Have you ever wondered what it takes to not just draft policies but truly embed Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion into the very fabric of an organization? Join us as John Ray, DEI Lead for Hato Hono San John, shares his remarkable journey from rural Australia to becoming a beacon for inclusivity in the workplace. Growing up among diverse wildlife as a zoo tour guide, John cultivated a keen sense of observation and empathy, skills that would later underpin his transition into the human-centric world of DEI.
Throughout our conversation, we navigate the subtle yet pivotal shift from policy to practice in creating an environment where every voice is heard and valued. John brings to light how a staggering 40% of internal communication in his organization is now DEI-focused, sparking vital conversations and leading to real change. With his story, we explore the power of visibility, accountability, and the inexorable drive that pushes DEI champions like him forward, even when progress seems painstakingly gradual.
But the journey doesn't end with policies and practices; it's about the people who bring them to life. In this heartening discussion, John emphasizes the critical role of allies, the transformative nature of Employee Resource Groups, and why it's essential to support a culture where asking questions is not just okay—it's encouraged. His optimism is contagious as he speaks of the growing number of employees who are not just curious but eager to engage with DEI initiatives, fostering a workplace where everyone truly belongs. So, be prepared to be inspired and remember, every question you ask is a step towards a more inclusive world.
The Culture Ministry exists to create inclusive, accessible environments so that people and businesses can thrive.
Combining a big picture, balanced approach with real-world experience, we help organisations understand their diversity and inclusion shortcomings – and identify practical, measurable actions to move them forward.
If you enjoyed this episode and maybe learnt something please share with your friends on social media, give a 5 star rating on Apple podcasts and leave a comment. This makes it easier for others to find A Dog Called Diversity.
Have you ever wondered what it takes to not just draft policies but truly embed Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion into the very fabric of an organization? Join us as John Ray, DEI Lead for Hato Hono San John, shares his remarkable journey from rural Australia to becoming a beacon for inclusivity in the workplace. Growing up among diverse wildlife as a zoo tour guide, John cultivated a keen sense of observation and empathy, skills that would later underpin his transition into the human-centric world of DEI.
Throughout our conversation, we navigate the subtle yet pivotal shift from policy to practice in creating an environment where every voice is heard and valued. John brings to light how a staggering 40% of internal communication in his organization is now DEI-focused, sparking vital conversations and leading to real change. With his story, we explore the power of visibility, accountability, and the inexorable drive that pushes DEI champions like him forward, even when progress seems painstakingly gradual.
But the journey doesn't end with policies and practices; it's about the people who bring them to life. In this heartening discussion, John emphasizes the critical role of allies, the transformative nature of Employee Resource Groups, and why it's essential to support a culture where asking questions is not just okay—it's encouraged. His optimism is contagious as he speaks of the growing number of employees who are not just curious but eager to engage with DEI initiatives, fostering a workplace where everyone truly belongs. So, be prepared to be inspired and remember, every question you ask is a step towards a more inclusive world.
The Culture Ministry exists to create inclusive, accessible environments so that people and businesses can thrive.
Combining a big picture, balanced approach with real-world experience, we help organisations understand their diversity and inclusion shortcomings – and identify practical, measurable actions to move them forward.
If you enjoyed this episode and maybe learnt something please share with your friends on social media, give a 5 star rating on Apple podcasts and leave a comment. This makes it easier for others to find A Dog Called Diversity.
Welcome to A Dog Called Diversity, and this week I have a diversity and inclusion leader and I love talking to diversity and inclusion leaders, I think, because I've been there and I know the good stuff and I know the challenging stuff, and it feels like conversing with people who just get you, I think. So welcome, john Ray, how are you today?
Speaker 2:
Kia ora good. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:
Yeah. Will you tell us a little bit about your role and the organisation that you lead? Diversity and inclusion for.
