In this episode, ADJUSTED welcomes Josh Shutts, Therapist with Brooks Rehab as well as a former patient and work comp claimant. Josh discusses his injury and recovery with Brooks Rehab as well as his experience with the work comp process. He also discusses his journey from being a patient to becoming a certified therapist.
Season 6 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin and guest co-host Matt Yehling, Directory of Claims at Midwest Employers Casualty.
Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to marketing@berkindcomp.com
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at camrunyan9@gmail.com
In this episode, ADJUSTED welcomes Josh Shutts, Therapist with Brooks Rehab as well as a former patient and work comp claimant. Josh discusses his injury and recovery with Brooks Rehab as well as his experience with the work comp process. He also discusses his journey from being a patient to becoming a certified therapist.
Season 6 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin and guest co-host Matt Yehling, Directory of Claims at Midwest Employers Casualty.
Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to marketing@berkindcomp.com
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at camrunyan9@gmail.com
All right, 321 Hello everybody and welcome to adjusted. I'm your host, Greg Hamlin coming at you from Sweet Home Alabama and Berkley industrial comp. And with me as my co host for the day, Matt yelling at you want to introduce yourself.
Matthew Yehling:Hello, everyone. This is Matthew Yaling. Coming from the banks of the mighty Mississippi up in St. Louis, Missouri. Just enjoying the nice summer weather we're having here.
Greg Hamlin:So glad to have you with with us again. As always. Today we have a special guest with us. Joshua shoots, did I say that right?
Joshua Shutts:You did or shuts like shuts the doors, shuts the door.
Greg Hamlin:Got it? Well, Joshua shots is with Brooks rehab. And so we're excited to have him here and you are in Jacksonville. Is that right? I am in Jacksonville, Florida, where it is also nice and warm right now. We've been pushing 100 Here, I bet but I bet it's worst. where you're at? Am I right? Yeah. So we wanted to have Josh here for a couple of reasons. We did an episode A while back with another employee of Brooks rehab, Josh shooty. And today, we wanted to actually have Josh on to tell us a little bit about his story, which I think is pretty unique. Because he has actually been on both sides of a workplace injury, which I think puts him maybe at a different perspective than any of us. So I want it if you could, Josh, tell us a little bit about how you were injured at work or how, what happened that day.
Joshua Shutts:So back on December 1 2017, I was operating a steel cutting bandsaw. It's put in perspective, it's about a$15,000 piece of equipment that can cut multiple steel bars within seconds. And the owner of the business was wanting me to learn all the outside operations so that I conventionally run all the outside operations. And this particular station was the last one that I needed to learn. Order came in late in the day. He said, Hey, can you knock this out? I said, Absolutely. I got my first cut in, which was a straight cut went into the second cut, which is about a 45 degree angle, my material got jammed. And I was like, well, let's try to fix this and finish the job. I took the bar out, I went to line it up manually. And my hand was just above it and I hit the wrong button on the machine. And I mean as fast as you can blink and pulled my hand right up into the saw and a cut all four fingers off my hand. And I hit the ground instantly really didn't know what happened at first. Because all I could see was just the jagged work love on my hand. In my co worker workers scrambled to stop me from bleeding out find, you know not to be graphic but five, what was cut off my hand. The trauma paramedics and the state troopers actually got there within minutes. They threw mini ambulance they took me up to a hospital that's actually attached to where I work now. They looked at me and we're like we we don't have anybody here that can give you a fighting chance to get your hand back. They called all over North Florida Southeast Georgia, they couldn't find a single hospital that was willing to see me. And then they found a hospital down Bradenton, Florida Blake Medical Center, and there was a surgeon down there at the time. He's actually at Sheppard in Atlanta now, that was the best hand surgeon in the state of Florida and he was willing to take a shot of me and so they put me on a trauma helicopter and flew me down to South Florida. Got down there. Got now the accident happened at about 130. So I didn't get into surgery till about nine o'clock that night. And I immediately went into a 16 hour surgery to reattach everything to my hand. And long story short, my middle finger didn't survive. So that one was really amputated. But once I was discharged, I still had my index finger, my ring finger and my pinky. And thankfully, my thumb was not touched at all.
