Kickoff Sessions

#337 Cameron England - The 20 Year Old Making $700k/month With His AI Agency

• Darren Lee • Episode 337

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At 20, Cameron England built his agency entirely on paid ads. No organic, no posting. $50–100 a day in, clients at around $400, $1,000 up front and $1,000 every month after that.

"I don't want to be right, I just want to make money."

He started posting at 15 documenting a business he hadn't built yet, spent four years in the trenches running a marketing agency for medical clinics, and now runs a second business teaching agency owners the same path.

This one is about the mechanics. Why he dropped cold outbound the moment he learned paid. Why organic is what Darren calls "business on easy mode" — and why Cameron thinks depending on either paid or organic alone is a mistake. What actually broke when he poured money into ads: fulfilment, hiring, all of it.

If you're running an agency or a coaching business and you're stuck deciding instead of doing, this one's for you.


0:00 Why your pain tolerance sets your income ceiling
1:12 The popcorn effect — 5 years of nothing, then everything
4:04 Student vs expert: which one actually gets paid
7:19 Selling vapes at 14, shaving his head at 15
9:50 Join Aura
11:26 How he cracked paid ads and killed cold outbound
16:24 Why 90% of beginners stay stuck at $10K a month
22:18 Reputation over growth spurts
23:58 The offer he refused to scale
26:34 The cost of condensing 10 years into 3
35:41 Turning down $120K a year at 16 on a gut feeling
42:51 When Instagram shut him down
46:42 Leading by example


CAMERON ENGLAND
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Cameron.England
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamcameronengland/

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Pain Tolerance And Business Reality

Cameron England

The level of pain tolerance you have is in direct correlation to how much money you make, the bigger the company you have, because essentially the more money you make, the more responsibility you have, the bigger the problem you solve.

Darren Lee

You can either stay small, 200k, 300k a month on organic, or you can go through a year of brutal pain whereby you spend a bunch of money, your sales team probably churn, because a lot of them are cashiers, not closers, and you have to go through this massive, massive pain. But at the end of it.

Cameron England

If you want to run a lifestyle business that does a couple hundred grand a month, really high margin, and like on paper and easy business, organic all the way. But obviously, to build that organic foundation, it's like planting a seed in the ground and eventually it'll pay you dividends. It's rare that people immediately start posting and have a 200 grand a month business.

Darren Lee

At the end of the day, the organic guys hit the paid guys, the paid guys hit the organic guys, agency guys hit the info guys. But if you strip it all away, which I think is what you've done very well, is you're like, let me just do the things that make money.

Cameron England

That's all I care about. I don't want to be right, I just want to make money every single time. And for me, I'm like, I think paid and organic are mandatory for every business. I don't think you should depend on any. Because the problem is if you just depend on organic, yeah, you get the pros of higher margin, easier clients, less chargebacks, a short sales cycle. Again, you can have mediocre closes and close at 50%. But the con of that is you've got the volatility of volcanic and not knowing.

Organic Foundations And The Popcorn Effect

Darren Lee

So when we first met yesterday, I said, I said to you, I was like, man, you've really like your brand has just popped out of nowhere. And then you said to me, You're like, Yeah, man, I started creating content when I was 15, five years ago. What can you attest to starting all those years ago and then all of a sudden overnight you're well known?

Cameron England

The way I always saw it is it's like popcorn in a bag where you put it in the microwave and it's gonna go for a little bit, and then all of a sudden it's just gonna pop. And I knew that was true when I was posting content. For me, when I first started, it wasn't even like, oh, you know, maybe later down the line this will pay me dividends. But my philosophy on it was, I'm not good at anything yet. Let me just document it. And instead of taking the frame of, oh, here's what you should do, here's what I'm doing, here's what's working for me. Because I always wished these big names, you know, like Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, they had like a documentary of their whole life from like 15. And I was like, let me just see how that pans out for me. And then all of a sudden, recently a few videos start hitting, people start seeing it, and then everybody thinks it's an overnight success, you know.

Darren Lee

What do you think has changed from people not recognizing you to having like quite a magnetic brand now?

Cameron England

I think the biggest thing is just the social proof, to be honest. It's like climbing up a hill, and then it gets easier and easier when you come on the other side of it. For example, when I was 15, 16, 17, people see this kid who looks extremely young, who's working his ass off, but nobody actually knows if you're gonna be successful until you actually do it. And then you get invited to speak at one event, and then people see, oh shit, this person actually knows what they're talking about. And then you get invited to the second one or the third one and the fourth one. And that's what was true for me specifically this year. I was like, I want to put a really big focus on. Now I've like had the four years in the trenches, now I want to put a big focus on personal brand because the amount of benefits you get from personal brand is is ridiculous. It's not even just the financial. I think for me, the biggest thing is the network and the opportunities that have come for it over anything else.

Darren Lee

But we wouldn't have met if it wasn't for yesterday.

Cameron England

Exactly. And it's like indirect status as well. I know Temple was talking about this yesterday in his talk, but it's like the indirect status tip-offs.

Darren Lee

Do you think that the brand has benefited your agency or mainly on the consulting side?

Cameron England

100% on the consulting side. When I first started building my brand, as per se, I was like, okay, I'm gonna host short form and long form to med spas. But the problem was I never lived that life. I never enjoyed it, and it like drained my energy. It felt like a chore. And then I changed the content to being, you know what, I have no idea what I'm gonna sell or what this even looks like. Let me just share my honest thoughts. And if you go back to my YouTube like three, four years ago, it was literally just me walking in a forest, just like talking about my thoughts. And it was funny that the videos almost felt effortless, where I was like flowing with life to a degree, and I enjoyed it. They're

Student Versus Expert Content

Cameron England

the ones that always perform the best out of anything, even now that I post.

Darren Lee

Have you heard the difference between a student and an expert? The concept of content?

unknown

No.

Darren Lee

So if you look at like Chris Williamson, uh everyone like fell in love with Chris Williamson because obviously he's like a Jack Chad, but he is the student, he's like inquisitive. So people like love people who are on a journey of like learning and exploration, and then he's sharing those lessons. Whereas you look at like an Andrew Huberman, he has to, from a medical perspective, be like, this is the fucking report, bro, and this is what it specifically says. So the second you go from student to guru in our industry is when you get way more of the backlash, but also the attention for like let's say info consulting, okay? So for me, like I had a podcast for I've had a podcast for six years. For fucking 80% of that time, I was just a student. I was interviewing like people like Iman just been a gala, tell me this, tell me that. And I think you get away with that as a kid. But the thing is, you're 20. So you could in theory have done that for five more years, you know, and if in theory.

