In this episode, ADJUSTED welcomes Carl Van, President & CEO of International Insurance Institute. Carl discusses some strategies and techniques to effectively negotiate throughout the life of a claim.
Season 6 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin and guest co-host Mike Gilmartin, Area Vice President, Sales & Distribution, for Key Risk.
Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to marketing@berkindcomp.com
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at camrunyan9@gmail.com
In this episode, ADJUSTED welcomes Carl Van, President & CEO of International Insurance Institute. Carl discusses some strategies and techniques to effectively negotiate throughout the life of a claim.
Season 6 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin and guest co-host Mike Gilmartin, Area Vice President, Sales & Distribution, for Key Risk.
Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to marketing@berkindcomp.com
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at camrunyan9@gmail.com
Hello everyone and welcome to adjusted. I'm your host Greg Hanlon coming at you from Sweet Home Alabama and Berkeley industrial comp. And with me is my co host today, Mike Gilmartin. Mike, you want to introduce yourself?
Mike Gilmartin:Yeah. Hello everybody. My good Martin with Kiera is based out of Greensboro, North Carolina and Greg, this is the nicest weather day we've had the entire year. It's like 75 and sunny. So I'm a little sad and sad, but happy to be here.
Greg Hamlin:Yeah, it's been miserably hot in Alabama. So we're ready for fall for sure. With us today, our special guests is Carl Van. And he is the CEO of the international insurance institute and author of the book negotiation skills for claims professionals. Carl, how are you doing?
Carl Van:Do great. Thank you for inviting me today.
Greg Hamlin:And you're out of New Orleans,
Carl Van:New Orleans, Louisiana.
Greg Hamlin:So you're probably ready for the fall as well.
Carl Van:It's been a little hot here. But fortunately, we've had 100% humidity, which makes it nice. All right.
Greg Hamlin:That's great. Well, Carl, we're excited to have you with us. We had you on our podcast a couple of years ago, talking about the eight characteristics of an awesome adjuster. And I still use your book with every one of our new employees. I felt like it's a great a great jumping off point. But the way I first ran into you was a seminar you did for a former employer of mine on negotiations. And so I thought it would be really great to dive a little deeper in that. And we haven't necessarily spent a lot of time on that on the podcast ever. So we're excited to have you talk to us a little bit about this. Before we get down that road. For those who maybe didn't catch the first episode. How did you end up in the industry, Carl?
Carl Van:Well, I knew I was going to be in the industry my whole life. Seven years old, I used to pray my little adjuster bet. Great claims person. Well, I'll tell you, I even though my degrees in insurance, I did kind of fall into it. Like the rest of us at the time, my wife was a phone operator at 20th century insurance. Now it's 21st. But then 20. And for the sake of being able to drive into work together, I applied for a job at 20th century, I didn't have my degree then it took me nine years at night to get my degree so they wouldn't, wouldn't hire me as an adjusted but they did hire me as a photocopy operator. So my first job in plannings was to operate the photocopy machine in the classroom. So very proud of that. And that's that's how it all got started.
Greg Hamlin:You know, I love that. And that's one of the things I think I'm trying to teach my kids, I've got one in college and on five more for some crazy. But one of the things that I think I've noticed with some of the recent college grads is their assumption is that they're going to graduate and be like the CEO within three years. And sometimes it starts out in the copy room. And you know, look at where you are now.
Carl Van:Yeah, it really did. I mean, I'm just I'm glad they gave me that opportunity. And, you know, I'm glad they saw some potential in me after why it took a while. But something that's so yeah, that's great.
Greg Hamlin:Well, outside of settlements, where else is negotiations critical on claims? I think we always jump to that let's place we start thinking when we think settlement, we're thinking about the end of the claim. But I think there's probably some other areas where negotiations critical in the claims process, no matter what kind of claims you're handling? Yeah,
Carl Van:for sure. When we teach on negotiation classes, I'll ask him, when does the negotiation process start and stuff he will say when to make an offer. And we have to talk about that as well actually, it starts at the very first conversation, all your interaction with your customer throughout the claim is going to affect your credibility, you know, when it comes time to settle, it's not a fact, by the time you tell the president, here's how much we're paying, we're gonna pay this much money, all of your opportunity to gain the trust is already over. So when we talk about as we talked about, using negotiation skills throughout the claim, and probably the number one would be just gaining cooperation, you ask somebody, Hey, I need you to fill out a medical authorization form. And they say, No, I'm not filling it out. And usually responses are not paying you over the head with the claims hammer. And so what we talk about is, but there's negotiation there, there's an aspect of negotiation there, when you ask them to do something, and they don't want to convince them to change their mind. And so the same skills that apply to selling a claim applying to influencing someone to change their mind. And matter of fact, we use the exact same steps. So there's five steps in negotiation process, and we show justice how to use those five steps in a number of situations, not only to settle the claim, but like I said, sometimes just asking people to do something they don't want to do. The point of negotiation is to change someone's mind and influence someone. And that's what's really about without them making feel like you push them around. And that's that's an important element because claims person thinks to get cooperation when they say that if you don't sign we won't pay you and then when a person says only says final sign the stupid form, they'll think they have cooperation. But that's not cooperation that's pushing people around, that's getting to do what you want them to do. Cooperation is where you actually change their mind and get them to agree that it was the right thing to do. So those skills transfer, you know, in a number of ways, interpersonal skills ways, for any claims person.
