. That's what the identity work is. It's like, am I fully embodying the level of freedom I am selling financially, emotionally, um physically, like whatever it is, and also like where you want to get to, like this is the biggest thing, right?
SPEAKER_01:Is that I don't know, do you it's difficult for someone to be like I have a mindset issue, right? Or you do have someone that says that and they use it as a massive limiting belief, they're like, I can't do something with a mindset issue. It's probably males are more like I don't have a mindset issue, females are probably like I do have a mindset issue, but regardless, whether you're in the trench that you have one or you don't, it's like does the person who has the biggest impact limit themselves from not doing activity? Now note that I didn't say does the person who makes 100k a month have that issue? Because that's not the goal. The goal is for you to solve the painful problem for a specific user that's easy to find online at scale. So does that person say, I can't do it, it's not for me, I'm not, I don't have the skills, I don't have the ability. No, they just figure the fucking thing out and then they hit 100k a month, 200k a month, because then you quite literally will get paid in proportion to the solving the problems that you're solving. So it's a big shift, right? Because it becomes less about me and how do I fill my pockets and more about you and how do you get the result.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you have a big reminder for people is you have a service, not a self-serving service, and this is where people uh we we see this quite a lot as well. It's like, oh, I built a system that serves me, but really the you you you've forgotten what a service means. This is crazy how many people in the space don't actually know what it means to like be in service, and it's like the greatest like anything you feel as, and again, this is going into I guess I I don't even like the word spiritual anymore because I just think it's like truth, like it's like this is going into that side of things. It's like anything you feel is lacking in your life is because you're not giving it. So it's like anything you feel within yourself, and we have to remember all of the tasks and things we undertake on a daily basis, often it comes from a place of like lack and need. Whereas if we're from a place of service, if we want to experience abundance, like we have to first give it, you know. So it's again, it's uh someone told me I had a Buddhist Theravada monk on the podcast a year or so ago, and one of the great things he said with one of the Buddhist teachings, he's like, um, if I he was talking about anger, he was like, if I throw a hot coal at you, I burn myself first. So like it's like that I experienced that to direct anger towards you. I have to experience it within myself. Now I have experiencing anger, and then I throw anger at you. Whether you experience it or not, I've burnt myself. And it's the same, the opposite is also true with like the service is, and this is why I talk about embodiment. If you want to like experience abundance, like it's through giving because you're saying, like, I have enough, like I have plenty of overflowing to give. And it's like that's what like the service is. It's like I'm so full of this that it is pouring out of me. And then as soon as you get into that other way of thinking of like, how do I catch on to a like new clients? This, da da da da, how does this serve me? You're in a place of lack rather than that place of like overflowing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and it for me, this is like it's like almost obvious because one way that it also manifests is if you ever look at someone's marketing and it's a lot of how I statements, right? Because they kind of say generally when you're writing tactical content, do how I or how to. I'd recommend how I only when you're positioning like why what you do works because you're showing us an example. But when I see a landing page and I see like how I made seven figures this year, I'm like, I don't give a fuck how you made seven figures this year. I want to see how you can help someone else do it. And then by virtue of that, then the same it's the same offer, but it's about how it's packaged, and it goes back to like that internal thing, and it's just like where's the main motivating factor? And I know this is quite tough if someone's like I call it like the bottom layer of Mazda's hierarchy of needs, they need to pay rent and so on, but it doesn't take long to be able to do that, right? And it's like if you make if you're making 4k from a client, it's one client, right? And I don't give a shit, move to a cheaper uh city if that's too expensive for you. But once that's done, it doesn't take a lot before you start moving up and actually serving other people. You can do that almost there's many people, but no money that do that, so it's like you can't use all my lack of resources as a crutch, right? Because that's bullshit. And the way to go a bit more meta, the way that I think about this stuff too, right, is if someone's in that position and then they do bad things, so they they're very manipulative, um, they're kind of fucking clients over or just doing a few shady stuff. The way I think about this is you have good traits or good activities and bad activities. A bad person can do good things, but a good person won't do bad things to that same individual. And I look at that as two mutually exclusive events, and that's why it's like, oh, but like he's a nice person, but he does this. It's like no no no, he's inherently not a good person, he just does some nice things every once in a while. So I think you'll actually lend especially with who am I gonna get coaching with, who am I gonna work with, why is this per is this person aspirational identity, and if they are, what are the underlying reasons for good that they're doing that?
SPEAKER_00:I think it's like getting clear on the fact as well that everyone, like myself, yourself included, there's this isn't all altruistic, like there's selfish um factors as well, but that isn't inherently bad. Like, so like for for me, I'll talk for myself. Like my missions and like goals like for myself, I I love just experiencing shit. And for me, like more money is a way to experience more, and like I know, but the the thing is the service is set up in a way that the and I have one of my fundamental beliefs is like the more I learn, the more money I make, the more money I make, the more I learn, and that makes me more valuable.
