Dr. Ellen Joan Ford is an impressive person. Her extraordinary life has taken her from the green pastures of New Zealand to the icy expanses of Antarctica.
Her decade of service as an engineer officer in the New Zealand Army is filled with tales of igloo-building, leading humanitarian efforts, and the challenges that come with being a woman in a traditionally male-dominated environment. But Ellen's journey doesn't end with her military career; she's made groundbreaking strides in military leadership research, advocating for authentic leadership and policies to support military parents, leading to real cultural shifts within the Army.
Navigating the complexities of leadership, especially within the rigid structures of the military, demands a nuanced understanding that Ellen has mastered. Her research sheds light on the prevalence of gender biases and the normalization of sexual harm, offering a blueprint for organizational change that centers on creating a sense of belonging, autonomy, and purpose.
This conversation with Ellen is not just an exploration of her personal endeavors but a deep dive into the systemic issues at play and the actionable solutions she proposes for a more inclusive workplace.
Here at The Culture Ministry we think people who write books are the cleverest people, so we couldn't wait to hear how Ellen's research and passion translates into her book #WorkSchoolHours: A Revolution for Parents, Workplaces and the World.
Ellen's vision for a world where parents and leaders can create compassionate, accommodating work environments resonates deeply, offering practical steps towards change.
Listen in to to learn Ellen's story, her initiatives, and how her book is challenging the status quo of work and leadership.
Connect with Ellen here.
The Culture Ministry exists to create inclusive, accessible environments so that people and businesses can thrive.
Combining a big picture, balanced approach with real-world experience, we help organisations understand their diversity and inclusion shortcomings – and identify practical, measurable actions to move them forward.
Go to https://www.thecultureministry.com/ to learn more
If you enjoyed this episode and maybe learnt something please share with your friends on social media, give a 5 star rating on Apple podcasts and leave a comment. This makes it easier for others to find A Dog Called Diversity.
A Dog Called Diversity is proud to be featured on Feedspot's 20 Best Diversity And Inclusion Podcasts
Thanks for listening. Follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook.
Dr. Ellen Joan Ford is an impressive person. Her extraordinary life has taken her from the green pastures of New Zealand to the icy expanses of Antarctica.
Her decade of service as an engineer officer in the New Zealand Army is filled with tales of igloo-building, leading humanitarian efforts, and the challenges that come with being a woman in a traditionally male-dominated environment. But Ellen's journey doesn't end with her military career; she's made groundbreaking strides in military leadership research, advocating for authentic leadership and policies to support military parents, leading to real cultural shifts within the Army.
Navigating the complexities of leadership, especially within the rigid structures of the military, demands a nuanced understanding that Ellen has mastered. Her research sheds light on the prevalence of gender biases and the normalization of sexual harm, offering a blueprint for organizational change that centers on creating a sense of belonging, autonomy, and purpose.
This conversation with Ellen is not just an exploration of her personal endeavors but a deep dive into the systemic issues at play and the actionable solutions she proposes for a more inclusive workplace.
Here at The Culture Ministry we think people who write books are the cleverest people, so we couldn't wait to hear how Ellen's research and passion translates into her book #WorkSchoolHours: A Revolution for Parents, Workplaces and the World.
Ellen's vision for a world where parents and leaders can create compassionate, accommodating work environments resonates deeply, offering practical steps towards change.
Listen in to to learn Ellen's story, her initiatives, and how her book is challenging the status quo of work and leadership.
Connect with Ellen here.
The Culture Ministry exists to create inclusive, accessible environments so that people and businesses can thrive.
Combining a big picture, balanced approach with real-world experience, we help organisations understand their diversity and inclusion shortcomings – and identify practical, measurable actions to move them forward.
Go to https://www.thecultureministry.com/ to learn more
If you enjoyed this episode and maybe learnt something please share with your friends on social media, give a 5 star rating on Apple podcasts and leave a comment. This makes it easier for others to find A Dog Called Diversity.
A Dog Called Diversity is proud to be featured on Feedspot's 20 Best Diversity And Inclusion Podcasts
Thanks for listening. Follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook.
Welcome to A Dog Called Diversity. And this week I have the most incredible guest and I'm pretty sure I say that every week, but you know I only have incredible people on my podcast. But this week I have Dr Ellen Joan Ford coming to speak with me and you know, when I first started looking at all the stuff that Ellen does, I was just blown away and I had to have her on the podcast. She's also written a really, really cool book, which we're going to talk about a bit later. But welcome to the podcast, ellen. It's great to have you.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Lisa, for the listeners, because I have people come on the podcast from all over the world. Where are you based? Tell us a bit about your part of the world.
