In this episode, Julie Cockerill, a former corporate HR leader turned ADHD advocate, shares her transformative journey.
Her story offers a comforting sense of shared experiences, as we delve into the world of ADHD, her personal and professional journey, and how she leverages her corporate background to create a workspace inclusive of neurodiversity.
Our discussion ranges from the relief Julie experienced post-diagnosis, to the practical ways she manages her brain health through exercise, nutrition, and setting boundaries.
We shine a spotlight on the importance of fostering inclusive corporate environments for those with ADHD, underscoring the impact of small changes such as designated workspaces.
Don't miss Julie's future projects including a new website designed with an ADHD brain in mind and the launch of learning sites to support partners and parents of those with ADHD.
This episode serves as a testament to resilience, acceptance, and the power of understanding our unique brain wiring.
Get in contact with Julie here
The Culture Ministry exists to create inclusive, accessible environments so that people and businesses can thrive.
Combining a big picture, balanced approach with real-world experience, we help organisations understand their diversity and inclusion shortcomings – and identify practical, measurable actions to move them forward.
Go to https://www.thecultureministry.com/ to learn more
If you enjoyed this episode and maybe learnt something please share with your friends on social media, give a 5 star rating on Apple podcasts and leave a comment. This makes it easier for others to find A Dog Called Diversity.
A Dog Called Diversity is proud to be featured on Feedspot's 20 Best Diversity And Inclusion Podcasts
Thanks for listening. Follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook.
In this episode, Julie Cockerill, a former corporate HR leader turned ADHD advocate, shares her transformative journey.
Her story offers a comforting sense of shared experiences, as we delve into the world of ADHD, her personal and professional journey, and how she leverages her corporate background to create a workspace inclusive of neurodiversity.
Our discussion ranges from the relief Julie experienced post-diagnosis, to the practical ways she manages her brain health through exercise, nutrition, and setting boundaries.
We shine a spotlight on the importance of fostering inclusive corporate environments for those with ADHD, underscoring the impact of small changes such as designated workspaces.
Don't miss Julie's future projects including a new website designed with an ADHD brain in mind and the launch of learning sites to support partners and parents of those with ADHD.
This episode serves as a testament to resilience, acceptance, and the power of understanding our unique brain wiring.
Get in contact with Julie here
The Culture Ministry exists to create inclusive, accessible environments so that people and businesses can thrive.
Combining a big picture, balanced approach with real-world experience, we help organisations understand their diversity and inclusion shortcomings – and identify practical, measurable actions to move them forward.
Go to https://www.thecultureministry.com/ to learn more
If you enjoyed this episode and maybe learnt something please share with your friends on social media, give a 5 star rating on Apple podcasts and leave a comment. This makes it easier for others to find A Dog Called Diversity.
A Dog Called Diversity is proud to be featured on Feedspot's 20 Best Diversity And Inclusion Podcasts
Thanks for listening. Follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook.
Welcome to a dog called diversity. And this week I have the most lovely divine woman, julie Cockerel, on the pod. And Julie and I met because we we met at Foresters Beach in December last year.
Speaker 2:Yes, we were a member of her empire builder, then Julie. I was, yes, I was.
Speaker 1:So we're both members of her empire builder, which is a online course mastermind kind of community and run by Tina Tina tower. That's what I was trying to remember, and you know. Since then we've caught up in Sydney and more recently I've noticed that Julie was doing some really interesting things. So I said why don't you come on the podcast and we'll talk about those. But firstly, welcome Julie.
Speaker 2:Thank you, it's so lovely to be here Amazing.
Speaker 1:Amazing, yes, and I'd love to start and maybe tell us a little bit about yourself and the work you do and the work you were doing when we were meeting. Yeah, let's start there.
Speaker 2:Okay, great, thank you, because that's my most comfortable place is talking about myself. So let's start right there. So look, my my background is, you know, 30 odd years of corporate HR and you know that's really been working on senior teams. You know leading businesses setting HR strategy. And then, probably about I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, I jumped out into more organizational development, so really focusing in on building capability, and that was sales capability, leadership capability, etc. And and that I found was kind of an interesting time because I was starting to think about, well, how do I do this better? And so I I kind of jumped into a little bit more of the change management and, like I've done I think all the way through my career is, I've kind of gone, oh, I need this skill and I'm just going to go and get a certification or I'll do a course or I'll read a book or a course, and so you know I've done. I've done lots of things. But you know, what I've found really really helpful in all of this is that I've sort of taken that change management and I've laid that in everything that I do, and so that's been a great skill to kind of add to the toolkit and I think all HR people should have change management capability.
