Climate Anxiety, Resilience, and Community Support with Sarah Newman

Welcome back to Environmental Professionals Radio, Connecting the Environmental Professionals Community Through Conversation, with your hosts Laura Thorne and Nic Frederick! 

On today’s episode, we talk with Sarah Newman, Founder and Executive Director of the Climate Mental Health Network about Climate Anxiety, Resilience, and Community Support.   Read her full bio below.

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Showtimes: 
1:30 - Environmental Challenges 
8:15 - Interview with Sarah Newman Starts
12:30 - How do we help
25:19 - Connecting to the Climate movement 
30:16 - Living on a Sailboat!

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This podcast is produced by the National Association of Environmental Professions (NAEP). Check out all the NAEP has to offer at NAEP.org.

Connect with Sarah Newman at https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarnew/

Guest Bio: 
Sarah Newman is the founder and executive director of Climate Mental Health Network, addressing the mental health consequences of climate change. The organization is the largest in this emerging sector, reaching young people, parents and educators with research-informed programs and resources. In 2025 she was named a Grist 50 Fixer. She previously worked in the media impact sector and at nonprofits as an outreach director and community organizer.

Music Credits
Intro: Givin Me Eyes by Grace Mesa
Outro: Never Ending Soul Groove by Mattijs Muller

Transcript

Hello and welcome to EPR with your favorite environmental nerds, Nic and Laura. On today's episode, Nic and I talk about our own eco-anxiety. We interviewed Sarah Newman about climate anxiety, resilience and community support. And finally, here are some not fun dark facts about eco-anxiety. 60% of, I believe this is youth, said they were very extremely worried about environmental. Problems, 50 to 67% reported feelings of sadness, fear, anger, powerless, or guilt about climate change. 45% of those feelings negatively affect daily functions like sleep, concentration, eating, or playing. But 100% of us here at EPR still love you. So, how about that? Oh, thanks, Nic. You know, I'm here for you. Give people some tools to deal with this if you feel like you're one of those people. There we go.

Hit that music!

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Let's get to our segment. So, the interview today was, was really interesting. We talked about climate anxiety and, you know, growing up in an era like Laura, where you grow up and, and also where I grew up, I think we had like, there was an awareness of what was going on in the world and, you know, save the planet. For me, it was, was a Captain Planet was huge when I was a kid. And I loved it, but it, it's interesting because it highlighted all the challenges and problems and then as an adult, you're like, oh man, these challenges and problems are still here, right? Even like we talked about in the interview was the success story is, you know, we stopped whaling, right? That stopped and we've saved the whales, that was a big deal. And you know, you think about like blue whales are still way off where they were prior to whaling. They're nowhere close to where their numbers were. Some animals have recovered; some haven't. Deforestation still occurs and so you start talking about these things and. You can feel yourself get anxious, and I guess there's not really an outlet for that kind of thing, and so it's hard to, it's like how do you manage your own eco-anxiety, you know, I, I think an example for me in my mind is like learning what palm oil is and the challenges of like even if you're not deforesting a place, if you change the forest, and it becomes a, you know, palm plantation instead of a rainforest. It also has the same kind of challenging and environmental issues, and then you're like, OK, I'm not gonna eat anything with palm oil in it, and then you realize that palm oil is in everything, and you love those things, and then what do you do, you know, and it's, it's almost like you can get yourself really spun up, and the interview was really neat about that, but I don't know, I wanted to hear like what your perspective was on growing up, how environmental challenges were presented to you and like what you think about them now. 

Well, like for me growing up a decade before you, almost in the 80s, the big thing was like, put a brick in your tank with water usage, and its acid, yeah, put a brick in your tank and don't run the water when you brush your teeth. It was a lot about water usage. Oh, funny. I just knew not to do that cause my parents told me not to. That's funny. OK. Yeah, so climate at that point was just like acid rain. That was the scary thing that I remember acid rain, yeah, like by now and ozone layer. So those were like the three things was like water wars, don't overuse the water. I already like I have a friend now who takes like 2 showers a day and they're like, you don't take 2 showers a day, and I'm like, oh my God, that's an egregious waste of water. I can't, you know. And um and then like everything has a lot of it is just awareness, but then there was the ozone thing like for so for us, I feel like it was, you know, as much as right now, young people are like, oh my God, the plane is dying and, and we're gonna watch it die. I feel like I was in the same boat, like we're the ozone is failing and we're gonna all fry and then the acid rain is gonna come and tear our skin off. Like it was, it was scary, but there wasn't anywhere to outlet that. There weren't jobs, like the, when I went back to school for biology, I got my first job, my coworkers had been, like, they were also biologists, but they were zoologists. But there wasn't all of the amounts of things. So I think it's really awesome that now if you do see that there's a problem, you can at least maybe put some effort towards it, besides just watching how many times you flush the toilet. Oh man, yeah, I'm still stuck on two showers a day kind of thing. I mean, I, I, I'm debating like sometimes it's like, is it in the morning or the afternoon, but you know, uh. 

