Episode 8: Let’s Talk FinCrime & Why Your Transaction was Blocked

What’s happening at your bank before you get a call about a suspicious transaction? In this episode we’ll talk with Frank McKenna, Chief Fraud Strategist at Point Predictive  as he shares how consumers can participate in their own fraud protection - and how banks can make friction less challenging for their customers.

Throughout his career, Frank has worked with more than 200 banks, lenders and finance companies to help them solve complex fraud issues. He is also the author of the blog FrankonFraud, where he analyzes fraud trends and reports on their impact.

You can hear more of our conversation with Frank  by visiting actimize.nice.com/podcast

Transcript

Unknown: 0:09

Welcome to Let's talk fin crime, the show where we explain not only what compliance and financial crime are, but most importantly, what it means for you, and how it affects your daily life. I'm your host, Dave Ackerman. I'm a lawyer, former Chief Compliance Officer, and financial regulation expert, for nice atomise based in New York City, we bring you conversations with some of the most interesting people we can find. All designed to help you understand what's happening in the financial world. This week, I want to start with a question for our listeners. has a bank ever frozen your credit card? Because they thought you weren't the one making the purchase? Perhaps, maybe you bought something online out of California, and then tried to fill your gas tank in New York? Or perhaps you just bought a really expensive item for a birthday gift? And you're shipping it to a different address to keep it a surprise. It's really annoying, right? Well, there's a very specific reason your bank is making sure that you were the one making those purchases. In this episode of Let's talk fin crime, we're going to explain how those systems work, what that means for you. And then ways you can protect yourself to minimize the number of times these types of disruptions happen. So without further ado, let's introduce our guest, Frank McKenna. is the chief fraud strategist at point predictive, Frank is a fraud strategist who's worked with over 200, banks, lenders, finance companies. And he's also the author of an insanely popular blog that I follow Frank on fraud. Frank, it's great to have you with us. I'm actually really excited to have this conversation with you, Dave, thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm excited to talk about this. You know, I've dealt with this for many years talk to a lot of consumers and banks about this particular issue. So I'm excited to kind of inform your listeners about what's going on behind the scenes. Indeed, and it's, it's interesting to me, because I think that a lot of the frustration that people have, when these types of things happen are because they don't know what's going on behind the scenes. So let's start like, let's start right there. So when a consumer transactions blocked, and you get that notification or your app goes off, or the fraud department calls, what's going on? Why did that happen? Like what's going on behind the scenes before you get all of these notifications? Absolutely. So let me let me tell you what I think I think there's really nothing worse than getting your credit card blocked and getting stranded. I've been in that position myself, you know, I've been overseas, middle of the night year, you don't know where to call you can't make you can't make it make your payment to the hotel or maybe the restaurant you're at. So I get it. It's a big, it's a big frustration. But B literally only has happened to me when I'm overseas. that exact scenario, like I have to pay for my it's a long flight got to get you know, got to get into the hotel, I'm sorry, sir, your cards, the client, you just kind of want to bang your head against the wall. Absolutely. The fact that I've kind of worked in the industry for many years, I used to be a fraud analyst work for a bank, I took 1000s of calls from people complaining about just what you described. But the decision to block an account is informed by technology, and by fraud experts that the bank has invested millions of dollars in. So you have to remember, you're getting blocked because there is a massive amount of fraud that's occurring yearly on a credit card, globally, about $30 billion in credit card fraud is taking place. Billions of dollars are getting lost consumers and banks are being impacted like never before. So the banks have invested literally millions of dollars in technology to try to stop that. So when you swipe your card, let's say you're overseas, like you were Dave, and you swipe your card, there, in that second it takes for you to get the response back whether you're approved or declined. There's a lot of things happening behind the scenes, the first thing that's happening is that card is going through a vast network through Visa and MasterCard or let's say American Express, the system behind the scenes is checking first off if the cards genuine. Is it a counterfeit card, you know, does the name match, you know, to what they issued the card in? Is the expiration date matching? You know, does it look like the card might be counterfeited? So, there's a lot of technology that just just looking at counterfeiting, then the system is going through and making sure that you have credit available. So do you have enough money to make that payment? The system is going through and making sure that you know the account is in good status. You know, have you made your payment is everything in good status that you can prove the transaction So, right away, there's just a ton of checks that are going into say, can we even approve this because of the card and because of the account, but we're like, it seems like science fiction, right? Because I mean, it, when you're standing there and you're paying