Kickoff Sessions

#311 Dakota Robertson - How to Create Content That Actually Gets Clients

• Darren Lee • Episode 311

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(00:00) Why Your Content Isn’t Bringing Clients  
(00:32) How Copying Creators Kills Your Brand  
(02:54) Use Personality to Build Loyal Followers  
(04:14) How to Sell Yourself, Not Just Your Service  
(06:08) Build Your Brand Using the Creative Brief  
(09:49) Turn Life Experiences Into Content Ideas  
(11:16) Define Your Core Values and Brand Voice  
(16:22) Staying Authentic  
(18:28) Build Your Brand Before Building Your Offer  
(20:38) How to Use Market Research to Get Clients  
(22:36) The GAP Framework for Content That Converts  
(24:38) Leverage Trends to Grow Your Audience  
(26:35) Create Authority Content That Builds Trust  
(30:00) Use Storytelling to Sell More Effectively  
(31:24) Connect With Audiences Through Emotion  
(33:40) Practical Steps to Package Your Content  
(47:36) How to Get Clients With a Small Audience  
(56:50) The Content-to-Client Funnel Strategy  
(58:01) Scaling Organic Content With Paid Ads

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Darren Lee:

What's up guys? Today I'm with Dakota and we're gonna put together a full masterclass on how to create the right content for your social media that actually gets clients. A lot of you guys are probably creating content that's getting no views, no engagement, or it's getting views but it's not getting you clients. So by the end of this masterclass, Dakota, who will do a lot of the teaching, is going to show us exactly what you need to do. So my first question to you is where do you see people get this totally wrong, totally wrong when they try to create a brand and content to build their business?

Dakota:

I think the number one thing is that they're seeing what everyone else is doing and they're copying them. And if you're doing that, then you're just gonna blend in. And so you need to find what makes you unique, what makes you different, and lean into that. So each person has a unique story, they have a unique personality, they have a unique way of presenting information. And so those are the things you need to find. And even if you think you don't have those, I guarantee you do. It's just a matter of asking yourself the right questions and figuring out what works over time. Um, because you see it all the time. Like people will have a piece of content pop, and then other people will see that they'll copy the same thing, and you're just a carbon copy. You'll never be more than whoever that person is. So if you look at Iman Godzi, everyone's like trying to copy him or Alex Ramosy, and then you just look like the Walmart dollar store version of that, which you don't want, right? It's you're not you're not building a brand, you're just a knockoff brand. So you want to figure out the unique things that make you unique and lean into that.

Darren Lee:

You can see that, all right, because when you look at the guys who are copying them, it's like there's just something off.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Darren Lee:

It's just something that's off. And I guess like that's a lack of personality. Would you put that down to maybe like almost insecurity, right? Because when you're starting online, yeah, it's like one, you don't want to really have much of an opinion on things, but then if you do an opinion on things, you're almost scared to share it in case that is something different than other people's opinion.

Dakota:

Yeah, and that's like a big thing too. It's like the vulnerability aspect. People are scared to be vulnerable or actually show who they are because you know, if people judge them, then it's like, oh, you know, they they take it very seriously and they take it as a a hit on their who they are as a person. And so it's safer just to parrot the opinions that other people have and then just lean into that. But that's really what makes you forgettable, or again, seem like a carbon copy.

Darren Lee:

Yeah, man. I think what's funny was like that's uh what I always recognize you for is like the unique stories that you have, you know. And that was like the first time that I remember uh like recognizing your content was it was like the pineapple pizza thing in this thing, yeah, you know, and like that's like something that is a simple example of like how you just stood out with like a bunch of people that are all trying to do the same thing, all trying to say the same same thing, but you just had some like weird, quirky weirdness on the side.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Darren Lee:

How did you kind of like get that almost like planning in place to put your content out there in such a way that it's gonna be like kind of bold, but it's also gonna be aligned to like what you want to do from your business perspective?

Dakota:

I think for so initially it wasn't planned, it was just I was just kind of being me and just making dumb jokes and just kind of wearing my heart on my sleeve, and then I noticed things that would pop off or people resonated with, and I'll be like, oh, there's something there, and I'd lean into it. So the pineapple pizza thing, I just made a joke half-assed, like one day, and then people they were kind of polarized in the comments, like, oh, I hate it or I love it. And I was like, Oh, there's something there. I'm gonna make this an inside joke. So when I make listicles, you know, very serious, and they'll have like pineapple pizza in the middle of it, it's kind of like a dumb Easter egg.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Dakota:

Um, and it's like it becomes an inside joke. And so you'll find things as you create content that's uh true to you or authentic to you, that there'll be times where things pop off. And it's like, oh, that's a signal from people that you need to lean into that. So, like me, for example, I used a term called like become a jack nerd, and a lot of people resonated with that. And I was like, oh, there's something there. This is like this identity, you know, you're you're Jack, but you're also a nerd. And I would use that in my content a lot, and then people use that to identify uh with me.

Darren Lee:

Yeah. Isn't it all identity at the end of the day? Because it's about like you work with people that you align your interest to as well. Like I had this story, this example of my videographer, the person that I hired, he's a dog person just like me. And the reason why I hired him is because we had an interest in dogs together. I knew he was like good, and he was I didn't even look at his work. And I was like, okay, he's gonna be competent. But we had this like shared interest that I knew I could sit down and have a conversation with Stuck. Yeah, turns out he was great, and I was like, that's that's like a happy secondary effect because uh what people buy is the person, not really like the product a lot of times.

Dakota:

Yeah, it's like human trafficking, you know, they buy the person.

Darren Lee:

Yeah, that's good.

Dakota:

He's got like 10 slaves in the back where it worked. Um, but no, and exactly think that's the number one thing I noticed when I onboard people is they always comment, oh, I resonated with your story, or I really like your personality. Um, like one guy recently I onboarded, he said he was looking at between me and a competitor, and he chose me because he saw on my sales page me shooting a rocket launcher in Cambodia. He's like, Oh, I went to Cambodia and did that. Like, I'm gonna I resonate with this guy. And so just like something dumb like that can lead to clients. And I know it's true for me, but also the people I've helped, they they talk about their story, and that's gotten them clients just based on that.

Darren Lee:

One thing that we do with all of our clients is get them to make an original story video. So just like a their first YouTube video is just specifically showing, showcasing what who they are, what they believe in, what their mechanism is. The majority of people that buy their products and services come from that video because again, it's not to do with the mechanism. Like I to be honest, these days everyone has the same fucking offers anyway. So it's like the offers is one thing, but the story is most important than anything else. So my question for you on that is like, how do you how do you design that? Like what framework do you have to kind of build out that identity, that brand identity?