Yeah, it's such a strange thing because there are times where you can really get yourself worked up over it, and it's kind of like the mental health aspect of taking care of yourself and not letting something so big overwhelm you. It's, you know, it's what we talked about in the interview today, which was really fun, but like, yeah, it's still, it's kind of funny to think about where we came from. Yeah, I mean, the Planteers, I was all in on that. I was so into it. I was like that was all after me, like I don't, I don't watch that. But also then there was another round of it when you, there's a different level when you're actually working in it, and then there's no one who sees what you see. So, living in Florida, it's Florida, and so people will go on island parties or they would be at the beach partying or they, they're in habitat, amazing diverse habitat and trashing it, and you're the only person screaming on the inside. Right, right. He was like, no. You know and doesn't want to like go around punishing people or cleaning the beach up while they're at the thing or like at a concert in a park, you're like, oh my God. So, I think there's one level for like general public to have fears about climate, and then there's a whole different level when you're actually working in it. Yeah, that's true, that is true. And it's like, uh, like you see too much, yeah, very fair, and, and you can wear it on you, and it's like, yeah, we should have just clean up after ourselves. That's like the basic tenet, right? It's that's all it is, just clean up after yourself. Same thing if you go hiking in the mountains, you know, just clean up after yourself, just do that, yeah but then like you said. The stuff I'm cleaning up is plastic pollution. It's, uh, where was its source, what's in it, la la la, like what food bars did I just bring with me? Food bars. Why are we eating food bars? It does add up, and you if you start looking at all of the things, but for me it's just like, do something. 

Yeah, your best and do something, like, if you all are doing a little bit better, then the whole thing would be a little bit better, but yeah, you definitely can't like, I mean, I did, I got the reason I'm not in an environmental 9 to 5 is because partially because I was burnt out in Florida watching so much development and so many, there's so many lots and what was one lane roads that are now 4. There are farms, acres. In acres that I can close my eyes and visualize as nothing but nature. They're all public in a in a housing development, Public in a housing development over and over, cookie cutter stamp, and that is heart wrenching. Mhm. It really is, and it can really wear you out, but it's also in some ways that's the way life is too, you know, it's like it's not gonna. And development moves forward regardless of how you feel, so you don't have to be perfect, but you can do something, you know, and like one of my favorite Onion articles, by the way, it's just like a, just the headline, right? Just the headline was, how bad can throwing away one plastic bottle be? 20 million people wonder. And it's like such a perfect example of what we're talking about, right? Where it's like, yeah, just, just don't throw, just don't throw away a soda can, put it in the recycling, you know, sometimes even small things like that can just help mitigate some of those, those stresses and those anxieties, but, you know, there's a lot more we talk about in the interview, so let's, uh, why don't we give it a listen. Sounds good. 

Hello and welcome back to EPR. Today we are joined by Sarah Newman, the founder and executive director of Climate Mental Health Network. Hi, Sarah, thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here today and chat with you. Yeah, yeah, and I want to dive right in. Like, you founded Climate Mental Health in 2021. After struggling with climate emotions, and I love the phrase, what does that mean? What were you experiencing and why Climate Mental Health Network? Yeah, so, climate change is affecting us both physically and emotionally. And so there's a lot of, when we think about climate change, you know, we're talking about the science of climate change, the technologies to address the impacts of climate change, the physical manifestations, whether it's air pollution and Asthma or extreme heat, for example, um, but often people aren't talking about, though it is very much happening, are the emotional impacts. How do we feel because of climate change, both from what we are experiencing personally. Whether that are things that are extreme weather events fueled by climate change like wildfires or hurricanes or indirectly reading about what is happening in the news, working in the field, things like that, we are dealing with a range of emotions because of what is happening due to climate change, and I have been struggling with climate emotions for a long time. I initially thought that this was something that I had been dealing with in the past, say, decade or so. Doing this work made me realize actually I have been struggling with this since I was a teenager and I'm Gen X and I really, it's impacted how I live and I've carried this kind of generalized anxiety about environmental degradation, including the impacts of climate change for all of my adult life, and it's impacted life choices and my thinking. And I have overwhelmingly felt very isolated and alone with those feelings and experiences, and I was a little bit When I would try to talk to people about it, it was kind of saw myself as like a social outcast, and I couldn't understand why no one else was feeling this way. And it became more acute in the past few years, particularly during COVID, and I started to look for resources for myself because I had learned about the term eco-anxiety and realized, oh, this is what I have. And I started looking for resources and I found some good things, but I recognized that there was a need for a lot more. And I had studied public health and really was looking at this issue through a public health lens. 

