ADJUSTED
ADJUSTED
Empathy in Insurance
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On this episode of ADJUSTED, Hope Remetta, Quinetta Leaphart, and Karyl Bierwagen from Berkley Industrial Comp discuss how empathy is transforming claims handling in the workers' compensation field. They explore balancing compassion with impartial decision-making, maintaining lower caseloads for adjusters, and fostering meaningful conversations. The episode highlights the power of gratitude and empathy in enhancing both professional and personal relationships.
Season 9 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin.
Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to marketing@berkindcomp.com
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at camrunyan9@gmail.com
Hello everybody and welcome to Adjusted. I'm your host, greg Hamlin, coming at you from beautiful Birmingham, Alabama and Berkeley Industrial Comp, and I'm excited to share this episode with you and want to pose a question. What if empathy could help us achieve better results in the workers' compensation space and make our employees happier? That's the thought. So with me today I have several guests from Berkeley Industrial Comp. I have Hope Bermuda, who is our Director of Catastrophic Claims. Hope, if you could say hello to everybody and introduce yourself.
Speaker 2Hello everybody. I'm here in snowy cold Lexington, kentucky.
Speaker 1Yeah, I feel bad for you guys. You guys got about eight inches or so, right A lot for Kentucky.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, pretty nice deal.
Speaker 1We might get some flurries tomorrow. So, which is crazy unusual, down here in Birmingham I think I've seen it snow twice in six years and both times it melted off the same day. So I assume that will be the same for tomorrow, but time will tell. But it will shut the city down. So do feel bad for you guys, but I'm not missing the eight inches, having grown up in the Midwest. I also want to welcome Quinetta Leapart. She's our nurse case manager here at Berkeley Industrial Comp. Quinetta, if you could say hello to everybody.
Speaker 3Hello, I'm Quinetta and I'm just hoping for half of what Hope is looking out her window at tomorrow.
Speaker 1Yeah right, if the kids could see the snow but not have to shovel. Yeah, that's what we're going to aim for. And then also with me, I have Carol Beerwagon. She's a senior catastrophic claims specialist out of Indianapolis, my old home. You say hello to everybody.
Speaker 4Hi everybody, thanks for having me. I am also looking at about nine inches and we get three more tomorrow, so I'm over it.
Speaker 1Good grief. Yeah, our Phillips come up next month, so we're about there in Birmingham. So that's the part I don't miss is the snow. I do miss my Midwestern friends, but the food down here is pretty good too, so we'll take it. The other day, my team had me have collard greens for the first time, so now I can say I've had some good soul food. So I'm learning. I'm learning.
Speaker 1Well, we're excited about this topic. Today we're going to talk about empathy and claims, and this is something that I feel super passionate about. I think every person I have all my guests feel very passionate about this, so I'm really looking forward to this episode. You know, we do hear a lot in the claims industry about advocacy, claims handling, and I'm always a little hesitant with that because it is very difficult position that adjusters are in for those who have done this job, in that we are representing a insured, we're representing an agent, we're working with an injured worker and if we're a carrier, like we are, there's also shareholders and policy. So that's a lot of balancing to do and it's really difficult to manage all of those relationships.
Speaker 1If we're deciding we're going to advocate for one over another. If we're deciding we're going to advocate for one over another, and so one of the things we've really focused on here has been empathy and how might, and the question we really posed for our department is how might empathy help us to achieve better results and, at the same time, increase feeling meaningful in our day-to-day work environment? And so Hope you've been part of our journey on that and you were sharing some fun facts about empathy as we started out. Hope, where do you feel empathy fits in claims?
Speaker 2Yeah, that's a great question. So I think empathy is with every interaction that we have right. We think about empathy as our ability to put ourselves in someone else's shoes and to truly understand what they're feeling and what they're going through. And we are in a unique spot in the work comp world where we have so many interactions, of which that gives us the opportunity to do that with right. We can talk to our injured workers, certainly their families as well. Oftentimes we're especially with catastrophic claims having discussions with the wife or the child or adult child, I should say or mother or father. Anytime you have the ability to listen, to understand somebody, as opposed to listen to judge, I think is an opportunity to insert empathy and communication.