Speaker 2:Oh, so, new Zealand based in the Manawa too. So I grew up in a little place called Collison, which is just out of fielding, and that's where I am now. So I lived away for quite some time and then came back. Yeah, so that's where I am.
Speaker 1:That's cool, what some you know. When I was moving to New Zealand, people would say to me oh my goodness, new Zealand is such a beautiful country, I'm so jealous. So what is really beautiful about your part of New Zealand?
Speaker 2:Oh, I love the Manawa too, so it doesn't really get a great reputation as being the tourist destination of New Zealand. It's not, although, to be fair, though, there actually are heaps of cool things to do in Manawa too, especially like outdoor. There's lots of amazing walks and tracks. But what I love about Manawa, too, is that it's got everything you need. So it's got everything you could possibly want to live on your day to day. There's no traffic. It's really affordable for housing compared to, say, you know, the big cities. But Manawa, too, so central, so it's easy to get to Wellington. It's an easy flight to Auckland. You can nice head across to Hawkes Bay. The beach is only half an hour away, the mountains just away. So it's, yeah, I love it. It's central to all the other tax-culturacy destinations.
Speaker 1:Oh sounds gorgeous. I'll have to come. I love it. It's so lovely, cool. Well, I can't wait to hear a bit more about you because you have had such an interesting and varied career and I think your book, which we'll definitely get to, is going to be so helpful for so many women, so many parents, so men and women, but also, I think, for organisations as well. So, but why don't you start telling us a bit about your career? Because you've had a really probably a non-traditional career in some ways. But yeah, tell us about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I, when I finished high school, I joined the army, so I spent 10 years in the New Zealand army. I served as an engineer officer. I was so incredibly lucky, lisa, I spent seven of my 10 years outside of New Zealand, so she spent a lot of time. I did all my training on exchange in Australia, which was just very lucky, and then once I'd graduated I got to go. I'm like I feel like I'm bragging. I was honestly, lisa, I was so lucky so went to Antarctica, let a team join construction tasks down there and we got to do a cool like adventure training stuff down there. So we built igloos and lived in them just amazing. And I did an exchange to the UK, so spent time leading British British soldiers, which was another really neat experience.
Speaker 2:Lots of trips around the Pacific, so New Zealand defense forces often deployed to do sort of humanitarian aid and disaster relief tasks. So spent, yeah, quite a few months in total in various nations in the Pacific. One was a. There was a drought in Tuvalu and so I led a team over there where we were converting salt water to drinking water and distributing, distributing it around the island. So that was all amazing. And probably the biggest highlight was my operational deployment, which was to Afghanistan, so spent seven months there leading construction soldiers. We were doing construction tasks in the New Zealand bases, but also working with locals to do construction projects in the community, so that's a bit of a amazing news in the army, um, yeah, loved it, just lead amazing soldiers primarily doing construction tasks around New Zealand and overseas. So just such a yeah, just lucky gosh.
Speaker 1:I was so fortunate, it was really fun that sounds amazing and I don't think any of that's bragging, and I love people coming on my podcast. You just talk about all the amazing things they've gotten to do. So, um, but tell me a bit about the leadership experience you got from being in the army. How how has that shaped you now?
Speaker 2:yes, so I mean, it's played a huge role. So, as I loved the opportunity to lead in the army it was an incredible opportunity to practice and experience leadership I most certainly mucked up. On occasion I worked for a second. Pretend I was got it right I didn't. But I learned a lot, and one of the things I remember, which sort of ties into the next part of my career, which I'll sort of link them in, is so I, I'm a woman, and not that many of us in the army, surprise, and and so in my particular unit, I was, um, I was, you know, I only ever had male bosses.
Speaker 2:My soldiers were, uh, all men with one exception. So, basically, I was working with men all day, every day, and what I realized is that I'm not going to be like the other male bosses they've had, because I'm not a man, and so, um, instead of trying to be like what they've had in the past, I realized that the best way that I could actually lead my soldiers was to be me, and so I'm different to their previous male boss, um, not just because of my gender, but even my, my approach. So I'm, I'm friendly, I'm bubbly, I'm uh, you know, I'm, I'm confident, but I'm not necessarily the typical army boss who's very kind of commanding, very authoritative, very sort of firm. That that's not my approach and I just found that the more I was me and led authentically, the better results I actually got. So I had far better connections with my soldiers and achieved far better mission outcomes. So that was a really big lesson about leadership. And then, oh boy, is reset. But I can then talk how that led into the research.
