Embracing the Side Hustle.... with Dannie Lynn Fountain

Discover the unexpected power of keeping your day job with side hustle guru Dannie Lyn Fountain, as she unveils her journey and the critical importance of income diversification. Our conversation takes a deep dive into the synergies between ADHD, autism, and side hustling—a discussion that promises to enlighten and inspire. With Dannie's latest book, "Keep Your Day Job," she shares not just her own trials, including being fired for her entrepreneurial endeavors, but also hands-on strategies for balancing corporate life with your passions on the side. Her wisdom, akin to that of a side hustle cult leader, is both guiding and galvanizing, offering a candid look at the challenges and triumphs of juggling multiple pursuits.

Then, we peel back the layers on how ADHD and autism intersect in professional settings, discussing the strengths these conditions can contribute to our side hustles. I open up about my own path through ADHD and the eye-opening realization of being autistic, revealing how these characteristics can be harnessed for success rather than seen as obstacles. The conversation also covers the nuances of executive functioning and why workplace accommodations are critical, underscoring a potent synergy between ADHD hyperfocus and autistic special interests that can transform a side hustle into something extraordinary.

Closing out the episode, we celebrate the recognition of my article in a Harvard Business Review publication and confront the current state of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives. We address the troubling trend of companies sliding away from their DEI promises and stress the need for ongoing, authentic efforts to foster true cultural change. As the "original side hustle gal," Danny leaves us with a resonant message: to support the vast array of professional and personal choices we face and to come together for an annual progress share—a call to celebrate our diverse journeys in work, life, and everything in between.

The Culture Ministry exists to create inclusive, accessible environments so that people and businesses can thrive.

Combining a big picture, balanced approach with real-world experience, we help organisations understand their diversity and inclusion shortcomings – and identify practical, measurable actions to move them forward.

Go to https://www.thecultureministry.com/ to learn more

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome to A Dog Called Diversity, and this week I have a repeat guest, danny Lee Fountain. Welcome back.

Speaker 2: 0:11

How are you, I'm so good. Thank you so much for having me back.

Speaker 1: 0:16

Gosh, it's an absolute pleasure. Because I don't know if I have favourites on my podcast, because that's a bit like saying you have a favourite child and that depends on the day really, but I was so looking forward to speaking with you again and you came on the podcast in February 2023 and you came.

Speaker 1: 0:41

we spoke about a whole lot of things, but you came and spoke about weight discrimination, which was the first person I'd ever had speak about that topic, I think, which was really helpful. And I invited you back because I saw a super exciting post on LinkedIn that you have a new book coming out, and what I love about authors is that you do one book but then you have to do another book, and I feel like it's an obsession. And before we hit record, danny Lynn said to me you know, it's like getting a tattoo you can't just have one. So we first talked about your book, which was Ending Checkbox Diversity, which was a great title, but this book's a little bit different. So tell us a bit about this book that's coming out or about to be out.

Speaker 2: 1:40

Yes, oh my gosh. So the title of this book is Keep your Day Job, and that title comes from this place of. I mean, I've been a side hustler. I say on Instagram I'm the original side hustle gal. I don't always know about that, but I've been a side hustler for 15 years at this point, 16 years at this point, and all of my peers a good majority of my peers, who were side hustlers in 2008, in 2009, a 10 of them are full-time entrepreneurs now a 10 of them, and there's nothing wrong with that. But full-time entrepreneurship gets like all the glory I feel it does, and I just I wanted something for those of us who have zero interest in being a full-time entrepreneur, who have a deep passion for the dual income or the freedom or the flexibility or, to be frank, exist in a system that is structured in such a way that full-time entrepreneurship is not an option for us also. So the subtitle of the book is Leverage your Side Hustle to Grow your Corporate Career regardless of what HR says you can do Ironic, given that I work in HR.

Speaker 2: 3:07

But really this book is I'll call it Memoir Ask, because I talk a lot about my own experiences. I talk about getting fired twice in one year for having a side hustle right after I graduated undergrad. I talk about today and the macro environment of the last, I would say, like 24 months the tech industry layoffs and it was almost prophetic. Less than two weeks before the Google layoffs in January of 2023, I posted this Instagram post talking about all of my different income streams and how my Google income was only 43% of my income. And then the Google layoffs happened two weeks later and I just remembered having this feeling of like oh my gosh. And then co-workers, who obviously like follow me on Instagram, saw that post. Ever since then, I feel like all I've been doing is having conversations about diversification of income. So, basically, this book is if I was ever to be a cult leader, I would be the leader of the side hustle cult, and this book is my ploy to get you to join the cult of the side hustle.

