MBS968- Inclusify With Dr. Stefanie K. Johnson

Humans have two basic desires: to stand out and to fit in. Companies respond by creating groups that tend to the extreme—where everyone fits in and no one stands out, or where everyone stands out and no one fits in. How do we find that happy medium where workers can demonstrate their individuality while also feeling they belong?
The answer, according to Stefanie Johnson, is to Inclusify. In this essential handbook, she explains what it means to Inclusify and how it can be used to strengthen any business. Inclusifying—unlike “diversifying” or “including”— implies a continuous, sustained effort towards helping diverse teams feel engaged, empowered, accepted, and valued. It’s no use having diversity if everyone feels like an outsider, she contends.

In her research, Johnson found common problems leaders exhibit which frustrate their attempts to create diverse and cohesive teams. Leaders that underestimated the importance of group coherence and dynamics often have employees who do not feel like they belong; leaders that ignore the benefits of listening to different perspectives leave some people feeling like they cannot be their authentic selves.
By contrast, leaders who Inclusify can forge strong relationships with their teams, inspire greater productivity from all of their workers, and create a more positive environment for everyone. Having a true range of different voices is good for the bottom line—it allows for the development of the best, most innovative, and creative solutions that are essential to success. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Great studies, better than my studies that look at twins reared separately and reared together. It's identical twins and paternal twins. They do all these combinations and try to figure out is leadership born or is it taught, right? Or learned and overwhelmingly the data show leadership is learned. It's developed. You could be twins, which means you have the same exact DNA and not have similar levels of leadership. So you can certainly learn it. And if it's learned, then I that means to me it can be taught, right? Or you can help at least accelerate people's learning process.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Hi there guys, welcome back to the Map Brown show and thank you for pushing play. Today our guest is Professor Stephanie K. Johnson. She is an author, doctor, keynote speaker, and studies the intersection of leadership and diversity, focusing on one, how unconscious bias affects the evaluation of leaders, and two, strategies that leaders can use to mitigate bias. Today we're talking about her book, Inclusive the Power of Uniqueness and Belonging, to build innovative teams. We cover a lot of ground in this book today. Just a couple more things to mention about Dr. Johnson. She is a member of the MG100 Coaches and was selected for the 2020 Thinkers 50 radar list comprising of 30 international management scholars. She works with the best companies in the world to create inclusive leaders and really is at the cutting edge of the intersection between data science and equality and the real world of business, which is kind of where we all play. She has presented her work at over 170 meetings around the world, including the White House and even the Summit on Diversity in Corporate America on National Equal Pay Day. And of course, as you would expect, featured on all sorts of media outlets The Economist, Wall Street, Journal, Bloomberg, Huffington Post, Washington, TNBC, blah blah blah. So uh just a real uh class act, and uh we had such a great conversation today, uh specifically about uh you know equality and what it really means to be living in an equal world. Uh we touch on the drivers of an inclusive workforce, we talk about gender disparities, we talk about how we as leaders uh can uh work with uh transformational leadership as a principle. Um, and can we you know develop it as a skill or is it taught? We talk about uh diversity bias, such an important point. And I share a personal story I recently had where uh I was declined uh for a particular uh gig based on the basis of my skin, uh which was a uh a stark reminder really and an acute reminder of how uh inequality still exists in many facets of the world today. Uh, we talk about systems and leadership and what systems do to drive the equality agenda or inequality agenda, depending on the system. Uh, we talk about equality of economics, uh future compensation structures, and a cool story about a bot who put everyone in his company from the CEO all the way down to the junior people and staff on $70,000 per month salary. Everybody owns the same, and we share some interesting outcomes from that exercise. And don't forget, guys, if you would like to join the conversation, you can do that at SMERocketfuel.com and join our community, access funding, access new markets, and just connect with other entrepreneurs and founders from around the world who are curious about building the things that matter to them. So without further ado, into Stephanie Johnson. Hey guys, welcome back to yet another cracking instalment of the MapRound show. Today I am joined um by an incredibly awesome talent. So super excited to get into all about her and amazing work that she's doing in leadership and diversity. Uh, welcome to the show. Uh, Dr. Stephanie Johnson.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Yeah, you're very welcome. Uh so um lots to get into today. So we're gonna be uh talking about uh your book here called uh Inclusively. So I'm just gonna bring it up for everybody. Uh it is available on Amazon. Go and get it. It's got amazing uh uh five-star reviews. So the book's called Inclusivy: The Power of Uniqueness and Belonging to Build Innovative Teams. So um it's gonna be quite a quite a ride today. So uh Stephanie, why don't you kick us off with the elevator pitch? Uh I've been reading your bio. I'm gonna have to have the world's longest podcast intro to cover like just some of what you've achieved. Uh but uh but in all seriousness, uh what do you what do we need to know here? Like um give us the elevator pitch. Who are you? What are you about? What lights you up?

