Today's episode follows the journey of Curtis Baker, a champion of diversity and inclusion, from humble beginnings in small-town Tennessee to his current role as a Regional Inclusion Leader at Dow in the Asia-Pacific region.
Curtis’s experiences around culture shock, navigating his coming out journey and finding the courage to be authentic highlights the importance of ongoing conversations around diversity, inclusion, and mental health.
He reminds us that change, though challenging, is not only possible but also necessary for creating inclusive and supportive spaces where everyone can thrive, while at the same time inspiring a profound exploration of identity and diversity.
Throughout the episode, Curtis also touches on his experience with deciding to do conversion therapy, how that impacted his life and what it actually entails.
Join us in this enriching conversation filled with heartfelt stories, valuable lessons, and practical advice on embracing diversity and inclusion.
The Culture Ministry exists to create inclusive, accessible environments so that people and businesses can thrive.
Combining a big picture, balanced approach with real-world experience, we help organisations understand their diversity and inclusion shortcomings – and identify practical, measurable actions to move them forward.
Go to https://www.thecultureministry.com/ to learn more
If you enjoyed this episode and maybe learnt something please share with your friends on social media, give a 5 star rating on Apple podcasts and leave a comment. This makes it easier for others to find A Dog Called Diversity.
A Dog Called Diversity is proud to be featured on Feedspot's 20 Best Diversity And Inclusion Podcasts
Thanks for listening. Follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook.
Today's episode follows the journey of Curtis Baker, a champion of diversity and inclusion, from humble beginnings in small-town Tennessee to his current role as a Regional Inclusion Leader at Dow in the Asia-Pacific region.
Curtis’s experiences around culture shock, navigating his coming out journey and finding the courage to be authentic highlights the importance of ongoing conversations around diversity, inclusion, and mental health.
He reminds us that change, though challenging, is not only possible but also necessary for creating inclusive and supportive spaces where everyone can thrive, while at the same time inspiring a profound exploration of identity and diversity.
Throughout the episode, Curtis also touches on his experience with deciding to do conversion therapy, how that impacted his life and what it actually entails.
Join us in this enriching conversation filled with heartfelt stories, valuable lessons, and practical advice on embracing diversity and inclusion.
The Culture Ministry exists to create inclusive, accessible environments so that people and businesses can thrive.
Combining a big picture, balanced approach with real-world experience, we help organisations understand their diversity and inclusion shortcomings – and identify practical, measurable actions to move them forward.
Go to https://www.thecultureministry.com/ to learn more
If you enjoyed this episode and maybe learnt something please share with your friends on social media, give a 5 star rating on Apple podcasts and leave a comment. This makes it easier for others to find A Dog Called Diversity.
A Dog Called Diversity is proud to be featured on Feedspot's 20 Best Diversity And Inclusion Podcasts
Thanks for listening. Follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook.
Welcome to a dog called diversity, and this week I have one of my favorite diversity and inclusion leaders joining me, also one of my favorite people, I think. Welcome, curtis Baker. Great to have you.
Speaker 2:Thanks, lisa, it's really great to be here. Well, thanks for the accolades.
Speaker 1:You're also one of my greatest supporters and it's so lovely. If I post something on LinkedIn, you will often like it or make a comment or share it, and that means so much when you're in a small business and you're trying to make it. You know people doing that for you. I so appreciate it. So thank you so much.
Speaker 2:We gotta support each other. That's what it's about. It's a community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's something about people who work in diversity and inclusion, who support each other pretty much no matter what, across the board. So many kind people work in this space, so it's super lovely, I think, especially in our region.
Speaker 2:You know where, you know there's a lot of data, there's a lot of stuff, there's lots of support, there's big groups that come out of, you know, more than North America, even out of Europe and I think, in the Asia Pacific. You know we have our, we support ourselves, but, you know, with resources, with best practices, with love, because sometimes this role, this industry, this profession is lonely and so that's where we get the yeah, lonely and tough.
Speaker 2:Plus, you're pretty cool. You're a pretty cool person, so I love your stuff because you're so fit, well and authentic and you have fabulous hair, so why not? Thank you.
