Episode 11 - John B. King, Jr., SUNY Chancellor

In the 11th episode of the Middle States Commission on Higher Education (MSCHE) Pillars of Change Podcast, Commissioner Havidán Rodríguez, President of SUNY at Albany, hosted John B. King, Jr., Chancellor of The State University of New York (SUNY) and former U.S. Secretary of Education within President Barack Obama's cabinet.

The two discussed the role of higher education in promoting Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) in today’s political climate, how leaders can communicate the value of increasing campus diversity, and SUNY’s greatest DEI challenges and opportunities.

SUNY is the largest comprehensive system of public higher education in the United States, serving nearly 1.4 million students across 64 campuses.

Transcript

00:00:16 Havidán Rodríguez 

Welcome to pillars of Change Podcast presented by the Middle States Commission on Higher Education. My name is Havidán Rodríguez, and I am President of the University at Albany, State University of New York, and I'm also proud to serve as the Middle States Commissioner. 

Thank you for joining me for the Commission's continuing series of podcasts focusing on diversity, equity and inclusion. This series spotlights highly effective institutional practices that have made a difference in the lives of students today. With us, we are talking to John B. King, Jr., Chancellor of the State University of New York, also known as SUNY. SUNY is the largest comprehensive system of public higher education in the country, serving nearly 1.4 million students across 64 institutions, including the university at Albany. Before being named SUNY Chancellor, John King served as the US Secretary of Education under President Obama and President of Education Trust since joining SUNY in January 2023, Chancellor King has advocated to advance equity and justice to ensure excellence at every SUNY campus. Chancellor King and SUNY’s Board of Trustees established DEI as one of SUNY’s 4 strategic pillars. He appointed 15 diversity equity, inclusion and social justice faculty fellows to help faculty incorporate DEI content into existing courses. As part of SUNY's new general education requirements. SUNY also launched a Black leadership institute and this year an Asian American Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander Leadership Institute. Both were modeled after SUNY’s nationally recognized Hispanic Leadership Institute and aimed to invest in faculty and professional staff diversity. SUNY has also strengthened recruitment pipelines for students from all backgrounds, including those typically underrepresented in college. Dedicated new funding for student mental health and disability services address food and security provided access to paid internships and expanded research opportunities. Chancellor, you have certainly been very busy, and I am very pleased to welcome Chancellor King to the podcast. 

00:02:56 John B. King, Jr. 

Thanks so much, President Rodríguez. Excited to join you. 

00:02:59 Havidán Rodríguez 

Well, thank you so very much for being with us today. So Chancellor, in recent years we have experienced what I refer to as a frontal attack on DEI in higher education. Politicians and pundits have set their sights on DEI programs, and according to the Chronicle of Higher Education's tracker of legislation related to DEI, 85 bills that would outlaw or severely restrict DEI programs have been introduced in 28 states since last year. Fourteen have become law. But in New York and at SUNY, we are leaning into this important work. So chancellor, what role does higher education play in promoting diversity, equity and inclusion on campus and in our communities, and why is this work so important? 

00:03:59 John B. King, Jr. 

Thanks for framing the question that way, President Rodríguez. Look, I think advancing diversity, equity and inclusion is central to the mission of higher education. It's our job to make sure we prepare students to be good citizens to ensure the long-term health of our democracy. It is also our job to make sure that students are ready to succeed in the workplace, and we know that in the US, that workplace is increasingly diverse. So DI is core to what we do. I also believe it's part of what makes us better. Classroom discussions are richer when there are diverse voices, the quality of research that we do, the level of nuance and the questions we ask, that is strengthened by diversity on our campuses. Diverse teams have been demonstrated to be more effective at problem solving. So we want diverse teams of our faculty and our leadership. And so for us, as you know at SUNY, this has been central. You know, I think about your leadership at University of Albany in the way that you have communicated clearly that diversity, equity, and inclusion isn't an add-on. It's core to every aspect of what we do. And look, as you said, we're trying to lean in. When other states are going backwards, we're saying no, no, in New York, we believe in diversity, equity, and inclusion. That's why we adopted the general education requirement for all senior undergraduates to take course content that exposes them to themes of diversity, equity, and inclusion. We want the aspiring nurse to have coursework that helps them think about our horrific racial disparities in maternal health in the United States. We want the future welder to be prepared to work on a diverse team. We want the student who's preparing for a career in artificial intelligence to have thought about the risk of bias in algorithms and how one can ensure that artificial intelligence is an equity advancing tool rather than a disparity exacerbating tool. And so, you know, we see this as central to who we are and what we do here at SUNY. 

