EPISODE 066 | Building Together: Collaborative Power in Program Development with Lindsey Vestal & Lara Desrosiers

How do you feel about collaboration? Working alongside someone in your field of expertise can be challenging. It requires trust, open communication, and a willingness to adapt. But when done right, collaboration allows you to leverage each other’s strengths, balance out weaknesses, and create something truly greater than the sum of its parts.

In this episode, host Melissa LaPointe (she/her) welcomes two exceptional guests:

• Lindsey Vestal (she/her), founder of "The Functional Pelvis", the first OT-run pelvic health practice in New York City.
• Lara Desrosiers (she/her), founder/owner of the "Pelvic Resilience" private practice in Ontario and specializes in mental health, pelvic health, and pain science. 

Together, Lindsey and Lara share their journey of collaboration over the past 18 months, resulting in a groundbreaking project: a trauma-informed pelvic health certification program tailored for OTs.

This engaging conversation is filled with humour, impactful stories, and actionable insights. Lindsey and Lara open up about their process, from crafting a comprehensive curriculum to engaging participants meaningfully and balancing virtual and in-person training. They’re candid about the triumphs and challenges they faced, offering listeners an authentic look into their collaborative experience.

Whether you’re an OT, an educator, or simply someone who’s passionate about meaningful collaboration, this episode is a must-listen!

What You'll Learn: 

• Collaboration is Key: Learn how to trust your collaborators, leverage your expertise, and balance each other's weaknesses.
• 📢 Innovative Tech Talk: Could an emoji-based system of communication increase your efficiency? 
• The Best of Both Worlds: Get tips on integrating the benefits of face-to-face interactions into virtual settings.
• Transparency Builds Trust: Understand how being transparent about your offerings can increase both your reach and participant commitment.
• The Power of Feedback: Learn to use feedback as a tool for refinement. Focus on delivering quality content that meets participants’ needs, keeping them engaged and confident.

Join Melissa, Lindsey, and Lara for a heartfelt discussion that will leave you motivated to embrace collaboration and innovation in your own work. You won’t want to miss it!

OTHER LINKS MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: 

Lindsey Vestal (she/her) is the founder of "The Functional Pelvis", the first OT-run pelvic health practice in New York City, which not only provides pelvic health services, but has also been offering accessible training online since 2018. Learn more at functionalpelvis.com

Lara Desrosiers (she/her) is a specialist in mental health and pain science, and runs Ontario's "Pelvic Resilience" private practice. Lara integrates trauma-informed care and evidence-based techniques to address the complexities surrounding pelvic health issues. Learn more at pelvicresilience.ca

💬 Join the Conversation
We’d love to hear your thoughts on this episode! Share your reflections and connect with our community on Instagram @otsgonerogue

📬 Stay Connected
Don't miss out on future episodes and updates. Make sure you're subscribed to our newsletter.

otsgonerogue.com

Thank you for being a part of the OTGR community. Let’s continue to inspire, innovate, and advocate for inclusive, transformative healthcare so that we not only know better, we do better.

Melissa & the OTGR Podcast Team

Transcript

Melissa LaPointe [00:00:06]:
You're listening to the OTs Gone Rogue podcast, where we inspire therapists to think outside the box and do things differently. I'm your host, Melissa Lapointe. My passion is in helping OT entrepreneurs have a bigger impact on the world while building a life they love and doing transformative work that lights them up. On each episode of the show, I'm gonna share tools and tricks to help you flex your entrepreneurial muscles and grow your business from the inside out. I wanna see more OTs step up as visionary leaders, change makers, and influential CEOs. So let's get started. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the OT's Gone Rogue podcast. I'm your host, Melissa Lapointe.

Melissa LaPointe [00:00:56]:
Now before I jump in to the introductions for the guests on today's episode, I'm gonna share a little bit about my process. So when I am recording podcast episodes, it is my preference to wait until after I have recorded the episode itself before I record the intros. Now I do this for a few reasons. The first is because I'm conscious of time for my guests and full disclosure, they don't need to see me or hear me fumble if I make a mistake, if I need to start the intro over again. They don't need to be part of that. Let me go through that on my own. The second reason why I prefer to record the intros after the fact is that I, personally, when I'm a guest on someone else's podcast, sometimes find it a little awkward to sit there and listen to them share my accolades and share my intro. So I've just decided to not put my guests through that awkward experience, and I do it after the fact.

Melissa LaPointe [00:01:59]:
The third reason why I choose to do it this way is because, generally speaking, after I've recorded the episode, I have a much deeper sense of connection to the content. And when I'm fortunate to have guests join me, to the guests themselves. And that is certainly the feeling that I'm carrying into these introductions. I loved today's episode, and I adore these women and the work that they are doing. So I'm just still on a little bit of a high as I record this, you know, this beautiful dopamine, oxytocin high from our conversation. So I'm so excited for you to listen in. Alright. So who do I have with me today? I have Lindsey Vestal.