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Oh yeah, so I'm a college professor uh at the School of Business at the University of Colorado in Boulder, great place. And um I study leadership. That's just kind of been the topic that's fascinated me since a really young age. Like as a high school student, I was like, I want to go study leadership and be a professor. Um, and I am. And then um I think the most pressing challenge for leaders today is really how to create diverse and inclusive workforces. And that's what Inclusify is about is just practical strategies that leaders can utilize to make their probably already diverse workforces and more inclusive. So people want to stay, they feel engaged, they can thrive, and the result is greater innovation and performance.

SPEAKER_03 5:49

And um and is this something that diversific, you know, the diversification of the workforce, et cetera, where did the spark come from to cover this and write it in the depth that you that you have?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah, you know, the the diversity part I think came out of constantly finding disparities in my data on leadership around gender. And there's I mean there's racial disparities too, but usually the number of um people of color and leadership levels, at least in the US, is so low that you don't have enough data to actually test it. But for women, you know, there's there's women. So they're if I'm trying to predict what makes leaders effective, or like my big thing is how can I train leaders to be more effective? Leaders want to be effective, right? They're a very captive audience of people who want to grow and develop. And so I'm gonna tell them what to do, so I'm gonna study this. And then the things to do, the strategies are always very different for women than for men leaders. And so I was like, what's going on here? I need to figure out why I keep finding these weird differences for women. And it was basically comes down to something we all know now, but 20 years ago we maybe didn't know it. But it was that when women are really assertive and fit the leader stereotypes of being like powerful and aggressive, they're viewed negatively. And when men do the same thing, they're viewed positively. And so for women, what my big aha was is they really have to kind of do both. They have to do, you know, be super powerful and assertive and competent, but also be kind and caring and nurturing for their employees, which is a lot for any leader to do. Um and so this is a very long answer to your question, but I decided I would just figure that out, check, and then move on. And I still haven't really figured out exactly what the answer is in this case, because uh, you know, times are changing faster than my research can catch up. So I think the advice is probably different today than it was 20 years ago. And that's what's fun than the inclusive eye book, uh, because that's really only half the battle is getting the diversity. But then if people don't feel engaged and welcomed and that they can get ahead, then they just leave. And so then I'm like, well, because you need inclusion. So that's where that book came from.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Awesome. Um, so I'd want to get into this idea of you know transformative leadership as it as it relates to it being a skill. Is is well, what is in your definition, 20 years of research, lots of data? What where does your uh uh point of view now lie in the sense of the you know transformative leadership? What does that mean definitively for you? And is it a skill that uh uh you know a founder entrepreneur such as myself and you know who knows who else is listening to us around the world, is it something that they can learn as well? Stay with us, we'll be right back. Hey there. I know being an entrepreneur can be a very lonely experience. You sometimes get stuck, don't you? Well, if you're like me, being stuck sucks. But what if you could access the minds of over 850 CEOs who have built companies generating billions of dollars in revenue and access all of that knowledge in a fraction of a second? Well, the good news is you can literally do that today. What my team have built is Matt Brown AI. It is trained on all the interviews, over 850 of them that I've done to date, all my books, all the knowledge capital that's been generated over the last 10 years right here on the Matt Brown Show. And you can get access to all of that right now for free. So, how do you get access to this? Well, head on over to mapbrown show.com and at the top you'll see community. Hit that link, sign up, it's absolutely free, and you'll be given instant access to MacBrown AI and a community of over a hundred thousand subscribers.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. So there's great studies, better than my studies that look at twins reared separately and reared together as identical twins and paternal twins. They do all these combinations and try to figure out is leadership born or is it taught, right? Or learned and overwhelmingly the data show leadership is learned. It's easy to develop. You can be twins, which means you have the same exact DNA and not have similar levels of leadership. So you can certainly learn it. And if it's learned, then I that means to me it can be taught, right? Or you can help at least accelerate people's learning process. And I would say for the the most important skill for leaders today, um, in my view at least, and I think there's some good data to support this, is really about listening and having empathy, trying to understand other people's perspectives. Um I think it helps for diversity and inclusion to be able to understand not everyone has the same life experiences as you do, but also for dealing with like a pretty constant crises that are emerging. If you want to keep be able to support and empower your team, which I think is this is what leaders do, right? You you want to get the best out of them and develop them to their full capacity. Um, if it's you know transforming them and the organization, then I think you have to understand them. And I think it's not a hard skill to learn, but it does take practice. I think of it like a muscle. If you're not listening, you forget how to listen. And the sad story is that we're often very good at listening, but as we gain leadership and we're the person who's the founder or running the company, we're not listening as much as we're talking because we're selling our ideas and we're directing people on what to do. And so we we actually let that empathy muscle atrophy and instead become really maybe we become more charismatic speakers, maybe we become very um good at influencing people, but less good at at the listening side, which I think is what employees need right now more than ever.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Stay with us. We'll be right back.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