00:06:20 Havidán Rodríguez 

So thinking in that regard, right and as you see the changing climate across the country, presidents and chancellors, across universities and colleges have different constituent groups, right? And so some who are strongly in support of DEI and others who are not. So how should education leaders respond to politicians and others when they question the value of increasing campus diversity? 

00:06:51 John B. King, Jr. 

You know, look, I think we have to do some educational work with all the constituencies to say here's why it matters so much. You know, helping folks understand that for the business community, they are going to have a diverse workforce and they're going to need that workforce to be able to work together effectively. They're going to want to communicate about their products with diverse constituencies, and I think the business community can be a very valuable partner in making the case for diversity, equity, and inclusion, we need to do work with our faculty to make sure that they recognize diversity, equity, inclusion as a talent strategy. This isn't about charity. This is about saying when we go out and get a diverse student population, the caliber of conversation in our classrooms is going to be enhanced. The level of learning for our students is going to be enhanced. The caliber of our faculty is going to be enhanced because we don't want to miss out on those amazing, diverse postdocs from across the country. We want them to see a pipeline into roles on our faculty. And we also have to do some myth busting, I think. Helping people see that diversity, equity, and inclusion is not, contrary to what you might hear on the media sometimes, it's not about dividing folks. It's actually about making sure that we have a shared understanding of democratic principles that are going to help us build strong, diverse communities. We have to myth bust that it's not about making students believe a set of philosophies. It's really about ensuring that students have an accurate understanding of our history that our history as a country is complicated, that slavery happened, the appropriation of the lands of indigenous people -- that happened, and that's a part of our history, a hard part to discuss, but one that we have to discuss. We have to grapple with those things, and I think if we can do that mix of of educating and myth busting, I think we can improve the discourse around DEI. 

00:09:19 Havidán Rodríguez 

You know, as I look at our institutions of higher education across the country, in this particular topic in DEI, and I look at what's happening at in the state of New York, certainly, and in SUNY, right, and U-Albany is part of SUNY, I really do think that SUNY is becoming a national model in terms of this work for DEI. What do you attribute that success to, Chancellor? 

00:09:45 John B. King, Jr. 

You know, look, I think it matters that diversity has been so core to New York's identity throughout its history. The role of immigrants in building New York as a state means that it's really fundamental to how we think of ourselves as New Yorkers, that we embrace diversity. I think we've had extraordinary leadership on campuses. You know, I think about University of Albany winning the Excelencia Seal as an example of folks nationally recognizing what a great place for Latino student success University of Albany is. I think about a president like Tim Sams at SUNY Old Westbury, who you know, came to us from a career that included Morehouse and Prairie View and really brought to Old Westbury such a deep passion for social justice and such a strong vision for what a healthy, diverse community should look like. I think about, you know, the very impressive High Pell percentage at Stony Brook University, as you know, a leading research university that is a real engine of social mobility, helping low income students get the skills and knowledge and experiences they need to move into, not just the middle class, but to have very successful professional lives. So, you know, that leadership from our campus, not only our presidents but our faculty, our student support staff, and then I would say I, you know, I have to credit Governor Hochul and the legislature for their commitment to SUNY, you know? While lots of states are reducing funding for public higher ed, in the last two budget cycles, we've gotten the largest increase in state support in five decades. While lots of states have legislatures that are undermining public confidence in public higher education, Governor Hogel has made it clear that she sees SUNY as central to the state’s future economic development, whether we're talking about healthcare, semiconductor industry, green jobs, or our leadership in artificial intelligence. So we've got the right conditions for success in terms of commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion. 

