Episode 3 - Pat McGuire, President of Trinity Washington University

Dr. Katherine S. Conway-Turner, President of SUNY Buffalo State and a member of the Middles States Commission on Higher Education (MSCHE) Executive Committee, sits in the interview chair for this edition of the MSCHE Pillars of Change podcast. Dr. Conway-Turner, who was interviewed in the inaugural podcast, speaks with  Pat McGuire, president of Trinity Washington University. Their conversation about diversity, equity, and inclusion issues in higher education takes on more relevance coming the day after former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin was found guilty of killing George Floyd.

Transcript

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Speaker 1 0:14

[inaudible]

Kate Conway-Turner 0:17

Welcome to the Pillars of change presented by Middle States Commission on Higher Education , I'm Kate Conway-Turner,

Introduction

Kate Conway-Turner 0:22

president of SUNY, Buffalo State, and a member of the Middle States Executive Committee. I would like to thank you for joining me for the Commission's continuing series of podcasts , focusing on topics of diversity, equity, and inclusion. You may also remember that I was interviewed for the inaugural Pillars of Change podcast. And now I have the privilege of doing the interviewing. As you may know, the Middle States Commission on Higher Education is closely aligned with the ensuring trust and instilling confidence in higher education. As an institutional accreditor, the Commission prides itself on advocating for honest, self-reflection that results in meaningful change for our institutions. And because the Commission recognizes that it holds an important voice and space within higher education community, this podcast series spotlights highly effective institutional practices that have made a difference in the lives of our students through diversity equity and inclusion initiatives. Today, I have the distinct pleasure of talking to Pat McGuire president of Trinity Washington University. Under Pat's leadership since 1989, Trinity has transformed from its founding in 1897 as a nation's first Catholic liberal arts college for women into an institution that has gained prominence in recent years for its success in the education of low income students of color. Prompted by the call for action for racial equity in 2020, Trinity launched Trinity DARE: Driving Actions for Racial Equality, a five-pronged plan to address systemic inequalities as an institution. It's no wonder that Pat, who was a graduate of Trinity, is a sought after national thought leader who has served on numerous boards, including the Middle States Commission on Higher Education, was appointed in 2014 by former Secretary of Education Arne Duncan to the U.S. Department of Education Advisory Committee on Student Financial Aid and counts amount among her long list of honors the Washington Area Women's Foundation Visionary Award presented in 2019. So today it's my pleasure to have this conversation with Pat and welcome her to Pillars of Change. So I'd like to begin with one question

1. What is your sense of race, diversity, and inclusion in our country today?

Kate Conway-Turner 2:42

to get us started. So, Pat, what is your sense of race, diversity, and inclusion in our country today?

Pat McGuire 2:52

Well, Kate, thank you. First of all, for that generous introduction and thanks to Middle States for inviting me to be in this very important conversation. You know, we're doing this podcast today, the day after the verdict in the Derrick Chauvin trial , uh, the trial in which he was found guilty of the murder of George Floyd. And I believe this is truly an inflection point for our country. As many have said it is not the full achievement of justice. It is a step along the way, but it's a very important step. The police have been held accountable for the kind of brutality and violence that has been inflicted upon black men in particular, the black community for many generations. I believe that social change never comes easily. It does not come in peace. The kind of protests and outcry we have seen across the last many months after George Floyd's murder should be expected in a society that has not yet come to grips with its own terrible past of racism, white supremacy, slavery, and continuing racial hatred, hatred of immigrants, the immigrant rights movement being a parallel to the civil rights movement as well. I think the upset, the protest , uh , even sometimes violent protest while never to be condoned for the violence are an expression of a society's drive toward true deep transformative change. I think we are driving toward that change. I think we are far from completing it, but every one of us needs to see this moment as an opportunity to take the next step. And that's what I hope we do.

Kate Conway-Turner 4:32

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I agree with you 100% in all of that.

2. What role does higher education play in enhancing or altering the conversation of diversity and inclusion on individual campuses?