Speaker 1I like that thought, hope. I think one of the challenges and you sort of said it there, so I want to take it a little further you had mentioned to put yourself in someone else's shoes and try to understand them before you judge. And I think when we think about the job of an adjuster, we're like, well, our job is to judge, so how do you reconcile that, how do you balance having to make a judgment which is what we have to do we investigate claims and we make decisions with trying to understand someone else's point of view and putting yourself in their shoes?
Speaker 2That's a good point. So, yeah, you're right. At the end of the day, we have to make decisions, right. We have to fact gather. We have to then make some pretty tough decisions and they're not always great decisions, right? Sometimes that is a hard decision, especially to communicate to an injured worker, but I think that all of those can be done with kindness and compassion and empathy, right? So before we can make any decisions, we have to fact gather right.
Speaker 2So any when we're having conversations to seek to understand a situation as a whole, that requires us to have all the facts right. So it really just allows us to do our jobs better. It allows us to make a connection with an injured worker. You know, as a result, when you're having a conversation with somebody and you're really seeking to understand them, you know, as a result, when you're having a conversation with somebody and you're really seeking to understand them, you learn a lot about them, right? You learn a lot about things that may impact their recovery. So when we're having our initial contacts with our injured workers, you know we may find that they don't have a good support system at home or maybe they're going to need some additional resources as we go through the recovery process.
Speaker 2But we wouldn't know that if we weren't taking the time to really get to know them and get to know what's going on in their life outside of the injury, because when injuries happen, this doesn't happen in a bubble or a vacuum, right? We're human beings, we're complicated. We're human beings, we're complicated. Things are life's busy, life has so many layers that when you have an unexpected injury, and oftentimes catastrophic in nature, you're not just affecting the injured worker, but there's a ripple effect right within that person's life. It's affecting their family, their job, their financial income, their health, and the better we can understand what that ripple effect looks like, the better we can provide them what they need if appropriate, or make those tough decisions right. Sometimes that's just how it goes in the industry and depending upon the state, but you can also communicate that with an injured worker from a place of compassion and empathy.
Speaker 1I love that hope. I think that holistic approach makes a really big difference and it's real easy to compartmentalize it so that you can make the decisions without having to feel, because that part's hard. But I do think if our goal's outcomes, looking at all the pieces in a holistic way, makes a big difference. Carol, on your end, you've been in the industry almost 20 years in claims in workers' compensation, so you have a lot of experience Kind of crept up on you, didn't it? Yes, it did, so I saw her face. That's a big number it is. So as you think through that, you've worked across a couple of different companies. You've seen kind of how claims has changed. Why do you think the industry has been a little bit slow to focus on empathy?
Speaker 4I think most insurance companies assign so many claims to their adjusters, or maybe the root of the problem is don't hire enough adjusters. The adjusters don't have time to be empathetic. They have to make decisions and close claims. The message the adjusters are getting from their employer, the insurance company, is we need you to close these files as quickly as possible. Why isn't this settled? Why isn't this closed? And there's no room for empathy when you're rushing to close a claim, and that is the focus.
Speaker 4That's something I think is really different about how Berkeley Industrial Comp work is.
Speaker 4Certainly there is a focus on claim resolution, but as a part of that, it's how can we make this the best outcome for our injured workers. Part of that it's how can we make this the best outcome for our injured workers, and within that is having empathy to think about other things that may be at play in their life that maybe we can help with or maybe we just need to listen. But that's a big focus here and that's not typical of insurance companies. I think also, you know, when I've been ill or had a medical procedure, afterwards I feel kind of delicate, like physically, but also maybe emotionally a little bit, and I think that's really important for us adjusters to remember to just slow down when we pick up our phone to talk to the injured worker and kind of think about that delicate headspace they're in. And I think that's something Quenetta is especially really good at. She's so good at foreseeing needs that these injured workers might have that I haven't thought about. She's a pro at empathy.
Speaker 2I think I would add one thing to that is that you know, our industry has changed so much in 20 years. Right, Like we are. Just it's a different beast now. But I think back in the day our industry was really process oriented, right, Like you were just a processor, you were just not even fact gathering per se, but you were getting the information and then cutting checks right and making decisions and really in a vacuum. And I think over that time I think the industry has started to realize, oh, we're humans, right, Like we're complicated, there's a lot more to do this. If we start paying attention to all of that, then we start considering all of that, then maybe, just maybe, we can get better outcomes for the injured workers, therefore better outcomes for us. And I think that you've seen that shift over the last, you know, five to seven years in the industry. Overall, I'd say Great insights.
