The ThinkND Podcast
The ThinkND Podcast
Caregiving with Dignity, Part 2: Perspectives on Caregiver Mental Heath & Wellbeing
Episode Topic: Perspectives on Caregiver Mental Heath & Wellbeing
Listen in to a conversation with Kendra Washington-Bass '94, chair of the Black Alumni of Notre Dame, and Danielle Duchatellier Boucree, MSW, LCSW-C, MBA '91 about how caregivers can preserve their mental health, navigate the stress and emotional challenges of caregiving, and strengthen relationships during this demanding time.
As our society faces the emotional, financial, professional, and spiritual pressures of caring for aging or sick parents, spouses, young children or other loved ones, many in our Notre Dame community may need support and practical advice.
Featured Speakers:
- Kendra Washington-Bass ’94, chair of the Black Alumni of Notre Dame
- Danielle Duchatellier Boucree, MSW, LCSW-C, MBA ’91, HOPE Psychotherapy
Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/bf198e
This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Caregiving with Dignity.
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Greetings, and thank you so much for being here and joining us today. My name is Dr. Kendra Washington Bass class of 1994 and proud chair of the Black alumni of Notre Dame. Welcome to our series, caring With Dignity. As a passionate Notre Dame alum, I've seen firsthand how to leverage the Notre Dame community, not only for networking and careers, which is fantastic. But I believe there is a unique responsibility and opportunity for us to support each other on a more personal and deeper level. In today's world, many in our noted community are navigating complex challenges of caregiving for aging parents, sick, loved ones, and young ones. And these responsibilities bring emotional, financial, and spiritual pressures that require our collective support. As well as practical advice. So throughout this series, you will dive into the following. One, you'll hear from our donors around their caregiving stories. Two, there's an opportunity for you to hear about tips and strategies related to financial and legal issues. We'll explore some of these cultural considerations and caregiving decisions. We'll discuss what legacy means in our family history, and then finally sharing those strategies and fostering an inclusive family caregiving experience. So on behalf of the Black alumni of Notre Dame, we invite you to en to join us in the Caring With Dignity series. We hope that you find this series insightful, engaging, and that you follow along with us and think indeed. Now before we get started, I'd like to extend a sincere thanks to the Notre Dame Alumni Association and the Initiative on Race and Resilience for sponsoring this Caregiving with Dignity series. In our first session, we heard deeply personal stories from three incredible donors who all are navigating the challenges of caregiving. Lisa Marie, Francesca and Ray shared their journeys with us, how they unexpectedly stepped into the role of caregiver. Balancing the demands and family and work as well as their own lives. And we learned about the emotional toll caregiving takes on relationships as it shifts dynamics from parent and child to caregiver and dependent, and how essential it is to maintain respect for the independence of a loved one. Our guest highlighted the importance of open communication, especially with parents or loved ones. Who may not have been prepared for us to take on the practical aspect of caregiving, like their finances or even their medical care. We also touched on the financial burden with Lisa Marie offering and valuable advice about understanding long-term care policies and planning for the future. Ray and Francesca shared practical tools like having a virtual assistant and involving other family members to lighten the load. Perhaps the most poignant takeaway was from our first discussion was the need for self-care. It became clear that without caregiving and carving up space for ourselves, caregivers risk, losing their sense of self, ultimately their wellbeing. So today we are happy and proud to have a new, partner. One of our domers who's gonna share with us her relationship expertise, her psychotherapist expertise, as we dive into how caregivers can preserve their mental health, navigate the stresses and emotional challenges of caregiving and strengthen relationships during this demanding time. Please help me welcome Danielle Re. Danielle, thank you so much for joining us today.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Thank you for having me.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:I so appreciate that you here. Now, Danielle, you are a 1991 graduate of the University of Notre Dame. Is that correct?
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:I am. Yeah,
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:And could you share with us before we get started, a little bit about your journey in Notre Dame and why you do what you do today?
