EPR Minisode 13: Navigating a Complex Job Market with Nic and Laura

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode Nic and Laura discuss navigating the current job market. 

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Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental enthusiasts, Nick and Laura. On today's mini episode, Laura and I talked to each other about navigating a complex job market. And, and right to the end, finally, in light of my trip to Phoenix, here are some fun Roadrunner facts. They are straight bosses. I had no idea. They eat rattlesnakes, they nest in cactuses and will sometimes lay their eggs in other birds' nests. So. I like to think that they do that to like their enemies, you know, like, you ate my grubs, here you go, new bird, good luck. Just menaces, it's, it's actually they should be chasing like coyote and then Looney tunes. I was like, wow, OK. That is hilarious. I just wanna hear you say straight bosses again, bosses. I don't know. That's my attempt to be cool. I'm like people still say that, is that still a thing? I don't know. And um Marley's like no. 

But yeah, on that note, hit that music.

 I, one of the things I was thinking about talking about this week was they have a lot of turmoil, job, people leaving jobs, some people are retiring from the federal government, but there's going to be a flood of new people entering, entering into MySpace, right, the consulting world, right? And in a way that sounds like, oh great, you're gonna have all these new great candidates that you're going to go after. But I don't know, we, we haven't really talked a ton about balancing, hiring people versus the work that you have, right? And I just talked with my team, we had a, a great summit in Phoenix. It was wonderful, it was lovely, uh, great time. One of the things I asked them is like, OK, what do we need personnel wise, right? And they basically said something along the lines of, for the whole program, we need maybe 1 or 2 junior staff, 2 or 3 mid-levels, right? So that's what they're saying, which means, you know, I probably can't do that exactly, it's probably not gonna be exactly what I can do, but that means that there's a need, right? And so there's at least a need for some of that. So how do we kind of manage hiring new people, even if we're gonna get a talent, it doesn't mean that we're gonna get more projects because we're actually probably going to see fewer projects this year than we would normally. And maybe that's true, and maybe it's not. So it's just, it's actually really hard to tell right now with the federal government how things are going to go. We have an idea, but it's a little bit new and challenging. 

So that's, I guess my frame for you as a as a making me feel better about how difficult things. What advice do you have for and I don't know, it's not just my company, there's lots of others. So how do people deal with seeing an influx of talent coming from the federal government and balancing that with everything else we're doing. That's a loaded question. So. I mean, I think that's on everybody's minds, especially career seekers, you know, those who are looking to possibly change careers, you know, at the EPA, but do I wait, do I jump ship? What do I do? You know, a lot of people are asking themselves that question, how long do I wait before I jump out of the boat while it's sinking, you know? And, um, and then other people are just graduating and they're like, oh my gosh, these people are jumping out of the boat and trying to get in my boat. How do I, how do we all fit on this thing? So, and as an employer, you can only guess as best as you can, you know, and I think the best thing you can do is just try to make your best guess, plan accordingly, but also set expectations with people. I think I've seen a lot of companies hire people and not, it's like they don't understand the full realization that you're paid based on projects, and if those projects go away, you may not still have so. I think people need to understand that and, you know, if you're hiring, you should be clear and upfront with people what the situation is. 

And maybe you don't hire full-time employees during this period. You know, that's very costly too, to on board someone fully, and then in 6 months, 9 months, say, oh, sorry, we didn't get the projects we thought we were going to get, and now we're going to let you go. So, you know, can you hire people part time or or contract based until things are smoother. And I don't, I really don't know if I would imagine every company has its own practices and policies around those types of things. Yeah. Oh yeah, and, you know, it's funny to think about flexibility, like that's for like a lot of the field work we do. Those projects have a really intense field. session and then it's over. And so sometimes we'll just hire people just to do that, you know, temporary workers to help dig shovel test pits for cultural resources, for example. You know, you're doing that for like maybe a month or two for a large project, and that requires, you know, 56 people, but afterwards, you don't need that, you need 1 or 2 to write the report. 