00:12:28 Havidán Rodríguez 

And no doubt about it, right. I think I'd like to say that, you know, there's a difference between theory and practice. And, you know, in theory, there's a lot of people who are committed to diversity, equity, and inclusion. But when you look at the actual practices, you say, how is this translating into action? And for example, at SUNY, under your leadership, you recently established two new leadership institutes: the Black Leadership Institute and the Asian American Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander Leadership Institute. And these institutes and the Hispanic Leadership Institute that these programs are modeled on are designed to support retention and advancement of high-potential SUNY faculty and professional staff, so can you describe to the audience what are the benefits of these leadership institutes and the types of models that you're developing? 

00:13:21 John B. King, Jr. 

You know, look, when folks are trying to conduct searches for senior level roles on campuses, whether it's for president or cabinet members, we want to make sure that they have a diverse pipeline of talent to draw from. And, you know, when one of our trustees, Marcos Crespo, was in the legislature, he and others championed the creation of the Hispanic Leadership Institute because they saw that Latino leaders were significantly underrepresented in the senior leadership, not just at SUNY, but across the higher education sector. And they understood that to change that, we need to have ways to invest in people's development to identify that strong faculty member, that strong staff leader who has the potential to be a future president, a future cabinet member, and invest in them, give them the opportunity to be part of a cohort, to receive mentorship from effective current leaders, to take on a project in their campus community where they could work on their own leadership skills and have a real impact, something that they could then talk about in interviews as something they had achieved on campus. And we've seen the Hispanic Leadership Institute become, over the last several years, a real pipeline to future opportunities for the participants. And that led us to begin talking about creating a Black Leadership institute. And we were fortunate that we had allies in the legislature, Senator Webb, Assemblywoman Jean-Pierre, who got excited about that possibility, helped work with us to secure the funding we needed. We launched that Black Leadership Institute this year. We're already seeing those leaders have a big impact, and they have such a strong community with each other that they're supporting each other's success. And then this past legislative session, we were able to persuade folks to invest in the API Leadership Institute, which will launch in the coming year, and ultimately what we wanna see across SUNY campuses, is the opportunity for students to see themselves represented in the campus leadership. To, you know, when students see you on the campus of University at Albany, they see what's possible for them and it helps us foster a sense of belonging on our campuses. And we're really proud of these leadership institutes. We saw the long way to go to make sure that our leadership, our faculty, reflect the diversity of our student body, but we're well positioned to make progress, in part because of these leadership institutes. 

00:16:09 Havidán Rodríguez 

And I think you're absolutely right. I do think that these leadership institutes are national models, and I don't know of any other type of leadership institute led by a system that are also funded by the state, right. So I think New York is making and SUNY is making great progress and great contributions in these areas. Chancellor, as you know, there's been, you know, talks and conversations about affirmative action since affirmative action was established. But I don't think anybody could have thought that so quickly as a few years ago, the Supreme Court would actually act to ban affirmative action in college admissions. So, how have these impacted SUNY strategies and initiatives around DEI and particularly college admissions? 

00:17:01 John B. King, Jr. 

Let me first say that the SFFA decision was a huge step backwards for the country and I, you know, it was tragic to see the Supreme Court going backwards in the way that they did and maybe the biggest tragedy was the potential that Black and Latino students may have taken away a message that they're not welcome in higher education from the highest court in the land, and that's just shameful. That said, at SUNY, our view is we're not going backwards. We're going to make sure that we continue to advance our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion. So very quickly after the decision, our board adopted a resolution saying in admissions, we will look at low-income status, first-gen status, the adversity students have overcome in their community or in their schools using the College Board landscape tool. We'll look at veterans, AmeriCorps alumni, all to make sure that we are leveraging legal tools to make sure we have a diverse student body that brings a diversity of experiences. The Supreme Court decision also said that campuses could look at how students talked about the role of race in their own lives in their essay as a part of evaluating students’ individual capacities and talent, and we're doing that. Now for us at SUNY, there's a place at SUNY for every New Yorker. We have our community colleges that are open enrollment institutions. We have many of our comprehensive colleges that admit a very large percentage of the students who apply for us. The implications of this decision were mostly about our four university centers and mostly about graduate programs. And so you know, I think we just want to make clear in our messaging around admissions that we are going to use every available tool to continue to advance our commitment to be an inclusive set of institutions that represent the full population of the state. Now, we also, in responding to the decision, looked at our programs on various dimensions to say how do we make sure these programs are consistent with the law and advancing our values? And so we've got our prodigy plus program, which is designed to help ensure diverse faculty. And so we are looking for postdocs who have a personal commitment to advancing diversity, equity, and inclusion. If they become postdocs with us, they are guaranteed that if they do well in those two years, they will have a tenure track position of the faculty of one of our campuses, so that's to help us build that pipeline of diverse future faculty members. We've talked about leadership institutes. We've got the educational opportunity program, EOP, in New York. It's an income-based program, not race based, but has been a tremendous pipeline of diverse talent for the state. Students who are very low income, who are also falling slightly below the academic standards of the institution to which they have applied, they're admitted with wrap-around supports, including the Summer Institute and ongoing mentoring, and as you know, EOP has been incredibly successful U-Albany the EOP Program has produced countless legislators, business leaders, upwards of 80,000 very successful folks who got an opportunity because of EOP and over 70% of EOP students are black or Latino. So again, it's income based, but it's helping to build that pipeline of diverse talent for the state. 