Mike Gilmartin:Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think it's something Greg talks about a ton. It's something that I when I had claims, folks, we talk all the time, if you're not going to develop a relationship, or at least get an understanding of where somebody's coming from, and develop that rapport. Everything else in the claims process is harder. I mean, it just it to your point, you're not getting cooperation, you're basically asking people to do things I don't wanna say under duress, but it makes a big difference. And it's the same in any relationship, right? I mean, if you develop a solid relationship with somebody, and they trust you, and they feel like you have their best interests at heart, it makes things like negotiating a lot easier. And the biggest thing that I've also found, and I also took your your course, when I was at my prior employer, which was the same as Greg's, so you came to see us, but understanding the motivations of people as well. And you can learn that throughout the life of your claim of what's important to them, what matters to them, what motivates them, because all of those things play an important part, going off of that, what is the importance of planning prior to having negotiations with someone, when you get to that step of a claim? Yeah.
Carl Van:Because that really is an important part, too, like you just said, to know what angle you're going to take right now is this person, you know, a very emotional person, because upset about what happened to them? Well, then maybe, you know, let me plan up the fact that I'm going to talk about a little empathy, and I'm very sorry, that's happened to you. And that kind of thing. You know, if you know, someone's only interested in the dollar amount, then maybe lay out your case a little bit more of exactly how you got to this particular figure, negotiating with attorneys, we get into that quite a bit. The very best claims negotiators I've ever met or monitored, are ones where they actually plan out what they're going to say, they'll actually write it out. Here's what I'm going to say, to make my point about this issue. You know, here's what I'm gonna say about this. And they actually write it out word for word, they kind of almost have that conversation in their mind in advance. So with with high level negotiations, like attorneys, the more planning the better with, you know, individual injured people, injured workers, you know, anybody, you know, even if you're selling a total US car or something like that, the best thing to do is is to plan out how you how you're going to start with this, this is this is all business or, you know, some empathy required, you know, something along those lines.
Greg Hamlin:Yeah. And I've seen that a lot crawl on the opposite end, where we figure out what our authority is, we give it to our attorney, and then you know, we move on. And we haven't really put together a plan of where are we starting with this? Because if we don't know where we're starting, we don't know where we're ending up. And if we don't talk about the reasons why we're supporting the case we're making for whatever it is we want to negotiate. That makes it challenging. I know that's one of the things that you're big on is asking why to yourself, and also to them in the negotiation process. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Carl Van:Yeah. One of the Maxim's we teach is that people will consider what you have to say, to the exact degree you demonstrate you understand where they're coming from? And what does that really understand where can people come from It's empathy. And claims people might unincluded, I feel guilty when when I was selling claims that we tend to want to argue with people, we tend to want to show them that they're wrong. Let me show you, you're incorrect. And what we've learned now over the years is, you're actually better off just showing could be understand them. So the very simple example I just gave you with someone just want to sign a form. You ask them when we sign the form, they say no. And they say, you ask why Why don't want to send the form. And they say, because my neighbor these in a second law school said don't sign another person will do is argue, well, you know, what does your neighbor know? And why did he tell you that? Well, we talked about taking the time to acknowledge that, you know what, if you talk to your neighbor, you respect his opinion, and he gave you the advice not to sign anything, I can understand why you would want it, that's perfectly reasonable. Now, here's why we need this form sign, here's what it is. And here's what it says. And the idea there is that people will tend to pay attention a little bit more, once you've shown them you understand their point of view, but you can't show them you understand the point of view. If you don't ask them why. So in any situation, we're going to pay you $90,000 It's not enough. Can you tell me why? Knowing that you're going to ask why. And knowing that whatever they say you're gonna acknowledge that you understand it, not that you agree with it. Not that they're right. But you understand where they're coming from, gives them the opportunity to change the mind without them feeling stupid. And that's really the point you want to want to influence someone to change the mind without them having to pay any penalty to do so. But when you argue with people, you making them admit that they're wrong, change their mind. And so we show them that you can bypass that you don't have to prove anyone wrong. You only have to prove yourself right. So asking why is the first step in any negotiation process because you can't show people you understand where they're coming from if you don't ask them where they're coming from.