Speaker 1:That's sort of where I got to now look, I think that's such a great leadership lesson that, no matter who you are, you've got to lead authentically and from your place of leadership. I was actually wondering how you transitioned from the army, because 10 years in the army and getting to do all those amazing things you know that I guess was that a hard transition? Or like, how did you move from being in the army to doing other things?
Speaker 2:yes, so actually that's a really good question, lisa. I feel like my transition out of the army was actually pretty smooth. I know that some military veterans actually have a hard road transitioning and so I, you know I have a lot of care and support for all military veterans and and so you know, not everybody necessarily has a simple transition. But my final role in the army it was very cool actually. I was working in recruiting and it was specialist recruiting where we would, we were basically recruiting people from overseas, so from the British army. Very cool got to do a roadshow all around the UK showing them why New Zealand's great um, it wouldn't be much of a sell right because in my experience, so many people want to come here oh yeah so it was easy, yeah it was definitely.
Speaker 2:We were inundated actually with applications so, but that was really fun. But in that particular role my last year in the army I was working with it was tri-service, meaning that I was also working with Navy and Air Force personnel and also civilian personnel, and it was quite a. It was a much more kind of a corporate type role. So even you know, I wasn't wearing my camouflage uniform every day in that job. I was working in a Wellington office and it was a far more kind of a civilian or non-military type environment. So I actually think that was a really good experience to have that. As I came out of the army and also because I sort of wasn't like what some people think of when they think of a typical kind of like a drill sergeant very regimental that wasn't me, and so therefore the transition into non-military life was not too much of a challenge yeah, why did you want to leave?
Speaker 1:like what was the decision process to leave?
Speaker 2:So after 10 years I had kind of done what I wanted to achieve. So my biggest goal was to lead soldiers and to deploy on operations overseas, and by that stage I had done that and loved it. The other thing is I also knew that, so that I was 28 when I left the army. I knew that I wanted to have children at some point and while there are lots of people who are parents in the army, for me personally I didn't want to do that. It's not always necessarily that stable in terms of your location and so when I was in my 20s and basically you know no dependents, being called to deploy at the drop of a hat was exciting and I loved it and so very fun and lots of adventures. But I just wanted a bit more stability in my life going forward after that in terms of having a bit more control over where I live, the hours that I'm working and that kind of thing. So they were sort of the reasons that I decided to start a new career.
Speaker 1:How did you know what you wanted to do next?
Speaker 2:So I did it. I just knew that I was really passionate about leadership, so I loved my experiences leading in the army and I was really interested in what makes people tick, what makes people feel good about themselves at work and therefore do their best work. So, as I left, I worked in a logistics company for a couple of years in a leadership role and then as a business consultant for NZTE Trade and Enterprise, which is effectively helping exporting businesses, and so that was sort of my day job and that was fun. I really enjoyed both of those roles. They were really great, lots of great things but my passion was actually the thing I was doing at night time. So I, as I transitioned out, I did my MBA and then my PhD, both focused on leadership, and when I did that, that's what got me, which I can talk about in a moment.
Speaker 2:I need to shut up in between because I know I talk so long.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, it's so interesting. Please don't.
Speaker 2:But it was yeah, it was this research journey that got me more and more kind of excited about what I wanted to do, actually when I, you know, when I grow up and I kind of feel like I found that now, but it was the, it was actually the research journey off the back of the Army experience that really kind of shaped that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so tell us about your PhD and your research topic and how that's led to what you're doing now.
Speaker 2:So the PhD was focused on leadership and the honest truth of Lisa. When I did it it wasn't because I actually wanted to solve some problem, I just I did an MBA and I thought, oh, wouldn't it be cool to do like the next academic thing?
Speaker 1:and it was just the bug.
Speaker 2:I mean, I kind of did. It was sort of more of a personal challenge and I thought that'd be kind of cool. And then you know you have to pick a topic, so it was just okay. Well, what topic can I pick to help me achieve this qualification that I want? And so I thought we'll leadership really interested in that and you have to narrow down your topic. So I thought, well, I'll do women in leadership because, well, I am one, and that narrows it down. And the case study that I did was leadership experiences of women in the military because, very pragmatic reasons, I had good access to participants and I knew something about the topic. So that was the starting point. It was yet this topic will help me achieve this qualification.