Dakota:

Yeah, so I I do something called a creative brief and show to Nick Verge. He showed me what this was, but basically it's a document and it has information on your target audience, and you do a research on it, whatever. I kind of expanded upon that, and so I made a creative brief on my brand, uh my target audience, and then my offer. So when it came to my brand, there's a few elements that I include. So one is I call it my bullet point backstory. So what that is is basically I have a bank of questions. And so all right, here I'm gonna say, like um, what happened ages uh between five and ten. So, like, what are the significant events that happened between the ages five and ten? So my priest, uh I'm kidding, okay. Um but it's like here, I'd put bullet points. I'm not gonna write a whole essay, but I'd basically say, like, um, maybe your dad left you, or maybe uh you got into jujitsu and it taught you a lot about discipline, or maybe you took a camping trip with your scoutmaster and uh he took you off to the side. I don't know. But like that would be one question. Or like, what were the significant events uh during high school? Maybe you were like the shy kid and you came out of your shell. Uh what were the significant events that you know happened in college? Or what were your biggest wins in life? What were your biggest failures? What uh biggest uh I guess uh mindset shifts. And basically you're looking at these questions, and this just prompts you like, okay, what were those significant moments? And you just type in bullet points like what those were, and you just just go ham for like an hour, and you're gonna have all these different stories, and I I can show you mine later if you want, or now or whatever. Um, but basically, I'm just getting a ton of these different stories, and then when I go to ChatGPT or whatever AI later, it's gonna have context on who I am and it's gonna help me generate even more ideas based on how I prompt it. Uh, but this just gives me a good understanding of the different things that have shaped me. And then, so let's say I was in jujitsu. Like, what were the lessons I learned in jiu-jitsu that applied to business? And so you're not just creating content like, here's three business tips, but it's like you can tell stories about here's what jujitsu taught me about running a sales team or whatever. And then you have this unique angle where you're all you're educating them, but you're also showing who you are and you're getting people to connect with you.

Darren Lee:

Because if you think about all the content that's on LinkedIn, Instagram right now, especially any written text platform, it's just straight regurgitated from Chat GPT. 100% how to do XYZ, like how to build a team or how to write viral posts, like they post on how to make viral posts, how to write AI.

Dakota:

Yeah.

Darren Lee:

So because of that, if you just take a step back and just actually write content that's specific to your experiences, because that's what you're not gonna be able to get from AI. You're not gonna be, they're not gonna be able to tell you what your experiences are. You're gonna have to fucking come up with them yourself, you know?

Dakota:

Exactly. It's uh it's really what separates you. So you can see my creative brief here. So I have the brand section. So here for the bullet point backstories, I'm talking about my highest value is freedom. I want freedom over my time, location, finances. My purpose is to help others do the same. My older brother has cystic fibrosis. Um, blah, blah, blah. My father chose smoking crack over raising his kids, um, like all these different things. And so I can look at this, and if I ever need to generate ideas or think about content that will connect with people, uh it's going, you know, I have this whole bank. Um, and then as well, what I like to do is look at uh list out my favorite personal brands and what are my favorite qualities from those people. So that allows me to not copy them, but think about, okay, I really like how Alex Becker has his, you know, autistic humor. And I like how uh Grant Lannon, he tells really relatable stories and breaks limiting beliefs. How can I incorporate those two elements together in my own brand? It just gets me thinking. Like if you if you identify what you like in other people, uh it makes it really clear, like, okay, you know, this is probably something I should also do in in my brand as well. And it doesn't mean you copy them, but you can take certain elements, and then when you mix stuff together, it's like little ingredients, you create your own recipe.

Darren Lee:

Yeah, 100%.

Dakota:

Um, so that's also one. And then I have the values. So I think it's really important for you as a person to identify what are your top three to five values, whether it's in business or whether it's personal, and just get clear on that because your content should be a reflection of your values and what you stand for. Because, you know, at the end of the day, if you don't stand for anything, it's like what's your brand built upon?

Darren Lee:

And love of yours has benevolent degrees.

Dakota:

Yeah, exactly. It's like it's like I want to, I'm not, I'm not gonna bullshit, like I'm not Mother Teresa here, I'm not a charity, I want to make money, but I want to make money in a way that makes other people money, it's ethical. Because there's a lot of this bullshit where people are like, oh, I just do it because I love it. And then they sell like a $5,000 mastermind or something. It's like, okay, bro, like chill out.

Darren Lee:

And then and that's a good point, right? Because you don't need to be this like overly altruistic person, right? And this is where a lot of the person of other people fall down. Yeah. Because they're like, oh no, no, no, I'm doing it to help other people. It's like, yeah, you're gonna help other people, but you suddenly get paid, right? That's why like the Red Cross still has like people that make a salary because they're in fucking Africa all year, right? Yeah, like there has to be, and that's part of like being okay with the business that you're running. And that's part of your values, yeah. Which is the reason why someone like, I don't know, like the biggest speakers in the world who do help people, they're able to also make money, make a ton of money.

Dakota:

Yeah.

Darren Lee:

So it's good that you're clear on that, right? Yeah, it's exceptionally clear on that.

Dakota:

And then attracts the right type of people, right? If you're just saying, oh, you know, I just do this.

Darren Lee:

They can smell it, right? Yeah, exactly. You can just spot it straight away.

Dakota:

Yep. And then as well, uh, I like to talk about or I like to get clear on what are my polarizing messages or polarizing takes. Uh, so me, like pineapple belongs on pizza is one, but uh don't try to be happy, be useful, or uh you are not the niche, or you are the you are the niche is bad advice. And I kind of like talk about that. That's like your best. Yeah. I love Danco, I just disagree. Maybe I don't understand it. Um, don't work with broke clients. So these are all like semi-polarizing things or more polarizing. And the what that does is basically filters out who you want to work with and who you don't want to work with. Because if you're just neutral in the middle, uh you're not going to stand out. And I'm not saying be poll be polarizing for the sake of being polarizing, but don't be afraid to you know beat your war drum and tell people what you actually stand for and what you stand against. Because if you look at a lot of the biggest personal brands, like Donald Trump, for example, uh he was able to amass such a big following and such a uh decisive win because he got people to rally against a common enemy and he had a polarizing message, and people loved him or hate hated him, but there was no like in the middle. And I think it's a lot easier for people to rally against stuff that uh like their common enemy. So, for example, he was talking about like building the wall or um he had the immigration stuff or drain the swamp, fake news. He had all these enemies, China. Yeah, exactly. China, we're getting screwed. But it worked really well in his favor, and that brings me to the enemies section. So, like, what are the things within your industry that you stand against? So maybe let's say you're in the coaching industry, it's like uh you hate the Rolex in Dubai bros that are flexing Lamborghinis and all this BS. Like, how can you call those people out? And by doing so, you're showing what you stand for and what you stand against, and people can relate to that. Like, oh yes, I hate the the dumb Rolex flashy bullshit. You know, I'm more into the freedom stuff, and I identify with this person. So, like getting clear on what you stand against is uh is a big thing. Um, I have some funny ones like content cucks or NPCs. What's content cucks? Like basic basically people who just sacrifice their authenticity and their their self-respect for uh algorithm likes all that stuff, and they're just carbon copies, basically.

Darren Lee:

What's important here is like you can still have that message without being like a dickhead.

Dakota:

Yeah.

Darren Lee:

Like you can still you don't have to be an asshole when you're saying that. So I'll give you a simple example for us. Like we're against like our enemy is the people that do like sell by chat and are like the guys are like, oh, you can have a freedom life and do absolutely nothing and still make like a hundred K a month and do absolutely nothing. Like we're actually kind of for against that because we've shown so much other people that well, people that try that usually come to us afterwards. So it's like we're like a safe haven for it, antithesis of it. Now I don't oust those people, but it's just very clear that it's like, okay, look, you've tried that, great, that doesn't work, okay, let's do this instead. And it's like they're just small things. And I think that's the reason why it's like people when people hear this, they're like, oh, but I don't want to piss people off. You don't need to. You just need to have a brand so that people know, okay, I'm gonna go to Dakota to learn this in that way. It's a big distinction, right?

Dakota:

Yeah. I like to one thing I when I do stuff like this, I like to make clear you're not calling out like specific people, you're calling out like archetypes of people or common practices or false beliefs. Yeah, like stuff like that. I I wouldn't ever want to like call out someone specifically.