Mike Gilmartin:Or oh, this is I need to apply this to my home life because I I've taken your class and I wrote your book. But for somehow I skip this step, when I'm arguing with my wife, I just want to be right versus asking why I'm showing empathy. But I'm reminded of that fact, because I negotiate for a living. But you know, I seem to skip that on personal levels, which, again, I agree with you, 100%. It's all about empathy. If people feel heard, and they feel seen, and they feel like you understand where they're coming from, you're gonna be in a much better place, which is a huge deal that I think we all need to remind ourselves of sometimes. Speaking of that, right? I mean, people, people think of negotiations as an argument, and to a point, it is an argument, but that word has a little bit of negative connotation to it. But a lot of the things you mentioned earlier, Carl come in is there's a lot of emotion involved. There's a lot of emotion involved, and work comp claims. There's a lot of emotion involved in how people are treated. And a lot of times negotiations, people argue with reasons or emotions versus arguing with facts. And so, you know, I just wanted to kind of get your idea of what is the big difference when it comes to negotiation arguing with kind of a reason or an emotion versus arguing with facts? And what how important that is?
Carl Van:Sure. And by the way, just so you know, I get accused of being a marriage counselor in every class, I teach people. I'm not a marriage counselor, but they do understand some of the concepts are overlapping.
Mike Gilmartin:It does apply if you listen. Yeah.
Carl Van:Yeah. The The difference is, when you ask someone, why is this figure I'm giving you enough land, we're gonna pay you 68,000? Why isn't enough? Okay? Whatever reason they give you try not to argue with it, acknowledge it. We don't really say argue with the facts, we say, argue the facts. So what we're trying to say is, rather than argue with with their reasons, you want to present the facts of the case. So you ask them like, Hey, we're gonna pay you, you know,$40,000. That's not enough. Can you tell me why? Yeah, because they got nowhere else got$100,000. And he only had a stubbed toe. Rather than arguing Well, what kind of injury was it? What was his disability rating? How long was he off work? And and now that if you do that, now, the two of you both talking about a claim, neither one of you know anything about, just acknowledge it and get back to the issue. And so say, you know, what, if the person in the warehouse got 100,000? For step two, I can certainly understand your point of view, that does make sense. Would you agree that it probably makes more sense for us to talk about your claim and your injury and how this affected you, and not get distracted by the person in the warehouse? We agree with that? Sure. Okay. Let me explain to you how I got to my figure. And so you're not arguing with the facts, you're arguing or executing, you're not arguing with the reasons you're arguing the facts. So it just means presenting the facts, as opposed to presenting why someone's wrong about something.
Greg Hamlin:I think that's huge. And I think you hit on a few things there that I really value, and use all the time. And one is just remembering not to get pulled in to the emotions of the situation. And I think one of the things I've learned through my time in claims and being a parent of six kids, which is crazy, is slowing down too. And just remembering to slow down. And think before I say something, because a lot of times when we get down these rabbit holes, it's because we just we didn't slow down, or we didn't take time to listen to what they really had to say, before we got pulled in. I know one of the things you are really, really big on is gaining cooperation. And we've already talked about that a little bit that the negotiations actually start at they want first time you talk to them. Talk to us a little bit about gaining cooperation a little bit more. Sure.