Speaker 1Hope, Gwynetta, on your end, come with a nurse background. You've been here for seven years now and came from a clinical background. So where you are working in a hospital setting or some other places, where does, as a nurse, where does empathy play a role in what you do every day?
Speaker 3Yeah, super big role, just thinking about what Hope and Carol just said. I mean, it's the holidays and you're off work. You're facing something that you've never faced before. I have tiny people looking at me, I have a wife looking at me or a husband looking at me because our income is impacted, and now I don't know what to do, and so most of my thought process is behind. Do I put a nurse on the claim? Maybe I'll talk to the adjuster about putting a nurse on the claim.
Speaker 3Just based off how they report back from the doctor's office or from the appointments, maybe they don't understand why they continue to have to go to therapy. It's not really helping me. I'm still in pain. So we have to think what's going to best help them get through this and how quickly they can get through it, because you don't want someone faced with the situation of well, what am I going to do? This is the only thing I've done since I was 16 years old and I've been working there for 20 years, and now they're telling me that I can't go back to that line of work.
Speaker 3So we definitely or I think about what is the best route to get them to the best end result, to where they still feel like they can normally function and they still play a big role in their family, and even if they've been the main breadwinner to get through their treatment, how can we help? What can I do to help you understand why he's sending you to therapy or why he's sending you for another test or why he's recommending another surgery? We have to think, or I think, about the long-term results of the injury and getting there as quickly as possible for their overall health and their understanding. So that's usually what I focus on. So like do you understand what's going on? Do you know what's going on and how can we get you back to work? And if you can't do that, which way are we going to go now?
Speaker 1Those are great points, quenetta, because I think it's real easy, from where we sit, when we're working in this field every day, to forget how complicated all of these things are, that our workers maybe they've never been to had a surgery, or understand the medical terminology, or know what therapy is, or know how their benefits are paid. I remember when I was in high school I went to Germany as an exchange student. I had a couple classes of German before I went, but I was living with the German family and sometimes it was really hard to communicate. And you know, it made me realize, like basic things, that like one morning I knew we were going to a parade but I didn't know how to say the word parade, that's not a word you learn. And so I said and then I just said parade, and my guest mom looked at me really confused and I said it three times and she said, oh, baten, and she showed me like praying arms If you want to pray with us on Sunday, you need to wake up earlier.
Implementing Empathy in Difficult Claims
Speaker 1And I was like, hmm, I guess I'm not going to be able to explain this. So I just waited until it happened because I couldn't figure out or communicate how to ask that question and I think on the claim side that happens sometimes where we're using terms we're using medical terms, workers' compensation terms and those terms don't translate and then we wonder why later they get an attorney or they're litigating the file and it might not be because we've done anything wrong or we didn't care, but because they didn't understand. So I think that's great insight. Quenetta, I hope you've been here, as our company has really taken a journey to figure out how to better implement empathy and we created what we call the empathetic resolution model, really as a team approach to handling that. Can you talk to me a little bit about that journey?
Speaker 2Yeah, so we've done several things. I think as basic as I think Carol alluded to this earlier is keeping our caseloads lower, because the lower we keep our caseloads, the more time our adjusters have with our injured workers to be able to have these type of conversations right. More encouraging them to understand the picture holistically, understand the injured worker holistically. And then, going back off of what you just said about really being able to communicate in terms that somebody that's outside of the industry would understand and understand the process, we decided to create a letter. Actually we redid a letter that goes out with our initial claims and the original letter was honestly very work cop jargon. It sounded very legal. It sounded like an attorney had written it kind of explaining what the work comp process looked like and what the injured worker could expect. If you were in the industry it would be a very hard hard letter to understand. So that was kind of our first bite at the apple was hey, let's start with that first initial communication and revamp this letter and really break it down into layman's terms so that anybody that touches this letter can really understand what's happening and what they can expect. And then also we kind of problem solved in that and that letter too, by saying, for example, if you were to get a bill in the mail which is very likely, right, most of our injured workers get a bill from time to time from a provider this is what you need to do, like, don't you know, don't worry, don't be concerned with it, here's the process, this is what you need to do, and several different things like that. Throughout the claim we kind of said, hey, this is probably going to happen and this is what you can expect from us, and this is what you can expect from us and this is how you can handle it. That was kind of our first big thing that we did. And then we had, we kind of reached out to our adjusters saying, hey, what are things that you all would like to see, or what are some things that you would like to do to help show our injured workers that we genuinely care for their wellbeing? And from that a suggestion of cookies or flowers came up, or flowers, I think, was the original suggestion. And we kind of thought about the profile of our injured workers for the most part, given the industries that we tend to write, are typically male, blue-collared workers, right, so we thought flowers might not be the best option, and that we came up with cookies when the addresser sees fit right. If they've had a catastrophic injury, if they've had a big surgery, maybe they have something in their case that we want to celebrate for them. And not only is this sending out, for example, like one cookie, because we're having these conversations with them, maybe we understand that they've got three kiddos at home, right? So we're going to send them a box of cookies so then their family can enjoy it as well.
