Kickoff Sessions

#322 Ryan Moresby-white - The Brutal Truth About Money, Power, and Burnout

• Darren Lee

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Ryan:

The more we grow as a team, as a company, as a mission, as a brand, the more of a journey of letting go it is than actually taking on.

Darren:

If you're trying to regulate your nervous system to expand your horizons, whether that's relationships or for your business, how do you understand where you're currently at with your nervous system so that you can actually make an improvement so that you can better your life?

Ryan:

We have this thing called the fake window of tolerance. This is where most people actually operate. So we've got this healthy nervous system that can experience contraction and expansion, right? It can go up and down. Key word is it can come back down. What goes up has to come back down. And if you don't have ways to soothe your nervous system, regulate your nervous system, this is where people hit burnout, this is where people crash, this is where people achieve a wild level of success. And then how do you expand your capacity to allow success? If we're talking financial success, business success, creating wealth, generating wealth.

Darren:

From your experience, what's the one major bottleneck that's holding people back from achieving their goals?

Ryan:

Depends what goals we're talking about. Uh, business, relationship, health. Within those three categories, what comes to mind would be a lack of capacity in each of them. And what I mean by that is uh capacity meaning the capacity within your nervous system and within how you see yourself, the self-image that you have, the beliefs that you hold, and your nervous system's identity, because we have a we have a nervous system identity as well. And it's kind of like a like a thermostat that'll regulate us back down to what we believe to be true about ourselves, and then our nervous system will also uh expand to the the size of the container that we believe that we're either worthy of or that we have uh yeah, that we've created for ourselves. So I would say in all of those three, it it would be uh it'd come down to to capacity.

Darren:

How do you expand your capacity to allow success?

Ryan:

If we're talking financial success, business success, creating wealth, generating wealth, uh growing, scaling your company, your team, or whatever it is, the more I've personally grown in that way, in that field, it's required more responsibility. And typically when we're asked to take on more responsibility, it also reveals all of the younger parts of us as well that also come up that might not feel worthy of the thing that you want to create. Uh responsibility will awaken these younger, which will speak about what I mean younger parts, uh the little boy or the little girl. It'll it like business creating success is like one of the most spiritual personal growth journeys you'll ever go on because that maturation process, the maturing that it requires to actually expand your capacity to either feel worthy of what it is that you're creating, and then to have the space in your nervous system to actually uh achieve that thing or create that thing is is is uh it's a it's it's a lot, it's a it's a lot of responsibility in uh how we actually expand that nervous system and create that is a couple different things. Um, first of all, it's challenging our belief in the way that we actually see ourselves. Do you deem yourself worthy of what it is that you actually want to create? And that's uh so it it begins with the self-image that we hold about ourselves. And again, the more layers and levels of success that I've created, the more it's challenged the parts of me that haven't felt worthy of the thing that I want, right? Uh, but within that is actually a uh there's a contraction within the nervous system as well. If I don't feel that I am worthy of making a certain amount of money per month, my nervous system, if I make more than what I feel I'm worthy of, it's actually a threat to my nervous system because it goes against my identity, my self-image. And when we go against our identity, our self-image, it's a threat to our nervous system because our nervous system only knows safety based on what's familiar. If what's familiar is I am unworthy of making $100,000 a month, that's familiar to your nervous system. So anything other than that, if you make $105,000, it's gonna exceed the ceiling within your nervous system and go against everything you've ever believed to be true about yourself, which is unfamiliar to your nervous system, which is unsafe to your nervous system. And when it's unsafe, therefore, we go into shutdown or we do something to fuck it up. We do something to sabotage it to bring it back down to what's safe and comfortable for our nervous system. So yeah.

Darren:

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Ryan:

The way it's unfolded for me is we have we have this thing called the window of tolerance with within our in our nervous system. It comes from the work from Dr. Stephen Porges, which is polyvagal theory. And basically what it is is he's he shows this graph or this uh scale of what we have is our window of tolerance. Anything outside of the window of tolerance is what is activating to our nervous system, which is fight or flight, right? And then outside of fight or flight, when you can't result to fight or flight anymore, we go into shutdown. Okay. So a healthy nervous system is one that can flow between this natural window of tolerance. So basically, what a window of tolerance is, is you can go up into parasympathetic into sympathetic activation, right? So you can go into fight or flight and you can come back down. But the issue is when you can't come back down because you're you're stuck in this, in this, this maybe identity of I'm not enough, so I have to keep doing. I'm not enough, I have to keep driving, striving, achieving whatever it is, right? You don't uh or you just you you struggle to sit still, or maybe you've had an amazing month, but you haven't actually fully received it in your body and it hasn't landed for you yet. Uh a healthy nervous system is one that can go up but also come back down.

Darren:

What's coming up for me here is when we did our bread work session at my event, and you came over to me and you said that specifically in my stomach, it felt like I was like holding something here a lot, and I felt like I was almost like stuck in here. That's coming up for me right now, and it's quite an interesting observation because it's it is it is that my question is how what's the difference between that and tolerating negatives? Because you know, we always say, like, why do you tolerating your business? What is going on in your business right now that you're tolerating? You know, we have a successful business, so do you. I felt at times I've been tolerating shit for longer than I needed to, yeah. And then also just as we're growing, it's obviously cause an impact positively and negatively at the same time. So, what's what's the question? When you reference that study about what you're tolerating in terms of what can come into your nervous system, what's the case when people are tolerating so much shit that's kind of beating them down on top of that? Whether it's bad team members, bad relationship, bad friends. It sounds like there's like a double-edged sword of the tolerating, tolerating, right? And they're in that state of stress versus coming down and regulating.

Ryan:

