Dialogues Across the Decades Ep. 2: Paving the Way

Episode Topic: Paving the Way 

Travel back to the early days of the Balfour-Hesburgh Scholars Program with former students who reminisce about arriving at a quiet summer campus where an unfamiliar landscape transformed into a vibrant tribe where shared ambitions forged an indestructible sanctuary of belonging.

Featured Speakers:

• Ayana Fakhir '00, attorney & podcaster
• Joe Rolón '98, Princeton University
• Jeff Sandate '00, Methodist Health System
• Quincy Starnes '00, Bay Area Arts Conservatory 

Read this episode's recap over on the University of Notre Dame's open online learning community platform, ThinkND: https://go.nd.edu/02e336.

This podcast is a part of the ThinkND Series titled Dialogues Across the Decades: Conversations with Balfour-Hesburgh Scholars Program Alumni.

Thanks for listening! The ThinkND Podcast is brought to you by ThinkND, the University of Notre Dame's online learning community. We connect you with videos, podcasts, articles, courses, and other resources to inspire minds and spark conversations on topics that matter to you — everything from faith and politics, to science, technology, and your career.

• Learn more about ThinkND and register for upcoming live events at think.nd.edu.
• Join our LinkedIn community for updates, episode clips, and more.

Transcript

Welcome

Ayana R. Fakhir 0:00

Welcome to Dialogues Across the Decades, conversation with, conversations with Balfour-Hesburgh Scholars Program alumni, where we will share the legacy and impact of the Balfour-Hesburgh Scholars Program at the University of Notre Dame. My name is Ayanna Fakir. I graduated

People and Roommates

Ayana R. Fakhir 0:18

from the class of 1990... No, wait a minute, I forgot, 2000. I entered in 1996. I graduated from the class of 2000. Phew. And I'll be spending some time with you today, I'll be spending some time with you today discussing how our alumni class paved the way for the future s- for the future Balfour-Hesburgh Scholars Program. But before we jump into that, I wanted to thank all of the co-sponsors of Dialogues Across the Decades, including the Balfour-Hesburgh Scholars Program and the Notre Dame Alumni Association. And now I'd like to take some time to welcome our distinguished panel of guests. I'll start with you, Quincy, go ahead. Hello

Quincy Starnes 1:08

Hello. Yes, hi. My name is Quincy Starnes. I am also class of 2000. I was a Balfour-Hessburg Scholar with Ayanna and, um, Jeff, uh, that you'll meet, and Joe was one of our mentors. I lived in St. Ed's all four years, I'm proud to say. Uh, go Gentlemen. I was a, uh, let's see, television, and theater. Yes, they changed it in the middle of, uh the four years I was there to film, television, and theater. And now I am the theater department chair here in Dickinson, Texas, which is in between Houston and Galveston, so I like to say Houston. I am the theater department chair at Bay Area Arts Conservatory, which is an after-school arts conservatory where we s- uh, teach children ages two to 18 years old. So I am over the theater department, so I teach musical theater and acting, as well as some dance

Ayana R. Fakhir 2:11

All right. Thank you, Quincy. And now over to you, Joe. Joseph Roland, excuse me

Joe 2:17

Oh, actually, Joseph Rolón. Gotta get that

Ayana R. Fakhir 2:20

Oh, Joseph Frolon.

Joe 2:22

Gotta roll that R, roll that R. Um, hi, everyone.

Ayana R. Fakhir 2:25

Frolon.

Joe 2:26

Thank you. And, um, I had the pleasure of being the RA to Quincy, Ayanna, well, I guess to Quincy and Jeff, of course, but honorary to I- Ayanna. Um, so again, my name is Joe Rolón. Um, I graduated in the class of '98, actually, um, but I got to participate in Balfour for four summers, actually. I was a participant in '94, I was a tutor in, uh, '95, and then in '96 and '97, I was an RA. Um, let's see, something interesting about me. Um, I currently work at Princeton University. I'm the assistant dean for student life there, and so you never really get away from that whole mentoring and interacting with students. Um, and that's what keeps me young and vibrant, uh, hopefully. And yeah, that's, um, you know, we will delve into quite a bit of it. Um, and thank you

Ayana R. Fakhir 3:17

All right, and thank you Joseph Roland. And now Dr. Jeffrey Sondante, your

Jeff Sandate 3:28

hello. I'm Jeff Sandate. I, uh, like Ayanna and Quincy, graduated in the class of 2000. I was a, a Balfour, uh, 1996, um, entrant. Um, let's see. I lived in Morrissey Manor. I'm a Manorite. I majored in science pre-professional studies, and for the last almost 18 years, I've been OBGYN in Dallas, Texas

Ayana R. Fakhir 3:58

All right. You all sound so interesting. I guess I should mention that I'm an attorney in Ohio. And, uh, I was... I lived in, uh, I lived in Knott Hall, which after the first year became a men's dorm, and I moved to McGlynn. I am a McGlynn Shamrock, but also a Knott Hall whatever they were. I don't know. I don't remember what they were. But, uh, I was a Shamrock for three years, all the way over on the golf, on the golf quad, excuse me. And so now I'm a, I'm a lawyer living in Ohio doing lawyer stuff, and, uh, I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to be here with you all. I haven't seen these faces in years. I've heard the voices. We've talked on social media so many times. I'm sure you guys have talked in person, but I've only seen you all on social media, so I'm so happy, happy, happy, happy to see your faces, and you can finally see mine. Yes.

Joe 4:52

I'm happy to see that beautiful face and hear that beautiful voice

Why Balfour Matters

Ayana R. Fakhir 4:56

But, you know, for a few summers back in the '90s, we gathered together at the University of Notre Dame. Joe, Joe had a head start, and, uh, you, me, and Quincy, Jeff, got there in 1996. And we, we carried some expectations. We had some expectations. Um, and some of them were just completely washed away once we got there and, and saw... I mean, my goodness. It was, for me, the, the second time I had seen the campus, the first time was at that spring break, um, student, like pre-admitt- pre-admitted student orientation thing, and then they had us in the ballroom, and they announced that we had all gotten in to the University of Notre Dame, and everybody was like, "Yeah! Oh, my God." And then the next time I saw Notre Dame was that summer uh, the Balfour-Hesburgh Scholars Program, and that's where we found each other. That's where we all found each other. And so the Balfour-Hesburgh program was created to help students transition into one of America's most prestigious universities and to create community where isolation might otherwise exist. And now we are at the 40th anniversary of this program. We're gonna celebrate. We're gonna live it up. Yay. Balfour-Hesburgh. Only my knees are creaking and my back is old, so I might not be living it up as much as I would like. But, um, I wanted to, to just get an idea from you guys, 'cause I know when we, when we did, like, the little, um, pregame for this, we talked a lot about the social aspects, and we're gonna do the social aspects. one of the first, uh, things I wanted to get into is the, um, what's your very first memory? you come-- When you think about Balfour-Hesburgh, what's the very first thing that you think of when you think Balfour-Hesburgh? Like, was it getting off the plane? Was it meeting your RA for the first time? Was it seeing the campus? Was it dorm and how unbelievably hot it was? What was the first thing... the first thing you remember about that experience?

Quincy Starnes 7:03

I have

Ayana R. Fakhir 7:03

I'll start with, know, I'll, I'll start with the senior-est member of our party, Joseph. Go ahead

Joe 7:11

I, so I'm gonna give two versions. I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk about when I first arrived in '94 for, um, for my year as a participant. And what stood out to me was, um, one, it was the height of fashion with overalls, and so I wore the denim overalls with one side strap and the other hanging down. And I remember, uh, my peers having opinions on that. Um, not necessarily positive, but amusing. Um, and when I got out of the, got off the plane at South Bend Airport, I saw some of the participants getting onto a bus, and then seeing that bus leave me behind. And so I was like, "Oh, okay." So I had to take a cab to that hotel, um, St. John, St. Mary's or whatever that hotel was. That's where we gathered. And then I remember seeing just I, I had visited Notre Dame one time before, and I remember it being as white as, like, this wall, you know, behind me, and then just seeing all the color. That, that, that really, like, stuck out to me. And I was like, "Okay, so I'm not alone." And the, you know. And I also remember thinking, "Oh, these are probably just the only students of color that are, that are, that got in." Um, you know, and, and so it, it was an adjustment. But yeah, it was the, the fashion, the people, and really just seeing, seeing other people like me, you know? And, and o- and different from me, but that was important to me. Um, and then I remember the year you all arrived. And Jeff, I think you were the second person I met. W- I think Mike was the first one that I met, um, when you both arrived, or maybe I met you first and then we met Mike. Uh, Mike Gonzalez is also part of that, uh, Balfour Year group. And just thinking, "Wow." Like, "This is, this is, this is the next generation. This is, like, the next cohort of people." And just being, like, just being really happy to sort of pass on what I had kind of gone through and, and being a part of that. And be- and you all were a part of the millennium class, right? The two, that class of 2000. So I think for me, just seeing all your young faces and thinking, "Oh, I get to mentor them, but I also get to mess with them, too, and it's gonna be fun." All right.