Speaker 2And I have an example of an injured worker which was pretty cool. Soon after we started this, one of our injured workers called after receiving I think maybe he was even the first person we sent cookies to. Honestly, he was one of the first handful of gentlemen that we we sent it to and and he called and he was like I can't believe. You know, my wife said that you know, hope sent you a, a gift, and he calls me and he says I've never received anything like this, like I've never received anything in the mail, and I like I I'm so shocked that you cared enough to send something, right, so you've got this.
Speaker 2This male blue collar worker that was like so excited and felt so good that somebody was thinking about him right during a hard time. So that so we do, we do cookies and then unfortunately, with what we do, we see fatalities. Right, we like to send out wind chimes to the family in remembrance to our injured workers that are deceased, and then we've really encouraged our adjusters to think outside of the box. We really don't like to handle claims in the cookie cutter approach right, certainly not every injured worker is the same right. Just as being a human you're going to be uniquely different. So we really encourage, because we have done all the legwork up front, getting to know our injured workers, building that relationship. Then we are able to understand their individual needs and how those needs may or may not fit within that jurisdiction Right. We certainly need to continue to work within the confounds of the laws within that particular state.
Speaker 1Well, and I would add to that hope you know, when you talk about working within the bounds of the state, you know, a lot of times I think it is a statutory industry we're in. We make our decisions based on the state laws and they're different. But there isn't anything that says that you can't go above and beyond the statute and do more for an injured worker, and I think that's something we've tried to challenge the status quo on a little bit, because if I do more and that results in a better outcome and the injured worker gets back to work earlier or avoids a second surgery or whatever it might be, really everybody's winning. So like there are times that we can go above and beyond and we're we're going to talk about one of those in a future episode coming up this season and I'm really excited about. But I think that we kind of sometimes we get so focused on the guardrails we forget that there isn't anything like the commissioner is not going to come out and say, carol, you're in trouble, you sent them cookies, you did too much, or you, you offered them an even better treatment option, even though they had a treatment option and they took it and now they have a better outcome. So I think that's a good, a good, a good piece to add there and I really love you.
Speaker 1Just sharing the journey that our company was on continues to be on, carol, one of the things that's so hard is sometimes and I know you've had to do this you have a claim where the person makes some bad choices and they get hurt in that situation may not allow for it to be covered under workers' comp because of the choices they've made. How do you work through that? I know you had one that was pretty challenging involving a DUI with a truck driver. I want you to talk a little bit about where does empathy fit when we have to make those difficult decisions and deny a claim?
Empathy and Communication in Workers' Comp
Speaker 4Yeah. So the situation was that an injured worker got hurt in a motor vehicle accident and when the police arrived they found whatever it was that ended up getting charged with a DUI. And so the state did charge him with that and because there was, you know, a safety violation, he violated the law. The claim was not accepted. So I had to call and have that conversation with him that he was going to have these medical bills and lost wages that we weren't going to pay for. But I think within those conversations you can still express compassion because even though he made a poor choice, he's facing a lot of stressful things right, he's hurt, he's now off work and he's got legal issues he's got to worry about.
Speaker 4None of that is necessarily our financial responsibility because the claim is denied, but we can have compassion for him as a human and then also explain why the claim is not covered and answer questions that he may have and see if there's any other available resources to him that we might be able to help him discuss through.