Speaker 1:I like to think I have fabulous hair, yeah, yeah, but I was just before we hit record. I was. I was saying to you, curtis, about you never know where people have come from and what experiences that they've had, and this morning I had just that experience. I hopped in a taxi here in Auckland and was chatting to the taxi driver, and I have learned when you're in different countries, whether you're living there or whether you're visiting often you learn the most from the taxi drivers, or I've learned a lot about cultures and experiences through taxi drivers, and this mornings was absolutely no. Well, he was no exception to that. He has an incredible story as a refugee coming to New Zealand. And then I was reflecting on you, curtis, and your incredible story, which we're going to get to to share today. So we'll start with it. You're based in Shanghai.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But you didn't start in Shanghai, China. Could you, I guess, tell us a bit about where you grew up and some of your experiences growing up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. So I don't know what gave it away that much Shanghai. Maybe it's the hair, I don't know, yeah, that was it. Maybe the color, so, yeah, no, yes, so originally grew up outside of Nashville, tennessee, in the US, from the US Originally, you know, just about 25 plus years ago we don't talk about any pluses and you know that way.
Speaker 2:Yes, grew up you know, very small little town, quite a traditional Southern family, southern Christian family at that, a younger brother, you know. And so growing up, you know how we grew up and that is our world, you know. And so I had such a small world, you know, but I thought I was the big, the big world. I'm very conservative Christian family growing up, but I always wanted more. You know, part of growing up to was the struggle, I think, of knowing who you are and you know, I think, just explain how small the town, that the nearest Starbucks was like an hour away, like, wow, those of us in the cities that live in cities and I really, I mean I can get Starbucks like five different directions in like three minutes right now. But but I'm really grateful for that Now. At the time I hated growing up in a small town, but now I'm grateful because it instilled in you something that you can't buy, you can't learn, it's just. It's instead maybe it's in the water too, but just some of those values and how you see people, how you see situations, but also, as part of that, come from my family.
Speaker 2:But part of the growing up conservative Christian too is because later, you know, I struggled with who I was, with my identity, you know, starting to see. You know why do I have these attractions to other guys? You know what is this about? What you know, at that time we didn't have Google. So that's definitely over 25 years ago, because Google is only 25 years this year. So you know. But you know, eventually, you know, coming out to me was a very difficult process. I actually did come out until college and that was a very. I just came out to a small circle within my close friends, you know, at that time bisexual and eventually gay.
Speaker 1:Did you go away to college or did you go to college nearby where you grew up?
Speaker 2:It was just an hour away across state lines, so that was a big thing, you know, across the big state line, but it was still close enough. I can come home one of the weekends for laundry. The first two years For me, you know, I took an adventure. I went to undergrad in Marie Marie, kentucky, murray State University, studied PR. But I took an adventure because I knew there was just more and I and this is where I was infected with the travel bug, that virus that is never contained, it's never fed enough.
Speaker 2:So I studied abroad, in Germany, in Regensburg, Germany, for a semester and to me then the world became really, really huge and to me that's what I think, that's what caused me to be kind of fed into the spirit of wearing up today, you know, living abroad. So this is my second time living abroad, I mean that way. But when I came back to the US and was like, wait, I've been all these countries, I've been all these places, you know, and I come back to this really small little town, I was like there's so much more of the world. So, you know, for me, after graduation I moved to Nashville and worked in the music industry. So for about six, seven years, not a singer, not a musician. So that's why I was on the business side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had a really cool opportunity to work with MTV, work with some bands that you may have heard of Again, this is going to date me a little bit but, like Pink, Snoop Dogg, missy Elliott, our agency helped to found John Mayer and train some of those folks as well, so it was really fun. I didn't make any money, because every time you'd spend money, you know, especially at college. But some amazing experiences, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool. You said that you didn't really come out to your in college and many guests I've had on the podcast who have grown up in maybe more conservative places or conservative families have that experience. It's almost like not to your kind of away a bit, that you really feel like you can be more of yourself and be out. Now, how did I guess? How did that go down with your family? You said you know, conservative Christian, you know how? How is that at the time and how is it now?
Speaker 2:At the time I still wasn't out to my family, you know, it was more out to my college classmates and that very, very small circle. Because, still to me, you know, growing where I did, you know there weren't other people like me. You know it was still very taboo, I mean, even I remember sitting in church and hearing all gays are going to hell in your damnation. And so, boom, you know the weight of the world and the red flag and scarlet letter all over you, you know. And so there was a fear of being who you thought you were, you know, and you wanted to get rid of it. There's something wrong with you. That's what. That's what I thought. There's something wrong with me. And so, you know, when I moved to Nashville, you know, I kind of got away from church, because that's how I grew up and I felt like something was missing, but I didn't know what.