with something for your credit card, like when I'm checking out at, at the food store, it feels like an eternity. But in reality, it's only three or four seconds, that that the cards processing. So you need to tell me that behind the scenes, all this is happening, all this is happening, there's probably, if you were to break it down the number of computations that are going in, in that four seconds less here overseas is four seconds. In the US here, it's more like probably one, one and a half seconds, right? It's very, very quick. But overseas, you know, this communication lags. But behind the scenes, there's actually 1000s and 1000s of computations, taking place simultaneously to to determine if that card is legitimate, and that the transaction is real, that is you making that purchase. So lots is going into that. But that's only the start those checks that I just mentioned, are just the tip of the iceberg. What happens after the banks make sure the cards good and your accounts good as it goes into what they call an artificial intelligence scoring system. And this is where there is some real intelligence going behind the scenes to see if that credit card transaction is valid. So what it's doing is it's using machine learning these, they're called models, and what they're doing is they're going through, they're trained based on the patterns on billions and billions of credit card transactions. Before years, they've been trained to spot the patterns of fraud. And what these models are doing, it's checking, pretty much if you were to break it down probably two to 3000 different questions that it's gonna ask about that transaction. Immediately. It's gonna say, you know, Dave, have you been to this merchant before? If you go to this merchant regularly, it's probably legitimate. And if you have been to that merchant, how much do you spend, you know, if you regularly spend $200, but all of a sudden, there's a $800 $1,000 transaction? That doesn't look like you. So the system a flag for that? Have you been to similar merchants, maybe, you know, usually go to Best Buy, but then you want to, you know, another store you shopped online because you didn't get the deal you want to Best Buy? That might seem like that's a that might be a legitimate transaction, then it breaks down how quickly is the car being used? You know, have you have you Dave made three transactions in the last 10 minutes, you know, that might indicate a potential fraud where your cards been lost or counterfeited. So interesting. I want to hold it for one second, because I want to make sure that and all this is happening in that split second. All of this is happening, it's about 200 milliseconds, believe it or not, all these 3000 questions are getting answered. That's, that's insane to think about. And the average person has no idea that that's happening. And it's interesting that you said that the the models are kind of generating this based on all of these different questions. You know, sometimes, if I go to a gas station, and they pump your gas, and they pump, they punch in, let's say the wrong zip code for your credit card, and they try to do it two or three times, immediately, my car gets shut off immediately. It's happened multiple times to me, because I have an out of state zip code on that particular card. So it drives these computations. Crazy, apparently. But let me kind of shift gears a little bit. Why don't people know that this is happening behind the scenes? I mean, you would think that if banks are spending all of this money to protect their their customers, that they would try to kind of educate consumers in all of these preventative methods that are happening behind the scenes, is that why do you think that people aren't more knowledgeable about stuff like this? I think I think part of it might be by design, maybe banks do not want to reveal the secret sauce that's going into these computations, because they don't want fraudsters to know how they can bypass the system. So part of that might be they want to disguise a little bit of the secret sauce behind these computations, to not give fraudsters the edge. But I also think it's complicated. And I think banks don't necessarily understand how do you explain these types of things to consumers. But I really do think that banks should be more proactive in giving at least some basic information about their fraud protections, why it's important. Don't leave the customers in the dark because that's where customers get confused. They get upset, and they sometimes cancel their accounts when they get, you know, very upset, often multiple times. So I do think education of consumers is really important. So that's interesting. I I think you make a very real point that this, you know, in business, they constantly say when expectation does not match reality, you get frustration. So the expectation of the consumer is, I put my card in, I wait my 200 milliseconds, I walk out with my stuff. So whenever, regardless of whether or not what's happening to prevent that, is in the best interest of the consumer. I would imagine that that's not how people are framing, you know, if you've got a screaming child, and you have you have to get in the car, you've got 1500 things to do. This is just one more thing going wrong. And meanwhile, it's not really like in the in the grand scheme of things. Is it really that big a deal? How hard is it? For most consumers to correct the error? Yeah. So, you know, you bring up an interesting point and having taken 1000s of calls from consumers that have been declined. I'll tell you the number one thing they would say immediately, when I pick up the phone to answer them is I made my payment. Why did you decline my card? They like his first instinct is my card shut off, because I didn't pay the bill. And I didn't you know, what's messed up is I'm in this business. I know what happens behind