Ayana R. Fakhir 9:21

And you did. You did. did. It's fine. We learned a lot. We, some, some things we'll keep to ourselves. Uh, Jeff, Dr. Jeff as I like to call, call you, what was your very first memory arriving at Notre Dame for your Balfour Summer? Well,

Jeff Sandate 9:38

I don't know if it w-

Ayana R. Fakhir 9:39

Summer.

Jeff Sandate 9:40

yeah, I don't know if it was necessarily my very first memory. I can't remember exactly what I first thought stepping on the campus, 'cause that was the first time that I actually stepped onto the campus for Balfour. But my, probably my most important memory was meeting Quincy. He arrived late, and it was just this larger than life personality and just, you know, of the party. So I remember that was a great memory, one of my great first memories of, of that, that summer. And he was actually my roommate.

Ayana R. Fakhir 10:11

Aw, Quincy, you get to be someone's very first best memory of something. Aren't you special?

Quincy Starnes 10:19

That's, uh, thank you, Jeff. That warms my heart

Ayana R. Fakhir 10:25

Quincy, what do you remember? What's your, your very first memory about, uh, Balfour Hepburn

Quincy Starnes 10:30

So my first memory is, like Jeff, I stepped on campus until about before summer. Um, but going back, I remember getting on that little plane from Chicago to South Bend, um, Angel was on the same flight with me. And I remember them having to rearrange the seating of where we were sitting on the plane to make sure that it was balancing out. And I had been on planes before, but not one that small, so that made me very nervous. Um, but then getting to campus and, well, stepping off the plane, um, in South Bend, that I was escaping the hot, humid Houston weather for the summer, and realizing that it is the exact same weather that Houston has in the summer, I was like, "Well, at least I'm used to it. At least it's not something I have to get used to," but being a little disappointed. Um, but yes, then meeting Jeff as my roommate, um, when I finally arrived. And yes, we were late. Um, I'm always... I don't know if you all remember, I'm always a little, a little late to things. Um, not through my f- hate being late. My mother, God rest her, my mother's the reason I was late, so.

Ayana R. Fakhir 12:04

Well, Quincy, you were on time for this, so you broke the record. You broke your own record, Quincy

Quincy Starnes 12:11

Thank you. Thank you

Ayana R. Fakhir 12:14

I think I remember, uh, the fact that there was no air conditioning in the dorms and I thought, "Oh, wow, just like home. Just like home." So, but I also remember my roommate, little, uh, and I don't wanna call her little, but she was so tiny. Adriana, who's a part of this whole, uh, operation. She's the one who, bullied me into doing this. love her. I love her. So, uh, listen, you guys shared your first memory.

Campus Impressions

Ayana R. Fakhir 12:46

You got onto the campus. Oh, my gosh, what did that campus feel like? Because when you get, when you get there, you're, you really don't have anything to do. They ha- they kinda have activities for you to do, but you can also just go wander around and look at everything. remember seeing the murals and the statues and the, the grotto and the lake, and I'm like, wow, this place is like... I don't even know. And it was quiet. It was very quiet. Quincy, what did you think about the campus when you first saw it?

Quincy Starnes 13:20

I was in awe. Um, being from Houston, if it's 25 years old, we knock it down here. There's not really any historical, like it, it really has to be historically preserved, but we don't, we don't truly care about history here, which makes me sad. But to see all of like, I mean, these dorms were, some of them were older than my grandparents and, and just the golden dome was, mean, hear about it, but to see it in real life is just like, oh my gosh. And then touchdown Jesus again. You know, you see all of this. It was, so beautiful. It's so beautiful. And being from Houston again, where it's kind of all urban and everything is paved and there's not a lot of nature, you know, unless you live in the country of the outskirts of Houston, to be around all the trees and, um, it was really awe-inspiring and just to think like, wow, I get to go here. And I think it was also a little different for me because I went to a small private school here in Houston, and none of-- only three of my ended up leaving the Houston area to go to school. Um, I mean, my graduating class was 72 people, and only three of us. One went to Annapolis, uh, I went to Notre Dame, and one went to Arizona, and we were the only three to leave the Houston area. So, um, it was really, um, it was really amazing, and I really enjoyed it

Ayana R. Fakhir 15:03

Okay, Joseph, what did you think about the campus?

Joe 15:06

I thought it was too quiet, to be honest. I, I, I grew up in New Jersey, but in a very urban area. Like, outside my window where my parents live, I can see the New York City skyline. And so I remember thinking, "Oh, like, there's a lot of trees," and, and insect noises and, and sort of things like that. But it was also sort of, um, surreal to me because it was really sort of my first time away from, like, my fam- you know, for a significant amount of time. It was four weeks or six weeks or however long we were there. Um, and I... Actually, a sad thought was I wasn't sure if I was gonna make friends or not, like, with my group that year. It- because I had, again, I had arri- arrived late. I looked weird apparently. And, um, I was wrong. Like, I made a lot of friends, but, but my first thing is, "Wow, it's really quiet." Like, really, really... Like, campus in the summer is very, very quiet. So yeah, too quiet.

Ayana R. Fakhir 16:02

Do you guys remember that smell?

Joe 16:06

Ethanol. The ethanol

Jeff Sandate 16:08

What is it? Yeah

Ayana R. Fakhir 16:09

The ethanol.

Joe 16:09

Yes

Ayana R. Fakhir 16:10

Do you remember experiencing that for the ver- first

Joe 16:12

Yes.

Quincy Starnes 16:13

Oh, yes

Ayana R. Fakhir 16:14

me about

Jeff Sandate 16:14

No

Joe 16:15

no, no warnings. And actually,

Ayana R. Fakhir 16:17

No warnings

Joe 16:18

I used to live in St- I forgot to say where the... I lived in St. Ed's and, and Zahm, but Quincy and I lived in St- We, we crossed over in St. Ed's, I think for like a year. Um, and the eth- you could really... Because where the guys lived, we lived in Zahm Hall, and then I forget where the, the female students lived across from us with the, it began with a B I think. I forget the name of the dorm that the...

Quincy Starnes 16:40

VP, Braden Phillips

Joe 16:41

BP, yes. BP. Um, and you- that's where you could strongly smell the ethanol smell there. And I'm thinking, "All right, what, what the hell is going on here? Like, really, what the hell is going on?"

Ayana R. Fakhir 16:52

And I'm, I'm from, uh, East Cleveland, Ohio, and smelled, you know, Northeast Ohio you smell factory smells. You know, you got, you got the, the, the smoke from everyone's, uh, gas-guzzling cars. But that, smell, I was like, "Oh, it's beautiful, but also is that? Why?" But, uh, uh, Jeff, what, what's, what did you think about the campus when you got a chance to go look around?

Jeff Sandate 17:21

Oh, I thought it was magical. it was... And, you know, I've been to several college campuses, you know, since then, and I still think Notre Dame is probably the most beautiful campus that I've ever seen. I thought it was just a magical place, and spiritual, and, I don't know. I just, I really enjoyed, en- enjoyed the, the first few days of discovering the campus. I come from the desert. That's where I grew up, so seeing all the lush green grass and trees and that was something different definitely for me

Ayana R. Fakhir 17:54

Yeah, I have to imagine it was, um, a very different experience for you Texans. Uh, the heat, the desert, and then you come to South Bend and it's like, it's kinda city-ish. Not really, but it was just, it, you know, the tree- the trees, the grass, and then the lake. We have our own lake at Notre Dame. Like, was surprised that we had our own zip code. Like, Notre Dame is its own little city, right? And the first thing you wanna do, you wanna go to the bookstore and you wanna buy all the merch. You want the T-shirts and, and I still have one of those T-shirts actually. And you want the, the, the slides and the, the, all the sweatshirts. You wanna just

Jeff Sandate 18:35

conditioning?

Ayana R. Fakhir 18:36

in it, the air.

People and Roommates

Ayana R. Fakhir 18:43

But what surprised me the most, the people. The people surprised me the most. Not just inside of the Balfour-Hesburgh program, but outside of it, right? 'Cause you get, we get that little, that immersion for, was it four weeks or six weeks? I can't remember. Anybody know for sure? I think it was

Joe 19:09

It was 40. I think it's like almost 5

Ayana R. Fakhir 19:12

weeks. then you come back in the fall, this is, you know, three, four months, and it's thousands of people. You go from your little cohort to thousands of people, and then your friends from Balfour are spread out all over everywhere. You may not get to see each other every day. roommate is somebody you don't know. You had a different roommate for four weeks, and then you come back and there's this new person. The people surprised me so much. My roommate, uh, Regina, may she rest in peace, uh, a white woman from Minnesota who had never met a Black person in the flesh before. And so was like, "Oh," because I had, I had interactions with, with, uh, with white people, with Hispanic people, people from all different kinds of cultures, um, because of my religious community, but also because of school activities took me all over the state of Ohio. I had even gone to North Carolina. So I had experience. She didn't, and so that was an adjustment for her. But for you guys, what surprised you most about the people of Notre Dame, not just in Balfour-Hesburgh, but outside of that? And I'll start with you, Jeff. us know. Don't hold back, Jeff. Don't be nice.