Speaker 2:Now I know what, if I look back, it was just I didn't know who it was. I wasn't accepting myself, but I was looking for and searching for myself, you know, and that lead me to actually going through conversion therapy to try to fix myself because, as you can imagine, you know, when you're you're bouncing these two worlds. You know who you are externally versus who you are internally. You know, and they're clashing. You know, you're fighting, you're pretending and that's exhausting, and no, there's some mental health struggles in that as well. You know. With you know, is this even worth living? This is even worth fighting for? You know. And so, going through conversion therapy, I thought, oh, this is the way I can get rid of it.
Speaker 1:I can say that your choice to go through that.
Speaker 2:I have to say it was my choice at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then the further I got into it. You know it was just, it was continued the battle. It wasn't like you know you could fake it. You know I was on platforms talking about you know praying, the gateway with you know, with excess ministries, which was now, if you haven't seen the Netflix show, a pray away. Ironically, I saw them to clips and I saw myself in the clips and it was just like some major PTSD. But I will say that, looking back, I'm glad I went through that experience because it makes me more grateful and appreciative and solid in who I am and why I do what I do to today, you know. But I will say going through that process of conversion therapy is very dangerous, it's very scary, yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you feel comfortable sharing what that process is? If you're not, it's fine, but I don't think many people, particularly straight people like me, you know. The most I know about conversion therapy is that it's now being outlawed in most countries because it's pretty awful, but I don't think most of us know what that is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know I was thinking about this recently even because I was reading an article around some some of the outcome of praying away, the film from Netflix and referenced because that is a true story. It's based on friends, et cetera. So, really, conversion therapy is based and fundamentally is based in Christian beliefs and it's about going through a therapy, type of therapy called regressive repair therapy. So you're going back to try to find the route to where. You know this is the concept of conversion therapy. That the plus is that there was something that happened in your early childhood that you disconnected from the same sex parent, and so you want to go back and find where that is and try to heal that going forward. You know that's kind of the premises of it, and so it was a lot of counseling.
Speaker 2:You know going back and saying how was your relationship with your father? And you know, and my dad was, you know we weren't super, super close, but my dad was a fantastic dad. You know he loved the way. He knows. You know we all love different ways. You know it was very close to my mom because my mom was super nurturing. You know my dad worked a lot so he could provide for the family, and so I was like, oh, maybe it was because of this disconnect, you know.
Speaker 2:So there was a lot of that. You know things were you were met with a counselor who was not an official licensed clinical mental health practitioner but was more from the religious side, and so, you know, you gave into that, but there was a lot of condemnation, I think internal condemnation and that, and I went through that process for about three years, you know. So you're going in and you're journaling. You know what took you back to this. You know, some conversion therapy even goes as far it was a little more controversial even within the conversion therapy realm even holding therapy where you need to be held by some of the same gender and cry as you could feel, and I mean, if you sound like you're like, you're crazy.
Speaker 2:You're looking back at yeah, it's very dangerous too because, like I said, you know, for me, even I had thoughts of suicidal thoughts at an attempt. I even had friends that were, that weren't successful through conversion therapy and did end up losing their life. And I say a lot because of conversion therapy, because of the internal, the internal dialogue, and just they couldn't handle the pressures of this is what you're supposed to do versus this is who I really am. And so, you know, I again I go back and look at it now and reflect on it like, yeah, it was hard, it was rough and it almost cost me my life. But I look at it now and to say this part, one of the reasons why I do believe in inclusive practices, why I do believe in diversity, inclusion and equity, because, and when we talk about not so much be your authentic self at work, but creating a workplace where everyone can belong, you know and I think there is a difference and so, yeah, that's kind of my, that's kind of the journey.
Speaker 1:It's how did you, how did you get out of the conversion therapy? Was it? Was it that you finished the course? Or was it that at some point you realized this is not right? Like, how do you? It's a bit like being in a cult, and how do you? How do you get out of the cult? How do you see that there's something different out there?
Speaker 2:You personally, I moved. I moved from Nashville to Orlando and I needed a geographic move, I needed a change, of change of space, and it was good for me. And I found, like you know, throughout my life, when I move I have a move and change locations big, big moments, you know, big changes, big paradigm shifts, and it's really good, you know. And so you know, moving from Nashville to Orlando was good. Like you know, I'm getting away from this bubble, I'm getting away from this. This is who you are, to go and to be who you are and find yourself.
Speaker 2:So, moving to Orlando, closer to the beach, which I love, is my peaceful place, I was able to make my own decisions and to and to define my own life and really, in a way, get a fresh start. And so that geographic relocation was really, really important for me, spiritually, mentally, and so it was good in that way. But it took a just. I moved to Orlando, no job, didn't know where I was going to live, but just, I had friends there and I was like I need a change and I heard there's a big Disney world there, so why not?
