A Dog Called Diversity
A Dog Called Diversity
Creating Visibility for Women Over 45..... with Lot Hawkins
Have you ever felt suddenly invisible in your workplace despite your wealth of knowledge and experience? This episode explores the often-overlooked challenges of an aging workforce and the urgent need to build bridges between generations.
Lot Hawkins, founder of The Stella Collective, shares her journey from art therapy to qualitative research, and how approaching her 50s sparked a mission to create visibility for women over 45.
During the conversation Lot and Lisa discuss how workplaces will soon have up to six generations working side by side, and the immense challenges this presents.
Drawing on her expertise in understanding human behavior, Lot offers invaluable insights into building trust across generational divides through context and understanding rather than confrontation.
Lot and Lisa also discuss Lot's groundbreaking "50 Over 50" initiative celebrating accomplished New Zealand women.
Whether you're leading a diverse team, feeling overlooked in your career, or simply interested in workplace dynamics, this conversation offers a perspective on valuing experience in our youth-obsessed world.
Connect with the Stella Collective to learn more about building bridges in your organization and creating workplaces where every generation can thrive.
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Welcome everyone to A Dog Called Diversity, and today I am so pleased to have Lot Hawkins with me and she is doing some really, really cool things around. I'm going to say age discrimination. She heads the Stella Collective, which I'm going to get her to talk about in some more detail. But first, welcome, lot. It's great to have you here.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Lisa. It's very lovely, lovely to be here. I'm really excited to be talking to you.
Speaker 1:Yay, and I'm quite jealous of Lot. She's just back from her European summer holiday back to the very cold New Zealand. But lovely to have you here and I wondered if you would share a little bit about your background, like give us a bit of you know who you are? Where have you come from? A bit of that?
Speaker 2:It's interesting. So I grew up in Europe and I've only moved to New Zealand about 10 years ago, but before that I lived in London. I've seen parts of the world, I've traveled a lot. I now call New Zealand home and it really is. And on that subject of home, actually it's. I've got multiple homes across this world and I love that. You know, new Zealand of Holland is home where my parents are from Europe is my home, but so is New Zealand and I love that whole thing of we are so multifaceted as people and we can have more things than one. My background originally I started off in art therapy, um a therapy.
Speaker 1:Did you say art therapy? I did yes, that's so cool?
Speaker 2:yeah, it was. I wanted to do something with helping people and art, um, and I thought, oh, art and therapy, that sounds amazing. I'll go and do that. It's a very slow job to be into. It's one step forward, two steps back. Often, and especially in the dutch culture, there needs to be consensus about everything. So it wasn't for me. I'm much more fast-paced than that job could offer me.
Speaker 2:However, I think what it did do and it's all, it's that curiosity that I've got, that innate curiosity, the innate need for nuance, the innate need to see more sights to, or more facets to, life. So it has fed that. And it did fit my career into qualitative market research, which I've been in for a long time, with a slight focus in the end towards innovation development for a software company and to running my own business. So it's funny hindsight. You kind of you know you never set out a specific career path, but when you look back you go. Actually it's all been feeding into this one, this thing that now kind of drives me, and it's quite wonderful to see that it's all about everyone having a.
Speaker 2:I don't know, it sounds so icky, doesn't it? It's like everyone having a place, but it it is true, there is a place for everyone in this world. There is um, and I guess you know, coming into where I'm now nearly 50, very nearly 50, um you just suddenly realize, suddenly you don't get seen anymore. You know, I used to be in boardrooms to these people and, knowing myself, I still know my stuff. Um, but getting chosen because you knew your stuff, you know on your um, your power, that you exclude and then just go like you know your stuff. I want to hear from you to now go like I know we, we just ignore you. We get the younger ones in which you know, fair enough.
Speaker 1:But no, I'm not done yet, I'm only just getting started and before we, before we get on to that, I wondered if you would talk a bit about qualitative research and what that actually is so within, before you do the marketing, there was a whole lot of research that happens before, during and after with marketing.