Jeff Sandate 20:36

Well, when I found out that I was gonna live with, uh, three other guys, that kind of took me aback. You know, I'd lived... I had my own room growing up, so basically I was like an only child. So having to share a space with three other strangers essentially, was kind of, um, that kinda threw me for a loop. And then when I got to see the space where we're gonna live, it's the size of probably small bedroom here. So you have four guys living in a teeny-tiny room with, you know, beds on top of desks and wardrobes, and trying to get used to everybody's personalities and cleanliness or lack thereof. That was, uh, that was kind of a shock for me

Ayana R. Fakhir 21:22

So do you think that Balfour prepared you for that particular part of it? 'Cause Balfour was, you know, you got, you had to, you had a roommate and you had an RA, and so maybe you got kind of used to it, but then you get in, in, in the fall you- there, you're living with four other people

Jeff Sandate 21:40

Right. So it did. You know, I, you know, living with Quincy over the summer for the four weeks, that, that got me used to, living with somebody else and sharing space with somebody else. Um, but yeah, that having to live with three, guys in one small room, that was something to get used to for sure.

Ayana R. Fakhir 22:00

And what about, um, cultural aspects? Can you speak a little bit about that? Because I know you're, you're Hispanic.

Jeff Sandate 22:08

Mm-hmm

Ayana R. Fakhir 22:10

maybe your roommates were not Hispanic.

Jeff Sandate 22:12

They were not Hispanic. They were

Ayana R. Fakhir 22:14

yeah, maybe they had no experience with a Hispanic person.

Jeff Sandate 22:18

And some of them did, and some of them had very...

Ayana R. Fakhir 22:20

or

Jeff Sandate 22:22

Um, I think

Ayana R. Fakhir 22:23

Or

Jeff Sandate 22:24

it was not necessarily awkward for them. It really wasn't awkward for me either. I think initially, uh, some of them who came from back east, they, they had, uh, gone, you know, to private school, predominantly white private schools and, and hadn't, um, you know, been around a lot of people of color. And so, um, I think once I brought my Balfour friends around and, you know, my friend groups into the, into the situation, and I think some good friendships were made as a result of that

Ayana R. Fakhir 22:55

Awesome. Thank you, Jeff. Joe, I know you got a full clip to unload.

Joe 23:01

I, yeah, I, uh, I'm not friends with my, uh, first-year roommate. I, I... My Balfour- Like, so Balfour did prepare me because in Balfour, I technically had two roommates, Pete Sanchez, may he rest his peace, and Clement Stokes. But Clement Stokes was a football player, and so I don't know if your year you had any football players on, um, in Balfour. But Clement, uh, his brother had been, also been a football player, and so he hung out with them, so he never stayed in the room. So Pete Sanchez and I had a big room just to ourselves, and so that was great. And then my first year colle- Like, after the wonderful experience I was living with, with Pete, uh, my, my, my first-year roommate, uh, it was not an ideal situation. We did not like each other at all. And it... You know, he was White. He was, uh, you know, came from money. His grandfather was, uh, won a, had a World Series or something at some point, um, in his life. So there was a lot of privilege there that I did not have. Um, and so th- that led to a lot of clashes. You know, he had seen... You know, I'm, I'm Latino. He had seen other Latinos. Like, he was from LA, so he, he had, but just we clashed, I think, culturally. And, um, I won't go into too much detail, but w- we stayed roommates another year just to, like... Because I wasn't gonna leave, and he wasn't gonna leave. And my parents always taught me, like, okay, someone does something to you, you do it back but better, and I did. You know, I was like, okay, well, I don't wanna get kicked out of Notre Dame, so I don't wanna get into a fight or anything like that. But psychological warfare, my friends. It worked. It helped a lot with that experience. Um, but yeah, I think Balfour did sort of help. Like, that was... Well, I mean, I had, I had an older brother, so I, I always shared a room. Um, but sharing a room with someone that is not a family member, who is not like you, uh, it, you know, it can be pretty, pretty bad. Um, but then it got better, and then I had a single, so that, that worked out pretty well. And then Jeff, I think you and I were roommates for one summer. I think. Yeah, yeah. And so it helped

Jeff Sandate 25:09

summer I'd come back

Joe 25:11

Yeah. But, but you also brought up a good point about roommates. When you, when you brought up once your roommate met your Balfour friends, I think we had the advantage that, that we knew people coming in, that even my roommate at the time would hang out with m- Like, I had a group. He didn't have a group, and so that felt kind of cold, like, "Okay. Wow, you may have the power, but I have the people."

Ayana R. Fakhir 25:35

Right, and I remember my roommate Regina met Quincy, and she loved Quincy. She just loved Quincy. Everybody loves Quincy, by the way. Loved and loves him. He was like the icebreaker sometimes For a lot of us in these, in these groups. But Quincy, what, what experience did you have? Did you, do you think that Balfour prepared you for the roommate situation or... I, I know you had an, you had an interesting roommate situation that first you touch your eyeglasses.

Quincy Starnes 26:06

Yes. Um, Jeff and I were great roommates. I think we're both cleanliness-wise on the same level, um, and both very respectful of each other. And we just had... I mean, Balfour, there was work, but it was also so much fun. We did a lot of things, and it was great to really connect with a group of people. Again, I went to a small private school, so I was surrounded by white people 90% of the time. The only time I was surrounded by other, uh, people of color was if I was with my family or at church. Um, otherwise, it was living in a predominantly white world. so being in Balfour was an amazing experience that summer to just be just us, you know, people of color and, and all of the ways we can relate to each other no matter where from in the country we're from. So Jeff spoiled me as a, a roommate. Um, my roommate, um, unlike Jeff, my roommate did have a group because he was a swimmer. Um, he was from a small town in Florida. Um, we started off okay. Um, but just some of the habits that he had were not kosher to me all. Um, um, it did, it was never antagonistic, it just got to the point where we just really didn't even speak to each other unless it was like, you know, like, "Hey. You know? I mean, we just kind of cohabitated with each other, and then that, you know, we had to stick out for the year, um, and then we just kinda moved on. I think my saving grace was, um, I was in, um, a really small section of St. Ed's. I was in, like, 101, and there was, like, six rooms in that, in our dorm section. And, um, there were a couple of football players that lived across the hall from me. Um, and there was, you know, it was a really eclectic group, and they became really tight with me. He was not even a part of that group. It was very much like I had my Balfour's, and then I also had, like, my dorm section mates that were really close and tight, um, with me, and they were like big brothers kind of to me. I remember when I started dating, they had, they decided that they wanted to approve of my dates and meet my dates so that they could see whether or not they were, you know, a good person. I'm like, you, you, I, we're all technically adults right now, so you don't have any say in this." Um, but definitely I grew up, I had a, I have a little brother, and he and I shared a room from the time he was born until I was 9 or 10. I think I was 10 when I got my own room. So sharing a room with, you know, had never been an issue for me. But a- as you all said, I'm a, I'm a lot. I am a lot. I'm an extra person, and there are people that don't handle that, and my freshman year roommate was not a lot. He was definitely, um, an athlete, but not, like, a football player. athletes are different ways, and I think swimmers tend to be a little more, um, introverted than a lot of people. So I think that I was kind of off-putting for him that way