Speaker 1:Is that where you started working for Disney, or did that come later in your career?
Speaker 2:Ironically, it came after, and so I lived in Orlando for about five or six years. I worked in education at a private preparatory school, which was fantastic. I had to meet a lot of international folks from all over the world and that sparked some of my curiosity for especially living and traveling in Asia. And actually I took an adventure. One of my international students invited me to Chengdu, china, which is the home of pandas and spicy food and an amazing city, and I said no, why not? So I took a trip like a week to Chengdu and then a week in Beijing, and then I went back to Florida and I said I have to go there, like I need to go for a year, and I started looking for jobs.
Speaker 2:And Disney operated in Chengdu and operated a lot in China at that time and I was like, why not? That is my life philosophy, is why not? So I did an application and when three months later, I'm on a plane going to China for a one year contract with Disney, I thought I can do anything for a year. I mean anything, and that was 10 years ago, and so I'm still in China. So I worked for the Walt Disney Company in three different businesses an HR, diversity, inclusion, equity. It's really gotten to I&D. And then now the last two years I've been working with Dao Dao chemical, so yeah, yeah, so 10 years in China.
Speaker 2:Gosh the decade.
Speaker 1:You were local.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How's the language coming along?
Speaker 2:And Chinese would say mama boo-hoo, which is like a little okay, okay, okay. I say I can get into trouble, but I can't get out of trouble with the language.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes. Many a trip to China for me I've been to China quite a bit and the getting out of the trouble. You're so right, I've always got the hotel card and on one side it has the address in English. On the other side it has the address in Chinese. You know, always thinking about how do I get back to where I need to go.
Speaker 2:But you know that experience is so interesting because I think it gets you out of your comfort zone so much. And to me again, moving, moving from Florida then to China, I did a self reflection of self evaluation. What do I really believe in? You know, I fell in love with the culture because I'm such a curious person. That's why I asked so many questions, because I don't ask questions just to ask. I'm really like I need to know how that works. I'm really curious, or, and that's why it has been, you know, living here, and so I think that that curiosity has driven, you know, and so I just dove into. You know, not a typical expat, you know, I really like to go into the local places and you know I had to learn the link. My second language was Spanish, so, but I guess what? They don't really speak much Spanish in China.
Speaker 1:They do not.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I had to pick up some of the language really to survive. But I found in love with the culture and with the people. Politics we push that aside. It's the people's culture, it's the we call it Gui Shigan in Chinese that sense of belonging. It's like you know, like you feel, like you can feel home. So I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that about Singapore as well, that I think on the surface Singapore seems a little Western, but the longer they are, the more you realize it's very Chinese. And there is nothing prouder in my eyes than having local friends who will take you to local places and invite you to their homes and all of that stuff is so cool. And I think just learning that you can go to places where you can't speak the language but you can still work out how to do things, you can still communicate, it's so satisfying, I think and it brings us back to the fact that we're all human and that we're all.
Speaker 1:We all have often very similar values and what we're trying to achieve in our lives. Yeah, I wanted to ask you because you, you haven't always worked in diversity and inclusion, but often people who work in this space have lived experience. They, like you and I, know what it's like to be excluded, to have challenges, you know, and often that informs our work. So so how did you navigate into the two, diversity and inclusion?
Speaker 2:I love. Like I said, I'm a very curious person and that's how I landed into. I mean, for one, like I started my career here with an HR, and for one, I'm not your typical HR person, like I'm the one that looks for the loopholes you know I like the exception.
Speaker 1:You want me to write a policy? What? Okay, we'll write the rules, but it's really just a guideline. It's just a guideline.
Speaker 2:Exactly so for me. You know, I was working, I was doing a foreign recruitment, talent acquisition to bring folks to to China for Disney and, coming from, you know, living in Orlando, being fully accepting of who I am, very out now and comfortable with who I am, etc. You know, I asked a simple question one day is like hey, I heard there's this pride group pride celebration in Shanghai, so obviously this has been a few years ago and I was like oh, who should I contact in Disney, you know? So it's simple, simple email and went to CSR. Long story short, that email went fast tracked, stricter vice president of HR, and you just came to ping me and said hey, I saw your email, let's talk. And like that initial guy says I'm fired, I'm packing, I'm going home, see you later.