Speaker 2:
So my role by title is Diversity, equity and Inclusion Lead and I work for Hato Hono San John in New Zealand, so the Ambulance Services, merge's Response Services in New Zealand, and I always think that title or that role doesn't really confine me to anything because it's such a broad topic. I get brought into all sorts of conversations but anything around the eye I tend to be there.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, nice, and I always think there's two ways to come into DE and I roles. So the more traditional way is often from a human resources role, and there's advantages and disadvantages of that, and the other way is to come from any other part of business or organisations or different areas, and often the people that come from somewhere different can bring something very unique and very helpful to the work. And you have such an interesting background on. You have worked in so many different areas. This morning when I was looking at your profile on LinkedIn, I didn't realise you'd worked in zoos, although sometimes working in a zoo might relate to working in organisations sometimes, but I wondered if you would talk a bit about your career and, I guess, how you ended up where you are now.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's a really good point and it's nice to hear you say it's not always. It's kind of an area I think people need to be drawn to as opposed to put into or study, for it's a very passionate personal space to work in and my background is, I guess the other thing before I go into that is I always think you don't have to look diverse to be part of the conversation. I'm a gay guy and as soon as I say that, of course that's why you're working in space. Unless I say I'm a gay guy, people don't know that. Even just last week I said something and they're like oh my god, you're gay.
Speaker 2:
I grew up in a very rural Australia location, very white, but I was always looking at the people that weren't the same colour as me or weren't as able as me and thinking why are they being treated differently? I just never understood the connection as a kid and I sort of went through life and I became, as you say, like I was a tour guide for quite a few years and travelled the world. I was great, you know, living out of suitcases, younger, fantastic, but meeting lots of people from lots of different cultures who were visiting countries that were quite separate to their culture, or bend who they were or compromise to fit in and just again, it just didn't really feel like it should be that way. But yeah, so working with people, somehow that took me to working with zoos, with animals. The simple transition was I was a tour guide. I became taking tours in a zoo, so then I was taking tours of people around the zoo, working with animals, getting to know animals, and suddenly I was looking after the animals.
Speaker 2:
So that was the transition there, but a lot of it was around being observant.
Speaker 1:
So when you're a tour, guide.
Speaker 2:
You've really got to pick up on what people are doing and how they're doing it, and do you need to be part of that? It's the same with animals You're looking at the animals, their behaviours and specifically I was working with primates, which, of course, we are primates as the human species, so it was quite sort of an easy transition and I worked with bunkies or primates, and chimps and gorillas and orangutans for quite a few years and just loving it it wasn't the plan transition, it just sort of naturally flowed and I felt very fortunate to be able to follow that flow.
Speaker 2:
And then I got to a point I was with my partner. We decided we need to get some serious jobs Because he was the same, he was working with tigers and lions and stuff. So we need to get some grown up jobs and for me.
Speaker 2:
I applied for a HR role that's just an administration type of role and got it and that sort of opened up the whole HR world to me. But again, I took those experiences I had as a tour guide why people need to compromise on themselves to fit into a particular cultural situation. And as a kid, why are we treating the people with different coloured skins and braces on their legs differently? I took all those experiences into the HR space and just got involved in DEI. Every opportunity gave me, whether it was official or unofficial, and then this role in Hattahane, St John, came up and I was like that's me. I've been training for this role my entire life without realising it.
Speaker 2:
And this is just this is just me and nothing was going to stop me doing it. No, I just absolutely love what I do, so that's my journey.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and it's a really cool journey and I just think you bring such great stuff then to this work. Whereas I came from a HR background and there were things that I was good at in learning D&I, I mean I knew how to navigate a really big organisation, I kind of knew how to get things done, but I could see other people in the organisation having a bigger impact often for their, I guess, identity areas than I could have. I saw them especially employee networks, group network groups get funding for things that they wanted to do. An external organisation that they wanted to be part of. Like I couldn't have done those things, but they just had a different view about it and could get on with it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and it's got at the moment with neurodiversity celebration week, because I was like, yeah, let's do stuff, let's get stuff going, and I sort of connected with our neurodivergent employees and they're doing so much more.
Speaker 2:
I've got I don't identify or relate to any sort of neurodivergent neurotype, but connected with these people that really do and they've been able to take it to a whole nother level. So their lived experience being part of it is far beyond what anything I could do. So, despite my training and good will, connecting with those people that have those experiences and are able to do the work is just so important and being the key that can unlock that to me is I'm in the background thinking, oh, I did that, but that's for me, I can take that. I don't need off-leads, but I just need to know that I can do that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, one of the things about your organisation is that you deal with the full breadth of the community that you're serving. So ambulance services are dealing with young children who've had an accident at home, cut their cells or cut their head, through to perhaps people who have overdosed on drugs or alcohol, through to elderly people and covering the whole population, and so how important it is for you and your organisation to be having people internally who represent your community.
