1 Corinthians Discussion | Chapter 8 | Kayce, Caleb, Mike, & Shaun

We talk through 1 Corinthians 8 and the “food sacrificed to idols” question to uncover a bigger issue: how we use Christian freedom without harming someone else’s faith. We wrestle with the tension between knowledge and love, and we land on a simple challenge to choose connection, humility, and other-centered decisions. 
• background on Corinth’s temples, sacrifices, and marketplace meat 
• why newer believers may feel spiritually uneasy about certain environments 
• “knowledge puffs up, but love builds up” as a filter for motives 
• modern “idol meat” examples like media, alcohol, social influence, and habits 
• honoring different convictions without trying to win every argument 
• connection over correction as the path to real discipleship 
• refusing to become a stumbling block that leads someone back to bondage 
• moving from rule-keeping to desire-driven love for God and people 
• helping people belong and bear fruit before demanding they look finished

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Transcript

Welcome And The Idol Meat Question

SPEAKER_04 0:13

Well, here we are in chapter seven of First Corinthians. Oh, sorry, chapter eight. That's right. That was uh last week. Chapter eight, thank Mike Casey. I am so excited about our guest today here on the podcast. Uh you know, I was pumped that he was willing to uh he was with us for VBS, he was with us for One Life, but uh we couldn't get both of them, but we got the main character. I didn't get to see this character at uh One Life Camp, but Sir Whistleton is with us here on the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

And so thanks, coach, for bringing me in here today. I was real happy to get the invite, you know. Yeah, let's go.

SPEAKER_04 0:48

And so uh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

Well how you know they didn't bring me to VBS to you know to teach anything. They didn't bring me to teach the Bible, but I felt like it was important that the kids got a little Bible knowledge each morning, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

So, you know, whenever I was reading this, you know, as real quick, it just came to me in my sleep. We know you can't. I can't be here long, okay. But uh, okay, so you know, Paul, you know, he was talking about this this idle meat, right? And when I was thinking about this, Sir Whistleton has never ate any kind of idle meat in his life, okay? Oh wow. All the meat that he eats, it moves, you know? Chicken, beef, the angus, the delicious stuff, duck. My lips have never touched idle meat in my life. I eat nothing but meat that moves. Gotcha. And so when I was reading this, I couldn't understand anything about idle meat. So that's all I had for the day for the blessings, okay?

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Like the vegan meat out. Not about it. Um, meat that moves.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

Uh Pastor Mike, maybe you could help us, you know, the whole audience understand what's happening here in uh in the Corinthian church in regards to uh the question. We're dealing with a lot of questions now. Um I feel so honored that Sir Wesselton was on our podcast today.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

I'm messed up for the rest of this podcast.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so uh, yep, absolutely.

Corinth Temples And Marketplace Meat

SPEAKER_04 2:10

Um but uh so what we've got going on is they the Christians have written Paul and they're asking all these questions. And one of the questions we see in verse one in chapter eight is should we eat meat uh that's been uh given to or uh been through the process of idol worship? And so for I I don't know that any of us understand this, and Sir Worcester obviously doesn't either, but uh in regards to like I don't think any of us in modern day world is dealing with the question of eating idol meat. And so uh maybe you can give us a little backstory about what this is all about.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Well, yeah, I mean you you know Corinth was was filled with all of these temples because they were polytheistic. There's all these different gods. That's why you even refers to you know what god or gods where you you know and so people like were so what what if we because what they would do is they would you know offer this meat in the temples as you know as part of their worship, and then they with the meat they would go out and actually have street vendors be selling meat on the street for you know people to buy. And so the Corinthians were like, how what do we deal with this? How we you know, this is where we're gonna buy meat, or this is where we're gonna get food, and what do we do if we intentionally buy food that's been offered to idols and everything? How are we gonna deal with this? And and so that's part primarily what Paul is addressed.

SPEAKER_04 3:33

Yeah, so you've got all these new believers, all of these Christians, you know, all those kind of things. And we'll read verses two through uh for the first three verses, kind of just the whole give us a big broader picture or the understanding of where we're going. But um, but basically, like if you're gonna go to the market, you're there's a good chance because like from what do I from what my brain understands is that like if I was going to bring a sacrifice as an individual for worship, for idol worship to uh appease the gods, um, I I would give it to the priest, and the priest would do the ceremony. If there was anything left over, like there was broken up into thirds, and if it was left over, then I would get some that was left over, and the priest would get some that's left over. And obviously, if you can imagine if you're a priest and you're doing uh a multiple of these uh different ceremonies, uh you you potentially have a lot of meat at the end of the day, right? And so you you probably don't have use for it in regards to your family. So you're gonna take it to the market and you're gonna sell it. Uh and people are gonna come and they're gonna I even heard some guys talk about like at these temple markets, there was like restaurant restaurants. It's like you know, walking up the Chick-fil-A getting a chicken sandwich, and you're like, uh, has that been like offered to a god before I like take a bite of it? And this is the this is what they're struggling with because they're trying to separate themselves from culture yet at the same time. How do I am I vegetarian now? Like, or what do I do? And so it's kind of where we're at.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

I'm not really sure how to exactly ask this, but Caleb, was it? When did you get here? Oh, no. It's good to have you here. Um There is some confusion around who's who, by the way. But did the people think that like the meat had some kind of like like if I'm eating this, I'm taking into my body something that's like impure?