Cameron England

Yeah, that's so funny. I feel like I I was so resistant, funny enough, to going from posting content and being like a student to transitioning to an expert. Because you could argue, of course, you need to make that transition to being like an expert online if you want people to buy from you. Because nobody buys from the person that's like figuring it out, you'll buy from the person that knows what to do, so they can just condense the time frame to get to the outcome they want. For me, I feel like I'm still in the middle though. So, what I mean by that is I'll post videos where I'm like, here's what I'm really good at, here's what you should do, but based on what I learned, at the same time, 50% of my content is still me just documenting here's what I'm learning, here's what I'm taking away. Like I recently did a video with Jeremy Haynes, like a podcast like this, and it was literally just me asking him questions selfishly about like how I could improve as an individual. And weirdly enough, that video got me a ton of clients. Because people like I associate you as being trustworthy just by being with that person, and I also respect the fact that you're not trying to be this perfect persona online and pretending that you've got everything figured out because in that video I was extremely vulnerable with we've got this problem, that problem, this problem. How do how would you solve it? And people can see in real time me like solving the problems and figuring it out.

Darren Lee

Have you ever seen the video of me and Jeremy Hints? I haven't. He rips my ass open for about an hour and a half. Sounds about right. And my like main editor was like, bro, like we can't put this on the internet. Like he was like, we can't put this on the internet, because he didn't he didn't know who Jeremy was. And I was like, just fucking post it. And to this day, I'll get comments on my videos being like, oh, like it looks like all Jeremy's feedback really paid off. So he basically was called me a bitch for not spending money on ads. It was like this time last year. He always, you know, and it's like should we do 30k a day? But they try to get into 100k a day, and that's again, it's a student mentality, yeah. Right. I like again, right? The big pre-frame here is the fact that you're 20. And I didn't even I didn't even know that, bro. Like, sorry for my own.

Cameron England

I've been growing the facial hair out, so I'm trying to put the persona higher so I can get higher level clients.

Darren Lee

How do you think uh you scale so hard? Like, like like the numbers are like really wild. Like, where do you think that that truly comes from, right? Because yeah, just I want to get like a full deep kind of observation on how you actually did it. Yeah.

Grit Origins And Aggressive Execution

Cameron England

I think there's like the woo-woo psychological side, and then there's the practical side. On the woo-woo psychological side, I would say grew up in a single mother household, you know, the whole sob story, all that stuff. And for me, like my back was against the wall to the point where I would do, and I still do now, I'll do whatever it takes to get what I want. I've always been growing up like a very stubborn kid, and I felt like I kind of had to be. Because like single mother household, I felt like I had to be like the man in the house. And we had quite an unstable upbringing where we go from like a four-bedroom house to a two-bedroom to living with my grandparents. And for me, I just had this like innate desire from so young. When I was like 14, I'm like, I want to control my circumstance. Like it made me angry, and that's why even when I was like 14, 15, I was like selling vapes in school. I was I was doing a bunch of shady shit to try and make money. And I had like 50% margin, I was running it like a business. I have like a spreadsheet of the profit margins from my vape business in the school toilets. So I think initially there was a lot of pain where I was like, I'm gonna do whatever it takes to make this happen or I'm gonna die trying. And I think like burning the boats in that way makes it almost impossible not to get what you want. And then on the practical side, I really did just go all in. Like I shaved my head, not even for the reason that I wanted to. I shaved my head because it made me look like I was 11 when I was 15, and I knew that I wouldn't go out the house. So I like exited my friend group because I looked 11, and I would literally just sit in my room all day and obsess over learning, reading. How can I get more clients? What can I do that other people aren't willing to do? Like my first five or 10 clients, I didn't get paid a single dollar initially. I was like, I'll work for you for free. I think the first one or two I covered the ad spent because I started with like a marketing agency in the medical market. And I've always just had that philosophy throughout my entire business of I need to be extremely aggressive with what I want. If I know what I need to do, the speed at which I know what I need to do and I execute on it determines how fast I move. And I've always done as best as I possibly could to condense that time frame. I know I do, I know I do, and I just go through that loop. But at the same time, also having the self-awareness to know when to zoom out and be like, oh, that didn't work. There's a pattern here that continuously keeps happening that maybe isn't good, is good, what can I learn from that? Like I still do it now, I've done it for four years, where every Sunday I'll take a few hours and just sit there, pen, paper, go in nature, and I'll just ask myself questions and I'll like brain dump all my thoughts, what's going

Aura Sales Platform Break

Cameron England

on that week.

Darren Lee

Real quick before we get back into it, if you run an education business, agency, or coaching business, and your business lives or dies on sales calls, you need to hear this, and this is the exact reason why I built Aura. Here's the deal right now, your entire sales process is duct taped together. You're using Calonly, iClosed, maybe cal.com, and a bit of a mixture of type form, a clunky CRM, and everything's out of date. None of it actually talks together, and as a result, your leads fall between the cracks, you get massive no-shows, and any type of close rate is in the absolute toilet. Aura replaces it all. Aura is the one sales intelligence platform that books your sales calls, scores your leads, optimizes your show rate, and actually improves your close rate with AI coaching. Our AI system runs your entire workflow. Your CRM is continuously up to date. No more are things behind and falling out of sync. We completely remove the need for Zap year. And here's the best part. If you already have a sales process, we integrate directly into your current tech stack. If you're using GoHi level, HubSpot, or close, or you want to connect everything with Slack, we have a direct integration with all of them. No crazy migrations, removing 10,000 Zap years, and no headaches. We've even helped eight-figure companies like Abundant Minds to optimize their show rate and increase their close rate. The same leads, increasing their calls, reducing their ad spend in one simple platform. So if you're done paying for five different tools that don't just get the job done, the links in the description. Go check out Aura. Now back to the podcast.