Carl Van:It's part of the five steps that we teach. So again, the first step is asking why again, something very simple. Hey, I need you to send in receipts, okay? Something if you want reimbursement on receipts together send receipts. And you ask them, will you please send me the receipts? If they say yes, negotiations over? Say no, you got to ask why can you tell me why you don't want to send receipts? The person says, because you're just going to use it against me, something's crazy like that. What are typical response would be is why would we do that? And we start arguments person. And all we want to do is just turn it around a little bit. Look, if you don't want to send them receipts, because you're concerned, we're going to use them against you, I can understand that. That makes sense. The purpose of us getting the receipts is to verify exactly what you spent so you can get every single penny you're entitled to. So again, it's just you know, I understand your point of view. Let's get back to the issue at hand. Another example I've heard recently, an adjuster asked a customer to sign a medical authorization form. And these workers said no, I'm not doing that. Why not? Because I was told I wouldn't have to sign anything. Of course, what the adjuster asked, well, who told you that? And now, who told them that it takes them 15 minutes to track down this person named Stephanie? And then comes up to Stephanie says, Hey, did you tell this guy who wouldn't have taken assigned anything? Well, guess what? Stephanie says no. So now it just gets back on the phone calls up the customer and says, Well, I talked to Stephanie, she said she didn't say that. And now you just call the guy. I would bypass all that time. I would just say you know what, if you got told that you weren't going to have to sign anything, then I can understand why you would want to that makes perfect sense. You expect us to keep our promises. I want to apologize. You got the wrong information. I'm very sorry. About that this form is required. There's no way for us to get your medical records without it's some I'm sorry, you got the wrong information. If you sign it, send it to me. I'll work hard to make sure you get a fair settlement. But I'm certainly sorry, you got the wrong information. And that's what I would probably do, I'd probably do that, instead of running around trying to prove that no one actually told the customer that you can't prove to someone they heard something wrong.
Mike Gilmartin:Yeah, that's very true. And I really, really like we all spend way too much time trying to prove each other wrong and be right versus just have moving on with the situation, because the way you described is just so much easier on so many levels. One of the biggest things, obviously, in building rapport and developing relationship and just communication with human beings is being able to see how the other person is reacting to what you're telling them, right. Like, I tell people all the time, there's someone say to me, like they're mad at me. I said, Well, how do you know that? They're like, what's it, I can read it in the text? And like, we have no clue what that person meant by what they said, because it's something they wrote to you, right? And so a lot of our negotiations happen over the phone or happening in a setting where we can't see the person we're talking to? Do you have any recommendations? Or is there any way to pick up on nonverbal communication? While you're not being able to see the person? Is there anything you can do better in order to maybe pick up on some of the nonverbal?
Carl Van:That's real hard? The number one, of course, always is tone? So when they answer that question, you say, Would you would you give me Would you let me ask you some questions, and they say, Sure. That's it. I don't know about this, I don't trust you. I'm gonna go along until you start to deceive me. So tone is always the number one, the number two, one would be pauses that people have to think about what you're asking, Well, did you show up on time to work that day of the accident, and you get a big long pause? They're thinking they're trying to right now, should I tell the truth? So why should I? Why is this person gonna ask him is what would be really important? And so pauses? Before very simple questions is a clue. Another clue is if they keep repeating questions for very simple, okay. Do you normally work Monday to Fridays? And they say, Do I normally work Monday to Friday? Yes, that's feeding very simple questions. They're very concerned that they're there. They're either thinking about lying, or they're worried that you're going to trap them in something. So that's a clue. And also, when people's tone of voice always goes up at the end of the sentence, some people that just do that, but if it's not normal for them, if you're asking somebody questions, were you injured? When How long were you that the doctors you know what happened? And this and they answer questions normally, but then you start asking questions like, Okay, well, did you look at the gauge before you turn it on? And then they start their tone changes, maybe their tone goes up at the end of the sentence or something? You know, that's an indication, again, maybe maybe they're concerned or they lying, or they think you're lying to them. So tone again, tone is always the big one. The second one would be pauses. And then the third would be always repeating questions that are very simple questions that you're asked.
Greg Hamlin:I think those are all healthcare tools. And it is challenging, because in today's world, we do so much of our work on the phone. And I wonder, with the changes that are happening with technology, if we will see more video, video chats, you know, but I think we're still probably a little ways away for that from that time. I know in the negotiation process, there are lots of things that get talked about a lot. We have a wide audience, some of them are very experienced, others maybe haven't done very much negotiating at all. One of the things we hear about a lot is bidding against yourself. And so could you explain what that is? And then maybe talk about is there ever a time that is okay.
