ADJUSTED

Changing Workers Compensation with Bob Wilson

February 21, 2022 Berkley Industrial Comp Season 3 Episode 30
ADJUSTED
Changing Workers Compensation with Bob Wilson
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, ADJUSTED welcomes Bob Wilson President & CEO  of WorkersCompensation.com. Bob shares his thoughts on the changes happening within the workers compensation industry.

Season 3 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin and guest co-host Mike Gilmartin, Area Vice President, Sales & Distribution, for Key Risk.

Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to marketing@berkindcomp.com
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at camrunyan9@gmail.com

Greg Hamlin:

Hello, everybody and welcome to Adjusted. I'm your host Greg Hamlin coming at you from Sweet Home, Alabama and Berkeley industrial comp. And with me is my co-host for the day. Mike Gilmartin. Mike, do you wanna introduce yourself to everybody?

Mike Gilmartin:

Yeah, excited to be back, Mike Gilmartin. I work at key risk. And I'm based in Greensboro, North Carolina. And Greg keeps asking me to come back. So I've decided to oblige. It's great.

Greg Hamlin:

Glad to have you, Mike, you always keep it interesting. So appreciate you giving up some time, we've got a special guest today, Bob Wilson, who was president of workerscompensation.com. And I think if you've been in the Workers Compensation space, and you haven't run into him, then you must not have been in here very long. So glad to have you join us, Bob.

Bob Wilson:

Thank you, Greg. Appreciate it.

Greg Hamlin:

So I always like to start asking how you got into the industry? Because I don't think there's too many of us that when we were little growing up, knew we were going to be in workers compensation. So Bob, how did you how did you fall into this industry?

Bob Wilson:

Well, you're absolutely right. I got here like everybody else by total accident. I think I had a web development business in the 90s. I'd had some background and technical recruiting for a software development firm done human resource work, to started a web development company in the mid 90s. And through that was introduced to a gentleman who had bought the domain worker's compensation.com in 1995, but had done nothing with it. This was in 1999. And we had we met had a general agreement on what could be done with the that type of domain. Turns out selling shoes is not a successful way to use that domain. Now, we set up a company in September of 1999. And that's it. I can't believe it's been I'm in my what will be my 23rd year in September, so I don't know where the time is gone. You know, it's funny you mentioned about showing up here by accident I speak I asked that question a lot when I speak at conferences and who who you know who really in their in their youth as a kid want to be a worker's comp professional and no one ever raises their hand and then a as anybody in college wanted to be a worker's comp professional and no one ever raises their hand but then you ask who woke up after a drunken stupor and found out they were a workers compensation professional? A few people actually raise their hand of that so I'm not quite sure but but the thing you gotta understand in this industry, it's like Hotel California, you can check out but you can never ever leave. Isn't that right?

Greg Hamlin:

That's really true. You see a lot of the same people bounce around in different spots over the years. It's true

Bob Wilson:

And even even good friends who have retired I still see them at conferences. They're still showing up. They forgot they retired. It's it's really it really is it's a it's a fascinating industry. I'm actually been very, very pleased with the 20. Some years I've been in it. I'm trying

Mike Gilmartin:

I'm trying to run from it personally, I started claims Naxos distribution. I'm trying to face myself towards the exit that no one ever has, but it's not working. Like it doesn't work

Bob Wilson:

Good Luck on that. We'll see it another year. On the wrap around when you're back in

Mike Gilmartin:

I'm supposed to be speaking at a conference coming up and you'll be out here. Yeah, exactly. That's it.

Bob Wilson:

What's that old line in the mobster movie I tried to get out and they sucked me back in. It's kind of like that. Actually, I think about there's a Sopranos episode that that line gets repeated.

Greg Hamlin:

That's great Bob, can you tell us a little bit about the resources that workers compensation.com provides?

Bob Wilson:

Sure, sure. I think a lot of people are familiar with the basic site workers compensation.com, which is a free resource. It's open to anybody who's interested in workers comp. It has state statutes, regulations, we have discussion forums, news, blogs, events and event calendar, a lot of useful information for the workers comp industry. And that, of course, is provides advertise and that's one of the services that we offer. But what a lot of people don't realize is we do a lot of work behind the scenes in data and forms management work for TPAs insurers self insured employers. Our primary product is a product called workerscompresearch.com, which is a subscription service. It's a multi jurisdiction compliance tool for people who are trying to manage claims across multiple jurisdictions to 3700 continually updated regular judicial jurisdictional forums, US keyword searchable rules and statutes, Compliance Center calculators, all sorts of tools, cheat sheets, customizable cheat sheets topic comparison center, that's our primary product. Out of that we support to others will product called Flash Form SSL, which will auto populate data, auto populate jurisdictional forms out of a claim system or software that accesses our library of forms. And we have a virtual claims kit, which is really a digital distribution of posting notices, brochures and other other products that are required when underwriting issues a new policy or when there's a renewal. You go to some of my probably 50% of the largest insurance companies in the company use that product. And it's been very, very successful hit some pain points with that one. I'd like to tell you, we're just brilliant and think of all these great ideas. But the reality is we just answered the phone and answer questions. And yeah, we think we could do that. And if we can answer a pain point, we'll we'll try and do it. So those are our primary products.

Greg Hamlin:

That's great. I know, our department, our company, in particular, relies on on your organization, just to make sure we're not messing up our forms, because like you said, you got 50 variants and changing all the time. And if you're operating in more than one or two states, it's hard to make sure you've got the most current form, and that you're doing things the right way.