Melissa LaPointe [00:02:50]:
She is the founder of the Functional Pelvis. The functional pelvis started off as the first pelvic health practice in New York City run by an OT, but as we all know, that has since evolved into something much bigger than a health practice. So through her functional pelvis platform, in addition to her ongoing collaborative partnerships, Lindsay's been offering online training for OTs in pelvic health since 2018. She's the host and primary facilitator of the Facebook group OTs For Help Pelvic Health, which now has over 53 members worldwide, and she's also the host of the OTs in Pelvic Health podcast. Lindsay is based out of Arizona in the United States. The second guest joining me today is Lara Desrosiers, and Lara is an OT currently based out of Ontario, Canada. She has a passion for mental health, pelvic health, and pain science. She's worked in community mental health and addictions since 2009.

Melissa LaPointe [00:03:56]:
And Lara's a self proclaimed advocate on really diving deep, so on integrating a deeper understanding of pain, the nervous system, and the body into mental health care, and of integrating a deeper understanding of psychology and trauma into rehabilitation practice. She has a private practice called pelvic resilience, where she supports clients experiencing pelvic floor dysfunction and persistent pain to get back to living life. Lara's a teacher and mentor to clinicians interested in developing their psychologically trauma informed practices, or rather I should say, their psychologically informed and trauma informed practices. Together, these 2 powerhouses have teamed up to create the first ever trauma informed pelvic health certification, where they're helping OTs to bridge the gap between hands on techniques and transformative healing. On today's episode, you're gonna hear us pull back the curtain and talk about the ins and outs of their certification program, including how it all came about, the timeline that they were operating on, how they made their executive decisions in terms of the program structure, the curriculum, content creation, guest facilitators, and more. I loved this conversation, and you're gonna hear me mention more than once. I adore these 2. I applaud the work that they are doing.

Melissa LaPointe [00:05:26]:
I am a huge fan. So without further ado, turn up the volume and get comfortable, and let's roll out this episode. Alright. So now that we have officially hit record on this episode, again, I'm just gonna highlight for the audience how much I want this conversation to be in person. It's been a long time since we the 3 of us have connected, which we have referenced in your solo episodes. And, again, just acknowledging the different directions that we have gone with our work and know how we all started not quite knowing where this was going to lead but having some faith that we would figure it out so yeah kudos kudos to all 3 of us for being here So the focus of today's episode is more on the collaboration and the work that you 2 are doing. I've already heard some pretty cool things in terms of your trauma informed pelvic health certification, so that's gonna be the focus of today's conversation. Let's start at the beginning.

Melissa LaPointe [00:06:38]:
Who reached out to who? How did this even I mean, you're in each other's circle. You've worked together, like but how did this start? Where did the idea come from? You know, was it a late night Voxer message? Fill me in on the on the back end details.

Lindsay Vestal [00:06:54]:
Oh, our platform of choice has been Facebook Messenger.

Melissa LaPointe [00:06:58]:
Alright. Alright.

Lara Desrosiers [00:07:00]:
And I'll I'll kick it off. Like, I'll say since, taking your course, Melissa, and learning more about just my interest in public health was sparked not that long ago, like, 2017, 2018. And then I found Lindsay who was, like, pioneering this field. So I have been, like, a big super fan of Lindsay for quite a long time, and I honestly can't remember the first time we connected one to 1. Like, I I'm sure I, like, danced around the kitchen, but that when that happened. It's like, oh my gosh. Lindsay's talking to me. But, Lindsay, I think, interesting.

Lindsay Vestal [00:07:48]:
As I sort of got more and more into the field of pelvic health and was really finding my footing and my skill set of how I can apply psychology to pelvic health, Lindsay's interest, it sounded like, was going in that direction. And so we really just found each other, I think, with that common interest. Lindsay signed up for one of the courses that I was offering, my CBT skills for distressing symptoms course, and then I fangirled out a little bit more. But then our conversations just kind of progressed from there. And at one point, Lindsay mentioned to me that she was thinking about building on her offerings and offering a trauma informed program for OTs in pelvic health, and that was something that had been marinating in the back of my mind as well. And so I think I proposed it. Why don't we work together? And was so excited when she was jumped on board with that. And it's been it's been a match made in heaven.

Lindsay Vestal [00:08:52]:
I have to absolutely mirror that and just add a little bit to it, which is like I was the one fan girling because to me just to to to know how deeply immersed Laura was in the mental wellness aspect of pelvic health was just like there wasn't not many other people I feel like were talking about these conversations and highlighting these things, and I drew so much inspiration from Laura's perspective and just felt so so drawn to her, so connected to her. And so I just wanna say that I was the one dancing around the kitchen, especially when when she offered when she you know, we just of course, it kind of came to this synergistically. And then when she made it official and and asked, you know, that was just like it it felt I just felt my entire being expanding, you know, with this idea. And then working with her over the course of a year and a half developing this thing, like, I remember my family and I were traveling in Wyoming. I went to the public library and just spent hours with her. You know, I just have all these reference points of all of the ways we were working with one another, and I just have so many endorphins thinking about the process. And to now be on this side of it, knowing we've gone through our 1st official cohort, we're about to have our graduation in a couple weeks. It's really surreal to reflect back and to hear this question, Melissa, and just kind of thinking about those touch points and the journey that has ensued.

Lindsay Vestal [00:10:16]:
And it's like, wow. We made it a reality, Laura. Like, super high five.