Matthew Yehling:Wow, man, I mean, thanks for sharing that story. And I mean, and I know that's just the beginning. Right? That's the beginning of the treatment and the care you received. So I think to continue on with that what you know, what was the next maybe phase of care like
Joshua Shutts:So the next phase of cares, I woke up next day, in intensive care, I didn't know where I was, I didn't know what happened. I always tell people, if you've ever watched Spongebob, that buzzing sound that the jelly fishes make. That's what I heard in my head. That's what I felt my body. So I was very agitated. And I'm not normally like mean to people, I don't know. But I was very just anybody that was in my sight, got in the hair full. So I spent the next few days in there, just constant revascularize. And they had my arm basically holding my right arm up like in a cobra. And it was just kind of like getting everything flowing again, because the surgeon reattached everything that holds your finger together, arteries, veins, bone, nerves, muscle tendons, all of it. And 10 days later, I was discharged to home, which at the time for me was St. Augustine says about a three and a half, four hour drive back home. And then I was and I was pretty much there for about a month close to a month and a half. And then that's when I finally had my evaluation with Brooks rehab, and I met a certified hand specialist in St. Augustine, Florida. And that's where the rehab journey began.
Greg Hamlin:So I imagine there was a fair amount of rehab for you to gain use of your hand again, what was that like? Or what were some of the things they had to do?
Joshua Shutts:There was a tremendous amount of rehab. So it started off in baby steps, they went from having my hand arm up, like basically holding my arm up like a cobra to extending my arm out to get used to like holding my arm down to my side, which to all of us, that sounds like a normal function. But for me, it was extremely painful. Like if you've ever had like your leg, like totally sleeping, you try to walk, that's what my arm would feel like, like I couldn't tolerate hanging my arm down more than a couple of minutes. So it was kind of, we had to build up that tolerance. And then I also had percutaneous pins to in each finger, which basically it's a long steel pin holding all your bones together. So we really couldn't do much with those. And it was just kind of like pass a range of motion with my wrist trying to use to have the blood circulating again, once the pins were removed, then it was constant splinting and casting day and nighttime to start training my fingers to pull down and the flexion. And that was incredibly painful to get through that and it was just a lot of like, basic function. Now it wasn't a brain injury. But because I had nerves completely severed. There was like basic things I couldn't even do with my right hand like I would go to do it and nothing would happen. And it was incredibly frustrating early on, like it was like I would try to grab something or pick up something and it's like I couldn't I couldn't even do it. There was no coordination at all. So that was the very early stages of rehab.
Greg Hamlin:That's crazy. I
Matthew Yehling:go ahead, Matt. I was just gonna comment. So as you're beginning the the rehab process you know, this is obviously workers compensation podcast, you know, so part of me wants to go into the what's the what was the experience like dealing with your employer? When were you first notified or started you know, there's always a we would talk about an investigation of the claim you know, so it's interesting talking to you you know years removed from this but what what was your experience going through that work comp process with your employer with the administrator that administrators claim let's hear a little bit about that. Yeah, that's a good bad indifferent tell us tell us that we don't love the fact
Joshua Shutts:fortunately for me there wasn't too much bad which I can I will get into you know, parts that I wish would have been a little better but an early on it was phenomenal. My employer who they were basically like a second family to me I actually we're all still in church together. They made sure that I was still getting my pay the one of the CO owners of the business actually drove down the that weekend and hung out with me all day now this is three three and a half four hours away from home hung out with me watch football make sure I was okay. Make sure that like wanted to be eyes and be an advocate for me before like my case manager nurses were introduced because actually had two case manager nurses and they actually came in maybe two days later. I mean, everything moves fast. I mean, before I even got home, I was already getting phone calls. It was it was overwhelming, because I was like, you know, we're getting close to the holiday. So I wasn't thinking about any of that. I was just like, I gotta get back home. But they, they made sure everything was set up. They made sure that when I got home, we were getting rehab set up, we were getting transportation set up because I wasn't allowed to drive my car because there was a stick shift. They were trying to figure that out. They were making sure I had wound care nurses come to where I live to take care of me because I was still I went home with open wounds. They OSHA was flexible. They actually interviewed everybody at the warehouse, but then they actually came to me. The gentleman sat with me for about two hours, just was asking all the questions that OSHA asked, you know, they wanted to know what went what happened, what went wrong, what could have been prevented. All that all that good stuff. And then I always joke with people, it was kind of sticker shock when I got the helicopter bill in the mail. And he came to me and it was$57,000. And I was like, Oh, I called my Yeah, like I'm in the wrong business. I called my, my client, my nurse, my workers comp nurse. And she was like I'm on it, she made sure from that day forward, I never got a single bill in the mail. Again, she assured me everything was covered. So the initially on the first few months, everything was was great.