Speaker 1: 4:22

Basically, Like the Bible.

Speaker 2: 4:27

Yes yes, it is Almost everything you need. Every mistake I've experienced, when to ask permission, when to ask forgiveness, all on that path to a sustainable, long-term side hustle.

Speaker 1: 4:42

Oh, I love that. Um, when. So tell us about when. When do you ask for permission and when do you ask for forgiveness? Because sometimes you're side hustle. You have to be out in the world with it. Not all of them, but some of them. You have to be kind of out in the world and putting yourself out there, even though you do have a full time job. So how have you managed that?

Speaker 2: 5:09

Yeah, um. So first of all, how do you manage that? Um, I name all of the time that I have a wife that enables my workaholicism and I have zero desire to have children, so, like, I am not the model example in that case. So we'll name that. Work life balance isn't really a thing. I literally took three months off work because I was burned out and recovering from surgery, but burnt out at the end of last year.

Speaker 2: 5:37

But asking for permission versus forgiveness is really about understanding the context, I mean the world we live in today, at least in the United States, non-competes are losing more and more of their teeth every single day, and I feel that that is a global shift too.

Speaker 2: 5:59

But for sure, in the United States, and at the same time, the influencer economy has a lot more weight than it ever has had before. Employers now have bought into the value of thought leadership. So many CEOs, so many CXOs, so many like senior leaders also have literally teams of people helping them become thought leaders, like in these big companies, and so in so many ways, like there is less permission needed now than ever. But I still always come back to if you're an accountant at your work and your basket weaving is a side hustle, you're probably good, but if you're an accountant at work and you want to be a bookkeeper on the side, tread carefully. So it really, even though we're living in like more and more and more and more of a accessible world, when it comes to having side hustles, it's all about how proximal it is to your day job and what the perception is, because perception always trumps reality when it comes to conflict of interest type things.

Speaker 1: 7:12

Yeah, yeah, look, I think, yeah, I agree with pretty much everything you said there and I can remember starting this podcast. Actually, I was working full time as the global head of DNA when I started this podcast and it's certainly a side hustle. It's a side hustle that doesn't bring an income stream directly per se, but still a side hustle. And you know I can remember thinking, oh my God, am I going to be challenged about. You know, when am I doing this? Am I doing it during work hours? And like I wasn't doing anything like that and I figured, while I was doing 6am calls and, you know, 10pm calls, then I could do stuff during the day, right, like that's fair.

Speaker 2: 8:00

I would say so.

Speaker 1: 8:02

Yeah, come on. So what are your side hustles? Tell us about yours, oh my, gosh.

Speaker 2: 8:12

yes, I'm actually going to have to pull up my latest update Instagram posts so that I don't miss any of them, but obviously I actually posted an Instagram story the other day. Someone was like does your employer ever get mad at you for how sassy you are on the internet? And I was like, well, I have 3W2 employers. Which one do you mean? So, so, so. Full time employment at Google Seasonally.

Speaker 2: 8:53

I'm a tax manager at TurboTax because I also have my enrolled agent license, which in the US is the license that lets you represent taxpayers in front of the internal revenue service. I coach rowing, which is a few hours a week, but that's my third W2. Then I have entrepreneurship, which, within entrepreneurship, is so many things. Within entrepreneurship is books, it's consulting, it's digital products. One of my very first side hustles was an Etsy shop selling digital planners a decade ago. There's still a trickle remnants of that kind of stuff out there. I very much claim resale platforms as a side hustle. The year I got married, I resold my wedding dress and a resale platform for pretty much how much I paid for it, like I love a good resale platform. And then I'm a support group leader in a community for people participating in bariatric surgery and along that journey. And then passive class action rebates, product rebates, class action lawsuits, product rebates, user research, affiliate income. So what is that? Seven buckets, I just said it's a lot.

Speaker 1: 10:22

It's a lot Bye. When we spoke in 2023, you talked a little bit about recently being diagnosed with ADHD and I think in some ways, having ADHD helps you do all the things. Oh yeah, so that's true.