Melissa LaPointe [00:10:23]:
How so roughly 18 months of work gone into this. How many times were you able to meet in person, not including the so I know you had a retreat in person, but how much time working sessions did you have in person?

Lindsay Vestal [00:10:38]:
A big time. Zero. 0. We met for the first time in person at the retreat, which was great.

Melissa LaPointe [00:10:45]:
My goodness to be a fly on the wall for that. I'm already getting a little oxytocin hit and mentioning that hug. That's awesome.

Lindsay Vestal [00:10:53]:
It was a good hug.

Melissa LaPointe [00:10:54]:
Yeah. I bet it was. So tell me some of the challenges of working virtually on a project. I'm gonna dive into the project itself here in a moment. But in terms of sharing the workload, in terms of these co working sessions that are virtual in nature? I know that many of us have adapted over the last my gosh, how many years has it been since we've been forced to do a little bit more virtually? But there are always some challenges with that. So how did that play out in your working relationship?

Lindsay Vestal [00:11:26]:
Yeah. I think you correct me if I'm wrong, Lindsay, but it it kinda kicked off pretty seamlessly. I think technology has helped a lot in that way, where, like, with with Messenger, with emails, we're able to drop a thought in. And, like, if we go back and look at all of your messages, they're so rich in terms of just the ideas that would start, and then we'd have time to marinate them and then build on them. I think the one challenge that we are we're actually reflecting on this at the retreat a little bit that we found with that is if we're leaning on that technology and those audio messages, sometimes it's hard to go back and find, like, those nuggets of gold. So Lindsay had a great system where she was using little emojis to highlight voice notes that she wanted to come back to. But yeah. Like, I think that piece of it went pretty seamlessly.

Lindsay Vestal [00:12:34]:
And the other thing that stands out for me is it's so interesting in terms of the content that we were developing. It's a lot of the discussions and the things we were taking a deep dive into were things like our own nervous system, boundaries, self care, having really strong communication with the people in our lives, and so we applied that to our working relationship as we went. One of one of the challenges I think we encountered was just because of the time difference. Sometimes we would get like, I would get notes late at night, but wanted to reply, and so just having really clear communications and boundaries in place, if either of us was feeling overwhelmed or pressured, we were able to communicate that with one another and figure out how to to keep it going. That's something that I had valued immensely of being able to have that open communication.

Lindsay Vestal [00:13:35]:
For me, I just loved that Lara didn't mind audio because I am very anyone who who's ever texted me, talked with me knows I am is I'm a talker. I'm not a writer. And so I just love that she didn't mind that, and then in fact, she met me there. You know, she also thrived on it. And so very quickly, just with the amount of rich responses I was getting from her, that is where that I felt a bit overwhelmed in the sense that which one do I come back to? Which one was logistical? Which one was something I needed to marinate on? So that's where that emoji, technique got developed. Another thing that comes to mind to me was just that I learned so much about boundaries working with Laura. She she really steps into that and to it's the first time I've ever had a working relationship with someone over such a duration of time that really exemplified that. Like, Laura really does practice what she preaches.

Lindsay Vestal [00:14:29]:
And I learned so much from that because let's face it, we're still like, it's an ebb and flow. At the end of the day, we're empaths. We're females. You know, this is something that we are still and I wanted to be a good partner to her. You know what I mean? Like, I wanted to always support her and and be be in a good relationship with her so that there was that dance, especially over a sustained period of time. And then the third thing was for me is that I love partnering with people who, compliment a skill set. And I'm gonna tell you right now, I am not a very organized person, and Laura is the most organized person I've ever met. And so that worked so well for me because it I was able to bring out aspects that I really cared about and that perhaps I love to step into.

Lindsay Vestal [00:15:21]:
Hopefully, it didn't it didn't drain her too much, but to to have a partner that that that I could feel free to to be myself and to be creative knowing that that basket was being held with the organizational aspect was something that that really helped me thrive.

Lindsay Vestal [00:15:38]:
I if I could just sorry, Melissa, echo that. And in in no way, like, we're painting such a beautiful picture here. And it it really was a beautiful picture because I it's it's just has been such a lovely match because in that same way, Lindsay was able to lean on my organizational skills. I I've come a long way with the support of you, Melissa, I would say, but it's still not my favorite to show up in a marketing capacity, to really sell things. And that is something that Lindsay has so much experience on that I felt, I I also felt a little bit unsure and didn't wanna lean too much on her throughout the process, didn't wanna put too much of that on her plate, but the feedback I would kept getting from Lindsay was, no. It's okay. We got that. So I felt really good to lean into where I really wanted to go, which is in that creativity and and kind of getting that content together alongside her and the organizational pieces here in the.

Melissa LaPointe [00:16:51]:
I love that you both brought in your learning styles and in terms of processing and, you know, you're right in terms of auditory processing and organization. Is this something that evolved naturally or was this part of an onboarding? Okay. How do you prefer to learn? What are our communication guidelines? Did you have an agenda and discuss that or was that something that evolved naturally throughout your working relationship?