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:sure. so actually at Notre Dame I was a business major, used a very different side of my brain. and after graduation I went ahead and, and I was in business for decades, but I was in marketing and what I love loved was people. Understanding why people bought what they bought. And that's why I was in marketing for so long. but after about 20 years in the business, I realized that I really wasn't following my passion it was time for me to be true to myself. I went back to school and now I'm a psychotherapist in which I really get to dig into, how people feel and what they think. And, the most rewarding, rewarding thing may be a combination of my, Notre Dame self and my professional self is that I get to really help people and hear their appreciation for the help and for the repair and for the help in their healing journeys. And that is so rewarding to me. It always has been.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. Thank you.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:of service, a little bit of professional.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:And, I think, we all have a story to tell about the way that we find our purpose in life. And I just remember we were on campus for a short period of time together and from 1990 to 91 and to see the legacies that we're leaving for those students who are here, knowing that going through an education experience is part of the journey. And what we're talking about now is it's been 30 some odd years later, removed from graduating from the university. What happens along the way as we continue to mature, as we continue to think about our own legacies, but also. What happens to those who supported us along our education journeys? Our parents, our guardians, our loved ones. Some of us are married. We are caring for each other. We're caring for our parents and caring for our children. And this conversation is so apropos, especially today, our families are living longer. And I'm so happy to be able to talk to you about teasing out some of the elements of the conversation that happened a few weeks ago with our donors. And so we wanted to get an expert in the field, and thank you again for being here. So I'm gonna take out my pen because I wanna write some notes. As I think about caregiving of my own mom, I think about. What this means for myself and my husband as our children will, it probably at some point care for us or there could be something that happens in our lives that renders us, limited in how we can care for ourselves and in what happens next. So there's this idea around, are caregivers born? Are they made, what is the temperament? Of a person who's a caregiver, how does that happen?
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:honestly, I don't think it's a specific temperament. I think it's a will, right? it's, it requires patience for definite, a lot of patience. it require, requires us to stay mindful in what's going on today as opposed to what went on in the past or what is to come in the future. a lot of resilience, compassion for this person who is, changing every day and unfortunately on the decline, right? So we have to give them a lot of compassion and we have to be able to adapt with the changing stuff, the stuff that's happening day to day, whether it's health or thoughts or emotions, like things are changing and we have to be able to change with them. I. and then emotional regulation is really important, but in order to regulate your emotions, you actually have to be aware of them, right? So being honest, I tell people who come to work with me all the time, having a journal is a part of working through the stuff, right? Writing it down, not like a jerk, not like a diary, but more like a ho, a place to hold your feelings and your thoughts so that you can see them and work through them, right? and maneuver them, if you will, on paper, So that idea of have, being able to identify your emotions and regulate them is really important. And then strong communication skills, right? None of us are actually in this game alone.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yes.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:So being able to communicate how you're feeling and what you need or to really things that you cannot avoid when taking care of, of an aging parent or a sick. A sick person in your family?
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah, you just hit on a few things. I wrote down, this idea of journaling, and I'm gonna bring that to, I, I wanna elevate that a bit because I follow you on LinkedIn. And as I followed you on LinkedIn, you were guiding us through journaling as a way of centering our feelings. And so I, I did that and I'm not typically a journal writer, but I've learned to use some of the techniques you shared to formulate how I'm feeling. And put words, whether they're poetic words or, I even bought this book called The Emotion Area. It's words that are made up, that you can't find like actual words for it. And I've been using that to describe these mixed emotions. So that's the first thing. The second thing.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:love that.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. Emotionally, you have to look it up. The second thing that I heard you say was, communication and sharing what you need. Now. I will use myself as a beta test. Here I am a doer. I will get it done, and I don't need nobody to help me. So someone like me,
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Kendra?
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:I know, and it's worked for me. It is worked for me in my work, but in this type of role, what does it take? What would it take for someone like me to communicate a need for help when I am supporting a loved one? when I can just push back on you Danielle, and say, I got it. I got it. Everything's fine. I got it. and I think culturally, especially. Right this idea of, wearing this cape and not seeing the cracks. So share a little bit about how do we communicate that? What does that actually mean for people to communicate that need?
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:yeah. So when we're taking care of
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:I,
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:parents or sick people in our lives, it comes with an organic level of stress, right? So when we're in that situation, when you literally said, no, I'm
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:I am fine.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:was like, Ugh. Like the hair stood up on the back of my neck. And because no one really, people aren't fine isn't actually a feeling. It's just a, it's a word, but it's not an adjective, it's not a, it doesn't describe anything. And so I think in order to communicate and to get the help that you need, that first thing, and I hate to harp on it. People, clients and friends in general are always like you and your feelings. Like it is the most important thing to be able, if you Google feelings wheel, all these
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yes.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:up,
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:yes.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:ones for kids and there are ones for adults. And, it allows you to pick a feelings word
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:you really have a robust vocabulary yourself, right? to really ident identify how am I actually feeling? Because if you tell somebody, I'm fine, I need this, right? They're gonna believe that you don't need it. Because you're saying I'm fine. But if you say, listen, I'm feeling overwhelmed right now. Could you please do this? First of all, they can validate your feeling. I'm so sorry that you feel overwhelmed, and that feels like you're not
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:right? For somebody to validate your feelings, and then when you ask for what you need, they hear you. But if you go right in with do this, do that, or sometimes when we carry that level of stress, we get critical, right? You're not doing enough. What? What are you doing?