SPEAKER_01:It's funny because when we hired an ads guy, you've said that. Yeah, you're like at the end of the day, we'll just learn something. And I was like, that's a weird thing to say. I remember I thought about it a lot, and then I have learned a lot, but it was like it was just a weird thing to say. Yeah, so we gotta spend this much money, and you're like, Yeah, but we'll learn something.
SPEAKER_00:And I was like, All right, yeah, it's worth it, and that makes us more valuable. And it's like, okay, but it's the same other one. It's like, and I I listen to this every morning. It's like the more I learn, the more money I make, the more money I make, the more I learn. And I know that I'm convicted in that cycle of growth because that's exciting for me. Same with experience. I know the more I experience, like the more money I make, and the more money I make, the more I experience, and that makes me more valuable. And it's like, that's my selfish like motivating for all of this, is like, I want to experience shit. Like, life's awesome. Like, I mean, that's why I take people up mountains because I'm like, look how beautiful this is. And I often joke about this here. I'm like, like, please don't invite me to another cigar. I like smoking cigars, okay. I enjoy it. But like, if anyone is in the DMs and says, dude, should we like fucking go for a cigar evening and make like tape mudras at each other? And like, please do not invite me. Like, there's so much life to be had, like, in Bali everywhere. And it's like, for me, that's that's my selfish motivation behind all of this. I'm like, like, I just there's so much to explore. Then this is the business model for me that is why I'm so passionate about it. It's like it gives you the opportunity to just follow your curiosity, and it's different for me than it is for you. And like, I'm a big believer in like uh not necessarily muses, but like the reason I'm big on art as well is like I think the most because you can see a bit of artwork and it can like penetrate language. It doesn't matter what language you speak, you can see a bit of artwork, and you're like, okay, fuck, I'm feeling something. Um, and for me, that's that experience of like awe and bewilderment. And I believe whatever that looks like for you personally, the more you can experience like awe and bewilderment in your life, like that's where you get like infinite energy to create from. Because it's like, like for me, and that's for me, that's a lot of that is mountains and nature. I'm just like, I'm I sometimes in tears, like I'll see like a beautiful sunrise or whatever. I'm like, fuck, like life's fucking worth living. Fuck yeah. When I've been at like other side of that, I'm like, and I think that allowing this business. So anyway, I've gone on on a like a bit of a rant here, but like for me, that's like what it's all about. That's my selfish like motivation behind like this. However, the the to kind of tie the put a ribbon on this, me doing this serves others. The more I experience of this, and this is like the mindset of abundance that is often lacking, it's like there's no taking from others here. There's like the more selfishly I get to fulfill these things, the more that improves other people's lives as well. And that's what but abundance is, and that's when we're like around like this crowd here, these entrepreneurs here. You feeling other people grow doesn't isn't them taking from others, like them growing allows everyone else to agrow around them. And that's why like I love this business model. That's that's like and I think it's worth saying as well. Like, it's like there are selfish motivations, and anyone who says that it's like purely altruistic, like there's probably a selfish motivation uh behind as well. And it's like be honest and be clear, like with that, what are your values? And this is the other thing with like ethos, right? Communicating your ethos within your brand and you're communicating your vision. It's like people want to feel what your values are because like that's one of the most important things you can communicate through brand because that's what's going to make me align with you. And again, my mum always says this, and I bring this off often. She's like, if you're too polished or you're too smooth, like people want your rough edges because it gives them something to hold on to. And it's like portray that online, your rough edges, your values, the things you're interested in, the things you don't know. Like those rough edges give someone people to hold on to, and that's what makes you like magnetic and people fall in love with you. Whereas if you try and be too polished and you're like too altruistic, like I just have this service because like I just want to help people. It's like, okay, yeah, probably a little bit, but also like what are your like things you're into? That's what makes you interesting that people want to. Yeah. And the last thing I'll say on this, it's like your content should be a fucking, like, people should see it and be a fuck yes. Equally, people should look at your content and be fuck no. Yeah, that's when you've got good content, that's when you've got good marketing, that's when you know you're having the courage to show up as yourself.