Bob Wilson:

It's true. You know, I've become friends with a good number of regulators over the years in my work with SOC and the IBC. And I always thank them for continually changing forms and updating and keeping things complex and confusing, because frankly, it's keeping us in business. The states change between 200 and 400 forms every quarter, on average, that has dropped during the COVID era, it's been little less. But it's it's really for a company that's not specializing and trying to keep up with that data, and you're just trying to work within the confines of of those changes. It's very difficult. And I know several of the Berkeley companies use the virtual claims kit and some of the other products that we have. So we always appreciate that.

Mike Gilmartin:

Well, I think it's you know, it's funny, you said, you know, I I would venture a guess I mean, I've been doing this 15 years, even 20 years ago, I would say big insurance companies haven't always put a ton of focus on clients and making sure they have the right forms everything else. And every year, I feel like it ratchets up and penalties ratchet up and ratchet up. And everyone, there's such a huge focus on it. Now, I guess for you looking at it as a whole. What is the biggest change you've seen over the years? Have you been doing this in the industry?

Bob Wilson:

Well, biggest change in the industry, a couple that you touched on. One is you know, as state budgets get tighter and tighter, and it's harder for these agencies to for some of themon their their fiscal structure to fund their operations. Frankly, insurers become a target because there's money there if they can be if penalties can be assessed. In some states, it goes into the general fund, but in some states, it goes directly to fund the the agency that oversees you guys. And we've definitely seen a shift there. And some of the fines we've heard of are more arbitrary. I won't name the state. But we have one client who told us prior that they'd had a problem with a form wasn't, wasn't because we provided the wrong form. But the state had come to them and said they used it too often. And they wanted a pretty hefty fine, just because they determined they use the form too often. I don't even know what that means. But apparently someone in the regulatory level did. a little closer. You know, you asked about some of the changes in the industry over the 20 years, there have been a few negative changes. But I have to say, overall, I think there have been a lot more positive changes I've seen than I have negative negative change would be we have failed to really prepare for the gray tsunami of retirement that is now upon us. And I think we have a lot of work to catch up to cover for that. But, on a really positive level. You know, when I first joined this industry 20 Some years ago, case loads were extraordinarily high. For adjusters they're still high, but they're not as high overall as they used to be. And there was a real strong process and close mentality. And some of us for a long time have been clamoring for what we call a little more humanity in the system a little more empathy towards the position in situations that injured workers are in and a recognition that if we start treating them with an understanding treat the whole person versus versus just a body part that will actually save money and get better outcomes and have happier people all the way around. And I think the positive thing for me is, you know, when we first started, a lot of us started talking a few of us started talking about that over a decade ago, it was kind of a lonely field. Now it's becoming much more common. I was at the WCI conference in Orlando in December. And a lot of their sessions were focused on advocacy based claims, claims management, you know, really along the lines of recognizing the humanity and treating the whole person, which you which sounds somewhat soapy on the surface, but actually is a good business strategy in my mind, because it actually makes far better outcomes. And if you can reduce litigation, I think you know, it's a positive step. And I've seen a lot more of that in recent years. It's it's really encouraging trend to see.

Greg Hamlin:

Yeah, that's one of my obviously one of my big passion points is just I think that we treat if we do things the right way and we treat people the right way. It turns out more often than not, we get a better outcome, and everybody wins in that scenario.

Bob Wilson:

Exactly. You You know, sometimes when I speak at conferences, I will ask people, you know, these are largely compliant claims people and professionals in the industry. If you're an adjuster and you get a new file on your desk, what's your single overriding goal for that file? And inevitably, it's close. That's the goal. I want to close it, you know, thank you have a nice day, but don't have it here. And there's not a lot of thought about what happens afterward. There hasn't been traditionally a lot of thought about what happens to that person after it's closed. And certainly ever I can understand why you want to close files, but you want to close them with proper results. Yeah, you know, if we can avoid disability, get more focused on disability avoidance. It's just better, it's better for our society. And I think it's, again, if we do it right, you could do it with less litigation, which is where a lot of that money goes, that gets wasted.

Mike Gilmartin:

I think part of that, the point and I think part of one of the issues we've run into, over the last however many years, as we've continually asked adjusters to become experts in more and more things, there are more fields to fill out CMS issues that you need to be experts on. I mean, you need to be jurisdictional experts you need MSA experts need to be and it's really hard to be all those things. And they continue to think about the bottom line, which is the care of the injured worker and getting them back to work and everything out, right. Which is why I you know, a company in a group like yours are big deals in our industry, because if you ask the adjusters to be experts in everything, you're not going to be an expert at that. And so having people like you guys that do that work, and that can figure out what regulations are aware of what needs to be done. And automating some of that for groups is a big deal, because I couldn't agree more with the empathy thing. But I think what we forget, is even when I started adjusting, the amount of fields you had to fill in, everything else was nothing like it was 10 years later. I mean, the amount of information we ask people to collect, right be steards of is quite unbelievable. And I think it's, it's, the more we can take out of adjusters hands, they can do that work. And for example, the things you guys do make a big difference to the at the end of the day to be able to do the things we're talking about. And there's not a question there. I just I just think it's interesting point.

