What Really Moves Women Into Leadership.... with Dr Amanda Sterling

What actually moves women into leadership? And what just makes work bearable? 

Lisa Mulligan sits down with Dr Amanda Sterling to connect years of PhD research on mothers in leadership with a new survey of 212 women leaders across New Zealand. 

The research asks the question on what makes the biggest different to women successfully navigating their career into leadership roles. 

So what are the results?  Listen in to learn why partner support and manager sponsorship top the list, followed by flexible work and targeted women’s leadership programs. 

And what surprises were at the bottom of the list?

We talk about:

• How embodied experiences like pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, and early caregiving, can forge stronger leaders through vulnerability and connection with others. 
• How outdated leadership models that demand assimilation and overwork need to be reviewed, and 
• The cost of traditional male/female norms such as intensive mothering, and male breadwinner scripts that quietly shape who asks for help, how care is shared, and who opts out of senior roles altogether.

Practical takeaways run throughout so listen in now!

Go to https://dramandasterling.com/ to download Amanda's research.

Chapters

• 0:00 Amanda’s Path And Purpose
• 2:50 Mothers In Leadership: Key PhD Insights
• 7:10 Vulnerability As A Leadership Strength
• 10:05 AI, Human Connection, And Value
• 12:20 Organising, Care, And Gendered Expectations
• 15:46 The 212-Women Survey: Why Solutions
• 17:45 Top Four Accelerators: Partner, Manager, Flex, Programs
• 22:08 Norms, Motherhood, And Asking For Support
• 27:20 Male Allyship: Hygiene Versus Acceleration
• 31:20 Female Allies, Role Models, And Opting Out
• 36:40 Do Programs Help Or Prop Up The System?
• 41:10 The Business Case And Different Thinking
• 44:15 Next Survey: Scaling To One Thousand
• 47:50 Engage Men First: Practical Next Steps
• 51:20 Final Reflections And Thanks

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:03

Welcome to a dog called Diversity, and this week I am very excited to have my friend and colleague Dr. Amanda Sterling on the podcast. Welcome, Amanda. Thank you very much for having me, Lisa. I'm so stoked to be here. Oh, it's my pleasure, and I'm really excited today because you do such good research into women in leadership. And I wondered if you might start out by talking a bit about your background and maybe some of the previous research you've done to get to this point. And then we're going to talk about some recent uh a recent survey that you did. Yes, the the exciting bit.

SPEAKER_02: 0:46

Um gosh, I've got to go back a bit. So to give some context, my my background is in leadership development and culture change. So I've come up through HR, generalist HR, into learning and development, into leadership development and organizational development. So engagement, culture, performance, all of those sorts of things. And I've had a probably a 20-ish year career working within corporate organizations, a lot of trans Tasman, big companies, that sort of thing. Um I decided to do a PhD. I can't remember when it was. It's all blurred, it's all blurred together. So I think 2018, 2019, I decided to do a PhD on women and leadership. Um, and that was because of my own experience coming back to work after becoming a mum. And I I had grown up believing that women could do anything that they wanted to do. And then when I became a mum, I found that that actually wasn't the case. And there were still a lot of systemic barriers for women into leadership roles. So I did a whole PhD to unpack that. And my work now, I've been working um in business now for I think two years, and my work now is blending my corporate experience with my really deep research around leadership, women and leadership, and women at work to help organizations remove barriers for women into leadership roles. That's my tagline. I help organizations remove barriers for women into leadership roles. I've been practicing that at networking functions.

SPEAKER_01: 2:27

But do they listen, Amanda? Do these organizations listen?

SPEAKER_02: 2:32

I think uh, you know, the the ones that I work with do. I think there is a there is very much an appetite out there to support women. Um you know, there are some organizations that still don't really get it, but I think overall there's a big appetite. And I know there's been, you know, we've seen some of the stuff happening in you in the US around rollbacks, around DEI and criticisms of woke and all that kind of thing. But I think the thing that I've noticed in New Zealand is that you know there are some organizations that go, oh my gosh, we're on board with that anti-woke thing as well. But that's the minority, and a lot of organisations, particularly in New Zealand, are going, oh, that's horrible what's happening overseas. We're going to double down on our efforts and actually double down on this, you know, particularly around women and leadership roles and how we advance women's careers, which is really cool to see.

SPEAKER_01: 3:30

Yeah. Yeah, I have I have definitely seen that in New Zealand as well. And for me, it's been really interesting to see which leaders and which organizations actually have courage, yeah. Um, and are willing to stand up, and which ones are not. Um yeah, so I'm interested that your PhD, what were some of the key findings from that research? What were some of the things that you went? Yes, this is really helpful and moves us forward.