the scenes. And that's still my first instinct. Right? And so consumers take it as a rejection of them as a person, but it's really not that it's actually a protection of them, using, you know, lots of technologies. I don't think it's very hard. To be honest, I think, banks number one, what can banks do, they can put messages in the mailers, you know, you get your statement every month, but a message about this technology that used to protect you give customers the second thing would be give customers a mechanism, you know, and customers don't realize this. But if you have a credit card, you can oftentimes if you're going to be traveling overseas, and you know you're going to be traveling overseas, you can call your bank and let them know, between these dates, I'm going to be overseas, I'm going to be purchasing a, you know, hotels and dinners, you can actually proactively call your bank, let them know. So when you are overseas, the banks have a mechanism to not decline you for those types of purchases. consumers don't know that. But they can actually call their bank and get some relief before so they can be proactive. The other thing they can do is banks are now offering consumers you can go online, typically on your account, and you can actually set up alerts. So banks can bring customers into the fraud protection by letting the consumers get alerts when transactions are out of pattern. So if you want to get an alert on your cell phone, anytime there's a large purchase over a certain dollar amount, or anytime there's a purchase overseas, or anytime there's a purchase online over a certain dollar amount, you can actually do that now. So you can actually proactively get those alerts. If you see anything unusual, you the customer, you can actually call your bank proactively and tell them about the fraud before they have to reach out to you and block your card. So there's a lot that's been enabled to make this whole process so much simpler. It's funny, because as you're talking, I am getting just flooded with memories of my own. Where would that exact scenario has happened? I mean, eons ago, when I proposed to my wife, I bought the ring from an online shop. And just almost instantaneously, I got a phone call. So yeah, about that. So is this year, you've never bought anything like this before. And I'm joking around with the representative that I'm on the phone like, Well, yeah, hopefully I'm not doing it again, either. So here's something it's just it's really interesting like that, right? Like, you know, these one time, big time purchases that you make throughout the course of your life are more like counterintuitive, right? Well, yeah, and here's something that to me is maybe this is because I worked in a bank for a long time, but you would be surprised how many people buying Valentine's gifts, rings, you know, engagement rings, that the banks are calling the spouse or the fiance before they actually get the ring to verify the purchase. So they're ruining a lot of these surprises because they've seen a$4,000 they see a $4,000 10,000 whatever $15,000 purchase for a ring. They call the phone home phone number, you know the person that's going to get proposed to picks up the phone. And he says while you're he's out, you know, do you know if he's out shopping for a ring and immediately this has happened over and over again. So sometimes these these blocks and these calls can actually backfire in a big way. Wow. So that seems like a perfect place to take a quick commercial break. For those of you who are listening and thinking about proposing, that's a massive pro tip from Frank, call ahead, let them know, listen, this is a transaction I'm making. I'm freaking out about it enough. Please don't ruin the surprise. So just hang on one second, we're gonna take a quick commercial break. And we'll be right back with Frank maganda. Are you part of a financial institution interested in sophisticated AI, powerful analytics and intelligent data? Join nice atomize engage live on June 9 and 10th. To hear from industry experts and exciting keynotes as we work together to fight financial crime, visit nice, atomized, calm slash engaged to sign up for free. So Frank is a fraud data scientists who's worked with over 200, banks, lenders, finance companies, and essentially he helps them solve fraud related issues that impact customers, just like you were, we've just been talking about some of the sometimes funny if it's not happening to you, frustrations that are created for customers, when banks attempt to fight fraud. But let's move the conversation a little bit to understanding why the safeguards are in place. And and kind of building on a few of the tips that Frank previously gave on what you can do to help protect yourself and also potentially avoid any embarrassing phone calls. routing a surprise. So bright, I'm kind of curious about something that you had mentioned at the very beginning of the conversation, you had said that credit card fraud worldwide is did you say $20? billion, it's about $30 billion. Well, excuse me rounding over my 30 billion. So that's, that's the GDP of a small country. So with so I'm kind of curious that there is a common theme that we talk about on this show his efficacy, how efficient the things that people don't know are happening behind the scenes are in protecting that, and 30 billion seems like an awful lot of money to me. So with all of these 1000s of computations that are happening in that 200 milliseconds that my card is in the machine. how effective are we really at fighting credit card fraud? Yeah, let me tell you, so actually very effective. Okay, I'll tell you what, yeah, we're, as an industry, the banks are doing, I think, a really good job. The promises are just so much of it that some of its going to slip through, right, that 30 billion probably represents just 5%, or maybe 10% of the