Darren Lee:

Have you read uh uh Reality Transurfing?

Dakota:

No, I I started listening to like the first part, but I never got you read a smaller book.

Darren Lee:

Yeah, it's just well, don't even read it, just listen to it. But a big part of this is this group think, right? Like what is there was a general consensus happening like in the ether, like in the world. Are they thinking like this? Like the nine to five or is traditional education system. You identify that a lot of that belief system is based on volume of people. So there's a volume, it's like it's like a huge volume game of it. And then you get this decision, it comes into this decision, which is like, okay, I as an individual, what do I want to do with this information? Do I want to be consumed by it, which is going into it? Do I want to be hateful towards it, or do I want to acknowledge it and then just do something else? And like the latter is what you're meant to do. Yeah, it's like identify that, okay. You know, for me, it could be like the guys are trying to push like sell by chat. It's like, okay, that's a thing. People are doing it. A lot of people will not be successful with it. What can I do with it? I can just focus on my own business over here and teach people what we teach them, which is the opposite of that. So I think it's just it's interesting, right? It's like you can get really caught up in this shit, and that's where it goes back to it's not a person, it's a group. It's not an like an individual, it's actually like a collection of thoughts that have given this you know, energy of that's what it is. It's giving an energy, and now it's time to stop giving it energy, basically, with your brand.

Speaker 1:

That's actually a good way of putting it. Yeah, it's a a collection of mindsets and energies.

Darren Lee:

Because it basically it keeps up uh it picks up speed, right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Darren Lee:

So it rapidly increases, and because it rapidly increases, it's that's part of that's actually ironic, because that's actually part of the group think is let's give them more energy. So if you're even thinking about it negatively, it's like, okay, let's look the other way and do something different.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I like that.

Darren Lee:

So tell me about how to actualize this. So you have a lot of frameworks built, or at least you know what your brand actually looks like. How do you bring that into online to build your brand? And the question for you here is like, do you do this before you build your offer, or do you build your offer before you do this?

Dakota:

I mean, it depends where you're at. I mean, some people will be more advanced and they already have an offer and they just need to do this, or vice versa. Um, I think your offer is kind of uh like a reflection of your brand. So I would I would start with your brand, especially because it's easier to just throw together. You could do this within a few hours, and then it's not just some static document. You just create this over time and edit it, and you know, as you get clarity. So I think just having like a good starting point, um, just working on that and answering those questions. Um, in terms of I guess uh building this out and what it looks like in practice, I can show some stuff that I do with AI that would be useful to people. So, like when you answer those questions, like you're gonna have this you can download as a document. Um, one thing I would also recommend is just getting clear on who your target audience is. And so what I do, I hop on market research calls with the people that fit my target audience. Um, basically I offer free consultations. I don't sell them anything and say, I just want to ask you questions. And at the end, you can ask me anything. Um, but basically I transcribe those calls and I get, okay, what are their desired outcomes? What are the obstacles that they have? What are the pain points they have? And I transcribe those calls, I upload those to an AI. I say, I want you to create a document that gives me the pains, desires, dreams, obstacles, limiting beliefs, FAQs, uh, stuff like that. And so you can see a lot of the quotes here. Um, but I basically just build out this document. And so when I upload it to AI, it's gonna have all this context on who I'm trying to serve, like current obstacles, all that stuff. Um, but basically, let's say I'll go here, I'll upload a file.

Darren Lee:

Do you still take those micro research calls?

Dakota:

Whenever I launch a new offer, I do. But that's really smart, man. Yeah, it gives me so much clarity on uh who I'm trying to serve, and it makes my offers just resonate on a much deeper level. And even for the content, um it's super, super useful.

Darren Lee:

It's funny because that's actually something that we recommend like in our program for people that are starting, is to don't take sales calls, take market research calls. So there'd be a whole section on it. But it's ironic because I think when you are running sales calls, people don't even think about that as content. They're so used to being like, oh, but does it work? You know, is someone buying my shit? And then they're so focused on people not buying their stuff, they're not focused on learning. Whereas market research calls are literally designed only to learn.

Dakota:

Yep, it's uh it's one of the most useful things you can do because I mean a lot of people don't want to do it because there's no instant ROI. And it's like, oh, it's just a waste of time. It's like, dude, you know how useful it is to have uh this information.

Darren Lee:

Um dude, at the beginning of Aura um software platform, um I took like 20, 30 calls, and they were all with large sales teams, like founders, like guys are doing like seven, eight figures a year, and they were just happy to just hop on and be like, yeah, I have this issue with like my sales process, this issue with Notion, Airtable, my CRM. And I was like, okay, perfect, great. And we just took all the transcript and we just built it on it.

Dakota:

Yep. It's uh and it's something you have for life too, right? It's just so easy just to, once you have that document, just upload it to AI. It's like, okay, now your content or your offer or whatever is gonna be so much more targeted now that you have that information. You're not just guessing, right?

Darren Lee:

Especially when it's a fucking platform you're building and not a and not a like a simple service-based offer that you can swap. Yeah, right. When you need to get things right, that's the reason why you need to speak to a large volume of customers and clients.

Dakota:

Yep.

Darren Lee:

Okay.

Dakota:

So what's happening here? So right now I just uploaded my document on what I think makes for a good content idea. So basically something called my gap framework, and I can go into that if you want. Um actually, I probably should so people have context. So, like when it comes to content, the way I think about it, there's three types of content. So I call this the gap framework.

Speaker 2:

So you have growth, you have authority, and then you have person.

Dakota:

So growth content is going to get people to know about you, authority is gonna get people to trust you, personal is gonna get you get people to like you. So no like and trust. And that's not to say it's like, oh, you can only create one type. It's like I like creating content that hits multiple pillars. So maybe it's authority and personal or uh personal and growth, and it's gonna have like a multiplying effect. Um, but growth content is gonna be content that is top of mind for people. So if you're in the business niche, whatever marketing, uh, so I want to think about what are the current trends, what are the world events, what are or who are the popular figures in this industry, and how can I talk about that? Because that's gonna be top of mind for people. And so it's like a Trojan horse. If you talk about something that's top of mind, it's gonna get more clicks. And then if you're just dropping the sauce or like giving something really valuable or insightful, people are gonna be like, oh, you know, I came for this, but I'm following this person because this is actually really useful. You literally see that on YouTube. I came for like this video, yeah. And then I stayed for like the 100 or videos. 100%. And so if like if I'm thinking about like what are the world events right now, um, you know, Christmas is coming up or Halloween, for example. So if I'm a marketer, maybe I can break down the best Halloween ads.

Darren Lee:

You could dress up as a girl, yeah, yeah.

Dakota:

It's a 72 genders, right? You pick whatever one you want. It could be good, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And uh, but like talking about like world events, like Christmas, Halloween, whatever. Or like who's a popular figure in the industry? So, you know, Alex Ramosi had that big launch for his book. Can you break down the funnel he did for that, or uh like how he did the webinar, stuff like that, or how he does his emails? Um, so that's going to help you get more clicks on your stuff because people are interested in that person and he's well known. Um, so doing stuff like that, that'd be like growth content. So if I was to put this, it would be like trends. So, like, let's say like ChatGPT or something has an update. Like, how can you show uh I guess something to do with marketing, popular?