Speaker 2:Okay, and you've got quantitative and qualitative. So quantitative is the. The number game is literally like can I do this? Does it make sense? Does it make financial sense? You know what are the numbers? Big enough for us to progress in what we're thinking.
Speaker 2:Qualitative research as to why. It's understanding why people do the things that they do, and it's a lovely. I love that. I love it because I get to talk to people, I get to listen to their answers and make sense of it. So I you know, being a therapist, it's always about understanding the deeper meaning behind words anyway, or in my case, was art, um, but that really helps in determining it's not just what people say, but what they don't say, what their body language is like, all the the non-verbal communication within that. But really understanding why people do the things that they do, why do they choose certain brands or certain packaging? What does that tell us about that particular brand? How does their decision-making process go and why is it that way? You know, why can we make that brand work in that particular category or with those particular people? Why not with other people, particular category, or with those particular people? Why not with other people? So that that psychology behind this is what has always fascinated me and that is still driving me.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I'm a wannabe psychologist, basically it sounds like it, but, um, often some of the the qualitative work I've done is so interesting. So I kind of connect with your passion. And we actually met because you invited me to an event that you were running through the Stella Collective and I went back and said, oh, thank you very much, but since I've left the corporate world I don't do breakfast events anymore. And you were running a breakfast event and and I said, but you know I'd love to meet you, but you know, I just I don't do breakfast. I do. You know, I'm more of a cocktail hour kind of a girl. And you very kindly said I'd love to meet you anyway, after being so cheeky.
Speaker 2:But I wondered if you could you talk a bit about how the Stella Collective came about and like why it's important for you it came about, I think, hitting the 80s, 50s, and you feel like you know what I just alluded to is, um, I just didn't feel seen anymore and I think that whole thing. I went through quite a few things like Like in my early 40s I got bullied in the workplace by a senior manager and that kind of makes you hit rock bottom for a week and trying to crawl back from that one, I went back out on my own. So after working for that company, I went back out on my own and thought I can just do it myself. But yeah, and then realizing I'm not being seen as much as I used to be seen, and that sounds so horrible when you say like that, but it's, there is a truth and I think a lot of women especially but I think this for men is a bit different, but but similar in terms of aging, um, but especially for women, it's like suddenly you just get put aside, you know, and it's like you're not in that room anymore and I'm like I used to be in that room, I quite like being in that room and I've got a lot to give um, and I really started noticing that. And then I looked at my two daughters, and I think they spurred me as well, because I thought do I want them to see me like this or do I want to create a path that they go? You know what my mom helped create that path? Yeah, and I thought that's what I want to do.
Speaker 2:So we started out with a vision of creating visibility for women over, say, 45, you know, but that's the kind of age and giving room to women over 45. So, by giving room, I think that's the whole thing. It is not about networking, it's not being the male archetype of the. What females want, it's actually it's being us, and unreservedly us. Um, so focusing on elements that are probably more feminine, and maybe this goes back to my roots as well. It's actually giving the room, it's listening, it's empathy, it's curiosity, it's all those soft skills. It's like giving room for that one. That's where my desire started from.
Speaker 2:I don't want to network, I don't want to be the biggest person in the room. I don't need to be. I don't need to shout to be seen. I don't want to shout to be seen. I don't want to shout to be seen. I just want to be, and I want to be with women and people, not just women, but people who do that in the same way, and there was, there was room for everyone, so that whole thing. So we started out doing it and a breakfast event. I'm so sorry you don't do breakfast.
Speaker 1:I'm not a morning person, I am.
Speaker 2:So for me it worked perfectly. But I'm so glad that you came because it was lovely, it was so amazing meeting you and that connection that we had shared over the coffee. It wasn't a cocktail, it was amazing. It wasn't a cocktail, it was amazing, it's just people pulling people up. It's like we're together, all in this, together, and the feedback that we got from the first event was actually just amazing, because the people went like going, I feel seen, yeah, and that kind of nailed it down for me. I feel seen and I'm like that is actually why we, why we exist, why the seller collective exists. I want people to be seen, I want us to be heard, I want us to be listened to. Um, so that's sort of whole the softer skill set I think of. You know, in this world that is very much on profit over purpose. It is about you know money over anything else. It's about screaming the loudest, having the loudest voice, and I don't think it is. I don't think the new world should look like that at all no, so what, like?