SPEAKER_04 5:20

Yeah. Well, because what from what I understand, like just studying background wise, is that they actually thought this meat had like because they they like demonic things would just be around and it would be in their food also. And so they had to give it to uh uh the um to do the ceremony uh in regards for it to be cleansed, meaning that this God would enter that meat to clean it so that when it entered their body, then they weren't having demons. So if you if that's what you grew up learning, you know, if that's what you're growing up understanding, and then you're going to the temple market because it's cheaper to buy at Aldi than it is to buy it at Costco. You know what I mean? You got a temple market and then you have like just a city market, you know what I'm saying? And so like I'm going to the temple market, you know, to buy this stuff. Then I'm thinking, wait a second, if I'm eating that meat, does that mean that God like dwells in me? Dwells in me? Yeah. You know? To which I think in verse uh verses, you know, where we're at, you can you read verses one through three for us real quick, Casey?

Knowledge Puffs Up Love Builds

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Yep. Now about food sacrificed to idols, we know that we all possess knowledge, but knowledge puffs up while love builds up. Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. But whoever loves God is known by God.

SPEAKER_04 6:32

And so basically, what Paul is saying to these believers that have the gift of knowledge or have knowledge about this situation, because he's gonna go on later on in verse chapter eight and talk about how uh guys, there's idols are not real. Like, and some Christians understand that. They're like, oh, we're we're at the place where like, oh, there's nothing. There's nothing, there's no they're not real, like it's fake, it's made up, it's not real. But there's other Christians who are like, wait a second, I don't I'm new in this, I don't know how I should handle this. And Paul's basically communicating like there's the weaker, not in a negative terminology, there's the weaker that don't really know how to function. Uh the two separation of these of these worlds, and the mature more knowledgeable mature Christians need to take that in consideration.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

I think for a time when you are a new believer, there are things you need to step away from. This verse actually confused me. I looked into it when he's like, This isn't real, it's not real. And I'm like, wait though, idol worship and demons are real. So there's a lot through the Old Testament, you're reading, like, oh, they're worshiping Molech or Dagan, Astra. I'm like, those are real demons that are still worshiped today. And there's things you can partake in or not. But when we learn there's no power over us in it, like there are some things you should, hey, you should probably stop seeing a poem reader. That's not good for you. You know, like there's no enlightenment I'm gonna get that's like, oh, I can go to a psychic now because I'm mature. But so there are some things. But in this, we know, no, these this pagan worship doesn't have any power over me. But if there's someone who just left pagan worship and they're new to following Christ, and they're like, well, when I used to go and have a sip of that or go into that atmosphere, it was because I was actually spiritually engaging too. So I feel like as mature believers, there's there are things that won't necessarily drag us back into our old ways anymore because we're freed from it, we have a greater understanding. But then if you're a newer believer, there could be things that you need to be far away from for a time.

SPEAKER_04 8:36

Yeah. Yeah. So good.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

As you strengthen.

SPEAKER_04 8:39

And does anybody have like any practical illustrations of how this

Modern Idols And Everyday Gray Areas

SPEAKER_04 8:42

would apply? Like, you know, not that I want to get away from just the the text, but like how does this look like? Because I mean, when you're reading this, you're like, oh, okay, cool, this makes sense in their culture, but it does not even how is it relatable to my culture?

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Well, I think you know, I think you're bringing it into today's context, you know, the the idols might be, you know. Different form of you know, something that you whether it's on social media or something like that, something you begin to look at that becomes a greater influence in your life than the word of God or the spirit of God. And that that's so easy today in today's culture we don't realize how much we're allowing things to influence us and uh become really prevalent or dominant, you know, in our lives. Uh that's one of the things I thought of is when you're talking about idols, you know, people set up all kinds of things and people that have a greater influence of you know your spiritual formation in your life than what the Bible or Jesus has. Um I see that all the time, you know, you hear it all the time. One of the things I tell pastors is I said you've got to realize that that your, you know, your your biggest competitors isn't the church down the street, it's the fifty different podcasts that people are listening to during the week that are telling them 50 different things. You know, and how those can become idols to us, really. Um I have, you know, I listen to podcasts, not that you can't do that, but I'm very careful that I just don't listen to podcasts. I'm also gonna read my Bible, I'm gonna pray, I'm gonna try to hear, you know, from the Lord about things rather than just letting that become an influence. And you know, and here in 1 Corinthians 8 or all really through the the whole letters of you know, Paul's writing to them, and he says, you've got to be careful of what you let become the predominant influences in your life, and because you can get all messed up and what is and what isn't proper and all of that, you know. Um you guys have been around me, you probably heard me say this, but I heard this great advice years ago. It says you're most influenced by the last person you talk to, so make sure the last person you talk to is Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 10:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

That's good. You know, not some podcast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:03

That's so good. Yeah, and I mean, we're not gonna write letter a Paul the we're not gonna write a.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

We are doing a podcast.