Lindsay Vestal [00:17:19]:
I think it evolved completely naturally. You know, we weren't very formal about it. But the one thing that is important is that I think we both felt comfortable if there were things, right, that that were messy or that didn't you know, that we needed those boundaries. Hey. I've got a lot going on in my personal life this week. I'm gonna take a step back. And and we because because I think we both felt so comfortable, with that ebb and flow, it just was so natural. It just was so natural.

Lindsay Vestal [00:17:46]:
And, you know, I wish I could tell you that could always be the case. This is where when you know you had a a dream partnership, because I think that going into it in the future, those things are really important to talk about. So that guy, I feel incredibly lucky, but I I think that that's an important thing to put on the table before before relationships and partnerships start.

Melissa LaPointe [00:18:09]:
The 2 things that I wanna comment on. So one and I feel like I should get some credit for this. But in a couple of years' time, whenever you are really solid in your trauma informed pelvic health certification, a new revenue stream for you is to take the transcripts of those audio messages and sell them as your memoirs. So you heard it here first, folks. This is my idea, but I would buy it. I'm telling you now. But the second thing, Lindsay, I have to circle back to the emojis. Which emojis were you using? I love

Lindsay Vestal [00:18:43]:
that. An angel emoji? Yeah.

Melissa LaPointe [00:18:46]:
Love that. What a fabulous technique for someone that also does a lot of audio messages with my team and with different clients back and forth. Yeah. There was definitely a little light bulb moment when I heard that technique. Brilliant. Love it. So how did you decide on this being a certification versus a 3 day course?

Lindsay Vestal [00:19:10]:
Yeah. That that was a lot of conversation back and forth, and it's interesting. I've actually we've had this conversation. I've actually had a lot of questioning from Canadian colleagues about why certification? Why certification? But, yeah, I really leaned on, I think, Lindsay's, Lindsay has just such a great grasp on what OTs starting out in pelvic health in the states are asking for and looking for. And one of the things that she said that really stuck with me was that one of the things OTs are saying that they're really needing is something that gives them the confidence and backing to step into clinics and to step into roles and really advocate for the unique things that we as OTs can bring to the table. And there was a really strong sense and we knew that our target audience, especially in our first cohort, would be US based OTs practicing in pelvic health, that that is really what they were looking for and wanting. Is that fair to say, Lindsay?

Lindsay Vestal [00:20:31]:
Yeah. I think so. And I think that the more we realize the richness of content and also the duration that we wanted them to experience, because let's let's face it, stepping into a trauma informed perspective is not something we do overnight. We really need to practice and and make mistakes and learn from them and get kinda messy in the treatment room and not sure if this is gonna work. How how is this gonna go? And so we really wanted to provide a container that held for those experiences. And so for us, that was a duration of 4 and a half, 5 months of meeting and being able to intersperse faculty to come into the program to offer a variety of perspectives that we're not experts in to then just open forums like masterminds, case studies, questions, to then also Laura and I looking at what lessons they were supposed to go through over that 1 or 2 weeks and then adding richness to that in our meetings. And so I think that it's a factor of just having that time to roll up your sleeves. And so I think that's why it needed to be more than a 3 day course to really do it justice.

Lindsay Vestal [00:21:40]:
And to be honest with you, it probably could be even longer than the four and a half months, You know? And and, you know, who knows? Maybe maybe that will grow in one day. But I think those were things that were really important to us that it wasn't a technique based course that you walked into for the weekend, felt amazing on Monday, little bit less sure on Tuesday. By Wednesday, you were back to your old tricks. You know, we really wanted to have the time and space for them to process, also knowing that so much personal reflection was happening behind the scenes that we needed to allow time and space for that as well. It was an incredibly healing experience for everyone, and, again, giving them that confidence to bring those treatment sessions and treatment techniques into their own practice settings on an ongoing basis. This was not something that was one and done. We really wanted them to step into their expertise with this content.

Lindsay Vestal [00:22:31]:
I think that that goes so well with some of the challenges that I've heard from Canadian educators around getting buy in from pelvic health clinicians to take trauma informed courses. They're really wanting that 2, 3 hour course that's gonna teach them trauma informed care skills. They're really even selling, like, a 2 day trauma informed care course hasn't been selling here. But the reality is is that being trauma informed is a way of being that is a process that takes time and takes really immersing ourselves in the concept. So, yeah, just to echo everything Lindsay just said about the importance to us of really, I think making sure folks were really bought into that process and had gone through those ebbs and flows of figuring out how to be trauma informed in a way that that's authentic to them as an individual person and clinician.

Melissa LaPointe [00:23:35]:
How did you decide on the length of this certification? The time? In terms of well, okay. So let's actually back up. Tell me about the format of the certification. Is there a specific start time, end time knowing so we have to preface that by saying you just finished or you're almost finished of your first cohort. So there's a lot of info that I'm sure you have gained from that and possibly some changes that you are making. But what is the current format of the certification? Is there a concrete start time, end time? Is it you know, how much of it is live? You know, is it in asynchronous? Like, what is the delivery style and the format of the certification as it now stands?