Speaker 1:what do you actually do in the stellar collective? Like, what is what's your, I guess?
Speaker 2:aim with it, my aim is to to change the world and I know that sounds big but to change our perception of aging, to change the perception of women over 45, we need to create conversations. Yeah, and to create conversations. The main part about creating conversation is listening and building bridges. And especially if you look into the workforce we've got, with the whole aging that is happening at the moment, the longevity you know, our kids are going to live up to 100, 50% chance to live up to 100. They're going to be working much longer than ever. Yeah, that means we're going to have five or six generations in the workforce. We've only had like two, maybe three, and that causes enough riots and disturbance as it does. But imagine four, five or six in the workforce and you have to manage those. So we did some research earlier in the year with New Zealand CEOs and like, how do you manage that? How do you bridge those gaps? And they're struggling. They're absolutely struggling because how can you align?
Speaker 2:a workforce with different generations, different values, different ways of communicating, and that is what we want to focus on. So, yes, I'm, my main aim is to create visibility, to create room for everyone, but we can only do that together and only do that by building bridges between the different departments, the different generations, and by and I guess that's where qualitative research comes in as well, because we're very good at finding those bridges and we go like, actually just by listening and knowing what somebody else does or wants or how to do things differently and why they do things differently, you go I understand you now. So it's creating understanding. I think that's the main goal, and so we do that by going into the businesses and first of all, before you do anything is actually creating round call it round tables, for lack of a better word and finding the bridges that we can build. Then start to build. Okay, so now we've built trust with people, because that's the thing If you don't, if the differences are too big and there is no bridge between them, you can never build outward innovation, a coherent outward innovation.
Speaker 2:So if we get a united workforce that fully respects and trusts each other, we can then go OK. So what does that mean Now that we can have got a really tight workforce. Now let's start thinking about innovation. Imagine what that would do for your innovation, for your, how much better it would be because you've got a united workforce. So it sounds so simple, but it's how are you?
Speaker 1:doing that? How are you? What are some of the things you're doing? Like to build trust, to build that united workforce that united workforce it's.
Speaker 2:I go back to my roots and it's a psychology of people. It's actually just by showing people asking the questions in different ways. So don't, I don't ask straight things. I hardly ever ask why did you do that? Because you would go. That's scary, you know, and I'll go on the defensive, and I think the main thing to do is not to be on the defensive or the offensive just by going. I'm just sitting here and I'm listening. I'm asking a question tell me how does that go in your daily life? Okay, so what does that mean to you? How does that make you feel? So?
Speaker 2:Once you focus on those aspects, the more holistic aspects of their job, you go, you make them understand and you understand then as well what's happening between the people and how that relates. And once they understand what's happening within them, they can then understand what's happening with people outside of them as well and where they might have the issues with. I know I had an old mentor to me and he said once the irritation you feel in yourself about people is often an irritation in you. Completely yeah, and it makes you think. Yeah, but I think about that really often because if I'm annoyed with somebody I'm going like okay, so what does it tell me about me? What have I got to work on to make that better? You know, I can't ask somebody else to change, but I can change I can for me.
Speaker 2:I can't work on anyone else, but what I can do is I can open up those bridges. So using qualitative exercises, qualitative research exercises, to get to that. Why, by using by things like that are non-direct questions actually really helps, because you kind of peel off an onion's layer, you know, one at a time. So, rather than cutting the onion down in half and actually saying like, look, this is where you need to be, I'm just going to peel it off one by one and you're going to explore, so very safely exploring it, and you go actually, oh, I get that, now I can see what somebody is doing there. And that means you can actually work building those bridges together, because they can only be built together. You know, people can't build a bridge by themselves.