Speaker 2:No, it became a great insult to this day was one of my favorite, is a pivotal moment, is a lifestyle moment, milestone moment. You know Jim Legopoulos, still with Walt Disney Company, still an amazing person I so respect and love, and he said I don't know, curtis, let's figure this out. Do you know what a ERG is like? Nope, I don't either. Let's figure this out together, he said. But I am committed to doing this together. So if you will lead it, I'll support you and I think that's I look back now is like that was an executive sponsor. That's. That is sponsorship.
Speaker 2:Yeah you know, and that is someone to say I don't know either, but let's figure it out together. So for me, that launched our first Disney pride ERG in all of Asia and that eventually grew into a decision to land to other parts as well. But there was very program. So we were doing programs, you know, and in the culture where we were, you know, in China it's still a little conservative around LGBTQ and that was around, you know, 2016, 2017. With that Disney, we did join Shanghai Pride, which was still an, you know, a celebration. It was the largest LGBTQ in Asia.
Speaker 2:Subsequently after that, you know, I joined Shanghai Pride on the executive team and then eventually, shanghai Pride was closed for safety reasons that you can all imagine being where we live and know and so but for me, still leading the ERG and more people started to join in Disney, I wanted more, I was curious again to learn more, and then I realized it's actually a career and like, are you kidding me? Because it was when I first started I was the only out person in the company, in the office, and yet I'd walk around and go. You know that, dar, you know, but it was the fact that we had not created an environment or a sense of belonging or a place where people could be who they truly genuinely are. And so, you know, we started talking about it and we started bringing external people inside to bring and to share their stories. And then we started sharing internally and it grew and more and more people became more comfortable. And for me, you know that sense of belonging and acceptance. You know, first it was a big rainbow target on my back, but then it became a big rainbow heart, you know, and more people began to. And so then you didn't know who was an ally and who was part of the LGBT community and our vice president had changed at the time.
Speaker 2:Her name's Laura TM, still the vice president of HR in Asia for Disney. She said let me be your sponsor. And you know, again, going back to that sponsorship, having those people to say yes for you even when you're not in the room, you know, that really led me to be to say I want to go after this. And I talked to her and I said I need more understanding what DEI is. And so I went through Cornell and did the Cornell DEI certification for HR and that gave me some foundation. But the thing about that was it was still very North America centric, because you know my lens and my lived experiences here in Asia. You know my partner's Chinese, and so it was very different. So I said I want to do this, but I want to do this in Asia because there's different nuances and such, so I can't.
Speaker 2:So what started? Just an add-ons in ERG. Then my boss said, okay, 10% of your role. And then our talent director says, no, you're doing quite a bit as a big impact, I'm being influenced. How about 20%? And then 20% of my role, and then later moved to Shanghai Disney Resort where I was the DEI manager for there, and then it was full time doing it and it was about. I know what it means to be excluded from a language perspective. I'm not from the region, I'm not from.
Speaker 2:China. But I also know, more importantly, what it means to be included and to have a sponsor, to have someone to say, come on in or just say, hey, wait a minute, everyone, let's speak in a language that everyone in this room can understand, and they know what that means and I know how that feels. More importantly, maya Angelou says at the end of the day, people will forget what you said or what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. And that, to me, is my why. For being a DEI professional practitioner and I don't like the word expert because I don't believe in DEI experts I really it's firmly, but don't believe in it because I don't think I could do this job effectively in the US, because my context is all in Asia.
Speaker 2:Yeah so it's a practitioner.
Speaker 1:You can't know everything in this space.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:There is so much to know and, yeah, the best you can be is curious and have an open mind and be willing to learn.
Speaker 2:I think and there's so much to do in this space. I think that's the thing there's so much to do and yeah, and I love that curiosity really leads. It leads me, I think it leads most of us in this space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what made you go? So you're at Disney, which is a fabulous company and creative and amazing to have on your resume to with no disrespect to Dale, because I have worked for companies like Dale and they've been fantastic for my career but such a shift. So what was the decision around that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I will forever be a Disney fan, huge Pixar Marvel fan, yeah, and I think one of the things I learned the most about from Disney in the journey was the power of storytelling. And for me, you know, I was leaving like as DEI manager, at the end of the park and then I was invited by Dow, which is just down the street at the time, to share about pride, you know, because again it's a little more sensitive topic in the country, and so we just shared a little bit about some of the things that we were doing. And when I came, it was their inclusion and diversity day, their IND days, and now we put inclusion first. So we say IND. And I came and I walked in and I was just like blown away. You could tangibly feel passion, you could tangibly feel authenticity, you could feel that sense of belonging. I was like whoa, this is real. And so, you know, we were sharing.