Hey there. I know being an entrepreneur can be a very lonely experience. You sometimes get stuck, don't you? Well, if you're like me, being stuck sucks. But what if you could access the minds of over 850 CEOs who have built companies generating billions of dollars in revenue and access all of that knowledge in a fraction of a second? Well, the good news is you can literally do that today. What my team have built is MathBrown AI. It is trained on all the interviews, over 850 of them that I've done to date, all my books, all the knowledge capital that's been generated over the last 10 years right here on the Math Brown Show. And you can get access to all of that right now for free. So, how do you get access to this? Well, head on over to mapbrown show.com and at the top you'll see community. Hit that link, sign up, it's absolutely free, and you'll be given instant access to Matt Brown AI and a community of over a hundred thousand subscribers. Yeah, it's I'm I couldn't agree with you more. I think in South Africa and in Africa more broadly, I think you know, diversity is is a very important uh journey that we've been on since the ending of part eight. And um, you know, I don't think we have we've we've done a lot of work. I mean, like the the transformation has been truly remarkable in such a short period of time, but many argue that we're nowhere near where we should be. You know, so we've been on a 20, let's say 25-year journey, 27, 27-year journey now, um, and we've got another, you know, 25 years to go till we ever get there. Uh, and it's quite an interesting thing because uh I've founded a company amongst that or within that environment where diversity and black economic empowerment and and all these uh things, they're not ideas, they're uh systems now that uh founder entrepreneurs within South Africa at least have to play within. And so I employ most of my uh workforce is black, uh uh, you know, and and I get amazing results out of them. Um and it's interesting for me to have this conversation with you personally because I'm curious to explore with you where does diversity and and the transformational objective uh related to diversity, where does it end? Does it ever end? Um and when how would we know when we have arrived at a place where it's like, okay, cool. We've now we're now living in a you know a workforce culture environment where there's equality and diversity in the workforce.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Oh my god, that is so so many layers of awesome in everything you just said. Um I think South Africa is such an interesting example of really what is this global phenomenon of anti-blackness in the world. And I think South Africa is like the epitome of that and what can what's possible with change. But you're right, I don't think you're done. And it's cool that you are leading the way to help change that because that at the end of the day, isn't that what we need? You know, is people who might have the power and the privilege to get an audience and be leading by example and then showing the results. And so it's like if he did it, so so can we do it, right? And this is amazing. I don't know if the benefits of diversity ever end because at least in my you know, 20 years, the the layers of diversity keep changing and and adding. I don't think we're ever done, right? It's like we it's like saying, Oh, I'm done developing as a leader. I'm a good leader, done. But if the ground below you is shifting, then how can you be stable and still be effective? And I think that's probably what we're seeing with so many leaders who are like amazing, you know, they did all the right things, they said all the right things, they were super effective at coming up with strategies, but the world around them changed. It's global, right? There's um constant um disruptors. The society in the United States, we've become much more diverse. I think this is like a global phenomenon, but it's very, very true in the United States that in you know by 2025 we'll be a majority minority country. Um but I think a lot of the leaders stay the same. And so now they're no longer effective. Um if you you've it sounds like you've done a great job with diversity on you know black-white differences, but that's you know, one element of diversity, you know, there's also like gender. Um you can think of the intersectionality. I don't know about I don't know who's on your team, but um black women might be treated very differently than black men. Um there's LGBTQ, IA plus and people's sexual orientation and identities, disability, personality, you know, neuro differences. There's I think they just continue to grow and to change. And diversity isn't like having I mean for I'm just saying, I'm speaking to the choirs. I know he knows this, but like if you have a whole team of black men, they're not diverse because they're black, right? They're diversity is the the composition of the people on the team. So you might you still need maybe you need to add some uh white men to the team, maybe some white women, maybe some um veterans or whatever it might be. Because what you're trying to achieve is of course, you know, I think social equality is important, but also you're trying to get different perspectives, and so people can challenge each other and um see the mistakes that others are making in their logic and you know, appeal to new target markets and all those great things.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