Bob Wilson:

No, no, not only that, doing that you're exactly right. And but add to that, that some adjusters have 200-250 files on their desk, right? None, they don't have it anymore. And I'm not going to name the it's it's a it's actually a monopolistic state. They had 300 files there their claims, people oh my gosh, you're not you're not managing a claim, you're just putting out fires when they erupt on your desk. You know, it's one of the things we talk about in conferences, too, is you put yourself in the position of that injured worker. First, we have to understand, I do a session called the wild and wacky world of workers comp, which actually is really there. There's one takeaway from the session is that nobody outside our industry understands anything about our industry, they don't understand how it works. So when they have an accident, first off, their employer stops talking to them, they get sent to the emergency room to a doctor, they wait a day or two, they get a call from someone they don't know who works for a company they've never heard of who mentioned something about timely bet paying benefits timely, and investigating their claim. Now as far as they knew, they fell down and broke their ankle. They didn't know that their claim needed to be investigated. And then they wait their doctors busy and won't answer their questions won't return their calls. They the adjuster is busy and can't quite often can't get back to them. You know, probably that free. One of the three points of contact was a voicemail, because they never answered the phone, you know, the injured worker doesn't answer the phone. And then they sit at home. And they wonder and they've got mortgage, they've got a spouse that wants to know where the next paycheck is coming from. They don't understand what's coming. Meanwhile, on the phone, you've got Larry, the lawyer telling them that if they've been hurt at the job, they need to hire a lawyer because they're gonna get screwed. And the backyard they've got an idiot brother in law who lives in the trailer, you know, everyone's got one of these brother in law's right, who knows absolutely everything in the world except how to keep a job. Yep, that he better hire a lawyer, and he gets screwed. So he goes out and he hires a lawyer. And guess what? The lawyer doesn't answer their calls. So I mean, because everyone's so busy and communication in the industry has not been a real strong point. So it really does spiral quickly beyond that, not just because the adjuster has to know absolutely everything about everything. And you're right, my company prides itself on trying to solve some of those problems shameless plug. But it really does come down to there's just too much of it the way we've got it structured to traditional No, that is that is getting better. I think I've seen decreasing workloads on some of these companies, you know, recognize that that is not an economical way to run the business.

Mike Gilmartin:

I was just I was in WCI commerce as well when I was on a panel and the number one thing I talked about 45 minutes was communication and the lack thereof and are interested I mean, it's it's very simple stuff. It's not rocket science. But if you actually people forget very quickly that the injured worker has no clue what's going on. Right we understand work comp they don't So how do we do better at upfront explaining it to them, letting them know the process, the comfort level of knowing the process? I mean, I couldn't agree more of what you said it's, it's a, it's a huge problem. But if you take a step back and you give people the right workloads and the right information, it's very doable.

Bob Wilson:

We get, because people don't understand the industry. They think that a lot of people, a lot of people believe that there's this big, nebulous agency that's, you know, sets the premium rates, issues, the policies pays the claims. And of course, they would have a website, if it was workers compensation, and the website would probably be worker's compensation.com. Therefore, we get tons of emails and phone calls from people, employers and employees who are lost. They're really looking for information we get subpoenaed for medical records. We get we get mail and medical bills for workers comp agencies from all over all over the country. There'll be literally I've had the workers, bills, medical bills sent to workman's comp Wyoming, at peal box 2432, Sarasota, Florida 34230. We've got him from Utah, we've had him from New York, we were subpoenaed five times from a law firm by a law firm in New York, it was a third party medical claim. Third party damage claim that they were looking for all the claim files, we get them all the time. So actually, not only do people outside the industry not know our process, sometimes people inside our industry aren't very familiar with them, either.

Greg Hamlin:

on the TPA side, or they're on the carrier side, where because of where you're sitting, you're kind of getting maybe more of a 5000 foot view on what's going on in the industry, because you're seeing it at this, whether it's a state fund, or, you know, some of the vendors I'm sure you run into too. And one of the things I wanted to focus on today with you, too, is just talking about changing worker's compensation, and what does that look like? And there are so many moving pieces going on right now in a COVID world. Hopefully, we're soon moving to a post COVID world. I don't know that we're there yet. Now that we have this Omnicron variant, and I was just sharing with Bob before the call or family now has had it the second time. And we've of course, been vaccinated, but it's a challenging world, Schools are shut down, people are trying to figure out how to again, teach their kids while they're working. And offices are trying to reopen and some are stumbling, some are moving to remote. And so I guess my curiosity is what are what are some of your thoughts on how this industry's workforce transitions when we get out of a COVID world?

Bob Wilson:

Well, I would first actually say how impressed I was that worker's compensation transitioned as deftly, as it did as smoothly as it did at the start of the pandemic. If you had told me five years ago that we would be able to overnight adopt a new technology, new to us, telemedicine, tele telecommunications, or video communications, I would have been shocked. But we did what we had to do. And I think that ultimately has forced us to embrace technologies that would have otherwise taken years to gain acceptance. I think going forward, obviously, remote work is going to affect our industry in two different ways. One remote work is here to stay for a lot of companies, either either a full time remote or a hybrid situation of two or three days a week at home couple days in the office. For our industry, it's interesting because not only do we have to function in that environment, we also have to manage claims that are produced out of that environment. And I COVID has been kind of unique all the way in that respect that not only are we dealing with it as employers, but we're dealing with it's the end product COVID has been foisted upon us, within the industry in most in many states. I think going forward though, any of the supervisors the mid management and upper level managers who are locked in that nine to five traditional work mentality are going to struggle. remote work is a different animal where people may not necessarily work nine to five I and you really need to start focusing there are those people who focus on how do I put it on effort versus outcome effort versus, you know, they see someone at the desk, they want you at your desk, they think your desk working doesn't necessarily mean you're producing anything. You have to look at the end result. My own company has gone virtual out of this. We had an office in downtown Sarasota, I still have it. One guy goes in every day. We went virtual when the pandemic hit. We reopened the office halfway through the numbers started climbing in Florida. We closed it again and I got a lot of pushback when we reopened and I'm a small company with like 12 employees in our office and we have some independent contractors who do writing for our new senator some reporters, we had some people who just didn't want to make the commute you know, and I have to be honest, you I've suddenly become one of them. It's a 40 minute drive now from where I live to the office, and it's like, traffic here is gotten very heavy, Florida is booming, everybody's moving here, it seems like but we, we decided to go remote. And the reality is we've made some changes, we have a daily Zoom meeting with everybody, it's all hands on board Monday through Friday at 10:30am, we have a Zoom meeting, I'm not a big fan of meetings, it may be 510 minutes long, it may be half an hour long. Some days, we may not even discuss business, but it does become our water cooler time. I think one of the biggest challenges on remote work is being isolated and not feeling part of a greater team, or having a focus or awareness of what else is going on in the company. And the Zoom meetings everyday have for us solved that problem. Now bigger companies obviously can't get everybody at once. But certainly departments should be able to bring people in and, and have that daily communication in an environment where now a lot of people are remote and isolated if that were and I think that's gonna be one of the biggest changes is maintaining those lines of communication and sense of team. In an environment where everyone's working at home, though for a lot of people are working at home.

Greg Hamlin:

Good insight.

Mike Gilmartin:

That goes, that goes directly to kind of the next talking point I you know, as the as the president of an organization, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. But with that, and I will hear you I think we're kind of the changes here to say and and in my opinion, it'll probably get more and more remote as we continue down the line. But how do you continue your culture when it comes to hiring and onboarding and not having that face to face? I think we all struggled, right. I know Greg does. We do I mean, interviewing is different. How you bring people into the company is different. And we work in a world where people really need to feel like they're part of a team because there's so much to learn in our industry. How do you How are you doing that your company? Or what are your thoughts on how you do that successful?

Bob Wilson:

Well, you've touched on the biggest challenge, I think with the remote environment is hiring and training, onboarding employees, we've hired two people during the pandemic, good people, but training has been difficult. It's a learning curve on what you can do. You know, there's a lot, there's a lot you can learn just by almost I want to say osmosis by being around conversations and listening to the processes, and getting to know what people do in the company. And when you don't have that in person contact. It's very difficult. I've got like I said, the two people we hired I know spent a longer time trying to come up to speed to what we've gotten, I think a lot of that is just the fact that we were remote and trying to do it remotely. And it's the first time we've done it in that manner. And we've learned a few things along the way. I still think you know, even though we are going to like for ourselves maintain a virtual presence, and will downsize the office, I will still maintain a physical location somewhere conference room and an office with a couple of desks where we used to joke. Three years ago, I would never told you I'd want to run a virtual company, my just I used to joke that I like to get people together in a room. And we can come to a boneheaded decision much faster than any large corporation can because we're small and nimble. And people together can solve those can address those issues will come to come to hopefully good conclusions, I still want to be able to do that, I still believe that you need to get physically in contact and be in the same room periodically. So we're still going to try and maintain that, even though it will be you know, maybe once or twice a month versus every single day. And I think those are but there's no doubt that that training new employees in a virtual environment is very, very difficult, because it's it's very hard for them to establish the team. But again, our daily calls have helped bring people up to speed on board, because a lot of the questions can be addressed during those calls.

Greg Hamlin:

I think that's going to be a huge challenge. And it's something I'm still trying to wrap my brain around when I think about it in that. And if you think when I when I was starting out in the industry almost 20 years ago, we had just kind of gone through the transition where a lot of the bigger fortune 100 companies had shut down their local offices and created regional offices that would cover seven 810 states.

Bob Wilson:

And I love those companies, by the way, because suddenly you're the adjuster who picks up seven new states loved,

Greg Hamlin:

But you know, I think what we may see or what I'm starting to see is companies are looking at now with this new virtual situation that well, if I need somebody in Pennsylvania, I could just hire that person, Pennsylvania and they could work from their house and we don't maybe need that same regional footprint. But then I guess my thought is how do you get to bringing new people into the industry? And what does that look like when you're spread out? And I don't know that we've cracked that nut but I'm just curious what your thoughts are on how do you find the next college graduates or people who maybe in other industries you can invite into this and how do they learn? Where like when I think about when I was training probably this way for Mike I had a manager, I also had a senior that I could just lean over and turn my desk around and say, you know, I have a question. How do you do this? And then when I felt like I bothered Kim too much, I could go over to John on the other side. But I think I've asked Kim three questions today, I need to save this next one for John, no thoughts on how we get to that.