Cracking Agency Growth With Paid Ads

Darren Lee

What do you think was like the main secret of the agency to grow? Because like it's agencies, like people find them very hard to scale. And like to this day, uh actually, I was thinking about this this morning, actually, just for this conversation. In our business, our agency right now is making the most money more than the info. Why? It's just a commission. It's uh it's Revshare. Yeah. So I would love to get your thoughts on like where the big numbers that come from. If you break it down, like like how did you crack it?

unknown

Yeah.

Cameron England

So with the agency for us, I think timing was a very important thing. Like SMMA at the time was kind of like blowing up again. There was a lot of people talking about not just like run Facebook ads, but hey, go super niche, have a guarantee, and call their leads. So the complexity of the fulfillment got extended, and this was sold as like a new model. Yeah. Where historically it was like generate the leads for them.

Darren Lee

Yeah.

Cameron England

And now it's like, hey, generate the leads and call them, nurture them, help them with sales, so on and so forth.

Darren Lee

Normal like companies are retarded and they're all they're all retarded, exactly. They burn their leads. Yeah. That's how we started a sales agency.

Cameron England

Yeah.

Darren Lee

It was because everyone complained that we that they weren't getting results. And then I just I emailed all the leads, being like, hey, you want to buy the thing? And that's how we started a sales agency. That was six, five years ago.

Cameron England

Yeah. And for me, so my first 10 clients came from just pure grit of cold outbound, cold calling in the UK. And where I blew up is I transitioned to the US market and I figured out how to run ads. I'm so grateful for that because I've been in like every single mastermind you can imagine. I've spent well over a million dollars in the last like four years on everything. And one program I joined was from Joel Kaplan. He was running Agency Lab, it's no longer a thing at the time. And he introduced me to this like, hey, screw outbound, just run ads. I'm like, ads, I've got to spend money to get clients. And this was completely foreign to me. But when I figured out how to spend like $50, $100 a day and get a client for like $400 that will pay me a thousand dollars up front and then a thousand dollars every month, I thought it felt like I had the key to infinite scale. And it was just like pour more money in ads, break fulfillment, hire more people, and repeat the process. And obviously, it wasn't as linear as it sounds. There was a lot of things that happened along the way, but in simple terms, that's really what it was. That that business is all paid, so a single thing organic.

Darren Lee

I'll never forget this. When we we did organic for four years, right? Four years, and when we made when we tried to make the transition to paid, someone in quantum, so educate's main offer, said to me, They're like, You got a choice, bro. You can either stay small, 200k, 300k a month on organic, or you can go through a a year of brutal pain, yeah, whereby you spend a bunch of money, your sales team probably churn, because a lot of them are cashiers, not closers, and you have to go through this massive, massive pain. But at the end of it, you'll either be successful or not successful, and then that's it. And it's because the decision you gotta make. And I remember being like, fuck, let's just commit to it. And it didn't even cost that much to commit to it, but it's just like you it's it's I call it um if you're running a business on organic, it's business on easy mode, right? It's like literally business on easy mode. But the guys that are running, you know, cold traffic, cold email, 5-15% close rate, like they're the fucking warriors.

Cameron England

So true. So it's like if you want to run a lifestyle business that does a couple hundred grand a month, really high margin, and like on paper and easy business, organic all the way. But obviously, to build that organic foundation, it's like planting a seed in the ground and eventually it'll pay you dividends. It's rare that people immediately start posting and have a 200 grand a month business.

Darren Lee

Yeah, I don't want to name names, but I saw a clip from someone who like does the personal brand for like all the famous, famous people today. And he was like, Oh man, you know, like you shouldn't ask your audience for anything. And I was like, not really, bro. Like, if you're an organic, like you have to ask your audience because you have to get paid, you're not you're not a content creator, you know. So that's why I'm very pro ads in that regard, which was like it was the biggest thing that helped us. Uh, because it was like um, no what it is, man. At the end of the day, the organic guys hate the paid guys, the paid guys hate the organic guys, you know, the agency guys hate the info guys. It's like, yeah, but if you strip it all away, which I think is what you've done very well, is you're like, let me just do the things that make money.

Cameron England

That's all I care about. I don't want to be right, I just want to make money every single time. And there's many things that I do and I reflect on it. I'm like, that was an extremely stupid decision. I don't care. I don't want to be right, I just want to make money. And for me, I'm like, I think paid and organic are mandatory for every business. I don't think you should depend on any. Because the problem is if you just depend on organic, yeah, you get the pros of higher margin, easier clients, less chargebacks, a short sales cycle. Again, you can have mediocre closes and close at 50% because they are just cashiers. But the con of that is you've got the volatility of organic and not knowing what you're gonna make every single month. Unless you have a really good back end, you can predict it with a higher degree of accuracy. And then you've got paid, which, as you said, takes a lot longer to crack, especially if you've got like a do-it-yourself done with you offer. Done for you, usually easier to crack on paid, but funny enough, harder to crack on organic from what we've seen. And then the complete opposite applies on organic.

Speed Over Overthinking For Beginners

Darren Lee

What I often found is done for you clients have to put the trust in you, and when you fuck up, they blame you. Done with you clients have to put the trust in them, which is why they don't take action. Yep. They don't want to take action, you know. Uh, one thing that I really learned that I have a lot of value from your your talk yesterday was about the smaller people have to almost turn off their brain and just fucking do more work. And I think from even working with a lot of smaller entrepreneurs myself, people mentally masturbate around their offer so many times to the point that they don't do anything. Yep. So the biggest thing that we introduced was like, hey, like run your offer ASAP, like within the first like two days. How have you seen that? Because like you're the literally poster boy of do more shit. Yep. So in your regards, like working with a bunch of people, where where do you see that as like, okay, hey, stop fucking talking about it and just do shit?