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yes.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:are you on that video game or whatever, when you, I'm doing all these
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:right? So it allows us to focus on how we feel and what we need, and not so much criticizing the other in front of us,
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. Yeah. I hear you.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:once you hit somebody with criticism, they're going to get defensive. You're never gonna get what you want. heard,
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. Yeah. So those feelings being clo cloaked in some other layers? I think so. I guess I said I'm using myself, because that's most apropos at this moment.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yes.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:think about that, that, that conversation that I have in my, with myself. some of those are cultural in nature, About, how to show strength. Some of those are baked into sort of the cultural norms of American, sort of Western civilization as well. And then those within my own community and fa and sort of family, dynamics and speaking of family dynamics, I think as we talk about this potential shift. in relationships with parents, especially if we are taking care of our parents. What about relationships that are not as strong? So I have a very strong relationship with my mom. she is, we complete each other's sentence. People just call me mini Karen, right? and. And not so much a very strong relationship with my dad, who is ill. My father has leukemia, has been battling leukemia for many years. and this health crisis of his actually pulled me back into relationship with him. there is still tension. So share a little bit about. Your expertise, your advice or suggestions when that happens, or if there are relationships that are really fractured, but you have a parent or a loved one that you may have to take care of what happens?
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:yeah. think it's a little bit of a mind shift
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Okay.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:this isn't actually an opportunity to connect sometimes, right? when you find out that a parent is ill, or they're age aging and you realize they're on a decline, right? Life slows down because it has to,
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Other things that were noise go away because you're focused in on this one thing, and that's a blessing, right? I want, I, we in as a society move a lot. We're constantly going from one thing to another. We've got goals. We're achieving things, we're doing all things, and that's wonderful, when everything gets quiet, you actually get the opportunity to connect with other human beings. I think we learned that in Covid
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yes. Yes, we did.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:right? Things got quiet and suddenly we were playing board games and we were doing things like. and we were spending time watching movies with our families, like we were doing things right. So to learn from that, it is an opportunity for pe for parents that you're already close to, right? To learn more about them, To sit down and schedule quality time with them just to sit and ask, help me understand this. What was this? I see you as a person who values education. Where does that come
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yep.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:To really try and get to know them for, relationships that are more complicated and And ha and have a maybe a little bit of a darker history. not that different, right? We have an opportunity to sit down and ask questions to get some of our feelings validated. maybe there was a time in your life where you felt like your mom or your dad prioritized something other than you, right? And to understand where that came from, right? This is an opportunity for you sit down and ask maybe some of the tougher questions, but tough questions don't have to be detrimental to a relationship. I often say I work with couples a lot and I often they'll come in and they'll say, we have all this, we're constantly fighting. We're fighting all the time. And I'm just like, okay. I actually think conflict causes connection. It's an opportunity for connection. I don't think fighting is bad, you just have to learn how to do it properly, and respectfully. But I think with con conflict and, and discord actually comes connection and a greater love and appreciation for the other person. just because a com, just because a relationship was complicated up, doesn't mean that the care at the end also has to be complicated. It can actually give you the caretaker a sense of fulfillment and joy even sometimes for having to heal what was maybe broken.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah, I'm hearing, I wrote down as you were writing like this idea of being in this vulnerable state for both the caregiver and the one who's being cared for. for thinking about, how. I don't know if this is the right word, but this nakedness around this, this experience, right? We're seeing each other in these raw spaces and how to turn those raw spaces into the blessings, into the opportunities that you just spoke of. I don't think I've, reconciled it that way in my head. I was just like, there's a, I just say there's a reason why I'm being pulled back into this relationship with dad, right? there's something unfinished, whether it's a spiritual thing that I'm reconciling, but it is a vulnerability, right? I, he's hearing me speak about things. We're talking about how we love each other, which we rarely used to say because this moment requires us to say it.'cause we don't know if we're gonna see tomorrow. So all of these things, and. There. There is a educator, his name is Doc Brown, and he talks about this idea of people walking around with invisible backpacks and it's the load we carry and we just don't know what's inside the backpack. What you were just describing, the opportunity to sit down across from mom, dad, or family members and ask the questions that we might have had not had that opportunity to understand why is unpacking that backpack?