Kate Conway-Turner 4:38

Uh, could you reflect a little bit about what the role of higher education plays in enhancing or altering the conversations around diversity and inclusion on our own individual campuses?

Pat McGuire 4:50

Well, you know, higher education at its best should be leading the conversations about transformation on every issue in our society. We saw this in the late 1960s and early 1970s with the peace movement. It was truly not higher education, kind of in the abstract. It was our students and faculty who led the peace movement who demanded change in us policy in Vietnam, who said, hell no, I won't go. Uh, sometimes in very treacherous moments and hard fought moments in the same way many students on many campuses, even in the 60s were pioneers in civil rights. I dare say the institutions were not, but the students were, and college campuses are the places where students gather and students are the future. They are our hope for the future. So today , uh, after many years, you know, it's not just been one year of demand for racial change and not one year of demand that higher education lead that change. This has been going on for a long time. I've been a college president for 30 years, and I've seen this across the three decades that , that I've been Trinity's leader. Higher education has the capacity to lead social change. The question is, does it have the willpower? And I am not sure that we collectively, even at this inflection point, I'm not sure we still have the willpower. Now, there are many smaller institutions like mine randomly spread across the landscape, private or public, community colleges or liberal arts colleges or research institutions. There are many of us who individually do speak out and do one our institutions to be models of change. But sometimes we do not see those with the most clout and the most prestige stepping up to the moment. And frankly, those of us who are David to the Goliath of the problem, we can't do it alone. We need the bigger institutions. We need the Harvards and Princetons and Amhersts and , and UCs to really be out there in front with us shoulder to shoulder , uh, and proclaiming the need for higher education to do it. And how does this manifest itself? Well, first and foremost, you cannot create social change if you don't change yourself. The very first step toward any kind of reformation is acknowledging and accepting your own flaws and higher ed has yet to acknowledge and accept its own deep racism, it's exclusive practices that persist even to today. When I saw last week, the headlines about elite institutions denying admission to more than 95% of their applicants, you know, frankly, I am not impressed that maybe they accepted a few more black students, because what we know is they are rejecting thousands and thousands of students who need a place in higher education that does not advance the cause of racial or social equity in our society. We have a problem with prestige and elite ism in higher education. We have got to find a way to fix it. We have to find a way to lift up the institutions, whether it's the SUNY system, where there are many great institutions that don't get the spotlight, whether it's our great community college system that does so much good work, or whether it's small private colleges like Trinity that are doing the work of the Lord every day. We've got to find a way for the public to see that these institutions are as worthy and provide just as good an education as those big name schools do. And that's part of the issue right now , um, is that the institutions are too competitive and not cooperative enough. And those who can lead are not taking up the mantle .

Kate Conway-Turner 8:32

I want to return for a second to something you said , um , earlier in those comments about student voices being so important. And so you've been at Trinity for about 30 years. Have you seen the student voice change over that period?

