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Indigenous Voices, Part 4: Personal Narratives in a Public Space

May 02, 2025 • Think ND

Episode Topic: Personal Narratives in a Public Space

Join the Raclin Murphy Museum of Art to experience recordings from Indigenizing Museums, a two-day symposium amplifying the voices of Indigenous artists and curators, made possible by generous funding from the Terra Foundation for American Art. “Personal Narratives in a Public Space,” the final panel, brings together artists David Ocelotl Garcia, Jamie Okuma, and Dana Warrington for presentations and a panel discussion about how they infuse their personal stories into works that are designed to be in conversation with a wider community, without revealing too much of themselves, or making these personal narratives vulnerable to exploitation by institutions and systems.

Featured Speakers:

David Ocelotl Garcia, artist
Jamie Okuma, artist
Dana Warrington, artist

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/06f539.

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Indigenous Voices.

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0:06

Hello everyone. Welcome to the afternoon session. Thank you all so much for coming, for sticking around for hopefully having coffee and great conversation and time. so I'm delighted to announce the last session, this session was going to be Moderat, moderated by Dr. Ashley Bird, who unfortunately can't be here. So I'm gonna step in and I will serve as the moderator for this session. So you're not done with me yet. this session is all about personal narratives in a public space and what we really wanted to talk with is how artists tell these really personal stories, that are designed for, to communicate with the public. But how do you do that in such a way that you don't reveal too much of yourself or that institutions can then take advantage of those personal narratives. So that's what we're gonna be looking at in this session. so we're going to be hearing from David Asla Garcia. Jamie Kuma and Dana Warrington, and I'm going to be reading all of their bios quickly and then we will follow the same format we've been following throughout the day. David Dasla Garcia is a Colorado based artist accomplished across several medias, including painting, sculpture, and murals. His work can be seen in public art commissions and in both museums and private collections. David discovered his natural ability and passion for fine art at the age of 11. His early work consisted of life drawing and water-based sculpture, which he created at Art Student League of Denver. By the age of 18, David was assigned, assisting professional muralist and sculptor of monumental bronze art. His own work now ranges from large scale, interior and exterior murals painted directly on existing surfaces, panels, cloth, and canvas, as well as mosaic and sculpture. Through self mediation and cre creative exploration, David has developed his own technique and philosophy on painting and sculpture that he has coined Abstract imagination. Abstract imagination is a style of art that combines the ponta, spontaneity and unpredictability of abstraction with the creativity and perception of imagination. David is most influenced by the movement of, atomic energy and its effect on all living things. It is through art that David hopes to manifest beauty, inspiration, color, and energy. Dana Warrington is Menominee Prairie Band. Potawatomi is based in Kenesha, Wisconsin. he is multidisciplinary artist who blends contemporary perspectives with centuries old traditions and practices with 30 years of experience and cultural beliefs, he wants to continue the tradition of tribal art within his family and community. Warrington engages with youth through art programs, where they blend modern themes with tribal beliefs and insights to ensure that the survival of the, of traditional art. His tribal artwork is exhibited at the Rockland Murphy Museum of Art at the University of Notre Dame, the Ijo Museum, the Forest County Potawatomi Museum. He won numerous awards at Indian art markets, as well as, the tri at Tribal Dance Competitions across North America. Jamie Kuma, a Luno, Shoshone Bak Waki, and Okinawa is also enrolled member of the, LA Jolla Band of Indians in Southern California where she lives and works. she specializes in one of a kind pieces that she hand executes in all details of the process. She also designs ready-to-wear fashion as early as Kuma can remember her life, has been in the world, in one way or another. After high school, Okuma took graphic design classes at the Palmore College in San Marcos, California before attending the Institute of American Indian Arts in Santa Fe, New Mexico. From the age of 18, she had been the professional artist completely devoted to her art, exhibiting her work at the Herd Indian Market in Phoenix, Arizona. And at the Santa Fe Indian Art Market, she has garnered a total of seven best of show awards, four from the herd and three from the Santa Fe Indian Market. She's one of only two artists to have achieved such, this distinction. Okuma has recently become the first Native American inducted into the Council of Fashion Designers of America, CFDA. her work is in the permanent collections of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, the Minneapolis Institute of Art, the Nelson Atkins Museum of Art, the Denver Art Museum, the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian, among others, including the Lin Murphy Museum of Art. so thank you all for attending this panel and we will kick it off with David. Hello, with respect to the original, peoples of this land. thank you for sharing your space with me. my name is David Garcia. I'm a sculptor and painter. and as Jared mentioned, I'm out of, Denver, Colorado. my family is from Central Mexico, from Guadalajara and Guanajuato and, traditions of the Mexican and OMI people. And, Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here with you all, in this sort of environment sharing, stories about our art and how that connects us to our people and how beautiful the culture is. I think that's one of my favorite things about art is the culture that is embedded in all the colors and designs. And it's what I think makes this world beautiful is all our different, origins and how we portray them. And excuse me. I'm gonna share a little bit about, what I do in regard to my public work. but I'm gonna start off with a bit of my philosophy, and. I started at the age of 11 creating my art, and it's been such a exciting journey, but also scary at the same time. I'm basically self-taught, because of my reality. I didn't have any specific opportunities that led me to studying in a specific place, but it was actually a blessing for me because it's allowed me to really be myself, and really try to develop my own style and my ideas behind my work. And I've come to the conclusion and feel real passionate about the energy of art. I talk about that a lot. It influences me very much, and it kind of inspires and fuels like my creative thoughts. And When I view art and I'm around art, I just think it's full of energy and I've been contemplating that really my whole life. and I always discover something new about what that means to me and how that influences people. But, in a more simpler way, I've come to the conclusion as far as talking about it, that our, the energy of art, whether we are making it or, viewing it, it really, elevates our capacity to think more critically and creatively about the world around us. it engages our mind, body, and spirit in a really profound and magical, way that just allows us to have a deeper connection and ultimately elevates our creative capacity. abstract imagination is something I came up with at a certain point in my career because I somewhat torn at times discussing art, intellectualizing art.'cause I feel like for me, art is very much something I feel. And so at times I don't like to be influenced by what I'm supposed to feel about it. And so I'm very much into the feeling of art. And abstract imagin is, was just a way for me to try to share with you my personal opinion about how I create my art. And in many ways my style of art doesn't make sense. It shouldn't work together, but. It does for me. And I've always been inspired by, my reality, but I'm real passionate about abstract work because I feel like it's so spontaneous. It's so unpredictable, And I feel like that's the essence of the energy that I feel. It's just something that happens in the moment. And so there's been artists that I've studied throughout the world that have this capacity just to be spontaneous and just create, but I also like to tell stories. And so in that realm of storytelling, I have these more figurative thoughts, more, ideas that are more, I guess realistic in some ways that have figures, that have some distinct shapes that you can maybe understand that's a person or that that's, A bird or whatever that is. And so the only way to make myself feel better is to try Toi combine those together. and and so that meant that I had to just allow myself to be creative in my own way. But because I wanted to talk about it a little bit, I was like, I think what I'm doing is abstract and I'm using my imagination. And so what about if I put that together? And so some of this imagery, illustrates that a little bit of how, I'm using this something that might not necessarily make sense to you, but then you see like someone's face, So I'm trying to like, not confuse you, but I'm trying to engage your creative