SPEAKER_01:Everything should be binary, they shouldn't be like, ah, I'll think about it, I'll see, I'll come back to you in a month. It's like, no, no, no, no. This person loves your brand, loves what you're doing, they're all in, they're on a sales call, they're like, Yeah, let's fucking go, let's make sense. I've never booked a sales call where it wasn't already sold. Yes. You know, I'm just ready to go beforehand. I'm not like, I'm just looking around and I'm gonna speak to four other coaches tonight. It's like fuck off. You know what I mean? One day I would say I had this exact thought this morning, so it's funny you brought this up about the coaching flywheel. And I think what's interesting, I thought about this from our lunch as well we had yesterday, which was coaching is a tough business to crack, especially because it's not like a retainer model in the beginning, at least. So if you do know something, you're ex your high experience, high expertise, but low on the ability of coaching. When you do have it up and running, it gets easier. It has an inverse relationship, it starts tough and rough, but then it actually starts to wean off in terms of difficulty. So the only reason why you quit your coaching business is if it's not actually growing, because it actually will start to grow. And let me just go through uh some actual like reasons why. One, it's a flywheel effect. So, two, when you're bringing in more clients, they're going to be actually attracting other clients that are close to them. You have a referral program, which you have, there's all different ways you can do it. And then three, you get to refine your message because you're teaching, you're defining the technique, so your clips and content is better, so your marketing is even better. So it's becomes this flywheel that only improves. Whereas if you look at agency, agency is kind of like one penny in, one penny out. You start and stop with every single client. That means that, like, quite literally, all the biggest coaching programs, even including ours, the reason why ours has grown to multiple seven figures is because of this model. It gets better through time. As long as you're someone who's adaptive, you're open to feedback, and you're willing to actually make those changes when you need to. So, our example is we taught content, and then we taught offers, and then we taught offers, content, and sales. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And it's the thing is like what's giving this life is that it's the business grows as you grow, um, and we're not reliant on a particular mechanism that if the mechanism goes out of fashion, the business fails. Like it's principle-based, which is what we spoke about earlier on in the conversation. It's and the reason again, everything's person to person. The reason it's principle-based is because we're dealing with people, and it's like if you look at what offer content and sales is, it's kind of basically like communication and like convey like it's it the these are the things we're teaching, and those will never go out of fashion. Like, these are words we've just used to like describe things like offer content and sales. Someone made that up, but it's like it's the same thing. It's like, can you get in front of people and then like the way the way that I think about this as well is offer is product, uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01:So teach people how to build a product, whether that's coaching or agency, it's just product creation, which is tough, man. Pricing, ICP, market demand, product creation, such a valuable skill. Content is marketing, it's just marketing. A second amazing skill to learn, and sales is quite literally sales, so it is a foundational skill. Yeah, so if I can build a great product, if I can get eyeballs through marketing, and if I can turn that into clients, well, dude, I can do anything. And I know that to be true because we have two agencies, an education business with three different offers in it, and now we're building a software company, and it's the same shit with a software company. It's does the product work? Yes, that's what we're investing a hundred thousand dollars in. Can we get demand? Yes. Can that demand through product use have a flywheel? Because if the product works, they'll tell their friends and a sales process, yeah, yeah, whatever, we'll sell high tickets for enterprise people. But it's like I truly believe that we can do anything because that's what we're trying to solve, versus is it follower ad? Is it this new VSL? That's bullshit, that's total bullshit, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's so true. Yeah, it's that's what we spoke about at the beginning. It's like, is and again, this is why you you want people to be in their own vision, is because all of these other things are secondary, all of these things are tools. Yeah, it's like, how do I uh and again, like the framework I often use is like the brand vision method, and it's like if we're going back to like identity and the personal work you need to do within your um self as like a mentor, it's like your artist archetype, which is your freedom of expression, doesn't mean you have to be fucking like creative or paint art. It's like the artist archetype is the fearless freedom of expression, like that's what that is. Can you do that? Whatever that looks like for you, can you do that? Because that's when people feel you, and then it's like the leader archetype, which is your vision. Um, it's like, do I have true conviction in my values? And like, do I embody like these values? Are you someone worth following? And then the final piece is the scientist archetype, which is like your methodology, like, does it actually get results? Like, um, have you got frameworks and you've been like a you know, uh diligent and a scientist with putting things in frameworks that people consume? And like when, because what what a scientist does, they go, Hey, if you pour this chemical with this chemical, it gets this result. So your offer should do that. It's like if you put this and this, it should get this result. So, like what we see a lot online is like people over-index on things. So I have to say, a lot of what we get at the moment, it used to be the difference. So, for example, like the creator, the creator is like brand or like they're like artist and leader, they have the aspirational qualities and they have like some freedom of expression, but