Pat McGuire 8:47

Oh, very much so. And it's changed as we have changed as an institution. Uh , when I started, and I'm a Trinity alum, so , um, I can say , uh, I can not believe that my 50th reunion is coming up in two years . That is hard for me to accept because I'm still the kid I was in 1970 when I started here in many ways. But , uh, when I attended Trinity and when I came back as president, we were still predominantly white, predominantly Catholic, mostly residential. Um, you know, I tell our students today, well , I was diversity when I came here because I needed a full tuition scholarship. I couldn't have afforded to go to the Trinity, but for financial aid. Um, but what I saw in the 1990s as our student population began to change the conversation began to change quite dramatically. So the concerns of middle-class white women while seriously and important, certainly they're not the same concerns as the students I see today who are predominantly low income students , um, Pell grantees, many of whom, whether they're 18 or 38 have children , uh, most of whom live at home and most of whom are independent from parents. Even my youngest students for the most part are putting themselves through college. So their needs and their demands are different. We are, Trinity is also by the way , um , the only predominantly black and Hispanic serving institution in the District of Columbia. So, so our student body is 95% black and Hispanic. We have both characteristics. And these are students who are, are absolutely adamant that they're going to get the most juice out of this education as possible because they want to change the fortune of their families. Now their issues are racial equity to be sure, equity for the undocumented immigrant population, which is large on our campus as well. Um, but it's more than that. It is equity for their communities and their families. Many of our students come from Southeast DC where the inequity, the poverty has been chronic since forever in the nation's Capitol . They want to change that these are students who are not worried about when's the next party. Um, you know, am I going to rush sorority? We don't have sororities, but that's not what they're about. Um, they love to have fun. And of course, you know, they're not without , uh , joy and good humor, but where they put their passion is in this idea of personal change, personal transformation for the sake of their children. They're always talking about how they want to get this degree to prove to their children that it's worthwhile. Um , and then they want help to figure out how to change the conditions for their families. Um, it's a very different focus from when I went to college and, you know, I came to college saying, Oh, you know, I'll be president of the United States. I'll be a Senator. You know , uh , you know, the sort of very typical pie in the sky, lofty thoughts of a reasonably comfortable upbringing where I could think big thoughts beyond what I needed today. Today's students think about how they need to transform , um , what is much more local. And I think that's important, but also a reflection of both the , um , inequitable conditions. They live with the racism and discrimination they face and the poverty they face. We don't talk about poverty in this country anymore, and poverty is rampant and we need to be talking about it.

Kate Conway-Turner 12:22

Absolutely. So clearly , uh, on your campus and among your student body, when , um, acts of racism , uh , come to the forefront and we see them on our front pages and our news and so forth by social media, that they react from a real clear lived experience of what that, what that means. So I'm wondering if you could react

3. Please react to these two statements—Statements of support are important to solidify the position of the College or University. Actions and engagement are the hallmarks of institutional position and change.

Kate Conway-Turner 12:45

to two statements , um, statements of support are important to solidify the position of a campus when these kinds of things happen, actions and engagement, all the hallmarks of institutional position and change. So how do you feel about those statements thinking about your students and your campus as you just reflected on them ?

Pat McGuire 13:04

Well, the fact is we must articulate statements in order to position our philosophy, our purpose, our mission in the public eye. That's how we tell the public what we stand for, what we're all about, and that's important, but frankly, a statement without action is meaningless. It's just a bunch of pufferty it's advertising. Um , and that's why when we created Trinity Dare, the project on driving actions for racial equity, we chose those terms. We didn't want to have another symposium on racism. My God higher ed has thousands of those. We didn't want to study the problem anymore . We'll leave that to the research doctoral institutions. We were asking ourselves, what is the action that we can take on a daily basis that is going to create change. And, and I really wish more higher ed institutions would ask themselves that question. What is the action we can take? Um, in our case, it translates into action in speaking to employers and saying to employers, don't just recruit from your own alma mater, open those doors wider. And our students need to be at the table. Our students are black and Hispanic women. They need to be at the table of Amazon every bit, as much as the computer scientists from more elite universities. Um, and, and that's a kind of action. And then the action becomes, which is really hard for traditional liberal arts colleges. We have to ask ourselves, what is inhibiting racial equity within ourselves and how do we change? So the traditional liberal arts while beautiful and wonderful, and I love them, but they can also be part of reinforcing racism , uh, whether it's the , the selection of text , the Canon in English or history , um, or in , uh , we're looking right now at honor societies, some honors societies have rules and criteria that are systemically racist. And how do you deal with that? Um, so, so we're asking ourselves all of these questions and bringing them forward , uh, without any fear or favor and saying, where is the change that we have to create both internally at Trinity and externally in the community, and that all supports our mission and our statement of belief in racial equity.

Kate Conway-Turner 15:25

Absolutely.

4. What role does the College or University President play in diversity and inclusion both on campus and the surrounding communities?

Kate Conway-Turner 15:27

So if you might just reflect on your role as the college president , um, you know, what is your role in terms of diversity and inclusion on campus and the surrounding community, not your campuses, but your personal life ?