SPEAKER_04 11:10

We're not gonna write a letter to Paul like saying, you know, how should we handle food? But we would we might let write a letter to Paul say, how should we handle in the church alcohol? Yeah. How should we handle the way we dress? How should we handle uh the music we listen to? Gossip or how do we handle gossip? How do we handle um certain movies that we're watching? How do we handle like what podcasts we're listening to and not listening to? You know what I mean? Like those kind of things. And um, you know, so like these are the the gray areas that Paul's talking about, um, you know, uh in regards to how do we navigate these gray areas in the body of Christ without harming each other kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

And so when I moved back home to Mary Hayden from college, I worked at an ice cream. She finally said yes, poor kid. For real. It was a story. It was a long story.

SPEAKER_04 12:01

Different podcast.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

No, that's fine.

SPEAKER_04 12:04

We don't need too much.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Uh but I worked at an ice cream shop in my little hometown, and I worked with a girl who um her parents were pastors in our town at a church that had stricter traditions than I was raised with. And they believe that women should wear skirts. And I I didn't, my goal was not to argue with her that I feel freed from. Like I don't think I'm living in sin, not wearing skirts every day. But I also, when I was scheduled to work with her, I would dress different. Like sometimes I wear longer, like longer pants or jeans or whatever. I didn't want to just, we had great Bible conversations. Like that family, they love the Lord, they know the word. And I love the Lord and the Word too, but I just had a different conviction, I guess, on wearing pants. And so anyway, but I feel like my goal, my purpose, my job is not to go convince her that she's freed from wearing skirts. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 13:01

So I didn't need to like what do you think would have happened, like Casey, if you would have taken the stance of, you know, um trying to pursue or yeah, with knowledge, opening the word of God and explaining like what would have why why not that direction? What could have taken place?

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Aaron Powell Well, I feel like we wouldn't have had other great conversations about the Bible. I also would never want to put her in a place of like second guessing or feeling bitter towards her faith community that she's involved in and plugged into. So that's like I think sometimes when I meet friends that are a part of different faith traditions, like young Casey would have wanted to argue all of our differences, like the way you observe communion or the way you do this, or the way whatever, just anything that I see a little bit differently. But now it's like you should plug into your faith community. I like I wouldn't have wanted to trip her up to not have a good relationship. I don't think I would have. She's very strong in her faith. She probably thinks I was a heathen. Sure. But but I think I would have missed out on really good conversations and potentially put a wedge between her and her community. That you know is not my place to do.

unknown 14:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:11

Yeah, we can't allow our the freedoms that we have, the liberties that we have in Christ, we can't allow them uh to I mean, create sinful, uh destructive environments in the body of Christ. Right. And so uh, you know, kind of things because I think that like I mean, how do you what do you in regards to uh us as believers now, how does this fit in in regards to conviction? Like, I mean, I know it just the four of us could share how different our convictions are in regards to how we think and what we think and all those kind of things. Um, you know, uh, and how do we handle that, you know, as as cre I mean, let's go to the obviously go to the text real

Convictions Without Creating Wedges

SPEAKER_04 14:49

quick. Let me ask you a few things here. So it says in verse uh the beginning of verse one, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. What is what does that mean? Puffs up, builds up. Knowledge puffs up uh because we don't want to see, I mean, knowledge is not a bad thing, it's a fruit of the spirit, right? Like it's a fruit of the spirit. But as we'll see later on, you know, Pastor talking about later on, like you can have fruits of the spirit and just puff yourself up and do no building up at all. But what is it, what is puffing up look like versus building up?

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Well, I like I really like knowledge. Like I like being in the weeds, I like the context, like I think you actually have the spiritual gift of knowledge, correct? If I remember correctly, when you were that if that was what this was talking about, or if it meant just like head knowledge, like you've learned all these things. So I didn't know how to connect the two. Yes, like so gift of knowledge, everyone I used to call it God's secrets. Actually, you were the one who I was telling you about it, and you were like, Casey, that's the gift of knowledge from the Holy Spirit. I was like, what?

SPEAKER_04 16:00

We're like, don't keep that to yourself. We need to hear that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Yeah, I used to call it God's secrets, where just all of a sudden I would think something about someone or a thing, or be like, I feel like someone here is thinking this. And then I would say it and it'd be confirmed. I'm like, whoa, wow, secret that I otherwise I wouldn't have known. Um But what was I saying about that?

SPEAKER_04 16:21

Well, I don't know. Knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Oh, knowledge. I like digging up the nuggets in the Bible that maybe you don't see at face value, like, oh, the context, or it was this year, they were talking to this group of people. And I think that um one time I feel like God just kind of put the phrase in my mind, it was, I love the Bible more than I love God. Like sometimes I find this studying the Bible more entertaining than just knowing and loving Jesus for who he is. And so I've been on like a year and a half journey of not digging up the knowledge and just spending time with the Lord and talking about scripture with friends and stuff and not trying to lord information because it's fun to know the Hayden makes fun of me, it's really embarrassing. He'll say, Your word is actually, and I hate that. He's actually actually oh, actually, did you know that that I'm like, I don't want to be the actually person. But it's fun for me to like learn what's going on in the story. But I think ultimately when we love the person we're talking to, the goal isn't to share with them all this insight or like, oh, you didn't know this, but I know this. The goal is to connect them to Jesus and not be smarter. The goal isn't to know more things.