Yeah. We have this thing called the fake window of tolerance. This is where most people actually operate. So we've got this healthy nervous system that can experience contraction and expansion, right? It can go up and down. Key word is it can come back down, right? Because eventually, like what goes up has to come back down. And if you don't have ways to soothe your nervous system, regulate your nervous system, this is where people hit burnout, this is where people crash, this is where people achieve a wild level of success and then experience deep depression or just have huge crashes or lose it all or whatever is because they haven't learned ways how to actually integrate this uh this new capacity. Okay. So that's a healthy nervous system, one that can come up and down, and you can flow in between this sense of safety. And when when we're in this, what I call the it's called the green zone, this is where we're in create and this is the crazy part about uh about this is most people are afraid. I know a lot of entrepreneurs are afraid to actually slow down and prioritize regulating their nervous system because they think it's not productive. But here's the thing when you're operating in the green zone, this is literally where creativity comes from. Like creativity comes from boredom, it comes from the stillness, from the silence, from the slowness. This is where you're most open. This is where you're literally like your power, like your most creative. This is where those things that you've been probably like the decisions you've been stewing on for months just drop in. It's like, oh, that's what I'm gonna do. Like it's just so clear. Um, so that that's that's the healthy nervous system. But the fake window of tolerance is when we are in a state of constant activation all the fucking time. We're constantly in this perpetual state of sympathetic mode of this cortisol activation, fight or flight all the freaking time. We have what's called a fake window of tolerance where we we kind of bounce up and down from shutdown, which is overwhelm. Fuck this, I can't do this anymore. I'm done with this. Turn to scrolling, Netflix, porn, drinking, vaping, smoking, sex, anything to get out of this feeling. So shut down is I can't be with this anymore, and I need I need to escape and I need something to to to make me feel better. That's shutdown. Uh, but beneath that in the red zone, shutdown's blue. Beneath that in the in the red is the sympathetic, which is that uh fight or flight, is the I can do this. I can do this, I can do this, right? I can keep pushing, I can keep striving, and then we bounce from I can do this to I can't fucking do this. I can do this, right? So we're bouncing in this fake window of tolerance where we're not actually operating from this safe zone of capacity. So it's not a real capacity, it's not an actual uh openness. You your nervous system's in a perpetual state of contraction, and over a long enough period of time, it is a matter of time, right, before what goes up has to come back down, and you'll be forced. It like there's so many stories out there of people who've achieved amazing success and then became extremely sick, right? At some point, you will be forced to sit in stillness, to slow down, to actually prioritize your nervous system. And if you're willing to listen to the subtle signs now, um amazing, but I I've I've seen too many entrepreneurs burn out and kill themselves along the way. I've almost done it myself too. Yeah.

Darren:

What do you think of what do you think was the underlying reason why they were perpetually working harder?

Ryan:

Yeah, I think because we live in a society that rewards people who are perform at such a high level that's beyond human. We've we literally reward it. Like it's and to be operating at that level, you can't always just be in this green zone. This, this, this, this, uh, this regulated zone. You can't always be in that. So this fake window of tolerance bouncing between constant activation and shutdown, what keeps us there is we have things to cope and manage, like coffee.

Darren:

Yeah. As we're drinking coffee, right? I think that the biggest thing is for me that I kind of think about true this problem, is it's not a problem until it is a problem. And you know, first happens slowly, then it all happens at once. It comes crashing down, it affects other areas of your life, your relationships, your health, which is less obvious in the short term and more obvious in the long term. When you measure the creativity, if you think about like the entrepreneur or just anyone, like a lot of the reason why you'll get out of the situation that you're in will be based on your creative solutions. Let me give you an example. If you remember like Steve Jobs back in the day, he literally went to India to become more creative. He got rid of his shoes, he walked around India. Bill Gates, once a month or once a quarter, would go to a cabin and read 60 books in a weekend or whatever that was. They were deliberately looking at these windows of opportunity to become more creative, which allowed them to regulate their nervous system, come back down. Um, I just spoke this morning about this about how we need to have those 24 hours or 48 hours to be able to realign priorities. Now, my question for you is like, this is obviously different for everyone. So, how can someone who's already operating at a high level implement this without feeling like they're going backwards?

Ryan:

Yeah, it's really important to understand that we are seasonal beings, that we are very connected to nature, and just as nature goes through seasons, so so do we.

Darren:

Awesome.

Ryan:

Yeah, but when most people want to spend their entire life in summer, what they're doing is what you resist will persist. So when you push away winter, it's gonna smack you in the face real fucking hard. So basically, it's honoring that we are seasonal beings and you've got to intentionally allow yourself to go into the cave for a little bit, to be quiet for a little bit, to be in stillness, to slow down. Because what happens in the stillness is the essential integration of this identity. That's the key piece. The more success that I've created, the more time I actually spend time on my own in stillness in the cave, slowly integrating, creating space for my nervous system to catch up. If your nervous system doesn't catch up and you're operating at a level, let's say your nervous system is thermostat level 20, and you've just achieved level 100, but you've never you haven't actually integrated that in your nervous system, right? And it's now I'm just gonna keep pushing these results of 100 because this is what's normal for me now, and then you just I can't actually keep this anymore. I right? I don't I don't have it within my nerves, like in my in my uh I just I just can't, you know. You you eventually, for example, with my content, right? For two two full years, I posted three to four times every single day by myself while running a team, while coaching the guys, while doing sales and stuff like that. And for a long time it was manageable until it wasn't. And I woke up one day, I'm like, my my body literally can't do it. Like, I can't pick up my phone, I can't look at my phone, and I just can't do it anymore. Um, so I've actually been in an intentional season of uh slowing down and actually integrating the last few years and now going, okay, cool, how am I gonna do things differently and do it from a real capacity within my nervous system instead of this fake reactive mode of waking up every day and just being in in reacting, yeah.

Darren:

And I think just an observation I've made of you as well is you've you've leveled up so much as a result of that. You've gone from doing all your content yourself, being like the hustler and executor to building a team to taking on that leader responsibility, to instilling your beliefs, to educating and inspiring people around you. So part of your slowing down process is you actually monumentally jumping up, and that's been fucking awesome to observe in you, right? To see that jump. So it's it's almost like you don't need to do the things that got to where you are now if you truly want to level up one in your business, but two as a person because you can't run a huge sales team, content team, delivery team all at once. So again, you only rise to the level of your nervous system, yes, many regards. Yeah, and also, man, like your business is a reflection of you. So if you're chaotic running around in madness, who do you attract? And also what is your business? What is the actual inner workings of your business like? Before we move any further, I have one short question to ask you. Have you been enjoying these episodes so far? Because if you have, I would truly appreciate it if you subscribe to the channel to help more business owners grow their online business today.

Ryan:

The whole the identity piece, uh the more and I'll say it for the listeners, I'm 28 years old and I've made millions of dollars, and I live a pretty epic life. I'm not gonna lie. Um the more success, the more we grow as a team, as a company, as a mission, as a brand, the more I actually have to let go. The more of a journey of letting go it is than actually taking on. Now, the concept of letting go requires a very key aspect that 99% of the population are completely disconnected from, which is Grieving. If you are unable to intentionally live in relationship with grief, you aren't able to honor the seasons. You aren't able to allow the old versions of you that got you to where you are today to actually die. And there's a deep grieving process in that. And what I mean by grieving is I've noticed that when I achieve a whole new level of, let's say, monthly income or amount of views or whatever, or social media uh engagement, what I notice is there's the more I achieve, like I achieve this new level, there's like a there's like a tighter grip around it. There's like a more of a grasping of like a more of an attachment to this thing of like, well, I've just hit this much, much money per month, or I've just reached a million followers. And it's like this. I notice when I reach that milestone, there's like this attachment. And I actually intentionally, every time I reach a milestone, I will go into a breath work or into a deep meditation practice, and I will actually intentionally practice letting it all go, burning it all to the ground, allowing it to actually all disappear. And for me to not have a fucking social media, for me to not have any money in my bank account, because what I'm doing is I'm actually allowing myself to grieve what got me there. So I'm no longer attached to that, if that makes sense.