Speaker 2:
I think we have to. It's so important. There's no, I'm not sure what to compare it to, but we cannot expect to get support from the community if we don't, in our own way, represent who we are going to support. We do a lot around that sort of just trying to think of an example where, like at the moment, one of the calls I had this morning was about emergency responses.
Speaker 2:
In the emergency situation in New Zealand, if there's like a major emergency, they want to know how do we connect with the disabled community or how do we connect with the Māori or Pasifika community, that sort of thing. So it's ingrained into everything we do is how do we not just do something but do something for everyone? And so, using that as an example around emergency responses, I'm going to be able to connect the team that are putting this whole framework into place. I'll be able to connect them into some of the autism New Zealand, some of the disabled communities, some Pasifika and Māori communities and get their perspectives on what if there's a major emergency going on, what support they need or how does it work for them or what do they already have in place. So we're not doubling up on anything, so it's just part of everything we do every day when I am having a meeting.
Speaker 2:
It's usually about connecting the dots between the different groups, and what we need to do is an organisation to meet those services that we provide, and it's not just emergency ambulance services. We also do like caring caller, so for people that might be living by themselves, that need to be checked in or just want to have a chat to people, we also health shuttles, so people that can't make it to the medical appointments on their own accord, we can organise transport for that. We take dogs in the hospitals. There's all sorts of stuff we do, so it's really complicated, very complex, but it's all about meeting the needs of the community.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, what are some of the things you've done internally, I guess, to make sure you can meet the needs of the community? I mean, that was a great example of our emergencies and I'm so glad you're thinking about those things. Yeah, but what are some of the other things that you've been doing?
Speaker 2:
Internally we have always asking the question. We always keep the whole DEI conversation alive and whether that's through comms I was looking at our internal comms chart this morning in the last week 40% has been around. I could classify as DEI. To someone who may not be part of DEI, I may not see it as that, but it's around equity, multi health this time of year across the country. So just keeping the conversation alive because that then brings back feedback.
Speaker 2:
What we need to do as an organisation are we looking after our own people in these spaces? Because if we are starting any work to look after our own people, it's work that we can also put in the community. So if we're looking after our own people that might have hearing impairments or visual impairments, it's often stuff that we can transfer out to the community what we do better in that space as well. So it's just a concert conversation and it's like part of a role. I feel like when I started this role a couple of years ago it was very nuts and bolts let's get a policy, let's get a strategy, let's get the documentation going and who reads documentation really.
Speaker 2:
But now I kind of feel like it's more about just getting people talking and being part of the conversation, and that's where the real direction for what I need to do next comes from is what people are experiencing, what they're seeing, what they're hearing, and whether that's in the workplace or their own communities, for example, the Pacifica community. The people that I have a lot of contact with in the organisation around Pacifica are very active in the Pacifica communities outside of Hattahana. So I'll just get this constant feedback and I'm just that best sort of taking that feedback to where it needs to go to get actioned and implemented.
Speaker 1:
So, yeah, that's really cool, yeah, yeah, and I like what you talked about when you started. It was about the nuts and bolts getting all the documents in place, but I always think that's the line in the sand. It's the standard that we're going to start with, that we're going to say this is who we want to be, this is how we're going to do it. So it's really important to start with that stuff.
Speaker 2:
You do have to have that. I feel very fortunate because, as an organisation, they've invested in a FTE me to be in this kind of role, but a lot of organisations don't have that. So I do get asked to connect with a lot of these different groups. To where do we start? And everybody wants to throw a parade and have a dinner and you know great.
Speaker 2:
But at the end of the day it's like no, you need to start with the basics and the nuts and bolts. You need to get some sort of organisational commitment to what you are doing and where you want to go. And if that's a policy or a guideline, or if a board or EOT sign up on something, that's where you need to start and once you've got that in place, the world is your oyster. You can take that anywhere. Keep referencing back to it.
Speaker 2:
I never miss an opportunity if I'm emailing, I organise a lot of external speakers and webinars and training. Every time I send out the comms there's a reference to a line in the strategy or EOT statement I link them all in, but you've got to get that in the first place. It just makes things so much easier. Yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1:
I always think those documents are the basis of building accountability for the work. And yeah, I love that you're talking about referring back all the time. I think that's so important.