Greg Hamlin:That's great to hear. I mean, I think nobody plans to have a work injury. And it can be so confusing, because it's a very statutory all driven process, that sometimes, you know, it can be a little bit painful for the person who's going through it. And we hope that it's not. And that's, of course, our goal. And one of the things that we're trying to do here on the podcast is changed some of that. So I'm glad on your end that. You know, while it might have been new, you had a great employer who was willing to step up and sit with you through that and be there for you on it. Any any parts that were difficult for you or challenges.
Joshua Shutts:Yes. So the difficulties started presenting when I was a few months into it. And I was warned early on that the further you go into your case, people are going to start getting tired of you. And I started to experience that later on. And I don't know if like they were tired of me or they were just whatever's going on. But what,
Matthew Yehling:what people what, what people just just to clarify what, what what people were tired of you like just
Joshua Shutts:all I'm trying to think of what the case manager Merton nurse said early on, she said that, you know, you're different parties involved mainly on the medical side, more than the adjusters we're gonna get tired of like seeing me all the time. But where I ran into the real issue was, we had AIG, and then I had, you know, Brooks rehab into my surgeon and where I started and started getting frustration is I went through a cycle, I would have surgery, because that multiple surgeries than the healing time. And then I'd have this big gap to get back in the rehab. And it was the middle company in between everybody that would drag their feet. So I would end up I would have the surgeon saying he needs to get back to the headstand therapy. Now, I would have broke saying we need to get him now. But then the middle company wouldn't get me authorized right away. And what ended up happening is I had the first issue is when I had an artificial joint and my ring finger because unfortunately the rehab wasn't working because the joint was so misaligned the middle joint that it was becoming very painful, that they decided we're going to cut it out, put a carbon fiber in, the goal was that would get almost full range of motion of that finger like a normal finger. What an actually ended up happening is I sat at home for a couple of weeks before I got authorized to go back to the hand therapist. And by the time she saw me, the whole joint locked up from scar tissue and I ended up getting zero mobility out of the joint. So it basically it's just holding my finger together. And then later that year, the same thing happened with my my pinkie right they ended up fusing it completely. So that was the part that I wish it would have went smoother was getting my visits authorized a lot of times and the further I went into my rehab the longer it was taking to get my visits authorized to get more rehab and that's where it started getting frustrating for me.
Greg Hamlin:I think that's really kind of rare borrowed
Matthew Yehling:of Uh, I mean, you're in that rare boat of injuries where you're not really in a formulary that traditional with that with the amputation. So there's. So that's kind of the unfortunate reality of your circumstances. And, man, it's probably insightful for those dealing with these types of claims is, lets you speed up that process, how do we get that care more quickly? How do we ensure that injured employees get the best outcome? And I think it's a quick response to this the early identification of those things, and, you know, it's often, you know, we hang up thing, you know, things get hung up on a technicality or something well, you know, talks on this formulary or it's outside of that, and, and in reality, it's like, well, you know, this is this is all kind of outside of that scope. So it's really sorry, sorry to hear some of that. And I think, you know, the story continues there, right. So you had a lot of rehab. And at some point, you know, you've already indicated we know where the story ends, but when did you decide to transition from your work or the work you were doing and to more as a rehab level of work and go going into, specifically occupational therapy.