thinking of what it might be, but also keep you interested in what you do see that is familiar. And that's a little bit about my style and I won't go more into that.'cause I wanna show you more about, stay on the topic of the, how I share some of this, work. The piece here, that I have at the museum, the title is in that word comes from, it's a traditional Mexican word. So is in awa is the language of the Mexican people, the original language.'cause Spanish is not the original language, of Mexico. So sometimes, it's an interesting thing that most, a lot of Mexican people speak Spanish, but that's not their original language. So it's Anyway, the, this is in, awa, if you've ever heard of that word, is the language of Mexico original language. So translates to feathered serpent. And I think that, many of you probably have encountered that somehow some way, like the idea of feathered serpent and, it's definitely romanticized and popular in many ways. So I don't know what version you've seen before. but the interesting thing about that piece is that it's, it started as an evolution. So if you see, I put some dates on there, 2009 to 2022. And that's not how long it took me, but rather it's been, I'm capturing how long it took to get to that point, because I actually started that piece as just a model. To create a bigger piece. So as a maquette, use that term in sculpting, they use the word maquette to create like a sample version of something that's gonna be bigger. And so it's been really interesting that way. And, and that's what the dates there. And I'll be more specific there in a minute. so when I was creating, Ko, my mind went right away to my time in Mexico City, in the museum there, anthropology Museum. And I was just so captured and captivated by the energy and all this sculptural pieces. I don't know if you've never visited Mexico City or been to the Anthropology Museum, it's amazing. it, it takes a few days to just go through this museum. And so anyway, I was real, I remembered how. Inspired I was by the art there, from the different native tribes in Mexico and they all have their own interpretation of ua. even early, as early as the Mayan com Mayan people in Mexico. And I just wanted to, for me it's really important to understand the symbolism in the work and also to kinda, maintain the aesthetic and purpose of the art itself. And so I have a lot of contemporary thoughts about making art, but I always feel compelled to try to maintain the traditional meaning of the symbolism of the art itself. So the symbolism in the piece that I created is very significant, but was certainly honoring the original. Symbolism that inspired me. And one of the things that I did with this piece,'cause I consider this piece very much a graphic design sculpture, but as I was talking about, I love to explore reality as way, at least as, as, as much as I can imagine. So I have a photo of a rattlesnake, and that was really influential in my sculpting because I almost wanted the sculpture to feel like it was alive by having you, by exploring what is a rattlesnake's body, how does it like rest? Or like how does it move and how do I use that in a graphic way to try to build my sculpture? So as I was talking about, the maquette and the maquette I was building, You probably can't see it here. I have, I don't have very good, I started trying to get better at documenting my work.'cause I used to just go off and just and people still try to bug me. They're like, how come you don't film that? It's if I stop and film all this stuff I'm doing, like I'll never get anything done. And I know I do wanna share it. I do want, to share it with everyone. Which is also why I don't do social media things.'cause I feel like I can't stop like once I'm going, I'm going through. But anyway, if you look at, I don't know if you can tell from what you're sitting, but at the very back of me is actually the beginnings of that sculpture that you would see here. But I never really finished it fully. It was real crude and it was just more just to gimme an idea. But I did some color compositions too.'cause I'm really like obsessed with color as if you can believe that I'm like. I love color.'cause color has so many, vibrations that comes off of it, And I had this little, color rendering and marker and I was like, oh, the body's gonna have all this design on it. And again, I'm really graphic in nature in regard to my design work, but I ended up totally recomposing this, sculpture, into this piece that stands up on end on its tail. If you could see it's all on one like ring. And, I don't know why I do, I always do that. I always start with something. I'm like, yeah, that's, and then I change it on the fly and I'm like, why didn't I stick to my plan? And I don't know, I just always switching it up. But anyway, it was to build this, this piece is about, and again, I'm so bad at documenting this. I never actually took pictures. Of the finished piece. so this piece, stands on end, but is essentially the whole, if you were to take that piece here from the museum and re reconfigure him, he's exactly the same. His designs are the same. The only difference is the scale. And that happened in 2009. Okay. and this actually took me a year in this space, in this, room that you see there. One whole year. I spent there almost every day working on this sculpture for a year. I was like in this I was hypnotized. And so then in 2022, roughly, I actually. came back to the sculpture that I had kinda roughly created and like it, and then it became its own thing. it was like, for me it was just something that is, it was connected to that original one, but the way I see it now, it was, it's a piece that wanted to be its own thing. Like it has its own significance, separate from the original idea. And, and so this is what, the result was, is having this piece here, this piece that ended up here at the museum. But some of the things I wanted to share about this piece, in regard to the symbolism.'cause you might, again, like I was saying earlier, you can appreciate art for what it is. I love that. But when you get more info about it, that's also important too. so you understand it. I think as artists, if you're doing work that has a message, especially if it's, design work, it's good to be able to share that, what that means,'cause people understand it on a deeper level. But for me, this piece, a few, a couple a few things was the, so in, in my tradition, the al is representing a direction. if you've ever heard of the four directions like that, this is Alcoa is the direction to the east when the sun's rising. So it's all this idea of, metaphors. They're metaphors for our reality and our perspective in nature. And so if you can think of Al now, if you ever look to the east and you see that sunrise, and that's al and also symbolizes duality, and energy. And then something that is real creatively inspiring to me always is, the duality. But what is duality? is it people? Is it fire and water? Is it, duality? And in this instance, the duality is sky and earth. And so the earth itself is al We are walking on al the earth itself. So that's a little bit about that piece. I love this. I love this topic, which I was excited about, personal narratives and public spaces. really glad Jared put me in this space here. cause I think it does speak to my public art, in many ways. this mural here, This is my first public art piece was a mural. and so it was so very personal, for sure, real personal, because I was like really exploring all this symbolism and design work, from my ancestors. And, this piece in 2007, and it's called, it's Hummingbird Warrior. And I didn't have any, really any clue. I never had personal experience with public art. I had studied a lot of things about public art and things like that, but it's one of those things, until you experience it yourself, it almost doesn't make sense, And so for this piece is such a memorable piece, and not only, and that's not why I am starting with it, but it is because. It really directed me to where I am now. And it just sits in my mind. It just always lives in my mind like that. Like it's like something that as far as I can take my art, I gotta always remember where I started. For some reason I feel compelled like that. So I wanted to share that. And the beautiful part about this in regard to, the kind of the public spaces, like how that influences your community. This mural has had its life of its own. And to be honest, public art does that. Public art transcends the artist. it goes beyond what you anticipate doing with it as the artist. So really you're just a vehicle when you're doing public art that is in this realm that is very personal. You just become a vehicle for the stories that you want to talk about that are either really talking about. Where you come from. And so I was able to engage with so many people on this. And can you imagine, this is my first piece. I don't really know a lot about public art, but I get so much support and community and kids, the kids working with me on this piece. Like I felt like I had this sort of like team like community of team of people that we were working together. I never really had that be before I did this in regard to creating art. And so I like that feeling. I like sharing it with the kids and sharing what this means, as you're making it. Because this is one of the first things that I realize now, it's about the journey of creating the public piece. That journey that you take from beginning to end is what really I'd like to try to like, absorb,'cause I think that's