Yeah, it's interesting. Do you how much how much of a role does uh bias play within this whole conversation of diversity? Because like I've got I've got it I've got a personal story to share, and it's probably gonna it's probably gonna upset some people, but I don't give a shit. This is the map round show. Um so uh so I was approached, I'm not gonna name names here, but I was approached by an agency to uh be part of a campaign to um to raise awareness and the importance of being vaccinated. And I was selected from a group of influencers. So I have a podcast very well known, and uh it was it was it went to and from, turn from, and eventually it was fed back that no, it's come down to three, and then it was no definitely it's it's gonna be you, it's pretty much we're gonna like you know uh do the sponsorship deal, etc. And uh and then the whole deal fell through. So my producer phones me and he goes, and like you must understand it was done, it was we were gonna onboard the thing was gonna happen of data book. And I said to him, So what what what actually happened there? Now Mav knows me well enough to know that there's certain things you don't tell me, um and so fear for fear of reaction. And turns out that um I was declined uh at the last hurdle, I guess, because the government got involved, and I was declined to to work on the campaign, um, despite my media uh profile and the ability to influence the market because I was white. And that hurts, if I'm honest, you know, because for me it's it if you talk about diversity and you mean it in a way that's authentic. That's why I said where does it start and where does it stop? Because at some point you can over-index to the other side, and then suddenly you're actually now backpedaling or changing course to then take diversity in the other direction. Um it's like within the homogenous again. Yeah, exactly. And it's like so so it's frustrating for me because you know, I think we can all agree that diversity matters, but it's some somewhere along the lines you have these these examples like the one I just shared, where it feels to me that those uh diversity, you know, it's like some something's wrong with it.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Do you know the other the other folks, or was it just one person they chose?

SPEAKER_03 21:05

I I don't know the detail, but it was essentially a case of it when it comes out, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:11

So I wonder if you know what I've heard a lot is they have hired three white men, and then the optics look pretty bad when who you're you know, you're trying to influence a society that is not all white men. So maybe you need people who like we're more easily influenced by people who are similar to us. So if you are a white man, maybe you're less effective at changing attitudes around vaccination to a black a black woman, right? So maybe it's good to have diversity there. But if they're just choosing one person, then you can't have diversity, you're just a person.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

Yeah. Well, this is my thing. So uh yeah, I understand why they made that decision and and like cool, I get it. And I don't know who they chose, whatever, but but I guess my point is that it's it's like I would have done it for free.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Guess what, Matt Brown? You still can. You still have the power in the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Go get vaccinated, Stephanie Johnson and Matt Brown tell you. Go do it.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Go get vaccinated. Do it twice. Get a booster. It's not bad. It served me well. Um, I'm serious. You can still be you can still do it if you're you don't have the whole backing of the campaign, but I totally relate to you. And in fact, you know, if you read Inclusively, I very much try to not be angry when people tell those stories, but approach it with empathy because that's the most important skill. And I actually can understand exactly how you feel because I've been in the same situation. I interviewed for jobs, and people said, So the thing is young women, um women, especially younger women, which now I'm not young, but whatever, this is 20 years ago. Um don't do that well teaching our MBAs, business business schools in the United States. They're the um graduate degrees are called MBA, Masters in Business Administration. And the MBAs beat them alive because you know, the MBAs, they're like all of these, you know, uh assertive mid-career men. If you're at a very top school, you're getting like eight the very top mid-career uh men, which now MBAs are more gender balanced, but at the time, 20 years ago. And so I just don't think you're gonna be successful in this role. It's just the same thing, right? We're not gonna hire you because you're a woman. And it stinks. And I'm like, it's also illegal, by the way, but um in the United States. But at the time, I'm like, well, listen, I have a great track record of appealing to MBA students, regardless of gender. Look at my teaching rate. But no, women just don't do well here, and we don't want to hire you to set you up for failure. It's really in your best interest. It stinks, right? And it's like that's that's only one example. I think everyone has a story like that. I think it feels so bad because it's something out of your control and it's your identity, and it's not it's not considering whether you would have done the very best job. It's a decision that people are making based on bias, um, bias against your group. It sucks, right? And I think for the first time in in history, the majority group, which I don't think in in South Africa, I don't know if women are the majority group, but the group who tends to have the most um power and privilege are the ones getting that message. And it sucks just as much for them as it did for everyone else. But I also agree that people are like too bad. And I think that's I think that's the wrong approach. I think it's there's gonna be those instances, you know, people still give me those maybe they don't tell me anymore, but um of like women don't do well, or like I don't know if we want a woman, you know, we want someone with more executive presence or something. Um And so I've I have empathy for you for that experience because it does suck. And you probably I know you would have done a great job. Like I can't imagine who they got, who's gonna do a better job.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

Um, but it is I guess it doesn't make it M Twitter doesn't make it feel any better, but maybe it gives you empathy too for all the other folks who for the for the first time, probably more than well, actually, I wouldn't say it's for the first time, but I think this was quite an acute recent experience. So obviously you remember those ones rather than the ones from like three years ago. Um, but I mean we but it's interesting because now that it's happened again, I kind of it reminds me how much I see it everywhere and how you know my example is just a small micro speck on the whole radar of you know inequality and uh injustice in this space, you know. Um and it's interesting what you said. I mean, like if you think about the whole idea of of the role of a woman in a family, you know, how that's changed from like you must stay at home, look after the kids, cook, man goes home goes to work, comes home, must have dinner on the table, like that whole rubbish, old patriarchal idea, you know. Um, and and how if I look at my wife now, I'm like it's true equality at home, you know what I mean? And true partnership.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

That's great.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

Yeah, it's true, it's true, it's a true uh partnership. And and it's interesting that there's this dichotomy of friction that's happened, uh, in the sense of you know, she's now an equal, she actually works with me in the business. And unfortunately, uh on top of that, she's also got to be mom. And there's you know extra murals, there's got to take the kids to uh rugby, sorry, not rugby, but too young. You probably haven't heard of rugby too too often.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

I don't think no, I I lived in Edinburgh first last year in college. I saw lots of rugby.