Ayana R. Fakhir 29:45

One of the things that I think, um, Balfour, Hesburgh definitely spoiled us on, thinking that everywhere you go, you're gonna see, uh, person who looks like you. You're gonna see a Black person, you're gonna see a Hispanic person, you're gonna see a, a Native American. You're gonna see, you know, somebody who looks like you, that just was not the case. You thought everybody's gonna be friendly, everybody's gonna adjust to you, everything's gonna be good and great, and listen, that was not the case. At least not for me. I don't wanna speak for you, but that was not the case for me as a, um, a young Muslim girl. Like, I encountered thought that I was from, uh, the mean streets of Africa, and And I, I, I was having to constantly correct people. Like, "No, I'm from East Cleveland, Ohio. I'm from Ohio." "Oh, the Cleveland Indians, right?" "Yes. Yes, the Cleveland Indians, yes." But it was a culture shock. I was the culture shock for people, and that was, um, exhausting. That was exhausting. No, I didn't speak a foreign language. I spoke a little Spanish, little Spanish. But no, I didn't speak a foreign language. No, I'm not, you know, from Sub-Saharan Africa. I'm sure it's a lovely place, but I'm from Ohio. Indiana's the first place besides North Carolina I had been in my entire life. Uh, going to Notre Dame was the first time I had been on an airplane. I hadn't had too many big real-life experiences in that way, and so living away from home, that was, uh, an adjustment as well. And I think that first, the, those four weeks I thought, "Okay, I can do this. I can do this." And then I got there in the fall, and I was like, "Oh, I don't know if I can do this. I don't know." And I don't wanna say it's because of Balfour-Hesburgh, but Balfour definitely spoiled me. It really did. It felt like home. It felt so comfortable. You know, the bonds that we formed, they were just so rich. And, and then in the fall it was like, ah, I miss that. I really miss that. And some of us ended up living on different sides of campus. And then especially when they built the new dorm, I was way over near the, the south dining hall, so I didn't get to see you all as much as I wanted to. And so I developed a kind of loneliness for my Balfour-Hesburgh people. I still got to see you some, but not as much as I wanted. Did any of you feel that loneliness at all? I know, Joe, you, you got to see Mike and Jeff a lot, did any of you get to get that loneliness feeling at all when you, you finally had to, to mix and mingle during the, the fall semester?

Joe 32:32

I, I did, but, but I, I, I, you know, like, like, I- the Balfour people were still my, my close group of friends. Like, w- we had to make it sort of work. Like, we had to schedule time to, to, you know, eat meals together and everything. So, so we had to put the effort in. Um, but you're right, I think Balfour did sort of spoil us for that. Like, I think for me the biggest shock was when I went to class and, like, the number- my Psych 101 class, huge number of people, and not, not being surrounded by familiar faces, you know, complexion-wise or i- identity-wise. And so that I think was the bigger shock. But friend-wise, yes, it was. But, you know, with, with my core group and, and even with some of your groups, uh, like, we found the time, I think, for each other. And we got a lo- like, I made some friends through other Balfour people too. It's like, "Okay, well this is Joe. We were in Balfour together." I'm like, "Oh, hey," you know? Um, so th- that, Balfour helped me that way, but I do agree with you ab- in particular about the academic side of things. It, it was a, a shock for me. Because where I went to high school, I went to a private school, but it was predominantly Hispanic and Black, you know? And so, like, like, some of the sh- like, I actually had an African American history course when I went to high school, and then the fact that no one else had had that and that, like, it was a weird sort of experience for that. But, um, yeah, I think academically, not being intimidated, having imposter syndrome, and not having the, the familiar faces, that was rough for me

Ayana R. Fakhir 34:11

How about you, Jeff? What was the, the... Was there a culture shock? Was there a, a loneliness? How did

Jeff Sandate 34:18

There w-

Ayana R. Fakhir 34:19

had, you have, um, Mikey or Michael Gonzalez, who's from your... You two graduated together, so

Jeff Sandate 34:28

Yeah

Ayana R. Fakhir 34:28

you had like a built-in, a built-in brother.

Jeff Sandate 34:32

Kinda, yeah. I mean, that, that was definitely, uh, an advantage for me. But, um, think after we started in the fall, you know, we kinda go our own special, our own different ways, and so we don't get to hang out as often as, as we'd like to. And so I think for me, I think when I started in the fall, I was okay. I, I guess just the excitement of getting everything ramped up, and then I remember going home for that fall break my freshman year and coming back and just being completely homesick and just completely lonely. And like Joe said, I think a lot of it has to do with the, on, on the academic side. You just feel kind of lost in these huge classrooms where, you know, going to high school, there's, like, 30 of us in a classroom, and then you sit in these big lecture halls and you just kind of feel, "Where am I?" And, "Do I deserve to be here?" That sort of thing. And then, you know, I think too academically you're coming, or at least for me, I'll speak for myself, coming, doing very well in high school and it... Not coming easy, but, you know, you studied hard, you made the grades, you, you know, got the rewards. And then going to Notre Dame where everybody's coming from the same, you know, standards for themselves and it's kind of, you kinda get lost. So for me, for sure it was after that, that fall break where I kinda got homesick and lost it, but then I got myself back together.

Ayana R. Fakhir 35:53

You're awesome, Jeff. Quincy, did Balfour-Hesburgh make you feel special at all, like you had been chosen do something that not everyone could do? Like, when you met up with other, um, minority, uh, students and you told them that you were in Balfour-Hesburgh and they were like, "Oh, I applied and I didn't get in," did that make you feel, "Oh, well, um, too bad, so sad"? Or did you feel like

Quincy Starnes 36:23

Um, I would that I felt special, um, but I also just felt special being at Notre Dame in general. Again, my-- I went to, like I keep saying this, but my, went to a small Lutheran school, and so the kids in my school did not dream big. And so for me to go to Notre Dame was already in and of itself like such a special thing and, you know, I had, I have two older brothers and neither one of them finished college. So, and I always say I was the great Black hope of my family. So there was already a lot of pressure on me to go into Notre Dame. I will say that the Hessburg program definitely taught me that, um, and my mother didn't wanna listen, um, and things just transpired that made her have to listen. But I was not I'm not a STEM person, a STEAM person. You have to have the arts in there for me. And yes, in, in high school I got the grades, and I, you know, I got mostly As and some Bs, and my mom used to say, "If you would study, you'd make straight As." And I'm like, "I don't study, and I still have a 3.65 grade point average. Like, what's the point of studying if I'm doing so well?" Um, and coming into the Hessburg program and being like, "Oh. Oh, this is work. Like, oh, I really have to, like, in the effort to something that doesn't come naturally to me. Math is something I actually to work hard at doing." But then also having this whole, pressure of you have to be pre-med. That's what my mother says, "You have to be pre-med. You don't have a choice." And I'm like, is not for me." And she's like, "No, do it." And so having to really study. But meeting those other students and, um, don't know if I ever met anyone and they were like, "Oh, I applied and I didn't get in." But there was a specialness because we already had that bond with each other, and that was the specialness there. Um, and unfortunately, way things went for me, I didn't get to see you all as much because of my degree track. So I kind of went way towards, you know, the theater and the liberal arts side, and you all were still more science and technology and math and things of that nature. So, um, I didn't get to see you all that much that way, but you always knew where to find me. Just come to La Fun, and you know when Su was working at La Fortune,

Ayana R. Fakhir 39:11

indeed. You were working. You were. I saw it I think at the first year I worked at the dining hall and the, um, the Observer, and that was an experience because I had never, I had never done a job like that. I had done some internships, but I had never done a job like that. But I remember doing that and thinking, "Gosh, I cannot believe I have to do all of this just to become a lawyer." That was my track, and I had to stick with it. Uh, because again, it was, yes, you're gonna be the lawyer, or like you Quincy, yes, you're gonna be the doctor. You are. Um, and, and in many ways Balfour-Hesburgh was, you know, it was trying to teach us, um, to be strong emotionally, socially, and academically. We got all of those things. We had a lot of, um, group activities. We had, uh, that, the tutoring, or was it like the homework session. Uh, and we'd, you know, we attended classes together, when, when the day was over, we could go out and hang out, and I just remember going back to my room because I was exhausted. a lot. It was a lot of things, and that's how school was. School was a lot. School was a lot every single day. So that was something that Balfour definitely prepared me for.

Feeling Seen in Balfour

Ayana R. Fakhir 40:33

did you feel, you know, d- in, in the group, in the group, the Balfour-Hesburgh group, did you feel seen or understood in ways you had never been seen or understood before? Like in your family dynamic maybe, or in your s- your high school dynamic, did you feel seen by the people, by the professors, by, uh, people who worked with the program? Did you feel different? they treat you differently? Did you go home thinking, I'm somebody now. I'm grown"?

Quincy Starnes 41:12

I guess I'll, I'll start. Um,

Ayana R. Fakhir 41:14

Go ahead

Quincy Starnes 41:16

Balfour summer was the first summer that I felt I could be authentically me. Um, getting away from my family, um, you know, um, being, um, of the LGBTQIA+ community and getting to just be myself even in the Balfour. And we all know that it is a stereotype that people of color tend to not be as kind to people that are part of that community. Um, and so for me to have that intersectionality and just be like, "Hey, this is who I am," and there were definitely... It's weird because there weren't... How many Balfours were there? I can't remember how many there were of us that year, but there were definitely... And you would think we would all, like, mesh and get along, and that was not the case. There were definitely, like, factions of us that ended up. But I just remember faction was...