what. You. That's what uplifts me the most. But yeah, it, in, in Denver this is, in a kind of a really industrial commercial area. It's like a desert. It's just dead. there's no color, there's nothing. And so there's people live there and there's these kids that live there. So this was a community center, it's called Sisters of Color, community center. And, it was just amazing. I pretty much lived here, the whole time. I like lived there. I was always there. I was inside, I was outside. And people were like, oh, I came to, are we gonna paint? yeah, let's get to it, and let's start working. And, it was just such an amazing experience. And it was, if you look here, I also have a couple of my friends and I wanted to honor them by showing them, because one of'em is a really close friend of artist mine, Carlos Sandoval, and he's from San Luis. San Luis Colorado and he's such an amazing artist. He's my favorite artist next to famous, fa, famous artist.'cause he's not really like super well known, but in my eyes he's one of my favorite. And then the other gentleman to his, to my right in the photo is, Luis Avarca. And he's like a warrior in his own self in Denver in regard to what he's done for the community there in Denver. for artists, for brown artists, And he's a collector actually. He was, he's no longer with us, but that guy inspired me so much'cause he's nothing could hold him back in his thoughts. And he was the one that was like, you go big and do whatever you want, and travel everywhere. And so he really started making me think about the big art world around me. But very important piece to, to my city, to my community. and actually I have a, if I don't take up too much time, I'll try to show you a video of this piece.'cause it actually got what we call whitewashed. It got erased, in the process of time, and it actually became, an opportunity to speak about how we can't be erased. We're here to stay. And so it has a lot of, it's its own thing at this point. the next piece I wanted to share, I call or the journey, and this is in a park called Raza Park in, in Denver. And it's a really significant place for the, for the Chicano and Mexican community there. And, This, if you could see the structure of the building there, it's very Mexican na native shaped piece of, or architecture. And it's, it's a place where they do, ceremony. They have a ceremony there twice a year there for, or day of the dead. and for, for the summer solstice, they would do ceremony there too. And I had the opportunity, and so this is considered part of the collection of Denver's public art. And there's this, we, they call it kioko or gazebo. And so inside it was just empty. and when I walked in there, I let, when I go into a public space that I want to work in, I just let the energy of the environment. Influence how I'm feeling, And I don't really purposely do that, but I just do it naturally and it works that way. But when I walked in there, I automatically went like this, cause I'm like, whoa, what can I put in here? And I, and as I was doing that, I was realizing that should be the movement of the mural.'cause if you view this in there, it takes you in this spiral, And it's okay, the journey, you start thinking of sometimes when you make art, you're like, what the heck am I gonna call this thing? So if I, what am I gonna call it? No title. anyway, that influenced the movement of this. And then I wanted to tell this story of the, of how, we, we as Mexican native people, it's we've been here for a very long time and like with. Through history, it's been these imaginary borders, that's yours. This is mine. And so I always wanted to show how my people, my stories of creation are in here, and how we've traveled and we've evolved and we've experienced political things and things. And so it's very much like this historical representation of how, people came to Colorado, traveled to Colorado and things like that. and so this space here is very significant too because, in Denver people have so many events here. Like I'm talking about personal events, like weddings, quinceaneras, car shows. There'll be all low riders all over the place. and they all go into this space and Photograph themselves and build relationships, I guess what I call with the art. And I love that because I didn't do this for myself. I didn't make this for myself, I made it so that it's, so that it engages you, that, so you feel welcome. And, yeah, that's a little bit about this piece here. again, I'm sharing it because it's a significant thing in Denver regarding people wanting to feel comfortable in this space there. And, I just love that people use it and have meetings and it's just a lot of different things that I'm just like, wow. art really does have a life beyond public art really has a life beyond what you anticipate. One of the interesting projects I got to do at one point in 2020 here, I don't consider myself a political artist at all.'cause I'm like, oh, I hate politics. like politics, like stifle creativity, it's like they're so limited and things like that. But in the realm of public art, it's like sometimes you're just like you. There's no way around it. You have to take it on. you have to try to work with it, work with what you got. And this is, a really unique opportunity. and try not to go into too much detail'cause I just love talking about these things. But, there's an artist named, the artist here, is Who could tell me who that artist is? Sorry, you guys tell me. Rockwell the artist, not the, not me, but the other artist. Norman Rockwell. There we go. he's in my reality, I always remember seeing Norman Rockwell, he's famous, it was like, man, and the dude has skills. No, for sure. And the museum, the history, Colorado, they call History Colorado, our history museum there, they reached out to me. They're like, we're doing this. The Rockwell, we're having the, these four freedoms. if you are familiar or you could look that up, the Four Freedoms by Norman Rockwell. They're coming, they're gonna be in Denver. And we wanna do this collaborative project where we're inviting four artists to recreate the four freedoms. So they invited four of us, and then this did this little political, Selection where we had this hat and we had to just randomly pick without knowing. And it actually was my idea, but I was like, we should have a hat. Or I don't know if I had said hat, but we should have, we shouldn't. The artists shouldn't get to pick what they wanna do.'cause you're like, oh, that's something I wanna do, but it should be like a spontaneous thing. So they made us just not know and actually pick out of a hat, one of the freedoms, and we had to recreate that. And so somehow I ended up with this one, which was the freedom of worship. And I was like, oh man. Yeah. Okay. because I've been thinking so much about this before this, I was thinking about how, religion in religious, spiritually, let's say, I was thinking about what does that mean to me,'cause it's like I don't, I'm involved with my native traditions. and that's what I believe in. But other people have their own beliefs. But then, to be honest, when I'm working in my studio, I feel so passionate about what I'm doing. Like I feel very spiritually elevated in my studio when I'm working. I started contemplating what that means and I was like, this is perfect. I really wanna try to recreate this. And what I was trying to say here is, again, I had a lot of respect for that, that the skill of Norman Rockwell and what he did in this painting. So he has these figures, and they're all, it makes sense. Like I get it. Like I get it. And he tried to. He tried to incorporate other, people in here, but you can't even see him. You know what I mean? try, I think he was supposed to try to use other cultures too, to be inclusive like that. But, for me, I was like, what does this mean to me? And so in my story, I wanted to more focus on what our passion is as a, as individuals. And I, I came up with this idea of instead of them not only not being like, I changed their way they were in the painting, like the composition and like I envisioned that what their passion was had to do with their spirituality. Like what they believed in was their spirituality, like whatever it was. And so I actually picked, in the spirit of Norman Rockwell, of using models and like using actual real life models and things, I was like, I'm gonna pick people from my community. That I wanna honor in this painting that I feel are overlooked in some ways. Like they're so important to my community, but they're so humble that they don't even wanna be, known as leaders. And I'm like, I'm gonna put you as a leader in my painting.'cause I think you're a leader in my, from my eyes, you're a leader. And so I actually reached out to the different people in here and said, Hey, would you be, would you mind being in my painting? and they all agreed. They're like, oh, thank you. Are you sure you want me in there? And I'm like, yeah, I want you in there. And so I try to recreate the people I knew so I know all these people, and what they're holding is their, whatever is it, is that they're passionate about, And so that, so the idea of the freedom of worship is that you are allowed to think however you want to think in regard to what your passion is. And so these little, these symbols within their hands. Are speaking towards what they love about their reality or what they're trying to work on. So some might be artists, some might be, fire keepers, some might be, drummers, things like this. And so that was my interpretation of this. and, I was just