Speaker 1:No, no, you know, people can't build a bridge by themselves. No, no, one of the things I had to learn, I'm going to say the hard way, is that when you have diversity of age in your workplace which is what we're talking about right, if we're, you know, we could have maybe 16, 17, 18-year-olds through to 80-year-olds, you know, I think that's where we're heading maybe even older. You know, some of it's about building trust with each other and some of it's about recognising the value that each, you know, generation or age or experience brings. And an experience I had was in an Australian business. We had a worker who was, I think, probably in his fifties or sixties he might've been in his sixties actually, in in his 60s actually and he in that business in Australia, he was a grumpy, not helpful, kind of a problem at times in our workplace. And then the business I worked for. We had a location in the Middle East and the managing director there decided he was going to move him from Australia into the Middle East.
Speaker 1:And I was horrified. I was the HR person. I'm like, why the hell would you do that? He's a troublemaker, he's grumpy, he was a real ass, this guy. Anyway, of course, I didn't get my way, and luckily so, they move this guy into the Middle East and he was exactly what they needed. They had a really young workforce, they were a growing business and he had all the knowledge and he took on this mentoring, almost grandfathering role and it was absolutely perfect and for me, it was a great lesson. For me, both in talent and context, matters that someone in one context might not be performing but in another will flourish, which is what he did, but also that people bring different values, and having someone with lots and lots of experience in our industry made a huge difference. I wondered how have you thought about that in your work?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I love the example that you bring because it's such a prominent example and I think we've all had those things and you're so right, context is everything. So by building trust, you understand people's context and you just go. It makes sense for what they do and it's just put on different colored lenses. So in my research that I do and still and have done over my years, it's you put on different colored lenses to look at somebody because you need to look at it through their context. If you go to Aussie, the rules are different. If you go to the Middle East, rules are different. If you go to the middle east, and even the countries in the middle east are completely different. If you go to france, the context is different. So you need to understand the context really well and what I love about your example is it's about value. It's what value can you bring, what value can somebody bring?
Speaker 2:And if you think about the value that older people bring into a workforce, it's ginormous. We're often not being seen for it because often it's like deadwood. So he must have not been quite happy to be the way that he is or was anyway. It's because he wasn't used, so he wasn't valued enough as a person or as an experienced leader, and when he moved, that changed. But there is a real big thing as well with reverse mentoring and I love that term, reverse mentoring because mentoring is always a two-way street and we've made it long enough. We've made it a one-way street. It's from the manager to somebody else, you know, from somebody higher to somebody lower. But if you reverse mentor, the older people can learn from the younger people because they need to learn, because their context is different than their context. You know the older people's context. So by learning together and learning from each other, you actually really stimulate that to make people valued and understand that context. And there was a beautiful post this morning actually by um zoe skamen on linkedin.
Speaker 2:And we've lost the art of nuance in the world that we live in, because everything is left or right, black or white, it's pro or against, it's the absolute. We're dealing in absolutes whilst you are people, the furs from absolutes that ever existed, existed. So that value. So value, context and recognition of those two are crucial and we need to do way more, I think we as people. Um, and aging fits into that one.
Speaker 2:So what I really like about it and that's my approach to life. It's all about humans. It's a very humanised way of going. We are different, you know, we're not predators. We are not predators. Some of us are maybe, but you know we'll put those aside. But generally people are not predators. We are so incredibly nuanced. We've got so much to give and to understand. We've got a brain that works differently, that can see different sides. I could don't just look at you and go, hey, that's prey, it's prey or not prey. That's not my brain. My brain is who are you? Tell me more about you. Yeah, I want to know more about you and we're living in a really tough world, I think, at the moment. So try, I'm trying to break through that and just being slightly more perhaps feminine in approach, but, you know, more holistic in the approach towards a more humanised world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. One of the things that you have been working on which I think is super cool and when this episode goes to air, it will have closed out but you've been running a promotion or nominations for 50 women over 50. Is that right? Yeah, for 50 New Zealand women. Yes, I have. Yeah, Tell me about, like, what sparked you to do that and what is it about?