SPEAKER_04 17:39

Right. Yeah, it's this idea that like if you're if we're walking in knowledge without love, we're producing pr pride.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Right.

SPEAKER_04 17:48

Right. And in that, like we're gonna we're gonna harm us and other people.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

And so it's not fun to talk to an I I know everything person.

SPEAKER_04 17:57

No.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

That's very easy to talk to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:00

Yeah, you want to walk away quickly.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah, it's like, oh, okay, I yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:04

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

I think for me is because I've always been I love knowledge. And I realized that I had to be careful with that because I found myself gaining knowledge to impress people. Really, rather than I think what Paul's addressing here is knowledge is good if you want to bless people. That's good. Oh, that is good. And so I really had to, you know, uh change my you know, my ideology and my my drive behind knowledge was not just to impress people, but to have something to be able to impress and help people with. And I think that's part of what he's trying to get through here today in this chapter is you can have knowledge, but what do you what what's your intention behind it? What's your motivation behind it?

SPEAKER_03 19:00

One thing that I saw with what I've starting to kind of learn with knowledge and love is that whenever like say like a Sunday morning word, like we a sermon, like if it's really bathed in love and it's it's felt in love, love like moves the heart. So like I I can I can like feel that. It makes me like you're the love you're sharing is like moving me. If Pastor Mike goes up there and shares a bunch of knowledge, I might say, like, okay, like, yeah, those are some good words he said, but it might not move me to love the way that, you know, like the way that it should or if a word that comes from love, comes from the heart. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

It's different than just a great like Yeah, because knowledge can give you information, love will give you transformation. Yes. You know, that's the difference, I think.

SPEAKER_04 19:47

I listen I listen, sorry, I listened to uh a guy that was talking to like a a room full of theologians, like scholars, you know, that like their job is to teach the Bible. And he talked about like when you write a sermon, like when you're process uh whatever, sermon talk, whatever, because they're not just preaching at churches, you know, they're teaching pastors, you know. And they're like when you when you get up and teach, you know, are you attempting to just clearly communicate the words that are in the book, which is good and important and very important, has to be taken very seriously. And oh and also are you thinking about the people seeing the faces that you're communicating it to? Because if you're just if you're just in the these words, right? Like and you're not also trying to like what you just talked about, Caleb, not you're not also not also seeing the hearts and faces of people. You're gonna you're not gonna come with knowledge and love. You're only gonna come with knowledge, and it's gonna be seen a different way, and people are gonna walk out like not everyone, but like people are gonna walk out like what just happened, you know, kind of thing. It was really, really insightful.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

And so well, I think there's sometimes that the background research, the study brings the story either nearer than it was. If you had questions, you're like, oh, well, the reason this isn't making sense to us is because this was like Middle Eastern or whatever. But then there's other times that it kind of doesn't matter. It's just fun to know.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Not that it okay, I don't believe that it always doesn't matter. I I think most of the time it matters. But when you're like ministering, so I think what I've started asking the God to reveal to me is who does this information matter or not? Because if this matters to the way I serve and minister to my team or my kids, then like give me interest on the topic. I do want to learn more. But if it's just sort of interesting reading, some like learn to put that there and not feel like I have to share that information with everyone I come in contact to.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:45

Yeah. The the one of the big differences between Shelley and I is she loves words. I love people. Like she's a words person, I'm a people person. And uh, you know, she anytime I teach, my wife usually Is in the thick of it with me. Like we I love studying with her. And uh we've done that since college. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, not all the time, it just depends on our schedules, but like, especially now that my kids are getting older, she's able to get back into that that rhythm with me. And uh it's so funny because she'll be like, Why in the world are you so stressed out? Well, I'm I'm attempting to write a message because I'm seeing people, right? Like she's a communicating information because she's seeing words. You know what I mean? Like so not no, she gets the I'm not like accusing of her just being knowledge and me just being love. I'm not trying that's not what I'm trying to get across. But like, you know, it's it's in if we would both say this, like it's you might know the the word, you might you might know the message, but like communicating that in a way and understanding the heart of what's going on in somebody else's life, you know, is a it's a crucial part of how we're navigating. So like even if you're in the office, you know, and you're handling another Christian like I have this situation not in this office, but in my other part-time job, my bus office, you know, supposedly uh and I'm dealing with a believer, right? Like, and um she comes across very uh letter of the law, legalistic, you know, kind of deal. And um, and she misses the heart of what's going on around her. I'm like, man, like she's there's potential a lot of damage that's taking place here. And and so, but at the same time, like it would be easy for me to her, like to me, just to write her off and not deal with it. But I'm like, you know what, Lord, help me to see her, help me to see what's going on in her life, why she's approaching the things the way she's approaching what's going on in this situation, so that I can minister it with her and help her get to where she needs to be, uh, not just be like, You're crazy, lady, stop talking. You know what I mean? Like you're damaging the body of Christ, you know, kind of thing. And I think you said it earlier, uh, Casey, but didn't say it this necessarily, but you said something about connection and correction.