Joshua Shutts:So when what I was doing, when I first started my occupational therapy, with my hand therapist, I was one on one for a long time. And then when she determined that I was appropriate to be in a group, because in the outpatient setting more now than it was then it's usually a few patients to one therapist. So when I got to that level, I started getting paired up with other patients that were kind of had similar injuries to what I had, or were kind of like, walking through what I was walking through. And so it was very rewarding for me to, to just talk to them and inspire each other to push through and get stronger and stronger. And you know, and then some time passed, and I was like, you know, I think it'd be kind of cool to go for school to school for this. And my hand therapist, who I still talk to today, was my biggest advocate, she's like, Yeah, you should, you should definitely go for this. The other side of that is that a couple of doctors that were like, now, you probably can't physically handle that, let alone even drive your stick shift again, which I did, by the way. Um, and so I just curved it for a while, I was just like, Yeah, whatever. We'll just see what I can do with myself now. And then, in 2019, I was at a landmark conference in Orlando, Florida, and a single mother told her story about starting a business. And I remember looking at my best friend at a time, and I was like, well, she's, what's my excuse? You know, she went back to school and did all this. Why? Why can I go back to school make this happen? I remember where I was, I was standing in the millennium mall. I called my mom. I talked to my mom, I just can't, I can't shake this, I gotta go back to school. And she's like, all right. She's like, you know, we support you, and we'll love you through it. So I was broke. I mean, what I'm what I mean, I was broke, I was living paycheck to paycheck, I was renting, I was living off my church's food pantry. And I saw that I had to take just a few prerequisites to apply for the program. So I charged it all on a credit card, because I'm like, because at that point, I didn't have my settlement yet. So that's kind of where the journey began. And then before actually started school, I ended up doing my settlement, and I did my FC E with Josh shooty, who has been on this podcast, and he cleared me to chase this dream. And I went after it and did the school for a couple years. And I've been with Brooks rehab for exactly one year yesterday. Now.
Greg Hamlin:That's amazing. So I mean, just the story from going through what you went through to helping other people go through it, I have to imagine as you're working with people who are recovering, and you're showing them what they can achieve. It's gotta be inspiring for people who are who are having the chance to work with you.
Joshua Shutts:Now, yeah, absolutely. I because I work on the stroke and neuro unit, but you know, few times a month, I get a patient that has a traumatic hand injury, or they have no sensation in our hand because that's a whole nother part of the journey. I had to go through with the nerve damage and it's very rewarding to be like, Hey, I get that part of your injury, like here's all the things that I had to do through therapy and now I could show you the same things.
Greg Hamlin:That's fantastic. I had heard when I watched a clip that Brooks rehab was sharing with you that you have your a little bit tick tock famous, and so I have we have to talk about it. So talk to me a little bit about how one you decided to upload some videos on tick tock and I know a lot of people think dancing, but there's lots of other content on on tick tock, obviously, but how did you decide to go down that path? And what were some of the things that you've shown, you've shared with people through that source media source?
Joshua Shutts:Yeah, absolutely. So I was actually a student at the time when I made the channel. And I knew very, very early on in school that I wanted to work in neuro occupational therapy for Brookes rehab like that, there was no backup plan. That was the direction I wanted to go. And the main reason for that is my dad is a stroke survivor, who was also a patient of Brookes rehab. So you can say it runs in the family. And seeing the things he struggled with what a self care tasks and things that I struggled with early on with my hand injury was self care tasks that was like, you know, what, I think it'd be pretty cool to make a channel of showing people ways that they can make adaptive equipment at home with things laying around the house, or that would be like 1015 bucks worth of materials that, you know, at a local store. And so I did adaptive devices, but I also did like sensory items as well. And just became popular, a lot of my classmates thought it was cool. And so I just kept making more videos of ideas I got from other people and things that I had made for myself.
Matthew Yehling:I think it's incredible. And I went on Tik Tok, and I went on your Facebook page and, and watched some of those. And I noticed there was another big announcement to coming later this year, right? You posted it on your Facebook page. I'll let you say what it was. Congratulations in advance.
Joshua Shutts:Oh, yes. So about two to three weeks from now my beautiful wife and I'd be welcoming a baby girl.
Greg Hamlin:I'm so excited for you. Is this your first Josh? It is. So when we were trying to schedule this episode, Josh had said I was pushing out the date a little bit because, you know, we usually err just a couple of months. And he's like, Well, that could be okay, just gonna depend on the due date and the ultrasound and and having had I have six kids. So knowing how your life is about to change. I said, we've got to get him in before we get anywhere near that date. Because his life he's gonna be so busy with that. But I will tell you having a daughter that's 18 all the way down to a son who's 18 months, that there is no greater joy. So you congratulations, for sure.