Speaker 2:What sparked it's the time of doom and gloom that we've been in. I think that really is what sparked it. Everything I read, everything I saw it was dire. It was about the state of the economy, which is bad. You know the state of the world that's not very productive. Everything was so harsh and I thought I really in line with what the Stella Collective stands for and what we want to do is to uplift and to bring space for everyone. And then I thought why, why wouldn't I just do it? This idea that sparked.
Speaker 2:I was talking to a friend and she goes why won't you just do it? And I thought what is holding me back? And it is a great question really to really think about. You know, often things hold us back but we don't know why and we let ourselves live by that fear and I thought, no, I'm just gonna do it.
Speaker 2:So whether or not this was kind of like a mad thing to do, I don't know, but I decided to run the 50 over 50 with the Stella Collective, new Zealand women, because it's about uplifting each other and because women still do not get the airtime that we need. And also I was curious to see you live, kind of live it, especially on LinkedIn. You kind of live in an echo chamber, which is amazing because I've met amazing people through it. But I wanted to widen that as well. I wanted to include more people, because it's all about inclusivity, it's all about these people that I've got no clue about, but who are really awesome in what they do, and I thought we just need to celebrate it. So here I am. I've just launched the inaugural 50 over 50 New Zealand women list and, yeah, hoping to take it global, maybe next year.
Speaker 1:That's so exciting. I can't wait to see who comes out on the list, I think. I think it's such a cool thing you've done and I really love it when people just go oh why, why doesn't this exist? Actually, I could do it. Why can't I do it and go out there and do it, yeah exactly, and it said why can't I do it?
Speaker 2:well, I don't need permission, do I? Yes, because we wait for permission often, and I don't need permission. I need to give myself permission to do it. That's all I can. I can do it.
Speaker 2:I thought, well, the Stella Collective is going to run this and we are going to use it as a way to get the conversation going, and I think that's the key is, how do we start the conversation outside of our echo chamber? How do we prod and poke and go? Actually, you know what? There is a bigger conversation that needs to happen on a bigger scale, with different people. So, yeah, what best way, then, to nominate those who you feel rightly deserve it? So and for whatever reason and that's the beauty, because I've asked people not just to nominate a person, but actually to tell us why so those bits of information are going to be really, really crucial, I think, in sparking the wider debate. So I think, with the work that you are doing about inclusivity and diversity, it's sparking the debate is what often needs to happen just to start getting people thinking about things differently. So that's what I want to do.
Speaker 1:My new list love it, can't wait to see it. Yeah, if people want to work with you, because I think a lot of the things you're hitting on are really important, particularly to organizations. So I think about multi-generate, multi-generational workforces, getting people people to work together, trust each other. Yeah, what work do you do with organisations and what work do you love to do with organisations?
Speaker 2:So I basically started with a basically qualitative research, wrapped up slightly differently. Okay, it's about putting people together around the table and actually start discussion. So what you do in research is you think about your questions and your goals beforehand before you go into a meeting. Now that sounds very common, but it doesn't, because you need to really think about every single question that can come about and you need to be able to change your text as well. So I can put out a way that I think it's going to go, but often I need to go rather than a to b. I could a to q to h, to t to z, to and then to b. So it's working with the people, but actually just starting off with listening, a listening conversation. So it's a question. It's a moment where you would sit down with the senior leadership and actually go like, talk to me about what your observations are and what your pain points are. So once you know that you can go in and you can listen to that, you go in, you figure out what those pain points are and then you go talk to the people that are not senior management and that are across the organization different generations, different teams and you go and talk to them about their pain points. So rather than saying, oh, senior management is telling me these and these are the pain points that might not ring true for them at all because their context is different. Again, their context is different than the people on the floor so you start listening to the people on the floor about what their pain points are. Once you've done that listening and that listening can be through a survey as well so there's different ways to go about this could be through it could be through putting people around the table and actually just listening. It could be a phone call, it doesn't matter. There's different ways to listen you put those two together and you go figure out where's the overlap and where's the gaps. Understanding the gaps is often as important as finding the overlaps. The overlaps are like where you can find the intrinsic belts already for your trust to go like actually you guys have got the same thing. Your context might be different, but your issue is exactly the same issue. But where there's gaps, there's room for improvement. And to build those gaps you need to start building on that trust first of all and go like well, understanding each other's context helps build that trust. So we really put people together and start building the framework. It's almost like it's. It's a framework of how to work with each other, how to listen to each other, how to understand each other's context before anything else, and then, once you've done that, you've built. So it's building layers up. So once we've built, uncovered the layers first, and we start building up those layers, we then go okay.