I recognize I'm not alone actually with having these emotions with this eco anxiety and that there's tens of millions of people like myself who are really struggling and how those people need support like I do and how could this issue be addressed through a public health lens, how to use community tools and practices. And it is through doing this work now that I recognize and I've met so many other people, not only like myself, but in particular young people, and Gen Zers are disproportionately experiencing the emotional impacts of climate change. And so when I talk to them and I hear them talk, I think, This is the majority of Gen Zers and it's so relatable to me as a Gen Xer because that is my story and I'm so grateful to work with them because when I was their age, I didn't, there was nothing like this, and this is what we're really working on. So it's a very long answer. No, no, I love it. It's, it's actually kind of funny to think about my own experiences, right? So, I'm the, I'm in the millennial generation and it's kind of like I remember growing up and school was basically like, look, the plant's falling to pieces, everything's being destroyed. There you go and you're like, well, what am I supposed to do with that? They're like, well, you know, you can't do anything. It's kind of, kind of what we're told in one way or another. It's like deforestation ticker, you know, that's just like this is how much forest we're losing every single day and This is when it gets to 0 and all these things and even having outlets for understanding it, we didn't have a great outlet for addressing it and uh you know, so then when you have those conversations and you have those that framework, right, like there isn't a lot to help people, how do you do that? What are the steps you start taking? Yeah, so we actually just released at a webinar that we hosted with a range of partners, a whole new emotional resilience framework. That's pretty extraordinary because it's a process now for people to follow, to build the emotional resilience, to be able to face climate change, and this is not about saying having climate emotions is a bad thing or that you should get rid of them. The climate emotions are telling you something. It's showing that you care that you understand what's going on, and that you're concerned. 

And the challenge and the opportunity is how do you use those emotions in a way that don't lead to a sense of hopelessness or helplessness or despair but instead can transform you so that you develop. A sense of agency and thriving and joy and resilience and it doesn't mean not having that I'm using climate anxiety as a kind of catch-all. It doesn't mean not having the climate anxiety, but it's that that emotion or those emotions are not. Debilitating and instead you are transformed by them. And so, we have a whole framework now that's a multi-step process, but we have all of our tools and resources that we have are about helping people recognize and name their emotions. That's the first step. Just name it to tame it, just understanding having these emotions is a normal thing. And then building and developing those skills for that resilience. And so, we work primarily with youth at the center of our work, and we work primarily with youth parents and caregivers and educators to do programs that are rooted in community. Because we recognize that everyone is going through climate change. One's climate emotions experiences are not unique. It's not the same as if you're in like a car accident and like I can't relate to your experience in the car accident. We're all going through this together and so the wisdom and the solutions and the agency not only comes from individuals, but it comes from the community and there's a deep inner relationship between individuals and community, and it's not about that you need some. Expert to come in and tell you what to do or to guide you in this process. Individuals can do this. Yeah, and it's almost like it's funny you say that off the top of my head. I know I have a friend of mine who lost their house to a hurricane, and I have a friend of mine who lost their house to a wildfire within the last couple of years. And so like, like you say, like there's a lot more relatable things, but even beyond that, even in small ways, coastal communities in general are dealing with this a lot. 