Speaker 2:But when I started actually doing the research, that is when my passion was ignited. So I interviewed all these women leaders from the Army and really important to say this, lisa, just like myself, they had so many great things to say about the Army. So the amazing camaraderie, the, the travel, the training, the exciting adventures that you get to have. So so many positives about the time in the Army, as had I. But what came out of that was these recurring negative gender related challenges that women were having, and that also caused me to reflect on my own experiences. So, while I'm still incredibly proud and grateful for my military service, I kind of realized that maybe not everything had been as sunshine and rainbows as I had liked to think, and it kind of put me in this position where I was a bit. I was a bit irritated actually and, lisa, this is a theme you that I'm gonna I get pissed off and I want to do something about it. So I was kind of thinking I love the Army so much, but I'm really disappointed to learn that they're not actually treating all of their people as well as they could, and so I think they can do better, and so I ended up moon lighting.
Speaker 2:So at this stage I was working at trade and enterprise as a business consultant for exporters, and I also was working in an advisory role working directly to the chief of the New Zealand Army, general John Boswell he's amazing and his senior leadership team and I spent 18 months effectively. You know I broke it down into themes to not kind of give them, you know, everything in one hit and talk them through the findings of the research, but then, more importantly, the recommendations for how they could make improvements. And I'm not gonna say, oh Lisa, I've solved the Army. That would be an exaggeration, but I'm actually. I actually am genuinely proud and heartened that the Army did listen to a number of the recommendations that I've made. They've made some tangible changes and they do have a pretty significant program of work to continually look at addressing and improving the culture in the Army. So that was amazing.
Speaker 1:What was some of those things like, what were some of those key recommendations that you saw them actually take on board and do something about?
Speaker 2:yeah. So one of them is a really simple one and it's funny, you think, gosh, why did that even need to be a recommendation? But one of the findings was that advertising material for the Army it's full of images of me and if you want to attract women you know it's starts when they're school girls you actually need to have pictures of women, and not just women doing administrative yeah, I know who thought, who would have thought but not just women doing, you know, kind of desk based work, but actually women in camouflage uniforms and wearing camouflage cream on their face and and that kind of thing. So that was just one of the recommendations, the kind of the other themes. There was a big theme and finding around sexual harm, which I mean, that's probably not a surprise, and so there was a lot of recommendations around addressing that from a cultural perspective. It starts with valuing all people within the organization, and if there's a culture that kind of considers women as less than or secondary, that's when these nasty things like gender discrimination and sexual harm happen. So there was a lot of work around that.
Speaker 2:The other two big topics, which are the two actually that kind of lead into what I'm doing now. One was around this concept of authentic leadership and leadership approaches. So the military trains very specific types of leaders and the recommendation was actually to broaden that training. So, yes, it's important for military leaders to be great at strategy. They need to be really good at being decisive. They need to be able to command in a battle situation.
Speaker 2:All of that's important, but what also needs to be added to the training is those people skills, so how to develop relationships, how to work in a collaborative way with other stakeholders. So so there's a kind of a whole big sort of topic around approaches to leadership and authenticity. And the other big recommendation, which very much leads into what I'm doing now, is how do they provide much better support to their parents? So if you've got people in the military which had to deploy and they had to spend time away from home, what can they do to lessen that burden as much as possible and provide more and more support so that it's not kind of impossible to be a family member and a military member?
Speaker 1:Like, as you were talking, I've got a couple of things in my head. The first one that's really hit me is the challenges and the recommendations that you made to the army would apply to any organisation in my experience, right, yes, any organisation, and I mean even the sexual harm one. I mean Australia's just done some massive research projects with government and organisations to really understand sexual harm and what's going on within organisations. So that was the first thing that struck me that the work that you're doing applies very broadly.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that you said it by the way, lisa Well yeah, I think sometimes the military sometimes gets pulled up on particular, particular gender issues, but I think it's important for people to understand that these issues exist much more broadly in the community and in our organisations. So that was the first thing. I mean even support to parents. You know I've worked in roles where I've travelled a lot, so I might not be taken away from my family for seven months, but I might be away for a whole week or two weeks, and that puts a burden on your partner when that happens, and so you know you'd have to bring in lots of things to make sure everything would still be working when you've got little kids or even older children. That's the first thing. The other thing I wanted to ask you when you were doing the research and going talking to women who were currently in military service. I'm wondering if it made.
Speaker 1:Well, I think you said it reflected on your experience and I think of my experience in the corporate world, and I have worked in male dominated industrial businesses. Often I was the only woman and you know I never experienced sexual harm, but there were, you know, comments and you know biases that you know you'd kind of notice. But if you wanted to keep your job and if you wanted to do a good job, you just had to get on with it right. And now, when I speak to younger women in organisations usually in their late 20s, their early 30s, and they're horrified about the stuff that they're having to deal with and they're not standing for it, I kind of just got on with it, like I wondered you know, did you get some of that reflection back to you, that you had some of those experiences, but maybe you had to just get on and do the job anyway, whereas we've got a generation now who are not standing for crap.