Ayana R. Fakhir 42:19

them clicks,

Quincy Starnes 42:21

Yes. My clique, which included you, Ayonna, and you, Jeff, and you, Joe. My clique was great and very supportive, and we had a lot of fun, um, doing, you know, that, um, being together and you all just really just embraced me and accepted me for who I was. And for me to have that for four weeks and then have to go home and kinda shut that down little bit until I could come back and do it again, um, it wasn't easy, but I think it helped me on my coming out journey because, um, that's when I finally decided, you know... My mom used to ask me every year, once a year, out of the blue she would ask me, "Are you gay?" And I would always say no. Just once a year randomly. after that Hessburg summer, like, "Next time she asks me, I'm gonna say yes." that Cr- back from Christmas break that year, she asked me on the way to the airport. And I just remember, like, even if I don't have that support home, I have it at my second home because I have my friends that I made at Balfour who have already shown me that they love me and care for me and accept me for all of who I am. So that was just one of the greatest experiences

Ayana R. Fakhir 43:47

Aw. love that. I love that. Joe, what about you?

Joe 43:52

You know, I, oh. Um, you know, I don't, I don't... Like, I didn't... I think for me, like, after that Balfour summer and then going home, it wasn't so much... It, it was the fact that I, I was able... Like, I got into Notre Dame, that I, I was the first one in my family to leave home to go to, to college. And so there was this sense of, um... I think they would've thought it was a sense of, like, arrogance maybe. And I'm like, "Oh yeah, I, I spent the summer at this, you know, elite university with, with people who, like me." And, you know, it's this huge advantage and privilege, and it was, you know. But, you know, for some people it was, it was like, there was like a switch or something. Like, w- when I, when people found out I went there but they knew my background, a lot of people who I had been friends with in high school, w- they, there was this difference like, "Oh, y- you think you're smart now?" Or, or, or something like that that I hadn't been an- anticipating. But at the same time, I, you know, while going to Balfour, I did realize how lucky we were, you know, that, that we did get in. And I do remember speaking... Like, it was weird. Like, Balfour sort of, you know, we're, we're these, these, these, uh, students of color sort of gathering together. And then other students who, other students of color who didn't get into Balfour, we were still able to sort of connect. There was that weird, like, "Oh, you, you went to Balfour and I didn't?" Whi- which I didn't really get at the time. But I was lucky enough, and, and, you know, I think we were all lucky. Well, I, I, I can speak for my year and my experience, that the majority of my friends were not the white students, but it was other students of color that I had met through friends from Balfour or, or, or something like that. Like, like, we came as a package. Like, it wasn't just Joe. It was Joe and, and these, Pete, and Rahman, and Graciela, and Emiliano, and Guillermo. Like, it, it was sort of that thing, um, that really messed with my head. Because when I went home, it was just Joe. It wasn't just, it wasn't Joe and, and Balfour. And, and that support wasn't really there that I got from... Like, you know, Notre Dame was the first place where I realized friends could be like brothers and sisters. And I'm actually closer with a lot of my friends, more than I am with my actual sibling. And I, I lo- I, I just turned down a call from my sister actually to, to stay on this, so, so that, that says it all.

Ayana R. Fakhir 46:23

Apologize to your sister for us. Tell her you're with your other sister. Jeff. Jeff, what about you?

Jeff Sandate 46:37

Uh, yeah, I do. I think, I think just the nature of the Balfour program, it just being, you know, a smaller section of students, you know. Um, I do feel like, you know, the tutoring and the interactions with all the different professors that we had during that summer, it kind of gave us... Well, kind of gave me a small, a, a, a sense of security that unfortunately doesn't carry over when you start the academic year, right? Because again, you're dealing with bigger classes and a bunch of students trying to, you know, get one-on-one tutoring or trying to speak with the professor. So it kind of... I feel lucky in that aspect that it, that we, we did have the more intimate, uh, smaller groups that were, you know, um, able to, to interact more one-on-one with, with everybody. And then when you enter the academic year, it becomes more difficult to do that, so. So it kind of, uh, a false sense of security for me a little bit, I guess.

Legacy and Mentorship

Ayana R. Fakhir 47:41

Sorry about that. One of the benefits of Balfour-Hesburgh is that you get to come back another summer if you want to and take, uh, I think it was two classes we got to take, and we had got room and board, and, I also worked. But you could have, you could work for the program, right? And so I did, I think I did, like, was it, like, hall m- uh, study hall monitor or something like that. And so coming back and seeing these bright, young faces, and they were so excited and, and thinking, "Oh, my life is gonna be like this forever." And in my head I'm thinking, "Oh, gosh. They just have no idea. They have no idea." And I know that for you, Joe, you experienced that big time with, with us when, when you came

Joe 48:33

It, was so hard to like, okay, like, I d- you know, like, they're, they're so young. And mind you, it was like a two-year, a two-year difference that, you know, I wasn't like I'm significantly older than all of you. But I do remember thinking like, "Oh, th- they're in for a shock." Like, th- this is not how it necessarily is during the year. But I did try, like... You know, like, because we had, because we were able to go back for every summer, and I really appreciated that because that helped me with some classes that I would, I had to retake. Um, but I, I tried to make the... It was one thing I wish I had had from like my RAs and, and, and, and the, the, the tutors and, and everything, was getting a ch- like the ones that I really remember were the ones that introduced me to other Balfour students that weren't necessarily working in the program. So that was like, oh, I have like... I remember when I met Isaac Duncan. Isaac Duncan is a prolific artist right now in Tennessee. He had done Balfour, and he was, he had done it the year that Alex Montoya had done it, and Alex was one of my tutors, um, that, that year and that whole group. But then he introduced me to Isaac, who became sort of like my big brother when I was at Notre Dame, and I really sort of appreciated that. You could see the legacy of, of Balfour. And so, like, one of the things I hoped I did was trying to introduce some of you to some of the other students that didn't necessarily have the best experience. I know, um, Rahman met a bunch of you the first night, and that was an interesting experience for, for some people. But, you know, Balfour, it, it was like, okay, because I did it four years or, or three years of staff, I got to see the, the, the generation, the, the sort of the generational sort of like aspect of it. But also like, okay, do I really tell these people how it really is? And I think I did in my own ways or, or maybe we had those moments. But like your first day arriving, I was like, "Oh," like, "oh, poor things." Like, they're so adorable. They're so cute. And I just remember thinking,

Ayana R. Fakhir 50:33

Look at those little

Joe 50:34

"Oh,

Ayana R. Fakhir 50:34

deer. Aw.

Joe 50:35

remember, um, having a conversation with Denise Rivera about like, okay, this is how, this is how it is. Like, enjoy this now, but yeah, it, it's not gonna be the same dur- during the year. So you have to be intentional about enjoying this time and making the connections there, because it's gonna be harder to make it later on

Ayana R. Fakhir 50:59

Uh, and I, I definitely agree with that because it, it is... If you don't establish a foothold that summer, then when you get into the fall, it's gonna be so difficult. So very difficult. And I actually, my heart actually goes out to the other, uh, minority students who didn't have that benefit because my gosh, I hadn't had Balfour, I, I don't e- I don't know. know. I probably would have left Notre Dame, to be quite honest, if I didn't have you all and then, uh, my roommate Regina, we ended up becoming really good friends. If I didn't have that, and Adriana, she still calls me roomie. If I didn't have those bonds, I would have left Notre Dame because it was just so, was, like whereas you all could be yourself, it was hard for me to be myself, right? I had to pray, I had to fast, I had to cover, I didn't see anybody else like really doing that. Like, you guys went to church on Sun- on Sunday. There was mass on Sunday. But I was the only one doing what I was doing, and so it was hard for me to be myself. I mean, I still managed, but it, it, it just, it did feel lonely, but I had my friends. I had my friends. And, um, my friends, you guys remember Laurice Woods, uh, she wasn't in Balfour-Hesburgh, but she ended up being one of those people, Joe, like you said, who, you know, another minority student who wasn't in it, but we, we got introduced and we lived in the same dorm. And she said to me, "You know what? You just gotta finish the game. You have to finish the game." And that's something that I still carry with me. Balfour-Hesburgh did make it easier through the friendships. It wasn't just the academic stuff, 'cause the academic stuff, you know, I was valedictorian. Come on now. Yay. But the, the socialization, the friendships are what really got me through the tough times, and there were a lot of tough times. You know? A- some of us had to deal with personal losses in our family while we were at Notre Dame, and I know, Quincy, you had to deal with them, and another friend of ours had to deal with it, and it was just a lot. And you're growing up at the same time as you're going to college, and you're learning so much, and you're doing so much, and so you... We all leaned on each other. We really did.