Connection Over Correction In Ministry

SPEAKER_04 24:00

Oh, yeah. And uh which is such a powerful statement. And so I don't know if you remember that statement or not.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Yeah. Or why you said it. But the year we so when I was, when Hayden and I were doing youth ministry, like fresh out of Bible college, I wasn't really concerned with like walking closely through little situations with them. I wanted them to know a bunch of stuff. So I wanted to make little apologists everywhere. And so like simple things like, oh, my boyfriend broke up with me. I was like, who cares? That's not kingdom. Move on. I was not loving or present through a lot of things. And I wish that I would have been. But years, like eight years later, the first time I went to team camp with you guys, Caleb, I had this, like the Lord immediately told me, connection over correction. And I just was thinking, I'm not these girls' mom. I'm not even their youth pastor, I'm not even a youth leader. I don't even come to youth on Sunday. So I was like, I'm gonna connect with them. I'm not gonna correct anything unless someone's in danger. And so, whereas youth pastor Casey wasn't like this, that first year at teen camp, I'm up till 2:30 in the morning. Like, and then what did she say? And like, what did you text back? Well, which one? What did he do then? It I was just in it. I wanted to hear the draw. Because I wanted to know, I wanted them to know they could come and tell me stuff. And then once they bring stuff to me, we can talk through. Now I have a connection with them and they want to talk to me about their breakup they're having. Then later I can tell them it's stupid. But initially, you don't tell people it's stupid right up first, you know. I don't say that. I've never told a little girl that it was stupid. They got it.

SPEAKER_04 25:34

Well, I mean, what which everybody in this room knows this, but like it's a good reminder that ministry flows best in the context of relationship.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Right. Not in the context of information.

SPEAKER_04 25:44

Not in the context of information. You know, like the information's important because at some point, like they need to be able to come to you when now that they trust you, and then get the right information to move forward, you know. But if you're just throwing information, like Caleb had alluded to a little bit in the beginning, like it's like, you know, it's almost like is this where people say, you know, like, man, that he's he's so preachy. Like, I wish he'd stop preaching at us. You know what I'm saying? Like uh that that phrase when you go to church and you're listening to a pastor and you're like, oh my gosh, like he's pointing his finger all the time. You know what I mean? Like, is it because of more information? I'm asking a question, honestly, uh uh without the idea of the context of of connection and relationship and love and seeing people's face and where they're at, so to speak.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

Yeah. It can it can really get um it can really get to like what case in regards to like just behavior management. If you guys are just behaving look good, it would really make me look good.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Yes, you don't look good.

SPEAKER_03 26:38

Now I'm mad.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yes. Or I feel like I failed. Like my identity is thrown off because you're not looking good.

SPEAKER_03 26:45

Yeah. So when you're trying to manage 100 plus kids at camp and you're on always with the boys and now you're behavior management, and all of a sudden you dislike everybody because no one's behaving, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:55

So this is not from personal experience, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:58

Yeah. So nobody knows that like you love them because you're just trying to watch behavior. So you there's like a fine line of you know, discipline and connection and love. And you know it's gotta be rooted in love. They gotta know you love you first. If they don't know they love you, they'll never come to you.

SPEAKER_04 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

So it has to has to start with love.

SPEAKER_04 27:14

But I mean, I've seen this in my own. I mean, obviously my son's eighteen, we're getting ready to send him off, and I've seen this in my own. I've seen that transition in my own relationship with my son is when we were at places where it was correction and connection, and you know, I mean, we were leading with correction. I mean, there was connection always, obviously. But like there it seemed like when he was younger, it was just like, you know, like stop, start, stop, start, you know what I mean? Like kind of things as they get older, like you have to adjust to that, you know. And what I have found is that like what I what is what is so enjoyable is being able to take the time and work through relationship so that then you have an opportunity for correction. And I think most people don't want, they don't want to take the time, the hard work of working with someone and understanding backstory and getting to the place where it's like, let me understand why you're I mean, if we like you said, when we understand the backstory like Pastor Mike just described of the first Corinthians, it makes sense why we're dealing with these situations. And if if we, those of us that are have knowledge or are we already walking in some freedoms that other people aren't, if we're willing to understand backstory, uh, we're gonna get a lot further, a lot faster. You know what I mean? It's gonna make more sense.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:29

And so but it's important that everyone's crossing the line, right? Yeah. Yes, everybody's finishing. Everybody's holding hands. Everybody's holding hands. And so, you know, kind of thing that we're we're bringing everybody along, and uh, you know, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

And so, but I thought of a funny, I don't know if this is gonna apply completely. This just popped in my head, it might be entertaining to share. There was a guy I went to Bible college with who worked at Victoria's Secret, the man did, and we were like interesting story. Tell us more. The guy who it was was super flirty already. So we were like, of course he is. And he told people it was his ministry because he's like, I used to battle with lust and stuff like that. And so he said that it was like his ministry to work there.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

And we were boy needs some correction. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

We were all like God called me to Victoria's secret. Yeah, I know. None of us were buying it. We were like, Yeah, that's not right.