Bob Wilson:

I wish I had the answers to all that because it is a challenge it is. First off, I think there's a big discussion, obviously, about how do we attract proper people into the industry to begin with, and I will tell you that workers compensation in my view, gets a bad rap in the public eye. And it's a part of it's our own fault. You know, we've talked about the process and closed mentality, the heavy workload for adjusters, the, you know, you're stuck in a cubicle, maybe it's a good thing, that people will not be stuck in cubicles all the time, it may actually be an attraction that you can now work at home. I think, you know, when you're in one of 300 cubicles on a floor, and you've got all these files, and you're on the phone all day, with people who generally don't like you, or are unhappy, they're unhappy, because, you know, think about the nature of our business. Nobody, you know, wants to talk to you until somebody's hurt, you know, and then when they're hurt, they're in pain, they're scared, they're angry, you know, I know a lot of injured workers that are angry. And usually, I'm hard pressed, sometimes it's hard pressed to find the injured worker who is responsible for their own injury, there's usually it's usually the boss who may rush them at work or something, you know, so they're angry at things and they're angry at the situation they're in. So it's kind of a negative environment environment, we should market ourselves to new employees as an industry that can restore broken lives, we can actually take a broken life and help restore, I think a lot of it is our own language. You know, if you're coming out of high school, especially, or college generation, generations coming out of school, now they say, you know, they want to make a difference in the world, they want to have a difference, what you can do that if you want to take someone whose life has been injured and make it better, that's something but when you talk about being an adjuster who processes claims, it loses something, our own language doesn't help us attract the right people to these positions. You know, getting the right people in the door would be a challenge. And we have to market ourselves appropriately to do that. Beyond that, I think we have to take advantage in the remote environment of all the tools, you may actually have to have physical time together, there still need to be offices where people can go and work together in the training process. And then beyond that, you know, I've worked with some some of the one of the guys have been with me since we started 22 years ago. And you know, we used to chat up a storm in the office. Now we found up on the phone sometimes just to catch up and find out what's going on, we've got to make that effort to continue to communicate either virtually you know, I don't know if you've noticed phone calls seem to be dead. Whenever you set up a call, you get a zoom link. Now, no one uses the telephone anymore. But it's still an excellent tool to be able to pick up and ask those three questions of John and one of Jim or Sally, when you're trying to learn the position to be available for those people. I sense some rambling, so I'll stop now.

Mike Gilmartin:

No, I think you both made really good points. I think you're the flip side of how do we attract more people into the industry, there's a way you can look at the virtual world we're moving to in a positive light my opinion, and that's that your talent pool, whereas if we want to hire an adjuster in Maryland, historically been obviously in Maryland, we're hiring somebody. Now, if I have somebody that I need for my Maryland team, my pool has opened up to all 50 states if I needed to. And so you're already attracting and I guess in terms of any positive spin on it, that will be one in terms of your talent pool has now opened up because you have the Virtual Ability to train people and bring people on and everything else. But you guys both hit on it. And I don't know how you fix it. But the osmosis of being around people, especially in claims is still huge, and probably big in all industries. But yeah, I mean, I remember Ada Williams sat behind me and Liberty when I first started and I just listened to her talk all day on the phone. And you're like, these are the kinds of conversations to have what did you do there? How did you do this? Why did you do that? And he will listen to you and say, Hey, man, I'm you probably shouldn't say that next time or hey, maybe we should do something different.

Bob Wilson:

Yeah, yep. We all learn for what we shouldn't have done. Yeah, that's right.

Mike Gilmartin:

Exactly. But you know, and Jabber and all those things and whatever, you know, platforms you use work. But yeah, my question is the same. I just don't know how you you replace that. And so I agree with you. I think always having some kind of physical presence is good. But it's a hard question to answer, in my opinion. I don't know. I mean,

Greg Hamlin:

Yeah, I think we're gonna see who figures it out because somebody's gonna have to, for sure, we're trying some things but I'm not ready to say that they're winning ideas yet. And

Bob Wilson:

it's tough. It's tough because there are some companies out there I'm looking at. There are some states of course, that require physical licensing and someone to be physically located in the state and that that still presents some problems, you know, and to the At end, the legal and regulatory world always lags trends and technology in terms of catching up. And that's not necessarily the regulator's fault. I actually have a lot of sympathy for the regulators in this country, I think they have a very difficult job. I'm not as sympathetic to the legislators of the country, who continually try to fix our system when they don't understand what they're fixing. And they usually fix it to the tune of whoever got their ear in this particular legislative session. But then the regulators have to take whatever they're given and make sense out of it, and make it work for everybody. So part of one of those issues is we need to get rid of some of those licensing requirements and or physical location in a state because it's becoming less and less relevant. But yeah, your point that the consolidation is impacting people, but it also is broadening the horizons as to people being able to work in multiple states and across multiple areas from a from a remote location.

Greg Hamlin:

I agree. You were talking some about change there, Bob. And, and I know you've been in this a long time. If you could have a magic wand, and you could change something in this industry, and it would just be done and solved. What what would be what would be the thing?