Darren:

So as a result, you can actually open up more space for where you want to go to. Yes. Why do you think that attachment is always there? Is it more like a loss aversion just in life, right? We chased a girl that you know like breaks a guy's heart, or we can't let go of the relationship, or we can't get let go of an argument, right? We hold a grudge. Like, where does that stem from that festers and you know and manifest in your relationship and your business everywhere?

Ryan:

Yeah, I think as much as we say our our mission is about the impact, right? This is a whole conversation of self, man. Yeah, uh, for most people, there's you know, there's still quite a level of attachment there around you know what that thing is gonna bring you. 100%, yeah, 100%. And that's human, you know.

Darren:

Of course. What the fuck are you doing there? Yeah, you know, we don't have to be altruistic completely. Yeah, you want to make sure that you're helping people in general, but you don't need to be fully, oh yes, I'm gonna give away all my money to charity. It's like you don't need to do that, you don't need to say that. You can have self-motivations and help people, yeah.

Ryan:

I would say the attachment, the attachment typically comes from what it is that you thought that that thing would bring you, and then it didn't bring you the feeling that you thought it would, so it becomes this even more okay. Well, I need two million followers, and maybe I'll feel that way if I have two million. So the letting go is actually the letting go of what it was that you thought that you would feel, or that this thing would actually bring you, or what you thought would finally happen. And what I mean by this is a lot of the times, especially men in business, they're climbing this ladder of success. They and I you could consciously be aware of this as much as you want, but there's deep unconscious wounding and work that's actually happening that is beyond your conscious mind. Most men are climbing a ladder that's up a wall, and the little boy within him one day put this ladder up against the wall, hoping that at the top of that ladder would be dad's approval. So he achieves the level of success or whatever, and he's like, it just doesn't feel yeah, it's cool, whatever numbers, yeah, I'm gonna live an amazing life. There's just this something's just missing. I'm just gonna keep working somewhere, I'm just gonna keep going. What's the next thing, right? But without acknowledging the deep underlying emotion or deep underlining driver of the thing that you thought that you were gonna get when you finally got there, without acknowledging that, again, it just becomes a perpetual state of you're living in survival, climbing this ladder, hoping that you might get to one certain stage where you're gonna get what you needed as a little boy. And this is where until we actually grieve our childhood and reclaim that the the little boy within us, uh, or the little girl, we are continuously seeking to fulfill what we didn't have in childhood in the world, from the world. If you didn't get the approval from your father, you'll probably build a business that gives you a lot of attention and approval. And it'll never feel enough. But what it is metaphorically that you're you're seeking and striving towards is this invisible parental, this parental figure that that it'll never feel enough because you can't fulfill what you didn't have in childhood today. It's impossible.

Darren:

So let's get really granular that. So like I would say like I would largely fall into that bracket. So like I was from like a sport family. Well, I was the athlete in the family, it was a sport family. Um, like the plan was to be a professional athlete because I was tick as thick as a wall as a kid. Uh obviously had like a really bad relationship with my family, like disconnected from my family, all this kind of stuff. But it came from like that extreme pressure, and then compli comp like adding to that is my interest in sport, of course, which then all adjusted towards business, content world, all things like this. So I recognize that like that's a deep seated approach coupled with you know years of abuse as a child, like very, very bad abuse as a child. However, I don't recognize whether I've whether I appreciate I would consider myself to appreciate the moment now and appreciate what we do now, but then it's kind of like a you don't know what you don't know. So how does someone how does someone know if they're appreciating the moments that they're in? Like how well how do you know that, right? Yeah is there something that you can kind of work towards to be like, oh, I do appreciate it, because I would say that I would, but maybe your observation, if you went deeper, is like, oh no, you're not, and like that's completely fair, right? It's kind of like when someone in the business says they're doing great and they're actually you know all their markers are red. It's like you didn't know that thing until someone who knew that thing told you how it was meant to be and a flag red.

Ryan:

Yeah. It comes in someone's inability to be like deeply present. Like a lot of people think that they can be present, but I guarantee you it's you're right. Can you create enough space and stillness to deeply become present with like the subtlety of of this moment? And can you be deeply present to it it's a hard thing to actually try and explain because it's it's an experiential thing. It's kind of like it's difficult to feel the subtlety of the present moment when you're constantly running, you're constantly on the go, right? If your nervous system feels that you're constantly running from a lion, right, there's no stopping and smelling the roses. Right, because you're in you're literally in survival. I have I have to keep running. But if we slow down enough to recognize like the lion that's actually behind us, pushing us, chasing us, right? This this metaphorical lion, which is typically a deep wound from childhood. If we can slow down enough to actually become present with that, right, and create safety in our nervous system from that place, right? Uh we basically come down into the safe zone, the green zone, where it's like, oh, okay, like I can actually, I can, I can be here. And within that is a real deep subtlety of presence because think about it. So your your ego is constantly it thinks in um like linear time, past, present, future. So and by the way, this is one of the most rare traits that most men actually struggle with is to actually just be present, and it's the most rare trait, and it's also the most valued trait by a woman as well, which is like explains most relationships, right? Deep presence is so come to come back to our conscious mind, it works on past, present, and future. In this present moment, right, we know that we're a grown adult man, right? We got a job, we got responsibilities, whatever. Right. We're consciously aware of the future, what what might happen in the future, and we're consciously aware of the past. Okay now our conscious mind is only five to seven percent of us. The rest is unconscious, it's it's deep unconscious patterns and beliefs and identity and emotions, which is the 95 to 97% of us, literally controls every part of what we do. Now if you haven't truly gone back into and basically the the unconscious mind doesn't operate on a timeline, it doesn't know time. That's the thing with it. The conscious mind knows time, past, present, future. So because the unconscious doesn't know time, it can't tell the difference between when you were five years old and you had to prove yourself for your dad to be emotionally present with you compared to today. Your your unconscious, like your body doesn't know the difference, right? So until we slow down enough to become present with these younger parts of us, these wounds that are actually controlling and driving our life, are you truly present? And most men are in a perpetual state of anxiety, worry, doubt, fear, anxiousness from the fear of what might happen in the future based on what happened in the past. They're projecting their past wounds into the future of what might happen in this present moment because their body can't tell the difference.