SPEAKER_02: 4:02

Yeah, and I I mean my PhD, it was it was an interesting topic to start. I I chose to uh research the experiences of mothers in leadership roles. So what I mean by that is um so I looked at embodied experiences, and that means pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, and care of young children. And that wasn't just um, because there's actually people are always surprised when I say this, there's actually no research that looks at the experiences of mothers in leadership roles within academic literature in any case. Like people go, huh, really? Um, because we know that motherhood remains one of the main barriers for women into leadership. There's no research that looked at mothers in leadership. So I looked at their um embodied experiences of women, and I was curious about what that would tell us about norms of leadership and opportunities to include women and the barriers that women still face. Um, I wasn't surprised by the barriers. Like there's a lot of research that talks about the challenges women face, progressing careers within work environments that are still very much based around male life cycles, characteristics, and work patterns. Um, so for example, this idea that you're in the office nine to five is based on, you know, if you've got kids, that I that whole idea is based on having someone either not having children or someone at home to take care of them. So it naturally um excludes women who are still the primary caregivers. So there's a whole lot of stuff that needs shifting around that. But the bit that really um probably went off on a long-wided tangent to give some through the findings of my research. But the bit about my um doctoral research that I find really exciting is that there were there was a group of women that explained how becoming a mum and those vulnerable experiences that they had gone through and that you know, less having less time, having to have a greater sense of what was important to them, had actually enabled them to be more connected leadership leaders. So they were more connected, they described how they were more connected to themselves, more connected to their families, their communities, and and the people that they lead. And I love um so Brene Brown sums this up because Brene Brown talks a lot about leadership as well. And she says vulnerability is at the heart of connection. And so what happens for these women is we go through, you know, I'm one of these women, you're one of those women as well. We've been through these vulnerable experiences. Um, we go through these experiences and they make us vulnerable. But that is actually our superpower because it allows us to connect with ourselves, our families, and other people. And and leadership, like this idea of leadership and in achieving a common goal and leading people in order to achieve something, is based on connecting with people and connecting, you know, we call that inspiring or motivating or whatever words you want to use. At the heart of all of that is connection. We only connect when we're vulnerable. So there's a lot in you know these women's experiences that I found really exciting because it was about um flipping the narrative from, you know, we often associate when women become mothers, it makes us weaker because we're tired and there's stuff going on with our bodies. But actually, you where what I found was that where women's experiences were explicitly recognized and supported, they were engaging in these very much more powerful forms of leadership. Um, so I find that really exciting because I mean I could probably talk talk more, Lisa, but I think that has that has implications for diversity and inclusion of women in leadership roles, but also the critical capabilities that businesses need to survive and thrive.

SPEAKER_01: 8:04

Yeah, yeah. And I've been um thinking about the introduction of technology and AI and what that's gonna mean for human capabilities and the things that are unique to humans. And it is the vulnerability and the connection and our ability to bring people together. That is gonna become more and more important um as AI can take over the tasks that are routine and boring and can be automated. And so, yeah, that that's beg gonna become more and more important.

SPEAKER_02: 8:38

Um Yeah, and then and then this, you know, this becomes I I'm not someone who like, I don't particularly like, you know, we have to justify the the business case for including people with different experiences. Um, because actually it should be part of just what we do, but there is a significant business case for it, and it's not just in you know terms of innovation and recognizing um human potential, but it is in that how do we help people bring, you know, how do we help bring people together who have different lived experiences to solve some of the complex problems that we're facing, and you have to bring your differences and your humanness into that because there is, like you say, that difference between what we as humans can do and what AI is going to take over.

SPEAKER_01: 9:27

Yeah, yeah. I couldn't agree more. Um, one of the things I noticed when I had my first child, I don't know if I noticed I was more connected, maybe I was, but I really noticed that I was more organized, and that was really helpful in the workplace. You know, all of a sudden I can't be just going to work and taking my time to do things. I I got really focused, and I actually think that helped my career. Yeah. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 9:55