Speaker 2:That's actually a really deep question. So first, what I would say is the PhD research was actually women who had already left.
Speaker 2:But during the consulting role for the Army. I then did a subsequent postdoctoral piece of research, which was a woman currently serving. So you know it did actually cover both women who had left and were currently serving at that time. What's interesting, though, when we say that, you know, women are standing up for themselves more now than perhaps they might have been in the past. I think it's really easy for things to get normalized. So when I was 18, I joined the Army, I was really naive and ignorant to the fact that being a woman made any difference. It was only when I joined the Army that I was like oh wow, you've really got to prove yourself as a woman, and you know, if you want to be respected, you have to basically be twice as good to be considered half as good, whereas as a young school girl it never even occurred to me, and so you kind of. You know I went in there full of confidence that I'm a woman and I can do.
Speaker 1:Not even girls can do anything.
Speaker 2:It was like I haven't even really heard of that same. Well, of course you can do anything, why is that even a thing? But then what happens is I was in that environment and, as you say, lisa, this is not just specific to Army, this is reflective across many industries. You just sort of get normalized to things and I spent 10 years there, didn't really think that I'd experienced sexual harm, until I did my research and I wasn't asking women questions about sexual harm, I was just asking them really general questions about their experiences, and sexual harm came out as a big topic.
Speaker 2:And I realized, lisa, I had experienced sexual harm in Army, but I was so normalized to just thinking, oh well, that's just part of it. Like you know, you've just got to suck these things up. Yeah, and it's, it's not. I was going to say it's funny, it's not funny, it's deadly serious, but sometimes it's not, until you can take a step back or move out of it, and almost you look at other people's experiences with more objectivity than you do your own, and that then caused me to realize, oh, my goodness, these things did happen to me. Why the heck did I not even acknowledge that? But at the time I didn't even think, oh, that's not okay, but I'll just suck it up.
Speaker 2:It was that I didn't even really register the fact that that was deeply not okay and so, yeah, I don't even know if that's really an answer, but I just want to encourage every person you know, regardless of age or gender, that actually, if that behavior happens, it's not okay and we have a right to say that's not okay, and people who are in the majority have a duty to actually look out for the people that might be experienced in marginalization.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but what actually happens is if someone a woman, does stand up for herself and makes a complaint and goes to HR and I've worked in HR roles and the HR person tries to do something, yeah, you come up against. Oh well, he's a good guy, he didn't mean it, you know, let's just, you know, shush about it and let's not actually deal with the issue. And so then people don't stand up, they don't come and complain because, you know, I have seen it even recently in a role in a company where there was a man and there were three or four women who'd made complaints and it took them three or four years to exit him from the business over these things. And you say you're like what the hell, what the hell? But I think that normalised thing, yeah, I've definitely experienced that, and it's only when other women have said this happened to me and I'm like, yeah, that's not on, that's not on, like yeah, yeah, it's very hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I absolutely agree, and I you know I don't have the silver bullet answer for it, but the work that I'm trying to do actually is, of course I want to help individual women, but actually I'm trying to help organisations to change. So it's about changing the culture from an organisational point of view. So it's not okay. Woman, you know how do you like blow the whistle harder, how do you stand up for yourself more? I'm trying to go to the root cause and be like organisation. How do we change that culture so that these things don't even happen.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Because you can't. You can help one person and that's fantastic for the one person. Like what about all the other people coming? So yeah, I think the organisational level is really important. So what's some of the work you do now with organisations? Like, so you said you know you focus on I think you said a bit around sexual harm, around authentic leadership, supporting parents what's some of the key things you do with organisations?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So look, the sexual harm one isn't one that I've gone into further, my sort of areas that I. So I now have my own business, which, by the way, that in itself was a scary thing. I remember I was on parental leave second time round, so I had a breastfeeding. I was breastfeeding my baby, I had a three year old and I was sort of just marinating on my PhD research and I did some other postdoctoral research about the experiences of working parents and was like this isn't good enough. I don't like that. This is how our world works and so I want to do something about it.
Speaker 2:I didn't really know how that looked, but I thought I think I'm going to have to make a business so that it can be. You know, I don't have time to have a done a job, and so I started my business in the leadership space and what I do now is primarily I do speaking at events and I do training, and the training or sort of facilitation of workshops and strategy discussions is all around good leadership, and so my leadership model is belonging, autonomy and purpose, and so I really believe and it's backed up through my own experiences and research, you know well beyond myself is that a leader's job is to create an environment where the team can thrive, and then direct that thriving energy at the task that needs to be achieved. And in order to thrive, people need a sense of belonging. And, as Brené Brown says, belonging is not the same as fitting in. Fitting in is when you adjust yourself to be what you think is required. Belonging is when you can actually show up as your full, authentic, whole, unique self and be valued.