Lindsay Vestal [00:24:23]:
So our pilot version is, is this hybrid model where we really wanted to give folks the ability and the agency to kind of go through the bulk of the foundational learning at their pace. So we decided to make that, recorded, and online. And I remember actually one of the first pieces of feedback we got from the length of each video that we put out, wanting to make it feel really digestible and not overwhelming to folks. So there's lessons divided into modules with these little bite sized chunks of videos. And the first piece of feedback that just got me feeling a bit more confident about it all was we so appreciate that you did that because it makes it so easy to go through the content and is is so regulating for my nervous system was the feedback we got too. And then, yes, Lindsay mentioned, we are we did have, support calls intermixed throughout. So, a lesson or if it was a week with a couple of smaller lessons, 2 lessons would get released, and the support calls are biweekly at this point. So they have 2 weeks to kind of go through that content, and then we all meet together live, and we talk about the concepts in there.

Lindsay Vestal [00:25:57]:
And, again, like, not to add a ton of new information, but to really help folks integrate what they're learning and talk about how they're applying it to their own self care and to their clinical work.

Melissa LaPointe [00:26:07]:
Okay. So everyone for your first cohort was relatively at the same pace.

Lindsay Vestal [00:26:12]:
Yeah. We yeah. Yeah. We give that suggested schedule and that guidance to move through it in order to make the most of it at that pace.

Lindsay Vestal [00:26:20]:
And in order to get the certification, you know, you needed to provide reflections on a workbook that Laura and I created as well as a case study that demonstrated how you integrated the tools that you learned throughout the course. And so another example of how this was cohort style and in in terms of your temporal question there, Melissa, there actually, yesterday was the deadline. They needed to provide us their case studies and their workbook reflections yesterday so that we could then give them their their certification. Give us time to process and give we have a Laura create an amazing rubric for us to give feedback. And so that was another important component of this. So while it is self paced, in order to get the certification, you did need to be able to deliver us your your final product by a certain time.

Melissa LaPointe [00:27:13]:
How did you manage as someone that's created programs in the past? And one of the challenges that personally I run into is I have, you know, this top down idea. I start to do a brain dump. And as I create content, I recognize how much how many gaps there are. So it becomes this content creating monster because, oh, I want them to know this, and I want them to know that. And maybe we should include this. And how can I squeeze that in there? Is that something you know, we open up this Pandora's box of knowledge that we so passionately want to share. And is that something that you ran into? And if so, how did you manage that?

Lindsay Vestal [00:27:55]:
Absolutely. I we had a few conversations about, like, one of the big topics I think that has a huge intersection with trauma informed care is pain science and and sensitization. But that's a huge endeavor all in itself. And so I think one of the things that helped us I think it was so helpful in that regard to work with a partner, because in those millions of voice notes that we have, it's that late night thought. What about this? We haven't included this. Where are we gonna include this? And then we could decide together. Does this fit? Is this necessary in this program? We're teaching. We really want folks what are our objectives here? What do we want people to walk away from? And that we had, like, a working document as we went about ideas.

Lindsay Vestal [00:28:56]:
And so every so often we would come back to the those ideas and see, okay, did that where did that end up fitting in? And does it need to fit in here? Or could it be something that we just leave and see if it comes up on a support call or in some of those more interactive questions that we have with our students or interactive times that we have with our students.

Lindsay Vestal [00:29:18]:
For me, it was an incredibly unique experience because as someone who's created over a dozen online courses, I've never collaborated on an online course with someone. So I've collaborated with Kelsey Matthias and Heidi Carpenter for the summit. I'm with Kristen Karnes now on the first case studies book for OTs in public health, but never an online course, which is which is my livelihood. Right? This is I make online courses to to pay the bills, and it was a really unique and liberating experience for me because of exactly what Lara just said in the sense of, oh my gosh. I wanna give them all just like we do as OTs in our treatment settings. Right? It's that idea of what are the 3 nuggets I can give my client today to make sure that they maintain intrinsic motivation and aren't overwhelmed. It's the same process with creating a course. You as you said, Melissa, you you wanna put everything in there.

Lindsay Vestal [00:30:13]:
You really wanna do right by your client, which is for me, occupational therapists. And so to be able to go, or I really wanna include this section on pain science. What do you think? And for her to be so reflective and really think about it and then get back to me, I felt this huge release and, energetically could move on even especially even if she said no. Because I knew she could see it from this overview, and I trusted her so much that that it was like, okay. Great. I can move on now. I'm not wrestling with this anymore. And that was a very unique gift for me given that I've never had that experience before.

Melissa LaPointe [00:30:50]:
How did you decide on like, was there an application process to ensure that all of the participants in your first cohort were at the same level or had a certain baseline level of knowledge? How did you approach that?

Lindsay Vestal [00:31:07]:
This was something that we wrestled with quite a bit. I'm so glad you asked that actually because it was something we went back and forth on. In terms of the skill level, I don't think that was something we were as concerned about. Like we really wanted to be mindful knowing that we were gonna get really seasoned pelvic health OTs that really wanted to start from scratch on building their understanding of the nervous system and trauma informed care processes. But we were also open to taking OTs that hadn't dipped their toe into pelvic health yet or were just getting started in it, knowing that this can be such a strong place to want to be a springboard into pelvic health as well. So that wasn't as big of a concern for us. I think the biggest thing that we were concerned about was the wellness of our participants, like knowing this was really intense content to go into, that we wanted to make sure we were being safe, that we were kind of screening folks that maybe might not be ready to dive in based on where they were in their own trauma healing processes. And so what we decided to do in lieu of an application process, which ultimately we decided, I think felt a little bit too, restrictive, like we really wanted to be open and accessible, we decided on a contract process.