really excited to, to try to recreate something that is so important, so I was really honored and excited about that. And then this is, the two, two Bridges Public art project. this is more recent. This is also 2022. But, this project was, really significant too because, visually in Colorado there's not a lot of representation, in public art of any really, na native designs or things like that, or just, there's not a lot, there's a lot of I don't know, things that, to me don't make a lot of sense or that I don't connect with. but anyway, I had the opportunity to do this, bridge. We're actually doing two bridges, but I had the opportunity to do this, bridge project. And again, I went there and it actually cross crosses over the river we have there in Denver is called the Platte River. And I went there and it was just, there's nothing there except for the river. And so I was like, man, I just felt real moved by that space. and the idea is that there was gonna be a bridge, but then what do we, how do we put incorporate art onto the bridge? And I thought of it as like an art walk kind of situation, because there are cars that can drive there, but you can also walk along the side. And, it was a big deal for me because I never imagined that I could do a project of this scale. And it's actually one of the biggest public art projects in the history of Denver. And so I was just like, big time intimidated. I was like, are you? I was like, oh, okay. I'll do it. I was awarded the project, which was I was like, okay, now it's got real, now it's real.'cause I, first I was like, ah, I don't know if I'll get it, and anyway, this piece is, I could talk about this piece for a while too, but I'm just trying to cover some of the points that I think I wanna share. you could see, as far as. The differences of the sculptures that are, that you could view there? the purpose of, one of the biggest purposes of this is try to engage the community too. Because it's a lot of times public art is like made in a big warehouse and then it just pops up out of anywhere and come to the unveiling, everybody and this was different, they wanted to, engage the community, which I'll show you on the next slide. But, I just wanna show you a bit about the bridge and that I wanted to incorporate different creative ideas of how we are connected to the, to nature.'cause if you go there, Denver's pretty hectic, especially nowadays. But in this, with this area, there's so many birds and there's eagles there, there's fox and just different animals that still live there,'cause it's their home. And so I really wanted to talk about how. As urban or as city, we get bigger, the bigger we get, we should still be mindful of the creatures that live there. And I'm trying to like, keep us connected as much as I can to our environment and be respectful to the environment. And so I create these designs that try to give you an idea that we're still human, but we are also trees, And so I used mixed media for this. I pulled out all my, I was like, I have to pull out all my, tricks on this if I wanna try to make something, worth all this effort. So I pulled out the different things. I know like bronze, this is mixed media, so it's bronze, it has mosaic, it has, steel, it has fire elements. and so you could see some of the different pieces here that I created that you'll find, so it's called the, the. Peoples Bridge. That's what I ended up calling Peoples Bridge. I was like, this is the Peoples Bridge of the Sun. Okay. So what I was saying is what the com, when I say community engagement, that's a term that is used as a lot in public art now. It'll say, oh, what kind of community engagement are you gonna do? And there's a lot of things people do, but for me, I really wanted to incorporate the energy of the community into the artwork. And it's like, how do you do that? I had to figure it out myself too. But, what we did, and I say we, and I'm glad I'm saying we, because this was a big team effort. I had over a hundred people working with me on this project. It wasn't just me. I'm just a vehicle. I'm just. A little bit of the whole thing. and so we wanted to create these ceramic portraits of the community. So we did workshops all over Denver actually, to create these self portraits. And again, it is about showcasing the portraits, but it was about the experience of working with the clay. And if you look at the clay, you have all these different designs, in the clay that was really, in some ways abstract, but'cause you're, it's up to you what you wanna do in the clay. But the idea is that we were working together and transferring our energy into this clay. And so then when I took these pieces, and it's, high fire, it's, gla high fire clay, we fired it at a high fi temperature there. And, I created it and embedded it into the artworks. And they're specifically in areas. Strategically. if you saw that corn design, that corn design, you'll see from, you'll see how all the faces are in there. And again, symbolism, I wanted the this to be the energy of the sculptures is the corn, is that the, that corn piece and the people in inside. and one of the things that I really wanted to do with this project is to bring native elders from my community together that, don't often get together'cause they're from different tribes like that. And so I was like, I wanna get these native, elders together and share my project with them.'cause I want to get their feedback, I want to get, maybe I'll get their blessing if I'm lucky like that. And so I invited them into my studio and you'll see there on the far, The far right and then you see them over there. And that was just really special because they really took to the project and were excited about what I was doing. and so that was real special. And they later came out to the site. we had a private unveiling where they blessed the art and it was amazing'cause there was actually two, there was two eagles sitting there the whole time. And there's a lot of more details that we did with this, piece. and what I'm working on right now is, and I've probably taken up so much time, I apologize. I am gonna wrap this up. what I'm working on now is, the second bridge. The bridge of the moon. And you could see all the lines are different. the sun bridge is really sharp edges, and the moon bridge is softer, is smoother, rounder. And we're gonna recreate this project. And then I'm also doing a piece for Chico State, it's called Love Language that talks about the community there and that your voice is powerful. And so I created a design, talking about your voice and how carries energy and how it could be powerful. And then I'm doing a piece in Napa, a mural of 300 foot, 350 feet long mural honoring the history of Napa. And, those are the things I'm working on. So I was gonna show you a video, but I can't take up more of your time. I really appreciate that. And I just wanna thank you for having me here. thank the museum, Jared and Bridget and everyone that's invited me out here. I can't express how much it means to me, but I'm really grateful to be here. Thank you. Okay, good. So I wanna first and foremost give my praise and glory to God. I. I think, I've been through some hard times in my life or some hard places and he showed up at some really pivotal points in my art career. So it's not really fair to talk about it without acknowledging the source. So my name is Dana Warrington. I'm a Menominee Prairie Band Pot Otomy, born and raised in northern Wisconsin in the Menominee territory. So what makes the Menominee so unique is our leadership never broke us into bands. There is only one group of Menominee in the world. you'll find us on 236,000 acres in northern Wisconsin. about 75% of it is forest. So I grew up in the woods. I'm that, country mouse in the city, so to speak. Like a lot of concrete around here. But, Yeah, that's really shaped, my life. just prior to me being born, our ancestors went through 13 years of termination where our federal rights status was terminated. So we came out of that in 1975 as a tribe, and I was born in 1979. So by sharing that, I want to acknowledge the resilience of our ancestors and their fight and their struggle for self-determination. That puts me in the space that I'm in, present day and allows me to do what I love to do because, anything Indian, I'm down. so being, being shaped that way. Growing up, we were immersed in the culture, in the ceremonies, Singing, dancing, artwork, you were so immersed in it that you didn't view it as artwork, you just more viewed it as a way of life. And, I think it shaped my understanding of the world. crazy childhood memory. so one of the most distinctive child childhood memories for me is, mom and dad. Four kids in a station wagon with a, with everything tied up in a tarp on the top of the station wagon on our way to the Paolo. But that back seat of the station wagon is facing backwards. So I knew you that, that remembered them vehicles. Yeah, I was that one that was facing the backwards watching where we came from, so to speak, but. It was growing up, I didn't realize we were financially poor until I was about in the eighth grade, but we were super rich with everything else. family was really tight. like I said, the culture, the language, the understanding, the ceremonies, it, like super blessing in disguise, right? you weren't distracted by this outside world. So everything you can imagine is real. That explains my artwork. I'm one of them way outside the box kind of people. So that upbringing has led me to my first love of art, which is dance. I've been