SPEAKER_04 29:25

I wonder how that handled his future wife, handled that like started dating. I'm sure she was like, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

I'll give an update next week. No, but I think like there could be a time you hear about people doing street ministry, like to prostitutes and stuff like that. There might be someone who cannot do that.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

You cannot, you might be called to missions or street ministering. There might be places you are not able to go minister, even though yes, you are God is calling you to minister and stuff, but like just not yet. You can't you can't be around that yet. Yeah, or maybe ever. Like there might be areas you can't go serve in or be a part of or be free to partake in ever. There could be things you based on past struggles or your testimony or whatever it is, there could be things that you can't ever. I don't think any men should be working in Victorian.

SPEAKER_04 30:14

No.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Well, and that's what Paul is addressing. What do you what are you gonna do that's gonna cause somebody else to stumble? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

You know?

SPEAKER_03 30:22

That could be as simple as you having a friend over to watch a movie, knowing their past, and saying, no, we'll never watch this movie in this house because I know my friend.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Simple as that. Simple as that.

SPEAKER_04 30:33

Simple as that. Absolutely. We're not talking about big things here. Like pay attention. Yes, simple things. I mean, obviously, we had certain standards, like in regards to what our kids could watch. And then like that was I remember like Fernando, I was like, Dad, I'm so nervous. I don't know what to do. Like, I'm gonna go into someone's house. I'm like, honey, like it's okay, like just communicate, or you don't have to go. You know what I mean? But like, how do you you know what I mean? But like, is it worth losing a friend or not having somebody around that's a part of the body of Christ? Because they might not their conscious might say something different to them that your conscience is saying to you.

Refusing To Be A Stumbling Block

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:05

Paul, what did you what was the where was it? What uh verse 13, read verse 13 for us.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

Yeah, this is about how how much Paul loved his people, but he said, Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:18

So he's using pretty emphatics.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

So that might cause them to fall again. Yeah. The extremity of the thing. I'll go to this extreme for someone else.

SPEAKER_04 31:26

You know what that says to me? If I'm if I'm if Paul's like a mentor in my life, whatever Paul says for me to do, I'm gonna do. And it has nothing to do with knowledge. It has everything to do with the fact the way that Paul is loving me. He loves me so much that, hey Sean, listen, I know that your conscience is telling that you can't eat meat, so I'm not gonna eat it either. We're we're gonna get there together.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 31:48

Like that's uh that's just an unbelievable thought. Like, who who reje rejects that kind of love?

unknown 31:55

Right.

SPEAKER_04 31:56

Nobody. Nobody's not like nobody rejects that kind of love.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

It's not that he's just concerned about them being uncomfortable, he's concerned about them falling and missing out on eternity with Christ. So when someone sees that you're willing to be in convenience for something, you're willing to die for something, like I actually believe in eternity. I think there's a lot of Christians that well, I guess okay, I'm not because it some of us say we believe in eternity, it doesn't really seem like it. You know, I've had people ask me just different decisions we've made for our kids who are very little already. Well, aren't you afraid they're gonna miss out on, or aren't you gonna afraid they're not gonna be able to? And I'm like, the only thing I would be afraid that they miss out on heaven. Like that's it for me. So yeah, they might miss out on some earthly things, but like their eternal soul is more important to me. So yes, this is hard. And yes, this is kind of awkward to do it this way. But there's certain things that I feel like are more important now. Yeah, we might miss out right now. And Paul's like, I might miss out on a steak sometime. Yeah, but I'm more concerned with getting this body of Christ to Christ.

SPEAKER_04 33:01

Yeah. Well, verse 90 said, but be careful that this right of yours in no way becomes a stumbling block to the weak.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:10

Like so, Paul's like, Hey, me eating a steak could be a problem for Caleb. I'm not eating the steak.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:15

Because I want Caleb to be with me in eternity.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:18

And if I eat that steak, there's a chance he's walking away from his faith. No big deal here. No steak for me. Bring out the carrots.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:25

You know, like that's love.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:28

In its greatest form. You know, like, but this is exactly what Jesus, this is what Jesus this is what Jesus does for us. He didn't motivate us by words of knowledge. He motivated us. We're we we've come to him because we see his love towards us and what he's done for us. Uh, you know, and uh, I mean, I think that the statement you guys have heard is that Jesus didn't come to this world to be right, he came to be followed.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:50

You know, like he could have came and just said all the right things. These are the rules, follow them, be with me. Yeah. That's not true.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

And he didn't actually correct as much as I wanted him to when I was reading through the gospels recently. I was like, I feel like he could have spoken up on a couple of these things, but it's it's interesting. He didn't just like correct everything. I feel like when we encounter a new believer, or maybe just someone that maybe we've been walking with the Lord longer. We want to make a list of their sins in order of severity, on our opinion. Like this one's worse, so I'll put that at the top and work through. But God may be working on pride in them. Like I see this one thing, like you definitely shouldn't be doing that. And God's like, Yeah, we're working on their attitude today. Like you're not so just always being led by the Holy Spirit, like what people need from you, what they need to hear, what they're able to receive.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Stuff like that. I think part of that, Casey, too, is Jesus was trying to shift them out of this mentality of following rules.