Pat McGuire 15:40

Well, it's, I believe it's very important and , uh , I sometimes get criticized for making it a personal quest of my own. Um, first of all, I have to admit that I don't know everything about this issue, even though I have worked , um, as , uh , the, I have been the minority person in many settings as a white person in predominantly black meetings, not only here at Trinity, but before that, when I worked in what was known as the street law program at Georgetown Law School, where I was teaching in the DC public schools and , and working through, which was my, my first awareness of some of the issues. Cause I, I did not grow up in a neighborhood where I would have encountered , um, most African-Americans on a daily basis. So this was all a transformative experience for me as I went through this experience. And then at Trinity, as we welcomed more and more students of color, I realized I could not speak for those students because I didn't know anything about them really. And the first thing I as a leader have to do is to say, students, you, I need to help you find your voices, but you're the ones who have to speak and you have to be authentic in speaking and I have to help you do that. Um, and that was really important. Now what happened of course, was at , in the 1990s at Trinity, this happened huge outcry from more traditional corners of the institution and constituencies. Why was I ruining alma mater? You know, why was I , uh, suggesting that what the students wanted , uh, was important? I had a big , um, uh , confrontation at one point with, with the art history program who were teaching very conventional art history down at the National Gallery of Art. And there was not a single black artist in the, in the syllabus at all. And the students came to me and said, why are you forcing us to buy a $150 textbook that , that has all white people you know, and I went to the faculty and the faculty said, why are you, why are you interfering with our academic freedom? And it was a classic classic case of me , um, individually and personally feeling the fire of righteousness on behalf of the students who told me how they were feeling and what they were seeing, and then running up against the traditionalism of the Academy and, and knowing that I had an obligation , um , to respect and honor academic freedom, but I also had an obligation to our students to help create the change that they said was needed. That was a very interesting and frothy time and Trinity's history. It wasn't just art history. It was every part of the curriculum. Um, the faculty had to get to a point where they would change , uh , and go through the kind of conversion experience that I was experiencing to . Um, at one point I gave the faculty a speech in which I said, don't tell me the students are unprepared. It is we who are unprepared. We are unprepared to understand and work with a different student population. I'm very proud of Trinity today. And to say, we we've over the 30 years I've been here. Now we've crossed that Rubicon and we've come out on the other side. But the personal transformation of everybody engaged with the process is absolutely vital in order for it to work. And many people don't understand that about higher ed. This is where I go back to you. Can't just say to , uh , you know, an elite institution, well, take 10% more black students or, or Pell grantees that does nothing. If you're not willing to do the deep transformation that leads to the kind of successful environment where those students can, can thrive.

Kate Conway-Turner 19:18

What will they find when they get there? Right?

Pat McGuire 19:20

Exactly. And will the institution hear their voices or just expect them to conform to the norms of the institution? That was the criticism I went through, that I was changing the institution to conform to the students when the students instead, should have been expected to step up to who we were. And I disagreed with that. I, I, as much as I cherished the Trinity that I knew , um, and I wanted the students to, you know, have traditions and all it wasn't that I was throwing everything out, but I wanted us to be very thoughtful about , um, when we say a student must learn the cannon , do we understand that the cannon is socially constructed by , um , you know, people in the 19th century who had no knowledge of any other population, but their own? What is the cannon? Who creates it? Who has the power to change it? Um, and boy did that lead to all kinds of , uh , debates and arguments and, and some very tense moments. But we did , um , finally, and a few years ago, we got a big grant to do this. We adopted the practice of inclusive excellence and the faculty led that. So we went from resistance to a period now where the faculty are leading inclusive excellence, which of course means that the faculty always stop and say, where are the students at? And how can I understand my students first in order to be great partner in teaching them along the way? And that's very transformative for faculty.

Kate Conway-Turner 20:53

Well, it sounds like, you know, you've led a great deal of transformation at your institution to truly have a student centered to who your students are today.

Pat McGuire 21:03

Yes.

Kate Conway-Turner 21:04

So thinking of that point, what

5. What have been your greatest opportunities and challenges in advancing your efforts on your campus?

Kate Conway-Turner 21:06

are the challenges or opportunities for Trinity right now?