attempts, right? Most of the attempts are getting getting stopped, and they're getting stopped because customers accounts are getting blocked. But if we think about how, if effective are those solutions, think about this, the odds of fraud on a random credit card transaction is about one in every 1000 or 1500 transactions. So it's actually one over that 1500 when most banks, if they're going to block your account, their threshold for blocking your account is typically if the odds that it is fraud, based upon the models and the scores and all the rules they have, if it's not 25% to 33% odds of being fraud, they won't block you. Typically, that's most banks. So you think about the odds, if you think about random odds of credit card fraud, it's about 10 basis points, so less than 1/10 of 1%. But they won't block you unless it's 25% odds of fraud. So they're very, very efficient and effective, typically, when they decide to block your account. So if you get blocked, it's because typically something is very, very, very unusual that if it is approved, there's a 33% chance you'll be a victim of fraud. So Wow. See that? That's important. I mean, to me, that is the crux of everything. You don't need to divulge the secret sauce of how you're doing this, in order to educate the consumer to say that that statement, right, there seems to me to be the whole show. If your credit card gets blocked, that means that there was a 33% chance or better that that transaction was fraud and we're trying to make sure that that you are doing this and then you are protected from losing out. I mean, I don't know many people who would argue with that Yeah, absolutely, I certainly don't when I get calls from my bank, and you know, I view it as actually Thank you very much. In fact, they called me last week and stopped a prod that I didn't know about. So I actually viewed as a real positive thing a chance to interact. So, to me, I look at it from a statistical perspective, I say, I don't want to, I don't want to take a 33% chance of being a victim of fraud. Call me send me a text. I don't care. I want to interact with you. I want to tell you if it's fraud or not, yeah, you kidding, a 33% chance of fraud on my card, you can knock on my door, if you want to. There's Well, I mean, but I think that like, like I said earlier that that idea that you know, the expectation, is your transactions going to go a certain way? And then when the reality is that that doesn't happen. And then when you combine that with your statement earlier, that people take it personally, oh, you blocked my card because of something I did. And a lot of it sounds to me like, and I would love your opinion on this. It sounds to me, like a lot of that friction could simply be mitigated if if consumers simply understood that this is nothing personal, it is a protective measure. It's what do you think? Absolutely. I think it's, you have to look at as a protective measure, especially in today's world, where there's so much fraud, that you have to, I would say, participate with your bank, be a partner with your bank. help them understand your situation. So if you're going to be traveling, like we said, you know, let them know, you know, set up your alerts so that you can proactively notify them, make sure that your bank has your right phone number, you'd be surprised how many people get blocked in the bank can't reach them, you got to update your phone number with your bank or email address, so that they can send you those text messages so that they can send you those emails. because believe it or not, from my experience, about 10 to 15% of customers don't have the right phone number on their account. So when they get blocked, the bank has no way to notify them. So the only way that the customer finds out is the next time they try to use their card. And then they're pissed because not only they get blocked once they got blocked twice. And that's really where the frustration comes in when it's multiple times. I mean, absolutely, totally understand that. And that is almost mind boggling. One of the constant themes that we have on this show is trying to help educate people to take ownership of their own financial not future necessarily, but their own, their own finances, just understanding what is going on behind the scenes so that they can make better decisions, make more informed decisions, and communicate with their financial institutions on a much deeper level. So it's a point we'll take but I want to kind of round out this conversation a little bit to something you had said about the efficacy of it sounds like it sounds like we're really efficient in this. But I would I would, I'm gonna venture a guess here that a lot of that has to do with the technological innovations that you mentioned, these 1000s of computations that are going on in milliseconds. But what what did we do before all this technology existed? So you know, how long ago was it that we were learning lessons the hard way? And what did that look like? Well, I have personal experience with that, because I started off in as a fraud analyst in credit card fraud in 1990, many years ago, and by fighting credit card fraud, he was not engaging. Or were you Frank, no judgments? I mean? Absolutely not. There's nothing I hate more than fraud. So I'm been an anti fraud fighter for 30 years, I guess. But before this technology, it was all about people going through huge stacks of paper manually going through looking at tons of credit card transactions, making judgment calls. And this way I got, I would go through and I just they handed me a huge stack of paper and say, block accounts when you think they're fraud. And so I'd have to just pull up the account, look at it, and say, do all sorts of analysis myself and say, Okay, this looks like fraud and I block it. I could only get through maybe 30 or 40 a day so I could not compete with any