SPEAKER_03 27:15

You did, yeah. Uh so I'm actually wearing a stormer shirt. It's uh heritage day today, of all things. Um but um but yeah, and so so and then now now it there's this thing. I I've I now have equality, but now I have to deal with the pressures of business and mom, and the and the friction is being forced to choose between both all the time.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Um I know, yeah. I feel for her. Tell your wife to call me too. I I can totally I have a mom too. I have a an eight-year-old and a nine-year-old. And we can say, my husband and I can say equality all we want, but whenever the kid is sick, do you know that the school calls? Yeah, they always call me, and the you know, other moms say, you know, oh, it's so sad that you have to work, it's not fun. And no one ever tells my husband how sad it is that he has to work. It's just he just works. That's just like normal. So you know, it's gonna take a while. And then I also have to say, like, there's lots of people who choose, men and women who choose not to work and raise the kids, and that's like totally valid too, right? Um they're all just choices, but it I feel for your wife because it's a lot of pressure, and then the you know, the kids need you, and I think they're still that like you want to give everything to your kids, and so um there's a question of like always for me anyway. Am I giving am I giving enough to everyone all the time?

SPEAKER_03 28:51

That's exactly what she says. And the answer is no, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:55

No, screw it, go to yoga.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Yeah, exactly. It's like you can never give enough. It's like, especially for moms, because I don't think men get it. Like, I think the we we kind of get understand because we're in it and we see it and that, but we don't fully, we don't, we don't we don't feel it like a mom feels it, you know. Um, and yeah, I I take the brunt of that because I don't get it. So she's trying to like undo like 40 years of like systems and environment and indoctrination into a certain way, you know. And so for her to try and undo all of that, it's a almost a fruitless exercise. Whereas if she if she if she you know had the bandwidth to shift the perspective on on what it now actually means. And she did that today, funnily enough. She she um she comes to me today and I was talking to you about moving to America, and we've been under so much pressure, we're putting ourselves under pressure to you know get a deal done, uh, exit the business, blah, blah, blah, and to get to America. And because it's been two years and COVID and closed consulates and no processing or stuff. Um, and there's been this like pressure. And so on top of that, then there's the the home life and the business life. So she came to me today and she's like, look, there's two things out in Epiphany today. One, when we're not moving to America for like two years. If it happens before, great. And then like the whole psyche changed. And the second thing she said to me was, I'm announcing to you today that I'm working from 5 a.m. to 12 p.m. and then I'm not working the rest of the day from Monday. And yeah, exactly right. So this is it, because she she was, and I don't I think there's a big difference between being assertive and being selfish. What she was doing was being assertive, she was taking back her her power, right, as mom, yeah and and putting very clear borders in play so that she can have both, so she can be equal in the business, but she can have her needs met as a mom, you know. Um and that's that's it's an interesting thing because it it's this dichotomy between like everything must be equal all the time, but then when you get there, it's like, well, but there's actually a cost to that.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

And I don't think yeah, that's like the you know, I make this distinction in Inclusively of like equal is not the goal. That's that's equality, right? Let's give everyone equal. You work from 5 a.m. to 12, she works from 5 a.m. to 12. Well, that doesn't make sense because depending on where your podcast guests are located, maybe 5 a.m. doesn't work for interviews. Maybe you have to do some at a different time, right? Instead, it's equity, it's giving people what they need to think to be successful. And maybe she can do her role on those hours, you can't. So giving everyone the same thing really misses the boat. But you know, we teach this all the time, right? And give everyone the same. That's good leadership. Treat people fairly, that means exactly the same. But you know, if you're a person with disabilities and you have um special hearing instruments for for your Zoom life or for your um podcasting, then do you give that to everyone? No, it doesn't make any sense. Why would you give it to everyone? They don't need it. Maybe someone else has a visual impairment and they need what what they need to be successful, right? It's gonna be different. So you actually actually nail it. I mean, get that's what she needs. And I think in the last year and a half, the whole idea of nine to five, it's like what were we thinking? Why did we ever do that? It doesn't make any sense. There's many different ways to approach work, and it doesn't have to be on that schedule.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

So that's actually a good point. So I was thinking about that. I actually was talking to someone the other day about nine to five. And I think there's a lot of doctrines out there that are dated and don't make sense in the modern world. So if you think about what you said, right? So nine to five, where did that come from? What system was that idea? Farming.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Farming is farming. It's like sun up and but no, actually, it doesn't even make any sense because the sun comes up much earlier than nine.