So there is some of that. I mean, honestly, I'd never thought about doing it as a planning model like that, but there's even like, there's challenges, like there's this is such a dorky like. stuff, but like there's a cap on when you become full time, right? So when you go from part time to full time, and when you, when you have full time, you get benefits, right? That's the the rules. And that is not 40 hours a week because I think it's actually 32. So it's a funny thing how that is. It's like you get benefits when you're at 32 hours. And I know all this because these are all the things I've had to deal with, right? But that's it's hard to do. It's hard to figure out like if you can hire somebody who's Going to be part time, that should be full time, but you're not sure how long the work is going to be. That's hard. It's just a hard thing to wrap my brain around, and I know other people are going through it too, so yeah. Yeah. And on the flip side to make this conversation relevant to everyone listening, if you are job seeking, to shift your mindset to thinking, can I apply to contract based work and shorter-term things and make myself valuable in that way. To a company rather than just looking for what would normally be, I'm looking for something I'm gonna stay at for a while and just saying like, I'm just going to gain experience anywhere and everywhere I can and knowing, and then you have to plan the same sort of way. You got to plan your budget saying, you know, I might be back. Couchsurfing for a little while after I get this next block of experience. Yeah, and it's like, it's funny, like, you still have a value add, I think younger professionals in particular coming into a field, the value add they have is that they're very cheap, right? 

They're just comparatively, they can make money and still do some of the job, and, you know, obviously not all of it, and obviously there's some training and there's some buildup to get you where you want to be, but There is a lot of value in that, and it's something that will help you no matter what, cause there's gonna be a lot of people coming out of the government that are gonna want huge salaries, and, you know, companies like mine can't afford, can maybe afford one of those, not 10. Right, so whatever the, the value is, when you have a, you know, junior staff coming out, there's still gonna be uh almost desperate need for that because there's a lot more hours doing some of the tedious work. That takes a lot more time than it does to give advice, right? It's harder to write a document than it is to say fix that sentence. So there's still gonna be, I think, really good value. That's a good point. Yeah, and to that point, I mean, I've seen this before in hiring in 2009, 2010. 

Yeah, exactly what I was thinking about, right? Yeah, where you have seasoned 30 years in professionals hiring or applying, interviewing for the same job as people who are just graduating. And you can feel how difficult that is for that person to be applying for something that is well beneath their years of experience but knowing that they have no choice. And, and then both sides of that, the person with the experience is saying, you know, oh gosh, this sucks. I have to compete with, with college kids. But the college kids are then saying, well, and they're saying, well, I'm not going to get the job because the college students are cheaper. And then the students are saying, well, I'm not going to get the job because they have more experience, but it really depends on the employer. The conversations with the employer are, what is our budget? What do we know about this person? Does this person, you know, once you're a seasoned professional, you come with a reputation. So this is when that comes into play is what kind of person and network have you built? If you have a good community, you're probably going to land on your feet. If you haven't been doing that, you're gonna be in a bigger challenge than you needed to be in. And like some of this is so organic. For better or worse, you can text on planes sometimes and, and on my way to Phoenix, I am furiously texting several different people from several different agencies who are just people I've worked with over the years that I really like and I'm friends with, right? 

But they just so happen to work at several different agencies. So I'm hearing what's going on in the federal government, not just from one source, not from two, but from like 5. And people that that are part of my network, and some of them I would genuinely hire in a heartbeat. I was like, hey, we'll figure it out, you know, come hang out with me. But they're also, they may not even need to leave. But yeah, you're totally right, and there is a reputation, and that can be good and bad, right? Like you're allowed to have a reputation in in lots of different ways. Um, that can be really scary and that can be daunting, and companies will take advantage of people who are working under their means. But if we look at 2009, 2007, 2009, that's when I came out of grad school, right? We've talked about that on the show before. I came out of grad school like, OK, I went in, I went in and I was like, man, there's so many jobs I cannot wait to get through grad school and great. I got out, I'm like, Where are all the jobs? And they're like, What jobs? you know. Um, so it took a long time. It took me 6 months, I think, to get something that wasn't even close to my field. It ended up working out OK or better than OK, but it was tough. But then, you know, a couple years after that, we were kind of back to normal and the economy started growing again. So you gotta hope that even if there is turmoil now, it won't be forever. Yeah, a new normal or balance will emerge. And but in the interim, when a person finds themselves saying, I'm to this, or I'm to that, or they're more qualified or they're more this, it's more beneficial to focus on the value. you, you know, you could bring to the table, rather than the assumptions you're making about the people you're competing against. And the real life conversations that go on behind the scenes are, well, this person has this many years' experience, but they probably won't stay. 