Speaker 2:But I kept in touch with the folks here at Dow and then the role came open for the regional inclusion leader, which was Asia Pacific, which for me at the time my scope was only China, and so I knew that would be a big role, shit, a growth, and I was excited to it because, when I walked in, authenticity is something that I very value, as well as transparency and integrity, and those were things that I really saw from not just the DEI person, not just the HR, but from business people and from everyone, and so I applied for the role again why not? And I got it. And I was like gosh, I got it, oh my gosh, what do I do now? And I will see like, as I joined Dow, the more I got into it, the more I learned, the more I saw that it was not just a program, you know, it was not just something that created to look good. It truly is part of the DNA, and that's why I, you know, I say I traded my ears from the diamond, the Mickey ears for the for the Dow diamond, you know.
Speaker 2:And because it is genuine, you know it starts from it, that only starts from the top down, but it really is also empowered from the bottom up, and so it is a genuine part of the business strategy, is part of the ambition, and, and also I will say that the thing I love about it, too, is like leading in the region.
Speaker 2:Dei looks different, and you definitely know this looks very different in Asia Pacific, that it looks like in the media and looks like in North America. And so having the autonomy to say what makes you go as a DEI, you know, as the regional leader, you go and do what makes sense in the region and let us empower you as a global company, let us empower you to do that and make that impact, is massive. And, you know, not a lot of folks get that, because I think one of our things in our regions, that language and culture are so prevalent but so different, you know. And so joining DAO was by far the best decision I made. As far as growing and I have made some mistakes, oh, good lord, yes, every day. I think that's part of the journey, you know.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, Do you know what? My experience of DAO is probably similar to yours. So when I was appointed as the head of DNI at Wall-E, we had recently employed a leader from DAO and he had been. He'd been in Asia I think he was the CEO of Southeast Asia and then and he might have worked in Australia as well, but most of his career had been at DAO and Wall-E employed him in a particular role. We were looking for chemical capability in a senior role, and so he was employed, and so I hadn't been in my DNI role very long and he he now resides in Melbourne and he came up to Singapore and I had heard a rumor that he was working with male champions of change in Australia. It's now called something different, I think it's champions of change something.
Speaker 1:But you know, I was so new to the work Actually I think I was still in a HR role and I was like, can you come talk to me? Will you tell me about the work you've done? And since then he's spoken twice on my course. I'm going to go see him in Melbourne soon, you know, in a few weeks. And he just gets this stuff and he gets that. He's not perfect. He gets all the challenges that happen in organizations. He doesn't get it right all the time. He ended up being the executive sponsor of the Pride Group at Wally and was by far the best executive sponsor, because he would just go make stuff happen.
Speaker 2:It was brilliant.
Speaker 1:So what you're saying about Dow, I feel like I've lived a bit of that. I've seen a leader come out of there who's had most of his career in the company and that you really get it, and I don't know if there's too many organizations like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm definitely very lucky. I think in the DEI journey it's sometimes you look at people that do, companies that do it. We call it DEI theater. Right, it looks good and flashy, but if you pull back you look at the data, you look at the metrics, you look at the everyday employee. There's no change or some impact. And I think, walking into any office, any site, any manufacturing site with Dow, everyone knows about IND, everyone's talking about it, so everyone's engaged to some degree or two level. And it's not a program, it's truly integrated and I think it's real, it's authentic. And, you're right, it's hard to find that genuineness. So I'm very lucky. I feel very, very, very lucky and the way that my personality is is that it makes us so much more work to do. You know you wanna say, oh, yeah, sure, go for it. And then like, oh my gosh, I have 10 programs going on and it's Thursday and it's all due tomorrow. You just keep going and going. But I think what I love is just seeing the impact on people, where you see people that you know.
Speaker 2:I was in Japan a couple of months ago and we were just having a real conversation with some of our manufacturing workers. You know they have really high ERG participation as we measure that on a monthly and quarterly basis. And then we go in and start talking about you know, why are you joining? And some of them are just like, kind of because my manager said, and so I was like you know what, scrap this whole PPT we're gonna go for, let's just talk about why our employee resource groups are important. You know, I was like how many of you ever, you know, know someone with a disability? You know, this is why we have our disability employee network, because maybe it's not an employee, but maybe it's a friend, maybe it's a family member, you know. And why should they have to be ostracized which happens a lot in Asia specifically, way more than probably in other regions because of a disability? But why should they not have that same opportunity to come and have a great career without Little?