Darren:

Super interesting because I'm just thinking about what's the reaction to that. If I'm fearful of the future, what might happen, the catastrophes might happen, what am I going to do today? I'm gonna work, I'm gonna overstimulate myself at work, which feels like a present moment thing because you are just like in the moment. If I'm working, dude, like I'm very much like locked in, like I'm thinking of what I'm doing, and I actually feel at peace when I'm working because I know I'm contributing towards the anti-feeling of being fucking anxious. So I know that this is a net in isolation, it's a net positive positive thing because then I get rid of the future anxiety, which is based off of more anxiety when I don't work for like 20 minutes. Yeah, not taking the fact the impact it has on multiple different domains of life of health plus relationships. It sounds like to me that if you don't know are you living in the present or not, then you're definitely not living in the present. You're not able to establish a present. Now, the big question, the big caveat for people, or the big, you know, people are like this is great, but the objection might be well, I don't want to slow down. And this is something that actually, you know, given feedback to you, whenever I work with people with person development offers, I always say the only thing you got to be careful of is if you're going to help people with this, the entrepreneur or the successful person is conscious of the amount of work that's necessary. Now, everyone wants the magic bullet, but I mean, specifically with this stuff, because it's so new and novel to them, they're like, I don't want to put 40 hours in a week to pull back 40 hours from my business. Maybe I could put that into my into my business. How do you how do you solve that objection for someone? Are you an agency owner, coach, or consultant looking to scale your online business? At VOX, we help business owners scale their online business with content. We help them specifically build a high-ticket offer, create content that turns into clients, and also help them with the sales process to make sure every single call that's booked in your calendar turns into a client. If you want to see more about exactly how we do this, hit the first link down below and watch a full free training on how smart entrepreneurs are building a business in 2025.

Ryan:

I'll speak on the behalf of men because I work with thousands of men. Um they don't realize that's a problem, or they don't realize there is a problem until there's a breakdown in their relationship. And this is where the feminine, the right woman, will poke at all of the holes on a man's bucket. Right? She will reveal to him where he's living out of integrity with his soul, basically. And this is where a lot of high-performing men would rather just be single because they avoid that initiation from the feminine. It's a lot easier to just be on your own, stay in your bedroom, lock in, and just keep working. Right? Where you understand that it's seasonal and you're able to honor the seasons and what the seasons are needing, but the inability to actually be seasonal and slow down or speed up or whatever, like that that's the problem. Now that's chronic. That's chronic high functioning. High functioning anxiety, right? Yes.

Darren:

Yeah, you're running from something. We had a client before that would literally had that as a that's what she did. She was a therapist. It's high functioning anxiety for entrepreneurs.

Ryan:

Yeah. Yeah. It's high functioning because it's it's functionable, like it works, and you get rewarded for it, and it does well, right? And that's the that's like the the paradox to it, right? It's like there's this bad thing that actually has a good outcome. Yes. Fuck. Until, but here's the thing, and this is why I every single day, I actually it's a practice of mine. I meditate on death, on me dying. I meditate on all of the people that I love most around me dying. My mom, my dad, my brother, my sister, my friends, me, my future family, my future wife. Like, I meditate on them actually dying, being on their deathbed, because what death actually teaches us is what actually fucking matters. It brings us straight back into like what is real. And maybe you notice or experience some of that with you know this what you've recently gone through. But grief does this thing where it just brings us into the realness and subtlety of life, like what genuinely actually matters. For some people, they want to just, you know, make a whole heap of money and not feel anything. But I know that the fullness of life, the full experience of life comes in the depth and the subtlety of being able to actually feel it fully and to be fully alive.

Darren:

Yeah, I dude. So for context on this, I said this to Tom the other day. We'd record a podcast on Friday, and I said, So the best days in your in your business are completely mutually exclusive to the worst days of your life. Unless they're tied in tandem, you can have an amazing business and a terrible thing can still happen to you. We still experience grief, debt, sorrow, despair, pain. Just because you're successful doesn't mean you can you're not you're gonna be uh exempt from it. Perfect example was we made like $530,000 in one month, and on the same day, my dog passed away. Same day. And I said to the guys that I would have exchanged that money to live another day with the dog.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Darren:

And I was joking saying the sales reps wouldn't be that happy with that process. But that's the irony, is like in that moment, it's like, well, what actually matters? And it's like, again, we're not saying we're too altruistic, like we still need money to buy shit to live a good life. Like, when that's not the angle we're going at here, but it's it's just really good to like experience that emotion and think like, okay, what are you what are you experiencing in that moment and what actually is valuable? So again, like what I value is like my wife, our dogs, our team, our friends, all that stuff is like what's valuable, and then all the other stuff is kind of like it's like the the muse around it. It exists within it, yeah, but if you don't appreciate it in that moment, and it's funny because when my dog did pass away, which is you know, people value humans, fucking dogs, different things, you know, people value different things. But what was very interesting to me was we had this like beautiful ceremony, it was really nice, and different emotions were constantly coming up. It was like anger, pain, frustration, because he wasn't sick his entire life until the very end, as well as that like a huge appreciation and and yeah, appreciation, joy, some elements of regret, and it's like for the first time in my life for a long time for sure. I kind of let those emotions flow. Whereas when it comes to the business, it's more just get shit done, get the right people to do that stuff. There is no emotion in that context. There's a difference emotion, but is there really emotion? Like, not really, you know what I mean?

Ryan:

I I I feel that the the more you grow and scale a company, uh typically, the more numb you actually have to become.

Darren:

100%.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Darren:

I don't know some people that work out of my company. Yeah, that's just the reality. I didn't hire them. Yeah. I don't interact on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, there's like that, there's nothing wrong with that inherently, but I mean that's the reason why. So because for a little bit of context, they call it the uh like the valley of debt from 10 to 13 people is generally where most businesses crash because they're slowly letting go of like, oh, like I knew your birthday and I I know your mom's name and I knew your dog's name. And then like where we're at, like twenty five people, it's like I just don't know some people. And like that means we a different motivation, leadership need to be installed, which I mentioned about whatever.

Ryan:

recognized in you but that's like some of the semantics behind like how do you actually integrate and show up as a as a leader because dude I look I look at um I look at dashboards every day man yeah I don't look at people's emotions I look at dashboards yeah even me looking at people like holding people's emotions all the time like it it also yeah same thing like it can be very like I can't take all if I take all of that on it would destroy me it'd fuck me fuck me up but um I this comes is this all comes down to a conversation of values that it is simple as that right I personally I value depth over surface level I want to experience the fullness of life and I I value depth over um yeah so what what that looks like is there's gonna be certain people that I spend time with yeah there's gonna be uh and it's you know by the way it's it it's felt like I feel a difference from you personally today I feel like you're way more grounded than usual right because I feel like maybe you've probably allowed yourself to feel the the grief um with with all of this as I shared it it's it it comes back down to values like what you actually value in life in in the world uh and I just I know that at the end of the day what matters most is who's standing around your deathbed like that is literally it like who are the people that are standing around and what did you leave behind like every time for me it comes back to that does it it's not uh it's not what kind of watch did I wear or car did I drive it's like who is genuinely of depth around me like who's my community who might be my wife my children and then the thousands of men that I've impacted and helped like are they there right um so beyond it just being a value it uh I I I think certain key initiations have to happen in someone's life for it to become important enough. That's why I only typically work with men when their partner leaves them because it's like okay now it's a value to do the deep work. A big event.