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah,
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. Yeah. so the follow up to what you just said has to do with, this feeling that some people will get in terms of, resenting being the caregiver, if that's the right word. I don't know if that's the word. If, if it's, Guilt as well. But this idea of having to pause and stop our lives to take care of our, like we didn't sign up for it. It's supposed to be the other way around, right? So how do we reconcile those feelings? and maybe it's connected to what you just talked about in terms of opportunities and blessings. So share a little bit more about that.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:So resentment is a very common, typical feeling when it comes to caring for an aging parent or a sick person in the family because it's unexpected,
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:You life was life and you were moving, and suddenly you have to like pause for this other person who a lot of times is very, needy strong, they like demand
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yes.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:a bit. And so your life is turned upside down. Resentment is completely normal. And so I want to stress, again, sounding like a broken record, right? You have to, you can't ignore your feelings, right? If you're feeling resentful, right? There's also a need associated with that, right? So whether it's you need help from siblings because you can't carry the load by yourself, whether you feel like this person, this parent didn't really appreciate you, and now they're needing something, like have to get those feelings out. It starts on paper or in your right? With the journaling, but then it ends with actually telling people how you're feeling, right? I wanna go into this thing of unless you're an only child, there are other people who also share the set of parents.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:that's right.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:And so a lot of times the journey can be long. So as long as there's equity right between the siblings, then it works. when it starts feeling inequitable or somebody expects equality,
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:huh.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:that it gets tricky because I may have a season in my life where my son is a second semester senior, and there are a lot of things, there are a lot of things I wanna be present for and I wanna be there for him. And my sibling may be in a different stage of life where they don't have that, like that specific need. So for this five, six months, I may say, listen, I really wanna be here for my son. Could you please take care of
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Right?
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:right for me during this time, right? We've gotta share the load and make sure everything's covered. And yet still that nobody feels like they're over sacrificing.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Or doing? Doing more. More than they can. So I think that's some of it too. there's a village
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:you can lean on, right? And if you're feeling resentful, you're probably not using your village as much as you could either from an emotional standpoint or a physical standpoint.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:So let's pause for a second and hold on to the idea of the village because that, that conjured up sort of cultural norms. And I want us to talk about, from your experience, particular cultural norms that, that either. provide the support that you take care of your family or some cultural norms where you don't. So I think about the following things that come to mind growing up. don't, you don't ever put grandma in a home, I don't wanna put'em in the home. down to who cares for you the foods that you eat. caregiving in the cultural context can look and feel like a tug a TA push and pull in today's society. my, my mother's don't put me in shady ponds, right? she's thinking about you.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yes.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:And Miss Sophia, he's don't put me in shady Pines. He would rather be home. And some of the things that we thought about when my husband and I, moved to Georgia, from New York, the first thing we thought, now this is 2007. my mom by the way, is 71. she's still going strong and she's doing well. Just had a second knee replacement, so she's ready to, whit'em fans at, she, she ready for boots on the ground. Okay.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:but we thought, make sure we have a bedroom on the first floor just in case anything, whether it was us or my mom or his mom at the time. We don't, we didn't wanna have to worry about stairs and make sure there was a bathroom attached. so we thought about those things. eh, just good to have. Now that my mom is older, we're thinking even more make sure, like we can prove to how, because she said no, shady pine. So