Joshua Shutts:Thank you. Yeah, we're definitely an excited to
Matthew Yehling:tell us what it was like going back to school? And was there a little bit of reward with like disproving some other people, you know that kind of limited? You or or gave you some maybe misinformation?
Joshua Shutts:Yeah, so going going back to school, which actually started in fall of 2020. So that presented a whole nother set of challenges, because we were very limited in what we could even do with all the restrictions that were going on at the time, but it to be able to do get through the classes early on. And I didn't say anything at first, but then a lot of my classmates started noticing my hand, they're like, wait, wait a minute, what's going on here? And so I started telling them, what I went through, and they're like, holy cow, you want to be a therapist? And I said, Absolutely. And it was challenging at first. And my wife will tell you that there are a lot of times I was like, you know, I I don't know if I can actually physically handle this. I'm not sure because once I actually started doing the physical part of the rehab, you know, it was it there was some times I was sore. But then when I actually got into my clinicals and actually started doing it, and I started doing it more, not only was I proving to myself wrong, but I was proving doubters I had in my life at the time wrong that like yeah, I can absolutely do this. And just because, you know, I had some limitations. My right hand didn't mean I couldn't help people live a better quality of life and I but I had way more people pushing me forward to keep going and going because there were many times I was just like, Man, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. And they were pushing me like no, you got to keep going. You got to keep going. And then Interesting enough, my ch T ended up being one of my professors in school. So we were not friends at that time, but I was oh he was one of my patients and now she's you know, teaching me but the experience was incredible because then I did my final clinical and internship with Brooks rehab in an outpatient setting. And once it started catching fire that I was a former patient, it was just like, it was just like I was excited to continue to show up every day because like, you know, having patients that were wanting to know about what I walked through when I'm trying to help them walk through what they're getting through, it was just, it's hard to describe that feeling. You know?
Greg Hamlin:That's amazing. And I imagine that feeling and I, from what I understand for you, for your profession, you have to pass boards to so you go through your school, but you still have boards that you got to take to become certified. Is that right?
Joshua Shutts:Yes. So, and that was an interesting season, because during my final internship, I was not working at all. So you know that that was a lot of pressure on me, because it's like, we're on one income right now. And I graduated in May of, of, I'm trying to think of your 22. And then I took my national boards in June, and I waited about 15 days before I got my results. But the crazy part is, is the day after I took my boards. The director of rehab reached out to me it was like, Hey, you want to you want to come shadow tomorrow shattered unit? And I was like, Yeah, sure. And I was like, kinda like, empty, like I was drained. I didn't know what to think I was like, Well, I just took my boards. But yeah, sure. Well, they ended up interviewing me while I was there. And then they're like, we'll get back to you know, we'll talk. And then I went out of state, I was up in Maggie Valley, North Carolina, and I get the phone call and the email that they offered me a position. And I had not gotten my boards yet. So then, needless to say, next couple of weeks, I was stressed out all the time, because I had a job offer. I had a start date on my birthday. And I had no board results. So. So real quick about that. My wife was like, Hey, why don't you check your desk dashboard. I was like, I just checked them this morning. They're not up. She says she already knew that my results are posted because she logged in, but I didn't know. And she's like, Oh, go ahead and check and see if they're there. And sure enough, I log in and I just I lost it because I couldn't believe I passed an attorney. Here we go.
Greg Hamlin:That had to feel I have not been in a position but that had to feel amazing. Like you had climbed something you know from from going to where you're low of losing your fingers to being in a place where you not only went back to school, but you're back actually helping people at the very place you received your your treatment had to be that had to be a special moment.
Joshua Shutts:Yeah, and I never forgot the people that helped me through it. Mainly, I'm pretty sure she retired now. Her name was Barry, Marybeth Michel, for AIG. And she was like my main contact from day one. And she was absolutely incredible. She advocated for me so much made sure things got covered my expenses, because I was driving to that hospital multiple times a month for months. But she was one of the first people I called to share that I did it. And I remember she started crying on the phone, because she was just so happy to see that I went from what, who she first met to now and like I emailed the surgeon, it's like I just wanted everybody to know I taught called shootie. Like, it was just like, full circle. Like it was just an unbelievable moment to when that happened.