Bob Wilson:

Well, that's a softball question for me. So thanks for that. It's a and by the way, I've been told that I couldn't make myself chancellor of the realm that's really what I want to be is Chancellor of the realm. No, I have been my bandwagon for over a decade now is that the workers compensation industry is not properly branded, we're misbranded. We have a discussion for on workers compensation.com. And it's open to anybody but it's dominated by injured workers, they seem to have more time on their hands than a lot of us. And interestingly, during COVID, particularly last year, dramatic drop off and activity on that forum, I don't really have an answer to it. There are a couple other forums out there that I've seen the same thing, big drop offs. And I don't know why. But, you know, over over the life of the forum, it's 160, some 1000 posts and 17,000 threads. I mean, it's very active forum. For 20 years, we've seen a really common theme of a new injured worker coming into the discussion forum, they will leave a very long description of what happened to them, their particular injury will happen with the employer, they got sent to the doctor, they don't know what you know, they're, and they're looking for answers. They have no idea what's going to help. But they always seem to end the description with a variant of the same question. And that is, you know, this is what happened to me, how much will I make? How big will my settlement be? And I think when you think about it, and this has really been an education, you mentioned earlier how we have access to all the players in the industry from a really pretty neutral position. And that's true, it's been a really unique spot. And by the way, our discussion forum is an education curve for any new adjuster. You want to learn how injured workers think and what their views are, spend some time on the discussion forums. But when you think about it, you don't know anything about the system and you have an injury and you're told you need to file a workers compensation claim and in many states are sent to a workers compensation doctor. And then you're given a worker's compensation adjuster, they all focus on the word compensation. And they don't understand it, particularly in the context that we're statutory to statutorily defined to provide it, they, you know, they often have much different expectations of what they should be getting from what they really are. And, to me, that has led me to believe that we really should be called workers recovery. And that's been my big issue for over a decade. I think that simple word change would be a paradigm shift, not just for people coming into the system to set different expectations. But for people within the system, who are suddenly it goes beyond that. If I'm king for a day I've made wave my magic one, we would be called workers recovering. We wouldn't have adjusters anymore, get rid of the adjusters, they're all going to be called recovery specialists. Screw the guys in subrogation, they'll have to get different titles, but they should be recovery specialists and we wouldn't have injured workers we would have from day one recovering workers, they would be referred to as recovery workers, because you're setting different expectations to a point of recovery, versus a point of compensation and possible disability. And I really do think we know disability. In my mind, I come to detest the concept of disability, because we are an industry that unfortunately can take an impairment and create a disability from that impairment. And we've all known injured workers who have impairment and go on to recover and have a very productive and successful life. And then we know people who have the exact same injury, and they spiral down and completely fail. And part of what we're talking about is setting different expectations in that process to focus on a recovery mindset versus a process and close mentality. So I really do think shifting it and I've actually seen some I mean one of your companies has a workers recovery unit and like Greg I know it's the sister company UBS Yeah, Continental Western, they have a workers recovery unit thrilled me to death when I found out about that I can't take credit for it. But it was a you know, it's the same concept. I just got an email yesterday from a risk manager at a very large company out west, who's got the opportunity to rename her workers comp program, and she's talking about am I still talking about workers recoveries, it's still a viable option. So I really would like the regulator's in the states to change it. That's where it needs to change, I only need one, because once I can get one state to change, it'll all go. But if we have to do it from the ground up with insurance companies and private employers embracing that recovery mindset, I think we you know, that's what we'd like to do. So that's what I would do. If I were king for a day, I will tell you, Washington State revamped their entire vocational program, and they called it the vocational recovery program. And I was very honored. I was speaking at a conference out there and Ryan Guppy, who was at that time, the chief of partnerships for return to work programs, gave me credit or gave credit to the recovery use of the recovery term to what I had been promoting. That's probably the only little impact I've been able to have so far. That's because I'm not king for a day and can't wave my magic wand. So but that's what I would do.

Mike Gilmartin:

I think that's a great point. I think it's a really good initiative. I wish more people were on board with that. And I think it parlays into the next thought I have a question. You said something earlier about how surprised you were that when COVID hit the entire industry was able to move virtual, and it really didn't slow anybody down. I mean, it was kind of tough. And because I agree with you, I think workers comp generally lags behind everything. Insurance companies general generally lag behind on technology and everything else. But you just kind of spend the last 10 minutes overlaying one of the biggest issues we have, and everyone seems very slow to pick up on is this whole idea of empathy and kind of rebranding who we are and what our purpose is? Why do you think there is such a lag? In I mean, caseload is even like it's getting better, but it's still not where it needs to be. Why is there so much lag time on doing things that you and me and Greg would likely see as common sense? Because you have an outside view? If you're not involved in the insurance company level, you have an outside view of all of us? Why are we being so stupid? Bob, I guess would be the question.

Bob Wilson:

I do like to state because they are my customers, they're not stupid, we're not going to call my customers stupid.

Mike Gilmartin:

I also thought you would say being king per day, the requirement would be that every insurance company must sign up and have a contract with workers compensation background.

Bob Wilson:

That would be an assumed and by the way, I also own the domain workers recovery.com, because I'm not stupid. Okay. I mean, you know, I am not stupid, I will tell you that. I tell people, Mama only raised ugly children. But we are a really risk averse industry. I mean, when you think about it, I mean, we manage risk. And we actually, we deal with the fallout of improper risk management is really what we do in a lot of situations. very hesitant to change, very reluctant to be the first one out of the gate. Okay. No one wants to be first. You know, we rolled out the virtual claims kit number of years ago, and it was a request of the insurance company who used our forms and said, Are these licensed for public distribution? We said no, not but we could talk about that. How do we then we created a virtual claims, get the brands through a company's website. And I was on a call one day with a company that's a very good client. They've been they've they're what we call a trifecta, client. They have our three primary products. But they were looking at the virtual claims kit. And I was on a call one day, and had been talking to him for over a year. And there were 33 people on their Feasibility Committee. Okay. They had a Feasibility Committee. And there was me on my side of the call, I was traveling somewhere, as I said, a conference something and I was on my cell phone. And I remember one of the people on the call saying, you know, Bob, when we first started talking about the virtual claims kit, a year and a half ago, only one company had deployed the solution. How many other companies have deployed? I said, I actually said, and I was a little snarky, but it got a lot of laughs. I said, Well, the answer to your question lies in the middle of your question. We first started talking about this a year and a half ago, and everyone started laughing at someone, someone else said, Yeah, we're moving at lightning speed do takes a long time to go through decisions. You know, I and I don't mean this to be critical, because I will tell you what, there are a lot of really good people in this industry. And that's one thing that I think keeps people in the industry is there are a lot of people who really want to do the right thing. In a very difficult, heavily regulated environment. They want to be able to do the right thing by people. And that's something that's not known outside the industry that we don't get that credit for that. But they I listened to some of these calls, I'll be on calls with very big corporations. And I often joke that Dilbert is alive and well in corporate America because I will listen to them talk about having to negotiate access to resources within their own company, to be able to do things to utilize a certain product. And it really is interesting to listen to that type of internal structure. Because companies, some of these large companies are so heavily siloed departments don't really talk to each other. And I think that that slows down the adoption of new technologies. And there's a general mistrust of new things when this is the way we've always done it. And so if there's a benefit of COVID, is in many levels, it shattered that barrier, because we couldn't do it that way on, you know, on March 2, we could, and on March 3, we could not. And that really forced people to scrap their concerns, and reach out and adapt. And I think that that's been helpful. But I think that's why we've been slow to adopt new new trends and technologies, just because we are a very risk averse industry. And no one wants to be the first one in the pool.

Greg Hamlin:

Yeah, I hope it doesn't take another worldwide pandemic or catastrophic disaster for us to facilitate the next level of change. But, but Bob what do you what do you think needs to change? Or what needs to happen to facilitate that change at a faster pace? You mentioned silos? I don't know. You know, I guess our model is a little different than some, but I think many companies are still going to be siloed in the next few years. What what could move the needle forward on some of this?

Bob Wilson:

Well, I think the trend of new generations coming into the workforce, you know, Gen Z and Gen. Y, who knows the I don't even know who's coming after z are like five generations in the workforce. Now, those expectations from some of those newer generations will force change in the way we do things, if we want to attract them, we want to keep them, we want to be productive with them, we're going to have to do that. And I think communication, we have to improve our levels of communication. We as historically I think as an industry, we've not done a great job of communicating with injured workers or with each other. You know, and again, part of that is working in a fairly heavily regulated structured environment, this is the way we do it. And this is what the state requires. We have to get more accustomed to talking to one another, again, challenging in a remote environment for everyone who's going to be remote. But I think we have to improve our lines of communication, both internally and externally.

Greg Hamlin:

Great points, great points. And I would add my two cents to it as I think we need to have leaders who feel like they have the freedom to make changes, and not feel afraid to fail. Because there's going to be some mistakes along the way, too. I always say anytime you try to innovate and do something new, it's messy. And that's why people don't want to do it is there's there's always snags, there's always problems, and usually you're just directionally moving in the right place. Normally, you don't have that Apple moment where it's like, This is amazing. There's these directional, where it's like, okay, we took two steps forward, but we're definitely going to have to take a step back, because some of this did not work right.

Bob Wilson:

Absolutely. That is a fantastic point. I read a meme recently that just related to failures are not are not disasters, they're educational opportunities. And I was talking to a gentleman one time we talked about I have he had whole binders of ideas that did not work. You know, these ideas that didn't work. But you have to try things. I think you're right, you've hit on a point that we were afraid to try things because we don't want to fail. And the fact is, we can't change until we failed enough. Every failure is a step towards what needs to be done. We joke about the company a lot, because we have, you know, three or four very successful products. I have some other ideas that are on the ash heap of history somewhere that seemed like a good idea at the time. But yeah, you've got to be able to step out and be willing to try things. Absolutely.

Mike Gilmartin:

One and the attitude that it doesn't have to be all done right away, right, like little incremental changes, first of all, are easier to fail and recover from but it's a lot easier for people to grasp the digest and even if something is better than nothing. So I would say if you're going to learn from it, right? If you're going to it's going to work, right? If you're going to fail, but out of it come something different. That's awesome. But I think you said earlier, one of your

Bob Wilson:

Yeah, there's, you know, there's a saying that's clients and what we've been talking about it for a year and a half, because no one wants to make the decision to say, Okay, we don't wanna be there don't want to do it. Or if we're not going to do all of it, what part of it? Or do we want to do? Let's just get started with something and see where we go. And I think everyone always wants all the information and to know what's going to happen before they make a decision. And to Greg's point, we need leaders and people that are willing to say, let's give it a shot. Let's see what happens, right? We're not gonna buy the farm wreck of a company, but let's see where we go. Right. And those things all build on each other. not the big who eat the small it's the fast to eat the slow. And you think about that a lot because I hear a lot of people complaining about the consolidation in the industry. A lot of the vendors that people use have been acquired by a lot of venture capital money. Coming into the industry, a lot of acquisitions, a lot of consolidation, you see less and less people complaining about less and less choices for certain services they need within the industry. And what I actually see is companies that are going to get bigger and bigger and slower and perhaps become struggled to be that nimble as they once were. And that's an opportunity for other people to come in and you see it, you can already see, you know, the big wave started 5,6,7 years ago. And you can tell when the non competes expire, because the old players are back in with their new small, nimble companies come in to chip away again. And it is an opportunity. Some of those are opportunities for progress. And competition. Competition is very healthy, because it makes everyone try and be you have to be better. So I don't think that's necessarily a negative within the industry. But you're right. I love the fact that you say incremental change is good. Well, now you tell me. I mean, I should have known that a long time ago.