Lindsay Vestal [00:32:48]:
So I we kind of leaned on some of my experiences with running group programs and mental health in the past and, some of the contracts we use there to to really ensure that we were clear and transparent about what our role is as facilitators, as educators, where our boundaries were in terms of not taking on this role of becoming a mental health provider. And then even being clear about what some signs might be around readiness and do I have the resources and the skills that I need in order to approach this? And in that contract, also giving some flexibility and freedom and emphasizing that from the get go, we would be talking about the importance of self care throughout the program. So really wanting to be transparent upfront and give folks a guideline or a tool for evaluating for themselves, is this something ready that I that I'm ready to launch into or not?

Lindsay Vestal [00:33:54]:
Yeah. I really love that you asked that question, and Laura answered it perfectly. The only thing I would add was while, yes, we weren't concerned about skill level or in terms of their public health experience, we did want them actively seeing clients regardless of their setting so that they had a place to practice their skills. Right? We didn't want this to be an academic practice. We really wanted them going to the clinic and trying these skills out. So that was that was the one requirement from a, you know, pragmatic or skill level standpoint.

Melissa LaPointe [00:34:25]:
This is a certification created by OTs targeting or geared towards OTs, but we all know what happens in terms of our unique ability to understand and teach around the biopsychosocial model and all the beautiful things OTs have to offer, which what I'm getting at, did you have people, professionals outside of the OT profession who expressed interest or who applied? And what's the plan? Because if they didn't come, they're going to.

Lindsay Vestal [00:35:02]:
We certainly had a lot of interest amongst physiotherapists that were keen to build their skill set. Certainly some of the Canadian physios that I'm connected with expressed a lot of interest, and and I think will join us at some point. And we did have 1 physio. We had Rebecca Seagraves join us for this round, which was pretty awesome to, have her go through it and give us her feedback on her experience with you too.

Lindsay Vestal [00:35:33]:
Yeah. And she was also our one of our faculty speakers. We had out of maybe 5 or 6 faculty members, I think 3 of them were very well known PTs. And then, yes, to be able to have amazing Rebecca Seageries be a faculty member and a student was incredibly special and unique.

Melissa LaPointe [00:35:53]:
Okay. So there is the option for people outside the OT profession, provided again, it sounds like you've been very transparent on the target audience for this program and the certification and how it's been the content that's gone into it.

Lindsay Vestal [00:36:07]:
Yeah. And I have to credit you, Melissa, for teaching me about bull's eye marketing. I remember listening to one of your courses. And one of the things I really struggled with was starting my OT practice was I wanna serve everybody all the time. I don't want to niche down and narrow in. And I think that certainly helped here. Right? We know that the people we are going to attract, our bull's eye audience, are gonna be OTs. Certainly, we're also going to attract folks that speak that language of other disciplines.

Lindsay Vestal [00:36:42]:
And, I think we were very clear from the get go that we were open to that and wanted to be mindful of that, in in how we promoted it, being mindful of of not saying OTs are the be all and end all and keeping it accessible to other disciplines as well.

Lindsay Vestal [00:37:02]:
Even in our language choices, you know, we've all been to those courses where they just talk about pelvic floor physical therapists, and we're kind of wait, wait, I'm over here and I'm an OT. You know? And so I think for us, just being very aware of inclusive language, which obviously is a trauma informed principle and just applying that to to our own work as well.

Melissa LaPointe [00:37:22]:
You had oh, gosh. I can't my timeline is getting so mixed up at this point. I wanna say September. You put a call out for and this may be faculty. It was guest speakers. So I had connected you with someone. And that topic list and full disclosure, I just went to try to find it, and I couldn't. But that topic list, like, it caught my attention because there were so many hot topics when you put a call out in your Facebook group.

Melissa LaPointe [00:37:53]:
So, Lindsay, it was in your Facebook group around. These are the topics. We're looking for guest speakers. If you're interested, apply, or if you know any anyone, apply. And the variety of topics and the even the titles that you used, I think for a lot of us, it's like, woah. This is going to be one awesome certification that they're creating. Can you speak to the I think it's the chicken or the egg. So can you speak to, first of all, the interest that you had when you put that call out for speakers? Did you have to do a lot of filtering through? Were the people who applied exactly the right people for the right fit? You know, how was that process for you in terms of having to say no to some people who are pretty freaking amazing? But also through the application process, did it create more ideas of, again, content or guest speakers or how you go about that? So can you both speak about that process?