Carl Van:Yeah, bidding against yourself is where you increase your settlement figure without the other person coming down. So you're saying I'm going to pay 60,100, and you go to 70, and they don't come down, and then you go to 80k, or you go to 75, so you're not bidding against yourself. So it's a very, very good rule of thumb. There's one exception, which most people don't know, the exception is if you can stay in your conversation. So what that means is, if you can get the other person to talk about your number, rather than their number, it's perfectly okay to bid against yourself. So if I say I'm gonna pay you 75,000, they say, Well, I want 100 will tell me why 75,000 isn't right. Well, $75,000 isn't right, because this, this and this, okay, I'll tell you what, based on what we just talked about, I'll increase my 70 to 85. No, 85 still isn't enough because this and this, okay, let me alter it to 90 I can increase my settlement figures as long as the other person isn't bringing up their number anymore. Okay. And that's called staying in your conversation. So if you can get the other person to stop talking about them number and only talk about your number you can bid against yourself all day long. Matter of fact, I would rather I would rather bet against myself rather than sit there and try and bring somebody down. If I'm at 50 and 300. You know, I don't want to try to bring them down from 350. Okay, I don't have that. I don't have 300. But I got more than 50. So if I can get them to talk about 50 Even if they're complaining about even if The same $50,000 isn't nearly enough, I'm still winning, because they're talking about 15. And I'm talking about 300. So if they give that up, if they stop talking about 50, and you go to 60, and you complain about that, you go to 65, and you're still not happy, believe it or not, you're still winning, because they're not thinking about 300 Anything. So not bidding against yourself, it's a very, very good rule of thumb. With one exception, if you can stand your conversation and get the other person to stop talking about the number, you can bid against yourself all day long method, I wouldn't want to remind the person oh, by the way, I went up to 60. So you have to come down from 300. You know, why would I? Why would I want to remind the person that that's where they were at
Mike Gilmartin:least a lot of times meaning this goes in our next question a little bit. But I mean, demands from folks generally aren't based in facts. They're just based. And I think, oh, this or this is what I want. And so it's really a number to your point, that's not even worth acknowledging or talking about, because it's not based in the facts of the case, or what what you're looking at. So that goes into my next question. And it's something that people always say, Well, I don't want to start negotiations until I request the demand and see where they're at. But what are your thoughts about requesting a demand before going into settlement negotiations?
Carl Van:Well, one of the things we do try to teach the judges you depending on the demand, depending on someone else to tell you that guy that claim, and by the way, they haven't put in nearly the effort you put into it that's kind of just making up a number. So what difference make as a matter of fact, what we teach what here's a typical call adjuster calls up, an attorney says, Okay, let's sell your case. And the attorney says you get our demand 440,000. And it just there's no way this thing's worth 400,000 No, yeah, why not? And then they spent a half hour talking about$400,000. And then at the end of a half hour, the adjusted funding says, Well, look, we can only pay 50. The problem is you just spent a half hour talking about someone else's number, which is not your conversation. So the right way to deal with that would be hey, let's sell your clients case. Did you get our demand for 40,000? Yeah, I got demand. But we need to talk about the value of the case and the value 50,000? Here's why. It's literally Why are you going to talk some about another thing meet up when you can be talking about a number that you've actually spent time evaluating. And so a lot of the very best negotiators, I'll tell you, I got lots of advice on them. So treat the word demand like a tennis ball, you have a tennis ball, you throw it against the wall, what happens it comes back, is it every single time the attorney says demand you say value, or demands 400? I know but I want to talk about the value here. Well, we lower our demand, you keep talking about demands, I'm trying to talk about the value, every single time the attorney says demand, you say value back, it lets the attorney know, okay, I'm not going to be fooled by some really ridiculous number. So going to your question now is I'm not a big fan of asking attorneys for the demand, because it almost implies that the demand has something to do with the value of your case. And that you're going to use that in that value. Well, you shouldn't be doing that you should be evaluating the case, right? separately. Now, a lot of attorneys won't give you the information, you need to evaluate the case until the demand comes in. So that's okay. But I'm not a big fan of asking there. It's been an attorney of what their number is. I mean, it just it shouldn't affect how you evaluate this case. And all it does is give them the upper edge.
Mike Gilmartin:No, I completely agree to something that as with newer adjusters I was worked on, because a lot of times, you know, it's why I needed demand to see where they are. And to your point, it doesn't matter where they are, it matters what the value of your case is. And based on the facts that you have, and the information you have and what you know about the claim. And I also find that every once awhile when somebody gets a demand, and if they're a newer adjuster, they're already flustered because oh, well shoot, we have the value of the claim at 25,000. They're saying they want 200 I like we're this is never going to happen, as opposed to focusing on the value of the case and the value of what it's worth versus just a random number. That's your point. Somebody probably took five minutes to say, Yeah, 200. Sounds good. Let's go with that. So I want to 100% agree with you. I think Greg would, too, on that.