So I'm, I'm, I'm really curious, like what are the um when you are meeting with people and they're talking about the emotions, like what are those emotions that come up and you say you mentioned anxiety and like maybe a hopelessness in a way, but is that the driver that we're kind of, you're having a call to action, for example, using that anxiety to put it into good use, like, is that kind of how this is working? Yeah, so we have something called the climate emotions wheel. Which is a tool that we created, which is, there's commonly used, people might see something called just an emotions wheel, and it's lots of different colors and has lots of different feelings on it. And we worked with someone named Panu Pakala, who's a scientific advisor to our organization, and he had written a paper called The Taxonomy of Climate Emotions. What are the most common emotions that people are experiencing because of climate change, and we use that to create what's called the climate emotions wheel. Which is now available in 30 languages, and it's a really, really great tool as a starting point for these conversations for people to say, this is where I'm at on the wheel. So there's 4 quadrants, so there's the anger quadrant, positive, fear and sadness, and then within those there's many more, and it's a way you can be in all 4 quadrants. You can be in one quadrant or 2, whatever it might be, and it can change every day, but it's a way for people to start saying, hey, this is where I'm at right now and recognizing. You know, maybe I'm in the outrage, but also hope or powerless and grief. So that's a really, really good starting point. And then it's very much about recognizing you have these emotions, understanding, and going through lots of different practices and techniques that help you to first process these feelings and recognizing, you know, having these feelings is, again, completely normal and valid. And so, using our model, it's called the first step is let be notice and name your feelings. The second is let flow, and it's processing these feelings. And so that can be things like journaling or talking with people or doing like art therapy or spending time in nature, mindfulness activities. And then the third step is letting in the positive feelings, creating that space in your life. For the joy, for the thriving, for taking action, for doing those climate actions and so forth, and it's recognizing you're, it's not a one and done, you're gonna be doing this over and over. I love it. I think sometimes we love talking about things in black and white, right? It's just like it helps our brains. It's like it's either this or that and one of my favorite examples of that from like a mental health standpoint is like the five stages of. Grief, right? We talk about this and you, you start at 1 and you end up at 5, and that is not at all how grief works. It's not at all how any of that happens. You go 1231351354, and, and then, and then it slows down and then sometimes it'll come right back up again and you'll start over at 1 and you're back in denial and you're like, what, this can't be what's happening and it's such a really great point you're making and I want people to understand emotions change day to day, um. And so that's got to be really challenging to address because like some days you are angry about what's going on and some days, you're sad. Yeah, and we do have speaking of grief, we actually again with Panu Bakala and his research, we actually have specific tools for climate grief. So, he's done this brilliant research of different types of climate grief. 

And then we also created a model of these steps of climate grief and to your point, like seeing that it's not kind of standalone, and it's that you're carrying each of these, you know, the loss still, but that you do have the ability to transform despite having the loss and still obviously carry the pain of that loss. And so, I mean, I think also kind of the sort of step back to your point about this, how we see things in very black and white ways. Climate change is so overwhelming. It's so complicated. It's so hard to believe that it's happening in a sense, and not, not, not hard to believe from a science perspective. We know it's happening, but from a cognitive perspective, it's very hard to take this in. It overwhelms our nervous systems. And so this leads people to that. Denial at times but also overwhelm and despair because it's very hard for your brain to rationalize this and comprehend it. And this is why we need to move beyond just having a cognitive understanding of what's going on or just trying to talk through it and then understanding that there's other ways to process it, whether it is like creative arts, understanding how it's manifesting your body, doing breathing practices, all these types of things. To be able to really be able to not only process it, but to not be weighed down by something that is essentially stuck in your head as how it manifests. Yeah, and it's such like I love the term resilience, right, because we always use it as a positive thing, but if you are resilient, that means you've had a lot of positive things happen to you, right?

And emotional resilience is hard, and it takes a long time. So like people who are even starting out that they're basically starting at, I don't want to say zero, but you know, starting this process, what advice do you have for people to kind of not give up on being emotionally resilient? Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, I think my colleague Larissa Dooley, who she created this whole resilience framework, wrote this incredible new guide that we have, and she's really led this work that we've been doing and One of the things that she writes about in the guide is that humans are stronger than they think, and we have the capacity to be resilient, and humans have gone through the worst calamities and not only do humans survive it, but they come out and they're still able to thrive, and we really have to recognize that we each. Carry the capacity for that, and it is extraordinarily hard work, as you said. It's hard, it's scary, it's difficult. I have been fortunate in my life, like I have not lost a home or people because of climate change, anything like that. So, I'm not saying that this is easy work, but we do have the capacity to do this, and it's something that we each need to do because there are no other options. 