Cameron England

I'd say 90% of the time when people ask me questions, that's almost always the answer. So we have two different buckets of clients. We have beginners who are trying to get them to like 10 grand a month, and then we have people that are like 10, 20, 50, 100 grand a month that want to make like 300 to 500 grand a month, something along those lines. The people zero to 10, that is the answer every time. The biggest pitfalls we see because whenever we offboard a client, we have exit calls who make sure that we gather information on why they failed, why they're leaving. And almost every single time it's them in their own way. Zero to 10 is them in their own way. And it's just they take too long to make the small decisions that actually don't matter. It doesn't take more than a day for you to decide what your niche is, what your company name is, what your logo is, what your offer is. You can get all of that done in a few hours. Because at the end of the day, people think, oh, I need to have all this in order before. But it's the complete opposite. It's like you make the decision, you take the action, and then through course correction, you gather more data. And then with that data, you course correct. And that's what I've always done. I'll just launch an offer, throw it out, spend money on ads, do outbound, whatever it may be. And then I'll listen to what the market tells me. I'll take that data, find the patterns, and go, what do we need to tweak or change? And it's the same with all of our beginner clients. We find the exact same thing. That's why what we found worked best for our beginner clients is we have like a full checklist of everything they need to do. And now we just have a one-on-one account manager that meets with them weekly. Have you done this? Have you done that? Have you done this? A lot of those guys don't need anything else except accountability. It's like, here's the roadmap, do this, and then you do this, and then you do this, as if you're explaining it to a five-year-old. And then we just have someone constantly on the arse making sure they're actually doing it.

Darren Lee

Double tap on that for me because client delivery is the thing where people don't do an info, right? Why did you make the decision to baby basically put in babysitters?

Cameron England

For me, I care a lot about my reputation over anything. Because I know a lot of people in the space that will have these big spurts of gross.

Darren Lee

Yeah.

Cameron England

But you know, when you look at it on a macro perspective, you know that eventually it's gonna go the fuck down because their reputation is bad. All it takes for from my point of view is one or two people that are respected in the space to see that you don't care about your clients or you're doing wrong by them, and the word spreads. And then eventually through time, that compounds and your business will eventually go down. I don't want that. Like I'm in this for the long term. So for me, for example, although I do make a big push for me and for my clients on you have to move with speed, you have to focus on acquisition. I also think the exact same applies with client results. You need to have the same degree of aggression. So, like that checklist and that accountability, we didn't have that initially because I didn't think that would be a problem. In fact, in our beginner offer that we have for like people starting an agency, the first like set of modules was just here's how to start an agency, here's how to fulfill, here's how to acquire. And then we see like a certain bucket of people coming in that just failed. And then we gathered data on it, and it's well, it's just them in their own way. They have the wrong beliefs, they don't believe that they can do it, they have a bunch of stories they tell themselves, and then we had to had to add all this mindset stuff, and we had to add one-on-one accountability. I just found that through data because like I'm fairly new to the info space. I've only really been selling an info product for like a year and two months now. But through that period of time, I feel like I've learned so much. And again, like every client is completely different to the other. For me, I didn't have that problem. Like I always wanted it.

Darren Lee

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cameron England

And I didn't really need someone to give me a kick in the ass because I was self-motivated, but I quickly realized other people aren't.

Darren Lee

If we're done for you, you take that responsibility from the client. The client could literally not put up his pants in the morning, but it doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't really matter because you're in the weeds running the ads, running the sales team, or whatever. Exactly. I think it's interesting, man, because like for us, uh like we've had our like consulting specifically for four years. So every year we have to refresh it. Yeah. So I mean, like, like, dude, Jesus Christ, if you saw the one we had, like AI is changing the game so much that it's like almost embarrassing how quickly things go out of fashion. It's crazy. Like, I'd be looking at something from like uh November, yeah, and I'll be like, I can't believe I said that. But then it's like I can't believe I had that opinion because like everything's so different. That's what that's on the tactical stuff, but then on the human stuff, it's like people follow the same personality traits over and over again. So it's like there's actually actually one of my uh like mentors, you know, Sean Hannif, uh, GenFlow.

Cameron England

Yeah, he spoke at my event uh in Dubai actually a few months ago, like 12 months ago. He's all G.

Darren Lee

Yeah. Uh I was coached by Sean. Sick. And uh the first thing he did was he gave me an X and Y axis of client profiles high ego, insecurity. So like insecure, uh secure, high ego, low ego, and it's like, where are your clients? And then depending on where they are on that access, depends on what you need to do. We all know the good clients who need like a drop of work, like a drop of work. But then your time is spent with like the people that are like, you know, you just can pull their pants up in the morning. What does that mean? That just means that humans will actually always fall into those categories, but you need better accountability, processes, tracking, and so on. So I think that's a great, like it's amazing to hear because most people don't do that, you know, at all,

Reputation First With Accountability Delivery

Darren Lee

which is wild.

Cameron England

And that's why I think the info space is a lot easier for the people that actually understand business. I'm so grateful that I ran an agency that was hell for like two or three years. Because if I went right into info, like most people do, I wouldn't have achieved any level of success to the point I have now. Because when you go from running an agency, we're like the hiring cycle, it's way shorter. For example, every month I might have to bring on two call center agents because we're literally running a call center, a CSM, a media buyer. We have clients that we literally have to babysit that don't understand how to open the ads manager or how to sell people in their office because we work with medical clinics. When we go from doing that, that gave me such a good foundation. Because I basically learned how to run a team that could be the equivalent of an a million a month info product for a 200k a month agency.

Darren Lee

So true, man. Because so for our content agency, we're managing editors, right? Yeah. And editors and setters are basically the same archetype, just retards. Mentally retarded, right? Yeah. Because they're young, they want, they got into the real world, they paid $47 a month, and now they want to become a millionaire. Yep. Uh, we were losing editors like daily, and then we'd have to hire an editor that day and depend our entire content strategy on a 16-year-old. Yeah. And it's like, it worked. Like you get it, you make it work, you know. So that was actually a question I had for you was like that transition across from like agency to info and just about that kind of world building. But I guess your goal has to be a million a month from here, right?