Speaker 2:And then I started my own business that marine half years ago and, as you know, as an ADHD, when you start your own business, you typically do that because you can't find a space for yourself. You know you've got all of these skills and capabilities and you can't find the role that really suits you, that allows you to kind of shine and, and you know, do all of the things and make an impact, and and so when I first started my business, I was thinking I want to do all of the things and what I realized, probably quite slowly, was that actually all of the things takes a lot of time. All of the things takes a lot of a lot of thinking and energy and focus. And and so I kind of finally got it around. About maybe two and a half years into the business I went this isn't working. You know, I'm I'm, I'm doing the revenue, I'm doing the marketing, I'm doing the finance and doing selling, but I'm not filling up my cup and I'm not feeling the, the joy and I'm working all the time. And Probably the year before I'd actually been diagnosed with ADHD and I just started to think about, you know, I kept meeting people.
Speaker 2:I was attracting other ADHDs into my life and my coaching clients were ADHDs and you know. So we would talk about that and talk about strategies. And so probably the last sort of eight or nine months I've really been working behind the scenes to think about what would this look like? You know, how could I make a business out of helping people with ADHD and play to my strengths and use my toolkit? And then how do I translate that, you know, for people like myself who work in corporate life, how do I help them be more successful? And that's kind of that's the consulting side of the business, that says how do we create psychological safety so much so that people can be themselves and talk about the different brain and how they need to work? And so that's kind of. My business has evolved and I'm now in this sort of full blown pivot, which is really exciting and yeah, no fracking and all the things yeah.
Speaker 1:I have so many questions, so many, and I think this is probably not a question.
Speaker 1:Well, it's not a question, but I have realized throughout my career I've always been attracted to people probably more women, but people across the board in the organizations that I've worked in who were a bit quite quirky, a bit maybe different not perhaps realizing that I was a bit quirky and a bit different, and I don't have an ADHD diagnosis but every time I speak to someone on this podcast or not on the podcast who has said, yeah, I've been diagnosed, I'm like, oh, I think this could be me, but, as you were saying, you know when you were diagnosed, then you're attracting more of those people and I think there's something about the energy and the passion and thinking about things differently. That's really attractive. Yes, but I wanted to go back and ask you how the diagnosis came about, because and in the relatively small sample on my podcast I speak to quite a number of women who've been diagnosed at a particular age, in a particular stage of their life. So tell me about how your diagnosis came about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was an interesting one and it's a very similar story to everybody that I meet, male or female, at a similar sort of stage. So we've got kids and we're taking them to be assessed because they've got some struggles at school. They might have some relationship struggles or they might have a poor report card, or they're very smart, but they're finding it hard to kind of sit still and do the work. And I'm pretty sure that was every report card I ever had across my whole school time. But we just women weren't diagnosed back then because it wasn't a female thing, it was only a boy thing, and so we know so much more.
Speaker 2:So I take my son to be diagnosed and we're sitting with the beautiful GP and she's asking all the questions and he's kind of a bit shy and but I'm in the background going yep, no, no, that's me. Yep, tick, tick, tick. And it was only in that moment that I thought Is that me? Could I have ADHD? I had no thought about it, but it was actually the first time that I thought, okay, well, this could explain so much. And it was the first time I'd sort of allowed myself to think all of the struggles for so many years that I'd never really spoken about.