Speaker 2:Did I know that one of our employees, you know, was a hearing impaired. That was there and she came up to me afterwards and I was just bowing and just tears crying and I was like, oh no, what did I say wrong? Oh, I'm so, I'm in so much trouble. And she pulled her hair back and she had these hearing aids, and she said thank you so much for what you said, because I have never felt different at all. I've always felt treated the same and like whoops, sorry, there they go, the goosebumps, you know. And I was like that's why I do what I do, you know, that's why we do what we do, because for her, that's not just impacting her, that's impacting her family, that's impacting her future, and she has a spirit of influence that continued to impact, you know, and I think that's the work and that's the unmeasurable about, and I think that's sometimes the hard part of our work, but it's also sometimes the most rewarding part of our work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's so right. It's those individual moments with people who come and say what a difference you've made and that thing you said, which you can't measure, like you can't put it in the P&L. I mean that stuff impacts the P&L, but yeah, that's the most satisfying part.
Speaker 2:That's the employee that's gonna be the most productive, that's gonna refer more of her friends, more of her spirit of influence of folks to the company. She's gonna be one of the best advocates for the company, internally, externally, no matter what, and that is priceless. You can't put a price tag on that, and so, therefore, that's how you put, that's part of the business case, you know, that's how you measure and that's the engagement, et cetera.
Speaker 1:So yeah, what are you optimistic about Curtis in your work?
Speaker 2:I'm a pretty optimistic person overall, so I like the fact that I think within Asia, I think at the moment, really, we're focusing a lot on mental health and wellbeing, both from an inclusion diversity but also an employee experience perspective. And so, coming out of COVID, over the past three years, coming out of COVID, I think one thing that we've seen in the world is that people are more open to talk about mental health and stress, et cetera, and I think in Asia context, it is something that has been traditionally pretty taboo. We don't talk about it because we have our personal life, we have our professional life, and this personal life stays in a box, it stays behind it's private, you know. But we're talking more about it, we're sharing more about that. This is very real and my lived experience could actually help to impact someone else, and so I'm really optimistic about the conversations that are happening, not just in China or Japan or Korea, but have it all throughout Asia Pacific, for within Dow, but also within other companies too, and I'm hopeful because that is going to hopefully help to eliminate some of those challenges that we see in Asia, especially in North Asia. There's a high suicide rate, there's lots of pressures around mental health, and so I'm very optimistic that the ways that this is going to be a continuous, that we're going to build on that understanding of the importance of mental health but also the importance of focusing on wellbeing as an individual, that I can say I need time, I need my vacation, I need to refuel and refresh, and that impacts people in different ways.
Speaker 2:We just did a session two weeks ago on sandwich generation and I find myself in that sandwich.
Speaker 2:You're here at this certain age usually they were up to those 35 and 50s or whatever you're managing up so you're caring for your parents my dad's, 80, aging, just had some major surgery and then for some folks they have children below them.
Speaker 2:For me, I have many, some nephews, so you have stress and pressures from both sides and so you're caught in the middle of the sandwich and so, whatever our family dynamic looks like because we all have such different, diverse families that sandwich generation we talked about. It had some real examples from our CFO sharing it's, from some of our country leaders sharing real, authentic conversations. That would not have happened two to three years ago, but now we're at a place where we openly talk about there and there's no shame and there's a psychological safety that's built in there, and so those are some of those foundational elements I'm excited about and that we continue to cultivate and nurture that. And I know that that's gonna influence not only internally with the doubt, but it's also going to carry out, it's gonna spill over, that's gonna impact our customers, that's gonna inspect our friends, et cetera.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you know, when I moved to Asia in 2014, and I can remember saying to the managing director that I was working with in Singapore and asking do you have an employee assistance program? So you know a number that employees can call and speak to a psychologist or a counselor if they were struggling, and I was in a HR role and I would often refer people to that service if I couldn't help you know, I'm not a professional in that space and he said, oh, we don't do that in Asia. I'm like what? Oh, we don't have issues. It was basically, we don't have issues in Asia. I'm like pretty sure we do. We're all human and so if there's anything good to come out of a pandemic, I really think this is one of them. That not just in Asia, of course. I think this, that impact, has happened around the world, but yeah, in Asia, where I kind of think of as home, it's, it's so nice, and so I I love that you're, you're seeing such optimism around that work. It's very cool yeah.
Speaker 2:We just did. Um, I have to give a shout out because I'm a huge fan of are you okay? You know it comes out of Australia and it's such a simple message you know ask, listen, you know connect, you know make it a real conversation and just amazing how a simple conversation could really save a life, and I love their message. And you know, last year we did it in the region. We just did a one day are you okay Day in September, and this year we did a full week, um, you know, addressing different elements of mental health. You know, but the thing I love about that is from Australia, it's from our region, and so, again, it's like we support you.