Darren Lee:

As you draw it out, we actually have a someone I work with on this, so it's like he's like a software development agency, and the goal is just to check the calendar and see what's the biggest updates for AI that's coming out. So he's using AI as AI development. So he literally looks. We're looking at the next calendar for ChatGPT, similar perplexity, all these different tools. When a video comes up or when a release comes up, we're just gonna create a Loom video reaction to the update.

Speaker 4:

Oh my god!

Darren Lee:

Yeah, it's literally that. It's just like 10-year, 10-year uh engineer like reacts to the new update or just explains the new update and he just brought everybody like, yep, this is an advantage, XYZ. Dude, if that's coming up on YouTube at the same time the releases, those videos are just gonna go fucking crazy because they're looking for people who are experts at what they do and talk about it in an easy way.

Dakota:

100%. Yeah, I think it's really smart too. Um, I did the one when Chat GPT launched the images, like the creation update or whatever is like crazy, and I showed how to prompt it, and that one just like popped off on LinkedIn. Yeah. So it's hitting the timely events, and you'll see us often from the best creators. They're they're always doing this and tying it back to what they talk about. So it's not just like, oh, let me break down what this thing is. Like, how can you break this down, but relate it to what you talk about or your story? Yeah. So, like what you talk about, like how you were uh a developer, like software engineer, you know, like talking about your expertise, and that's what's gonna get people more invested in you. Um, so that's like the growth content. Then you have authority content. So this is gonna be like tips, uh insights, and then social proof. So tips, I'm thinking of uh just basically like how-tos or uh even say like steps. So tips are there's no particular order of what the tips could be in. So they're five tips or something like that. Try to make it frameworks. Yeah, yeah. Try to make it package it so it's not generic, like five tips. Um steps, so that would be tips, but it has to be done in a certain order uh to get the result. So yeah, that could be frameworks, that could be um just anything like walking through how to get a result or solve a pain point. Insights, I differentiate that from tips and steps because insights, I think of stories that have a takeaway. So you could talk about uh, you know, you had this issue with your business recently and blah, blah, blah. And then what was your main takeaway on how you overcame that? So it's basically presenting tips or steps in a different way with like a story.

Darren Lee:

What about here? Would you include like your perspective on it? So let me give an example. Let's just say it's your nuance. Let's just use the hormose example, which is he did a launch, made like 100 million like a weekend. This is my take on this, and this is my view on this from someone who's built funnels or whatever. Does that make sense? Yeah, it's just like taking the concept and then the insight, then is that nuanced view.

Dakota:

And I guess that's where you're combining both of them, right? Exactly. That's what I was gonna say. Like the way I think about it is we go like this. So like so, but like you have the authority stuff here, and then you have you know the personal stuff here, and then you have the growth stuff here. So you can combine like the growth and the authority. I'll highlight it so people can actually see this. So you can like combine these two, or you can combine these two, or you can combine all three and like have something that touches on all of those, which is ideal. Let's say the umladi. Yeah, exactly. Whereas hell Satan, you know, just kidding. We don't we don't f with Satan over here.

Darren Lee:

This has been a huge unlock for me, man. Fucking hell, I'm seeing this really clearly.

Dakota:

Yeah, see, I I like to think of like how can I simplify things in threes or like as simple as possible because that's what's gonna enable people to actually execute on it.

Darren Lee:

If you think about your origin story too, it's actually funny. I come up with a new origin story every single year. I wrote I release it again just with a slightly different angle. I don't say different things in it. Like it's the same story. I'm like, I'm actually a different person when I was a kid, but I just take a different angle on it. So I'll give an example like a couple of years when I recorded, it was very like podcast heavy. And then I just this year I just didn't mention anything to do with podcasting. It was just all about the business that we built, and then just basically what I've learned about it from like a content perspective, sales perspective, and offer perspective. So it's basically the same shit, just said differently. So that's the authority and personal point.

Dakota:

You talk about like how he suffered Down syndrome and he overcame that, you know. People people were saying he had down syndrome, or someone said he had Down syndrome in the comments, and I'm just riffing off that.

Darren Lee:

Basically, you're there's actually a calculation with this. Let me show you. But down syndrome? Just in general, right? So if you're trying to so if this is uh where's pen there so if this is like um your like revenue here, and then this is insults on the injury on the penetrat, the more insults you get, the more money you make. So like if someone says that you're like the worst person in the world, yeah, that's when you know you're gonna finally hit a million a month.

Dakota:

That's actually very true. Because people don't hate on you know people doing worse than them.

Darren Lee:

Well, some people do. Some people do, but the logic is if you're not getting like at least five to fifty hateful comments to kill yourself a date, then you're never gonna be successful.

Dakota:

Yeah, just give up.

Darren Lee:

We're just you know I'm not gonna say it. You'll get better. So like a lot of people call say that I look down syndrome, and a lot of people say that I should kill myself on the internet. And I I honestly have never had better months.

Dakota:

Thanks, guys. And then back over to you. Okay, cool. Um, so that's the tips, steps, insights, and then we have social proof. So this is gonna basically basically be like the testimonials, case studies. Um, I think packaging it in a way where you could tell stories with the social proof is the best. So, how can you make it? I guess add stakes to the story. How can you make it relatable to somebody that you're trying to target uh so they can identify with the person? Uh so packaging the story. That's a common theme you'll find is storytelling within all of this. Um, so that's the authority. And then we have the personal. So personal, I like to break it down into uh lifestyle I can't spell today, jeez. Lifestyle, um world views, world domination, world domination, oh yeah, and then like personal stories. So lifestyles like behind the scenes. Can you show, you know, I guess, you know, what you're doing, what you're building, uh, how you live your life, like different stuff like that, just so people connect with you. You're not just this talking head. Okay, incel. Incel, yes. Yeah, yeah. I'm out cell. Um, worldview. So, what are your polarizing takes? What are your values? So that goes back to what we were talking about earlier, like anything where you can just show how you view the world and that allows people to connect with you, like, oh, I also share that belief, or I didn't think of it like that. And so you're going beyond just like the business stuff. It's actually allowing people to connect with you as a person. And then you have personal stories, uh, basically, yeah, like what are the uh significant events that happened to you as a kid or you know, day-to-day life, stuff like that. And that's one of the best ways to connect with people uh because, you know, at the end of the day, we're all human and we all have these shared experiences. Now, they may not relate to, like, for example, they may not relate to you being a fat kid growing up, but they can relate to feeling like the black sheep of their peers or their family, right?

Darren Lee:

I know what you meant, but it was way funnier to say anything.

Dakota:

But uh, but yeah, those are like the the basic pillars I think of when creating content. Sorry. So that was kind of like a little side tangent there, but uh that is very important for understanding how I prompt AI. So basically, I upload my gap framework. So this is just me on a document explaining how this works. So I said I uploaded a PDF with a framework on the three types of content to create for social media to build a personal brand that people know, like, and trust. Please read it once you understand. Reply with the word yes. Okay, so now it understands it. And so I'm gonna say, I'm gonna upload my uh brand document that has my offer and my target audience. So all the information I was kind of talking about there. Um, so based I'm uploading info on my brand, target audience, and offer. Please read it. Uh, once you fully understand it, generate uh twenty-five content ideas for each part of the gap framework that would resonate with my with as you pull that up.

Darren Lee:

What's your thoughts on some of the kind of that comes back being like very generic, especially with AI? Like I know you do a lot of AI teaching for writing, but unless you go super, super deep on making it like fucking excellent, what do you think about it being very surface level? Because like I know the space that you're in, you're like teaching ghostwriters, and many people never coming out with like you know, chat GPT wrapper equivalents of writing online. Like, where's the danger on this, right?