Grief and Support

Ayana R. Fakhir 53:27

And so share with me what that experience was like, having to lean on people during the hard times, these Balfour friends that you, um, that you made. What was it like, uh, having to go through tough times together? I'll start with you, Quincy

Quincy Starnes 53:44

Yeah. So, um, a- as you all remember, um, over, over fall break freshman year, my father died. Um, he actually died two hours before my plane landed that night. Um, and I remember the first thing I did when I found out was call and talk to... I believe I called Paulina. Um, but you all happened to be together and let her know and, you know, she let or she- And she not only told you all who were there, but she reached out to everyone else who, in our friend group, to let them know. And, um, you all sent flowers for the grave, uh, for the s- um, for the funeral. I didn't wanna come back after that. I wanted to take the semester off, but my mother had been... had two sons before me who had taken the semester off, and they never went back. So she told me, "No, you're going to go back." I just can't imagine what it would have been like if I didn't have you all. I mean, that was a month and a half into our, you know, my freshman year. Like, if you had not, if I hadn't had Balfour, my connections with people would not have been, you know, very strong at all. But I had my Balfour friends to, uh, really lean on, and that was such a blessing, um, that, you know, that was, I was able to be able to do that because I don't think I would have made it otherwise if I didn't have you all, you know, checking on me and, and just making sure that I'm okay. Yeah.

Ayana R. Fakhir 55:36

Yeah, Joe was one of those people. Joe, you were somebody that we could lean on, somebody we could talk to. I, and I remember Quincy, you were someone I could talk to, you know? And, and, and I remember Jeff, you probably don't remember this, but it was one summer, I, we had gone bowling, and then, like, the next day I threw my back out and I couldn't walk, and so you came to the Fortune

Jeff Sandate 56:02

that

Ayana R. Fakhir 56:04

and you got me and you walked me back to the dorm. I literally could not move.

Jeff Sandate 56:13

I remember that

Ayana R. Fakhir 56:14

I was in so much pain. And then you became a doctor.

Jeff Sandate 56:19

You inspired me.

Ayana R. Fakhir 56:21

Aw, I'm so glad I could. But Joe, what did, what did it feel like being, you know, going through stuff together and

Joe 56:28

Oh,

Ayana R. Fakhir 56:29

having to lean on each other?

Joe 56:30

it was great. I, I remember before... So my grandmother passed away. My grand- my grandmother was, like, the first, like, significant death that I sort of had to deal with, and it happened my... It, um, I- she had been sick, and my family didn't tell me that she had been sick. And then I get a call around, like, we, we got off for, I guess, Easter break or something. So my parents said, "Okay, you're coming home." I saw my grandmother. You know, she, she hadn't died yet, but you could tell it was coming, and I, I j- I had to go back to campus. And then during finals, uh, remember we had the phones in our rooms with the riddle- the little red light if you had a message? Um, oddly enough, I, after taking a test where there was a math question about the probability of an old woman dying and that freaking me out, when I got back to my room, I had gotten a message that my grandmother had passed. And so I wanted to go home for the funeral, but it was arou- it was around finals, and my parents were like, "No," like, "She wants you to finish this." Like, "Y- you need to finish this through." And so I said okay, and I remember, like, it was one moment where my roommate and I... Like, again, w- we're not friends. We're nowhere near that. Like, I would name him right now, but no. Um, but, but we, we called a truce, and I'm like, "Look," like, "My grandmother just died." Like, "I, I, I can't tonight." Like, "I, I, I don't have the, the mental energy to go to war with you right now." And he was actually very accommodating. So he ended up spending the night at another Balfour person's room that, that he had made friends through me. And then, um, that night, I w- I was hanging out with my b- my core Balfour group, and I just, I just didn't have the energy. Like, I, I felt like I had to entertain, and I, I just, I couldn't do it. So I went back to my room, and maybe about an hour later, a Guillermo Rodriguez, who was part of my Balfour year, showed up, and then he ended up spending the night in my room, like, just, like, supporting me through it and, and getting me through that. And so seeing that and never having had anything like that in my life, and it, and it was the Balfour group that came together to support me, that sort of all was like, okay, like, I, I know what this is like firsthand. And, and some of the tragedies that, you know, some of the other Balfour students had, like, it wasn't a grandparent. It was a sister, a father, a parent, you know? And so because I had that, I wanted to make sure that if any, like, any of the next generations of the Balfour-ites were, were going through that, that, like, to really be there, not just as a friend to say, "Hey, are you okay?" But to spend the time to, to be there. Like, it's important to have that. And I, I, I don't think I would have survived Notre Dame if I didn't have... Like, like, that was a, a, a time for me where it was like, like you guys might not have met me. I might not have met you. I w- I was ready to leave But what got me through that was my Balfour friends. Like, and, and they made sure, like, it wasn't just, it wasn't like, "Okay, you know, are you okay?" But like they spent time with me and, and one of the best moments ever was when I opened that door and Guillermo was standing there. Like I, I was about to cry. Like I'm not a crier really. Um, but that, and that was someone that I made a connection with through Balfour. And so I think again, like, you know, I wasn't the valedictorian, but I think we all could have survived Notre Dame. Balfour definitely helped us figure out how, like we could have navigated it, but Balfour gave us the tools, right? To be able to do that. Um, but I think for me it was the social aspect that got me through it. Like, okay, I'm not like this, this Cuban kid in the middle of rural Indiana by myself. So, so yeah. So that support that we gave each other, I was very lucky to have that my first year. And from what I've heard from, uh, Balfour alum who were there before me, they've said the same thing. That there was just something about all of us being together on campus during that, that time in our lives that that made us then wanna give back and, and, and support for each other, but also for like the future generations, you know?

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:00:30

And it was just four weeks, but it, it, we were doing everything together. We, class, meals, uh, outings together. And so Jeff, I know that you developed some, some pretty strong r- friendships with people. What did you, what did it feel like having that support system to lean on during difficult times?

Jeff Sandate 1:00:48

For sure. It was, it was extremely important. Um, just gonna say hats off to Joe. Um, know we had talked about Michael Gonzalez earlier, but, um, Michael Gonzalez and myself, we had-- we've known each other since preschool, so we were both valedictorians of our high school, and then we both went to Notre Dame. um, during his time there, he lost his sister. And I remember Joe specifically... We're from Carlsbad, New Mexico, so Joe took it upon himself to physically be there in New Mexico for Mikey, and I know that's something that's ve- was very important to, to Michael. uh, it just said a lot about the type of person Joe is. again, we wouldn't have, we wouldn't have known you if, if we hadn't been in Balfour

Joe 1:01:32

Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:01:36

No, go ahead. Go ahead

Joe 1:01:37

I, I keep meaning to... Yeah, but it was also reciprocal, and I think that was key. Like, I remember didn't I f- like, didn't we do, like, Christmas gift exchanging or, or something? Like me, Keshana, Paulina, you, Quincy, Mike.

Quincy Starnes 1:01:51

Yes,

Joe 1:01:52

Like it was a, like a, a, a group like that. And then I even think about, like after, years later, like, uh, Denise Rivera was someone who really helped me out during a, a tough time in my life, you know? And so kudos to her. Mike has helped me out, you know, earlier in, in my life. And so I think being there for each other, and then still talking to each other. Like, in between our year, I think... Do you guys remember Ricky Ramon? You know, like, he was someone who, um, you know, had, like... Like, we've all had struggles, and we've all been there for each other. Like, I wouldn't be here now if it wasn't for Rahman Harris, you know, may he rest in peace. And just I, I... That came from Balfour. And, and seeing that in people like Angie Shambley. And then did you all know Esteban? Was he there your year? Esteban, tall guy with gl- He might have just worked there my year and the year after. He might have left the year before you. But seeing how... And Kathy Sullivan, and, um, did you guys have Dr. Bote? Yes,

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:02:52

we had,

Joe 1:02:53

sir.

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:02:54

Nahid

Joe 1:02:54

Yes, they were fun. Like, the fact that some of them would stay late at night. Like, I understand, especially now working in higher ed at a college, I know what it's like when it's 5:00 to just wanna go home, right? But a lot of them, I do remember them, like, sticking around, staying, and, and it wasn't just what was in the classroom, right? But, like, th- they were the definition of mentors, I think, right? And, and so I think a huge shout-out has to go to the staff, and I'm sure it's, it's that way now. But you- it's, it's Balfour is the one time in my life where I can say I was cared about from all different levels. From my peers, you know, from other students, from faculty, from staff, and then, you know, my parents being on my ass like, "You better do well" you know? Like, a- and, and that's their form of caring, you know? But, but y- it was the one time in my life... Well, there's been other times, but where I genuinely felt like people actually cared about me. And if I needed support, I'm not the type of person to ask for support or help, but the fact that I've, I've gotten it while I was at Balfour, while I was at Notre Dame, and then even afterwards, that, that speaks a lot to, one, who we are as a people. But our commonality is the Balfour-Hissberg Program, and our positive and our negative experiences at, at Notre Dame

Why Balfour Still Matters

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:04:18

So what do you think, um, like in today's society, do you think that a program like the Balfour-Hesburgh program is needed now more than ever? Or is this something like, you know, the whole controversy about DEIA, blah, blah, blah. Do you think this is something that we don't really need it anymore?