Lindsay Vestal [00:38:53]:
Yeah. Actually, it's interesting. My brain's going to your previous question about how did we kind of narrow in on the content that we wanted to focus on, and so one of the ways we actually use that list of here are some things that people are asking about that people are wanting to know about, but pulls us in the direction of a specific trauma experience. Right? So like medical trauma, like birth trauma. We wanted to give them the foundations of understanding trauma in general in our core content, But that those additional ideas were so helpful in terms of where what are the guests who are the guest experts that we're looking for here that can take us further down this path and help our students kind of build on that foundational knowledge and understand those specific experiences of trauma. And we merge that with seeking feedback also from the audience about the topics that were of most interest to them. So we did end up going through, I would say, a very intentional process of picking those topics that we were wanting to, and and there were more. But we just we really had to kind of zero it in on the things that folks were most keen to dig deeper into, and then we did.

Lindsay Vestal [00:40:20]:
We did have to go through this process of connecting. We got quite a few quite a lot of interest, quite a few applications, and went through a pretty big process of connecting with different people, going through those applications, and discussing with each other, like, who who is going to be the right fit, for for this first round. And it I feel like those decisions came pretty easily though because I think this whole experience has been there's just been a lot of, synergy, I guess, with the right things happening at the right time. And so it was pretty it was the breadth of responses that we got that ticked all the boxes in terms of what we were looking for. It was pretty incredible. And the split we noticed after, it wasn't really a huge part of our decision making process in terms of, discipline, but we ended up with the split right down in the middle of 3 physios and 3 OTs, and that felt really synergistic to us as well.

Melissa LaPointe [00:41:35]:
Anything you wanna add to that, Lindsay?

Lindsay Vestal [00:41:38]:
One of the, I guess, considerations was that we we did record all the faculty, conversations. And so that's built in now for future cohorts to have that those rich conversations. So I think moving forward, it will be decision making process between Laura and I of saying, well, a, do we wanna invite any faculty members back? Would would they like to join us? Could that add some richness to a live cohort, or do we wanna diversify? You know? And so that's gonna be kind of the process moving forward. It's like they have access to these incredible content, which I just have to say our faculty knocked it out of the park each and every time. You know? And so it's like, okay. Moving forward, we don't wanna add for the sake of adding. So one of the things that Laura had mentioned about, like, these intentional lessons being bite sized and specific, I think that as course creators or curators, very much like a museum curator. And I think maybe in the beginning back in 2018, when I created OT pioneers for the first time, it was like, what can I throw in there? You know? Oh, more is better when actually it is not.

Lindsay Vestal [00:42:39]:
Right? It is about that curation of content at just the right amount, just like we do in our OT sessions. And so for me and for us, that will be a deep consideration of, okay, they have these gosh. Every faculty member spoke for 90 minutes. So whatever 6 times 90 is, they have the those that amount of content. And so we wanna be intentional and deliberate with what we bring in and and how much time we add to the course moving forward.

Melissa LaPointe [00:43:05]:
One question that I meant to ask, how often so in terms of frequency of cohorts, so how often do you plan on offering this certification?

Lindsay Vestal [00:43:18]:
Hot button topic. So we're gonna allow ourselves to have some some beautiful breath and with the processing, not only the feedback, the evaluations, the reflections that we have. So we have a document that in the moment, when we have a new idea, we're just kind of compiling that knowing and resting that it's there for us and not getting too obsessive about it now. Resting that it's there for us and not getting too obsessive about it now. And so I think we're gonna do a debrief after graduation to be able to process that. Okay. What's actionable here? What are we going to change? What are we gonna implement? Give ourselves some space to make those changes, and then decide the frequency and and all of that. So we don't have an answer for you right now.

Lindsay Vestal [00:44:00]:
Is it gonna be once a year? Is it gonna be twice a year? Is there gonna be an in person component? These are all the things that we're we're considering. And so, hopefully, by the time your listeners hear this, we'll have some more direction to share.

Melissa LaPointe [00:44:12]:
Thank you for your transparency and also for the consideration that you're putting into this. I think it's beautiful how you both are practicing what you preach in terms of your boundaries and in terms of acknowledging the work that goes into this work. And, you know, you're not, like, to be pushing out that certification when, again, you've spoke of you know, you've spoken about that in terms of the inner work that happens with this. So, yeah, kudos to both of you for really putting that front and center in terms of how you are rolling out the certification. So, yeah, thank you for that answer. Did you so I have 2 more questions as we wrap this up. So the first question, it took roughly 18 months from point of conception through to graduation. Is that the timeline you both anticipated? Is that far off the timeline? Where were we in terms of, you know, if I would have talked to you 18 months ago, how long did you anticipate this the

Lindsay Vestal [00:45:25]:
intention of not the intention of not pushing ourselves to run it if we didn't get enough interest first time around. We had a number in mind, and if we bought a certain number of participants, we would go ahead with it. And we didn't quite reach that number, but I think we learned so much in that process about what people needed and wanted, that it made it run so much more smoothly and gave us so much more space to make it so much more impactful that I'm really grateful that it didn't run that first time around. So I would say, probably, initially, we were both so excited, and we really just wanted to get going and get it out there. But I am so glad that it ended up taking that we put 18 months of work and intention it was and how they appreciated so much our how we were showing up to it and how we were practicing what we preach throughout too.