Darren:

Yeah you know what I mean like an event is what is this in Newton's law like you need something to be pushed into motion for it to make any change. If you saw someone in the street and you said hey I could fix all your relationships and they're like oh I'm black pill they're like I don't care yeah it's the same with me in a business like you can make any you can you could grow a business you want to oh but I I just work a nine to five they need to have a heroic event for them to be kicked into motion. I I think one thing that I wanted to kind of double tap on on the grief side is it is really like so you speak about when you work with them during a a difficult period that's where they come out the other end and they have the uh the antithesis of that so they've experienced hell and then they're they're on the path towards heaven in terms of improvement I think that's the cool part about grief is the fact that you have to experience those extreme lows to experience the extreme highs. Yeah. So through a relationship myself and my wife is like we work on a relationship consistently and we have a great relationship but then we've also had periods of time where it's not being great and we have to double tap on it. So unless you have that ability to go up to an eight or nine out of ten or two to three out of ten, you're living in beige land. You know and that's where it's interesting because grief brings you so much pain and sorrow because you're finally feeling the cost of your investment into a positive thing. I can make an example if I felt such great joy with my dog Sega the cost is this pain which is a good trade off to have for the life that we had the same with a partner and so on. So it's like that's where you can look back on something and be like oh like like yes this fucking sucks obviously but did we not have a great time yeah otherwise beige land or numbland of working yeah there's many days where I could work 16 hours a day and I just I feel nothing. And I don't mean on a bad way I just mean like I don't expect I don't feel bad or good I just do it. And I don't in in periods there's nothing wrong with that but I mean that's not like the true essence of like life you know seasonal.

Ryan:

Yeah we weren't put on a planet to build a business you put on a planet to build like a life a family relationships and leave a legacy through the vessel of a business yeah I feel that that's where the most successful businesses come from when it's coming from that place of like uh I'm I'm it's it's beyond me you know like my message you know the work I do helping men heal developmental trauma childhood trauma that sabotages their relationships and their business and whatever um there's some there's real there's there's a lot of depth to that um I guess that goes insane beyond me and it you know stems from um like my family and what I experienced as a as a child as a boy and uh yeah so there there is there is lots of depth to that and like I said I I value I value depth over over surface level but um yeah man it honestly there's the depth of love and joy that we can experience in partnership or with the people that we love will bring out the deepest of grief because at some point sometime we do have to say goodbye to them and that that very thing is actually why people avoid depth because they avoid the pain that they will have to face the grief that will smack them in the face when they lose that thing. So this is where a man who is deeply anxious or insecure in a relationship or reactive or shuts down or gets really overwhelmed is because there's so much at stake. He loves this woman so much the highs are really high things are fucking amazing. It's the most incredible love he's ever experienced and on the other side of that is the grief of the loss that of I might lose this person.

Darren:

Now the really painful scary part about that is because as a society we're so disconnected from ritualistic grieving and grief being a way of life that anything to do with grief we've actually it's like we we we dance around it we pretend it's not there we avoid it at all costs so would you mean like um in that event let's just say some passes and then you know the family turns like alcohol or they focus on yeah soothing soothing uh mechanics or just moving on yeah well grief is grief is loss of of anything that you're emotionally connected to so it could be a relationship it could be a career it could be a season of life living somewhere in a certain city or whatever there's inherent loss tied to that when the time comes but the fear of grief is that it's it's a scary thing to feel because grief is we're facing death we're it's very existential it's a very existential feeling and the deepest fear around grief is that I'm gonna lose myself in this grief and die.

Ryan:

If I allow this can to open if I allow this bottle to open of grief it's not gonna fucking end and I'm gonna die. That is the deepest fear of grief. So we numb we distract we avoid we keep the lid on that bottle right because there hasn't been safe ritualistic spaces in our culture or in Western society of grieving ritual for that lid to be opened. What would you recommend to do as a grieving ritual like what does that look like for you? Um this is where breath work has come into society and it's really cool you know people sitting in circle and going and doing intentional breath work session it's why I love the breath for me it's it's a portal and it's a gateway to my grief. It opens me up to feeling fully uh when I've noticed that I've been quite numb or disconnected during the week from work or just the amount of men's emotions that I'm holding and supporting I'll intentionally create a two hour space to journey with the breath and allow myself to welcome whatever's seeking to be felt. It's my grieving ritual and process. That's what people are doing when they go sit in circle or they go to a breathwork event or ceremony and they have this big emotional cathartic release it's because they're actually creating the space to grieve the emotions that they've been holding onto for so freaking long but what happens is when we don't have safe ritualistic spaces to actually go do that to grieve and feel but to do it in an intentional way of like I'm going into this to actually uh grieve a certain thing we this is where the the grasping and the and the attachment starts coming in we try and hold onto things really tight because we don't want to allow it to actually die or or slip away. So the the the grief is actually going in and and and feeling that the loss of that thing so sometimes some of the the practices of you know if there's a man that comes to me and he's like deeply anxious and he's just I'm so fearful of losing my partner I'm like okay well we're gonna go into a process and you're actually going to grieve losing your partner. You're gonna fully feel the thing so you've felt it so you've you you now have the capacity to be with that because you've actually gone there if that makes sense.

Darren:

Yeah why do they have fear of their partner losing partner?

Ryan:

I'm I'm confused on that uh aspect like is it because of like an event that they did or the fact that they're not they're like so focused on their business speaking about relationships specifically this deep fear that we experience in relationship um a lot of people have heard it called attachment styles or attachment theory we have anxious attachment where it's like you're deeply clingy anxious needy constantly constantly need reassurance validation then there's avoidant which is you keep love at arm's length you don't let it in because letting it in is a painful experience and you have to be open and vulnerable and that's overwhelming these are the strategies that we develop in childhood to either keep love away, protect ourselves or the strategies we use to gain closeness and connection. So let's say a man who's deeply anxious in a relationship and he's fearful of his partner leaving and he becomes deeply activated and he turns to these strategies of reassurance of constantly checking his phone or her phone or he starts turning to these behaviors of just I can't stop thinking about her. Like I'm I'm obsessing I'm rubinating he he's starting to slip into this survival pattern of like I need this person available for me otherwise I'm going to die. As I shared before our unconscious mind doesn't know the difference between when you're five years old and today so what's happening in that moment is that relationship is triggering the original pain that he still holds where maybe he had a parent that was emotionally unavailable. And to have a parent that's emotionally unavailable is the scariest shit you can ever experience as a child. Because if you're alone and you're not having your dependency needs met then you're gonna like you'll die and that deep wide fear of I will be alone and die is just it hasn't been felt and then a man brings that into his relationship and it leaves him in that state.