Speaker 2:I was sitting in this moment with this beautiful GP and I was going. Actually, it's probably the first time I felt seen and heard in years, yeah. And so you know, I say to her look, I'd love a, can I get a referral to go and get formally assessed? And so she hands over the two referrals. You know, my son goes to one, I go to another, and it was so lovely because it was the first time I could kind of talk about all the things that were going on in my brain. You know the inability to really focus. You know, yes, I've gone and I've done my masters and all my qualifications, and but everything seemed so hard. You know, it just seemed like, you know, one minute I was doing really well and firing and probably doing 30 days work in one day, but the next day I'd be exhausted and staring at the wall and I couldn't understand how to regulate myself, and so this diagnosis actually just gave me relief. I think it's probably the best way to describe it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, having that diagnosis does it mean that you do some things differently? Does it like? Has it helped you in a practical way?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And look, I was really lucky because I was studying well-being and positive psychology at the same time and I suppose I've done quite a lot of kind of work on myself and leadership development and coaching and counseling over many years, so I already had some good strategies, but actually the neuroscience and the brain-friendly stuff and some of the wonderful kind of well-being tools I had not really utilized and I just thought, oh, this is such a great time for me and I can figure out what kind of working well.
Speaker 2:But I think the most important thing with all of this is that your brain is your most important asset and so you've got to look after both brains your gut health as well as your brain-brain and in doing that, you're gonna be in a much better position to work with this thing, which is just this little bit of a different way of thinking. But the biggest thing for me is the confidence. The diagnosis has given me the confidence and I think that's probably why I'm now feeling like I'm in a better position to help others. Yeah, and I love that feeling because for so many years I've kind of worked in corporate jobs and gone. This is really exciting I kind of work and I do this and I get paid, but I don't feel passionate and I don't feel like I've got some sort of greater purpose. And now I kind of feel like I've got some greater purpose there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you know what I used to think when I worked in bigger organisations and I've had a really great career, like you have it was this feeling that I wasn't doing the right thing, like I wasn't working on the right thing. I wasn't working in my passion, and I've done various leadership courses where you might do a 360 or you might do some sort of personality kind of assessment, and every time I did one of those, they would come up and I could see that I was working in the right career from these assessments. But it never felt like it and I'd be always like what's going on with this? Is it just that I haven't found the right organisation? But after you've worked for a few big companies is it them or is it you?
Speaker 1:It was only, I guess, leaving and running my own business that I've worked out that I just needed all of that autonomy. I needed that space to do and try all of the things if I wanted to. And it's been really interesting because, people, I'm in a different mastermind now and it's about what's your purpose and you've got a focus and it's like, yeah, but I'm still discovering. I've had the shackles taken off from the corporate world and I'm still having fun working out whatever it is I want to do. Right, yeah, so I think there's something common there. Definitely, what are the things you do practically to help your brain? What are the boundaries you put in place?
Speaker 2:Look, and boundaries is a really interesting one, so I'll address that after I address the first part of this because I'm going to write it down because I will forget, so I'll write down boundaries.
Speaker 2:The really important things for me and I notice the difference when I don't do them is getting up every day and exercising, and for me that it could be as simple as walking the dogs. It could be yoga. Yoga is my, that's my moving meditation, because I don't think about anything else. It's the time when my brain is just present and focus on what I'm doing, which, as an ADHD, that is often really hard, unless you are in hyper focus, in which case, great, you're only focused on that and you're not focused on even going to the toilet. That's really important. The second thing that's really important is not eating bread or carbs in the morning, which I really love. I love bread and carbs, I love it, but that is just a killer for digestion and because your brain has basically got to work to digest that, and so if it's digesting that, it's slow and sluggish and that means I can't do the thinking that I need to do. So that's really important for me. And obviously the other things are things like lots of lots of water.
Speaker 2:I work in different positions and different locations, so I've got a stand up desk. If I need to do thinking work, I stand up and I put thinking music on. Or if I want to do more creative work, I go and I sit out on the back deck in the sunshine and that's my beautiful. It's beautiful time, I get the vitamin D, but I'm also just able to kind of look at the sky and feel a sense of space. And I think that's probably why there's so many people wanting to work from home, because they can flex, they can work how and where they want to work in things that they feel comfortable in. I just I think this sort of construct of turning up at work, sitting at a desk and all going to 50 meetings back to back, I just it's just not brain friendly. And so if you're an ADHD or any sort of level of neurodiversity, that is going to be that is just criminal, that is just a hiding to nothing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think anyone's brain can deal with that. That's yeah.