Cameron England

My goal is a million a month. And to be frank, we could have hit it in April. 100% we could have hit it. This is the thing, because I'm in a lot of masterminds. Um, you know, Jeremy Haynes' mastermind is like big on like a million a month, a million a month, a million a month. And I think that's

Million A Month Without Losing Yourself

Cameron England

great because when I officially joined that mastermind about a year ago, that number seemed big to me. But now it just seems really small because through exposure, you become normalized to things, right? Whether that's in the form of you like reading a vision board and uh looking in, like manifesting it on a morning basis, whatever it may be, or it's just being around those people. Exposure makes it normal. And when it's normal, you don't pedestalize it, you close the gap of excessive importance. And what I realized is I don't want to just hit a million a month for the sake of hitting a million a month. I want to hit it consistently with high margin with a great team. Like we we launched a new offer, which was one of the biggest mistakes that I could have made. And I spoke about it in the talk that I did yesterday. I launched a new offer that was completely adjacent to our business, that was already running really well, and it grew really fast. And all it would have took is us just putting the ad spend up more because the ROAS was very healthy. But we didn't because I realized, well, yeah, short term this looks good, but long term this could really mess my reputation up because this is not a business I want to run and I don't enjoy it at all. And I would be gritting my teeth with it. So that's my official goal or initial goal, which I'm pretty confident we'll hit in the next 90 days. It's a milestone.

Darren Lee

It is, you know what I mean? It's a milestone. It's just like scoreboard, just have something on the board, have something to work towards. But I think at the end of the day, man, and I want to ask you about this specifically is about like what keeps you actually going. My observation is so I've been in this space for fucking ages, and like you've seen it too. Like, all the guys come and go, yeah, right? They come and go, and like they're great, like a lot of the guys are good, like they're smart, they're good marketers, and so on. I'll get I'll tell you like a like a more a more like clear story. So I met Dan Henry at Imman's Mastermind in February. It was great. I've followed Dan for years. Dan's almost 40 now, I think he's almost 40. And I was like, Man, like you know, like what do you do? Like, what do you do? And he was like, He's gonna see, I just turn off things every once in a while, like just go, you know, to like I go with my wife to like wherever and so on. And he was like, as a result, I've been in the industry for 15 years. Yeah, so he's able to kind of like pedal based on what he wants and where his kind of seasons exactly. You know, he has a kid and all this kind of stuff, and I just thought it was quite interesting because he was like, Yeah, man, like I'm still running a paid workshop like next week, you know? He's like, I'm still running a webinar. But I thought it was quite interesting because he's almost 40 and he's just doing what he's fucking good at. There's seasons to his business, but he doesn't need to quit. Yeah. So I wonder what what is that for you? Like, how do you how did you at 20 years old get to like 700k a month and not realize that oh I could put the gas and you know, pull off the pull off the gas and just you know, rip shit and marbea for the summer.

Dating And Backfilling A Life

Cameron England

So true, so true. And I've battled with this a lot. I think for the for the first few years, I deprived myself of all the rewards. And I've I've worked a lot on this. Like in the last, for example, I worked with Nero Knowledge, Ibrahim, I worked with a bunch of people, and I spent like hundreds of thousands of dollars to like I love investing in myself. It's honestly like uh the most healthy yet unhealthy obsession because sometimes I overspend unnecessarily. For the first few years, I intentionally deprived myself of any reward, which, you know, looking back on it, should I have rewarded myself at certain milestones? Yeah. But I'm also grateful that I didn't because it kept me pushing really, really hard. And I would go through this cycle where I would work really hard, and then once every like month, I would like burn out a little bit. And I would have this day where I would just do every bad habit in the book and just like lay there like a fat old man all day, and then I'd be and then I'd be so sick of myself that I would then get back in and do it again for another month, which is funny, but it was only this year that I started living life more. Like it was only this year that I started traveling, it was only this year that I started recording content outside of my apartment office. Like I only moved out of my home like a year ago with my family in the UK. For me, right now, the thing that keeps me going, and I've thought a lot about this, is I think in the early stages of business, specifically like zero to 50 or even $100,000 a month, a lot of it is driven by like insecurity and pain and the need to like self-validate and get external validation from other people. And then at a certain point, you can switch that to be okay, I can still channel into that pain when I'm in a season where it's necessary, but I also need to figure out what I actually want to do. Because I can't live like this forever, where I'm running a business where it's like grind and it has to be painful and all these things that I believe we've been conditioned to believe from like even names like Himose. Like, it's funny you see and you watch this Tony Robbins podcast and you see he's had a kid now, and like his life's probably completely changed and the way he works. So, long-winded answer, but I love the game now. Like I genuinely do. And my goal right now is how can I do the things? And there's this like there's this like circle or graph that I saw in this book. I can't even remember what it was. Where it's like you want to find the things that you're passionate about that make you money, that you also, again, really enjoy. And in the middle of those three things is where you want to spend 90% of your time.

Darren Lee

And also your skill, man. Yeah, you know, I spoke with James with this earlier, is like the the other component of that is where where what's your zone, what's your zone of genius, you know? Like what is it like we're quite similar in terms of like we love just chat and shit, right? It's like that's where our zone of genius is, which is what brings in the business, you know? Yeah, like um, I talk a lot about how we've a large team, but the reason we have a large team is so that I can be doing these things all the fucking time, yeah. You know, and like coming to these events and speaking and setting aside time, and if I don't have the right people in the right seats, I can't do those things. Uh I'm curious, right? Like, you're making a whack load of cash, you're 20 years old. Like, how do you like live life with like chicks and shit? Like, how what what happens in that domain? Because like you get a very warped view of like the universe, and also you're based in Dubai too, right? Yeah, which doesn't help at all.

Cameron England

No, no, no. The dating scene now there is dead. But I'm I'm not there a lot anymore. I've been traveling a lot, you know, been in Bali, in Miami, here now. So I'm traveling still not good, bro.

Darren Lee

No, no, it's not like you're going to like Stockholm, no white material, harder to find anyway. How do you like separate like I'm gonna like work now and then I'm gonna like maybe like invest in like a relationship, or maybe I'm gonna invest in like because it you know those things are good for you, yeah, but it's also like and then the question then becomes for someone like yourself is like, do you even need that? Like, do you even need that that side of it? You know, I'm just curious.