Dakota:

Personally, I think about you know, okay, so we have like one of the most advanced technologies in the world that has billions or maybe trillions of data points, and then we have me, a potato user, using this thing. So, where does the error most likely fall? Is it on this advanced technology or is it on the potato IQ user? You know, I I like to think it's probably on me. So it's not a matter of uh the output being bad, it's like the input is probably not there, and so that's where it's really helps to understand how to prompt. I also have a framework on that, but I'll save that for later. Um, but just understanding like, am I giving it enough context? And that's why I like creating these documents because then it has a lot more context to go off of rather than just oh, generate content.

Darren Lee:

Um that's my fear with these platforms, though, right? That like, you know, if you're uh signing up to these fucking writing platforms, my fear is just that it's a stop learning effect, right? It's I'm gonna outsource my thinking to this thing because it's meant to fill in the gaps. Yeah. It's kind of like when you hire someone, right? It's like you do need to do a lot of coaching with someone because they're not gonna be ready. And that's me, these small details. And I've noticed that a lot with AI setting, AI sales setting, is that people have like quite literally turned off their brain and just said, okay, this is a solution. Yeah. And I mean like chat GBD here, DMs here. They've just taken that as the answer. That's just my only caveat with this. Like someone like you who's like somewhat semi-rational, will be like, all right, hey, have a bit of observation and hopefully myself. But that I think that's the only time I look at this where I'm like, fuck, like, is the is this problematic to someone who's a Panado? Yeah. An extra Panado.

Dakota:

100%. And that's like, I like to think of it, yeah, like you're an orchestra conductor, so you may not be like playing each instrument individually, but you're like harmonizing it all together to create this result. Um, but yeah, like there's people that they outsource their thinking to AI instead of using it to assist their thinking. And that yeah, you're gonna screw yourself over that way because you're not gonna know what makes for a good or bad output, right? So if I don't understand what makes for good writing or for a good offer or for whatever, it doesn't matter what it outputs because you're gonna be lost. And so that's why it's very important that you don't just outsource everything to AI, you're just using it to assist. And that doesn't mean like you stop learning. In fact, you should double down on it because your outputs are gonna be so much faster and so much better. Um, but yeah, it's a huge problem. It's like people are just a potato and they just don't understand like what the hell they're actually using. It's it's called mash potato. Yeah, mash potato. You want to be a baked potato, not a mash potato. When I uh put this in, it's like, okay, so it understands what growth content is, it understands my creative brief. And so it can create uh personalized answers based on the information I gave it. Now, obviously, you're not gonna use every single idea, but it's good to get the ideas flowing. And you know, if you want to double down on something like, oh, I want more content like this, or give me more authority content, or I'm trying to do this result, you know, create ideas based off this. It's gonna be more targeted.

Darren Lee:

Awesome.

Dakota:

Yeah, and then you have the authority content. So uh basically like how to turn your first client into your best sales rep, or how my student went from zero to 10k a month in 90 days.

Darren Lee:

So my question is did you think of that idea, or did you is that what you came back with? Is that something you had the turning your client into a sales rep?

Dakota:

So basically it I uploaded a whole lesson I had on the gap framework. And so yeah, this basically created all these different angles. So it took the foundations of what we went over here and then it generated ideas based on that. Um, but yeah, basically it came up with all of these.

Darren Lee:

Sick man, that was really good. What I want to ask you is what's your take on like volume with content? So watching a hormose video recently, and you saw him about like the difference between a one million-year business and like a hundred million-year business, which was him, and a difference was most people post 365 times a year, once a day, and he was posting 35,000 times a day a year, and then as a result, it was almost like a linear relationship. Now, not everyone has a 400k a month team. But I just thought it was an interesting like example of when you actually scale up the volume of content, there is like somewhat a linear return. Yeah, but it's interesting because you actually have lower volume than a lot of people when it comes to like YouTube and comes to Instagram. So I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

Dakota:

Yeah, so I I actually liked what Hermozy said. I forget when he said it, but he was basically saying, like, at the start, you need volume and then you want to create quality, and then you want quality and volume.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Dakota:

But I think like one thing people don't consider or like forget is like Hermozzi has a whole team creating content for it. Like he has guaranteed as a ghostwriter, he has editors, like all these like people churning out content for him. And so like his level of volume is just not realistic for not even like half his level of volume is not realistic for a lot of people because if you're creating more content, usually it waters down the quality of it, unless you have again like a team where you're outsourcing. It's not rare anymore. Yeah, exactly. So I like, yeah, at the start, like you need a bit more volume, but I don't think you need to like post three times a day or like anything crazy. It's like one thing I've noticed, especially with YouTube, is the videos I spent more time on, like let's say I spent five times the amount of time on one video. That can have like a 20x in the performance than if I was just doing a video once a week. And Mr. Beast also did the exact same thing. Exactly. And that's where I got it from, actually. I I heard that I'm like, oh, let me try that. And it's like, yeah, that's so true. Now, I think a lot of people can there's like a medium, a happy medium where it's like they you might spend so much time on this one thing, but you don't understand what makes for good content yet. So you just waste all this time on this thing where you could have been creating content and you you find the patterns over time and you're like, oh, okay, this works. So yeah, there's something you said about yeah, doing volume, but also doubling down on what works and making quality because it's also like the brand associate association thing, too. It's like if you constantly pump out content, it's not high quality, it's the people associate you with shitty content. And when they see you next time, like, oh, I didn't like his last video or last five videos, like it's just a waste of time. They're scroll past. So there's something to be said about uh volume, but also the quality. It's very important you don't sacrifice that.

Darren Lee:

It's interesting, right? Because it's like if you if you look at the mean curve, right? It's like in the beginning, the guys down here are like just post good content, just post content and get leads, and the guys down here are just post content and get leads. And then the guys in the middle then are the guys with like 14 different AI writing tools and getting us so complicated and it's convoluting everything.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Darren Lee:

So it goes back to almost the same message, which is like make the content better, make the content better, and then in in between that, then we can kind of like get rid of the shit you don't need. I think that that's interesting because like a big thing about going from let's say you get out of the fight or flight mode with your business and you know you're getting leads, you've started probably to do a bunch of other stuff that you just can stop doing. Yeah. So I guess for you, when you slow down YouTube volume, you didn't double down, but you really focused in on Twitter because that was always your bread and butter, right? So it's like you got rid of the shit that didn't really work and get focused in on what you needed to do.

Dakota:

Yeah, I find uh I'll use Twitter as a validating mechanism. So for like a short form post, like a short tweet as well, it's like, okay, there's something here with the idea. Let me expand upon that into a LinkedIn post, or let me expand upon that into a newsletter. And then it like gradually escalates up to a YouTube video. So that's a a really good tool. Even you know, if you're more on Instagram, like sharing stories, maybe you're talking and you get more reactions on a on a story than you know, something that you normally post. It's like there's something there. And looking at that, it's like, okay, what's the main idea upon this, and how can I expand upon this, maybe in a short form reel or you know, something else?

Darren Lee:

How do you reflect on the content? Because it sounds like you you spend a quite a bit of time going back and looking at things that are working or not working.