Speaker 2:I want to see people in Asia Pacific really supported and elevated globally, cause I think you know we do, and I can say this because I'm from the US. You know we see a lot of this around the DEI space. Come from North America, you know, and there's reasons for that, you know. Um. So I think for us in Asia Pacific, we have to tell our story and elevate our folks. Elevators, you know. Elevate, are you okay? Elevate culture ministry. Elevate, lisa, you know elevate. You know what the work that's going on in this region and that comes through storytelling you know, and again.
Speaker 2:That goes back to my Disney days and I love. You know the power of storytelling, cause I tell you my story. That's no longer about an LGBT man, it's not longer about this. It becomes a witness. It's someone you know and you trust and you build, you know and that's how we change. And I think that's a secret key I'm not so secret to change management in this space, in DEI space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's why I talk to people on this podcast and I get lots of approaches from podcast agencies in the US with consultants and you know, people who wanting to sell their book or promote their business, and I'm okay with that to a point, but I always have to go back and go. I want the personal story. I don't care as much about the work that they're doing, although of course that's important, but we're trying to create personal connections and we're trying to create change through stories and so that if you hear a story about someone who hasn't been included, who has struggled because they're different to everyone else around them, you know they're the stories I want to tell. I'm not here to flog your book, right? Yeah, I'm happy to talk about your book, but I want to know about you, the individual.
Speaker 2:Because most likely, I think you both see that my story someone else can connect to, your story someone else can connect to, and that connection empowers or gives them hope, it gives them inspiration, it gives them encouragement. Yeah, and so that's, at the end of the day, that's what we want to see. We want to see more folks living their authentic self, being who they are and emblazipping where they are, wherever they call home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really loved what you said at the start. Around you know, I don't think we want people to be their whole self at work or bring their whole self at work. No one wants me screaming at my kids at work, Right, Like you don't want all of me, but you want to create places where people can feel like they belong and I love that differentiation. I think that is super cool, because I'm kind of sick of hearing, oh, bring your whole self to work. I'm like no, we don't want. You don't want that. You want the self who's at their best, who can contribute, who is a human, but you don't necessarily want them all.
Speaker 2:And I think this is a shift. I think it's a shift that's happening, you know, in the spaces. Because, like you said, yeah, if I bring my authenticity, I love it, because we were talking, we measure authenticity in our input engagements. Can I be your true self? And I love?
Speaker 2:I was having a conversation with one of our IND focal points and he said he was at Basin Korean because I don't want to be my authentic self, because, if I do, I want to be drinking on the job, I want to be cussing, I want to be rude, but I come to work because I'm professional.
Speaker 2:But the fact is that.
Speaker 2:So that's why I love that flip to say, no matter who you are, if you're having a good day, you're having a good day.
Speaker 2:If you're having a bad day, you're having a bad day, but that you can walk in the doors or log into your computer if you're working at home, and that you can still be, you can feel like you can belong, that you can have a bad day at work, that you can have a day that where you said you know what I feel like crap, I need to log off, I need to go home, I need some space, I need some me time and that that is okay, and I think that's a shift, and I think that's again coming out of that mental health focus as well. And so it's even a shift for me, because at first I said, yes, be your authentic self, be a you know all that. And now it's like, no, let us cultivate the workplace and then, whoever you are, you walk into the, that you are respected, and that's what it comes back to. It really comes down to that whoever walks in those doors, whoever logs in online, is respected for all of who they are.
Speaker 1:It has been so nice to talk to you, Curtis. I've been so excited about these for quite a while, thank you for coming and sharing your story and your very personal story and, yeah, I love seeing the work that you're doing at Dow.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, lisa. I love, I love our partnership, I love our friendship so much. And you know, and I think one of the things that I continue and I think why I do love to spread your message, is one that you write in your articles, such an authentic, and you write, the way that you speak, and I think you know we get a lot of corporate jargon and so it's an immediate personal connection. I didn't know when you, you know it makes it a lot better too. So I just want to say thank you for always being, you know, be genuine and speaking, speaking your voice, because it really resonates. You know, I forward it sometimes to my energy, leads and it makes it connects, and that's the most important day, because you know what then the day that's when it's about people or relationships. So I see you, you're a superstar, you're a dear friend, and just thanks for this chat.
Speaker 1:Thank you, oh, my goodness, thank you.