involved in dance for over 40 years. I've been dancing since I was two years old. And I would be safe to say that 95% of tribal people that dance do not see it as art. They see it as culture. You see it as a way of life, a way of connecting identity, but the pure form of expression is the purest form of art. So I think something hit me along the way there. And when you talk about the energy and art, the energy of movement, the dance being an art in its own, and now coming from a family that created those regalias that we danced in, so that love and energy effort, everything that goes in the cre new regalia matched that with the art and the energy of dancing like a superpower, and it's something I didn't realize until just recently within my life, this whole idea and concept of artist. it was 2017 and I was going into Indian markets and people were calling me a artist and I was like, what? Huh. we just never seen it as art, but I guess as I got more exposed to this world, yeah. It's all just pure forms of art. So my dad was influential in this area as far as my dance. we're taught to dance for the ones that can't dance. real near and dear and personal to me. My father had polio. he couldn't walk, so he walked on crutches. In his earlier life, he was in a wheelchair. In his later life, he was a singer. So it was in my teenage years that I understood that I danced from my dad. It was the closest he would ever get to it, and it took on a whole different type of meaning to me, extreme, So my, my life revolves around it really. but that blessing to be able to do that, Dad's in the heart there every step I take my mom. two ways that she really influenced that. One is, mom is pushing 70 years old and if you watched her dance, you would not believe 70. so like the newer generation, they call her the goat. and one time I, one time I, she's so cute. I told her one time, I was like, mom, these girls call you the goat. She said, why do I look real scruffy? But so I kinda had to break that down for mom, but, but she really is, and in a roundabout way, that desire to follow in mom's footsteps in that area has kept me healthy, unintentionally. But to be able to dance, you have to be reasonably healthy. So I'm like 20 pounds over my high school weight. No, not too bad. The second thing that mom did regards in regards to my dancing is, I was about 17 years old and she, I thought it was the meanest thing in the world at the time, but she said, I'm done making your dance outfits if you want, if you wanna wear it, if you want it, learn how to make it. I was like, man, but it set me on a career path that has brought me to where I am now, that, that resilience in the blood and that ability to figure it out, push through, whatever, and figure it out is, it's my passion, it's my love, it's my gift to the world. So she really pushed me. She really pushed me in that direction. grandma, my mom's mom, 10 years, so let me just paint a picture of grandma. Beverly hillbillies, granny clamp it with two Indian braids. That's grandma. she had the build, she had the look, but more importantly than anything, she was a feisty old lady, But my heart, my pure heart, that's where I get my artistry from. grandma was a artist, so spending hours and hours sitting at her kitchen table. she was a bead artist, so did the traditional bead work. she loved to tell stories. I loved to listen to stories, but in hindsight, I realized it was hours and years of sitting. I had her kitchen table watching her hands move. like I, I picked up something. So in a roundabout way, what I do with my cowork, I do woven cowork, so grandma really didn't teach me, per se, the techniques. And by the way, I have the same hands as grandma. The older and older. I'm getting, my hands are looking more and more like hers, which I think is pretty cool. But sorry, I, grandma taught me, more than technique because she did teach me some beadwork techniques. But what grandma instilled in me is the pure love of art. And along with the love comes the ethics, the morals, the values, everything else, how to truly love your art. that's what grandma was. when I had my business, internet business selling, the business ethics came in there. there was no way to disrespect your art, so she gave me that straight level of art there. she said something that'll stick with me for the rest of my life. And she said, if you're stingy with what you know, you'll die a lonely person. Yeah. And I think it's, grandma would teach anybody anything as long as you were willing to sit down and learn it. And grandma passed away when she was 84. She had company in her house all the way until she passed on, like never alone type. But she was that one that was willing to help anybody, willing to teach anybody. So I think I've, I've used that understanding within my own life to, to get to where I am. so Grandma helped me with my quillwork. Like I said, she didn't teach me how to weave the quills. She gave me all the tools to be able to do what I'm doing today. So in 2011, I tried to start, I tried to start doing cowork, even back then. There might have been a few videos out there, but it's nothing like it is now. All the tutorials and the YouTube and how all of that blew up it, it wasn't really big like that. It, my community, this was a lost art. in 2011, I started trying to self-teach myself this craft. In 2012, grandma came to visit. She lived two hours away. but she came to visit and she asked, how is them quills working for you? my quillwork was terrible, grandma said, why don't you make some giveaways? Take'em up there and go ask for help. all the years of spending time with her, she had to say little things like that, and I knew exactly what she meant. What she meant was make some giveaways, go in the ceremonies and go pray for help. So we had our fall ceremonies going on, that coming up weekend. So the next day I woke up, I spent all day making these little, let's see, I don't wanna throw no negativity on it. Some real humble earrings. they weren't too good, but I went up there and I gave them away. I prayed and I made two promises. One was to never abuse my art, to always do right by it. And the second promise was to teach anybody that wanted to learn. So I think that kind of fell back to one of grandma's teachings. So that would've been, next Monday, 12 years ago, next Monday, 12 years ago. Everything I have touched with quills has turned out from that point on. so that's how I learned the art. guided, helped, I got a partner out there that, that's pushing it on, but, it got really obsessive at that point. But it was all the years of the power regalias and the mixed media and all the different kinds of art on a dance outfit that really allowed me to put all of those skills together along with the resilience. And I just wouldn't give up. So I started cowork then and just went on and on. In 2016, I started teaching formal classes. So it was really hard because in them early years, it was all by feeling, there was no thought to it. It was all feeling. So to try to put these feelings into words and to try to break down these steps of how I do when I do it, how, one of my early students is here and, as a presenter, I probably wasn't the best teacher in 2016, but, she's a awesome basket weaver, so she nailed it. But, so in 2016 I started teaching and, it took my art to another level. so present day, I teach in three colleges back home. This craft. And then I teach in a K eight school with a, with eighth graders, advanced eighth graders. So it's really my gift to give back to the world. I feel a lot, I feel a lot more pleasure and joy in teaching than I do in creating the art in some ways. my most exciting project, excuse me, my most exciting project right now is, I have a 14-year-old apprentice that is me at 14. that boy's killer man. That boy's killer. He just likes my fire. But that's gonna be, that's gonna be my replacement someday, but it's, it's really inspiring to see him. And, everything you can imagine is real. I. I cannot even imagine what he's gonna create in his lifetime with this art medium and with art in general. So that's, it's a real, beautiful time, a real beautiful feeling. shout out to my boy Perge. He's, he's probably in my workshop right now. so he, he just started learning the craft about five weeks ago, and within the last five weeks, he's probably taken two days off out of the workshop. like that dedicated as, like me at 14. But that's, that's where cowork has taken me. so let me talk about the piece a little bit. That's here in collections. It's the title of the piece is, would be Pronounced Wapa, and what it refers to is the Eastern Star or the Morning Star. The name belonged to my father. That was his Indian name. So that was the years he passed. That was the years he walked the earth there. This was his Indian name. So in 2017, my, my brother had his second son. So at that time, there's two ways that we get Indian names. One is somebody goes out and fast, has a vision, is given that name or a second way is that a name is revived and brought back into the family. So in 2017 with my nephew, my mom made the decision to revive our dad's Indian name. So it was like, dormant, if you would say, for 16 years. and mom would be the one that would have the right. It's in our ways. It's really disrespectful to take a name from another family and just use it. So the name was like dormant period. but my mom named my nephew, this Indian name and it just super inspired this cradleboard and this piece of art. So on, on my bigger piece, I see the entire piece before it's