Speaker 4So in this particular instance with the DUI, no, we weren't able to cover his claim, but I did ask do you have personal health insurance? And he said yes, but my driver's license and my insurance card were destroyed in the car accident, so I don't have anything to give to the hospital. So in that case, with one phone call I was able to help him. I reached out to his employer, who was able to give me a copy of his private health insurance card, and I forwarded it to him via email. So now he has the information he needs to give to the hospital so that he's not hit with all these big bills that he has to figure out. So it didn't take very much time or effort on my part to be able to help fix an issue for him, even though it wasn't us that was going to be paying for his claim.
Speaker 1I really appreciate that story for a few reasons. One is how many times do we hear of adjusters that just send out a denial and never call and never explain it because they don't want to have the conversation, because they know it's going to be hard? And I think that's part of owning that decision is we owe it to them to explain why. We may not agree on it, but we should be able to explain why and we should be willing to have that call and take those steps and then doing what we can to help them resolve their problem, if it's possible, even if it's not us that's going to pay, goes a long way to showing that we understand they're going through something difficult. And while we're not required to do those things, I feel like part of being a good human being is to do the best we can and within the confines of what our obligations are.
Speaker 1So I really appreciate that because I think sometimes we think, well, there isn't a place for empathy when somebody makes bad decisions and they get hurt. And we deny that claim. And I think I would argue there is, and that doesn't change our responsibilities to those involved. But we can still do it with compassion and I think that's a great example, Quenetta, one of the challenges that adjusters face is we have to have so many different things going on. We have cooperation between the employer and the employee, which can be challenging sometimes. We have medical providers, we have treatment as a nurse and working with nurse case managers. How do you help coordinate all those things to make sure that everybody understands what needs to happen and nothing's getting lost in translation?
Speaker 3Yeah, definitely an open line of communication. So I always stress that we should all be on the same email chain. There's no sense in the adjuster forwarding it to me when we can all get the information and then we can all take a look and see what's the best option and how to move forward with that particular problem, having issues with getting a particular service scheduled or not. And maybe I have a contact, maybe Carol has a contact that we can give, but we would all answer that and we would all be on the same page. So I think when you're working as a team, it's important to keep everything on the same path, speaking the same language, and that way I mean there's nobody that can come behind you and say like, well, I didn't know, you did that part or I didn't know, we all had different interactions, when we all have the same common goal, which is getting everybody healed up and back to work. So, however we choose to do it, I'd rather just work as a team.
Speaker 1I love that and I think you know I've seen this when I was an adjuster, where we'd have an injured worker go to the doctor's office and the doctor would ask, do you have any modified duty?
Speaker 1And the doctor and the injured worker would say no, because they don't know and we have an injured worker who's off work. But maybe if there is the kind of communication you're talking about of bringing in the insured and the employer and the injured worker and the nurse and coordinating all that, maybe we can avoid some of those miscues where there are opportunities to work together to achieve an outcome. So I'm really glad that you pointed that out. We've talked a lot about injured workers and how challenging empathy can be in that space. One of the other hats we have to wear as adjusters is we work with policyholders and agents as part of what we do and they have certain desires, wants information, they need Hope. Where does empathy fit in that cycle for you when you start thinking about agents, policyholders, some of the other people who are in this, that maybe they don't fit under what you would think of as claims advocacy, but I think there is a role.
Speaker 2Yeah, most definitely. I think that I mean any human interaction, right. The more that we can have a conversation and help each other understand perspectives, the better the outcomes. And we also have to remember too that not every insured or policy holder or agent is super work comp savvy. They may be more familiar with a different line and work comp's really unique.
Speaker 2So the more that we can help educate the process this kind of goes back to the injured worker right, speak to them in terms of which they can understand, in terms of, you know, not throw out a lot of work comp jargon if they're not very work comp savvy and, you know, really helping them understand our thought process and the laws within that jurisdiction, because work comp is state specific. So they may be used to having cases in Illinois but this happens to be a Florida claim. Well, those are going to be handled very different in the sense of what that jurisdiction allows. So helping them understand the differences in educating I think that's probably the biggest is one communication helping, like making sure that we're explaining things and not just sending out notices, as we talked about before, right, like not just saying telling somebody something's denied or something accepted, but really explaining the why behind it, and then helping them understand the caveats in the rationale the caveats and the rationale Awesome.