Speaker 2: 10:48

Yes, yes.

Speaker 1: 10:51

But you've had a more recent diagnosis as well and I'm wondering if that would you like to talk a bit about that and how that came about, and is that helping or hindering, I guess, all the hustle?

Speaker 2: 11:03

Yeah, I was actually just having this conversation at work. My perception among my ADHD peers is that we feel a lot of guilt for hyperfixation, because when hyperfixation shows up at work, something that would take someone neurotypical three hours to do, I can do in 30 to 40 minutes. And then there's this perception that like, okay, well, you still owe the company two hours and 20 minutes and it's like no, I get to spend two hours and 20 minutes recharging my brain, but there's like guilt around that. But then, so funny enough, I received a workplace accommodation for my ADHD and my employer provided executive function coaching which, like, if you have access to it, could not recommend more highly.

Speaker 1: 11:56

That's so cool, so cool.

Speaker 2: 11:58

Yeah, but that has helped. I'm an unmedicated ADHD year and that executive functioning coaching has been amazing for me. Truly, that's like a whole separate conversation. I drink too much coffee so I'm not allowed to take stimulants, blah, blah, blah. But near the end of my engagement and this accommodation, the executive functioning coach said can I say something? And I was like, yeah, of course. And she's like so I think you might be autistic. And I was like, oh, cool, cool, cool. And this was like December 2021. And so then I get on the process. I get on waitlist.

Speaker 2: 12:44

I live in Seattle, which is home to the University of Washington's Adult Autism Research Center, but it's a research center, it's not a diagnostic facility, so, so annoying. But so I go on the study of diagnosis and in May 2023, I finally have my diagnostic appointment and at the end of the diagnostic appointment, the doctor goes. So I knew with them like five minutes that you were autistic, but also you're like 99 percentile for like five out of the six criteria. So yes, obviously. And then I've been on this whole journey for the past year, learning about things like unmasking, and so all of this to say you take the special interests of autism and the hyper focus of ADHD and that is literally a recipe for like supreme side hustle. Because, like you hear my two main things right. You hear about my day job, which is in disability accommodations, and then you hear that I seasonally am a manager at TurboTax and you're like, how do tax and disability accommodations go together? But like my brain.

Speaker 1: 14:05

I wanted to ask you that.

Speaker 2: 14:08

Most of all they don't. But fine, like, personal finance is a special interest, which then led to like unnecessarily knowing far too much about all things money and. But like because there's special interests, the like depth of the wells of this information is, the capacity is endless, basically. So yes to the long and the short of the answer to your question. I perceive that ADHD and autism is like the super juice recipe to being a multi bucket side hustle.

Speaker 1: 14:47

Right, I wanted to ask you how did your coach, I guess, pick up that you might be autistic, like what was what? How were you showing up in that space for her to know that?

Speaker 2: 15:02

Yeah, so I was diagnosed combination ADHD, which is not uncommon. But when you've layered on top of it conversations around executive functioning, everything I was talking about in the executive functioning space had a relation to social aversion. So, like I had a strong preference for asynchronous communication, I had a strong preference for receiving feedback and writing. I liked to pack all of my video calls on one day and have the rest of the week be free, if I can, because I found video calls to be so exhausting. And the more we're talking about all of this, she's like, yeah, I have tools and resources for these things, but like this isn't just ADHD, like ADHD doesn't have, for it's different for everyone. You've met one autistic ready HD person. You've met one autistic ready HD person, but the social aversion was so much stronger than okay At average, I guess Okay, and so it was really all of these factors around social aversion that was like, hmm, there's something more here.

Speaker 1: 16:19

Okay, yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:20

Wow.

Speaker 1: 16:21

Wow, no-transcript. I just like, I just think you've got superpowers and you. You're amazing. I'm really curious because since we spoke last time, you have a new job at Google and you know Google are out there, along with a couple of other organizations, as kind of leading the way in diversity and inclusion work, both internally but also externally, in what Google shares to the world free resources that everyone can pick up. So there's incredible stuff. So tell us about your new role and what do you get to do there?

Speaker 2: 17:01

Yeah, I. So the team that I'm on in 2019 was just like three people, and now there are 12, 13, roughly of us.

Speaker 1: 17:14

And was that the I am remarkable team.