00:21:02 Havidán Rodríguez 

No, you're absolutely right. And you know you've provided some really compelling answers in terms of the critical importance of DEI, but let me get you to emphasize this a little bit more, particularly when you think about the role of the university president and Chancellor, I don't need to talk to you about this. You you need 64 college campuses across the great state of New York, but you know in in recent weeks, even the Chronicle of Higher education has been putting out articles about the challenging roles of a university president or a chancellor, right? And when you just think just in the past four years, for example, we've gone from a global pandemic, a major crisis in the Middle East to the challenges of what are the values or the value of higher education across the country, frontal attacks on DEI, which we have discussed, major demographic changes, major financial difficulties we're seeing even in the state of New York. Universities right, closing or consolidating. And we also see the major enrollment challenges, right, that the institutions are confronting. So with so much on their plate, with all these critical issues on our plates, your plate, my plate, the plate of presidents and chancellors across the country, why prioritize diversity? 

00:22:28 John B. King, Jr. 

Yeah. Well, look, I'll make a a moral argument and a practical argument. I'll say that from the standpoint of the moral argument, if we believe in the fundamental values of higher education, if we believe in the power of learning, if we believe in education as a tool to advance the health of our democracy, we have to prioritize diversity because we are a diverse country and the success of the country, the success of the Higher education enterprises, is deeply interconnected with that phrase, E Pluribus Unum, right? Out of many, one. We have to be a country that finds a way to build healthy, diverse communities. So that's a moral argument. I'll say a very practical argument. By serving a more diverse student population, we can ensure the health of the sector. You know, people have this thing they say, oh, we're going to have this demographic cliff, and we should all be worried. I have to say, I reject the notion of the demographic cliff because if we served a broader diversity of students, there are plenty of students to go around. Yes, maybe there are fewer 18-year-olds in particular parts of the state of the country. But there's a lot more folks who need college than that. If we could raise the percentage of Black, Latino, and Indigenous students who go on to college, that's a lot of students we could add. If we could ensure that we're retaining more of our low-income students, more of our students of color, that's a lot more students to serve. If we could serve a larger share of veterans, that's a lot of students that are out there. We have upwards of 36-37 million Americans who have some college credits and no degree. Now, they're not necessarily 18. They’re older. They need that degree, and they benefit from that degree, so we need to orient ourselves to bringing those back to our campuses. Plenty of students. And then there are all the folks who never started college, never had the college experience, but maybe college could be the thing that helps them move up at work. College could be the thing that unlocks economic opportunity for their family. College could be the way they get to pursue something they're deeply passionate about that they haven't been able to focus on yet in their lives, so that's a huge population of students, so there are plenty of students to go get if we think more broadly. And so that means we've got to recruit a diverse student population, socioeconomically diverse, racially diverse, generationally diverse, professionally diverse. But then we've also got to create supports on campus so that all of those students can thrive. So maybe that means we need to have childcare on campus to better serve student parents. Or maybe that means we need to have better wrap-around supports to address food and housing and security for folks who may be struggling to balance work and school and limited financial means. Maybe that means we need a different schedule so that working adults can fit class better into their lives. But we can do those things. So it's not just that the diversity at the door, it's making sure that we respond to that diversity with robust set of campus supports that cultivates belonging and student success. 