Darren:

Kind of thinking about you know when I was younger I was like it was it was a combination of that like a lot of avoidance like was never ever close to my father like ever and then like a lot of betrayal as I got older like just extreme betrayal of like trust and responsibility and ownership and stuff as I was very young.

Ryan:

I was like 12, 13 14 especially when it got like extremely bad and then like how that kind of manifested in my life then was like when I was in my early 20s was just obviously like parodying very detached kind of kind of kind of not but then as I got older it's really more manifested more in terms of just like output you know like extreme extreme output it's it's hard it's you know this is such a multifactorial thing right to try pin down I'm just trying to use like an like an actual like a personal anecdote experience to see how it manifests where question for you and this is like when do you see the work is done when does doing the work mean mean the work is done right because it's mastery is a lifetime right it's a really great question and it's funny because it's we know the work is done or I my personal experience of when I feel that a man has done the work is he has the capacity to grieve as simple as that he has the capacity to feel whatever it is that is seeking to be felt in any given moment. He is the capacity to be in stillness and silence and to truly sit with himself and uh yeah it and to be so deeply present from not from a place of like oh my mind is still and I have no thoughts but you can feel the difference between when someone's quote unquote present and when someone's actually fucking here. Big difference. You can feel uh 90% of communication is unconscious and it's energetic you can deeply feel when someone is here they're you can see it through the gaze of their eyes you can you can feel it through their breath right you can you can feel how they how they breathe you can see their shoulders are relaxed right you can see how they walk uh you know their the the way that they yeah engage with you in conversation like you can really tell when someone's actually present it's not just lacking the thoughts uh and that tells me like your nervous system feels safe in this moment and it feels safe in this moment because you aren't running from anything you can actually just be alive you can be here so how I know someone has done the work is they have the capacity to continue to do the work. Yeah and they don't you know they don't need uh you know they've got certain people and pillars and practices in their life to to continue to lean on but I would say it's it's the capacity to continue to actually lean in and and and grieve and feel and process and uh stay connected to themselves to their their soul their depth that's that's the the biggest indicator for me it's a development which is why it's called personal development it doesn't finish yeah it's not our personal goal to get to an endpoint.

Darren:

Yeah I'm curious your observation looking at like male and female do you feel like a lot of these developmental like attributes or instincts apply also to females bear in mind they may not have the same professional aspirations. I feel like whether it's cause or effect like the masculine the male wants to fucking build empires right is are some of these things not as applicable or do they just have different applications in a female capacity?

Ryan:

The way this is such a multifaceted talking about men and women now uh the way I see it in the business space with women is the masculine shield protection boss babe who is striving and grinding and building this business and you can feel what place it's from yeah 100% you can feel that they don't have a healthy relationship when they're not letting a a man in or there's no way that she's gonna allow herself to right to soften to to uh to a man it's like you know that there's you can feel yeah I can think of countless examples yes you know yeah yeah so I would say that's how it manifests in in say like the business world with with women um let's say look at specific examples like you mentioned being present women are just naturally more present than than men in general so do you feel like it's not as if they need to do as much work in that domain does that make sense I've I've hung out with some some women that holy shit you're like where did your brain just go? Like honestly just yeah it's both men and women okay yeah it's both men and women and uh anyone who feels unsafe in their body struggles to be present no matter if you're a man or a woman and what that looks like is hypervigilance like constantly looking around or needing to speak about all the time. What was that? Looking at your phone. Yeah constantly looking at your phone scrolling needing something to feel better literally like work is can just be a way of just numbing out distracting whatever um even listening to podcasts too.

Darren:

Yeah procrastination yeah because you're running from something and you're filling the void with something it's like positive procrastination it makes you feel like you're you're making progress but you're not and often the more that you procrastinate is actually the less progress that you make anyway.

Ryan:

I one thing that comes up for me in this conversation if there's someone that's thinking well there's so much here there's so much potential things uh what if I'm this what if I'm that what if I don't have any of this if you're questioning yourself you need someone in your corner. Yeah right if if you don't know you need and it's not from a place of like too like just for the healing but you're leaving so much on the table relationships, experiences, money, impact, all of it like you're leaving so much on the table by not being the fullness of who you are because you're operating and you're stuck in this state of survival. Like me personally I don't fucking trust anyone like I I can't Feel like I can trust someone who's not present or or doesn't have the capacity to actually be present. There's this feeling of like I just I don't feel a depth from you, and I don't feel like I could actually trust you to either do business with you or maybe uh hire you for a certain reason, or uh yeah. And if I was disconnected from myself, like my clients feel it. Yeah. Some days they're like, hey bro, you are you like you good? Are you okay? And I'm like, if if someone has to ask me that, I'm like, holy fuck, okay, what's going on? If someone has to ask me that, and that's that's a big red flag for me.

Darren:

I think what's interesting to open top on too is how when you do the work or you're in the process in the work, it doesn't mean that every day is gonna be fantastic or you're always gonna be going up and up and up. Like as you alluded to, you know, from working together on many things, is like some days are not great, some days are good, some days are awesome. Okay, what's there what are we gonna do as a response to that? And the response may not be more work, right? The response could be more inner work, yeah, which is ironic here. But I think that's a good point to understand too for people that are like, okay, fuck, I know I need to do things, but it feels hard. It's like a business. You need someone in your corner for your business. It's still gonna be hard, but it's harder, it's harder on your own.

Ryan:

Yeah. Comes back to capacity, the the whole capacity thing. Um if you're someone who's striving to you're an entrepreneur, you're striving to create some level of success, what's going to help you integrate, as we shared at the beginning of this podcast, if you actually want to achieve a level of success and actually integrate and embody what it is that you just achieved, so that now becomes your new baseline, not just mentally, but emotionally, energetically, capacity-wise, that now becomes your baseline. You have to prioritize your nervous system. Like your nervous system has to be at the forefront of your mind and priority. So those days where it's like, I uh I'm I'm cooked right now and I know like I just gotta keep pushing through or whatever. Okay, cool, do what you need to do. But also, what are you doing to actually fill your cup and prioritize your nervous system? So those days when I feel like that, I'm like, yeah, cool, awesome. We're gonna do the thing, right? But after we do the thing, we're gonna go get a massage, we're gonna go sauna, we're gonna go sit in stillness. If I know, if I wake up, right, and I and I'm like, I feel like my heart is contracted right now. Like I'm like, I feel like I'm holding back some shit. But I got to show up. Like that's leadership. You got you got to show up even when you don't feel like it. But the number one thing is what are you doing when you finish working? Are you gonna keep working, numb, distract, just have more coffee, or are you gonna actually slow, allow yourself to come back down, slow down and and be in stillness and actually feel whatever it is that's causing the contraction. Because that contraction, I can guarantee you, your business will feel it. It happens every time for me. My entire team feels it when I feel it.