Moving From Rules To Desire

SPEAKER_02 34:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

You know, the 613 pharisaical rules into it's it's not about living your life from rules, it's about living your life from a desire. You know, because rules don't necessarily dictate desire, right? We see that all the time. You know, we have the rules, rules, rules. And I'm not saying there are certain times of level of maturity, like your kids, you gotta have certain guidelines for them. And those guidelines are helping move them to a place of making good good decisions, right? But what the but the heaviness of the pharisaic system of these all these rules, rules, Jesus said, no, it's not about rules, it's about desire. And here's your desire, love God and love people.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Yeah. That's a desire. And I think that's, you know, um because we can we can do that with people. Oh no, you gotta do this. You can't you can't eat this, and you can't eat that. You gotta, you know, we can just become another taskmasters with the rules of people. And it isn't transforming their lives, it isn't conforming, helping them to conform to the image of Christ. It's just making them, oh, I can't, I can't do this. I lived that way for a long time. I can't, as a Christian, oh, I can't do this, I can't do that. Realizing shouldn't be can't should be not living from can't, it should be living from want to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

I want to live this way.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

Aaron Ross Powell There's a and you, Pastor May, you can speak to this, but there seems to be like, and I I can I didn't come on the f I I mean to a certain extent, like I was a part of this style of being uh in Christ of in in regards to Capital C church. But there was a season, and I'm not sure that we have that season, I'm sure it's still around a little bit, but there was a season of where like being a Christian look like this believe first, bel uh become second, and then you belong. So belie I'm gonna believe, and then I'm gonna start, you know, acting like certain people, and then I'm gonna actually be one of them.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:51

Where like for the in the gospels, it's completely flipped. It is you belong, right? You you belong because of the work of Jesus Christ, and because you understand the love of Jesus Christ, now you're becoming uh something, and then now you're behaving. Where for our first season, it was like behave a certain way, behave a certain way, now you are now you're becoming, now you belong. And and it it really needs from what I'm hearing you describe, it's really the opposite. We need to approach. If we're approaching with love and not knowledge, we're approaching it with the opposite. Yeah. Both of those are equally important. Like I don't think that Paul is saying, don't use knowledge, he's saying, don't use knowledge without love. Use love and knowledge together.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Yeah, yeah. I think for me a great turning point was, and the Lord used this to show me. You remember when Joseph brought his two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, to Jacob to be blessed. And we know the story, he crosses his hands. He should have laid his hand on Manasseh, his right hand on Manasseh and his left hand on Ephraim, but he did the opposite, laid his right hand on Ephraim and his left hand on Manasseh. And um, you know, I'm I've been pastoring for a number of years and have these I ideologies of how people should be involved in church, all this stuff. Well, if you study that out, um Ephraim means fruitfulness, Manasseh means deliverance. And my approach to ministry is well, you gotta get people delivered and cleaned up and then you can get them involved. And the Lord said, no, if you get them involved, it'll if you get them into a place where they can start bearing fruit in their life, it's a big it's a big leap towards them getting delivered from the things that have been bondage in their life. And I was like, that just I was like, whoa.

SPEAKER_04 38:36

Game changer.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

And so what I did was change in how when when new people were coming in, people that either weren't saved or whatever, I was like, well, let's get them involved.

SPEAKER_04 38:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Let's let them be a part.

SPEAKER_04 38:48

No.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

And I saw more people get delivered from things that way than I did the other way.

SPEAKER_04 38:54

Yeah. I love my home church. Like the church I grew up in, became a Christian, loved it. And there was some and I know that no one meant this bad way, but I was in a car with a bunch of pastors heading to uh, you know, a pastor's meeting. There's like six of us in a vehicle, and I was crammed in the middle, you know, with all my lead pastors, executive pastors, associate pastor, youth pastor, and the only person that wasn't in there was my kids' pastor. And she had a very different way of doing ministry than the rest of them, you know, and uh and they were all great people and it was no it it is what it is, you know, kind of thing. But uh I remember the summer times, like she developed teams and we would literally of students like college and high school, we would literally do everything. And it looked like she was doing nothing. And we did everything, like, and she prepared for that, all that kind of stuff. And and so I remember one of the pastors saying, like, uh yeah, she's got it easy, she does nothing, you know, and I thought, oh my goodness. I mean, I'm 16 years old and I thought I completely miss it. Like, this is not good. Like, I was I I didn't know what to do because I love these men so much and like care deeply about all of them. And I thought, you guys understand I would not be sitting here today if it wasn't for the fact that she did not that she decided to take a chance on a 15-year-old kid that didn't even know how to read the Bible, didn't even know how to find Genesis 1-1. But she she she decided to disciple me before I was even ready. She decided to put me in environments before I was even ready to be in those environments, what you're saying right there. You know what I mean? Like uh those kind of things, you know, and so it's like holy smokes, you know, and I think that the church caught up, you know, obviously, but it's that idea of like, you know, uh, are we willing to um uh you know, not allow those things to stop knowledge to stop us to be motivated by uh love kind of thing. But yeah, such a good illustration. And so which I'm very thankful about life community church. Like it's one of the things I love so much about this this house is that like, you know, um we're willing like to like walk with people where they're at and get them connected and involved. I mean, the way we see in the gospels, Jesus walks up and says, follow me. He doesn't walk up and say, Change this, change this, change this, change this, change this, change this, then now follow me. And that's one of the things I love so much about our