Carl Van:Well, and I think that's why attorneys do that, because it does work. Because I've had a justice working for me asking for authority for 50,000. We went through it all together. Okay, great. Write up. Yes. 50,000. Great, you got it. And then they come back to us, they are going to have to get more authority. Look, I got a demand from nine dogs. And nothing's changed. Absolutely no information has changed other than this number that came in. So I'm not a big fan of this. But I'll tell you, even though some adjusters say, Oh, I don't pay attention to the number, I don't pay attention. I was worked as a consultant with one company, you know what they started doing? Before they just got the demand letter, the manager would blank out how much the demand was for they got all the other information. But the adjustment wasn't allowed to know what the demand was. And they started freaking out. At the same it just to say auto pay attention to that were like, Well, I gotta go to the end is why you're the one who said you don't pay attention. And it just started freaking out. So we secretly depend on it a little bit more. It's almost like we're hoping it's going to come in at something reasonable, but you know, never, never really does. So I'll tell you, I'm a big fan. If I've got everything I need. If I got all the information I need, right the records, employment records, the doctor's records, I've got everything I need. I'm fine with calling up an attorney and saying here's our settlement fee to give me a demand. I don't need your number. I even had attorneys will send you the demand. And I'll tell them I don't I don't need to demand just sending direct. So I'm a real big fan. And you know, I've actually had to just say, well, but what if the attorney would have accepted less? Yeah, like, that's a big mystery, your big attorney would have accepted less? Had you not offered this figure? I think you give me a
Mike Gilmartin:break. That is the argument here. Well, what if they were gonna demand less? When? What in the real world is that ever occurred to anybody? Exactly. That's the good.
Greg Hamlin:And the reality is, we want to do the right thing. So if we owe it, we should pay it. And you know, and so part in my mind, I often think about that, like, you know, if we're sticking to the numbers of what this is valued, and it's rooted in facts, then why should we be waiting? You know, if they were going to take less okay, but you're gonna win? Is that ever gonna happen? You're exactly right on that it's not
Carl Van:gambling. That's a concern. But that's what's keeps. Some people say, like, Well, I gotta know, because what if people are thinking like, yeah, sure, sure. So what? We're not going to cheat anybody? So what if we would have taken less because the value of the claim looks bad?
Greg Hamlin:That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So going down that path a little further, I think you've hit on this on several of the examples that you've given. But Are there words that you would avoid negotiating? I think you said demands one of them. But But what other others out there that you're like, you know, probably stay away from these,
Carl Van:a lot of people will will use the word offer all the time. But most experts say don't use the word offer, because too many people the word offer, we're going to offer you$60,000. To many people that implies here's our starting point. So they'll tell you to use the word, the value of your claim, the settlement value of your claim is $82,000. And we want to pay you the entire thing. First, that would rather than we want to offer you 80,000 Because that one word right there tells Ted not everybody, but too many people that implies Okay, well, this is this was their starting point. But you don't want to do that in negotiation. You don't want to give them that now with an attorney, you know, we all know offer demand, not nonsense. But when someone is unrepresented, you want to stay away from that, we want to hear the phrase, we took a look at your file, dear Mrs. Smith, I took a look at your file. Think about look at it. Too many people that will imply that you just glanced at it. I mean, you didn't work this file, you took a look at it. Think about this, you know, we work hard and clench. So I'll tell people, you know, take credit for the work you're doing. Don't tell a customer, you took a look at their file, I want to let you know I thoroughly evaluated this case, I double check the numbers, I reread the doctor's reports, and I have a very fair settlement figure I'd like to discuss with you. There don't say took a look at it. Another one came up with alright, we came up with 82,000 Docs. To many people, the word the phrase came up with quite literally means we made it up here. We made it up. There, right. And so we talked about, you know, know that we did a careful evaluation. And I want to share with you the results of that evaluation. Another word or phrase sometimes just use all the time not meaning to offend anybody but to say, Oh, I had a chance to review your file had a chance to I had an opportunity to review your file. And think about that you had an opportunity amongst what other more important work you have. When you tell someone I had a chance to review your file, you're admitting you almost didn't get to imagine I almost didn't get to your file. That's how important you are. That's how people will take that. What if you didn't have a chance? What if you didn't have a slow week, I wouldn't get any money. So when you tell someone I had a chance to review your file, I had an opportunity you're telling the person you almost did, that's how unimportant you are. So I would say the exact opposite. I would say Jacob, you know what, I have nothing more important on my desk to make sure that you're fairly compensated. So I want to listen to I thoroughly reviewed this case, I carefully went over the numbers. I reread the doctor's reports, and I have a very clear seven figure I'd like to discuss with you. And that's how it said I certainly wouldn't say I had an opportunity to do it. I certainly couldn't do that. So those are just some of the common ones.