Speaker 2:
Well, one of the things we have now. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:
No, you keep going, we have, we're a huge organisation like 15,000 members and there's a lot of documents, a lot of policies, a lot of strategies. But we've sort of got that down to five strategic aims for the entire organisation and the first one, when you read it off is creating a place where everyone belongs. So I'm not taking credit for that in any way, shape or form, but having that nuts and bolts documentation, I think, has sort of led to that high level five strategic aims. So anything I do now, you know, creating a place where everyone belongs, that's all about DOI. You know that's a huge, huge part of it, and so it's kind of implied that that high level of support is there, no matter what I do, because it's the first of AstroTG game.
Speaker 1:
So yeah, I also liked you talked about. You've got a communications plan. About 40% of the time you're talking about DEI related topics, and that's really important as well. It's about nudging, it's about always putting things out there, reminding people, and the more you do that and the longer you do that, that's how you build the culture of inclusion, and so, yeah, that was a great tip away.
Speaker 2:
It was one of the meetings this morning. It's it keeps up. It'd be very easy, I think, to get like a huge ego in this role, because One of the meetings I had this morning was with a guy that and I was like I have been cross-passed before you know, I've been in the same job for six years.
Speaker 2:
He was like, no, I see your name everywhere, you're like a celebrity. And I was like. I was like, oh my God, you know I don't. I certainly do not feel like a celebrity, but it's so great to think that you know, because you know if people see my name, they see the. You know I lead, you know it's not my name, it's the role and I just think, well, that's just so great. But you know, having that level of visibility across the organization, yeah.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that's really cool. I wanted to ask you what drives you in this work? And because it can be hard work and change is really slow some days. Some days you feel good because you've helped a person, but the next day you might not feel like you've achieved anything. So what drives you? What keeps you going?
Speaker 2:
God, you get it. Lisa, that's exactly what it is. Some days I do feel on top of the world and invincible, and then I get the. So we have an employee server that goes out every two weeks to each person, but every day it goes out a different day, so it's a constant source of feedback. But I get an email every couple of weeks with a summary of that feedback around DEI and I've got to the point where I delete that when it comes through, because it's you know, it's an anonymous source of information and people who feel that they're never going to be identified use that platform to say the most horrible things.
Speaker 1:
But if I look at, the score.
Speaker 2:
So the comments are really horrible, but the score is really great. Like people love what happens around DEI in the organization, it's just the comments. So those are the days where I feel, oh my God, what am I doing? I can't do it, it's not working, I'm terrible, I'm failing. No, that's what's the thing. But then again these amazing emails, and it's sort of. I can't think of the number of times I cry over an email that people have sent to me around something that I've facilitated or done without thinking it's significant to me.
Speaker 2:
But it's had such a huge impact on someone else, and that's what I try to think of. So when I get those digested about the horrible comments, I think back to those random emails that people send and so this has changed my life. And literally people have said that this has changed their life because I've got to get speaker in or whatever reason. And yeah, that just really drives me. I mean from a personal level. You know it's as a gay guy. I don't do this because I'm a gay guy. I do this because I want the world to be a good place for everyone. I'm very lucky I'm a middle-aged white guy. People don't know I'm gay unless they tell me I'm gay.
Speaker 2:
I'm very privileged from that perspective, but I know I'm very privileged. So I just want to create a place where everyone feels that they can actually belong, whether it's in a workplace or not. And I think sort of seeing the opportunities or the successes that I've had just sort of makes me want to do more. I'll just keep going and I've also learned to. You don't know where they're going to come from, because at the moment, talking about disability and your diversity, I get a lot of feedback around that. But I connected with someone a couple of years ago. They were gender affirmation, like they were sort of going through gender transition and sort of supporting people through female women in leadership development. It's just sort of all the different conversations I get pulled into, you don't know where the success is going to be, and so to me it's like, right, let's just do it all.
Speaker 2:
Let's just find out where all the successes are going to be.
Speaker 1:
And that just drives me.
Speaker 2:
Might be a gambling habit or something you know, just sort of keep going and see where it ends up.
Speaker 1:
So that's my driver.
Speaker 2:
And I cannot you know when you want to get really serious about it I just cannot. I cannot accept that people would be treated different because of the color of their skin, their gender, their upbringing. It just I cannot accept that. It just doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Speaker 1:
No, I agree. I agree. What have you learned that? What Different question? What skills or experiences are important to work in a DEI leadership role?