Speaker 2:People need autonomy. They don't like to be micromanaged. People like to have agency and they like to have flexibility over when and how they do the work. And then, finally, people need purpose. They need to know that what they do matters, and so the I guess the overarching work that I do now is I help organizations create this sort of culture, leadership capability. That's all around leaders creating belonging, autonomy and purpose so that everybody in their team although my heart is sort of around woman and parents, actually this is around everybody being able to show up to work, feel they belong, feel they have autonomy, feel they have purpose and therefore do their best work. And the bit that's exciting, lisa, is it's commercially smart. So I'm not selling like a pity cause to businesses. I'm saying treat your people like this, they'll make you more money. There's research for Africa to show that there is a direct correlation between staff who feel good, are happy, less stressed, higher wellbeing, all those things. They therefore are more innovative, creative, productive, engaged, etc. Etc. Happy people make you more money.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and I agree with everything you've said. What do you think happens in organizations that we forget when we walk through the door or log into teams each morning, that we forget that we're human, that we're forgiven, that we all have these needs, whether I've been anointed the leader or not. Leaders want to belong, they want to have autonomy. Like what do you think happens? Like what goes wrong? That we don't have leaders doing this stuff or wanting to learn this stuff?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think, and of course there's so many examples of great leaders, so I don't want to sort of stand here in my soapbox and make out like nobody's doing this right, because that's really unfair and incorrect. But I think it's about and it's so funny, it's about the sort of the way that we've been conditioned to believe that work and personal life are separate. So there's lots of sort of the old adage of you leave your personal stuff at the door when you come to work, kind of really archaic things. I'm not paying you to be happy, I'm paying you to do your job.
Speaker 2:And we have these ideals around what professional is, and professional tends to be associated with someone who doesn't bring their emotions to work or doesn't bring their personal life to work, and that's what we've kind of been normalized to. So there's this almost this idea that you get to work and the task is what's important. But what I believe there's a real momentum towards this and I'm certainly wanting to be part of this is actually, you know, actually people do their best work when they can bring their whole self to work. And so, yeah, having some emotions at work is not unprofessional at all. It's actually just being human and sometimes having a cry and getting it out. You can then crack on and do your work.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, completely, completely. You have written a book and I think people who write books are so cool and I would like to write a book in the future. So I'm always wanting to hear about people's books and why they came about. So tell me about yours. I think yours is. It'll be out today. Tell me about it. How did it come about? Why did you want to write it? Yeah, all the things, the name, all of it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, thank you, lisa, and, by the way, please do write a book. You've got so many amazing stories to share, so I hope that you do. Thank you, yeah, really encourage you to. So it was sort of there was all the ideas in my head around kind of leadership and belonging, autonomy, purpose and this other concept around specifically working parents and the just extraordinarily challenges that they have to face, and I'm one of them. You know I was looking down the barrel at the next kind of two decades of my life, thinking I don't like the way that parents are treated in the workforce, yeah, and so I did a TED Talk it was about two years ago on the topic hashtag work school hours. So I've started a movement, lisa, and I know that sounds grand, but I don't care, stuff it.
Speaker 2:It's a movement hashtag work, school hours. And it's not a dog matter. You know the whole world works nine to three. That's not necessarily practical, but it's about a set of principles. So it's a principles-based approach that focuses on three things. The first is that people have things they care about outside of work and organizations need to do more to value that. That may be children, but actually it could be anything, yeah. The second principle is that we need to focus more on outputs that we want people to deliver so less worrying about how many hours did they do at the workplace, but more what were the outputs they delivered. And then the third principle is giving people more flexibility to do those great outputs and also attend to the things they care about outside of work. And so that's the principle.
Speaker 2:They did this TED talk about why this is actually a commercially smart idea. And then I thought, ok, I think I had to write it all down. So I basically wrote this book hashtag work school hours a revolution for parents, workplaces and the world. So I'm terrified and ambitious. I really am. I want to change the world and I really believe the working world can be so much better than it is. So that's just up front how much I believe in this.