SPEAKER_03 33:09

Well, uh my my view, okay, my sense is is that it would come from manufacturing. So you needed everybody to work with their hands to assemble parts for a car, and you work from nine, in theory, nine till five. So everybody worked from nine till five because you had different teams assembling different elements on the production line of this machine called the manufacturing. And in the industrial age, everybody worked in manufacturing plants. We didn't have the internet, we didn't have entrepreneurship wasn't a thing. Uh, you know, it was uh the Spanish flu, you know, and working with in like very poor conditions, like terrible. Um and Netflix is so many documentaries about you know people who've kind of like you know built amazing businesses in in that sort of space. But it would it now, but like okay, fast forward 150, 200 years, we're now sitting with the internet, we're sitting with in if we're talking, I'm talking to you over in um Coraso, right? Um and it's video and it's not perfect, but geez, it's better than it was in the industrial age.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

Yeah, um, and so but yet we work nine to five. And the irony is that you know, with COVID, it's it was like think about another thing, you had to have an office. So if you were more than like 10 people, you had to work in an office and renovate. We did all that, and then COVID came, we renovated, spent a fortune in renovations, covet came 30 days later, we had to move out. So yeah, and since then we haven't gone back. So now I'm sitting with a new paradigm where um where people are working from home, they're not working in a manufacturing plant. So then the question becomes okay, uh, and look at the trends. I mean, if you think of uh the some of the stuff I've seen on on um on social media, like Microsoft or Nike gave the whole company off for mental health, you know, mental health week or stuff like that. Like where did that come from? That was born from this system today, a modern era system, 95k from a legacy system. Um, and uh, I think we we can't in the business world, we carry, even in the context of equality, we we can't, I mean another point I want to make was around like who worked in those manufacturing plants because men worked on cars, women worked on sewing machines, or they worked on deconstructing messages or typing uh you know telegrams, you know. So even then you had this men must do this and women must do that. Um and so even today, and I think all of those um paradigms have have traversed into this modern space, and to your point, it's changing much faster than it ever has before. Um and so the role of systems is really important to recognize in its influence in you know diversity and equality and things like that. Because if you think about it, I can only influence my as a leader, my direct team and business, okay, and maybe some people outside of it. But primarily my primary sphere of influence is with my team and my people. Now, the system that I'm in is far more influential, but I'm not in control of that. I'm a small part of the system. And I wanted to my question is what it what what in your opinion is the role of systems in influencing equality and and and what is its rel, you know, what is its relationship to our listeners? So if a listener is listening to us sitting in a system, whether they're unaware or aware, who knows, that they're sitting in the system, they want to make a difference, and you know, what what what do we need to know about that context?

SPEAKER_01 36:53

Yeah, I mean, I love everything you said, and I I think the system's everything. And the system was built at a time where equality wasn't part of the equation. It's kind of like built by men for men, and they go home and there's as you said at the start, there's dinner on the table, you know, it's brilliant. The kids um were taken care of. People didn't have as there weren't as many dual career couples, or you know, maybe um women were as long as it worked with having children and family and stuff. Um okay, that's outdated. But I will tell you like I have worked with companies and expressed this pre-COVID, right? You need flexible work hours. It's this is a simple way to create gender equality. People don't need to be there nine to five, you know, come on. And millennials, who cares? You can say women, but just half the society. Millennials are like soon will outnumber everyone else in the workforce, millennials and Gen Z. They don't want to work nine to five either, and they're just not gonna do it. They're not like an active scope, they're like, you know, I'll live on my friend's couch, okay. So you have to change. We can't change, we have uh secure data, you know, with FAA won't let us, like all these um restrictions and regulations. Okay, COVID, everyone's home within 48 hours.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

And they they figured it out, right? Like we here in in the US and they have their own special online systems because they have to be extra secure.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

You figure it out. Like it's not it's not rocket science, right? Like you could have always figured it out, you just didn't care enough to, but now you had to. And now here's the thing they want to go back to the old way, right? We want people to come back to the office because it's it feels comfortable, and you know, maybe the people in charge, that's the way they learned and grew up in their organization. I'm not just gonna go back to the old way because the old way was built on a system that created inequality. And so if equality is important, we need a new system. And this is our only opportunity to do it. And so it's really very intentional about the way we transition back to work to ensure that it works for everyone, it works for the vast majority of workers, not just you know, small percentage of workers. And we never could have done it before. No one would have ever listened, but now's the time to say it. And I think we're seeing this all over. You know, we have, I don't know if this is a global phenomenon, but um people are quitting their jobs and droves. Like, you want me to go back to the office? I'm not going back to the office. Like you're gonna have to make it work for people or they're not gonna come back to work.

SPEAKER_03 39:51

Yeah, that's another one, right? It's like Twitter allows people to work from home forever. Um, and and it's it's a great, you know, it's a and I think there were a few companies that jumped on that uh on that bandwagon. Um, do you know about that? Or have you heard about that CEO?