Speaker 2:So what is the shared goal that we're going to work towards? And I call it putting people on the same train, in the same direction, moving forward. You know how often in a company, there's always one person who's the front of the train and they never stop to pick up people along the way. So somebody heads off and they go like, oh, why is nothing working? Because they don't stop to pick, to pick people up along the way and to get them on that same journey. So putting people in that same, putting people in towards the journey, on the same train, in the same direction, moving forward and I think that's where one of my strengths really lies and the strength that we want to bring.
Speaker 2:With the seller collective, we can do that, so we've been. You know, we can help shift people's perception around and it sounds really harsh but towards a shared, shared, aka collective vision for the future, and that is what I think is what makes the big difference. It's like to really put people facing that same direction rather than going I've got this goal and everyone just needs to follow me. It doesn't work that way, you know. You need to understand people's motivations and then you can align with those or they can align with you, and sometimes it happens People go these are not my motivations, I can't do this. Fine, that's your, you know. But then they understand their own context and the company's context. But that is the main goal of what we have and what we do is putting people forward on the same train.
Speaker 1:I love that analogy. Often it's the bus, but I like the train more, I think.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'm European. I'm more used to being on the train than anything else. Probably.
Speaker 1:Trains do go faster. That's a good point, and they're much more efficient and they're sustainable All of the things. If people and organizations want to work with you, how do they get in contact, like?
Speaker 2:they can either go through linkedin you know I'm on linkedin, rightly this, so it's either myself just on linkedin or my company, distella collective, or there is a website, distellacollectiveorg. Or just give me a bus you know it's um or be in contact with you and just you can pass on my details ah well, I'm gonna put all your details in the show notes so that people can find you directly.
Speaker 1:Um, but it's, it's been so lovely talking to you, because I think this idea of the ageing workforce and the idea of having multiple generations and having broader generations in our workforces is not something that I don't think organisations are thinking about enough. I'm not sure governments are thinking about enough either, and so I love that you're doing this work with the Stellar Collective. So is there anything you'd like to leave us with, anything that we haven't spoken about, that you're like oh, I just want to leave you with this one thought.
Speaker 2:Well, actually, you just reached a good point. Longevity is not thought about enough. Longevity is a long-term gain. Longevity is not for short-term gains. It's not about what is my board is going to tell me. You know what is my report going to be in three months time? It is literally think about your 5, 10, 20 year plan.
Speaker 2:So the model philosophy to life is often multi-generational. The chinese are really good at multi-generational and I think we can learn from that. We can really. We need to really start looking at our companies and our businesses at a much longer perspective and like how can I be sustainable in 25, 30 years? And I need to start building it now. So we need to build it now. It's a crisis that's waiting to happen, and I think we're starting to see the first phrase, the first starts of it. But it's a crisis that's waiting to happen and I think we're starting to see the first phrase, the first starts of it. But it's, yeah, it's. If you don't answer it now, you're going to be too. You know it's going to be quite too late and you'll have a really tough fight on your hands, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great point. Great points when I've worked for listed companies who think quarter to quarter and then year to year.
Speaker 2:It's months to months and I'm going like you're working with. Your sales processes are 18 months long to 24 months long. How can you work months to months? I don't get it.
Speaker 1:You can't, yeah, you can't, it's ridiculous. Thank you so much, lot.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Lisa. I really, really enjoyed it and thank you so much for listening to me and sharing my voice.