We're looking for someone who's starting their career and wants to stay a while. So that's when you may have an advantage, you don't know you have. Yes. Yes, and it's funny to say it, but sometimes personality matters, even if you have a great Reputation, if you don't click with the team that you're working with or that you're interviewing with, I actually played a clip in the meeting about Brian Regan has a uh a bit about meeting someone at a party who talks enough for everybody, where he's like, I myself and me and I, and say, me and I, and I don't know about but I, but I and me and I, and he just keeps going and on and on me, you know, and like the me monsters, right? Those are people who can be really intelligent, really great at their jobs, can be absolute experts. And are people that will not fit with most teams, not all teams, but most teams are going to struggle with that. So yeah, personality matters. Personality doesn't matter, the experience that you have on your resume matters, but the other thing, you know, right now with competition being high and everything, and it's just really important to keep. Building your reputation, and you really can't blame the companies for a lot of people want to get mad about a company hiring someone they know, whether it's a relative or an existing employer, or volunteer, and you can't blame them because that saves them money. And it's less risky and business is all about minimalizing risk. 

Like at the end of the day, that's what you're doing, offering a service at the least amount of risk as you possibly can. And hiring someone that you already have information about is less risky. So I ask people not to take that personally because it is a business decision and it has nothing to do with them. Whether it's right or wrong, that's a different, different scenario, but it is not personal, it's just is kind of the way things in and if you. Think of it more that way, then I think you can stop hating on it and make yourself that person. How can I be the person they already know through networking or communication, volunteering, coming to NAP meetings, like whatever that is, you know, like, become known so that you can be that person. And yeah, you know, what are your means, how can you do that, right? The internet gives you access to people all over the place and I'm telling you, LinkedIn. I know, but it really is. I've conducted interviews from people. I mean, if someone reaches out to me and says, Hey, I want you to interview me, I'm like, OK, good. Let's see. You put yourself out there, I've got a job posting. Let's go. Let's see, because I, I like someone who is proactive, right? You're not just going to sit and wait for me to to find you, you're going to find me. And it sounds like you have a great culture. I know because I looked up what you did. Here are some of the things I like about what your team seems to be. How true is that, you know, ask a question about it, you know, for sure. 

And that right there is getting known and minimizing the risk. You have less risk because you already know this person is willing to at least make that connection. I had somebody one time reach out and say, my mom told me I should send you a message. And I was like, well, you can thank your mother because you're actually gonna get an interview. I know. I mean, it's she didn't have her mother do it for her. That's another thing. I will tell anybody, anyone listening, do not 100% ever have a parent or relative submit your application for you. My daughter would be great. Well, I'd love to hear from her. Exactly. That's the most biased person there is. Like, I can't trust a single thing that a parent would say to me about how great their kids are. Well, and it just tells me, you know, Nick doesn't want the job, but I want him to have the job. Yeah, right, exactly, exactly. If he wants it so bad, how come he didn't submit it himself? Exactly. It's funny, I mean you mentioned risk and I think it's important for people to realize like the higher up the position is, the higher the risk, right? When you get to a point where you're at a senior position, there's huge risk because it can go wrong and when it goes wrong, you have a giant hole the hole is bigger. That's the way to put it. So I like the messaging too, that everybody has value and everybody, every company is gonna have different needs too. Some are not going to want to be very risky right now, and they're only going to hire junior staff. 