Mike Gilmartin:What all I mean, it all goes back to empathy and a relationship, right? I mean, those things to your point, we don't always take time to step back and think about the words that we say and how other people will receive them. And I think that's one of the biggest things. And one of the biggest themes of everything you're talking about today is getting cooperation and gaining trust and understanding of being empathetic is all of the things that we're doing. It's how we say what we say it's what we say, that is also important. I just think it's it's such a huge deal. And it's something I'm guilty of, and I'm sure Greg is too I'm just gonna throw him in the same bus as me like, I do things like that. I do things like that, when I'm talking to our agents, or when I'm talking to somebody without even thinking about it, right. It's almost second nature to say, oh, yeah, I just second look at it. Here's what we're doing. And when you take a step back, and you think about I had a second to look at it and what that means to somebody else. It's pretty damning, honestly. So it's a very, very good reminder. Greg, any thoughts on that part?
Greg Hamlin:No, I completely agree. I mean, I had a situation not necessarily a negotiation situation. But this was just last week. We had a employee of ours, who's been with our company for 15 years, and she's decided to retire. And we were talking about when her date would be that huge, valuable member of our team. And I was talking to the HR department about, you know, next steps and we hadn't figured out the actual day at that point. That would be her last day. You know, of course we'd like to keep her for forever. But, you know, we were talking to her about working through that. And I talked to our HR department, I said, well, we need to start working on the new position. And she said, Well, wait a minute, you want to post the position, but you don't have a date yet that you've agreed upon with her, when her last day is how do you think that might make her feel? And I was like, You know what, that is a really good point. I said, You are spot on. And I talked to this individual about it. And I said, Hey, you know, sometimes I'm so busy, and I'm trying to move things along. And I want things to run smoothly, that I get going, and I need to slow down. And I shared that with her. And she said, You know what, I'm glad that you did that, you know, if you had posted that position, before we had figured out my retirement date, it would have felt like that you were just you already had a plan, you're ready to see me go. So I think we do that to ourselves sometimes. And that's an example maybe outside of negotiation, but we don't think about how we say, or what we're doing could be interpreted by somebody else. And slowing down is a big deal. So I love that
Carl Van:this interpreting partner happens all the time. Just recently, I was listening to an adjuster call with an injured worker and say, Hey, I need you to fill out this medical authorization form. And you know, this package, and the person says, I don't want to do that. And the adjuster said, why it's not complicated. Now, the adjuster, the this, the judge did not mean to say I think you're stupid person. That's not what he meant. But that's how the person took it. And so if people can take something the wrong way, maybe we need to be a little bit careful of how we phrase things.
Mike Gilmartin:Well, and I think not to not to go down a rabbit hole a little bit. But people are so reliant now on email and text communication. And there's other roles if there isn't ease to it, and everything else. But I would have adjusters constantly come to me and say I forged an email, look at this. What do you think they meant by this? Or they're mad at me? Or this is not? And I said, have you talked to them? Have you picked up the phone and call them and understood where they're coming from? Or heard the tone of their voice or anything? Well, no. I said, so how do you know what they're feeling or what they're trying to convey to you in an email? And I think it goes back to what you're talking about. I mean, you can't infer what somebody's trying to hurt. You can certain times but it is it there's over reliance on what are they I think they're mad, or what do they mean by this? And it's as simple as, hey, let's just have a conversation, pick up the phone and talk to them and listen to them. And listen to what they have to say and be empathetic. I just think it gets missed. That's just great. Not interrupt, I was just thrown out there.
Greg Hamlin:I completely agree. So far. One of the other things that you've talked about as a potential tool is that sometimes you do need an extra step to get you there. And you call this the bridge. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? If you're in the negotiations, you've gone through the steps, but you're still stuck?