technology. And I honestly as good as I thought I was about 50% of the time I was making the bad decision. So before all this technology, it was just about people looking at it and just applying kind of brute force. It was super ineffective. It was super inefficient. And there was tons of fraud week. Didn't get ahead of the fraud because we couldn't work fast enough and we couldn't work smart enough. Wow. So. So as we've gotten better over the years, how much more of an impact do you think we're able to have on that fraud now than we did, let's say, either when you first started, or even 20 years ago, we're probably, you know, without knowing that the true estimate, we're probably 75 to 80%, better using technology than we were 30 years ago. The fact is, if we were, if we didn't have this technology, credit card fraud, instead of being 30 billion would probably be 150 200 300 million 300 billion, we just don't know. Because you never know, when you have the technology and what you would not have stopped without it. So this would be a much, much bigger problem. There might even be credit cards, because it'd be so much fraud, that we no profits for the banks, it just wouldn't work without the technology. That makes sense to because over over the course of the last 30 years, I mean, if you think about it, the idea of online shopping. I mean, Amazon just reported with something like they crushed reports by their income reports by 40%, or something ridiculous. And if, if you are getting through manually, you're 4040 transactions a day. And that was the same now, I mean, the number of people that would need to be employed in order to even make a dent, or, I mean, I just you're I, I never thought of it that way. I think you're right, it just, it wouldn't be profitable for banks to be in the credit card business anymore. It wouldn't be profitable, they would be so much fraud, that they could not make any money on it, because they'd be just paying out fraud. I mean, I actually have worked with banks who are ready to close down their major major banks in the world, ready to close down their credit card portfolios, because it was just too much fraud. They couldn't have amazing sustain, but they had to, it was because they weren't blocking anything. There was a there's a thing, this bank was not blocking customers accounts because they didn't want upset customers. But because they weren't blocking accounts, they were going to go out of business and none of their customers would have cards. So that's important to know is like these fraud controls are good, because that's the only reason you have these cards. If you didn't have those fraud controls, the banks could even give it to you, it'd be just too much fraud, and it wouldn't work. Again, that's that is an insanely important point that I think most people don't realize they just see the inconvenience to themselves, which is perfectly understandable. Because if you don't understand the world that's happening in this massive universe that's going on. I mean, it's almost inconceivable for someone, I mean, I'm in the business myself, and I still don't get it sometimes, like how that's possible, in two seconds. 100 millisecond, like something crazy like that. So I want to end this conversation with where's the money going? So we've got all this credit card fraud, right? Is it? Is it just some 16 year old kid trying to use my card to buy an Xbox and send it to, you know, his mother's basement? Or who are the people that are engaging in the I mean, I love getting the phone call about my extended warranty when I live in New York City and I don't own a car. So, you know, these these credit card fraud schemes that are eliciting this money? Where does that money go? What happens to it? So the money doesn't go to good things. Alright, so yes, you do have the 16 year old kid buying the Xbox and he's getting the Xbox to play games. That's not, that's not the overwhelming majority of the front. A lot of the money that's being stolen from your credit card, when it's when it's defrauded, going to terrorist so it could be going overseas to fund terrorism. It's going into sometimes criminal gangs. So they're using the money to buy drugs, buy weapons, you know, violence, it's going to human trafficking. It's going to violent crimes, it's the money is going to other crimes. So credit card fraud is fun, when it happens is funding crimes across the world. But also here in the US. A lot of it goes to drugs because people are addicted drugs, they're stealing credit cards. So nothing good comes up that money that's being stolen from your credit card. Another reason why people should really care about you know, participating with their bank to stop it because if you can help your bank stop that fraud, you help that money not going into a criminals hands to be used for nefarious purposes. Another good reason to really pay attention and not allow fraud. Yeah, that's something else that we talk about a lot. Because I don't it's hard sometimes for the average person who, who is involved in the financial world to see the underbelly of it, and you see in movies often, you know, they'll talk about it in the abstract like, they're, this is funding terrorism, or these terrorists have, you know, cash flow from this, or they they've got a billion dollars to do this. And I think what a lot of people don't realize because, you know, it doesn't make for good entertainment is a lot of these crimes that we see that that money is untraceable, right, if you if you think about the the vast majority of transactions throughout the world. And even in cash transactions, and a lot of cases, you know, where it's going, you know, where that money flow is going. And people like Frank and myself, we can track it. And we've got the experience to do that now. And we have the tools, and the information is being made available to various