00:25:56 Havidán Rodríguez 

Right. And you know, as you said right, this whole issue about enrollment and the challenges of enrollment and the demographic cliff, that's a great conversation that would that would be a great new conversation for another podcast, right? Because there's so much to go into into those details. But you know, Chancellor, I was talking about the challenges that president and chancellors confront across the country. But, you know, I lead one university, you lead 64 college campuses across the state and SUNY, as we said before, is the largest comprehensive university system in the country. SUNY includes small rural community colleges, large urban Research One universities and everything that you can think of in between. So what have been your greatest challenges, and maybe some of your greatest opportunities in advancing diversity across such a varied and diverse system? 

00:26:53 John B. King, Jr. 

Yeah. Yeah, well, there's no shortage of challenges. You know, I think, you know, one of the challenges is that many of our institutions are in communities that are not as diverse. And so we've got to both help the community understand what we're trying to accomplish at SUNY, and we've also got to make sure that students and families have the opportunity to spend time on campus, see the diversity on campus, know that they're going to have support and feel a sense of belonging. So that's that's a challenge, you know. We try to increase, for example, over the last two years the number of bus trips we make available so that students, you know, who might be from New York City, have an opportunity to come up to the North Country or Western New York, visit a campus and see what it's like, feel what it's like to be on campus, so maybe they consider a place that's a little further away from home, but they know that they're going to be cared for and they're going to have an opportunity to thrive. Certainly, resources are a challenge, and you know, we're very grateful to the governor and the legislature for the increase in state support. But we know for many of our students, financial struggles can get in the way of them choosing college or being able to stay in college. Really glad that the governor and legislature this year increased the state tuition assistance program, raising the income threshold for the first time in nearly 25 years so that more New Yorkers can get support through our TAP program and also doubling the minimum award so that more students are getting additional aid. It's going to mean more than 40,000 SUNY students will get more aid in this coming year than they got this year because of those changes from the governor and legislature. Hugely important. I worry a lot about the FAFSA this year. You know, the FAFSA rollout has been difficult. The US Education Department launching a new FASA in the long run, the goal is for it to be shorter and more efficient for students. I think that we'll get there, but the release was delayed. There was some technical glitches. There's still some technical challenges, particularly for students who have a parent without a Social Security number. As a result, FAFSA completion around the country is down significantly compared to the same time last year. And in New York, still down about 14% compared to last year. So we have a long way to go. We've got a FAFSA core, current SUNY students who are helping prospective students and families complete the FASA. We're doing FAFSA information sessions. I know President Rodríguez, your financial aid team is working around the clock to make sure students get help completing their FAFSA, get their awards, and sort through their options. But that was not on our radar screen until it went awry this year from the US Education Department, and we've had to adjust, to pivot, to try to make sure we're supporting students to be successful because so many of our students go tuition free because of federal and state aid, more than 52% across the SUNY system. But they can't get that aid if we don't have the FASA. That's really the gateway to the support they need. 

00:30:25 Havidán Rodríguez 

And you're absolutely right. And you know, for someone like the University at Albany, in which, you know, we serve primarily first-generation low-income students and students of color, you know, these are the ones that have been disproportionately impacted by these issues with FAFSA. So, Chancellor, let me ask you one final question before we bring this podcast to conclusion. SUNY’s strategic plan is made up of four pillars: student success, research and scholarship, economic development and upward mobility, and diversity, equity, and inclusion. How do your goals around DEI relate to the other three goals? How are they interrelated? 

00:31:13 John B. King, Jr. 