So I I I think I probably have a a slightly different take on that because I think there's some um, and I have this is why I love having conversations with people because we often dis we often have very different perspectives on things and take them out as well. Um, but that whole like I think there's often an organ first of all, there's an expectation that women are the primary caregivers, and then there's an expectation that we, you know, and we and we do have to be more organized in in order to manage work and home and all of those things. And so it almost becomes this competency that women develop to be really organized, and yes, it does help us in our roles and at work, but I have a have a different take on this, Lisa, because I realized, you know, um not long ago, because I was organizing things and I was like, I've been, you know, I I became a mum, and that became one of my skills too, is being really well organized. I had this realization that I hate organizing things. I hate it. But I feel like I have not told you that. No, you have told me that. Yeah, so I have told you that, but I hate organizing things. But I've you know, I've felt like because I've been the mum that I'm supposed to be well organized and supposed to like all of these things, and then and I kind of went, I don't like any of these things. I hate these things, I hate this whole expectation that I'm supposed to actually like any of this, and I don't I think my take on that was when I returned to work, it wasn't it wasn't that I had the expectation that I had to care for the child 100%.

SPEAKER_01: 11:47

It's like and maybe I did organize this, but you know, I my husband and I shared that care, and who would drop off at child care, who would pick up at child care, who would give dinner and get them into bed, um, you know, stuff that you do on the weekend, it was very much shared. Yeah. Um which is perhaps a nice connection to your recent survey. So you've done a PhD. You thought I thought that maybe um that would that might have put you off research, but no. Obviously not. Um tell me about the recent survey that you've undertaken.

SPEAKER_02: 12:33

So the my recent, you said my recent survey was so it was a survey of 212 women in leadership roles um in New Zealand, mostly focusing on New Zealand. I do have expansion plans, but just not right now. Um to understand what was having the most positive impact on their careers into leadership and what the critical gaps were for organizations. So I've spent, I think I added it up the other day, like Josh, my son is eight now. I started my PhD when he was one. Um so I've spent probably the better part of the last seven years immersed in research around women at work and women in leadership. And you know, even in the last couple of years, even if it's not academic research, reasoning like reading like the McKinsey, the Deloitte World Economic Forum papers around um women at work and what the barriers and problems are progressing women into leadership roles. So a lot of problem-focused stuff. So a lot of we know a lot of the problems that uh that women face. It's been researched to death, but the most common question I was getting asked was, okay, so what are the solutions? And I was like, okay, so what are the solutions? Where is the research on the solutions? And I kind of looked around, and you read um, you know, like the McKinsey reports a good example, and they'll most 80% of the report will be problem, problem, problem, and then there'll be this little bit tacked on at the end around and here's some possible solutions. And I'm like, well, how do you know that those are connected to those problems? And actually, can we amplify those in some ways? Because the other thing I was noticing in having like because I do a lot of work with senior leaders, and we would talk about the problem that they face in their organization, and I would just watch their body language and like their shoulders would sag. You just see the energy go down in the room, and like it was like the energy was getting sucked out of them. I was like, this isn't helpful because it feels really overwhelming and it feels like too much, and people don't actually know where to start. So I decided to do this survey to understand the solutions and what was having the most positive impact on women's careers, and like, and then how do we amplify those things?

SPEAKER_01: 14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 14:55

So I did this survey was earlier this year, got the report. Do you want me to tell you what the findings are?

SPEAKER_00: 15:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I like how you say you got the report. You actually had to write the report, and that was all. I had to write the report.

SPEAKER_02: 15:11

I had to write the report, but it was fascinating writing it and unpacking all of what was in there. And there were so many, there were, there were different ways I could cut it, but there were definitely some clear markers around what that report needed to focus on.

SPEAKER_01: 15:26

Yeah. So what were your top findings?

SPEAKER_02: 15:29

So my top findings. So there's there's one question in there that is the most powerful one. It was at the end. And I asked women, what are the top three things having the most positive impact on your career into leadership? And I had listed all of the things that have come up in the research and the case studies and the conversations I've had with organizations around what people talk about as the solutions. And I listed all of them, all of the ones I know, and asked women to rank the top three factors. The four that came out on top. So there were two that were first equal. First one was partner support, so having a partner who takes on equal caregiving and domestic labour or is the primary caregiver. And then the second one was manager support. So having a manager who encourages your career, puts you forward for key developing key opportunities, um, basically supports your career. So manager support and partner support were the top two factors, and they were followed reasonably closely by flexible work and leadership development for women. Yeah, which is yeah, not quite what I was expecting. What were you expecting? I I actually don't know, like I actually don't know what I was expecting. Um I think like because I've been having lots of conversations with women in leadership, and and you know, you and I did this case study with Z Energy last year as well. Yeah, yeah. Um but I wasn't quite expecting the degree of like this is actually one of the top factors having the most positive impact on women's careers into leadership. I wasn't quite expecting that. Um it being up there, but not one of the top things.