Cameron England

I went through this like season in business, and I think everyone has to go through it. For me, it was like one or two years where I did nothing except work, gym, sleep, repeat, and I was completely socially isolated. The only people I would meet were on Zoom, that was it. Now I'm in a season where I'm kind of doing the opposite. I'm working a lot less. We obviously have the team, the infrastructure in place, so I can. And there was like this big transition period that was really uncomfortable for me because I'm so used to trying to fill every unit of time with something productive, and I felt like there was like this hole in my life. But to answer your question with the dating stuff and like all the other domains of life, like health, wealth, love, relationships, happiness. For me initially, the only priority was health and wealth, and those things are still top of the chain for me. But now I am allocating more time to like relationships, happiness, experiencing. For me, I'm still figuring out the dating thing, to be frank with you, because there's no way that I envision myself dating somebody that's my age. I think it would be like one in 10 million because I'd need someone that's mature and like understands this space, and that's hard to find as well. I'm traveling a lot, I ain't finding one in Dubai just to understand info.

Darren Lee

It's like there's a course and it's on WAP, and then she's she's like, I'm speaking a different language, you know? It's like we sell courses on the internet, yeah. Man, it's uh it's in it's interesting because there's the whole idea of like you come into money young and then it's like how do you like the like the kind of tale is like do you find a girl or do you find a business first, and then vice versa. Does that make sense? But for you, it wasn't a scenario of like, do I decide that it was like oh shit, like I've actually built this massive business and now I have to backfill life.

Cameron England

Exactly. Because there's there's so many things. I'm I feel like I've condensed 10 years of business into like three or four, if not more. But other areas of my life have been completely they haven't had any attention as a result of that. So, like for example, I've never been in a job. I barely even knew how to drive, I've never washed my clothes ever, I've never barely ironed my clothes ever. I've barely ever cooked food ever. I know how to cook a piece of toast and an egg. That is it. But like the that's it. But the good thing is, I don't have to do those things because I can just delegate them. So I'm kind of grateful for it because if I was good at them, maybe I'd want to do it more. But I'm like, you're right, I have to backfill all these things. Even the dating thing, like I became a bit of a social retard in the dating side because I hadn't spoken to any women in like two years, and I had to backfill that. And I had to like get good at that, much like I did in business. I'm like, okay, let me like carve out blocks to go and like solve this problem. That's why, and that was no joke when I was I put on the presentation how I book two to three dates a week. I have an appointment set in my hinge account.

unknown

Yeah.

Cameron England

So I was like, okay, I was doing my yearly plan. I'm like, what domains of my life are less developed than others? I'm like, the dating side. I feel like the longer I wait, the more successful I get, the harder it's gonna be to find someone that's genuine. So I'm like, okay, let me like develop this skill. So I'm like, scrolling on hinge and Tinder sounds very low leverage. So let me just get someone to do it. So I have a commission only appointment setter. Is it a girl or a guy? A boy, a guy, even from the US, $125 a show, and he has all these SOPs. I I carved out a few hours.

Darren Lee

I wonder if SOP if you had a chick, would it be better? You know?

Cameron England

I don't know. I feel like, I mean, do you go to the fish to figure out how to fish or do you go to the fisherman?

Darren Lee

What has that got to do in this context? I think it's the same thing, no. But if you think about it, right, like if a guy, if a girl who properly knows like the emotional side of chicks is in the DMs and is running those conversations, would probably get you more qualified people.

Cameron England

He's just following an SOP though.

Darren Lee

Yeah, true.

Cameron England

Who says the same things every time, and it's just like I have a Slack channel, and he just tags this AI in the channel, it's like, hey, book Stacey Inn on the calendar at 9 p.m. tomorrow. No. And I just get notified, I'm like sick.

Darren Lee

And you can show up.

Cameron England

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

Darren Lee

Do you get much closer notes beforehand?

Cameron England

Yeah. He gives me a brief, you know, I get the pictures, I get the notes, I get the conversation, I have it all dialed in. I did take a bit of a break from that though, because it got a bit much, I'll be real.

Darren Lee

Yeah, that's why people hire closers. Yeah, yeah. You can't do that in the day.

Cameron England

I can't I can't hire a closer in that one. Hire somebody to just do it for me.

Darren Lee

Oh man. You know what actually what could be valuable? You know, uh, do you know a guy called Marcus Hussle by any chance? That name rings a bell. Based in Dubai. Yeah. I actually know Marcus actually very well. He's been in like space for years. He has like fake names and fake jobs. So he maybe he doesn't do much too much on the name stuff, but definitely on the job stuff. Yeah. So they'd be like, Oh, like you're quite wealthy, like what do you do? And he's like, Oh, like I'm a scientist from NASA. And then they're like, And then he's like, Yeah, and he just kind of like runs with it. And then he same with other shit and stuff, and like he'd either play it the whole way down or like really, really play it down. Because I I guess like what's like going on here is like you're trying to find someone's like actual true intentions, yeah. And like, look, people aren't badly ill intentional in the beginning, obviously for sure. But I just think this is like a very interesting mental model because it's like how do you apply that logic of business into this?

Cameron England

Yeah, yeah. I think you have to be like on a different level of autism to do what I did. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, like to have SOPs on hinge is a little bit too brought it's a little bit crazy.

Intuition Human Design And Therapy

Darren Lee

Okay, let's chat about something to do with actual business. So like on topic. Yeah, one thing that is obviously even even more crazy now is the fact that because you've never had a job, you've never really because you've never had a job, you've never knew how to build a business or worked in a business. So for conic, I used to work at Revolute, yeah, and I worked at a few other kind of big gay companies too. So I knew like hierarchies and structure, and why you don't talk to the CEO and why you speak to your manager, but X, Y is their problem. And that may look annoying and kind of boring, but like the structure is why this is a lot of people. So, how did you learn that in a very adaptive way? Because it's not like you stalled. So we talked yesterday, I mentioned yesterday the difference between growth and scale. Like we scale really hard, but then we slow down to grow. Yep. And then I did a bunch of very, very uh high salary uh hires as a result. Um, how did you approach that?

Cameron England

Yeah, good question. So the way I see it is I think like 80% of people, 90% of people do that, and it makes complete sense. Like, even James is an example, you know, he worked with E-Man and he understood how to lead, how to manage a team because he was on the front lines of that. For me, I considered that. Like when I was building my agency and I really knew nothing about business and I was just figuring it out, I started getting job opportunities that were like I was 16 and got offered a sales job with a 10k a month base. And I called my mum, I remember, and I was like, Mom, I've just been offered a job, 120k a year plus commission, that's my base, and it was a base plus draw. So, like whatever's higher, I would get. And this was with someone I looked up to in the online space, and she was like, Oh my god, this is crazy, go and take it. And just something in my gut was like, Don't take it, just like stick the path. So for me, I always thought How did you know that? How did I know that? Yeah, in terms of like this was the right thing.