different agencies around the world in order to do these things. Now, when you talk about things like bank fraud, credit card fraud, like we're talking about now, it is it is insanely difficult to track where that money goes after the fact. And it's only the, you know, you might be asking, well, then how can he make that claim that it's going to terrorism, it's going to drugs. It's after the fact it's after we catch the criminals, and then we we audit, and then do basically a forensic accounting. We can backtrack where all of this came from, or a good portion of it came from. And and that's the frustration. So for people like Franklin like myself, one of the reasons we're even doing this podcast is to help you understand that, yes, it's annoying when your credit card gets shut off. Like there's no doubt about it. Okay. And I would probably lose my cool slightly if somebody ruined a massive surprise, like, purchasing an engagement ring or or, you know, a big birthday present or a big trip to be used as an anniversary gift, something along those lines. And at the same time is inconvenient. Yes. Is it frustrating? Absolutely. Is it a necessary evil? I think Frank, very clearly articulated? Absolutely. Because every time that that trigger, that 30% or 33% chance of that transaction happening, could be fraud. That's money that could be you being used to fund the drug trade, the human trafficking, money laundering, I mean, it just the list goes on and on. People that you do not want in any way, shape or form to have this unlimited untraceable flow of funds. So, Frank, I'm just kind of a one to one parting thought for from your experience. I mean, I know I take a lot of pride in what I do. Because for every for every person that we stop for every person that gets convicted, even even just delaying their business operations. A short period of time is that's that's one less terrorist activity funded, that's one less, you know, some sort of criminal activity that is being disrupted, even if it's just temporarily in, in your experience, is there is there any one particular moment that you just kind of refer back to all the time that that kind of keeps you going or that one kind of proud moment that you have throughout the course of your illustrious career? Yeah, I think I think when I go back, and I think about the last 30 years in fighting fraud, there's a handful of cases that I dealt with. There was an elderly lady who was a victim of fraud. And I reversed the charges on her account for her because she was scammed. And I spent about an hour I wasn't supposed to do it, but I spent about an hour talking to her about, you know, don't give your credit card out to these people that are calling you. And it took a while because she didn't understand why she shouldn't give her credit card out to this people that just randomly called her. You know, the very next day, I get a call in the morning and she said, You know what? They called me last night I was gonna pull up my credit card, and then I remembered our conversation. And it was just that time that I spent with her educating her as she wasn't didn't become a victim. And what it really showed me is that if we as an industry you know, Dave, myself and others All the other fraud fighters out there take the time to explain to customers what fraud is and how to avoid it, we can make a huge difference. And to me, that was the one moment I kind of reflect back on and say, you know, that's what I want to do. That's why I spent my whole career doing this. I want to help people. And I want to help them avoid getting becoming victims, because every time I do, they're going to tell somebody else and then we're all gonna fight fraud together. To me, that was a moment one moment that mean, meant a lot to me. That's amazing. And I know a lot of our colleagues around the world have similar stories to let just like that. Frank McKenna is the chief fraud strategist at point predictive, as he said, Frank's done this for 30 years and at $30 billion in crime saved that means that this man has fought almost a trillion dollars worth of fraud. Throughout his career. Frank helps banks lenders finance companies solve fraud related issues that impact customers, just like you and as I mentioned earlier, he is the author of a very, very cool and popular blog, a blog, Frank on fraud. So Frank, could you please tell those listeners who would like to get in touch with you how to do so or how to learn more about your company? So yes, if you want to reach me, I mean, I'm happy to talk to you whether you're a consumer or you're, you know, a bank, I talked to anybody about fraud anytime might, you can reach me via my email, which is F McKenna, FMC k e n n ey at point predictive.com. Or you can reach me at Frank mckennitt@gmail.com. You can also check out my blog for income fraud and there's a contact page there. You can reach me there as well. So yeah, looking forward to talking to anybody that needs advice on fraud or, or just wants to hear what's happening out there. Awesome. Thanks, Frank. I appreciate it. Thanks again for listening. Please don't forget to subscribe. If you have an idea for a show or if you're interested in being a guest, we would love to hear from you. So drop us a line at podcast at nice atomized calm Don't forget we have bonus content for every episode available at Active Minds dot nice comm forward slash podcast. Frank, I want to thank you again, for an awesome conversation. This was really enlightening. I hope a lot of people got something out of it. And I hope you enjoyed it, too. I really did. I enjoyed it. And I really appreciate that you're doing this for people educating them about you know what's going on behind the scenes. I think it's super important. So thanks for having me. I appreciate it. And thank you all for listening. And we will see you on the next episode of Let's talk fin grow