SPEAKER_01: 17:34

Okay. Because I I want to talk about some of these things from my experience, and supportive managers agree completely. I've probably had three or four amazing leaders, men, who supported my career, sponsored me, um, you know, advocated for me when I wasn't in the room, which meant I got career-changing opportunities. So completely got that one. Um, I also got I completely got partner support. Um but one of the things that's interesting, and I've learned this through coaching women and sometimes coaching women when they're uh going to off to have a baby or returning back to work. And that sometimes to get that partner support, the woman needs to kind of be the person saying, you know, I gave birth to the baby, but that doesn't mean I know how to do everything. And so you to get the support, you have to be willing to go to your partner. I don't know everything, so you've got to join me on this journey. Um, and when they do things with your child that are not the way you do them, you've got to be okay with it. And I was surprised that partner support was so high, given that I don't see many women advocating for themselves with their partner to get the support they need anecdotally. So I thought that one was really interesting. Um I wondered, was there anything else in the survey that kind of gave some light to that score?

SPEAKER_02: 19:20

Not in the survey. I mean, it it's you know, these sorts of these sorts of things don't capture all of the nuance behind it. I can talk to some of the patterns I've seen in the research around this topic. Um, because I a lot of so a lot of my PhD was around looking at norms. So what I mean by norms were patterns, what we see, how we talk about something. Um those norms are really powerful because they define, they define our roles within society and they define who's credible, and they define, you know, how we judge or how we perceive other people. And there are some really strong norms around leadership work and put and around motherhood. So there's this idea that um, you know, in the there's a book that I I can't remember it off the top of my head, but I can send you the link to. But there's this idea of intensive mothering, and it's this idea that women are expected to put aside their own concerns to look after their children. Um World Health Organization recommends that we breastfeed for at least two years, which is a long time if you've ever That's a long time to give up your body. Yep, yeah. And then you know, what if you're also you know you're going back to work after 12 months maximum? Like that's that's a big thing to navigate all of that. Um, and so we still as a society have these norms and expectations of women that you know what a good mother looks like and what her role is and how she enacts that. And it's really powerful. Um notice it in how women judge other women for breastfeeding or not, or going to work, or are she works with powers? Like um, one of the pieces of research I, you know, I talk about now is an analysis of the media commentary surrounding our New Zealand's Prime Minister, Dame Jacinda Ardern. So when she announced her birth, um, sorry, she announced her pregnancy in 2018, um, and there was a research paper done on the media commentary, and one of the quotes that I love to use is women should not be in power if they are also birthing babies.

SPEAKER_01: 21:37

And so where does that come from?

SPEAKER_02: 21:39

But it comes from how we talk about it, and you see this play out even now in some of the um, you know, the Ministry for Women has just done a piece of work with a a toolkit around online harm and digital safety for female politicians because women in the public space are more likely to be subject to harassment, death threats, threats against their family, all sorts of nasty stuff. Like this is how we treat women. So, you know, there are there are multiple layers, and I'll kind of dial back from we'll pull you up out of it. All of this stuff comes from norms, what we understand is normal around our roles within society. So for women and mothers and stuff. So back to you know, mothers and asking for partner support, many women, we're still internalizing this is our role and our expectation is to do all of this stuff. We were told that we could have these amazing careers, but we also want to be really good mothers. And so women are but women are burning out trying to do it all. Um, I had women in my uh my doctoral research talk about like the voices in my head or the expectations I put on myself. This is all messaging that we're constantly surrounded by about what being a good mother looks like. And so it's not necessarily our fault that we're internalizing all of this and going, oh, well, I can't give it over to my partner because this is my role. And as soon as I do that, I'm not fulfilling this whole idea of good mother that I've been brought up with or been exposed to for the last 20, 30, 40 years. Like it's trying to unpack all of this messaging to then hand over something to our partners who are also who have also been brought up with this messaging around what the role is of a man and what the role is of a father, and kind of some of these male breadwinner ideas as well. And so this this this stuff is really strong and it permeates the way we understand ourselves, and then how we can navigate this, and it is being challenged now, and more women are you know realizing this and going, actually, I want to push back, but there's also another hard thing to do when you're caught up in that sleep deprivation of new motherhood and everything else, and we're told that we're supposed to naturally do it all, but I didn't know there was nothing natural about that felt about it for me. Um, and then now I've got to have a conversation with my partner around how we split that that equally, and that's gonna be really, really weird and awkward. Um, so it's a bit of a in a nutshell, it's a bit of a cluster, and it's not a surprise that women aren't asking for that help because we've been told not to in a variety of different ways. Um but yes, back to the point the the partner support, like the women who have progressed their careers, it has been really impactful, and there is more work and more examples now coming about out, and we're talking about it more as well, around the impact that this has on women's careers. And actually, it is really important for us to have those conversations. You shouldn't feel guilty for doing so.