Speaker 2: 17:17

So this is the specific disability accommodations team. So the 11, 13 of us handle all the disability accommodations for all 200,000 plus Google employees whatever that number is, I'm sure you can Google the specific number but so on. But literally on a day in, day out basis. We're supporting Google employees in pursuing disability accommodations and, obviously, having ADHD, having autism. I had been on the client side of this team as a client going through the accommodations process and now to be on this side, it's very, very, very cool to be. We say in the book, community own voices. It's very cool to be an own voices employee in this space and with a disability, working on disability accommodations, providing disabled Googlers accommodations to make their jobs better. Yeah, it's so cool.

Speaker 1: 18:24

So I've worked with some organizations who've gone through a process of trying to create inclusive environments for people with disabilities, and often what happens in big organizations is they want a really clear process. They might want a catalog of equipment that people with disabilities might need, and you know, leaders often don't want to be bothered with it all right. So they want structure and process and make it easy. We can't be bothered with it. How does Google do that differently? Because, in my experience, just because you need a certain type of headset for one person, or a particular chair for another person, or some technology so that someone can contribute online more effectively, the next person needs something different again, and it may not be a piece of equipment, it might be lighting. There's a whole range of things, right. So how do you deal with the ambiguity and the complexity of supporting your employees?

Speaker 2: 19:36

So I read this stat recently, I think it was on a United Nations fact sheet 56% of accommodations are $0 cost. So, for example, employees with chronic illness, offering them flexible work schedules, work remote as an accommodation Clearly I have thoughts on that one, but 56% of accommodations are $0 cost and it's engaging in that interactive process with employee and manager just to craft the best thing that fits them $0 cost. But then, when it comes to tools and resources, there's obviously like a security concern, right, because a lot of these tools are often third party. If we're talking software and if we're talking hardware, it's having an inventory process, like managing all of the different things. I mean, as we're talking today, one of the accommodations that I actually have is a remarkable notebook because I need to take handwritten notes, so like managing the process of getting someone a remarkable notebook and that is. That is a very complex process, it is a very intense process, but my personal opinion is like the catalog approach is the wrong way to think about it.

Speaker 2: 21:06

It's more the it's more the we don't know what employees are going to need. We're the employee. Let's say the average employee starts in a company at age 22,. Let's say the average 22 year old has been living with their disability for 22 years. They know what they need better than we can ever describe. Even me, at 29 years old last year, getting diagnosed with autism, I knew what I needed better than any company could ever tell me. So in my opinion, it's creating a process to organize. The ambiguity is like way more important than having a catalog or a menu of services or you know, and then, once you start to see repeatable things that come up that make sense in the context of like what your company does, yes, yes, sure, sure, like processify those things, but until then, like just just structure your, your interactive discussion process.

Speaker 1: 22:11

Basically, yeah, yeah, I'm totally aggrieved, but I've seen that, yeah, the challenges of leaders just like, just make it easy. Just tell me, tell me and I'll. Yeah, I'll go do it. It doesn't work that way, because humans are all different, exactly.

Speaker 2: 22:31

And like no two people need the same accommodation, so even two people with the same condition probably won't need the same accommodation.

Speaker 1: 22:40

No, exactly, yeah, yeah. So this year 2024 is a really big year for you. Oh my gosh, and I'm like I need some of your magic. So not only do you have a book coming out all about side hustles and how they're great for you, you've got a paper being published and you've got an article coming out in a book. So tell us about the paper first. So exciting.

Speaker 2: 23:17

Yes, so there is an academic journal doing a special issue on neurodiversity and so this paper is like so serendipitous my undergraduate academic advisor, my doctoral dissertation advisor and I so the three of us collaborated on this paper, so it was like bringing two academic worlds together. But the paper that we wrote is on disability accommodations in the higher ed space. So more than 50% of students in higher ed space are requested, have a need for accommodations and 80 some percent of those who are requesting accommodations are being accommodated. So in the higher ed space we've created a culture where you will be accommodated and it's very clear and it's very normal, and those accommodations carry with you all four, six, graduate school 10 years.

Speaker 1: 24:18

That's so cool. Yes, that is so cool, because most organizations are way behind those kind of percentages.

Speaker 2: 24:23

Yes, and it's creating a cliff and so our paper is on the cliff.

Speaker 2: 24:30

We actually the fun part of the title is headed for collision.