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Um everyone wants that.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

I don't know. Um there's a CEO in the States, he pays everyone.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

Even if everyone wants to work from home forever.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

I don't know. Um sorry I keep talking over you. No, no, no, it's it's it's not you, it's the delay. It's the delay. Like I said, it's a lot better than the industrial age manufacturing stuff, but it's still not perfect. Um, but um but uh yeah, I don't think people but this is my thing. I think it's about choice. You know, it's like I would like the choice to go to the office if I I've had a real rough two days of kids being at home from school, you know, on school holidays, you know. So it's like I just want to get out. And so where do I go? And to have the office and the choice and the freedom to go and do that would be would be great. Um, another great example I've I've seen recently, I forget the guy's name, but he's a CEO of a of a US company. He employs like, you know, 100 people, 250 people, something like that. Uh but he he he made the news when he paid everyone the same salary. So he pays everybody in the company, I think it's $70,000 a year, whether you are an executive or whether you're an entry-level person, you everybody earns the same. And people were like, No, no, no, you can't do that. Like, you know, that's ridiculous, blah, blah, blah. It's gonna people won't be motivated. How are you gonna motivate your senior staff when the intern's getting the same amount of money and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And uh, and so he was like, Well, this is how this is what I want to do. And and even he earns the same amount of money. Um, and uh, the story goes in the in the media clip is that um the performance of the workforce actually increased.

SPEAKER_05 41:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 41:56

It was amazing, right? Because um you write about that in your book, where you you make the uh point around uh continuous sustained effort towards helping diverse teams feeling engaged, empowered, accepted, and valued. And that that sentiment is what uh this chap has um has done, I would say, in his book. Uh sorry, with in his business rather, what you've done in your book. Um and I'd love to What do you think of that?

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Would you do that for your own company?

SPEAKER_03 42:23

No, I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

Why not? You solve the effect is one example, right? Anecdote.

SPEAKER_03 42:30

What is this guy? I'm gonna try and find him. Um uh so the reason why I say no in my current point of view um is that uh sorry he's full snuff trying to find this guy, full snuff. You see. Um, so yeah, my um my sentiment is that there's value that is created at different levels within a business. So if you have a if you have a uh you're working towards a vision or a goal, uh you need to have structures in place in order to reach that that goal, otherwise you won't get there. So as a startup, you have a flat structure. Um, and so I would say it makes more sense for that principle to apply in a startup where you don't have uh uh levels of hierarchy, you own and you have a very flat structure. So when you're a startup, you have, you know, like I'll be doing sales, marketing, HR finance, and then I have Alexis who's doing you know account management, financial modeling, forecast, and then I have this designer who is then not up, I'm paying her as a designer, but she's actually doing website development, multimedia editing, and copywriting. So so and you understand, so you you you're creating more equal amounts of value at that stage of company because you're all doing more four things or five things. So it's okay, everybody in theory could earn the same amount of money. So it makes more sense there, but as you go from startup to you know growth to mature and then expansion uh you have more hierarchy of levels and so the the if you go in in the let in the more mature context you have a CEO who's who's actually paid to make uh who's paid the amount of money he's paid to to make like Tim Cook is not paid to make a thousand decisions he's paid to make one or two decisions that are very good every day and he has a team underneath him to then make the other hundred and then the other you know eight hundred and so on so that's so that collectively the structures can work systemically towards the achievement of the goal. Now in that in that sphere it it doesn't make sense because the value of the individual take the titles away the value of the resources and the remuneration of those resources it doesn't make sense for someone in who's protesting vendor sheets or invoices to be paid the same so you know but I but I would like I said it it may it works for for this guy. Here you go the boss you put everyone on 70,000 uh 2015 let me put this up on the screen I'll read it to you so this is for everybody watching live so here you go BBC the boss you put everyone in 70k so in 2015 the boss of a card payments company in Seattle introduced a $70,000 minimum salary for all his 120 staff and personally took a pay cut of $1 million. Five years later he is still on the minimum salary and says the gamble is paid off his name his name's Dan Price uh lives in the Cascade Mountains. But you know it's it's interesting because I I guess what it indicates and I'd love to get your view is that you know we don't know what we don't know. And there's there's and that's the one thing about love about podcasting it's like I don't know like don't come to me for advice dude like I don't have any to give uh but uh but I mean uh but what is your view on that now that you've heard the story what does it indicate for you about what we don't know about equality in the workplace I know I I'm gonna go with your answer because I thought very good.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Um I mean my first thought was it doesn't work because of market demand. You know there's like if if you're hiring a um RD computer engineer or something maybe they can work for you for 70,000 or they can go work at any other company for 150,000 why would they work for you right? So you have to pay people with the market demands. But then I when I had that brilliant answer of I started thinking about it and I'm like isn't that just aren't the market demands just another source of inequality like we do pay more for certain jobs and then those jobs often keep out diversity right like and it's there's these huge economic studies at least in the US that show if you have a field you know maybe it's engineering as more women and they I think the study only looked at women enter that field the salary actually declines because women are valued less right and um if you use pay history and maybe their last job they got paid less is not you pay them less and so overall the um that salary starts to decline. So maybe the market pay demands is just another source of inequality. But I mean I'm I'm with you I think you don't know what you don't know. I like to believe in pay for performance so if you are able to demonstrate the value that you added you should be compensated for that. And maybe that's more of a bonus structure than a just like your salary because I think I think like my so I'm a tenured professor, right? You work really hard you maybe you you have a certain salary, you get tenure, you can never be fired. And as far as I know they can't it'd be really weird for them to cut your salary and say we've decided you're not actually producing as much as you used to so in some ways salary is kind of like you get to the salary by doing a good job but you don't have to do that good of job to maintain it. And so there's a lot of people with like inflated salaries that maybe I don't know I don't know it's an interesting question. I don't have the answer but I love the I feel like I want to do some experiments or do some like computer models of like what would happen. I think at the end it would all collapse and like well all businesses would fail.