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:right.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:again, in your experience, just holding on to this cultural idea of this village and caregivers share, I don't know, your expertise or stories or testimonies around how do families of color have these conversations? If there is a need for assisted living or memory care that can't happen in the home.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. first I wanna say respecting cultural is really important, right? but it's not important because it's the way things should be, right? The word should, and I tell people, just take it out of your vocabulary because who says I have so many questions when somebody says I should do this. but it's a choice, it's a preference, right? You said your mom has made this very clear. That's not her preference, right? So we're gonna respect that. We're gonna respect that to be able to give her all the things that she needs, not because she should have it, but because you want to be able to give that to her, and maybe you're blessed to be able to do that, right? So these are all choices. I struggle, I work with a lot of, people of color and there are a lot of like expectations around the last stage of life and who takes care of who and all of that. those are good conversations to have early, right? Because if you can and want to, yes, do it right, but if you can't, and then that's an honest conversation. That's a conversation that needs to happen, right? I, there is no right answer of how to do this. So it's like it's customized for you, right? I have a cousin who, just lost her mom recently. And, the first thing that she texted me was, everybody's got their opinions. People are making me feel so bad for the way I am handling her last days, right? And pe by people, she meant our aunts, to be clear, like our family, right? It wasn't people on the street, it was everybody in the family. And I said, you don't have to pick up what they're putting down. You don't have to, you don't have to pick up judgment by other people who aren't living in your shoes.'cause this journey is hard, right? And so you only do what you can do and you also have to take care of yourself in the process, right? That nobody else is gonna really step in and do that for you. So cultural norms deserve respect, but you gotta take care. Of the person who's doing Yes.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:how do you have that conversation? I, I'm, you said start early. What would that sound like? I don't know, real play it with me. I'm taught with my own children, right? So I have a 23-year-old and 25-year-old, both sons. And, what do I, what do we say? What, I don't open that conversation.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. that's a very vulnerable conversation. I know. So it, it has to include how you're feeling about it. Like they've gotta lean in to understand why you want what you want, right? The list of demands is just a blank list of words on paper, unless they really understand where it's coming from, right? So the conversation isn't about, these are my, like this is the way it's gonna go. The conversation is about this is what I'm afraid of. this is what I'm feeling. About this next stage of life.'cause we are getting a little closer. When you said earlier, like 30 years ago, I was like, it has been 30 plus years. Yeah. Like it's, this life thing is going right really quickly. So you've gotta be able to, to have that vulnerable conversation, especially with your children. Yeah. this is a space that's safe. so it sounds like, you know, I'm really afraid of getting older and, or I'm really afraid of being sick. This runs in my family and I'm really afraid of these things like that. that's the seeds that start these conversations of, this runs in our family and I'm really afraid, If you see this, please let me know. those are the conversations that kind of engage them in your aging process. And then when the time's You say these are my preferences, because I don't want, I don't want a stranger to be, the first person I see in the morning. So I prefer to be with family. It doesn't have to be you necessarily. But I prefer to be with people that love me. Those kinds of that kind of transparency Yeah. Will become important. But it's not one conversation. It's a series leading up to, as you see signs of yourself aging and you get more afraid sit down and have a conversation. this is the way I'm thinking, this is the way I'm feeling.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. That's, I. That, guidance and advice gave is critical to maybe breaking some of the, I don't know if it's, the taboo around talking about aiding, talking about, caregiving, talking about death and dying. I or I'm in
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:health, Especially with our black men.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. Oh my goodness, yes, for sure. so a couple of things that come to mind. So my best friend had a series of losses in her life over the past three years, and her mother died on this unexpectedly, and it was devastating. this is my bestie, who I've known since we were three years old. And, he's her mother's testimony, even in her death when her mother passed as she was getting things prepared. And in that. Most vulnerable grieving space. Her mother left this box in her closet. In the box was password. All of her things. Her the plot where she had written some parts of a, she was writing a book. And so that became part of obituary, like she left the instructions For what to do in case thing. that's that one piece that actually spurred me and my husband to have the conversation with my mother and say, mom, I know you are not ill at this point, but anything can happen. What do you want? So what you just said, what are your wishes? And we met with state attorney and. And got it. Like it was hard to do all the things she had to pull, but it's done. I know exactly what my, and that is the first time in family anyone has had a legal document around wishes. We've had wills and certain, but like wishes, what to do if they're unable to speak or talk or, all of those. Where do the cats go? My mom has cats where, who gets the cats, right? Yes. what happens to her assets or things of that nature. Things that take so many years later that pull families apart. I, I just thought while such a tragedy, what a legacy blessing her mother left Yes. For us to learn. So something about what are some other teachable moments happen in this journey of caregiving or. of our families passing. What other examples can you think of that maybe we all need to know and learn?