Darren:

What I've no noticed in myself is that sometimes that doesn't need to be four days, it could be an evening. Yeah. You know, preferably like even after this, I'll head to the gym, we'll do some other sit in the sauna. The reason why I like the sauna is because I don't have my phone in the sauna. I don't have the ability to distract. And there's obviously layers to this, but I mean, I guess what's your like step-by-step process for this? If someone is the nervous system is super unregulated right now, like let's just go like step by step. What are like the five concrete steps you'd recommend for someone to come back down the baseline and then integrate continuously to be able to show up better in their life?

Ryan:

It first begins with the simple like if you're unaware of how you're feeling, like, how can you tend to what you need? If you don't know what you need, how can you tend to it? Right? So that's the first step is actually being able to slow down enough to check in with yourself and ask yourself, what do I need in this moment? What is my nervous system asking of me for this moment? Sometimes the other day for me, uh, I'm the same. I like to go sauna, I like to go do rounds on the sauna and um just really slow down. But a sauna is not what I needed because that's actually uh was too stressful for my body. My body's like, okay, like, yes, sauna is our way of stillness, right? But but right now that's actually too stressful for the body because it's actually gonna have the reverse effect, you're gonna crash more after that. Uh so what I was seeking was stillness. But my only way I was normally was just through the sauna. So what I did was I uh locked everything in the cupboard, or I went into another room and I literally just laid instead at the ceiling. Just breathed. And I guarantee you, you create enough space and stillness, you will receive the answers that you've been looking for. And sometimes the answers are like, wow, like you've you've foot your foot has been on the pedal. Where have you been? What from what place have you actually been doing this from? Like what's you know, it'll come up our body will tell us. And that can be the hardest shit for most people is to literally just lay there, stereo ceiling, and actually just feel what's seeking to be felt. Typically, it's not as bad as what we think it is. Sometimes we can feel, and it'll be like, oh, five minutes, I feel much, much better, and I feel like the energy is more freed up, and I can now go do the thing. So and sometimes it's a whole thing, it's a whole afternoon, evening, and I it's a whole process.

Darren:

So, a question specifically on duration, so quality of time versus duration of time. So, Sahel Bloom, you know, I've grown um you know, he's a person in my network. I wouldn't say he's my friend, but we've had a lot of interactions, and something that really stands out for me with him when his his book, The Five Pillars of Wealth, is quality of time with the partner. So he said, like, you know, he could spend 15 minutes with his wife in the morning, and it's much better than spending three hours watching Netflix. So, like, concentrated time. So, let's just take that as an example for the inner work. Like, do you think that there's an element of like busy guy five minutes in the sauna is can be as effective as fucking hours of doing XYZ?

Ryan:

Like, how do you think about quality versus quantity? Yeah, it's a good point. Even like yes, for someone who has got lots going on and stillness is is a challenging thing for them. Uh first thing I actually suggest is well, do you like sauntering? Cool, go to that. Yeah, like that's the first thing. Um and you have to breed in the sauna, so you're intuitively breeding, I guess. You know, yeah. Uh here in Bali, it's a bit different because you're on a sauna and you make like 50 friends and you're just now just talking, and now you're talking about business in the sauna. I had to move gym because of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um but it's still like you're going and doing the thing. You're going and doing the can can you actually just create like a very comfortable, safe space in your home and lay yourself to just lay and feel, right? So where wherever I live, I'll always have like maybe a space on the floor, uh, or a certain room in the villa that I'm in. Uh or at home, I'll have a like a my own separate room. And that's the space that I actually it's like my meditation space. It's my space for feeling, it's my space to to just go and lay and literally just feel and moat, be in my my process. Um the thing is is is silence is and stillness is just the beginning. What comes up, and it's just like a breathwork journey, right? People go and do breath work and they're like, wow, I had an amazing experience, whatever. But it's just the stillness that brings what's real to the surface. The integration of what you actually do with what comes up is most important. For example, you might be in stillness, and it might drop in for you that holy shit, I can't keep living the way that I've been living because my relationship is being heavily affected by the way that I've been living. Awesome. Okay, feel whatever you need to feel around that. Now, what are you actually gonna do to integrate that? Right? And that's the same with with breath work journey. Yeah, it yeah, it's it comes down to embodiment, like actually doing the thing, and that's what matters most is what happens, what you do with the insight that you receive in the stillness. Do you give a fuck about what came up to actually live in integrity with that?

Darren:

To use an analogy, it happens frequently. Like someone would ask me what to do with their content with their business, and I would tell them and they say, Yeah, but I'm gonna do this instead. It's like if there is a plan, if there is support, follow the fucking plan. Like, like for other people, you've gone through this, you've documented it. Why would you not just listen to your advice and then actually integrate it and implement it? Otherwise, you're just kind of in awareness and you're just learning shit. Like that's the whole that's the whole issue with education, just learning things, yeah. And I guess like you can implement the wrong things, you can do the wrong actions, which is why you need that level of input to be able to have the right level of output and outcome, output to get the right outcome. I think it's just it's very interesting because the more I think about this over the weekend, it's like it's all the same, dude. Like in terms of you have to have the right information to implement it that's the right cause and effect. But where do people where do most people lie? They lie in the in the education, yeah.

Ryan:

And I'll tell you a story on this. I when it came to like the inner work, I was in the inner work or personal development work for many, many years. I would say leading up to this point, maybe six or maybe seven years, I was in the work. And it was really it was nice to say that I was a quote unquote conscious man. Yeah, it was nice to say that you know I do the work and whatever. I wasn't really doing the work. I was aware of it, and I was very aware of my wounds. I was very intellectualizing a lot of my wounds, my triggers, and whatever. And I was more um, it was more, I was more attracted to consuming the information from podcasts, from books, doing the courses, the programs, learning all the practices, the protocols, and whatever. I was more focused on that than actually embodying the the the thing, doing the thing until the woman I loved more than anything literally walked out on me one day and my my nervous system, my body shut down. And I was on the floor convulsing, I was vomiting for about four hours. My whole body was in a tremor, which is a trauma response. So it was like shaking like uncontrollably. Um yeah, basically, what I was faced with was all of this childhood wounding that I'd become aware of and done, you know, mindset work around and lots of awareness stuff, and had some conversations, and uh, I thought I forgave my parents and whatever. I was actually faced with the lived experience of no, you haven't felt this. You know about it, you haven't actually felt it. And this is where the embodiment came in of like, oh, okay, there's there's this whole embodiment piece of you know, you can know all about it, but until you actually live and breathe it, you've you've it's an experience, it's a felt sense in your nervous system. It means fuck all.