Darren Lee

Yeah, so you get this opportunity, more money than you've ever seen your entire life, and you say no, away.

Cameron England

I've always trusted my intuition, and whether you believe that's God, higher power, I personally believe it's a bit of both. There's this thing that I did recently again, and it's called my human design. Have you heard of it? Yeah, and it like runs you through your archetypes and what you're good at and what you're bad at. And you know, I partly believe it, I partly don't, but one thing it's said, which I've always used as like a guiding principle, is I have a really good intuition in like knowing if something is right or wrong. And this is like, you know, in business, you have big decisions to make, and you've got to look at it logically. I also think you've got to look at how do you feel about the decision as well. So for me, like my intuition was telling me I feel like I'm meant for more than this.

Darren Lee

So, do you mean like actual like your human design? Yeah. Yeah, speak to that woman over there who does human design coaching afterwards. That's how I'm saying really, really into that. So, like, that's actually a huge part of a lot of our clients, even. I think it's so important. I think a lot of people who've tried, I think I think what's really interesting because that observation is like you try to figure out why the fuck are you a certain way. You get me? And this is where people either have an accidental crisis or they actually go on that kind of identity to be like, okay, I am this way, and then therefore I can be more like myself.

Cameron England

Yeah. I think the best thing I ever invested in was therapy. And I wasn't even messed up. I was like the happiest I've ever been. I am now, I love my life. I invested in therapy and I still do it now pretty consistently. One or two hours a week, they ask me questions, I learn more about myself. I think that's the best thing anyone can do. Because I can start to pick up on why I am the way I am and understand more about what I'm good at and what I'm not good at and why I do the things I do. That's been the best thing I've ever invested in. And it was probably one of the cheapest things I've ever invested in as well. I wonder what was the catalyst to do that. Good question. Why? I've always just had so much curiosity. Like growing up in school, if there's something I'm even the slightest bit not interested in, I will not listen at all. I've more than likely got like severe ADHD, but the good ADHD.

Darren Lee

The autism one.

Cameron England

Yeah, the autism one, exactly. But if I if I'm interested in something, I I can like lock in. I can zone in on that thing and I can focus like I've never seen anyone or myself focus ever before. And one of those things for me is I always have been extremely interested in how we work as humans. I love just getting super deep and looking macro on like this rock we're on, and this like in the grand scheme of things, we're in like this meat skeleton, riding on a rock in the universe out of thousands of universes and planets and whatever the fuck is going on. And I just think it's so cool when you think about life that way.

Darren Lee

How do you not uh lean into that too much and just become like someone who walks around Bali with no shoes? You know, because there has to be You use shrooms all day. Yeah, because like for me, and I wanted to ask you about this too, like for me, like I'm like that, but I have to put a lid on it. So true, right? Because if I get too introspective, like even like my team would often say, like, oh, like you know what this happened, or there's this going on. And I'm like, I'm literally like my hand, like la la la la la. Like I'm trying to ignore it deliberately because I got an issue on my ads. Yeah, it makes sense, and I'm like trying to fix that autistic issue. So, like, where's the where's the balance there? And it's interesting.

Cameron England

I think it's like, I don't even think it's like this way or this way. The way I see it is like a knob, it's a knob you've got to twist and you've got to find the happy medium because I've seen it where people go too far and they like I have a friend who is probably one of the most intelligent people I've ever met, and he gives me some of the best ideas in my business, yet he barely makes any money because he is almost so relaxed that he doesn't have any drive to take the action to actually make the money.

Darren Lee

You don't get rewarded for intellect.

Cameron England

Exactly. So to answer your question, I just feel like I've always been pretty good at zooming out and looking at both the logical and the illogical. And again, it's like a knob you've got to constantly twist. For me, I think zooming out on your life and looking at the macro can help in like difficult situations. That's helped me a ton. I had this thing on my lock screen for a long time I would read in hard situations where it said, everything in life is in divine timing. This is all meant to happen. And I think when you zoom out on all the most challenging things that have ever happened in life and in business on a three, six, 12 month time horizon, you almost look back and feel grateful every time. You're like, oh, this came up in my life to teach me this lesson. But then at the same time, when you're in the micro of day-to-day, you do have to look at the logical of, okay, yeah, everything's in divine timing, but why is this problem coming up? What's the constraint? Is there any immediate levers that I can pull to solve that problem? So I just think there's like both sides of the spectrum you've got to look at.

Darren Lee

So that's in the moment. So, like, you know, ad account goes down, Instagram goes down, what am I gonna do? How do you separate the time to reflect? Because that's something that I don't do. I can solve shit, and then it's like, oh, whack, it's like whack-a-mall, bro. Right? You look at like the fucking video game and it's like you're gonna be. That's literally it. And another thing pops back up. So an issue that I have is that I don't do that reflective. I want to just learn for yourself like what's the mental model to be like, okay, it's Thursday, I'm gonna sit down and go over this, but how are you gonna go over

Reflection Calluses And Bigger Problems

Darren Lee

this?

Cameron England

Yeah, I think there's a time and a place to do it. I know when I feel like something's off. You know, when like you've been doing the same thing for so long, and it's almost like you're not growing, or maybe you just don't have the level of fire or passion for the thing you're doing that you historically did. A recent example of that would be in my business about four months ago. I felt like that we were hitting a point of disproportionate return with growth, and I just felt something was misaligned. And I just blocked out a day to just not work and just reflected and thought and zoomed out on the logical side as well. Like I looked at all the numbers of the business and what was happening, and I just spoke with Claude on what was going on and my thoughts. And that's where I decided to like completely change direction. Turns out that was a fucking terrible decision, but sometimes you live and you learn, right? So for me, I would be lying if I said I zoom out as much as I did when I was starting, because I think there was a lot more challenges then. Because I think the more problems you go through, the thicker skin you build. And the more you just become like hysterical at the problems. Like for me now, for example, my Instagram got shut down like three months ago. If that happened when I was starting out and that was a big revenue driver, I'd Be freaking out. But I just look at it, I'm like, fuck's sake. Yeah. Yeah, it is what it is. What can you do?