Speaker 2:
Be very, very humble. It's you know. I got this role and thought right, I can do this. I can. I'm great at communicating. I've got all these experiences. I know what needs to be done. Talk to the people Now. Just connect with the groups that need your support, because and even as I keep saying it as a gay guy. Yeah, I'm not lesbian, I'm not transsexual. Yeah, it's. I don't. Just because I'm part of the rainbow community, I don't, I can't know everything?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I don't yeah, it's like if I need To speak on behalf of someone or for someone, make sure that they're there or that you're repeating their words or don't speak, just yeah, just just include everyone in the conversation. That was, that would be the biggest thing. And I see this in people In other organizations that just start out on the journey. They're like a really good intention, that's just just fix everything as we can, but it's based on what they think needs to be fixed or how they Think it needs to be fixed, and I can't fault those people. But at the same time it's like, okay, take that energy and let's go talk to these, this group that you are trying to support, and Find out what it really is that we're talking about. And then you take your role, your energy and go to do that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:
So and that, to me, has been in my role, I think, has been the biggest success in Getting engagement with allies, and we can't do anything without allies. Otherwise it's just each group banging their own drum, just trying to get things sorted. And Again, using this particular week at the moment New Diversity Celebration Week I've I would normally host all the different events because that's my role. You know, and this has been the first time I've said right, I'll organize events, but you turn up and you host it. Yeah, you're part of the neurodivergent group and you told me what you wanted to happen.
Speaker 2:
So let's, let's just sort of turn around and and yeah, just that, just, it's just sort of I Feel like a vessel. I'm just. I'm in a role where I can do stuff and yeah, I can write the policies and that sort of stuff. But you know, when we talk about, you know, what the people need to do is it's like just let the people do what they want to do. Yeah, they want to do it. Don't feel like you have to do it all.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that's so resonates with my experience On a couple of levels. So one was when I first started in a DEI leadership role I thought I knew a lot of stuff. I certainly knew about the experience of women in organizations that are male dominated, little bit of experience on Disability, because I have a son with a disability but not experience in a workplace. And I realized very quickly I didn't know very much and and was part of the reason for starting this podcast so that, like selfishly, I could go talk to people and go.
Speaker 2:
You're a vessel?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I'm a vessel, like you said, and you can't know at all, like even If you spent your life studying this. Everyone Experience is different, and so I always talk about the more you know in this space, the less you know, like, because there's always more. What is it?
Speaker 2:
and it changes to is this would have. You're right, I've done some post grad stuff in this sort of this topic and it's like it's fine.
Speaker 2:
I've got a bit of paper but it changes. There's always stuff that's going on and a lot of it is based on personal experience. So, you know, as society changes, we we need to adapt and change as well. But yeah, and it's all I love. I love allies, because everybody wants to be. A Lot of the successes I have in this organization is down to allies. We have a network, we have a DI network. There's ten different for HR term portfolios, but ten different spaces that we really focus on and we can you know, we can focus as hard as we want until the chaos come home, but we need the bigger, wider organization to come in and be part of that conversation. So the allies is is a huge part of what we're doing and with Anything I do, I keep referring back because it's neurodiverse celebration week. But we've just done a big module around new diversity, my e-learning module, and I sent it. I sent it out. All these new, diverse people and allies you know. Give me feedback. Is this making sense? Is it working?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, is this you know, for the neurodivergent people.
Speaker 2:
It's like is this your experience for the allies? Is this what you want to know? So it's just sort of connecting with Everyone else. You know I'm just this person, this role, sitting here trying to work for all of you. What do you need me to do? What do you want to know answers to Are these are the correct answers I'm giving to these people, and so forth. So you know it's I Love what I do and sometimes I think I'm just that person that's sort of bouncing around and organizing trades and sending emails. That's what I can see. It's pivotal. Pivotal Because it sort of brings all those people together and Benefits both sides by doing it.
Speaker 1:
So yeah, yeah, one of the other things you said that really resonated with me was about letting people who are associated with that identity whether it's neurodiverse or whether it's the rainbow community is letting those people do the work and letting them get on with it. And I have seen, in a number of organizations I've worked with, that it's a real tension between the organization wanting to have control and guidelines and rules and the groups wanting to do what they want to do, and I think there needs to be somewhere in the middle that we need to have some guidelines and some frames of reference, I guess. But the bigger the organization, the more tightly we want to control and hold, and this work is not about that. So I like what you talked about there.
Speaker 2:
We're kind of lucky. We are not a government organization, with only emergency service not funded by government, which is great because we're not controlled by the government.