finished, So I got really excited about this, and took off, it was about 250 hours and I betcha I did it somewhere between four and five weeks. Just obsessed. it's three o'clock in the morning, dude, go to bed. you're back up at eight. It's get back out to that shop and can, and continue on doing what you was doing. So it was one of those kind of pieces, but I was intimidated when I first got went into Indian markets because it was like, okay, I have to. Now I gotta create all of these stories, like it was shared before. I, I gotta create all of these stories to all of these pieces, Not at all realizing the story is already in the piece. You just gotta figure out how to turn it into words, So the board itself, we use cedar. So this is a life-size cradleboard 30 by 10. so the wood used itself, it's on a cedar board. One of our medicine cedar also, the board comes from our own lumber mill on the reservation. So the wood is from Menominee land, like this super connection, right? The design of it alone, I gotta give credit where credit's due to design of the board and the bow is not mine. Comes from, one of our local artists, and his name is Orland Webster. That idea of, Everything you can imagine is real. He pushes that idea as far as he can go. But it was his design he used, he's a woodworker, so where my quil quillwork is on the bow, he used Birdseye Maple. And the first time I seen that quil or that cradleboard, I was like, man, I could do that in Quillwork, So real cool man. I asked him about it and he's go for it, So he was super excited to see it when it was done. the color of the piece, the red background. So on the Potawatomi side of our family, tribally, our firstborn is a blue. Our second born is a red, so then it goes back and forth. Blue team, red team, blue team, red team. So that's how we, that's how we split up into our tribal games. Like we're not Bloods and Crips, man. We, that's, but that's how we split up. That's how we split up our teams for our games. So who, little Whoppy. He's a second born in his family. He's a red team. I'm a red team. So that's what inspired the piece. you can see other forms of, other forms, the seven cowy shells on going down, that has meaning to us. the cowork, the medallions, connected medallions that doesn't come from the menominee. That really comes from like a powwow influence, more of a Western influence. what I've been told is a chief's blanket. everything just clicked together. The Iman tails on the sides. the Iman has meaning to us. So that name WPA or Wapa na is how some, Menominee pronounce it. But, talking about the Eastern Star, it's the power of the Eastern Star. So we're taught that the east springs life, the spirit in the East brings life a lot like what was shared with the serpent, so the wood burning in the back de depicts. A man in the morning praying to the Eastern Star. So that kind of ties into the name. That's a teaching that, that we're all given. very few follow, including myself on. I try as hard as I can to get up at Sunrise, but it's hard when you're up all night. But, so that's the piece in collection, I made this piece in 2017 and it went to pretty much all the major Indian markets, won awards everywhere, but yet it didn't sell. And at that time, like I, I had just transferred in the Indian markets, so money was a little tight. I remember one of my mentors saying, it's gonna go where it's supposed to go. You'll be patient. So in two, in 2022, I believe is when, we made the agreement to bring it here and, I think I was happy at first, but I remember the day that I dropped it off. It was in this building here. I remember the day I dropped it off and you leave a piece of your heart there, but really special. I don't think I got a chance to see it when I was here doing restoration project last year and then I missed the opening. y was it yesterday? Yesterday was the first time I seen it since I dropped him off and it's one of them pieces of your heart that you just kinda stand there and stare at and reconnect with. But, overall I'm super, super thankful that it's here. This is where it's supposed to be. thank you guys for making that possible. So to close things up, re returning the tradition doesn't mean returning to the past. It means reconnecting with the wisdom of our ancestors and bringing it forward with us. I think this quote speaks volumes not only to tribal art, but the tribal identity as a whole. as far as, I think it, it'll preserve the most valuable asset we have, and that's our kids. Our kids. This world is all they know. They don't know anything outside of this world they don't know about. Sitting inside a wigwam with an elder, listening to a tribal story, it's like they don't know about that, right? So it's up to us to figure out how to bring this wisdom into present day for them. So I think that, that is a mission of mine. I work with youth organizations back home, teaching art, teaching dance, Woodland Heart Movement. Watch for us. Thank you. this next talk with Jamie, we're gonna have more of a conversation between the two of us. Yes. Thank you so much for facilitating this. Thank you all for staying to the tail end. I really appreciate it. I thought, ooh, if we get a quarter people back from the last session, we'll be good. But there's more than that, so thank you. but yeah, I'm so thrilled you're here. Thank you, Jamie. thank you for having me. and we have, Jamie's work, all the things, I hold dear on display behind us. shots will be rotating as we speak. Hopefully all of you have seen these amazing boots, and if you haven't, you should definitely go down to the Rockland Murphy and see these amazing boots in person. Yeah. so yeah, I just wanted to ask you a couple questions about this topic. and the first is, When we started our discussions about this commission and we were talking about possible topics you could cover in this piece, you floated several ideas and then you said, actually there's this piece I've wanted to do for a long time. and you spelled it out and I thought it was just amazing. So would you mind talking a little bit about how this kind of narrative came to you and, why this was the piece you were so excited to make? Yeah, I think it ended on the actual boot itself. they were the most recent purchase. I love them. and anytime I can buy some Prada boots, I will. but this is coming off, which is really great. This is a little bit more easier for me to speak of this is my last major piece. so I'm quite familiar with it and I'm, doing more of these personal narratives. Because it's what I know, obviously the best. I'm the only one that can tell them. And so the first along these lines of thinking was a cradleboard. And it was about, it was for me to remember my children at that exact age of what they liked. And the tradition of this is more or less along the lines of ledger drawings, hide paintings, things. We didn't have a written language or everything was oral or pictorial. And so for me it was freezing that space and that time of my children so that I will always remember this is them then. And for them to know this is how they were. And so more of a family history that everybody, can connect to. I want my pieces too. Resonate to everybody to have that conversation. We are not that different. We like the same things. And so these were a part of that to where my cradleboard was, my vision of them. This was more of them and their opinions. And so I let them choose their characters and their, the way the background, began. And thank you for that question yet. Last night to jog my memory, so my oldest's favorite color is blue and my youngest is green. So the theme, I had to combine those two. How would I do that? And it, this is what I came up with. this boot here is my oldest and he received that plant when I was doing one of these, at the herd museum. He was six months old, and the curator there gifted me this, Succulent. And so I still have it. It's alive. I don't know how I barely take care of it. like my poor children, they get abandoned by me off to my studio. And this one here, my youngest receive that at his kindergarten graduation. And same thing, both of these plants are in the same spot in my kitchen and somehow they're thriving and they just remind me of them. And so it just made sense for the colors, the theme. And both of them sadly have moved on from these two characters since we finished. But I can go back to there and just see them there. And you can't see it here. But it was mostly for us. Jared knew about it and he has a picture of it, but behind the two images are two hearts. And because they're my heart and I let them choose the color red and their, the hearts are outlined in each year that they had been, are with me for this time. So I think there's 10, outlines on one and 12, 13 on the other. And what was so important for me to have their involvement with this, with the colors and the imagery was something that I think about for my childhood. My parents at five years old now granted my mother is an incredible artist and she had already done, covers for Leonard Skynyrd and Cher. So this woman with this incredible art background. Her and my father let a 5-year-old choose the color of her new car. They didn't know what I was gonna say. It was red. I would've not agreed, but they let me do that. And it was looking back for them to have that trust and just to respect my opinion and do this, I thought it's just amazing. I look back and so I thought I, I want to do that for my kids to have an opinion on such an incredible, important piece, to have, to know that