Darren Lee

We literally had this conversation earlier, which is like you almost it's like you, it's like what Goggin says it's like you build a calluses in the mind. Exactly. But it's like you almost expect it. Like I don't want to name names, but like there's lots of like lawsuits for very famous entrepreneurs, and they just continue on as is. Now they're obviously feeling it, and they're obviously feeling it somehow. Yeah. But they don't let it stop them from doing what they're meant to be doing, right? So what I'm trying to say is like the bigger you get, the bigger your problems. Exactly. And if you are going through like a legal thing, let's say for an instance, for instance, they've learned to compartmentalize that, which would crush the average person that walks around Tesco. Call the Tesco test. Walk around Tesco, bro. You see who's showing up to your webinars on a Tesco test, right? Yeah. It's like that's the barometer of like a normal person. So where can you where can you grow from there as a benchmark, effectively?

Cameron England

I I heard this story. Whenever I went through a difficult time, I would always try and find these like podcasts to figure out how to handle these situations. And I listened to this one one time on Patrick Bet David, and it said that at his company, it's completely normal for him to get a lawsuit from a team member once every two weeks. And I'm like, there is levels to the game. Yeah. Like, could I right now tolerate that level of stress? Probably not. And that's why he's where he is. Because it's like the level of pain tolerance you have is in direct correlation to how much money you make, the bigger the company you have, because essentially the more money you make, the more responsibility you have, the bigger the problem you solve.

Darren Lee

And his book, uh, it's like your next five moves or whatever, is actually based around that, which is shit's gonna happen to you. He has some specific examples, uh, like his company going under or whatever that was, and then it was about his next five moves in that in that moment. And it's it's like a mental model. I actually think about that quite regularly. It's like, okay, shit's happened. It's either happening to me or for me, but regardless, I gotta do something about it, and what are we gonna do about it? Like, when I I'll give you an example, when our Instagram went down, we got a big team, and like I got two companies, yeah. Not one, two, and they're both like different. And it was like I spoke to my like senior team, and I was like, this sucks, but we're gonna get through it, we're gonna have the best time ever at the end of it. And like, I was obviously like burning inside, but like you just want to like get on with it, approach it, okay. What are we doing? Yes, things are getting delayed, all this kind of stuff. But I like to think about it that way, just being like, can you hold your head in these moments? Yeah. When people would expect you to blow a fuse, you know?

Cameron England

And you have to with your team as well. That's a habit and a skill that I've I feel like I'm pretty good at it now.

Leadership By Example And Closing

Cameron England

In the early days, if a problem came up and I had like one team member, I'm like, we're fucked.

Darren Lee

Same, we're fucked, same.

Cameron England

I'm freaking out. But it's like trickle-down culture, right? If you're freaking out, the whole team's gonna freak out. It's like as the leader and the founder, you have to be like a rock in water. You can't be moved, you can't be shaken.

Darren Lee

I'll I'll I have this great example of I had this sales manager and we had a restriction on Instagram. And uh, when I went into the office, he literally like, ah, like everything's fucked, everything's fucked. And he's like saying to like a bunch of setters, and I looked at him and I was like, bro, you don't get to do that anymore. Like you're a manager. Yep. Like like when you were a junior sales rep, you could say whatever you want and no one cared anyway because you're junior. But now because people look up to you, if you're shitting your pants and losing your mind at the same time, what things are gonna happen around you? Like for me, I can brush that off for you doing that, but like you don't get that ability any any longer. Yep. You know what it's like? It's like if you had kids, I don't have kids. If you had kids and you came home and you're like, we're all fucked, the kids are gonna be like, Yeah, we are fucked, you know. So I think like it's leading by example. So my last question for you is like, at 20 years old, making this money, how do you set the best example for your team and also your clients? Because your clients are a reflection of you, right? Yeah.

Cameron England

The way I see it is my responsibility is to do all the things that I tell them to do. I would never ever tell any of my team or any of my clients to do anything I would not be willing to do myself, or I haven't already done. If I tell an automation guy that this system needs building out today, this is something that I would quite literally get in the trenches and do myself. In fact, I've probably done it. The same applies with my clients. If I tell them to do something, if I say, you're spending $50 a day, stop being a bitch, go to 300 a day, go to 500 a day, go to 5K a day, I've done the exact same thing and I've faced the exact same problems. So I think you've got to lead by example. The way I see it is with your team and with your clients, they don't do what you tell them to do. They do what they think is acceptable based on what you do. So if I tell my team, hey, you have to take ownership for your mistakes, and then if I fuck up, I blame everybody else on the team and take no responsibility or an external circumstance outside of our control, they're subconsciously gonna start thinking, oh, well, if Cameron can do this, then I could do this. Because I think that everything in life is a mirror. Everybody reflects their insecurities back on you.

Darren Lee

So children imitate 80% of their adults, and in your adult life, you imitate 40% of the people around you. So your people are buying your coaching, they're looking at you and they're like, well, if Cameron's gonna be a degenerate, I'm gonna be degenerate. Exactly.

Cameron England

And I found that since I started taking personal branding way more seriously, I started taking more risk, I started focusing way more on not just wealth, but health, love, relationships, happiness, all of it, we started attracting so much better talent. And this isn't just talent that's coming and being like, yeah, you know, I kind of want to work here, we've got to sell them on it. People that straight up have made like 30, 50 grand a month in their own business that are like, I'll drop this to work with you because I know where you're going and I see how much potential you have and where you're at now so young. I want to join your team and learn from you. And all of a sudden, now we're treating the team like how do we assemble a team of Avengers? I want the best people on my team. I want people on my team that when we rock up to an event or we walk into a room or somebody speaks to a CSM on our team, they're like, holy shit, like this guy could run his own 100 to 200k a month business. It's like Hamosi's team is like that. They have an insane level of talent because Himose leads by example.

Darren Lee

Yeah, man. Like everything's a everything's a mirror. Everything's a reflection, your business reflection of you, your clients are a reflection of you. Man, I'm sorry, big thank you. You're absolutely a legend. Very grateful to meet you, man. We'll do a longer session again. Don't worry about it. Absolutely. Thank you so much, bro. Appreciate it.