Joe 1:04:40

Sorry, I'm just gonna jump in real

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:04:41

you definitely... I, I, I think we do. I'm just asking,

Jeff Sandate 1:04:45

Oh.

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:04:45

you think about a program like this or this particular program? Do you think it's something that is still so very ne- 'cause it was needed when we were there. It absolutely was. in today's world,

Joe 1:04:57

Yes, it is.

Jeff Sandate 1:04:58

1,000%.

Joe 1:04:59

100%, a thousand

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:05:00

Yeah?

Joe 1:05:01

racism, all the isms exist

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:05:08

Quincy

Quincy Starnes 1:05:08

agree that it's so needed. I, I feel that even if we lived in a utopian society where all of those things were e- magically erased, would still need to happen. And it is bec- it is because even in a utopian society, as people of color, our experience is going to be different. And for us to be able to find our tribe early and have that support as soon as possible, even if we lived in a utopian society, we would still need that tribe and that support because there is nothing like being around people that really understand walk in life. Um, we had, at my job, we had a costume designer. She is the-- I've been at my job for 11 years now, and she is the first Black person that has ever worked at our facility besides myself. And my bosses said, "Y- the way you are now," they were like, "You've always been happy. You've always, you know, come in, done your job well." They were like, "But we see that connection." They were like, "We see and recognize, like, how important her being there is for you." 'Cause, you know, something would happen, and I would just look at her, and she would just look at me, and we were thinking the same. And to just-- We needed those connections. And even, even if we weren't to have Balfour and to come in, we would have to find each other. And at Notre Dame, that's hard to just find each other naturally because we are so spread out, unless you are, like, an athlete, and then you have your built-in community there or something like that. But it is such a necessary and important part of the Notre Dame experience that is needed, for sure

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:07:23

And that was the other thing. Um, if you were a Black male, man, and you went to the University of Notre Dame, everyone assumed you played football, right? And so

Quincy Starnes 1:07:34

Not me.

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:07:34

Black

Quincy Starnes 1:07:35

way I'm built.

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:07:36

not

Quincy Starnes 1:07:36

didn't think that about me

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:07:38

other people But having, having people there who didn't fit the mold for people who look like us was so important. But I don't think you could have just plopped us down into that environment and said, "Here, survive. Go ahead, survive like everybody else." I mean, we will if we have to, but I think that strain would have been too much for some of us. It really would have.

Quincy Starnes 1:08:10

Ayanna, I...

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:08:11

so...

Quincy Starnes 1:08:12

Go ahead. Sorry. I was just gonna say one thing that I remember about Regina and her telling me this, and it's just so telling for a lot of Notre Dame and their experience. She said to me, and I don't know if you were there when she said this, she said, "The only thing I knew about Black people The Cosby Show and Ricki Lake." She was like, "That is the only thing I knew about Black people." So I thought all Black people either acted like the people on Ricki Lake or the people on The Cosby Show. And I told her, I said, "Well, honey, we're all probably a mixture of both," 'cause I can go either way depending on the day. So

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:08:52

And they gave her one of the Blackest Black people a roommate that they could find. Oh my gosh. I, I, you know what?

Proud of Who We Became

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:09:04

I'm so proud of us because when I think of what we went through at Notre Dame, just what we experienced, but what we survived, I'm so proud of us. Like, what do you think your younger self would think about the person you are today? Joe? you're laughing. You're on mute, Joe

Jeff Sandate 1:09:37

You're still on mute, Joe

Joe 1:09:42

Okay. This is how you can tell I'm older than, than all of you. Um, o- one, I, I'm impri- surprised that I'm still alive. Like, I, like, to be honest, I, I, I think that's, that, that's sort of key. But yeah, I, I, I think I would be happy. Like, I'm like, okay, like, it, it's not just the fact that I have a, like a good job, but I have a partner that I love. I'm, I'm happy. I get to travel. Like, I, I think, you know, 17-year-old Joe going into Zahm Hall for the first time with some people he liked, some people he didn't like, and, and, and, and I... You know, that first night, you know, sitting in that room just kind of thinking, if, if, if I saw where I am now, I... Yeah, I think I'd be happy because I am happy, and I, I think that's key, and a lot of the opportunities for that came through Balfour

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:10:32

What about you, Jeff? What do you think younger pre-med Jeff would think about you now?

Jeff Sandate 1:10:38

I think he'd be pretty proud. Um, you know, I, I made it through. I went to school. I, I a husband that, that I love, and I have a family that loves me, and so I think, I think everything has, has, uh, come to fruition far as my dreams have... concerned

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:11:00

Do you think younger you would've been scared to live as you are now? Like, fully,

Jeff Sandate 1:11:08

For sure.

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:11:09

embracing yourself? Yeah

Jeff Sandate 1:11:12

For sure

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:11:13

Yeah. And so now you're, you're... It's like it does, it's not, it's just like it's, it's not a big deal. It's natural.

Jeff Sandate 1:11:23

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:11:24

are.

Jeff Sandate 1:11:25

Yeah

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:11:25

And, like, maybe younger you would've been like, "No, I can't I can't

Jeff Sandate 1:11:30

Probably never would have imagined.

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:11:32

Never would've imagined. Yeah, yeah. What about you, Mr. Starnes Williams?

Quincy Starnes 1:11:40

Um, definitely would be proud because again, I say I would not be who I am now if it had not had been for that Balfour summer. That was my first dip into can I fully be who I want to be? And it was not only the gay part of me, but the Black part of me. The, the, um, the Christian part of me that's not... I'm not Catholic, but you know, going to, you know, taking theology classes and, the intellectual part of me that was challenged. And really look at, I think the biggest thing my 17-year-old self would be like, "Wow, you married somebody 15 years older than you? Like, what is wrong with you? You're a grandparent and you're only 47. What is wrong with you?" That's the part I think 17-year-old me would be like, "What is happening here?" Um, but I mean, as you all know, my dating experience while I was at Notre Dame, I tended to date older men. Um, but

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:12:49

we all have some things we had to right? We all have some things we'd rather not talk about but we laugh about now

Quincy Starnes 1:13:00

Yes But I honestly think, like, I am so much more in touch with my Blackness now than I was when I was 17 years old. Um, s- I walk m- I think I walk, not even think, I know I walk in my Blackness now than I did, and I don't think if I had gone, if I hadn't gone to Notre Dame, happened. Um, my mother specifically that she did not want me to go to an HBCU because she says, "You live in a white world. You gotta learn how to deal with white people." that's just fact of the matter. Like, unfortunately, the world is not all Black. I know there's some pri- a lot of pride with going to a HBCU, but I think going to Notre Dame and being Black and surviving and doing as well as we all did makes you even stronger and more proud in who you are as a person of color in this world. Balfour definitely with that, uh, starting that off right

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:14:13

And Notre Dame, to its credit, I mean, the University of Notre Dame provided us with so many opportunities to immerse ourselves in our culture, right? had the, uh, multicultural student, um, I can't remember the names of things, but you all know what I'm talking about. Uh, was it, it was called OMSA? Office of Multicultural Student Affairs. That's what it was. And we had the, the Black Student, uh, Association. We had, um, the Hispanic side you had folk- was it

Joe 1:14:43

Valenzuela Puerto Rico, and we had LULAC, and then we had HA of Notre Dame, Hispanic A- His- oh, Hispanic Americans of Notre Dame. Yeah

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:14:53

Yeah. So there were so many opportunities for all of us to connect. Um, and, and if we felt lonely, there was somebody there that we could talk to, some group or something we could talk so that we could just go kinda lose ourselves in, and some people we could talk to. But also there were plays, there were, um, musical performances, there were all these things that we could do. Like Joe, you directed, uh, a play

Joe 1:15:22

Direction.