Matthew Yehling:And so what we what advice. I mean, it's a wonderful story. And that's why Greg and I wanted to talk to you. And, you know, you know, we watched the video that Brooks had put out, we watched some of your tic tac stuff, like we alluded to, and then, you know, the story is excellent, you know, where you've come from is excellent. What advice would you give others, you know, going through a similar challenge.
Joshua Shutts:The biggest thing is to you know, advocate for yourself, because, you know, you have to stay on top of things to make sure you know, you're getting the best treatment that things are going the way they go and communication because that was one of the things also dealt with, as you know, more times than not, I would go to these doctor's appointment, and they were looking at me like what are you doing down here? And I was like, Well, I just drove along way. So let's figure this out. But just, you know, really, it's everybody's heard his saying, you know, don't give up, never give up, you know, the Jimmy V Foundation and I and I, I clung on to that and I just knew that. I just had to keep going to have to stay tenacious, like there were many times where, like, I was just very hard on myself and I was very down but I knew I had a network of people that I could go to so I was trying to not bury my feelings, not just kind of seclude myself. It was like lean on the people that were there for me and also find people that were going through When I was going through, like I actually found other people that had in hand injuries and I was like, you know, so how did how did you do it? And I, I always have an example of when I was in school, I met a gentleman that works for a big prosthetic company nationwide. And he actually had an amputation from about mid forearm down. And I was like, hey, you know what, what happened? And he actually wanted to know what happened to me more than I wanted to know what happened, and which I thought was very interesting. We had the same similar injury, except he ended up having an infection a lost part of his arm, but like when he was young, I was like, what are some things that you did to help with this, because like, I was still struggling with a lot of mental battles. And so like, it was just finding somebody to hold you accountable. But you know, what, a lot of things sound cliche, but just keeping your eye on the prize. So like, for me, it was like, I've got to get through school, I can't let this stop me from getting through school. Like, I want this so bad, I'm not going to give up on it this time. As far as like the medical workers comp side, just making sure that you're in constant communication with everybody involved, so that everybody's on the same page, so that nothing falls through the cracks, you know, and really utilize your representatives and your adjusters because they're there to help you. And there was I had questions constantly. And, you know, they're there for me. 24/7 you know, thankfully, and answered everything that I had. And just, that's really the best advice I can give us just no matter what, just don't give up.
Greg Hamlin:I like that's fantastic. Josh, I I love that. I've got to say you inspire me seeing anytime I see somebody go through something terrible and turn it into something beautiful. You know, I can't I can't help but be inspired. I think there's the word beauty out of ashes, right? Where you go through something that's so difficult and yet you probably don't become the person you are today without with a without that experience and think of all the people whose lives are touched and you're able to help because of that. So amazing. One of the things that I like to do at the end of every podcast is for each season is throw something into the universe that's positive, because I felt like there's so much negativity and I'm gonna do my small part by putting some good vibes out there. So this year, I wanted to end each episode by asking our guests to share something that makes them smile. So that's my question for you today, Josh, is if you don't mind sharing with our listeners, something that makes you smile.
Matthew Yehling:stuff for me.
Joshua Shutts:It's honestly, my wife and I'll try to not get choked up, you know, like she, she put up with so much baloney door during all, like the schooling error thing in my hardheadedness and like many, many late nights of studying and like, just seeing her smile makes me smile. Like she's She's so innocent. She's so sweet. She's, she's honestly the most selfless person I've ever met. And just really just, just seeing her smile is all I need. You know, it's all the motivation, I mean, and now having a baby girl coming. I mean, there's just no complaints. Like, I mean, like, I can't imagine a better life. Really. I mean, yeah, there's days that aren't the best. But I'm like, at the end of the day, I'm like, I wouldn't trade this life for anything. I wouldn't trade the journey for anything. Because if I hadn't gone through that journey with my accident, I could probably guarantee you I would not be a therapist right now. And I don't even know if I would have met my wife.
Greg Hamlin:That's amazing. Well, I am smiling now. So you, you've done a good job. I just want to thank you for your time, Josh. I know you're busy. I know we had to do a couple of things to shuffle some things around, especially with your daughter coming soon. And I wish you nothing but the best and remind our listeners to do write, think differently. And don't forget to care. And that's it for this episode, folks. We hope you'll join us in the future as our episodes air every other week. And you can check us out on the off weeks on our website at Burke and comp to see our blog. Thanks everybody. And we'll see you later.