their opinions are so important to me and I care what they think. And so it's a little bit about that and the spikes. Why use spikes in so many of my pieces. It's a symbol of protection and don't touch. You can look, but let's keep it there. As we as in traditional terms, elk, teeth, quills, dentals, all have a purpose and a reason behind it. And this is the reason for mine. Great. Thank you so much. please let them both know. Jared says they can't choose different favorite characters. Now this is, they're stuck with these characters for life. because Yeah. so similarly, like when you're talking about the choosing of colors and the materiality is so important to you and using historic beads. And so could you just talk a little bit about where you source the beads from and how you decided which part of the boot would have historic beads versus more modern beads and that process? I think more or less it comes down to the actual color and, yeah, I think with these, yeah, the ma the majority of it is old European, a hundred years plus the colors that were made as most anything. That was made by hand a hundred years ago, is just incredible. It's amazing. The colors cannot be replicated. Beads being made today. There's very few makers that it's a solid color glass. that's not, I see so many people using dyed beads. I, there's none of that exists in my studio. It's just the color. It, they cannot be replicated and they're so incredibly beautiful. I can only get the tones and the shades of these antique beads. Great, thank you. I'm gonna ask somewhat similar questions when we have everyone up here too, but, for this next one Yeah. in this work, in your other works that you've done at other institutions, it's such a deeply personal narrative tied to your family, tied to your children, to your, and your other work tied to your grandmother and how, How do you navigate telling that personal story without giving too much away? we think of institutions that can be so extractive, and how do you be vulnerable like that without, giving too much of yourself, I feel, because I'm good with that and you're getting it directly from the source. If I'm telling somebody else's story, say something my grandmother went through, or even my mom, it's not mine to tell. And ultimately, even within being very tribally specific, I used to do those things, but then you realize there's so many more people than me in my two different tribes and I, I. I hesitate to do these things because I don't want it to seem that I am speaking on their behalf, even though we're the same tribe. They're all individuals. So I feel safer talking about my own experiences that I know absolute. And I would never give away anything that I'm not comfortable with to talk and share about. Great. Thank you. and yeah, your work has been so public, like you just had a fashion show at the Getty. Your work has been worn on red carpet openings. you've been on the cover of Vogue. And so has there been an instance where you feel like an institution, an organization did cross a line with, with one of your personal narratives and what did you do? How did you handle that situation? I haven't, I, there's been. very few private collectors that has happened to, but not institutions. I don't, I wouldn't agree to do something if I wasn't comfortable and thinking about these coming here. I'm a very, I feel quiet and I don't like to go anywhere where I'm not invited. I feel like a vampire in that way. and it is just coming here felt so normal, and I've noticed this with other institutions because I have family here. They live here, and so I'm visiting their space and yeah, no, I've not had that experience. Maybe some have, I don't, I've just had really great experiences. That's amazing. Thank you. I'm glad that you have not had any, uncomfortable. Uncomfortable. that's really excellent. so we, yeah, we have a room full of students. We have a room full of other museum professionals. would you just wanna talk about, any advice you have to young artists or, aspiring artists, to share, you have to love it more than anything else. And know, love it. Even if you are not getting paid, no one's looking at it. We were just discussing this earlier. I would be doing this and I did do this before anybody cared. And the art world is so incredibly fickle. You have to have an amazing, thick skin.'cause you're not going to hear everything you wanna hear at all times. You have to take the criticism, you have to hear all of these things. And it, going back to your question about institutions, it was about. 10 years into my career that a museum even looked at me. And by that time it was, I had quite an established career. So it's just been good. It was building up to get to that point that was a bit difficult. And even now, it's not steady. It's not, we don't receive a paycheck every week or every two weeks. It's hustling. You have, it's 24 for me, it's 24 hours a day. There's no, this year I took my first vacation and it was only four days since I was 16 years old. Anywhere I've ever traveled. It's for doing things like these and it's great. It's fun. So I get to do stuff. but it's a lot of work. You have to love it. It fully. Yeah. I remember, when we did your, the studio visit, it was just amazing to see all the different projects you had and all the different outfit designs you were working on. And do you, like when in your process, do you like pick an outfit and do that start to finish? Or are you working on multiple things all at once? Or how do you keep that creative energy flowing? How did my studio look when you came? It was beautiful. Yeah, it was great. Okay. Then I cleaned it up for you. I can't remember. Oh my gosh. I. I feel like I'm undiagnosed. A DHD'cause I've got things everywhere at all time. I get bored very quickly. And so I have to have multiple things going on at all times. And some things will get put away, will sit there for years for whatever reason. I have no idea. And then they get made when they're supposed to be made. So I love having options. I'll go in spurts of starting 20 things and none of'em are done. And then it's just the way I function and thank God it's worked.'cause I just, I'm just so thankful that I can do this in the crazy way that I do. And I'm surprised anything ever gets done. But they do you get a lot done? I can attest to that, yes. so everyone, please give Jamie a big round of applause. Thank you so much. You're not done yet though. Could be. Get what I was gonna say. Do I all the other panelists up here and I'll grab more chairs. Could we get that curtain closed? Thank you Mike. We have three, Awesome. Thank you so much. I just asked Jamie this question, but I'd love to ask you both as well. All of you do deal with such personal narratives in your artwork. telling family stories, telling histories. how do you make sure that, people don't cross a line, that they, people don't ask too much of you, or that you don't give too much of yourself? I think Jamie hit it on the head when she says, you have to be willing to be vulnerable.'cause putting your heart, wearing your heart on the outside of your shirt is not comfortable at times. especially at the beginning, So for me, Art. Art and the stories and the experiences, everything is something that I carry so deep that words to me, words don't even do it justice. So to be able to like, feel like I'm sharing too much, there's really never any way to fully share too much other than by how you live. And that's, that's behind closed doors, how you live, So it's, it's daily life. But, so I don't never feel, I guess I don't never feel like it's oversharing either. If someone's willing to give you their time and their energy and their attention to hear your story, share it, So that's how I feel with my heart. for me, I guess I try to be mindful of who I'm working with. like I, I try to make sure I feel comfortable. With the people I'm working with and that they are respectful to my feelings and ideas. But I also feel the same. I don't try to necessarily reserve that just for me, but, in my public work, I try to actually disconnect from it after I create it because I don't wanna be controlling of it like that. Like I feel like it becomes, it doesn't even belong to me at that point anymore. And, but I haven't had bad experiences either, within that, with that, within that realm, that way. And I hope it stays that way. it's actually been really positive for me. I haven't really had to consider that too much. Okay. Great. Thank you. I'm very optimistic. I'm glad to hear these answers from everyone. That's like very great sign. so yeah, I, I'm fascinated by this idea that when I think you brought it up first, David, that when you create a work, it just takes on a life of its own and it becomes its own, as you were saying, Jamie, it's your family, you have family here. what is it like to see that, to see something that, an artwork that you created that then starts to build its own energy and its own, Yeah. for me, having been in this. World for a minute now. I know that's what's happening, but it's also, like I mentioned, I get to go see them. I have so many places where my family is that I get to visit and it's so great because seeing how well taken care of and the people that I can share that with is amazing. I love it. Especially seeing kids in schools and being off to the side, seeing people look at your work, discussing it. I love that. It's amazing. for some reason that question makes me think of my artwork and, as like children, I think of'em as like my children, like my kids.'cause like