And they probably don't want to hire somebody who's even, and some may not want to hire people who are, like you said, career seekers who are just going to leave once a better opportunity comes along. And that's a real fear that I would have with somebody like that too. It's like, oh, you're a GS-14 and this is a junior science position. There's not a fit here, you know, I mean, that's what I would say, honestly. Yeah, because you know what's going to happen. Yeah, they're going to try to take your job, Nick. Yeah. Uh, I feel I have to think, I, I would like to think that I have a network that that would let me know, hey, but you know, like there's always competitive things, there's always stuff that you have to come and navigate through. You do it with grace and you, you make friends. Yeah, well, and I'll say to the people I knew that were the seasoned persons like, you know, we knew who they were. That's the other part that was difficult was interviewing them like, like I don't know you, you know, we've worked together on projects before. Hi, how are you doing? How did you hear about this job, you know, um, you told me. But, um, I think in every case that I can think of, ended up better off when they didn't get those entry level jobs because something better came back to them that was a better fit. So again, people listening, stay the course, manage, you know, whatever you got to do to manage your budget. And hold out as long as possible for the right thing. Whether, you know, these are difficult times. You have to make difficult decisions. And sometimes that is do I take a pay cut? Sometimes that's, do I move back in with a relative that's some or a friend, you know, like, do I stop eating out as much as I do, whatever it is to help you. Get what you need, what you want, you know, because their jobs are here. And that's the other thing I would stress is that yes, the government. At a high level of shutting things down and there's ripple effect and, you know, that will cause funding to change and shift here and there, but private companies, nonprofits are going to pick up whatever slack is out there. 

Climate still needs to be addressed. Jobs are still growing overall. Regardless, so like, yes, some people are coming back, but also like you said, there's a huge exodus of people who are just retiring instead of refilling those positions. So when the EPA APA or whatever, presumably opens up again, or the hiring freezes stop, that'll be a huge influx of open positions. Right. And like you said, like the thought, I guess the prevailing thought is that the private sector is gonna start doing more. That's usually what happens when There's a, a shift in government, you know, for big government to smaller government, what ends up happening is private companies take over. We don't even have to get into the anything other than Uh, shifts, it's just shifts. And so we're probably going to see that too. There may be an emphasis on different types of projects, but that's really driven by companies more than it's driven by politics. As much as, you know, people, politicians will talk about it, like it's not, but it gets driven by companies. So pay attention to what companies are putting out. There will still be jobs posting, there will still be needs. They may be different than what's here now. That recession in 2007 to 2009 was a perfect example. When I was going in, I was seeing wildlife biologists jobs everywhere. They were everywhere. And I came out as a wildlife biologist. I mean, I, I worked with turtles for two years, damn it. And I came out and I, I saw one job in 3 months, like posted anywhere. And so I'm like, OK, I might have to shift what I'm doing. How do I do that, you know, I was scared. Honestly, I didn't know what the heck I was gonna do. 

I was like maybe I was gonna have to go back to doing what I was doing before, but I'm glad I didn't have to. So it worked out. Exactly. And in hindsight. It works out, you, you get different experience, maybe that you didn't expect or meet someone you didn't expect or whatever happens, usually, you know, it's always looking back that you're like, oh, I now I see why that happened this way. And what those silver linings might be. But in the meantime, just, we all got to know we're all going through this, you know, so that was, I was on a panel earlier today for the SEI Climate Corps in California. Yeah. Talking about. This very thing where really the best thing you can do is start joining things like NAEP and get involved and be around people who May at some point be able to refer you to an opportunity, but in the meantime, just be around people who are going through the same thing you are. Yeah, and I mean like, I was, you know, like I say, I went into college for wildlife biology this past week, I got to see the interim guidance on CEQ's new rules that are going to be proposed for comment, right? That's a very big shift, but that's like top of the industry kind of stuff. 