Speaker 2:But the book basically talks through. The first part is the construct of work we currently live in. How did we get here, why does this exist and what are the negative problems that it's creating? The second part of the book is well, what's the solution? So what is hashtag work school hours? How does it work? Why is it a good thing, how it can be a benefit. And then the third part of the book is how do you actually do it? So how do you implement it? Also, how you apply it in a whole lot of different work settings. So this is not just for office workers. There's ways that you can also make progress and improvements even for shift workers. So there's a whole lot of ideas. It's full of case studies, it's full of research. It's sort of peppered with some of my own stories and experiences around leadership. And, yeah, it's a book that I it's funny, lisa.
Speaker 2:My goal is not to sell books, but I want people to read it so that they can have their thinking transformed and be like, yeah, it's not good enough that we're doing work the way we're doing.
Speaker 2:I want to be part of this movement and be part of changing things, and so there's all the stuff in the book about how to do that. And the other thing, lisa, which I'm also excited about I'm also, at the same time, launching my online course, and so the online course is sort of there's two editions. There's one that is focused on parent, so it's tailored specifically for how they can be part of this movement, not about fixing them. They're amazing how they can help change their construct. And then the other version or edition of the online course is focused at people, leaders, which is leaders. How do you create this great environment of belonging, autonomy and purpose? Give people flexibility. And so the two courses are kind of like a companion to the book. So there's the book, which has got it all written down, and then the online course sort of, I guess, brings it to life a bit more, and there's a workbook to actually help people go out and make change.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, I love it. I can't wait to get my hands on my copy and I know that I will be getting one today. Yay, yay. It was interesting when you were talking about those, the principles that you had based that work school hours on. They were effectively the reasons I left the corporate world and started my own business, and I think a lot of women who leave the corporate world or their jobs to start their own business are looking for those three things.
Speaker 1:Right, and sometimes I feel like if I was working inside an organization, I would have more power to change things. But actually I can't do that because it doesn't work for me, because sometimes some organizations haven't worked this out yet. The other thing I've realized is I work at home and I work pretty intensely because I'm on my own, it's just the dogs with me and I pretty much work school hours, I walk to school, I come home I started about 9 in the morning and the first child comes home from school about 3.30. And I'm usually exhausted by then. Exhausted Because I work pretty intensely, but I think for most people we can't. If you're thinking about paying for hours, you're not actually getting output from someone starting at 8.30 and finishing at 5.30 or even working longer hours. You're not getting the output because we physically and our brains can't work that hard for that long. So there's a human physiology thing I think in there as well.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. We have this standard which is an 8-hour day. Nobody maintains concentration and productivity for 8 hours no one, no. And so it's more work. School hours is about people doing work, meeting the requirements of the business. So I'm not for a second saying that should slip, but meeting the requirements of the organization, but doing it when it suits them. So it might be that you work specifically during school hours, or in some cases I'm a night owl, so sometimes I do a couple of hours in the evening because that's when my brain works and I'll be doing personal stuff during daylight, and so it's just about you chunk it and you kind of I'm far better at doing, say, a couple of hours intensely, and it's amazing what you can pump out in a couple of hours straight that you might have done in a full 8 hours at an office.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah, because you go to the office, you got to get there, you got to get your coffee, you got to talk to the people. You get interrupted like, yeah, all of that stuff. Yeah, ok, tell me that I want to know all the things and how we can find all your things. So, firstly, what's your business? What's?
Speaker 2:it called. So my business is my name, so Ellen John Ford, and so that's the website as well, EllenJohnFordcom.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Where can people buy your book?
Speaker 2:So off, my website is the main page. So, ellenjohnfordcom, you can get the book there. I'm also very excited. It's in some bookshops as well. So I know I'm excited. I'm very new to this, lisa, so I'm not really naive and rookie, but I'm excited that there are some bookshops, so have a look in your local bookstore. Otherwise, yeah, my website's probably the easiest place. Yeah, and I'm going to, if anyone happens to be in Wellington or Palmerston North for the Woman's Lifestyle Exposed the Wellington one is in April and the Palmerston one is in May, and so I'll be exhibiting there and people can come and buy a book for me in person.
Speaker 1:So that's the women's lifestyle expo. Yes, sarah, that's cool and is where can people do your online course?
Speaker 2:Oh, so saying thing off the website.
Speaker 1:So again wwwjoefordcom.
Speaker 2:And there's yeah, there's the two editions. There's the one that's specifically at parents and again not fixing parents, but helping parents to be part of this movement to make things better for themselves. And then the second edition is for people leaders, so they're on the website as well.
Speaker 1:So cool. And if people want to work with you, if they want you to come into their organization, are all your contact details on your website? I'm assuming they would be. Oh, Lisa, I love this.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Yes, yes, please, if anyone. That's my main work. I work as a speaker and I facilitate training, so if anyone wants to get in touch and book me for that, absolutely, my contact details are on my website as well.