Speaker 2: 24:36

It's because we're talking about, let's say, starting with, like the class of 2026, let's say there's been like a very normalized understanding that accommodations are just like another part of the school process, same as like filling out for your dorm room or filling out for your meal plan, and they're going to transition into the corporate world where, like it's not common, you have to search the company intranet. It's not something that is necessarily proactively getting taken care of before you start. So you're going to have to work for a few weeks before you and you're already going to know what you need because you had it as a student. But making sure it all gets replicated one for one is going to be a whole process. So our academic paper created a framework for how organizations can evaluate, like, what they're offering and how can they streamline that on boarding process, how can they remove barriers, how can the transition be made seamless so that there isn't this cliff experience. So we're hoping it gets accepted because I think it's a really important topic.

Speaker 1: 25:45

I think it is too, and I think for students, getting your first job out of university, college is on my mentors occasion, and it's hard because you're moving into a different environment and having to advocate for yourself in an environment that's maybe not going to be too friendly. You know, not set up to provide accommodations, it's pretty tough. So, yeah, what an amazing topic. I'm sure I'll see when that one comes out. You also wrote an article last year for Harvard Business Review, like my hero, and it's going to be published in a book. Is that what's happening?

Speaker 2: 26:31

Yes, this was the coolest thing ever. So I literally I wrote this article January of last year. It was like in support of anything, checkbox diversity. When that came out and I wrote it, it was amazing Yay, you have an article on Harvard Business Review. And like that was kind of the end of it. And then last fall I literally was on leave from Google, like recovering from having surgery, and I get this email. That's like we're publishing your article in a Harvard Business Review book. And I was like what? So, yeah, in May, harvard Business Review is publishing a book called Authenticity, identity and being Yourself at Work and that article from last year is going to be chapter six.

Speaker 1: 27:19

I know, it's so cool. It's so cool, that is so cool, so cool. And is that? Is it just the glory, or do they also? Do they compensate you? No? No no, it's just for the glory. That was just the glory.

Speaker 2: 27:36

But it looks amazing. Yeah, this book is over 200 pages and it's talking about what authenticity means at work. What values do I want to bring into the workplace? How do I take control of my professional identity? Imposter syndrome when should you conform to company culture? When should you stand out? So all of the chapters that they've put in this book really just seem so cool in terms of supporting this like new way of thinking about working. So, as much as I would love another paycheck, like it's just cool, it's just so cool.

Speaker 1: 28:13

It's so cool, so so cool. Congratulations.

Speaker 2: 28:17

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 28:20

And finally, I want to talk a bit about what you termed and I love the term as the DEI apocalypse. What is that?

Speaker 2: 28:32

Oh, my gosh, Lisa, if I read one more article.

Speaker 2: 28:35

yes, If I read one more article about DEI is dead or like the black squares of 2020 are no more, just basically, basically what we're seeing, which isn't surprising. Anyone who knows anything about DEI work saw this coming in 2020. But basically, 2020, huge splash in the pan, to use like a gross phrase DEI work gets some of its most visibility in modern day. Companies come out, make tons of commitments, make financial statements, make promises about what they're going to do. It's four years later. Where is it? I think Chase committed like $8 billion. Another company committed $12 billion. They made all of these big commitments and all of them had like 2025 timelines right, nice, easy, clean. Five years, none of them have materialized.

Speaker 2: 29:40

And at the same time, we're seeing conversations in the workplace, we're seeing the impact, at least in the states, of the affirmative action decision, and so, to put it lightly, it's like a DEI apocalypse, in so much that there is now a popular culture excuse to walk backwards from the advancements that started in 2020, because everyone else is walking backwards from them too, and it's like, ok, that's not how this work works. You don't walk away when it gets hard. You don't walk away when it's not sexy anymore, you don't, and so that term apocalypse is just because, unfortunately, this work is cyclical, because it's perceived as a nice to have, not a must have, and then it gets tied to social movements, their cultural lightning moments, and so again, nobody in the work is surprised, but there's an apocalypse.

Speaker 1: 30:56

Yeah, I'm seeing it and I think there's two things for me. One is this work is change management and it's culture change management and organizations are always talking about culture and how we need to change our culture, how we need to do this, how we need to do that. So for me, it's part of that work. So when you're backing off it, then what kind of culture are you going to have? Are you saying to your people, oh, we don't care about that anymore? Clearly? And I think that piece around the social bit, like when something happens in the world, oh, we've got to be seen to supporting that.