Yeah. Look, you know, when you think about student success, the successful SUNY graduate is a graduate who is prepared to operate in a diverse workplace and in diverse communities. And so DEI work is central to ensuring our students are successful when they leave us. It is also critical to make sure that our students, our black students, our Latino students, our indigenous students, our API students, our Jewish and Muslim students, that all of our students, whatever their background, feel a sense of belonging on campus, and so that DEI work is crucial to have students feel seen and cared about so that they can be successful. You know, when you think about research and scholarship this is a real place of leadership for SUNY. I think about all the work you're doing at University at Albany to make sure we lead the country in artificial intelligence. And part of what we're trying to do there is ensure that artificial intelligence is designed in a way that we aren't reinforcing bias and that we're solving problems that undermine equity in our society. You know, I was with some of your students yesterday who are participating in a summer research internship in artificial intelligence, and you know, you have students who are researching how can AI help us find better diagnosis for Lyme disease more quickly? How can AI be used to detect salmonella, to improve the health of the food people eat? How can AI be used to make government services more accessible to folks, right? These are all opportunities for AI to be used for the public good, informed by our goals of diversity, equity, and inclusion. I think about the work we're doing on health disparities. You're doing that in part at U-Albany in partnership with SUNY Downstate, which serves a very diverse population in central Brooklyn. I think about the research work we're doing on environmental justice issues at our Environmental Science and Forestry college in Syracuse. Lots of ways in which DEI is deeply embedded in our research aspirations, and then of course, when it comes to economic development and upward mobility, whether it's the semiconductor industry or the battery technology industry or healthcare, or advanced manufacturing. None of those sectors will be successful as successful, as they could be, without a diverse workforce and a diverse pipeline of leaders. And so you know, Micron as they come to central New York, they are very interested in working closely with Onondaga Community College to make sure that low-income students of color in Syracuse have a pathway to the great jobs that Micron is going to bring. I think about the work that you have done with Hudson Valley Community College to ensure a pipeline for global foundries in the semiconductor industry and a pipeline that is diverse. I think about the work that Binghamton University is doing around battery technology and the role that could play in the future of a net zero economy. They're very attentive to making sure can we produce a diverse pipeline of engineers who will be well trained for that battery technology sector? So, you know, I think you can't really have successful effort to advance economic development upward mobility if you aren't thinking about issues of progressive equity inclusion. 

00:35:25 Havidán Rodríguez 

Absolutely. And Chancellor, to bring this podcast, to conclusion, as you know, there will be many presidents and chancellors and senior administrators, faculty and staff, hopefully parents and students listening to this podcast. So as a national leader in higher education, do you have any final words of inspiration to all these folks in terms of, you know, how do we continue to deal and make progress and make continue to make contributions to our society to higher education? 

00:36:00 John B. King, Jr. 

Yeah, I would. I would just urge folks to stay hopeful and resolute. You know, I talked in my recent state of the university address about my Uncle Hal, who played a huge role in my life as a mentor to me as a kid, particularly after my parents passed. My uncle Hal was a Tuskegee Airman, one of the first black pilots in the US military, and you know, he faced tremendous discrimination. He served during a period of intense segregation, not just in Alabama but really throughout the country. When he got back from World War Two, he couldn't get a job as an accountant, even though he was trained as an accountant because of discrimination based on race. So he became a firefighter, risked his life for fellow citizens, even in a society that didn't fully recognize him. And then he went back into the military again and spent a career in the Air Force. You know, he raised his flag every morning, all of his life. He's he chose to be buried at Arlington. He was always patriotic and had a deep belief in America's potential, even as he recognized all the ways that we were falling short, all the injustices, all the flaws. But he was able to stay resolute about the hope of what America could and should be. And I think for all of us in the higher ed sector, we have to say resolute and hopeful about what this sector can be. The promise of upward mobility, the promise of democratic citizenship and not be deterred by the struggles doesn't mean we ignore them because they're real. But we have to stay focused on our ultimate aspiration for a higher ed sector that helps ensure the health of the future of the country. 

00:37:54 Havidán Rodríguez 

And I think that's a great way to come bring this podcast to conclusion. Stay resolute, stay hopeful and stay focused. Chancellor King, thank you so very much for joining us today for sharing the important, the great work, the transformation work that's taking place at the State University of New York. We appreciate your leadership. To our listeners, thank you all for joining us today, and to listen to all episodes of the Pillars of Change Podcast or to submit your institution for a  future podcast, please visit msche.org/pillars of change. On behalf of the Middle States Commission on Higher Education, the University of Albany, the State University of New York, Chancellor King and myself, muchas gracias. Thank you. Stay resolute, hopeful, and stay focused, and keep doing great work. Thank you all so very much. 

00:38:57 John B. King, Jr. 

Thanks so much.