I think that one of the things that I carried, I carried too much of a sense of burden and responsibility for these environmental issues, and it goes back to what you were saying, like when you were in school and learning and it's like, OK, well, the rainforests are all going to be chopped down and like class dismissed, and like, what do I do with this? And I think that there is too much of the savior complex. In, I mean, across American culture, but that includes in the environmental field, whether it's putting individuals on pedestals like this person is a hero of this movement, or it's up to me to solve this, and, you know, or you look at sometimes how organizations are communicating things that are very kind of guilt focused to people, like if you don't sign this petition or if you don't give us $10 or If you don't, you know, stop doing X, Y, Z, and I think that we need to have a lot more softness. One, we need to recognize like, it's not up to any single person, no one is going to do this. No one person can save us, and it's also, you don't need to give up all of your whole life just for trying to solve this. We all have to play a role and do our part to a degree. And the other is that we need to really remove this judgment of people. Like, everyone is, there's no perfect person. It's called being human. And when we set these unrealistic standards for people and judgments, it really does not serve anyone in any way. Right, right, and that is a harsh reality sometimes, you know, like the world can be difficult, it can be tough. That's one of the reasons you need to be resilient, right, because you are going to get Challenges, even if they're coming from a good enough place, it's still hard. So I appreciate that. Also, another thing is that we know obviously that there's bad things happening because of climate change, but we also need to share about and engage in hope. And so, yes, you look at what's happening at the EPA in terms of dismantling regulations, rolling back decades, 50 years' worth of environmental protections and so forth, and it is kind of hard. Like how do I see positive things in this moment, but there are, there are people on the ground, there's people at local levels and state levels, there's still good things happening and so. You have to also kind of buffer, not, I don't want to say buffer, but you have to give people a sense of hope. And so I think that that also is an important part of how we talk about climate change and how it's presented, like, yes, here's the problem and here's what we need to be doing and also look at what these people are doing to address it. 

Yeah, which is a great point. I mean, I think there's lots of ways to handle things. I think seeing some of the unique rebuild for coastal challenges, even in places you wouldn't expect it, right? Like I know Tyndall Air Force Base is a great example, destroyed by a hurricane. And their replacement was to build natural seagrass beds instead of a seawall, right? That is a unique approach you wouldn't expect to see from an entity that you may not think notices or cares, you know, that's the perception that we have, and the reality is very different, so I, I love that message, and it's really cool to see how that ties together. So, I guess we're working through this, right? There's never an end goal, right? There's never. You never get to a point where you're like, ah, my emotions are now completely set, we're good, we're there'll never be an issue going forward, but going through this program, going through this process, and then getting to a point where, how do you see this connecting to the broader like climate movement and addressing some of these challenges? What are the benefits that you see in the future? I think it builds community, it gives people agency, it prevents burnout, it gives people hope. And it's ultimately what we need. We can, the climate movement will, we can't fully address climate change, quote unquote, successfully without addressing the emotional impacts of it. People have to be resilient. They have to have a sense of agency, and they have to be connected in community. And to me that all starts starting with how do you feel? And so, I mean at a kind of more granular level, I mean, I think that our work, you know, we work with educators and so kids are learning about climate change in school. Now if when an educator uses our toolkit, we know that the kids They are not just leaving a classroom with a sense of despair, but they are able to process their emotions. They have a sense of agency. They have ways of self-care, you know, things like that. I think that this also will help our work helps people who are working in. as climate, you know, as professionals and whether that's working for advocacy organizations or educators or so forth to prevent burnout, our work is helping parents and caregivers have important and meaningful conversations with their kids. 

Helping families develop plans for how do they support each other, how do they take action, all of these types of things. So ultimately, it's about community, it's about emotional resilience, it's about agency to take action for the long term. Yeah, which is a great point, and I love it because like I say, they're all connected, right? They're all not like you get to wake up one day and be like, OK, all, all emotions gone. Um, as much as we might think that that's a great thing, there's so much value. I'll talk forever on that, but like we're at the point of our show where we love to ask our guests about what they do for a living, how it impacts them on a day-to-day basis. It's a segment we call Field Notes, and it's just, we love hearing funny, scary, awkward stories, and we love hearing them from our guests, from people who listen. So please do not be shy about sending us in stories at info@environmentalprofessionalsradio.com. Now, Sarah, you mentioned that even trying to fund this kind of work is a story in and of itself. Is there a moment when you were setting this up that really sticks with you in the building of the Climate Mental Health Network? Well, I think that there's always the challenge or the question. Of with this very fast evolving funding landscape where we're, you know, where will our funding continue to come from. So I think that is something that is something that I think about often, as probably most people who work in the nonprofit space using your emotional resilience as well to kind of sort through it. So I mean we'll talk about that. Honestly, like I don't think many people know what that's like and how challenging that can be. Where does funding come from? What do you have to do to kind of work through that? Yeah, I mean, I feel like this could turn into a therapy session. Right, right. I've been extraordinarily fortunate that we have had some incredible foundations and companies and individuals who have recognized and valued our work and have continued to invest in our work and so been so grateful and It's been really extraordinary to see from, you know, about 5 years ago to where we are now, um, and so we get funding from foundations. We had previously gotten funding from through government programs. We also get government funding rather from some corporations and corporate foundations as well as individuals who Just believe in our work and are part of our community, so it's been a real mix. There's always, you know, it's challenging, but there's also opportunities because I see this work as strengthening what others are investing in that might not be specifically mental health, but if someone say is investing in environmental education or they're investing in family well-being, and so I see our work as an opportunity to strengthen. 