Dakota:

Well, and the main thing, I I don't spend too much time actually, I just look at what's my baseline. So I'll like scroll my timeline and I'll say, okay, I'm I'm averaging like 200 likes here or like maybe a hundred likes here. And if something gets 500 likes, I'm like, oh, there's something here. Like, what am I talking about in this post that I don't normally talk about? Or is it the format? So there's I think about content, there's like two things. So there's the the structure and the formatting of it, and then there's the idea behind it. So maybe I have a format where it's like a listicle and it's like all very like organized and sexy looking, and it's just aesthetically pleasing. And I could have a mediocre idea, but the format or the structure really carries it. Or I could have the idea where it's just like me just shooting an idea into the ether, but it really resonates with people and just like pops off. So like I talked about being a jack nerd, it's like that always pops because it's a big idea and it's like something that's different than what's being said normally.

Darren Lee:

Yeah, man, that's really cool. And then the video context, like the formats can be like this more masterclass, can be more like a podcast, could be street, could be talking head, could be like raw. So that's interesting. It's like looking at the format and just stripping that out first. Which format do you like doing? Number one, especially if it's like video, and then looking at the ideas within the video, and can we almost rinse and repeat them from there?

Dakota:

Yeah, 100%. It's like, yeah, like the the packaging is just as important as the uh what's actually in it. So, you know, you could do just a raw podcast and it might have amazing information, but it could be boring, it's not unique or whatever. But you add an iPad with visuals in it, yeah, and two sexy guys that have you know very good senses of humor and very funny.

Darren Lee:

Oh, you testosterone.

Dakota:

And yeah, and six foot five, and definitely not short.

Darren Lee:

You know, on my Tinder profile, I thought I was like six foot.

Dakota:

Did you actually? Yeah, no, that's so fucked up.

Darren Lee:

And it was it wasn't six foot, it was like I said I was like five eight, five eight and a half.

Dakota:

Well, you almost gotta add like an inch or two because so many people are uh lying about their height. So if you don't lie, it's inflation. Yeah, yeah, it's literally inflation, height inflation, yeah, everything rises up. Yeah, so if you say you're you're five eight, she assumes you're five six. And you're wearing sketchers, which you're gay, by the way.

Darren Lee:

Fuck you, man. Skechers are sick. But if you think about the sketcher foam, that like adds an extra inch. So there's like there's like the gay foam, and then there's you, and there's the tinder on top. So it's like that's an important piece with the content, right? Is he gonna make sure you gotta jaws it up? Yeah, but yeah, yeah. Yeah, add some pizzazz, you know?

Dakota:

Yeah, yeah, add a little sprinkle of autism. I don't know how I got to this point. You should see my Crocs, dude. I got Crocs recently, too.

Darren Lee:

You're really nerdy, bro.

Dakota:

Dude, yeah. I'm life. See, it's just all part of the personal brand.

Darren Lee:

Yeah, exactly. And you're jacked as well, which is the main thing. But where where do we where do we go from here? It's like uh from the volume of content, oh yeah, what I wanted to ask you was the the sales. All right, so you work with a lot of beginners, yes, which I was very surprised to hear that. I didn't realize that there were a lot of them were like complete noobs, like actual noobs. Um how do you how do you get clients when you have a small audience?

Dakota:

Yeah, so well that that's the thing. So the people I talk to or help, sorry, um they're becoming ghostwriters. And so one thing I tell them is you don't want to be a fat personal trainer where you can't walk the walk. Like if you're selling ghostwriting services and uh, oh, well, I'll grow you by a thousand followers a month and you only have 200 followers, like no one's taking seriously, right? So the first thing I tell them is like, we just need to start getting you to create content and actually growing your following. It's gonna increase your perceived authority and make you more comfortable when you land clients. Um, but basically, I'm just like running them through like create these types of content. Uh, talk about your story, all this stuff. Um, pick because a lot of people are like nine to fivers. So I'm like, pick a topic you're interested in, learn from people ahead of you, apply what you learn, and then teach people a few steps behind you, and you're gonna grow your audience that way. Because if you think about it at the end of the day, people are selfish. Like, I don't care if you like ice cream and you go on long walks on the beach. It's like I care how you can benefit me, at least at the start. And so if you're teaching something I'm interested in or you're helping me solve problems or get to a desired outcome, I'm going to probably follow you if the content's good because it's in my best interest. And over time, if that person's telling stories and sharing their personality, I'm probably gonna connect with them and they can tweet about whatever, and I'll be like, oh, that's funny, or that's cool, or I'm more interested because I'm invested in the person. But at the start, you need to understand like, why should someone care? Why would someone be invested in the content, or why would they want to click on uh my profile? And so, like, starting out, what's your value proposition to people and start you know giving value? Um, but like, how can you help people solve small problems or get to desired outcomes uh with your content? Like have it as a bridge.

Darren Lee:

It's kind of like a conundrum you have, though, right? It's like you're teaching people ghostwriting who don't have an a brand. So they're in a bit of a conundrum in the beginning until they like break out. Yeah. So how do they get clients?

Dakota:

So basically they start creating content about something they're interested in. That grows their account. Once they have like a thousand followers or they're growing consistently, that's when it's like, okay, let's start talking about the things you've accomplished. So here's how I grew to a thousand followers, or here's how my one post got a hundred likes, or whatever. It's like basically just showing, hey, I've done the thing that you want to do, or I've solved this problem. Here's how I did it. And you know, since business owners, they, you know, they see this content and they're like, oh, that's that makes sense, or that's useful. Maybe they even try it and they get some results or whatever. That just shows them, like, oh, you know what you're talking about. And a lot of these business owners, even if they do it for like a week or a month, they're not gonna stick with it because they're busy. They got shit to do and they just don't want to do it. They'd rather pay somebody else. And so who are they gonna think of when they need help with this? Oh, the person that's actually showing what they've done and what they've accomplished. Um, so I get them to create content once they grow their account to a decent size. That's when they start creating more of the authority content and how they did that. And then they have CTAs uh at the end of those calling out if you're this person, like in whatever niche, um, and want X result, DM me or click on my website or you know, whatever CTA. Um, and then like start conversations with people that are engaging with their content because those are gonna be the warmest ones, right? 100%. So if they already know you to some degree, there's so much more trust than reaching out to a stranger.

Darren Lee:

Dude, it's so funny you said that because I think like the biggest issue in like the content creator worlds is like you've content over here and you have the sales process here, and all content creators are too proud to send a DM, and then all business owners are too arrogant to create content. So it's like we have we're in this like massive, basically vortex whereby all the content creators are broke, and then all the business owners are actually also a broke man because they're not creating content. So my logic is like if you're creating like any sort of post in here, and then if you have a DM structure here, if you just hit people who like and comment, you will get leads. And then if you just do that repeatedly, so like and comment, you know, day two, and then these DM conversations they are individual sales pages. So you like I speak to you on January 1st, and we have a miniature engagement, it's semi-decent, and I just go back to doing this, and then I come back here on February 1st. The guy looks up and he's like, Who's that guy? Oh, okay, cool, and he keeps the conversation going. And that's just what the game is. It's just like this massive vortex of going in circles. Yep. But why don't people do this? Right? That's the whole point, is that I've been trying to show people this for fucking years, and they're like, Wait, what? And I because I think the I gotta be careful how I say this. The big accounts, what they kind of created was it's kind of like superiority, which is like you just grow your account and people come to you. And then it was just it was just really well known that you just create really good content and people come to you, and that's true. But I feel like the people that hit a landing page and book a call organically is going significantly down. Do you get me? Because it's the issue is that what I found is that the content is not personalist to to you. But if I like was looking at your scenario and I in DM, I was like, okay, great, you're interested in like losing body fat or whatever, but this is actually specifically what you need to do. You're like, oh, he's thinking of me in this context. And I just found that to just be so much more applicable because ideally that's what a sales call is anyway. It's a pain, problem, which is what content is, okay, identifying what it is, and then it's process and then price. Four Ps. Because this is personalized. Yeah. You know, and I think this is what what's ironic here is if you do this from organic, which is what we do, or you do it from paid, it's the same shit. So for organic, it's all one call, and for paid, it's two calls because it's the same shit. In the call, we'll look at, or like in the process or in the DM or whatever it is, we're just identifying is there a pain? Can I actually help this person? Do they have a problem and is an aggravated problem? If they know you from organic, they're gonna be like, look, the code, I've been following you for so long, let's discuss the process too. And if it's paid, it would be like, let's spend the first 45 minutes talking about the problem, the next 45 minutes mapping a personally solution to the process to your problem. Yeah, it's always the same shit, man.