Breaking Legalism Loops With Grace

SPEAKER_04 41:13

church.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Well, I think when you lean into, when you lead from legalism, I know that's an icky word, but and I think people who are sometimes don't know they're being legalistic, but I've seen church procedures or like protocol, and then even Christians put people trying to get plugged in in a loop, like a loop they can't get out of. Like for example, one time I was at a church and we had a pregnant teen mom come to something, not a big deal. And then I overheard some conversation like, oh like just not saying nice things about a teen mom. And I was like, Oh, are you are you pro-choice? Like, no, no, I'm pro-life. And I was like, Well, if you're pro-life, you're pro-teen mom. Because Absolutely. It's our what do you want her to do? What are you gonna do? Like, do you should we say, okay, you go ahead and go get an abortion and then come back and we'll get you plugged in? What are you asking her to do? And then another time, like just a a couple that had already lived together, had kids, whatever, wanted to make it right. And it's like, well, what do you do? Do you help them get married? Or do you say, well, now you we have to backtrack, we have to undo that. You have a home and two kids, undo that, then get married, then redo it. It's just like, what sort of loop are you putting people? Help them get to Jesus quickly. Let's get them to the feet of Jesus, and then let him sort through some of that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 42:34

That's so true.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

I think sometimes you need to I'm now my brain's very literal. So I always backtrack like, what am I asking them to do? If I feel a certain way about something, what do I expect the right answer to be? Does that procedure make sense? Is that actually what Jesus wants, or would that make me feel more comfortable? Or, you know, it's like, what are you asking people? Yeah. Let's just get them to Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 42:55

Just get them to Jesus. So good. One of the other things that I'm super uh excited about here at Life Community Church is our youth ministry.

Finishing Together Like The Mega Relay

SPEAKER_04 43:03

And so I think great things are happening. Super proud of Caleb Mate and all that they're doing and uh doing such a wonderful job. And I'm returning to camp after a handful of years of not being there. Um and so we've got some uh I mean, I'm not the most um I'm not gonna be the oldest guy returning to camp. Ray Bauman's gonna also close. Yeah, close, though. Close, yeah. And so I'm I'm excited. I'm very thankful that Caleb put me in a room with high school boys so then I can basically like see you on Friday, boys. I'm pumped about that. But uh I I know earlier we were talking about this race that ends at the end of camp, and I thought it was a great closing to uh this podcast, but there's a race, right, that happens because there's competition. I mean, for those who listen, there's a relay that happens, but we're competing, but the very last thing is a relay because you have we're the yellow team, you know, great color. We're the yellow team, and there's yellow team, orange team, green team, blue team. So at the end of the week on Friday, I'm assuming it is, or maybe it's Thursday night, it's been a long time since I've been there. And uh this whole team has to do something, and the only way they win is that everybody gets across the line. Correct.

SPEAKER_03 44:09

Everybody finishes, yep. Yep. So yeah, the the m they call it the mega relay. And uh yeah, basically the end of it, we then scramble the words at the end of it and then cross it. Gosh, it's just not good for me if we gotta show and then and then tell the people the word, and so it's ideal that the whole team makes it across with you.

SPEAKER_04 44:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

And so like in that too. Because I had this thought too, and I this is something that we were talking about a little bit earlier with Paul's emphaticness of like the never eating the meat. And there's some things that we've been like, some things that we've dealt in with youth and stuff with teenagers, and one of the things that always grieves my heart is whenever I know a kid is finding freedom, but then goes back to bondage.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

And so I think Paul, in his sense, he's saying, I will never be a part of somebody else's bondage.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:58

I will always be a part of someone else's freedom. That's good. And so I never want to like stand before God and then and like him be like, you know, well the kid got free of vape and now you were with their with them doing it. And you're part of you went back to their bondage. So that was always my like that was kind of something that weighed heavy on my heart as we were talking. Like I I could never imagine being a part of somebody else's bondage. Yeah. Leading somebody else back into bondage. Because you don't know where that what that'll go to. Because sometimes it could be worse.

SPEAKER_02 45:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:31

And typically it is. Typically it is. And so I would say that you could him making that statement is probably his foreknowledge of knowing that. Like I'll always be a part of people's freedom, never their That's good.

SPEAKER_04 45:41

Great way to end. Be a part of people's freedom. Not their bondage. Don't be a part of their bondage. So good.

Closing Prayer And Final Charge

SPEAKER_04 45:49

Well, Caleb, we're gonna close this in prayer.

SPEAKER_03 45:52

I can do it. Let's do it. God, we thank you. Um God for just the work of your Holy Spirit, God, and the all the things that you're doing in in the church. God, in our hearts and our lives, Lords. But we just uh we just pray that we would just have eyes that can see here and know what you are wanting to do. And in God, that our hearts would be just tender to everybody around us, God, and that we would just uh have the heart, heart and love of Jesus is flowing through us. And we thank you for it in Jesus' name. Amen.