Speaker 1: 31:37

So we saw lots of organizations in the US go after the decision around abortion oh, we'll support women, but then it's gone. So then what's the next thing that happens in our environment that we're going to go? Oh, we'll go support this. Now it gets like if we just stay the course and keep working when it gets hard and it is hard, and sometimes we'll go backwards, but hopefully, if we keep working at it, we will go forward. Yeah, yeah it's hard.

Speaker 2: 32:12

I even just think about the impact of if you aren't living with an experience, you don't understand what that experience means. It took me getting diagnosed with autism to learn and understand that autism can be a barrier to immigration in some countries, and I considered myself someone very aware of immigration challenges. I considered myself someone very aware of DEI challenges, and it took me being diagnosed with autism to understand what that meant and I think that that's the other piece of it is that we're so quick to take action when we really need to be listening more. Like would this? Would everything with the DEI apocalypse have more longevity if we had listened to what people were telling us they needed four years ago and acted on that first? Because, as great as it is, chief diversity officers weren't the answer. Executive leadership wasn't the biggest problem. You know, cool, there's another senior leader making millions of dollars. Like great. How did that change my life?

Speaker 1: 33:54

Yeah, it doesn't and it didn't and yeah, all of that, yeah, thank you for sharing that, and I also.

Speaker 2: 34:09

I also realize who. I just said that to you, so I'm with you.

Speaker 1: 34:15

I'm with you. Yeah, it's very, very hard, very hard, but I wanted, I wanted to, I guess, come and end on a really positive note, and I can't wait for your book, to get my hands on your book. What, why should people read your book? And and what do you want them to take away from your book? Your, your side hustle book yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2: 34:52

First of all, I recognize a name that, like the multi hustle, life isn't and can't be for everyone, like there are reasons it shouldn't be there, reasons it can't be fully, name that. Also, we can have a whole separate conversation around how like overwork is, like should be an addiction, like should be classified as addiction. But it's supposed to be. Wrapping up with a positive note here. What I would say is, whether or not you start a side hustle, whether or not you would diversify your income, I would like for you to walk away, being aware that there are other tools for financial safety and also having context that the like full-time entrepreneurship unicorn billionaires start up and in fact it's very few entrepreneurs.

Speaker 1: 35:58

Yeah, yeah, what I call the bro model of entrepreneurship, yeah yeah, yes.

Speaker 2: 36:07

So basically, just honestly, I want you to walk away from ending checkbox diversity and keep your day job just with more empathy for, like, different people's choices. Yeah, yeah, that's like I guess the through thread is. Here is another opportunity for you.

Speaker 1: 36:27

You deepen your well of empathy really that's what this podcast is about. It was, yeah, it was about building kindness and empathy. So, yeah, if you don't understand someone's experience, you can come and learn how they, how they experience the world and what the challenges are. What's, what's the great stuff that's going on for them.

Speaker 2: 36:48

Yeah, yeah, that's a great message thank you so much, danny Lynn.

Speaker 1: 36:53

It's been so nice to see you and talk to you again, not that the listeners will see you thank you so much for having me back.

Speaker 2: 37:01

We almost at this point, need to make this like an annual thing.

Speaker 1: 37:04

I know we could do that, we could do a check-in. I love it I can I could be really like MBS of everything you've achieved. Last time I spoke with you, oh, or we can like the. Taylor Swift of DEI, the other day where this woman goes like can you tell me the secret? Like, how do you do the world tours and the re-recordings and the? And now you've recorded a new album and you've written a new album, and could you just let me know? Just, is it coffee, oh? And?

Speaker 2: 37:39

also flying across the world to support your boyfriend at the top of his career too.

Speaker 1: 37:50

I just saw um because she's. I've been following her because she's in Melbourne and Sydney at the moment. I'm so jealous I can't be there. And then she went out nightclubbing last night with her support acts Sabrina Carpenter, and I'm like yeah, so you're like the DEI, but that Taylor Swift of DEI you can put that on LinkedIn as your title.

Speaker 2: 38:10

I was gonna say I keep saying the original side, hustle gal. Maybe I really should be saying the Taylor Swift of DEI oh gosh, there's something there, thank you, thank you.