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:I think the, you mean during the aging process itself? I mean during the caregiving itself. Yeah. what I love about the example you just gave is that it removes so much anxiety around what, because as our aging parents get older and get closer to that time of transition. Yeah. We start thinking about those things like financial impact and what are their wishes and what am I gonna do? But then when they actually pass Yeah. And we start the actual grieving process, the first part of the grieving process is usually denial. Yeah. So we're in this space of a numb. We are not feeling anything. We're just like existing and sometimes unable to function, but there is a whole lot of noise saying, you need to do this, you need to do this, you need to do this. And you're trying to make decisions, right? You're trying to make decisions and you're not, you don't have the capacity to do So that is not only a blessing and a gift to the caregiver to, to have those conversations and have everything planned out, but it also is respectful to the person who's actually, aging. Or sick. so I love that. I think there's, one thing that we have to be careful of is, burnout, right? Yes. Caregiver burnout because it's a lot of work, and suddenly you're like, you're exhausted. You're not sleeping well, you're not eating well because you're spending so much time and energy doing this thing and maybe also trying to be parent, wife in all the other roles. Yeah. Yeah. So it's too much. It's too much. And so it's important to, as soon as this process starts to really focus on self-care. and self-love. So when I say journal, I say at the end, every journal entry with something that's positive. Something you're grateful for, something that you're proud of, just to feed your soul.'cause a lot of times journaling can be on the negative side. So it's important to keep that positivity and uplift yourself and surround yourself with people who also. Lift you up so you don't feel like this huge burden.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. So we talked a lot about the things that you do, right in terms of caregiving for someone, and we talked about these emotions, that are tied to them. These, this vulnerability, this idea of resentment.'cause this is unexpected, these opportunities that it can bring for families to reconnect in a different way. But let's talk about this self, this wellbeing aspect, this tug in this hood, right? let me go back to, I'm a doer. I'm an achiever, and I'm gonna achieve the heck outta caregiving too. I'm a do the darn thing.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:I'm do the darn thing. Yes,
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:I'm gonna be the best caregiver ever. and at the same time, the sacrificing. Of care. it would be no good to both of us to sit laying across from each other in the hospital room. Yes. so how do caregivers take care of, and how do they get over guilt of having a day off, the guilt behind, affecting some piece about what do we do?
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Because I can see that happening with me. I can see it.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. Self-care is so broad and it's not the same for everybody. Okay. There's some people, I met with a couple actually this morning who I was just like, I would love to tell you to go out on a date night, but really, I think I just need to tell you to take a nap. Like together. Take a nap. Because they were so exhausted with good reason, right? Yeah. So you gotta take care of yourself the way you need to be taken care of, right? So whether that's you need somebody else to take care of you as you're taking care of this other person that's completely legit, right? Oftentimes when we have kids, when we have our first baby, for example, right? The woman will say, I will take care of the baby.'cause I have, I'm breastfeeding, I'm doing all the things right, but I just need someone to make sure that I'm taking care of me. So I need like an accountability partner to take care of me. this is much the same, right? If you have a partner or a friend that can be that accountability partner for you to say, listen, you look really tired, like how much sleep are you getting? That kind of thing. So surrounding yourself with people who can do that for you, but then you also have to create a new routine. We all live by some kind of routine, but when this happens and we start on this journey, that routine has to change. You cannot keep the same routine and just add this on. So to incorporate things like the basics, make sure I'm eating I have an eating schedule, make sure that I'm sleeping and I have a bedtime routine, which means I'm off my phone, I'm maybe doing a meditation, I'm journaling, like I'm doing all the things to feed me and my soul so that I can sleep well. Yeah, right? And then clear my mind. make sure I'm eating, sleeping, and moving. We've gotta move. Can't just go from this, the. Desk, office chair to the bedside chair, right? We've gotta move, we've gotta get ourselves, to get, help our brain fun function differently. We've gotta move. That doesn't mean that you have to be the first person in, fastest person in the spin class, right? It just means go take a walk, Make it consistent, a consistent part of your every day. So those, when we think self-care, those are the first things that come to mind. Eat, sleep, move. Yeah. Gotcha. and
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:one of the things yeah, talked about was it's a new. Routine. And you said incorporate, I think the word integration when some people say, I'm trying to look for balance, right? It is I no such thing as actual balance, right? It's this. Even though we keep using that word. And, my co-author, shes integration and she's it's how you fit this into this new normal that you're creating at this moment. Because there are times where you have to give something up to do this, and then there's some, the pieces that you're gonna have to pivot to here, but always keeping it in mind. you also have to fill your bucket, right? It's to put the mask on before helping others. Otherwise you won't be able to do that. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. That sounds, I mean it's, it makes a. Logical sense. it
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:sounds so simple, right?