Pat McGuire 21:11

Well, there are still many, many challenges and, and if I didn't think the opportunities were greater, it would be hard to keep doing it. But , um, well the challenges are several fold. First of all , um, there is outside of the institution, there is a societal bias in favor of larger, more well-known institutions. Uh, those with , uh, teams that go to the Final Four in basketball, or, or, you know, the Bowl Championship series , uh, we can never forget the impact of big time college sports on the public perception of higher education. And it's real. Um, we are not only a predominantly black and Hispanic serving institution, but we are still primarily a women's institution. Um, we're 95% female. We have some men in our graduate and professional programs. Um, but there are very few women's colleges left today. Um, and, and so we are an unusual kind of institution when you consider the, the conventional social expectations for higher ed and that, that , um, poses challenges, but also opportunities. Um, the, the circumstances in which students find out about colleges and develop their understanding of where they want to go to college is all discolored by advertising and sports and, and , um, sort of irrational concepts rather than rational concept of where would you find the best fit? Where would you thrive? Um, and, and admissions is not a student center at exercise at all. Admissions in most places , uh, is totally about , um, the institutional bottom line , um, and institutional fame and prestige. Um, so, so those are challenges. How do we, how do we work with , um, students who, who , um , don't know anything about going to college because they're first gen , um, but they watched a ball game on TV and that's where they want to go, which is not the way to figure out can I learn there? Um, now this is where the opportunities come in and , and the opportunities for Trinity. And I think many universities like us are great. Um, we have developed very strong and important partnerships with the DC public schools , um, and all of our areas , school systems. Um, I think I have long said higher ed has to get outside of itself and participate fully in what some called the P20 system , um, that we have to stop acting like being engaged with schools is kind of a volunteer exercise on the side or, or something good we do for the community without really caring about it. We're doing dual enrollment, we're doing early college. Um, we have started programs at the request of the school system to align our, our pathway curricula with what they're saying they need. Um, and we're working with the business community to on that. So , um, we've created a much stronger pathway in health services, in data analytics, in some of the fields where the students will, I am quite confident, persists through baccalaureate and master's degrees, but they might start with certificates. They might start with associate degrees. We have not hesitated at Trinity to develop new credential levels. And we've been grateful to Middle States, for example, for approving , um , our substantive changes on that. And because we serve this distinctively low income population in the city, being able to offer credentials that are shorter and stair-step make it more likely that we can get the students to take one course and one set of courses, and then the next, and then the next. And we find that the community is responding quite beautifully, that they understand that , um, to be able to recognize student work at a much earlier time before graduation, and to say, you know, here's a certificate you have completed these 18 credits. Um, this is our associate degree. Bravo. Now come over to the baccalaureate degree. Um, higher education has created itself , um, uh, almost painted ourselves into a corner , um, by insisting on what some people call the four year degree, which I hate that term, even because very few students go through in four years for a baccalaureate. Um, they're not four year degrees, their baccalaureate degrees, they are a step along the way. They're important. I don't, I don't disrespect their importance , um, but that's not the only kind of learning that students can do in college. And we need to be more open in the same way. Those of us that are more traditional institutions or grow out of that model need to see the opportunity of partnership with community colleges. And, you know, we're very pleased at Trinity to work with Montgomery College and Prince George's Community College and , and the other great colleges in the area , um, and to do so cooperatively and say, where can we dovetail and intersect? Um, those are all opportunities that I think higher ed should be doing all the time.

Kate Conway-Turner 26:09

Well, it's obviously there's quite a few opportunities out there for Trinity and you're navigating the challenges as well as you move forward. Um , you know, this is an interesting time that we're in, in 2021

6. How can the lessons learned from issues highlighted in 2020 and 2021 (Pandemic, BLM, the Elections, etc.) advance your thoughts about diversity, equity, and inclusion…and how can these lessons best be applied to Trinity?