Dakota:

Yeah.

Darren Lee:

But I just don't understand why people don't do it.

Dakota:

I think it's well, a lot of it, there's no immediate feedback or like positive feedback. So I think it's like they'll they might try and it's like, oh, there's no like I oh, I posted once, like I didn't get leads, like this doesn't work, or or had a conversation, you know.

Darren Lee:

But there's like a saying in B2B, which is like every sale is made up of um like 13 micro yeses. So it's like every sale has a series of micro yeses, it's not so the yes people think is like money in the bank, which is oral like the return or the feedback loop or whatever. But dude, if you create a content and you connect it with someone on LinkedIn, let's say, and they accepted a connection request, well, that's a win, right? Yeah. And then if they if you send them a message and they responded, that's a win. And then if you leave them cook and you go back and you respond, that's you go back and create more content, that's also another win.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Darren Lee:

So that's why I'm very curious about like your process for this, because um you just have a tough case with helping ghostwriters, right? It's just like a tough use case. Whereas like for me, it's like it's a little bit easier because if if someone's a fitness instructor and they're creating content, well, they're not judging how big their content is, they're judged on their quality of their information and their story.

Dakota:

Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, I think uh, yeah, a big hurdle, especially for like beginners, is like you're not just learning sales or you're not just learning content, you're like learning all of this, and it's it's completely new. So you gotta like really break it down in really simple terms, and it's it's definitely a challenge for a lot of people because it's just like all this new information, and then there's it can get overwhelming. So that's why we we just start with okay, let's just teach you content, very simple terms. Here's how to do it, and just focus on growing your account first. Okay, now you understand that. Now let's talk about you know, creating lead generation content or doing the sales call or uh doing the DMs. I'm definitely not the strongest with DMs.

Darren Lee:

I get tailing my partner to to do that stuff, but so would you and that's interesting, would you focus then from the lead generation on the lead magnets and so on? Because like your content is it's not, but it's like almost creator first, whereby it's really heavy on marketing and light on sales, which is fine. Like there's nothing wrong with that if you can crack it. Yeah, but I just mean like the percentage of people that can crack out of the high level fucking so small, man. Yeah, which is why there's a small percentage of big accounts that make money. But would you say you're much more focused on like cracking the content and cracking the lead magnet uh as a conversion mechanism into when you're running launches then or whatever?

Dakota:

Yeah, so one thing we do that we start, well, what we started doing was like running people through a free course. So like all of the organic would go to that lead magnet on free course on the ghostwriting because one thing we have with ghostwriting is people don't know what the hell it is. And so we have to educate them on what ghostwriting is, uh, basically show them uh what's possible with it, all of that. And so we have that, and then it's basically a community, and then that gives us the opportunity to have a setter talk to them. We have called it.

Darren Lee:

Has a community there, yeah, yeah.

Dakota:

So it's connected to my paid community, but they can't see any of the paid stuff. Um, so it's like sectioned off. Um, so we can mark them so we can see where did they come from. Uh, basically, when they join, they get automated DMs from uh the setter uh and the content we have CTAs, hey, message this person.

Darren Lee:

Where what platform is this on?

Dakota:

It's called Heartbeat. No one knows what it is.

Darren Lee:

You explained this to me before. It's just basically like a shit version of school, but it's not a shit version of school, it's a superior version of school. So you go from here into a call?

Dakota:

Uh yeah, basically I book a call. And then what we did recently was the content to webinar to call. Um before that, it was like uh before the lead magnet was content VSL to call. Um, so we've done a bunch of different stuff.

Darren Lee:

And that's all organic.

Dakota:

Yeah, all organic. Do you find that to have a tough like consistency? Yeah, uh hundred percent, especially like the past year, because it's just gotten so much, like so many more info people, like so many more businesses, so much more content. Um, so it's definitely not as great as it used to be. Um, so that's why we're adding in the paid ads uh going forward. Uh, but yeah, it's like organic's not reliable because you know, one algorithm changed and everything's thrown off, right? And so you're really increasing your risk if you're just reliant on organic. And I think it's kind of back to the content and the sales side. It's like it's content and ads are like, you know, uh, it's not one or the other, it's like how can you do both? Because the content will do the nurturing and the ads can get more people in front of your profile. And then it's like they work together synergistically, it's not just yeah, man, one or the other.

Darren Lee:

The way that I think about this is so it's funny, if you go deeper into ads, it's basically organic. It's just they're just coming in from a different way. It's the same concept. Yeah, so the way I think about this is you've hot people here, and not just hot people, but I just mean the hot lead the hot leads, then you have warm, and then you have cold. Okay, so I'm just gonna explain the concept and then we'll look at it through the lens of whether it's organic or or paid. The whole goal is to strike all the iron's hot with these people, get them booked in, get them to buy. The whole goal of warm is to move them into hot when the time is right, and the whole goal of Cold is to get them into a warm state. And the whole goal of outside of this is to get as many people in the cold as possible. How is that any different than pay and organic? It's the same thing. Just you create content that increases the awareness. You get a post that has 500 likes versus 100 likes. You get more people into this sphere. They're like, oh, I like this guy. Maybe I'll take the next step. Oh, I like this guy. Maybe I'll come into this zone when he's running a webinar. So it's the same shit, man.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Darren Lee:

It's just how they got there was slightly different. And I know this to be true because I think I told you a store with Carolyn Ormason, where I had a podcast with him and he's making like 300k a month. And then they got to like a million a month in six months. And he was like, Man, the leads from cold are actually better because it's more intent. The warm leads back to the day from organic were like, oh, but we were friends on TikTok. You know? Yeah. And he was like, Well, what? Whereas he just set up all of his content to help people get into freelance copywriting. And he just had a ton of people in cold, like I mean like hundreds of thousands of people, and they were just focused on pushing them up, pushing them up, pushing them up. And he was like, Yeah, man, it's a hundred times better than organic. Yeah. It's like all it's a bit of a mindset because mindset ref reframe because when you're so when you're on an organic core for so many years, you kind of like, oh, I don't need it. I'm better than it. And it's just a wrong mindset that you know, it's kind of like getting into bodybuilding and being like, I don't need to do cardio. And it's like, well, you could die if you don't do it, you know. And it's like, I'm just gonna go to the gym and do this. It's like, yeah, sure, okay, but you're just thinking of it the wrong way.

Dakota:

Yeah. Especially like I was doing a launch uh like two years ago, and literally two days before the launch, my Instagram got banned.

Darren Lee:

Oh, I remember that.