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Sounds so simple. But when you're in the middle of it, when you're in the tornado, yes. When it seems the dark, right? When your parents, potentially, those who are suffering from dementia or forgetting who you are when there's agitation, because they were so used to being dependent, they don't want their children to them, right? There's pride, there is, This, that, that vulnerability again, yeah. for instance, those who are taking care of, just even navigating that space, it, it's harder than what you describe. And so what else can caregivers do to keep the faith or. Or to manage that of tension when, if I see my mom and my mom forgets my name or Right. That's, I go to hug her and she, it pushes away. Or I just wanna help her put a sweater on. She says, no. And I'm talking about aging, but they also could, our children who we would love to see grow up and maybe who is not gonna grow up the same I grew up, how, what else can I do to manage my, in that space? Yeah.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:for, I just wanna take a second to say, for those listening who are, Dealing with parents with dementia or Alzheimer's or any of the things that, that is one of the hardest diseases because, it takes away all of their agency, but so slowly. Yeah. it's, you're constantly adjusting. and so I often tell my clients who are helping manage an aging parent with dementia or Alzheimer's is that first you have to educate yourself so you understand what's going on, right? It is, it's easier to separate facts versus fears in your brain if you understand the facts. Anxiety comes from the fears of the future. So if you're grounded in this is what's happening, it's easier. Never easy. But easier
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:to
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:push through some of those things that happen. Not taking them personally, but understanding that this is the way the brain is now working. but it's even a, like more important that you have those people around you who can remind you of all the good things that you're doing, despite the reaction that you're getting from your parents. Yeah. Yeah. Remind you that you're all kinds of good enough. And that you're doing the best and they can see it. Sometimes you need an external reinforcer.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. Thats the village you were talking about. Yes. Yeah. the theme I keep hearing you say throughout this is idea of these multi multilayered support. So as a caregiver providing this level of love, compassionate support to my loved one, at the same time, I am getting passionate support from either family members, friends, maybe it's medical professionals, maybe it is, maybe it is joining a support group. this is a support group. we are, we're building this conversation is another piece of support. Sure.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:and how does, yeah, I gonna say just that, I hate to interrupt, but No, you mentioned like support group and resources. Yes. and I often get the question like, how do I know when I need a therapist? Or how do I know when I need a different level of care? and so my first answer is always, it doesn't hurt just to have that layer of support. So signing up for therapy or counseling or even a church group, It is just, it's, you're setting yourself up for success by having that level of support. It's not saying something's wrong with me today, but it's saying, I know I'm headed for a really tough journey and I need this. but if there's a point where the anxiety and sometimes depression, I can't get out of bed. yeah. Feelings start coming in right then. It's definitely time to seek. Higher level of care Yes. Than just like a friend to talk to if you find yourself not being able to function like you did before.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. I thank you for actually bringing that in, because there's this very complex and very nuanced. I'm also thinking about, people who are in their own, relationships with a spouse or a, significant other who's not, it's not their immediate, parent, but their experience this along this journey, trying to maintain that relationship at the same time, work to. Support your parent or loved one who is experiencing, an illness or aging. and so I, I wanna also bring that, like the challenges of dating or maintaining a healthy spousal relationship amidst this layer as well. can you talk a little bit about that?
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:yeah. And I think they're really two separate things, right? The established partner is very different from the dating, which is very complicated. So let's start with, let's start with the easier one. Let's the partner, right? Once you guys You guys at some point said, we are a team. Yeah, We're a team in parenting. We're a team in living. We're a team in preparing for retirement. We're a team in all the things. So in a healthy relationship, it is that, that, that's a lens with which from which you function. This is no different. So it's about talking about it early and often. This is what's happening. This is what I'm hearing, this is what I'm feeling. How are you feeling? and giving your partner space to say, if this is becoming too much, let's do something differently, because this is now, especially if you have children, Your partner may see that it's impacting your children differently than you do because you're living in it. You're so much closer to it. So being able to work as a team with your partner is really important. and setting boundaries. I may not be able to do X, Y, and Z anymore because now I'm dealing with this. Could you please do this? Again, I can't like, just thinking of it as a team Will naturally like it. it'll encourage things like conversations and strategies and tactics and plans together. So that it doesn't have to come in between, if you will, you and your partner the other side for those who are, trying to, to date and find maybe a potential partner. Yeah. While they're going through this, it's possible. Yep. It's totally possible because you are more than, this is something that you're going through. This does not define you. So you're still that lovely, bubbly person. who's goal oriented and fun and all the things. You're still that person. You just are going through a really. Tough, challenging season. So to communicate that early is really important. So you don't have to hide it. It's not a piece of yourself that you have to hide. It's actually a piece that you need to put forward. Because if you're dating somebody who can't understand and appreciate how you're showing up for your parent because this is what you want to do, maybe it's not your person and it's probably better to know that early. Yeah. Your values may be different. And this is just an exhibition of that.