Not a lot of people get the access to that. Not only a lot of people understand what that even means, but that's kind of where careers end up, right? Sometimes you just happen to be, and you look back, like, how did I get here? I have no idea. It's hard to say exactly why that happened. A lot of it's just relationships built over decades, and that's, that's the funny thing. It's like, it just takes time. It takes more time than what people want to think of, but then you get to a spot where, I mean like, Laura, what you did last week, what you've been doing the past couple of weeks is another great example of like how your network grows into this thing that you'd never think was possible. Yeah, exactly. So I don't know, I don't know where we're going with today's episode, uh, kind of generally talking about the state of jobs and always trying to offer a hint of hope for people who may be feeling like, especially, I don't try to focus much on the news. I don't watch the news at all because, yes, I know I need to be informed and. You probably need to be informed about certain things, but you don't have to get it from the general, whatever the media feeds you. You can get on the right job board or the right news boards, you can, there are apps that allow you to filter the news to you, you can use Google alerts to try to get filtered news and information.

 And I would, you know, caution people to be. Aware of what they're putting into their brain and what they're watching and viewing because you get what you focus on and all you see is closings and shutdowns and you know, that's, that's what you're, you're gonna see scarcity and you're going to respond. With a scarcity mindset, if you believe there are no jobs, you're not going to find jobs. But if you believe they're out there, you're going to find them. You know, it's manifestation, so I would just, my biggest piece of advice to anybody who may be job searching or about to. I just be careful of what they're feeding themselves and what they're feeding their LinkedIn profile. Yeah, people do pay attention to those too. I mean, I will say, if you do, reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm going to look at your profile. That is, that is what I'm gonna do. And some of that stuff really does matter if you're like, I want to do Nipa and your page says that your job is freethinker, it doesn't help me at all. And why wouldn't you have something that's related to what we're talking about somewhere on there, you know. That's back to the resume stuff again, so yeah, we can't, you can't separate it, you know, we want people to network, we want people to build their relationships and communication with people, but at the same time, LinkedIn has become an integral part of the job search. 

Yeah, yeah, it really has, and it's been a really positive experience for me. I'm happy to use it. I mean, I'm not like I'm hounding it every single day, but I do. And listen, I would say if we go back to 3 years ago, 4 years ago, that was not the tune you were singing. I know. I know, but I've had some really good experiences with it. No, I'm glad to hear it. It's grown quite a bit, I think, I guess as you, you know, as my career's changed too, it's been more important for finding people. Yeah, it's not, you know, nothing's perfect, but it's been great. Yeah, no, it's validating for me as a career coach because I'm always telling people you've got to do your LinkedIn, and they're like, do I? I'm like, Yeah, you do. You do. I'm like, at least while you're job searching, if you want to take it down later, but I still think you should keep, I mean, if, imagine you had been people collecting on your LinkedIn since your first part of your career. Yeah. Like Marley, Kacie are not a volunteer. Well, you're volunteers, but our producers, if you start doing this now, you'll have such a gigantic network by the, you know, by the time you're as far in as we are. Like, it's mind blowing to me that now people are moms and daughters and fathers and sons are connected on LinkedIn, like promoting each other and stuff. 

Oh, for sure, and well, yeah, I think, I think we've had a good positive message for folks and uh You know, like I say, Laura and I are fairly accessible people. It's not hard to find us, so if you guys do have questions, thoughts, ideas, you can also reach out to us, you know. On LinkedIn I should sponsor. We should be saying more to, if you're listening and there's a topic you want us to talk about, we get close to a topic you wanted to hear about, like, you know, let us know. I wish you had said more about XYZ. Yeah. Or I liked what you said about whatever. Can you talk about that some more? Or just a new question, something, I don't know if you want to know like what Nick does on Sunday mornings to clear his mind. I don't know whatever it is. We're always looking for new topics to talk about and to know what, you know, you as the listeners want to hear. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's your show, really. We're just mouthpieces. So, and I don't know, I think we can go ahead and wrap this one up. Yeah, sounds good. And that's our show. Thank you so much for listening today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. See you, everybody.