they have no fucking like scientist like way of doing things. Actually, that's like the creator problem, and they're like, I need an offer. It's like, yeah, you need frameworks. But what I see a lot at the moment is people with like the scientist stuff, they they do get good results. Their brand is okay, but it's the embodying the leader archetypes and actually like the reason why to do it outside of just get making money, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, that's why you have like you have entrepreneurs right now. The way I always break it down. Like there's like two different types of people. You have like creators who are too proud to send DMs, and then you have entrepreneurs that are too proud to create content. So they're both in a conundrum. Yep. And if you look at like offers, content sales, they all fall down on one parameter. So it's like, why do you hold such a strong belief about something that you don't even believe in? And now your entire identity is prefaced based on what exactly. Where it's like, I kind of had a bit of an identity ego debt in that way, which is like, I want to do things that work, man. You know, and if something else pops up that's gonna work, I'm happy to do that and add that into my arsenal. So if you look at like a utility belt, it's like okay, what else can we add into the utility belt? And for us, that's ads we're in 2026. It's like we wanted to put the H2 of 2025 into learning ads and cracking it. Can we add that to our arsenal going into next year? Why? Because we'll become a more rounded person.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, 100%. And it's like also being careful, like when you fall into the identity of like, oh, I'm a creator, you adopt by um default traits that are actually uh hindering to you as well because you've like decided that like that identity is what you want to step into. 100%. Same with like entrepreneur, it's like this is the problem with call it memes, call it pendulums. It's like the bigger something grows, the more it's like almost becomes like an ideology, and like the more unconscious beliefs you adopt based on that identity, and like you you see that with the entrepreneur space at the moment. It's like people see certain gurus, and when they identify themselves as like an entrepreneur, they unconsciously adopt beliefs they don't even realize like that scene has, and then other people this is the problem with like branding yourself online, is like you call yourself an entrepreneur, like people assume certain things of you, or you call yourself a creator, they assume certain things of you, which makes it hard to like brand yourself and make yourself digestible. Um, so that that that's uh a thing that is uh happening at the moment, and uh and bear in mind none of those traits are positive.
SPEAKER_01:Yep, no one's like, Oh my god, he's a creator, he must be amazing at scriptwriting. They're like, Oh, this person must be entitled. Yep, and like that's a subconscious effect that he's someone's building for no reason, yeah. You know, for no reason, you know. So a lot of things are unconscious, yeah, and they're not actually happening on the frontal cortex of being like, Oh, I believe this. Yeah, it's a it's just basically a secondary effect.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you have to be identi uh careful with like the niche you go into, and it's like one of the things which um is like you're a frequency, not a niche, which like seems to when I say that, people seem to like that. So I'm continuing to say it cautiously because I feel like other people are gonna make YouTube videos about it in motherfuckers. Like, but it's it's like it's very much true. It's like if I it's that's a mental model that's helped me um with like creation, because I really struggle with when people put me in a box because then I absorb it's like an ideology. It's like if you support, um, let's say you support Trump, people go, Oh, you're Republican, oh you think this, oh, you wear a dress like this. And it's like, oh no, I just said I like, I like I like some of the things he said, and now all of these other things are inferred by the fact that you said that you like this one thing. And the same as like, oh yeah, I'm a coach, and people go, Oh, all of these things. And it's like as soon as so people really struggle when they like brand themselves online because they understand that intuitively. They're like, oh, but there's some aspects of like these coaches that I don't like. So if I call myself that, I'm in with that. So it that that's a mental battle I see. And what one of the funniest parts, like weekly, I'm coaching people on bios. Like people send me like their bios, and they're like, I've come up with this bio, and it's like, I help soul-aligned coaches discover their truest form of freedom through my and I'm like, right, if you spend more than five minutes thinking about your bio, you're doing it wrong. Like you're clear, not clever, right? And um, but this is the thing is like people are so they they understand intuitively, like, oh, I need to separate myself, like, because like I don't like all the things. So I need this complex bio so people understand. It's not the case at all. You need to be clear in your bio, hey, like educator, hey, on like just something clear, and then your content, that's when people feel you. That's when people like feel the frequency of like what it is you're about. Oh, okay, I get this person. Like, don't get distracted with the bio, just give them like a broad, hey, I'm here, I'm kind of in this space, and people are like, okay, cool. Then they watch your content, and that's when they get to know you. Like, you're never gonna find that perfect, succinct line that's gonna like describe you as a human being. Yeah, um, so get over it.
SPEAKER_01:I've never ever ever described myself as like an entrepreneur or a creator or like an agency owner or a coach. I've had all those things, I've been all those things, but I've just been a person, bro. Yeah, just been a humanly, just been a human, you know, and I just do things. Yeah, that's why it's like a company that does stuff and other companies that do things. But yeah, man, I want to say a big thank you. This was sick. Yeah, let's make this a quarterly occurrence. Okay, and we just see what's going on in the quarter. But um check ins, yeah. Your legend, bro. Appreciate it. One of these lean across.
SPEAKER_00:That was fun.