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah. So we've talked about a number of things and there's three Cs that came. Lemme make sure I have my notes Look at you the first No, I'm listen. I'm a good listener. first was communication comm needs, and also com communicating. Emotions. Yes. Second was compassionate, right? Being compassionate with the person you're taking care of because of what they are experiencing, but also self-compassion, being compassionate with who you are. And then the third C is community. These layers of support, whether they are, expert support for much deeper and more personalized support or therapist to really understand and unpack those feelings and then these layers of support to help you with compassionate communicating needs. I heard those three Cs. So as we come just this, we can talk for about 10 more hours and it's still wouldn't be enough. Why? That's why this is a series because we wanna have different voice, different lived experiences and stories so that there's a rich, conversation being had for those of us who are experiencing, we are the sandwich generation. We're taking care of love, our aging parents and our children. yes. What would be some sort of lasting for right now lasting. Advice or words of wisdom you wanna leave people as they continue on their journey or think about what this might mean for them in an in their stop journey of caregiving.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:I, no matter where you are in the journey, one thing's for sure is that this is both an act of love and a profound challenge. it is not all good or all bad. You talked about community and Part of our community are also our children being part of the sandwich generation. So there, there is actually things that our children can learn by watching the way we. Deal with this. They can also, not that, it's not a cookie cutter thing, They're not gonna learn how to, how we wanna be treated, because that's may look very different from the way our parents wanted to be treated, but it teaches them compassion and empathy. And it shows them like real time. And they can be involved. I encourage that actually in age appropriate ways. So if my child's learning to read, I may say, oh, why don't you go read to your grandmother? Yeah. so that's, they should, they probably shouldn't be like, changing diapers or Not not anything inappropriate, but to have them involved as opposed to, I think a lot of people shield their kids from it because it's hard. Yeah. And I think there's much more, there's much more positive to learn to take out of it. Same thing with us. I do think there's a lot more positive that we can take out of this journey, this part of our journey than it's given credit for A lot of people focus on how hard it's, yeah. And it's hard. But at the same time, if you can, by the time your aging parent has transitioned, if you can say, wow, I know my parent a little bit better than I did before. I understand his or her journey more than I did before. Actually, I feel closer now than I did six months ago. Yeah. To this person. and then maybe even after they've passed live in their honor, because you know them so much better, right? So I think it's a gift. It is a gift to be able to do this.
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:I watched the journey of one of our No sisters. she boosted the journey of her mom who was experiencing dementia. she eventually passed away recently and one of the things posting was not just, how her caregiving, experience was going, but she was posting these moments of her mom. One of the things she posted was her mom's hands in her mom's hands. And she was like, I know it's very emotional. She says, but my mom's hands are my hands. Yes. And the on. So can you talk about this act of love that moment captured in a quick photo of these hands or hands?
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Yeah,
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:just left a legacy of act, of love, and I would say not even profound challenge, profound compassion. Yeah. So Dan, I love it. Thank you for this beautiful conversation. I laugh because there's some bits and pieces of it that, you can find joy and to be able to find joy in the challenge. It shows, there's something spiritual about that, and I appreciate you sharing your insights, your expertise. I'm so glad that you made the transition from, business to psychopath because such a, that's such a logical jump. I know, right? Who would've, but there is something about understanding how your emotions help you make decisions. So there you're still tapping the same. So I, we covered so much here and, this navigating of this emotional toll on caregiving, but I think this other layer, you really elevated again, this idea that this is an act of love within the profound challenge. And I think we can leverage. This, this spiritual, sense of caregiving in the most honorable way we can with our parents, and with those who we are caring for. So thank you.
danielle-boucree-lcsw-c--her-she-_1_03-26-2025_123744:Absolutely. Thank you. Thank so for having me. Such
dr--kendra-washington-bass--she-her-_1_03-26-2025_123744:a pleasure. This was fantastic. so all of you who are listening, this is still another part of the season. I wanna thank everyone tuning in. This has been a incredible, series and we will continue. We hope you found this, we extremely helpful, and we can encourage you to continue following us along the way as we explore more aspects of caregiving. And we also gonna provide some further support and resources and upcoming sessions. Don't miss the next part of our Caregiving with Dignity series, where we will dive into some more tips, some more strategies. To help you along the way, and for more on Caregiving with Dignity, please visit us@thinknd.edu. So next time, see you soon, and go Irish.