What they are already prioritizing by bringing in this element of addressing the emotional toll of climate change. Yeah, and it's like I say, I, I love that answer cause it's the answer is a lot of different places and a lot of different ways, and, you know, and I like also that it still keeps you up a little bit because that's part of this life sometimes is there are gonna be challenges and it's not gonna be. Straightforward and simple. So no, I very much appreciate that. And before we wrap up, I have got to ask you about living on a sailboat because. That is such a really unique and cool thing. Uh, you, you mentioned before we started that you were like, I'm going to sail from Annapolis to the Bahamas. What prompted that? How hard was that? And are you happy you made it? Yeah, well, happy you made it. This is my husband's lifelong dream to live on a sailboat. So, when he met, he said, I'm going to eventually live on a sailboat, and I said, OK, I get seasick, and he said, don't worry, I'll figure it out. So here we are. So, still get seasick, but much better now, but I love living on a sailboat. I mean, you talk about climate change, like this is, this is ground zero, like we are in, we go to communities where it's, you know, this is sea level rise. This is we live at sea level. These are the impacts that we're dealing with it. So, from like my work perspective, it's actually just been, it's so visceral and real and raw and not theoretical. Um, yeah, it's there, you know, and living on a sailboat, like you are so deeply integrated with nature and the elements and understanding like, what does the weather mean? like. And where is the wind coming from? What is, you know, the current, all of these types of things affect our daily life. We have solar panels, so it's like, how much sun is there, you know, all of these things that make you just even more at a like a very refined way, so deeply connected with nature. So, it can be very hard work. It's not all, I don't know, there's like the reality show below deck, which I've never seen, but I hear about, which is like people living on mega yachts. That is definitely not us island either, so it's like, you know, something in between, but it's challenging, but it's also exhilarating and amazing. 

Yeah, I can only imagine. I mean, did you have like difficult weather on the way down? Did you get lucky in that sense, or were there times where you're like, I can't believe we're doing this? Yeah, there's that, and there's like challenge, like, you know, in intense storm, like, you know, high winds, and then there's other times where there's no wind, and you're like, oh, OK, now there's no wind. But I mean, we spent a while working our way down the coast and then You know, here in the Bahamas, like, there's some days where it's like very high winds. Last week in the area where we're at, it was a big deal because we're getting like 40 knot winds, and so everyone was like moving around to find, you know, they put their sailboats in like very safe kind of areas. That are more protected, you know, so things like that you think about every single day. Yeah, and that's actually, uh, like you said, that's kind of a really great thing. You're confronted with climate quite often and, you know, honestly, the, the DC area has also been dealing with climate. Like I say, I'm still just barely able to get out of my neighborhood because of the snow, so yeah, um. Yeah, so like I say, I, I know we're at time here, but I wanted to see if there's anything else that you wanted to mention before we let you go. I just so appreciate all of your thoughtful questions and just having this conversation and makes me think more about our work, and so I, I really, really appreciate this discussion today. Yeah, it's absolutely great, and, you know, like I say, we always love to hear or give our guests an opportunity to have people reach out to them and What better guest to reach out to than you to help people with a really big, big challenge. 

So if people do want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that? So please visit our website, which is climatementalhealth.net, that's all one word, and on the website, you'll see lots of resources and programs, and then also there's links to our Instagram page and our LinkedIn page and our YouTube channel, and our newsletter as well. So please connect with us. Very cool. Thank you so much, Sarah, for being here. It was great. Thank you. Really grateful. That's our show. Thank you, Sarah, for joining us today. Please be sure to check us out each and every Friday. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review. Bye. See you, everybody!