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:15:23

called The Colored Museum. That was an amazing experience. So it's not like we didn't have all of these opportunities to still, you know, embrace our Blackness or embrace the Latino side of us or, you know, kind of if we needed to find somebody just to, to unload about some of the racial stuff that was happening, we had somebody to talk to. Like, th- I mean, they really, they really did try. They really did try. It was still kind of isolating, but they did try. And Balfour H- Hesburgh Program, the Scholars Program, wasn't just a try. It was a success. For me, it was a success. And I know one of the things I will carry with me from that summer, that I still carry with me, is that I can be myself and there will be someone, somebody, I'm about to cry, will be somebody who will accept it, who will find it just fine, who will be okay, who I can settle in with and just be myself with. Like, I don't have to mask, I don't have to pretend. There is someone who will love me. I'll love myself, but there will be someone else who will love me, and you all have been that for me. And so I am so glad that, um, you all are still around and we can still talk like

What We Carry Forward

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:16:43

this. But I also wanna know for you, what's that one thing you still carry with you from your summers in the Balfour Hesburgh program? And I'll start with you, Joe. Go ahead

Joe 1:16:55

I, I'm lucky because I, working in higher ed, I've seen programs like Balfour. Like Princeton has one, like most colleges that I've worked at, and I always compare it to, to, to Balfour. But I, I... Some of the greatest memories of my life are from Balfour Hesburgh. But I, what do I carry most? The, just the, the spirit of positivity, right? Like when, even when we were digging, you know, right when we were in it, there was still someone to keep me aloft, someone to still carry me. And so I, I still keep that, that sort of spirit. And I, I do remember, um, my year as a participant, I, I was... I'm a very d- I was a very difficult person to be friends with. Like, I kind of went in with this like, "Okay, I'm from the East Coast, right? Like I'm from Jersey. Like, I lived near New York. Like, oh, I've been to clubs, I've been to bars, you know. Like, all y'all from, like, you know, the Midwest or California, like, no, you don't, you don't know how to live life." And that, that was a struggle. Like, I did have that like East Coast, like, you know, fake New Yorker thing kind of going. And then Pete Sanchez from Brownsville, Texas, was, was like one... I was having a really bad day and I was walking with friends and, you know, I think it's human nature to just commiserate and, and complain about everything, so I was complaining. And then Pete Sanchez turned around and was like... Like he had had enough, and to shut me up, he said, "You know what, Joe? I appreciate your presence in my life." And I still remember that to, to, to this day, and I've used that, that phrase. And I think part of it was to just shut me up, because I kept complaining nonstop. But he said it with this genuineness, and then I got to see that, like, I appreciated the people, but the people also appreciated me. So that, that sense of appreciation, that sense of even when things are down, you, you have to be there for the, the support. And, and I do that in my role now. Um, so Balfour has impacted me both personally and professionally, you know? And so I'm, I'm able to sort of see that. But th- that, that memory is the one that sort of, one of many, that sort of sticks out. But that's the one as a participant. But as a, as a, an RA, uh, I remember, uh, we were ca- this was around the time of the movie Scream, and we were calling someone and, um... Oh, what, what's your favorite horror movie? There, there was... I, I feel like, Ayanna, you're laughing because I feel like you, you were the, you were the primary culprit of that. Um, so that, that memory...

Quincy Starnes 1:19:27

She was. She was the

Joe 1:19:28

It was the voice, yeah,

Quincy Starnes 1:19:29

remember

Joe 1:19:30

the person who we called. Um, but, but, but yeah, I, that, that's a very funny memory.

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:19:36

Whatever you say happened, I guess it

Joe 1:19:39

maybe it didn't.

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:19:40

I don't remember. What about you, Jeff? What do you carry with you still to this day from your Balfour summers?

Jeff Sandate 1:19:52

I think it's the friendships. I mean, look, it's been, what, 30 years since we've met each other that first time, and so... And we're s- virtually sitting across from each other. And so, you know, it's the friendships that, you know, we're still talking to each other. We're still interested in each other's lives and their goings-on, and I think I'm, I'm just really proud of how every- everything turned out

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:20:17

Still sharing each other's reposts on TikTok. Jeff has, Jeff has a hilarious FYP. I share everything that he shares. It's hilarious. what about you, Quincy?

Quincy Starnes 1:20:32

Um, I would definitely, again, the friendships. I mean, all I have to do is say, "Yellow cab," and y'all know exactly what I'm talking about. I mean, just jokes that we have with each other, the support that we give. I mean, Paulina, I've seen her a couple of times, and whenever she comes to Houston, like, we make a point of seeing each other, and, um, it's just the friendships. I would say it was the, the relief that I'm not the only one. You know? Like I said, 72 kids in my graduating class, and I think five of us were Black And, know, it's, it's going to Balfour and realizing I'm not the only one. I'm not the only great Black hope of somebody's family. There are, there are more of us out there, and we can support each other in this that we have to go through. also learning that there's a place for us, but we have to provide that place for each other. And one of the things that I'm most proud of in my adult life is being a Black male educator who teaches musical theater and dance in the South, that when a Black kid, especially a Black boy, comes in for the first time and they see me and they see that I'm their instructor, and that was one of those things, like, going and seeing Black professors and these Black people who were in higher education who were mentoring and caring about us, and now I get to do that another generation. Well, I think three... I've been, I've been teaching for... I've been at my job for 11 years, but I've been doing this for 20, so, um, that is something that Balfour has... That I've kept those two things, for sure

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:22:35

That is wonderful. And, and yeah, representation matters. Representation means hope. And yes, minority students still need to see each other. We do. We absolutely do. Um, but also commu- it, it, the Balfour-Hesburgh program created community, and community is important as well. Community means it means thriving, it means help, it means, um, reaching out. It means, know, when you're having a tough time, when you're, you know, y- maybe you're not mentally strong, your community is gonna be there to fill in whatever it is you need to be filled in. it means laughter, and it means tears, and it means just hanging out and going to the movies. And community is so important, and Balfour-Hesburgh created a community for us that we carried with us into our elder years. still here. We're still a community, and it, and it's wonderful. I love it. I absolutely love it. I'm so glad that I could still be here with you all and just kinda sit and talk like it's old times. And, and you know, we've all gotten older, and, and we've made some different choices in our lives and... But we're all still the same people. We're still the same people. Still the same. Still, Quincy's still funny. Jeff is still so quiet and cute. And Joe is just Joe. Joe is the big brother. Joe will always be the big brother, always, always, always. And I'll be making the snarky comments from the back forever.

Final Thanks and Sign Off

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:24:07

I'll never change But, uh, you guys have any last words to share with the, with the, the podcast for this episode, you're welcome to do so now

Joe 1:24:20

And I j- I just wanna thank Balfour, you know, and I, I'm sup- 40 years, wow. Um, and you know, the impact that it had on, on my life, um, and, and all of your lives and all the generations that have come since. Uh, I'm proud to be a Bal- a Balfour Hesper student alum.

Quincy Starnes 1:24:43

Yes, I am going to-- I was gonna say the same thing. Just thank you to the Balfour-Hissberg program for giving me that opportunity in, back in 1996 where, you know, wasn't sure if to Notre Dame was the right thing for me, you know, and showing that, yes, there is community there. I won't be alone. Um, I can be authentically myself, and I can make it. Like, yes, I can do the work. I'm gonna have to put in work to do the work, but I can do it, and it is possible

Jeff Sandate 1:25:20

Yes, same. I'm very grateful to have, uh, participated in the program. Very grateful for the kickstart that it gave me to my college career at Notre Dame, and, um, I hope everybody else has the same experience moving forward

Ayana R. Fakhir 1:25:37

And I will echo those sentiments. I'm so glad that Balfour-Hesburgh, uh, plucked this little Black girl from the obscurity of the ghetto and put her in another Midwestern location To be able to thrive and, and f- and pre, pre-face challenges that I would have, uh, uh, during the academic year, and I'm so... I'm grateful. I'm grateful to everybody. I'm grateful to everyone who participated in the program during our years and, uh, to the staff and to, uh, my cohorts, whom are here today, and just the, the university for taking a chance on me and, providing that community lives on to this day. And I am so glad that we could do this, we could be here, and share in the 40th anniversary of the Balfour-Hesburgh program. Oh my gosh, 40 years. That is so wonderful. We are so lucky to be a part of this. And I think our time, I... We've talked. I think maybe, yeah, yeah, we've talked enough. We probably have. We could, we could go on. We could. I, I could, but will cut that off in editing. But, uh, I wanted to say thank you for joining us for the second episode of Dialogue Through the Decades: Conversations with Balfour-Hesburgh Alumni. And thank you to our guest for sharing your wisdom and stories with us. The story of the Balfour-Hesburgh Scholars Program is not only about access to higher education, it is also about what happens when students find community in places where they once expected isolation. It's about mentorship, aspiration, friendship, and about the quiet and profound ways people carry one another through unfamiliar worlds. 40 years later, members of all of the classes are celebrating the anniversary of the Balfour-Hesburgh program. But particularly for us, we still remember the feeling of arriving young, hopeful, unsure, not yet knowing that the people we meet our summer would become part of the architecture of our lives. And for the 40th anniversary of the Balfour-Hesburgh Scholars Program at the University of Notre Dame, I'm Ayana. You met Quincy, Joe, and Jeff. Thank you everyone for listening. for more information about the 40th anniversary shindig throw down, let me go on over to that Uh, for more information about the Balfour-Hesburgh Scholars Program, please visit our website and stay tuned for more information on events our 40th anniversary this fall. To see more about what our students are up to, you can find us on the Gram, Instagram @balfour_hesburgh_scholars. To find out more or to share this series with your friends, please visit think.nd.edu, and remember, go Irish