Carl Van:Yeah, a bridge is a reason to give somebody to give up what they believe in, come join you. So why should they give this up? You're asking, you know, it's usually it's usually a misunderstanding. So if I'm talking to, you know, Natalie, Natalie animal, I use her help, she doesn't mind. Me say now that, you know, we're going to pay this $92,000, whatever. And she says, well, but you know, I'm going to have this future medical bills. So you're talking about the $484,380, that your doctor said, you might have to have that operation? Yes. Okay. Well, that's not included. I've actually included that that's part of this figure here. So right now I'm giving the person a bridge, I'm giving them a reason to give up why they should believe that it's worth more because it's actually aren't included. Sometimes the misunderstanding is there, they think they're entitled something that they're not so Alright, so again, Natalie, how about this 90,000? Does that sound right? Well, does that include my pain and suffering? Okay, well, now let you know what really isn't cancer. And that's for personal injury, it's not for workers comp. So we really can't include pain and suffering. In this segment, we have to include all the things you and I talked about, okay, which is the disability rating and all that. So we'd love to pay if we could, but we can't. Alright, so again, the $90,000. So in both cases, I'm clearing up a misunderstanding. One misunderstanding is she doesn't realize that I've already included those future medical bills. Now they're misunderstanding of something she's not she thinks he's entitled something she's not going to get. So a bridge is giving someone a reason, why should they give up what they believe, in this particular case, that that this changes the value of the case, and you have to be on your toes? Sometimes you just have to pay attention. I heard one of your one, just to call out and pick up the number was they're gonna pay $100,000. And the prisoner said, No, I want 200,000. And they just said, Why do you want to own$1,000? And the customer said, because I was told to double anything you offered me? Was it? And so the adjuster just kind of like well tell me what the 100,000 then went back and forth and back and forth. And it took a long time. He just didn't settle the claim because he didn't clear up the misunderstanding. The misunderstanding this customer had is you're gonna lowball me say because he said it. I was told to double anything your offer. So the justice should have said you know what, if you want, you know, double because that's what you were told. I just did that. That makes sense. And you know what, maybe that happens somewhere in the industry. Maybe that happens, maybe there are insurance companies throw out a low figure. So you could throw out a high once and go back and forth and back and forth. And after six hours, we'll come to the conclusion of what's right. Our company choose not to do that Archer, our company chooses to pay a fair amount upfront for its customers. So what I'd like to do is explain to you how I got to this $90,000. So you can feel comfortable to be treated fairly and don't have to worry about playing a numbers game. So I'm absolutely the case, what's the misunderstanding that we just play numbers that clearly standing, then we just throw numbers back and forth until we get tired. So I would clear that misunderstanding up before I ever tried to negotiate. So that's what the bridges the bridges is, is an opportunity to bring somebody over to your side of the negotiation. That's awesome.
Greg Hamlin:I think that's a good a good reminder, Carl, I know your time is valuable. We love having you on this episode. There are a lot of folks in the industry who could use your skills, I assume you do these types of trainings for corporations or insurance companies, if someone wanted to reach out to you to have this kind of training with their staff? How would they do that? Yeah, we
Carl Van:go anywhere, the United States, Canada, UK and Australia go anywhere to deliver deliver claims training. So while you're on site, or we deliver it virtually through our webinar programs, so either one, they can go to our website, which is www dot insurance, institute.com. That's a long one insurance institute.com. Or they can send me an email directly Carl Van, at insurance institute.com. And either way, they can order a catalog off our website, or they can email me directly, I'd be more than happy to chat with anybody.
Mike Gilmartin:We took your class, it had to have been, I don't know how many years ago now I know, at least 10 years ago, I've been a hero seven. And it was while I was in Illinois. But it was it's so valuable. And it's it's I hate to say it's not rocket science, but it's not things you think about until you're reminded and you you're intentional about thinking about them. And it's such good concepts to get yourself in a good mind frame when you're doing this. But it's also just so valuable to life. Like I said, I made the joke earlier about arguing with my wife, or arguing with my brother or whoever. But these things apply anywhere you have a conversation, like it applies to every part of your life. And so for what it's worth, it's a very valuable thing. And your work has had an effect on me and helped me be more successful. So for that, I appreciate it.
Carl Van:Right, I'm gonna have to raise my prices.
Greg Hamlin:I echo everything Mike said. So that's one of the reasons obviously I reached out is made an impact. And when you're still remembering something 10 years later, that's a good thing. So definitely encourage our listeners if this is something that would be helpful to reach out to Carl and his team because they do good work. One of the things that we're doing this year as we wrap things up, I would like to put some good karma in the universe. I feel like you put good out good comes back this season, one of the things we're doing is asking each of our guests just something that makes them smile, something that when you think about it makes you smile. So Carl for you, when you have one of those days, and you think about something, it's just like, You know what, that makes me happy? What's that for you?
Carl Van:Well, besides the obvious my grandkids work related, it's definitely when I get emails from people after class saying this is really going to help me I was struggling, this is going to help me or after customer service class have an injustice say I had no idea I was actually in the business of helping people this is really going to help me deal with you know, people getting angry at me at times whatever. So I'm most grateful for having an impact in people's lives. And and having having a job where I get that feedback in flames is an injustice. Sometimes you do a great job for a customer but you never hear from again, that that's that's, you know, you know, you did a good job, but you might not hear it. But in my business, I hear it a lot. And still, that's probably the thing I'm most grateful for to have an opportunity to help people and hear about it. That's awesome.
Greg Hamlin:That's awesome. Well, we appreciate your time, Carl, again, encourage folks to reach out if they have questions or they're interested in some of your services, and remind our audience to do write think differently, and don't forget to care. And that's it for this episode. Thanks, everybody.