Kate Conway-Turner 26:22

that we've been in for awhile . Um, and I'm wondering if you might reflect on any lessons you're learning , uh, that can help in the era of diversity, equity and inclusion from these multiple crises that we're facing. We're still in a pandemic. Though, I'd like to see that we see the light at the end of the tunnel, but we're still in the tunnel. Um, black lives matter. You know, you've mentioned earlier the , um, uh , the court case with Chauvin just yesterday coming out , um , really , uh, contested elections , uh, you know, a country that's really divided. Lots of crises swirling around us and a broader sense around our individual campuses. And so I'm wondering , um, what lessons that you're learning from 2020, 2021 that are going to inform your work as you move forward at Trinity?

Pat McGuire 27:16

Well, that's a great question. And, you know, all of us are in , uh, inside of the centrifuge as it's swirling and tilting , uh , and, and whirling. And we don't know where any of this is coming out, really, you know , uh, we are very hopeful that the pandemic will be at an end this time next year, but I've lived long enough to know never to count on anything and be ready for everything. Of course. Um, we are delighted , uh, with the change of administrations in town. And I say that not as a political comment, but as a human comment as a time to return to some kind of normalcy and balance , um, adjust as , uh , the Derrick Chauvin verdict yesterday, I think lifted a bit of a cloud. Um, even though it's not the end, it lifted a cloud. Uh, so to getting a political administration, that's back to something semi resembling normal, agree or disagree with the politics, is at least gives us breathing space. You know, it , it can help us see. Now, where does that take us from here? Um, I've developed , um , several thoughts on this , uh , specifically with regard to racial equity, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Um, I think first of all , uh, at Trinity to be sure, and I'd say other colleges and universities, we have to do this work , um, rooted in , um, the sense of disciplines and pathways that the students want to follow. It is too hard to do it as kind of this master project where we talk about these lofty goals. Um, and, and don't really do anything beyond the talk and, you know, all politics are local, as they say, and it's true with , with change too. So we have to engage students , um , who are passionate about the specific issues in their lives or where they see their passion. So we have some students who are very passionate about healthcare . Uh , we have a big nursing program and, and ways to engage our students with the issues in healthcare , the racial equity issues and in disease in the District of Columbia are enormous. Um, and, and to, to the credit of our faculty, they have understood this and have embedded in their coursework, the kind of research opportunities and, and study opportunities that lead the students to focus on those kinds of issues that can lead to change in their communities or in their lives. So during the pandemic, we've had student presentations about , uh , about the inequitable patterns of disease in Southeast DC, which is obviously a racial issue here in this city. Um, we have other, other , uh, disciplines are focusing on, on childhood trauma , um, and the impact of, of the COVID 19 pandemic , um, on trauma or the impact of police violence on children in neighborhoods. Um, we have another whole study going on over in the sciences , um, with our chemists and biologists , um, on pollution in the low income neighborhoods in the city that are frequently used as dumping grounds. And, and the faculty have taken this on, in fact, they're doing research in parts of the city where there are bus garages. Um, so how our rhetoric about racial equity ties into the actual work that we do , um, in teaching and research and community service is very, very important. So that's one way, you know, I've seen to institutionalize it , um , the other way. And you had asked me earlier about the president's role in transformation. Um, the, the other way to do this coming out of the pandemic is to be very, very serious about , um, hiring the kind of change agents and change leaders that we need to sustain this for the future. I'm very aware that having been a president for 30 years, I'm not going to do it for 30 more years, you know , um, and someday I need to leave this institution secure in the belief that the pathway we're on will continue , uh, perhaps better than when I've been here. Um, and, and to do that, it needs not just the president, but the whole community staffed in a way that really shares the vision. And , um, I put a big premium on , uh , do the individuals we hire, whether it's faculty or administrators, do they really share this passion? Do they have vision? And of course, do they represent and reflect the student population we are serving? Um, and, you know, you might say, well, sure, everybody's like that. Well, no, everybody is not like that. Um, you know, sometimes I will read a, a tenure application , um, and the faculty member will show all kinds of creativity about , uh, about inclusive excellence and changing pedagogy to make sure students are successful. And then other faculty do nothing but lament how, how bad the students are. Um, and if somebody is lamenting, then they don't belong here. Um, and if somebody is saying, I had this problem, here's how I solved it. Boy, that person is the right person. Um, so how I make those choices and those choices are even more urgent now as we come out of the pandemic, because we know that it's a, it's a moment of change for just about everybody. And we want our students to be ready to run with the opportunities they have outside of here.