Lindsay Vestal [00:46:45]:
What I'd love to add to that is what we had done was we hosted a Zoom call for anyone interested. You know, we had we had hundreds of people on the list who signed up for it, because we then sent out the replay if they weren't able to join live. And that call was so paramount in terms of aging receptivity, giving actually, the idea for the faculty members came from that call. 1 of the participants asked, like, are you are we gonna be hearing more from just you and Laura? Like, we love you. We wanna hear from you. But, you know, are you gonna be bringing in medical gaslighting topics, you know, body sized gender care, all of these rich topics. And so, actually, they co created it with us. You know? They they provided us that, and and I never experienced that before nor did I anticipate it.

Lindsay Vestal [00:47:35]:
And so that conversation was so rich, and I'm so grateful for the people that came to that call. I'm sure at least half of those people ended up joining us for the real launch, but that was a beautiful cocreation that I'm not even sure they they knew. But they just gave us so much to reflect on that, yes, made the next 18 months even better.

Melissa LaPointe [00:47:54]:
Fabulous. Final question. And so to my audience members, I haven't prepped, Lindsay and Laura with any of these questions ahead of time. This is very much conversational where I'm keeping them on their toes with these questions. And you guys are doing a great job. So my last question, now that we are about to wrap up on this, both the episode and the certification, I would like you each and if you need a moment, we can give you a moment. But I would like to hear from each of you what is one aspect component experience. What is one thing that you're like, heck, yeah.

Melissa LaPointe [00:48:33]:
We're keeping about this certification, and what is one thing that you are considering changing or letting go?

Lindsay Vestal [00:48:50]:
I have my oh, sorry. You go, Lindsey.

Lindsay Vestal [00:48:53]:
Okay. I'm just gonna speak off the cuff. I know that if I reflect on it, I'm going to come up with a 1,000 more. But just right off the bat, Melissa, one thing it's hard to pick the one thing, but one thing that's coming to mind right now that that I want to keep is definitely the ongoing support calls that are live because the space that's held during those calls, is just incredible. You know, I'm in my mind, I'm thinking about frequency. Do we do more? You know, like, because that that was just when we were able to get together in person, we kind of knew each other already. And so those hugs felt like a reunion, not an introduction. You know? So that was really special.

Lindsay Vestal [00:49:36]:
At the same time, something that we're considering not keeping is actually, oddly enough, that in person component. It is it is an extra cost. Right? It's it's it's hotels, it's food, it's travel, and, you know, we're holding it in this beautiful place called Sedona, Arizona, which doesn't have an international airport. So people have to fly into Phoenix, rent a car, drive 2 or 3 hours to get to this location. And so just thinking about the time and the and and the investment financially, it's a lot. And this is going to be part of a larger certification that we're rolling out for occupational therapist to really lean into their expertise from the biopsychosocial perspective. So if they're going to get this larger certification, we need to be really intentional about that experience and all of the investment, emotional, temporal, you know, monetary that goes into it. So as much as, you know, I can't imagine this experience without the in person component, there's so many pros and cons there to consider.

Lindsay Vestal [00:50:43]:
And so I'll just leave it there. That's probably one of the things that we're gonna have hours and hours and hours of discussion about before we reach some sort of conclusion that at the end will ultimately serve the most OTs in the best richest way possible.

Lindsay Vestal [00:50:59]:
Yeah. I was my brain was going in the exact same direction, I have to say. I think, for me, the the support calls, the opportunity to integrate in some capacity is a nonnegotiable. And and like Lindsay said, one of the things that I'm thinking about is of letting go of, in addition to those hour long conversations we're gonna have about the pros and cons of the the retreat and making it mandatory versus maybe making it more, an optional piece. But perhaps in the support calls, how can we give some of that gold of what folks are getting from the retreat, in them? So how can we maybe amplify those even further to allow for some of that magic that happened at the retreat? And maybe it is, like, we now have just such those lovely guest expert lectures that all of our cohorts are gonna be able to offer. So as Lindsay said, more isn't always better. So do we forego, and not have a lot of additional extra guest speakers at future cohorts and have more of that virtual space for integration. And, those are the things my brain is mulling over right now.

Melissa LaPointe [00:52:35]:
Great answers. Thank you both for showing up. You know? Thank you for, like, showing up, of course, for today's episode. I appreciate that. But thank you both for showing up in the work that you're doing. And I think so often we forget as visionaries, as pioneers, as often the first ones doing things because we surround ourselves with like minded people that we forget to acknowledge how much courage it takes to show up on that level. And both of you have been doing it for many years now. So I applaud you, and you are both doing it in such a way.

Melissa LaPointe [00:53:13]:
I really admire your transparency and, you know, just your ability to share the pros and the cons, the positives, the challenges, the roadblocks. This is not all rainbows and unicorns. And I think, again, in terms of your professional personas, in terms of, you know, how you're showing up on social media, how you're showing up for your respective audiences, you bring you both bring that to the table, and people appreciate that. It's something that we really need to hear. We really need to see. So, yeah, kudos to both of you. And I know I'm really happy you're in my circle. Yeah.

Melissa LaPointe [00:53:53]:
So thank you for showing up.

Lindsay Vestal [00:53:55]:
It's mutual, Melissa. Thank you so much for having us.

Melissa LaPointe [00:53:59]:
Alright. Take care, guys.