Speaker 2:
But at the same time it's not great because we need funding, we need money. So we kind of, as far as DEI goes, we do have in the network a terms of reference for the ERGs, that sort of thing to refer back to. But I mean two things. I've met numerous times with EOT top level and said, just guaranteed that their support trickles down. So if someone in the organization wants to be part of the ERG or do some work, it will be supported. And the second part of that was I don't remember the second part- of it.
Speaker 2:
Basically, the high level of support is there. So people want to be part of the role and do some stuff in the ERGs. They will get support from the ERT. They won't be thought of. What's that person doing? They're not doing their normal job, they're slacking off that sort of thing. So I do, when I put stuff out for review or can you help me do this that sort of thing I put it out with a lot of confidence, knowing that it will be received by people in the organization. If they've got capacity to do it, they'll do it knowing they're supported and it's also a really good personal development for some people as well, like running webinars.
Speaker 2:
those sorts of things Might be able to do their comfort zone. Do you want to do it and we'll do a few trials and we'll get it going and off they go, so yeah.
Speaker 1:
Very cool. What are you optimistic about? When you think of how far you've come, but there is a long way to go in this work. So what are you optimistic about?
Speaker 2:
Optimistic, that's our keyword. Optimistic. I'm optimistic about the number of people, number of allies, going back to that sort of term again, I've just found in all my roles, even before I took on this role. So before I took on this role, I was in the recruitment team at Hattaunga and we used to ask a lot of questions around the treaty of what Tangi, around, what does it mean to you?
Speaker 1:
How do?
Speaker 2:
you interpret it in the health sense, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 2:
And some of the people on the interview panel wouldn't know the responses themselves or they'd be uncomfortable with it. They'd go, don't be scared. Yeah, this is. There's talk about this sort of thing and people were like oh my. God, this is great.
Speaker 1:
This is amazing, I didn't realize.
Speaker 2:
I was.
Speaker 2:
I was scared to ask, but, yeah, this is really good to know, and so I think the number of allies around there that wanted no more is just is just up to people in roles like myself or yourself or whatever, to create that awareness that it's okay not to know everything and if you have questions that come and ask.
Speaker 2:
And I think, with allies, one of the things I've been trying to do at Hattaunga is going back to those 10 groups that I talked about that we focus on. Next month we are, we're going to start holding all everyone come along, anyone come along, but once the more that I come along and just get all those allies through the door, and because I just every time I do something or put something out, the number of people that want to be involved is really high. So that's what I'm optimistic about is just capturing that energy enthusiasm, because, despite the bad comments I might get from the employee surveys, I know that is outweighed 100 million times by people that want to go. I want to do something. I don't know what I want to, I don't know what to do or who to do it for, but I want to do something, and so that's what I'm really optimistic about is just bringing all those people in.
Speaker 2:
You know, let them do what they want to do, and it's worked really well for us because it's just getting people to host events, getting people to feedback on documentation, even to a point where I'm pretty crap at PowerPoint presentations. I had someone contact me say I want to support the. I don't know what to do, but I'm great at PowerPoint presentations.
Speaker 1:
Right, I have to do a presentation next week.
Speaker 2:
This is what I got Make it pretty and I said it to her and came back as just this awesome PowerPoint presentation. So that's what I'm really optimistic about is I think people want to learn. I want to be part of it. We just need to find a way to bring them into it and make them feel that they belong as well. It's not just about being diverse, it's about everyone.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, oh, my goodness. It's been so nice to speak with you, john. Is there anything you'd like to leave listeners with?
Speaker 2:
I think one of the things I found is people are afraid to ask questions for creating a fence, yes, like offending someone. People want to know stuff. I'm just going to go and get the whole piece that I've just rubbed on about, but don't be afraid to ask questions. If there's something you want to know, something you want to learn, there are ways to find that out.
Speaker 1:
And Google.
Speaker 2:
I was going to say I was going to put myself in the firing line, even it's just like yeah, if you want to know something, find out about it, as opposed to not ask the question or not understand. It's something that I've come across is people are like oh, I didn't know that, but I've never asked that. I was like well, just ask that, Particularly in New Zealand around Tiriti at the treaty. It's like just find out, are Maori really privileged or have they had a bad bum? It's sort of like ask those questions.
Speaker 1:
Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure and I'm so glad we finally got to speak.
Speaker 2:
Let's do it again, lisa, let's do it again.
Speaker 1:
I don't have an idea I'm going to talk to you about.