Kate Conway-Turner 32:41

And actually

7. In what ways do you hope your institution’s efforts on diversity, equity, and inclusion will impact your current and future students?

Kate Conway-Turner 32:42

running with those opportunities. That leads me to think about , uh , what your real hopes are for your students. Um , the current students and future students, given the layered work you're doing to really address the needs and understand a diverse population of students. Um, so what, what are your hopes, can you kind of talk a little bit about now you have a magic wand for a minute Pat, so what , what do you hope?

Pat McGuire 33:09

Well, I hope students are taken seriously and seen as the solutions , um, wherever they choose to work and are welcome. So, so, I mean, I'll tell a story. Um, we have a wonderful benefactor , um, who supports nursing students here. And , um, he, he told me one day something startling, a self revelation , and this is, this is why I like him so much that when he first met our students, he wasn't too sure. Um, and you know, there's all kinds of , of codes in that. Um, but then our students have achieved a hundred percent score on the NClexs. They're being hired by all the hospitals. Um, one of our nursing faculty said, do you realize the Trinity is changing the face of nursing in the city? And I said, yes, I'm very proud of that. Of the hospitals seek us out as partners. And the benefactor came back to me and said, I am so pleased and proud that I invested in these students. Okay. So having , uh, someone who's very influential in the business community say I took a risk. I wasn't too sure. And now I'm so pleased and proud. In fact, he doubled his gift last year. Um , that's what I want for my students. I want them sought out , um, in whatever places they want to work. When Amazon came to town , um, and had meetings with area universities, we were not invited. And I, my hair went on fire about that. And I, I went to business leaders and tech leaders and said, you need my students at your tables. Um, and they said, well, you don't have a computer science degree. And I said, well, computer science is not the only kind of work available in your companies. Do , do you have [a computer science degree]? Well, none of those executives have computer science degrees, you know, and , uh , but we, I came back and with our deans, we created change in the curriculum to add data analytics and Infotech and all of that. But we went back out to the business community and said, you have to include us. And lo and behold, we've been invited into all of the same circles as all of the larger universities with their computer science. And that means my students are going to have seats at those tables, whether the students , um , choose those, or whether they persist at some point they're on their own. But my job is to be sure that wherever a student is capable of working in , wants to work, that she's going to be welcomed there and not disrespected because she's a young black woman, she's a woman. She didn't, she has a degree in history, not computer science, or , um, she went to Trinity and not Virginia Tech. Um, you know, we need , um, uh, the women we serve to be seen as, as competent and capable. And , and that's part of social change. Um, so much of corporate life is just like university admissions, where a narrow band of colleges , uh, is who the employers seek out and , uh , who they hire from. They mostly hire from their own alma maters and changing those pathways is part of creating the social change for the field .

Kate Conway-Turner 36:11

Absolutely. Well,

Conclusion

Kate Conway-Turner 36:13

Pat, you have really shared so much about the work you're doing at Trinity, your leadership, your passion, and commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion. And most importantly, I think the hope that you have for your students to move forward and become the amazing leaders that they will be, but the door needs to be open. And so just really reinforcing that. So I really want to thank you for joining us today and sharing so much of the work that you're doing in this area and reflecting on the work yet to be done for all of us in higher education , uh , need to do together to move ahead. So to our listeners, thank you for joining us. If you want , uh , the commission to highlight the efforts of your institution and a future podcast , please visit us at MSCHE.org/pillarsofchange to submit your suggestion. On behalf of the Middle States Commission on Higher Education and our guests. I'd like to say, I'm Kate Conway-Turner and thank you for joining us.

Speaker 1 37:35

[inaudible] .