Speaker 1:So thank you Now. Finally, I want to selfishly talk a bit more about your book, because I want to know a bit about the process of writing the book and how that's maybe changed. You a bit Like, tell me about that.
Speaker 2:So the book experience was actually. I've got it in front of me so I'm just going to hold it up for you. So I'm not trying to know you read it.
Speaker 1:I listen to that Such a pretty cover, such a pretty cover.
Speaker 2:It's just as isn't it. I'm so so Hannah Boone, she designed it. I just love what she's done and anyway. So I wrote the manuscript in one weekend two years ago. The kids were away for the weekend and I spent 72 hours I mean not straight, but almost and I just had everything that was in my head. I just wrote it out. I'd kind of been already organizing thoughts and I put it all together.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I then sat on it for about six months and I didn't really I didn't have the energy to take it further. I was, you know, so busy trying to start the business. Oh, and there was the Afghanistan evacuation task, which is almost in a whole different story, which we can park, but that was a volunteer thing that took over my life for a year, and so I got to the point where I realized, if I actually want this book to be published, I'm going to need to want to best and get some help. So I think there's people that can absolutely do it all by themselves and self publish, and that's amazing. I was not that person. So I ended up connecting with Intelligent Inc, and I'm so glad I did that. So what I basically did was I had a manuscript.
Speaker 2:Which was? It made sense, it was all kind of logical and sensible, but it wasn't a very fun read. And so Christina Wedgwood from Intelligent Inc she ended up. We basically did a bunch of phone interviews, and so she would go through my manuscript and what was so cool is in those interviews she stretched my thinking, so there was more stuff in my head that I hadn't actually written down and hadn't realized. And then she would ask me questions and I was like, oh yes, and that would make me think of something else.
Speaker 2:And so in that process, not only did she turn my manuscript into something that was actually interesting to read, but she actually developed my ideas, or helped me to develop my ideas even further. And so I'm just so. That process in itself was amazing. I feel like the quality of what's in this book in terms of content now is far better than what I'd written myself a couple of years back, and I ended up partnering with Intelligent Inc for the whole journey. Elsa, who's sort of been my main person on the publishing side, how good is she? Amazing, yes, honestly, the whole team.
Speaker 1:Yeah, christina, elsa, dave, they're all amazing, they're all amazing and I'm not even honestly.
Speaker 2:If anyone wants to write a book, get in touch with Intelligent Inc. They. You know you've got to invest in it, but, gosh, it's worth it. I am just so stoked with the process. So, yeah, I think that the journey was that I wrote it to get it out of my head, so it was in one kind of place and it was comprehensible. But doing it with someone else, so having someone else to actually ask me questions, it just helps develop the ideas and made them even better, and so I loved it. It was an experience that I wasn't expecting, but I'm incredibly grateful for, yeah, I'm I'm really proud of this book, Really.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask you how proud are you? Like it's like having a baby, but I'm going to say harder, but I don't know if that's the right thing to say. It's different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it kind of is. I was. I was not expecting to feel quite as emotional about it as I did. So when the box arrived and I saw my book and I was like, oh my goodness, this is, this is my stuff. Like in here is my ideas, and I and I say my like it's ideas from based on, yes, my experiences, but also research from so many other people. So this is not just the Ellen show, this is a movement that's based on research from so many other people and I just, oh, I'm getting, I'm always welling up. That's weird.
Speaker 1:Sorry.
Speaker 2:I just, lisa, I believe in it. I honestly believe that when people read this, it just makes sense and I've got some pretty cool endorsements. Actually, I you know, I push the crap out of this because I want people to read it and you know, mark Kreisel has written an amazing endorsement. Many CEOs they've read it and been like this makes sense, and so I just I want people to read it and it's not about me, but it's about the concept and actually start implementing this stuff and changing the world, because that's what I want to do. I want to have an impact.
Speaker 1:I love that and I can't wait to read it. I will have my hands on a copy a fresh copy today and, for all the listeners, I'll put all your contact details and links in the show notes. So, if you want to go find more about what Ellen does, get a copy of her book, which sounds just amazing and just, I think, will align with with parents, but also people who have other interests and who don't think work is their whole life, because it shouldn't be. Yeah, I can't wait to get this out into the world. Thank you so much, ellen.
Speaker 2:Thank you, lisa. I'm just buzzing and thank you for giving me such an opportunity to talk about this book, because, yeah, I want people to read it and do something with it. Don't just read it and think, oh, that's nice. I want people to read it and then take action.