Gratitude and Empathy in Workplaces
Speaker 1No, I really agree with that. And I think that a lot of times where there's friction between a policyholder or an employer, an agent, it does come from that lack of understanding. We haven't taken the time to explain it and in their mind they're thinking about well, our rates are going to go up because you're paying for X, y, z and this shouldn't even be covered. And we haven't really taken the time to try to understand why they're frustrated and explain it. And you're right, like the states are so different, so you can even two claims are so different. You can have two claims that one might be denied and the other could be accepted and the facts could be pretty close. But something small might be a huge deal when it comes to the statutes in that state. So I do think that that's really important. It goes back to just taking the time to put ourselves in someone else's shoes and being patient and explaining the process. And going back to what Carol said earlier, that can be hard to do if we load our people up with hundreds of claims and expect them to process all those. So great, great points. I just, I really am passionate about this topic. I felt like the team that spent on this call today. This episode all really represent what empathy looks like in workers' comp, and I really hope that the industry continues to think about this and think of ways to implement this better in the process, and I think we still we're just on the tip of the iceberg of the things we're going to be able to do here as we work together. So I want to wrap up this episode.
Speaker 1One of the things that I've really tried to do each year is make sure that we put good vibes in the universe. I feel like one way to do that is to express gratitude. It's something that I try to do every day so that I don't forget about my whys. So I wanted to start with you, carol. What's something we're in a brand new year, in 2025, what's something you're grateful for?
Speaker 4I have two sort of just to circle back with what we've been talking about today Super grateful for an employer who does sort of preach the whole empathy perspective. It makes me happier in my job because I feel like I'm genuinely impacting people's lives in a good way, and I also feel like that empathy is returned to me and how my coworkers and my supervisors treat me and that just makes everything better and it follows, it flows through to how I look at and treat my friends and family too, when I feel like I'm being taken care of and feel good about taking care of others. So very grateful for that. And also, just in this cold season, super grateful for a roof over my head and heat. I know there's a lot of folks out there who don't have that, so I'm grateful for what I have.
Speaker 1That is wonderful. Couldn't say it any better, carol, and I do think so much better. When you can be the same person in all the parts of your life and you don't have to go to work and be one person and come home and be another person, we can allow our people to be the kind of people that we want them to be all the time, absolutely. And showing up is a big deal. So I know I'm going to spoil this, probably shouldn't even share it, but you know, hope mentioned just yesterday that she had eight Luella on. Our team's husband came with her son and shoveled her out, and so I think you know that's what it's about. We're all here for each other. We show up, hope. What's something you're grateful for? I know that was one because I heard about it yesterday.
Speaker 2Undoubtedly, undoubtedly, yeah, I mean I think one Carol said it the best. Honestly, I think that working for a company that doesn't only preach it but shows up in that way, and that doesn't only show up with it and the work that we're putting out, but within the corporation, like I genuinely feel supported, I genuinely feel like this is a family, that which then just makes work fun, right, and then when you're happy here, then you can. You know it, it translates out into what you're putting out in terms of your product. So, yeah, I'm incredibly, incredibly grateful for co-workers such as Luella and everybody else is is pretty great, pretty awesome.
Speaker 1I love that hope, Quinetta, you might have the biggest heart of anybody. I know and a lot of people don't know that, but I do. What's something you're grateful for, Quenetta?
Speaker 3Yeah, and I think Carol had a great point in pointing out that we all work for a super cool employer that allows us to be who we are at home and be the same person who we are at work. And I'm going to say that I'm very grateful for family because not everyone has one, and that I'm going home this afternoon Just thinking about the people in California right now who don't have that option. So super grateful for the little things that you don't think about.
Expressing Gratitude and Encouragement in Workplace
Speaker 1I love that. I think the world would be a better place if we all remembered the things we take for granted and how lucky we are to have those things in our life, and so I just want to thank each of you for everything you do for our organization and for taking the time to do this episode. Today. I'm going to remind folks to make sure they like and follow the podcast. That's really important because if we're going to get more people to listen to it, we need you to do that. So please do those things.
Speaker 1The other thing I'd ask is if you could please take a look at the reviews. If you have time, put a review in there if you're enjoying this episode, because we want others to find their way to adjust it. We've been doing this for a long time. We feel like we're a leader in the space, but we want to make sure that we impact the industry in a positive way, so if you could do those things for me, that would be fantastic. We remind people to do right, think differently and don't forget to care and follow us every two weeks as we release new episodes. So thanks everyone, take care.