Speaker 2:No, no, it's not set up for being brain friendly. But the boundaries thing is interesting because, you know, from an ADHD perspective, we tend to be more people pleasing and so we're interested in other people, you know, being happy and liking us, and I haven't. Really I didn't discover boundaries and how important they were, probably until this year, and things kept happening and I just kept thinking why is this happening? And it's because I hadn't put boundaries in place, and so that's kind of one of the things that I've been working on this year, you know, not just with clients, but also my partner and my son and daughter and you know, family and that's that's you know confronting, but that's also really important for brain health and mindset and space and self love and self respect.
Speaker 1:So I love your pivot where you've moved into ADHD coaching. Yeah, what are. What are some of the common challenges people have, I guess, in the workplace with ADHD? What? What are some of the strategies you work with them, with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there are. There are quite a few, and I think probably the first one is the feeling that you can't tell people that you're ADHD and that there might be a stigma attached to it. Whether it's real or imagined doesn't really matter. Right, it's all perspective. But there's still a lack of understanding around what ADHD is. And you know we've all got stories. You know my story. We had a boy growing up and he would climb the side of the house and he had, he was definitely ADHD. But we didn't have language for that. Yeah, we just. We just said he drank too much cordial and you know he was hyperactive. But and so unless you've got some level of experience with someone that you know who has ADHD, that can talk to you about what it is, how it works, how it manifests differently for people, then you may not feel confident about talking about it and asking for support and help, and so that's kind of that's the first thing it's about. You know, do I have the confidence to work in the environment where I can be at my best? The second thing is it's understanding how ADHD manifests for you and then what things actually work for you. So you know what are you noticing that you know, are your triggers. So, for instance, you know, for me, and I might be working on a piece of work for a client, that's not the most stimulating thing in the world, but it's got to be done and, and so I might get an idea in my head and then all bets are off, I will be down a rabbit hole. I'll be researching and I'm quite capable of losing, you know, a whole afternoon on that. And so I've got I, you know, you've got to put in this sort of the structure around. I'm noticing that I'm off track, and what's going to help me get back on track? And so Some of those strategies around how do you use your strengths, the what are you strengths? And how do you use your strengths at work? You know it could be things like how do you Sandwich the tasks that you don't really love With things that you do love so that you can kind of keep your dopamine going? How do you chunk up tasks? So again, you're ticking things off and that's driving confidence and dopamine levels and then just managing your energy around those things.
Speaker 2:So is it you need to work in different locations. You might need time to kind of get things done in quiet space. So that's, you know there's some really practical things in there, but there's also some some mindset stuff. You know this sort of I call it the you know BS thinking or bullshit thinking. Right, and what happens over time is that we create these, this dialogue, these bullshit rules in our head, which are all the things that you know perhaps we've listened to and we've kind of reprogrammed ourselves around like not good enough, not spot enough, not fast enough, and so Really focused on working with banishing that stuff and just knowing that. You know the self-compassion and the conversation that you're having with yourself all the time. You know your brains always the same. So you know, we're really working on fueling the positive thinking, but not in a not in a kind of Fake way. It's really about challenging those, those negative, critical thoughts and, you know, changing the stories that we've got with ourselves. So that's, they're just some of the things that we we work on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, cool, and I think in when we're talking about work, I always think there's two sides To being effective. There's one, you know looking after yourself, knowing what triggers you, knowing how you're going to work at your best, having the right mindset, all of those things. But the other side is having organizations that have some things in place that mean people who are neuro diverse can still be successful. So what are the things that organizations should be doing to accommodate people with ADHD or any other Neuro diverse conditions? I guess yeah, yeah, and they're they're, obviously they're quite a few.