they didn't exist until I did something that made them come alive. the same idea. And so I have a. Completely personal connection with them. So in ways that I get proud. I'm like, look at you. you go girl, you go, boy, I feel like that. I'm like, you do your thing, And I feel like that in regard to that question, but I also, I feel like it's exciting, that I could make something with my own hands that can create conversation that can engage and inspire, like that, just that alone. if a, if someone, or especially children, kids, they're like, oh, I want to go and do bead work. I want to be a sculptor. I wanna,'cause at the end of the day, for me, it's about that energy of creating how that's so very, healing, making art is such a healing process. And to be able to inspire that, it's just Amazing. It's just an amazing thing. It's one of the things I love about art. So when it was mentioned that your artwork is like your kids, that's the exact way that I describe it. a piece with 250 plus hours into it, I've done, three taxidermy otters and dressed them up in the Indian clothes. And, my youngest daughter comes walking into my shop and is dad, how come that dress? How come that Otter looks like he's going to the po? You know that was her interpretation of it. But as far as being one of your kids, any parent out there will know. You go through exciting times, you go through good times, you go through frustrating times. You go through times of doubt, you go through times that you would, to strangle that art piece, so to speak. But in, in the end with the finished product, it's like your child walking across the graduation stage, and you get that bit of, fulfillment at the end. it's like that when I go and see a project again, like when I seen the cradleboard yesterday, I was like wanting to give a hug, but there was a glass there. So I think that's what it is for my own personal, for my own personal big art feelings. But, What means even more to me is when I teach my Quillwork workshops and somebody who created a pair of quillwork earrings for themselves, their own hands. And when she puts them in her ears and looks in the mirror for the first time, that's I don't know, there's just something about it. It's the look on her face, it's the glow. Maybe she thought she couldn't do it and she eventually got there and, that's like the fulfilling part for me. Great. Joe, can we get Father Bob to give honorary degrees to all three of these works of art? Is that a possibility? Like really just, I now wanna, I'm sure a lot of you have questions. Thank you so much for all, for being here with us. I'm gonna pass the mic around and any audience questions for our panelists. hi, I'm Jacob. I am a junior at Ocean College and like an aspiring mural artist. so a question for David. You talked about how your art represents a personal narrative in a public space. does your art become a public or community-based narrative when you involve the public in your art making process? can you repeat that again? I'm just trying to contemplate what you're, I love the question you're asking. does your art become a community-based narrative when you involve the public in your. art making process. it depends on the story I'm telling, but, oftentimes it, it oftentimes, most of the time, yeah, it becomes part of the narrative of the community too. But it might not be, real specific. It just might be like my interpretation, but where it becomes, but what I try to do is, in my work, I, one of my goals is that people see themselves in their, people have some way of feeling a connection, a visual connection. And then I think that becomes then their own personal narrative. And for example, that first mural that I called my first public art piece, actually used my family members. likenesses in that. But a lot of people, that helped me, that were involved, they saw that and saw their own family. And so it was really fascinating that they felt like that was their grandma, their grandpa, their brothers, and so it's like more about, visually interpreting your own reality through something that I made. And but at times, for example, like the bridge project, that was literally the, those portraits were made by the hand of the community. and so there, that was more direct, but it still went into the artwork itself. So there's always different levels that I work in, but it depends on the project. and I'm always hoping that it finds a good balance. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hi. when like a lot of people look at your art and there's probably a lot of interpretations that people have, when you hear someone interpret symbolism in a way maybe that you didn't intend, when you're creating it, are you more I didn't really think of it like that as not like that? Or are you like, you know what, if that's how you interpret it, then yeah, it can be interpreted that way. Or is it more this kind of how I think it's supposed to be and that's what you'd rather the audience think of? I think for me, if I'm making you think anything, looking at it, I'm good with that. It's making you like, it interests you enough to think about it. We can't get our, Getting people to get off their devices and look at art is incredible to me. There's a win right there. So if you're thinking about it, that's awesome. But unless it's like, for me, if it's like way off, there's been times people have been, people would point things out to me that I hadn't even seen where I could tell. I'm like, yeah, that's good. I like that. We'll use that, add it on to what I was doing. But no, I've not, I've never heard anything that was so way off of what I was trying to say. I don't know if you guys, so I'm, I meant to like biographies really bad history. Like I love people and I like studying people. So one of my favorite dancers of all time, my favorite dancer of all time, Michael Jackson. And he interprets. He says, the biggest mistake you can make with dance is to think dance. You don't think dance. You feel dance. And I think art is the exact same way. you learn techniques, but eventually you get to the point that you're feeling it and you're not thinking about it, right? So to me, that would make art more of a feeling than a thought. So how we put those feelings into words is gonna vary from one person to the next. So along the lines of what Jamie said, if you're looking at my piece and you're thinking something, I'm with you, man. That's what it is. No, no disrespect at all. I would love to hear your opinion on it, So thank you for the question. I like that question too. I, with my work, I actually, I guess I would say I like it if you see other things that I didn't, that I don't see in there, because, I feel like that's your creative, energy like processing, And so that's interesting conversation there. and, but I, in my work, because the way I work, it is, I'm used to that actually.'cause people start telling me, oh, you see this and that. They're like, is that what that is? And I'm like, it wasn't, but I see what you're saying now. and it creates that almost like a, like we're connecting. And so what actually, what I found even more fascinating is that I even try not to get too, descriptive in what I'm doing to some extent and actually wait until I have that conversation with the viewers and they start telling me actually what it's about. and I think that more comes, that has a lot to do with more of a, like being like a vehicle for your art. That you're creating it in a way that you might not even comprehend. And it takes time, years conversations to start understanding what you made, and so I find that fascinating. A lot of work, since I started us off, I guess I'll close this out. and I just wanna say this last 36 hours have been absolutely magical for everybody that has participated dropping in for one part, staying here for all the parts. I hope that all of you that brought the magic, take the magic back home with you because it was really great. So thank you very much. the second thing I'll say is. I have absolutely no ability to get you an honorary degree, but, on behalf of the museum, what I can give you is, our commitment to, continue the work that we've started and to take very good care of your legacy here at the Rockland Murphy. So thank you for being your one and all. yeah. I had a question for Jamie. So you said you're a fashion, designer, okay. NYC fashion Week happened like a few weeks ago. Was there like any, designer that stood out to you or any, work that stood out to you? Oh my gosh, so many, so many in fact, this last. this last season was incredible as opposed to spring or, no, this was spring fall. I, there wasn't much that I don't like. I love seeing Valentino and Alessandro's new. I'm so glad he's back. Stella McCartney, I love what she does. yeah, there's, there was, it really was a good season. This last couture Paris week in London and yeah, New York. It's great. You have a favorite brand? Yes, I do. he's a Japanese guy and I cannot for the life of me because you put me on the spot. Can't think of his name. brilliant though. Amazing. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. So can we please give a big round of applause to all of our speakers? Thank you all so much again. I'd like to thank everyone for attending. I would again, like to thank the Terra Foundation, my colleagues in education, and of course the administration here. Joe and Lauren, thank you for helping us to pull all this off. you've all been amazing and I hope you, take a lot away from this symposium today. So thank you all for joining. Yes.