Darren:

What else is there in embodiment that you've left out? An embodiment that I've left out. Yeah, what's what does it actually feel like? What does it actually what's the actual experience of that? Because just because you start embodying something doesn't mean you're doesn't mean you're gonna feel better immediately because you're gonna come up with more things. So how do you go through that like step-by-step process? Gotcha. Because I feel like that when people stare at they're like, oh fuck, to put your hand in the fire and like, oh yeah, I'm not gonna do that again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going back from uh growth zone back to comfort zone. I don't want to go into danger zone. Fuck that. Yeah, danger zone is when that event happened. But how do you how do you kind of fetter between that growth zone and comfort zone through embodiment such that you actually make fucking progress?

Ryan:

Touching on what you shared before, which ties into this around um, you know, you could tell someone something, it's kind of like they're not ready to hear it yet. They have to like experience it themselves to be like, I had this idea. Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. That happens all the time. I literally told you that seven months ago, yeah. Um, this is a this is a pivotal part in the hero's journey. Uh Joseph Campbell uh came up with the hero's journey, which was based on uh mythology, which has been you know, stories that have been told for thousands of years. So it's literally how they used to communicate and share like personal development and uh they they they would communicate through telling stories, right? And in stories, every single story is literally the hero's journey, every mythol uh mythological journey is a hero's journey, right? Um he's got a book called uh A Thousand Faces or something like that, and basically it's like literally a book about what I just said. Um, but basically, the hero's journey is that at some point there is a calling to adventure. At some point you'll be faced with this calling of whenever you're ready, whenever you're ready to receive the calling, it'll be there, right? So for me, there were many, many, many I there were hundreds of invitations for me to enter the cave of my pain in that relationship, but I didn't listen to them because I wasn't ready yet. Same with someone in business. You can tell them all these things, but until they're ready, like they're not gonna listen. And what happens is there's a calling. And for me, the calling was getting freaking hit by a truck of emotion and my body shutting down, my nervous system shutting down. Um, that was enough of a calling for me to go, okay, I'm listening. Now, what happened there was, and and actually the next stage of the hero's journey is the I'm there's many stages, but basically I'm breaking down a very, very simple format. There's what's called the threshold. Now, the threshold is the unknown world. It's for example, in business, it's like, okay, like I'm ready. I'm gonna work with this coach or mentor, and I'm scared because I've no fucking idea what's gonna happen. Right? The unknown. What could happen? Where could this go? Sort of thing. So, same with the deep inner work. I was like, fuck, there's a big calling here for me, a big initiation. This is so scary and it is so unknown. I don't know what's gonna happen. I could lose myself in this. Now, the most pivotal part about actually crossing the threshold, right? Is it there's a decision. People will either keep doing what they've always done until it's painful enough and they have no other option but to descend down across the threshold, or they decide I'm gonna cross the threshold. And what happens is when they cross the threshold, they've actually introduced to a mentor. And that mentor supports them as they descend down into the cave of their deepest pain and suffering. In business, it's probably a lot of people's businesses probably get a lot worse before they get better because they've actually got to maybe undo some shit, 100%, undo a lot of the old shit that they had implemented, and they got to right face themselves quite a bit, and then they hit a rock bottom, and they're like, fuck this, why am I doing this? Whatever. Now, in the hero's journey, in the pit in the rock bottom is the death. It's the death of the old self, the old identity, the one that's keeping you stuck and limited in this emotional capacity. This this identity, this glass ceiling, this limited ceiling, this thermostat. In the cave, in that death is a rebirth. But you have to fucking die. There has to be a sacrifice. You can't be reborn if you don't fucking die. You can't step into this new identity, this new level if you don't actually fucking die. And what are we talking about here? It's grief. The hero's journey is the grieving journey. And in the cave, in the pit, is where we receive the gold, the new weapon, the new skill, the new identity, the new embodiment. And then we make our journey back up into the ordinary world where we've completed the full cycle of the journey. There's many more steps involved, by the way. But um what I'm speaking about here is is grief. And these are the cycles of grief that we go through. So I'm now going through my next initiation, right, in business. I have my mentors, I have support, I have the people around me, and there's parts of me I feel like are fucking dying. And I'm questioning myself, why am I doing this? Whatever. But I know that I'm right now I'm in the pit. And it's exciting because I understand grief. I understand the hero's journey, and it's something I choose to lean into now because I live in a relationship with it.

Darren:

Yeah. And it's almost like you need to let go of all the stuff that are preventing you from getting to the next level. Like whether that's a bad relationship, whether that's a bad business, whether that's a bad product. Like there needs to be like constant, it's the fleshing of the skin, right? It's the it's it's a hermocrab.

Ryan:

Yep. There's no there's no initiation without sacrifice. There's you have to have there has to be blood that is shed. And here's like the thing is with an initiation is you don't actually fucking want an initiation, like a real one, you don't want it because of what you have to sacrifice what will be sacrificed, there has to be blood, there has to be pain, right? It's part of the hero's journey, it's part of the grieving. Like something has to die.

Darren:

Before we wrap up, for someone who's struggling to take that first action to make that change, to start a personal development journey, to solve their problems and to start the inner work, what advice would you have for them?

Ryan:

Oh, this could be the calling if you choose it to be. Right. And then the next step is the decision to step across the threshold and then therefore a mentor support. Like I I'll always have the right men behind me as mentors to support me through my continuous life cycle of initiations of what I'm now stepping into. Right. I'll always have people in my corner to support me in that. And if a lot of if there were like tiny little things that, you know, triggered something within you today, it's like allow that to be the calling before it becomes like it's like the feather brick in the truck analogy. Like it doesn't have to get to that point. But it it's the truth is like we don't listen until we're ready.

Darren:

The universal whisper are you before a show to.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Darren:

Man, thank you so much. It was so good. From our first podcast or a second as well. It was just really, really great. It's been awesome getting to know you deeper as well. And just been honestly, just seeing, man, like where you've kind of adjusted personally and then how that showed up professionally. Um, it's almost like a one-to-one match, right? It's like if you didn't do all this work personally, it wouldn't have reflected in your business. And that's the biggest thing here. It's like if you selfishly want to grow a business, do the internal work. If that's the only thing that you want to do, you still have to come back and do this. And then obviously you're gonna have the serendipity of the rest of life that's going to come with you.

Ryan:

Man, I as I always say, like the second to a relationship, like the most spiritual personal growth journey you will ever embark on is entrepreneurship. 100%. Thank you, butter.