Greg Hamlin:

That's great. Well, Bob, we really enjoyed having me on this podcast today. There's, there's one thing I wanted to start doing in season three, that's a little different as I wanted to, with each of our guests. Now, there's so much negativity out in the world in general, I felt like there's just whether it's on the news, whether it's, you know, the pandemic, and I thought I would like to end every one of the episodes this year with a memory of a time that you were really happy. And so it doesn't have to be work comp related at all, Bob, but I wanted to know, if you would mind sharing with us a memory of a time that just comes to memory, when you are really happy, could be recent could be further in the past.

Bob Wilson:

There are several times I mean, I've been very happy from a business perspective, when some of our ideas have taken off and done very well. You know, when when you have that feeling of accomplishment. Alright. Well, again, this is all work related. At the national conference several years ago, national workers comp conferences, the ones usually in Vegas that happen to be in New Orleans, this particular year, the keynote speaker was Tim East who is the Director of Risk Management for Disney core. And during his keynote address, he talked about the concept of workers recovery. And he talked to him and he mentioned my blog, I write a blog where I've been promoting it. And he talked about the concept he said, You know, it's a really good idea. It makes sense. And I thought, you know, to be endorsed by Disney is a pretty happy thought for me. I'm not saying didn't I'm sure I'll hear from the lawyers from Disney. Now, Mr. Wilson, you have not been endorsed by but to have that level of endorsement, and that recognition was made me very, very happy I that made my day. He had contacted me prior to the event to get approval to use my name, because we're in a risk management world. And that's what risk managers do. Sure, sure. You know, and it took me about a nanosecond to say, Oh, sure, no problem. But that was that was really good. Beyond that there and there are lots of times in your in your private life and you're very happy you know that I remember some vacations with my wife in Maine, we love the state of Maine. It's very relaxing, you just enjoy it. There are a lot of things you know, worth living for. And there there will continue to be after pandemic after what post pandemic we can never get there. I don't know. That's the kind of caught me off guard with that.

Greg Hamlin:

I said, I'm glad I did. I got excited like both of those things.

Mike Gilmartin:

And you know, I think that somebody says the day I was asked to do adjusted for this question, because he wants someone this season to say now,

Bob Wilson:

I feel I've missed a glorious opportunity. Let me revise that. Well, it was the day the day it actually your listeners may not know we've had a little because of COVID and some other conflicts. It's been about what this our third tried to get this done today. I got three invitations to be on adjusted. So I'm really happy.

Greg Hamlin:

No, I love that answer though, Bob, because I think you hit on to two things that I love. One is if you're from Florida or Alabama and it's the summertime being up north is a good thing. Whether that's Maine or Michigan, I think Michigan was my spot. But there's nothing like 75 degree weather when you're in the high 90s Hundreds down here, and family times where it's at. I also totally agree with you mentioning, you know, having an idea catch fire or starting to see the seeds of that and making an impact. I often think to myself when this is all over, I hope that I've left some kind of impact impact for the positive. And so those moments you got to hang on to him when they happen.

Bob Wilson:

No, I think that's true. You know, the only thing that bottom line at the end of the at the end of the line you only you can take with you when you go is your reputation. And you want to make sure that it was right and that you've done done what you can you're not no one's perfect. We all make mistakes. But that's really important. But I will tell you, my wife will let you know that I'm famous for taking her to places at the wrong time of the year. Just before we went to I had an opportunity to speak in Anchorage, Alaska and I I've never been to Alaska. It was like I took it in a heartbeat. Yes, I'll be happy to. And we went up there, but it was in May, early May, was beautiful. But you know, Denali opens two weeks after we were there. We can see it from a distance, but we're not getting that close. Yeah, my timing sometimes is off. But it is there are a lot, a lot of those neat trips and memories that you have. But there are a lot, I think, and I'm going to be misogynist for a moment here, men, if you ask a man what he does, he will immediately talk about his job. He'll talk about what he does for a living. That's where we often identify ourselves. And I will tell you that I am one of the most fortunate people in the world that for 22 years, I have been doing something that I absolutely love. And I have absolutely no regrets on it's been a great run and a great experience and that and there aren't many people who can look back and say that you know, in that respect that level so it's been good, I'm very blessed.

Greg Hamlin:

I appreciate you Bob I your voice for good and the industry and I hope people will check out your blog and your website. I appreciate all you do to move the needle forward. And I also appreciate you taking the time to chat with us today.

Bob Wilson:

I appreciate the invitation I thank you this has been really enjoyable I've had a lot of fun with this today doesn't feel like an interview at all. You guys are very good at this so I appreciate that. Well Thanks Bob.

Greg Hamlin:

Well I just like to let everybody know that to continue to check us out you can see the blog on the off weeks every other Monday we have an episode dropper into season three now so encourage you if you haven't listened to some of the previous episodes to check them out. And as always remember to do right think differently. And don't forget to care. Thanks, guys.