SPEAKER_01: 25:14

No, I didn't. And and I think that one in particular is so interesting because a lot of the work we do in organizations, that one we usually have no control over.

unknown: 25:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:28

And organizations don't have control over because we have a society-wide um challenge about the norms of what it's like to be a mum and a woman. Um so yeah, I think that one's really great. But it's almost like you've got to get girls when they're in primary school and start talking to them about you know how women show up in society and you know, what's I guess the expectation, but what other options are there and starting to do that early.

SPEAKER_02: 26:06

Yeah, and boys too. And boys, boys, yeah, yeah. So I um I'll share a little cute story because th this was a a couple of years ago. So my my I've got an eight-year-old son, and I have a I'm separated from his dad, but we have an almost equal parenting relationship. And a couple of years ago, we had we lived in this house that had ducks, and the ducks would come and visit, and then they'd bring their baby ducks with them, and we'd feed all the baby ducks, and they'd poo all over my deck, was a whole which was a whole nother thing. All of these baby ducks, and then one day we went outside and there was this one little baby duck by themselves, and my son um he he gave it some food and some water, and he's like, Oh, I can be, I can be the the baby duck's mum. I'll look after it and I'll be the baby duck's mum. And then he kind of paused and he went, ah, no, I can't, no, I don't need to be the baby duck's mum, I'll be the baby duck's dad. And it was just like this moment of for him, like this, I kind of went, Oh my gosh, I felt so proud in that moment. Because for him, looking after this young baby wasn't just a mum job, like he'd almost taken a pause and gone, actually, this is a dad's job. Dads can equally look after these babies as mums can. And so he'd gone, well, I'm not a mum, I'm a boy, so I'm gonna be the dad here, and that's equally as valid as and important. And it's such a small example, but it for me, it was just like he sees his dad take an active role in his life as much as he sees his mum take an active role in his life, and so he's now growing up with this idea that dad's parent just as much as mum's.

SPEAKER_01: 27:56

Yeah, I was really I hope that continues, Amanda, because I've got two boys and um they have had a similar experience. Um my husband and I have looked after them equally. I have travelled a lot in my career, and so many times I've spent more times with their dad. Um we've moved overseas numerous times. For my job, I've been the main breadwinner, and still my 16-year-old comes home with the most misogynistic comments and jokes, and I'm like, where in society did this stuff kick in? It's so frustrating when you think you've shown a good model and like an equal model, or you know, and then society gets them. It's very frustrating.

SPEAKER_02: 28:50

Yeah, yeah. And you I think you've just got to like I 100% understand that. Oh, my son came home from school and he was like, I can't wear pink, I don't want to wear pink, it's a girl's colour. And I was like, What are you talking about? It's pink, like, yeah, um, and he's been told as well, um by family members to not cry. Boys don't cry. And I was like, that's a red ray ball for me. Like, you can cry. Do you believe that you're allowed to cry? And he's like, Yes, well, let's not listen to those people, you're allowed to cry. Um, but it's you can't control what other people do, we can just do the best that we can, and then hopefully the rest of society catches up. But I think there are more people thinking about and actively working to do something differently and show something different as well.

SPEAKER_01: 29:38

Yeah. I'm wondering, I mean, you had a whole laundry list of things that make an impact to supporting women's careers into leadership roles. Um, and so the top four or the top three, which were like having a supportive manager, which is what I would call sponsor. Sponsorship, um, leadership development programs and flexible work. They're common things that organizations do. Were there some things that turned up that were way down the bottom that organizations are doing, but they they may or may not be helpful? Did you find anything like that?