Speaker 2:I mean, neuro diverse is obviously it's an umbrella term. But yeah, you know, dyslexia is a is a really common one that obviously gets diagnosed quite quite early in life, and so the people that I know that are with that have dyslexia have got strategies that they they have in place but, um, but what I noticed is, you know there's there's some Really easy things, really easy accommodation. And so you know, if you look at something like the recruitment process, so if you're trying to attract people into your organization, just being able to to say right from the outset Look, I, I am, you know I am neuro diverse and I do need some accommodations, or I just need to know that. You know I I don't do eye contact, um, or when I interview I prefer to have my video off, um or um, you know it might be, I need some time to prepare for my responses. So, actually being able to cater for different types of people right from the outset, to show actually we embrace All brains and skills and capabilities and thinking Um, and we are prepared to make adjustments in the way we recruit people.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of one area, I think it's it's quite easy um, the other things that are Making sure that the environment Is is right for different times of thinking and working. Um, you know, we look at organizations that have done a lot of agile workplaces, um, which it can be really great, right. So you've got um quiet places where people can go and they can be focused and they can limit distractions. Um, you need places where, perhaps, you know, lighting can be adjusted, you know, because bright lights can be quite distracting, you know. The other thing that's really important are things like making sure that people can move around, or you know, they don't have to come into the office, or, if they're better at night, then allowing them to come in later and work later, you know, but personally, I think these are important for all employees. Yes, regardless of whether you have a different brain or not.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I know some of the organisations I've worked for were not particularly advanced in their thinking of office design. I think you know the office design stemmed from how can we fit the most amount of people into the smallest amount of space? Essentially yeah, yeah, with not a lot of thought to different types of work and different types of thinking and different spaces. And like people hate just sitting in rows and rows and rows with whether you're neurodiverse or not, people don't like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And look, you know, there are some people that are. And I remember my first car. I was contracting with a media company and they just moved to an agile environment and I can't remember going in there going, okay, this isn't going to work for me, I don't have my desk, you know? That's, that's. I loved it. I mean my, my locker was full to overflowing and every time I opened it stuff fell out. But I loved it because it gave me the flexibility to work where I needed to, to create the environment based on the task that I was trying to achieve, and so that just made so much sense. Yeah, so good, yeah.
Speaker 1:I also think the whole hot disking thing. A lot of people like to have a home. They like to have a place, whether you're neurodiverse or not, you know.
Speaker 2:I just I think you know there's some human issues that we're seeing in the workplace at the moment.
Speaker 1:That's a big challenge. So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And you and that, and this is, I think, the the challenge for employers, right? So we've kind of gone from one extreme, which is everybody worked from hunger and COVID, to this other extreme of we want everybody back into the office full time, part time, whatever it might be and I just don't know that we're doing a good enough job yet of creating the kind of culture and environment that allows you to flex and be your best self and and not worry so much about the construct or the building that you're doing it in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, jody she would know it really is it really is what's next in your business. So, like when I first met you, we were part of a community building online courses and I don't know if you've gone down that path at all, but, like, where are you heading now with your businesses?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I, I just I'm just about to launch my new website another labor of love and and I'm really excited about it because all of my my branding is has been developed and my website has been developed with, you know, an ADHD brain in mind. So that's that is quite exciting. And then at the end of this year I will have set up a learning site and I'll do a couple of different things. So I'll do some some you know, low cost, sort of free stuff. That's really about what does ADHD look like and you know how can I sort of very quickly get a sense of what I need to do to support my ADHD at work Right through to next year, thinking about helping partners of people with ADHD, support them better and understand them better, because you know, we often I mean my, my husband is neurotypical and so when I try to explain to him you know what's going on in my brain or when we're talking and I've moved on to several other things that he's taken too long, or he's chewing his nails and I can't, I'm like I'm about to have a meltdown, and then I'm trying to explain that that is, you know, that's sensory overload.
Speaker 2:You know, these are just some things that I think would be really helpful for partners of people with ADHD and likewise, you know, parents of kids with ADHD. You know how do we parent better, how do we support better. Because the school system is, you know, their teachers are doing their absolute best and I was talking to a teacher of a school in New South Wales and they just don't have the capacity and and the skills to support kids with ADHD in the classroom. So if a child is very hyperactive, adhd that's, and they're not stimulated appropriately, that's really hard to manage and it's hard to manage with the other kids. You know. Just, you know within yourself it's tough, it's really tough. So, yeah, the idea is I will continue with my coaching. I want to do a lot more educating of corporate environments and then, you know, by late this year, early next year, I'll be launching some courses that are kind of bite sized and really targeting people with ADHD and how they can manage more effectively.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah that sounds amazing.
Speaker 2:Amazing Julie, yeah, so exciting oh such a pleasure speaking with you.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate it. I wish you all the best with your business.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you, it's been, it's been so lovely being able to talk to you about it, and diversity is really important. We need we need to understand that and we need to do a better job of it. To be honest, we really do. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for your time. Thanks for having me on the podcast.