Dakota:

Yeah, and I if that was my only platform, I would have been effed, right? And so if I didn't have LinkedIn and Twitter and whatever, um, yeah, it would have been horrible. And then uh thankfully I got it unbanned, but that was like a few days after the launch, and it really like threw a wrench in things. And like I couldn't imagine if you're just relying on one platform and one channel, yeah. Like you're you're fucked.

Darren Lee:

Crazy, man. Anything around this instead, as well, you want to add like so when your clients are getting clients, so like how you would recommend them doing that sort of a one thing I think works really well for beginners, especially is doing free work.

Dakota:

Um, because one, if you're a beginner and you haven't had clients before, you're gonna have a higher level of pressure on you to get results if you have someone paying you like $3K a month or something from the get-go. And it's like it's not a good feeling because you're like, oh shit, what if I don't get a results? And so starting with free work is a great way to not only get experience and build your confidence, but also you get a case study, get a testimonial potentially, and then leverage that in your content to actually get paid clients. Um, so I think offering free work is a is a great way to start. Um, so you could write you know one to seven posts for somebody, just give it to them for free. Um, and that can open up the conversation to getting on a strategy call. It's like, okay, so I got these posts for you. Um here I can walk you through of how you how to actually implement this or a strategy. And you just get them on a basically like a sales call, pretty much. And that gives you more reps to practice your sales skills. Um, or if they do post the content and it gets good results, then it opens up the opportunity to land them as a client. So for example, I'm only talking about this because Rob's talked about this publicly, but I ghost wrote for Rob Lipsit. But the way I landed them as a client was I just said, hey, I wrote you like uh X amount of posts. You can have them completely for free. Um, you know, my goal is to land you as a client, but I want you to, you know, try them out first. He used the the tweets, got really good results, and that got me on uh that opened up the opportunity to get on a sales call with him and then you know work with him. Um that's crazy, but yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's pretty sick. Um so yeah, and then I did the same with Dan Coe. Like he was technically my first client uh because I I wrote for him for free, got really good results. I got a testimonial from him, used that on my landing page, and even though I wrote for him for free, that resulted in like hundreds of thousands of dollars in leads because people saw like, oh shit, he got this result for Dan. This is before he was big, but um he was still pretty big back then, man. Yeah, I guess he had like 50k followers.

Darren Lee:

Yeah, so maybe back then. It's funny. Uh, Mike copywriter, this woman that I met at an event, like I was speaking at an event. I was saying I was looking for a copywriter, and she stayed up all night, wrote me a letter that was 12 pages long. It was like a personal letter. I hired her, even though I had hired someone else at the time. I was like, ah, fuck it, I'll bring you in. She wrote a bunch of copy for me. It was a very valuable. She updated some of the call funnels, the text and call funnels and so on. And then I was like, look, you know, we don't have capacity, we don't need basically an extra pair of hands anymore. And what I did was I paid her and then recommended her to all of my high-end clients. So I just put her contact details into a group of like 50 people that are all making 100k plus more a month. And she was like, Yep. I was like, here's the person because Conor Turvey needs some stuff. So that opens up her entire floodgates. She wanted to do the work for free, but I wasn't gonna give it to her for free, right? But that's the value of it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Darren Lee:

Good person, kind heart, wanted to help, a hundred her because she wanted to help, she did great work, and then I recommended her to other people. Versus, I think I deserve $5k a month and you gotta pay up front for a year. Yeah, you know, it's just like you you are entitled. Yeah, 100%. And because you're reading someone else who is entitled, yeah, telling you to do that. Yep. And it's different stages of business, as you said at the very beginning of this conversation. Like, don't follow someone else's just verbatim way to create content or follow their plan because if they're making if they're at a hundred thousand followers, their ideas are gonna be fucking vastly different than yours. Yeah, it's crazy, right?

Dakota:

Yeah, they're just like, oh, just post value, bro. It's like, dude, you have a hundred thousand followers, it's totally different than if you're at a hundred. So like what got you there is not what's gonna get someone to a different spot.

Darren Lee:

Yeah, 100% recognizing that. Yeah, the other thing as well on this is just how much grunt work that needs to be done for people in the beginning that it gets overshadowed, right? Because everyone is selling like new, easy, novel, and so on. Like, I recommend that everyone to do 50 DMs and 50 follow-ups a day because you're just gonna increase your surface area of luck. At the end of the month, you're just talking to thousands of people, and it's as if you have fucking a tiny audience. Yeah. Good offer, you're good at what you do, you experience what you do, but you need to do a bit more grunt work. Are you gonna do that forever? No.

Dakota:

But in the beginning, you definitely need to do stuff, right? Yeah, 100%. It's like that's why I talk about I was talking about this recently on a call, but like the thing that separates people that are successful and not successful is uh they have like a strong why. So especially as a beginner, like a lot of people are just really comfortable with their job, like they're not happy, but they're like, yeah, it's like whatever. But it's like, oh, I want to make 10k a month and do all this stuff, but they don't really have a reason why. Like, oh, I try to make 10k a month just because and they don't have like the emotion connected to it. And so when challenges arise, it's so easy for them to fall back on what's comfortable and just go back to doing the same old shit, opposed to the people that have a strong reason why and emotionally feel invested in this. Those are the people that succeed. So, for example, like I worked a ton of jobs before I got into online business and I hated working for other people. I absolutely hated. I couldn't stand the thought of actually working a job for 40 years and hoping to get a raise and like being surrounded by miserable people. And that thought just drove me to do the uncomfortable stuff, like post the cringe content, get on the awkward sales calls, do all that. But a lot of people they don't understand why they're doing shit. And then so they place their comfort, they prioritize that over whatever challenge comes up.

Darren Lee:

Yeah, people prefer to take a guaranteed life in mediocrity than a chance of like breaking free from their current existence. Oh, that's a that's a tweet, right? You can feel that it all breaks down to this though. Hey, when they're building something new or doing something new, like anything. So building a ghost trading business, building an online business, whatever. Do they know what to do? So initially, you probably don't know anything. Do they know when they should be doing it? So when should they be posting? When should it be? I the way I think about this is like client acquisition in the morning, content and sales calls, delivery in the evening. Do they know how to do it? More than likely not. And again, do they know why? Like what's the underlying driver to do this? This is like the non-negotiables. If you looked at someone like a client or or someone coming in like a prospect, I'm always thinking through this lens, why are they not getting why don't they have the result that they want? Whether that's like 10k a month, 100k a month, it's always this frame. And lastly, then are they motivated to do it? Because if they have all this checked and they're not doing it here, they're never gonna be successful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, don't be a pussy.

Darren Lee:

But genuinely, though, like I've seen people that are fucking super dialed in that have great teaching and great coaching, team members, like people that are like internal to companies as well as external business owners. But if they don't have that actual drive to do it, they're just we can't help you, right? There's nothing you can do. And I know many people that fall into that category. Yeah. And the reason why is because the smartest people in the world are not the riches, they're just not, and they have the what, the when, the why, probably don't have the why. They have the what, the when, the how. They probably don't have the why. Because they're probably thinking of something else. Because if it was all based on intelligence, the money would go to the most intelligent people, but the money goes to people that are just autistically going to bang their head off the wall and they're gonna make it work.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, your balls will get you farther in life than your brains.

Darren Lee:

Quite literally, man. Quite literally. Man, big thank you. This is fucking sick. Really good, super, super valuable, super helpful. If there's any of those documents, too, as well, that you want to share as well. Yeah, that'll be super valuable. Yeah, yeah, I'll give it to you.