SPEAKER_02: 30:18

I don't I'm gonna caveat my response to yes, there were a few things that organizations are investing a lot into that scored really lowly. And I've I've got the survey up. So they were male allies, um, which is a big thing at the moment. A lot of organizations doing male allyship training, so that was only 15% impact, mentoring 13%, female allies 13%, and male role models 2%. And so we often see mentoring and like mentoring and sponsorship programs as initiatives organizations are doing to support women's careers, and of course, male allies is the big thing as well. Um it did surprise me that those were so low down on the list, but I guess my my disc there's a couple of disclaimers in that, in this. The we're looking at the things that have the most positive impact, and where organizations who have limited budgets and limited resources can best focus their attention for maximum impact. Mentoring and sponsorship, those are things that can be rolled up into a very well-designed leadership development program focused on women. I guess what this highlights is that this is a systemic, like this is this needs to be treated systemically rather than okay, we're gonna do a mentoring program and tick a box, and we've kind of done stuff to walk to um these careers into leadership. The male allyship piece is is an interesting one, and I have some thoughts that I want to share on that.

unknown: 31:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 32:00

That is like, you know, as I said, there's a lot of organizations running male allies programs at the moment, and I do a similar thing. One of my bread and butter pieces of work is running workshops specifically targeted at men to build inclusive leadership capabilities. That's called really low low in here. But there's a couple of really important things to note, and I'm just gonna find the page that talks to the factors. Where is it? Um, because the male allyship category was actually very specific around where is it? Um, you have had explicit support from men, for example, through language and behaviors that have made you feel welcome and valued in leadership. That is quite a different thing from accelerating women's careers. So I hear a lot about um some microaggressions directed at women. So you make the cup of coffee, inappropriate comments, like um, you know, who's looking at your, who's looking after your children today, you know, the standard things, women being talked over in meetings, having their ideas dismissed, you know, to sexual harassment and all those sorts of things. That kind of falls into that bucket of you feel safe and comfortable to show up as you are. To me, those are hygiene factors, not necessarily career accelerators. So remember, we're talking about what are the things that have had the most positive impact on women's career, progressing women's careers into leadership. These are these male allyship characteristics, they're just what we need to actually show up to work.

SPEAKER_01: 33:45

Yeah. So if they're not there, they're a detractor.

SPEAKER_02: 33:50

Potentially, yes. Yeah, yeah. They just make those environments less palatable, like or less, less hospitable to women. So I think you we need those things. We need that male allyship within workplaces. But to me, that's kind of like stage one in addressing women's career progression. If you want to level up on that, you need to be doing the male, um, sorry, the manager support piece, which is actively supporting women's careers, so putting women forward for key opportunities, sponsoring me, like sponsoring and mentoring can be rolled into that as well. So actively supporting women's careers. One is hygiene, and the other is career acceleration. So two different things. Also important to keep in mind that a lot of the male allyship development that's happening right now is like the last two years-ish. You can't really expect to have seen an impact on women's careers yet. So, you know, the question asks what has had the most positive impact on your career, and I'm asking that of women who are in leadership roles. So we might not have seen kind of those interventions and initiatives flow through to supporting, like to actually seeing the woman seeing the impact of that yet.

SPEAKER_01: 35:17

Right. How do you explain or do you have thoughts on the female allies? Because it's even lower than male allies, and you're saying it's valued but it's not career defining. What's your take on that? Because I have a take, but I'm wondering what's your take?

SPEAKER_02: 35:37

Do you want to share your take first?

SPEAKER_01: 35:39

Um and yeah, so my take is that we value female allies um and we value seeing women in leadership roles because of this, we can't be what we can't see. So having women in leadership roles is helpful. Um but my experience at times has been that the generation of women who are now in those very senior roles who are in executive teams or on boards, at times to get to those roles have had to take on male characteristics to get there. Um, so they might be more aggressive, um, which is terrible because women get caught that anyway, but have um have not necessarily used the strengths that women bring to leadership to get to where they are. And because of that, I wonder if women look at those women and go, I don't, I don't want to be like that. If if I get to that leadership role and if I have to behave that way, I don't want to do it, so I'm out. Yeah. That's my take, which may or may not be fair, but yeah, what what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02: 36:55

I think you've beautifully summed up my take on that as well. And this is you know, I've done a my PhD was with women in leadership. I have a lot of conversations with women in leadership roles, particularly around like there's a difference I notice, and this is un unscientific because just based on well, some of it's scientific because it's based on my my doctoral research, but it's a pattern I see repeated. But a generation of women, so we're in our late 30s, early 40s, we were brought up to believe that women could do anything, and now we feel like we have to do everything, and we're in post-COVID, and most you know, a lot of us have kids who are still young and in primary school, and we're going, if that's what leadership looks like, if that's what it takes, I'm looking at those female role models. I don't I don't want that. No. Um, I had one of my research participants actually sum this up. So she was talking about her female CEO, and she said, it's like she's broken the glass ceiling and she expects us to crawl over the broken glass.

unknown: 37:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 37:58

So it is that idea that women have progressed their careers through no fault of their own because they're often their own one, and that's the only way that women have been able to get ahead is by playing, you know, the masculine game. But it's it's setting this expectation that actually we don't want to do that anymore. And then women are going, well, I'm gonna opt out, and organizations going, oh, but women aren't putting themselves forward for these roles. Well, actually, if you want women in that space, you need to change that space and expectations. Um, I have another thought, but I'll I'll take a pause. My brain's now rattling to what we need, what organizations need in order to be successful and thriving. But there is this disconnect between what we've seen come before and what women are expecting, navigating now.

SPEAKER_01: 38:58

I would add to that um it's not just seeing how women have to behave in those roles, it's men as well. And often when I'm coaching women, and um I I had a classic one who said to me, Oh Lisa, I'd like to be in more senior roles, and um and I'm ambitious, but I don't want to be a CEO. And and I was looking at this woman who would have been the most incredible CEO, she was unbelievably talented. And I'm like, tell me more about that. Why wouldn't you want to be a CEO? And then the the current CEO is a man, and she said, I I don't want to do what he does, which is similar to the whip the women thing as well, and so I then go back and challenge around, well, maybe there's a different model of leadership and you could lead differently and do it differently. And sometimes putting that thought in their head, they'll start to think about oh, maybe you're right, maybe I could do that. But the other thing I wanted to come back on the, you know, one of the most helpful things for women are leadership programs. That was in your top three. Um and I have been the recipient of a number of leadership programs, both mixed gender and also women's programs. And they have been so helpful for me, and and I now facilitate those programs. But some of the things not all, but some of the things that we teach women are about how to navigate in a system that's built by men. And so we're almost the leadership programs are awesome, but we're almost we're you know repeating and making the same mistakes almost.

SPEAKER_02: 40:48

Um that continued emphasis on leadership development. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 40:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 40:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 41:00

Yeah, and I and I agree, and I've been heavily critical of leadership development programs for women. I still do have a question mark around them. I think they are, I mean, as the as the the data shows, they are very impactful for women's careers. And they are necessary, and they are needed because actually women need safe space to explore their experiences, get um get peer support, learn how to navigate the system that's outlined. They are necessary, um, but there's a balance here between women being individually accountable and responsible for their careers, which we should be, and leadership development programs help us with that, to addressing the systemic barriers that women face progressing into leadership. So, can we um be caregivers and have a leadership role? Can we do part-time flexible work and have a leadership role? What kinds of microaggressions are we going to face? Are we going to be subject to marginalization and discrimination? Um, can we take um maternity, parental care, and still like there are just so many barriers. Like we actually need to address those systemic issues because there's no point equipping women with their skills and then going, okay, girls, but you know, nothing is actually going to change, and we're still going to expect you to assimilate or deal with all of this crap when you get into leadership to start, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 42:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 42:30

This is uh, I think what the survey highlighted and where this data becomes powerful is it goes actually, you need to, I'm pretty sure I say it in there, you need to treat this as a systemic project of it's not just about tick box, done a woman in leadership development program. We've kind of kept the girls happy, but nothing else is going to change. You need to look at some of those other things that are limiting the opportunities for women to bring their whole selves to be authentic in leadership roles because you don't need more of the same, like that representation data can be a bit misleading. Like we go, okay, you've got women in leadership. Well, are they actually able to bring their unique skills and capabilities into those leadership roles? Because that's a different thing.

SPEAKER_01: 43:22

Yeah, completely. And as as you were talking, I was thinking about a couple of organizations that I know and work with who are women-run and majority women in those businesses. And they have completely different ways of working, they've just disbanded whatever a big corporate would do and just do what suits them to support women and to deal with some of those barriers that they're having to deal with. Which and they have successful businesses, so it's kind of like, what, what?

SPEAKER_02: 43:58

Yeah. Well, the the interesting thing is, and I I've just done a summarized um there's a a resource I've just put on my on my website around the business case for women in leadership. Not that I like arguing the business case, but sometimes it is helpful to have some data. And actually, there is a very strong business case. Like, this isn't just a nice to have, even though you should be doing it at any case, but there is a massive business case behind it. Like, so for example, there's a Forbes research paper that said women already make 80% of household purchasing decisions. 80% women are the fastest growing wealth demographic in the world. Like we're we're stepping in for unprecedented amounts of money. You you think about those numbers and then you go, okay, does your leadership team understand the needs of your primary and fastest growing customer base? Because if you don't have women represented there, chances are you don't and you're going to miss the ball. The second thing I want to note is that this is like this is actually about including different lived experiences or people with different perspectives that come from different lived experiences in decision making, in you know, the the decisions that matter. Because what we're dealing with right now is we've got AI, things are changing really fast, we've got climate change, um, markets are shifting. In New Zealand, we're in an economic downturn as well. There's a cluster of stuff going on, complex, complicated problems, and we're not going to solve them with the same thinking that we've had over the last couple of centuries. We need different thinking. And so there is a strategic advantage for organizations that make space, and this goes beyond women, for different people with different lived experiences to bring those perspectives into decision-making spaces and solve complex problems. It's good for women, it's good for everybody, it's good for businesses.

SPEAKER_01: 46:06

It just I know what what is next for you in your work? What are you what are you doing next?

SPEAKER_02: 46:17

So many different things. Yeah. But one of the main so I'm doing the survey again. I'm you so your podcast will be one of the first places that I'm that I'm talking about at. So early next year I'm going to be running the survey again and then moving to doing it biannually. But I want to get a thousand um participants. So we had 212, which was a great number. A thousand gives me more validity. Um people can't ignore it when it's a thousand women. It also gives the opportunity to break it down by, so for example, C-suite versus board women. Are there different things that are impacting on their careers? It gives the opportunity to break it down by industry. So the financial service sector services sector versus industry, and are there different things that are happening in different um industries? Are different industries doing different things to support women, or are there critical gaps or opportunities different in different spaces? And so to give a bit more of a nuanced understanding around what industries and organizations can do within their particular context. So that is the I'm planning that now. You know, um, I need a lot of help to get to a thousand. So I'm working through what that looks like and who I need to talk to and what I need to ask them and what resources I need to create, and all of the stuff that sits around that. Um, so there's an invitation in this for me. If if there's any people listening to this, you're connected with a network of women in leadership and would be keen to help promote the survey, or they work with an organization that wants to understand their own context and also contribute that data to this survey, then I would love to talk to them about that.

SPEAKER_01: 48:13

Cool. So if people want to help you with your survey or work with you, find out more about your research, how do they do that?

SPEAKER_02: 48:22

Uh so the best uh they can connect with me on LinkedIn, that's probably the best place to start and send me a message through there. Or go to my website, which is uh dramandasterling.com, and that's Sterling with an E. People get that wrong all the time. So Sterling with an E. Um, and connect with me through there.

SPEAKER_01: 48:45

Awesome. I want to give you the opportunity if there was something that we didn't cover, maybe a point that you wanted to get across. Is there anything that you'd like to leave the lessoners with?

SPEAKER_02: 49:00

Oh gosh, you're asking me to summarize in a minute now. I think the main thing, like I always land my work going, this is you know, this is about getting more women represented in spaces of decision making in power. And it's important for our organizations to, in order to survive and thrive, which is everything that's going on. But we've spent the last couple of decades focusing on women and empowering women to step up and lead without actually considering the role of men in this. And so if we look at those top two factors, manager support and partner support, the top two, men are still the majority in management roles. Men are still the majority. Yep. Partners the woman.

unknown: 49:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 49:50

So a lot of this next wave centers on men, and I think you know, this this data and this research is really helpful, but there is a risk that organizations pick it up and go, oh, cool, we're gonna do a parental leave policy and we're gonna do a leadership and we're gonna go sit tick-tick-tick. But actually, the critical place to start is engaging men in a conversation. So don't, you know, actions are helpful and we want to do that, but we need to engage men in a conversation around why this is important, why women are still encountering these barriers, what those barriers are, what the role of men is in that, and no blame. Um, you know, the the way I frame it up is like we all have different perspectives, and there are historical perspectives that have shaped our experiences. We need to acknowledge that in order to move on. But we need to engage men in those conversations in really safe and supported ways. And so, you know, if there's any recommendation I have for organizations who are picking up and reading the report, is start by engaging men in those conversations about what this means because it works for them as well. I do workshops with men in leadership roles, and it comes up time and time again. Their biggest regret is not being present with their kids, and actually they want this stuff too. Um, yeah, yeah. So that's my main takeaway. And if anyone listening to this wants help and support with that, um, then I'm your girl on that.

SPEAKER_01: 51:22

Yeah. Yep. Thank you so much, Amanda. Um that was a great conversation, and we hadn't spoken about your latest survey yet, so it was really great to sit down and actually talk through some of the results and unpick them a little bit. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02: 51:40

Thank you so much for having me. And that is the first time I've talked them through and unpacked them in that way, and so it was really nice to go. This is really like I and I love these conversations, and yeah, it was really enjoyable to unpack it as well. So thank you.