SPEAKER_03 48:36

But to your point I mean I've just had a a recent experience where I I think the compensation model is is is I think could use an update. I wouldn't say that it's broken because it it does work but I don't think it works well enough. Um and the reason why I say that is because I've hired in the last six months a lot of senior people for lots of money and um I've had to let a few of them go because they let's just say weren't worth the money that they were asking for. So the the value exchange wasn't sustainable and as a small business you have to be kind of ruthless with with um you know your your economics of your business. So like how do you know that so now if everybody was earning imagine this so what if everybody was not earning $70,000 so $70,000 for me is still quite a good salary. It's on the high end $100,000 you're very comfortable I would suggest depending on where you live but if you were let's just say on you know $36,000 right um potentially a year but you were remunerated on performance for the difference like that makes more sense then to say okay so you're all the same now you will be rewarded on the delivery of this vision for the company. So here's your mandate and you guys figure it out we're not going to say how to do it. We'll tell you what to do it what you need to do it why you need to do it. And you guys figure out the how and the other thing to say is it would make sense to even have that you know that that then broken up into tribes so not departments but tribes. So agile tribes that go out and solve specific problems that the business needs um and then get rewarded based on outcomes um not on effort. Does it make sense? Something like that.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Yeah no I like it I think it seems it doesn't seem worse than what we currently have. I don't know if it would end up having bias baked in because you know some of those performance outcomes are subjective it's not sales you know it's like um I think that was a really creative idea and maybe I react differently depending on who delivered the idea but I don't think it's worse than what we have um I think they think though also of like restaurant in in the states and I know this isn't true everywhere but um if you work in a restaurant as a wave staff or server teacher host as a server post um you get paid less than minimum wage like four dollars an hour and then you get the rest in tips. And I think if you earn less than tips then would be minimum wage they have to make it up but then the problem is when so much of your livelihood is based on that tipping I think we see negative outcomes for people because what are you willing to do and I think of like in a business not in a customer service role but to get that performance and like would it create more unethical behavior? Like are you going to steal clients from your colleagues? And tipping, you know one of the things I studied is in sexual harassment and sexual harassment is horrible in um for servers and for weight staff. Why? Because they can't really speak up I mean they can and they should but they're scared to speak up because they need the tips right um and so the people who are harassing them are usually customers and they want they still want the tip because they need to pay the rent and otherwise they get $4 an hour.

SPEAKER_03 52:14

So I'm just gonna there's always you know there's always complications for all these things but we definitely could use more merit-based pay I'm sure yeah we absolutely could um could I maybe touch on a little bit more of your research because I'd be fascinated to know what people are actually doing practically so maybe just to get it more in from from like the theoretical stuff to to kind of like okay I would like to make a difference I'm an individual wherever I might be in the world um and um you know what are some you know references or great practical real world examples you can point to that says right that's a great reference go and learn about how these this company or this individual is is kind of doing diversity uh in the right way what would you point to you know I I think re-inclusify obviously um but I think that I'm sure I could give references and there's you know lots of references in the book but I really like to think of like what's a practical strategy and if you're an individual I think it's trying to create connection with people who are different from you is something that you can do.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

If it's you know I I give this advice a lot but if you have a trade association or a network there's in my in my trade association we always have like the women's meeting and the um Hispanic Latino um group and black and Asian and LGBTQ so they all are separate. So I would say go to your group and go to another group that you're not a part of just to increase your network and try to form a connection with people who are maybe different from you. Because at the end of the day it's really hard we're all biased right but it's really hard to be biased against someone you have a close personal connection with and it starts to change the connections you have in your brain about a certain group like I don't know anyone who's this get to know someone who's that and it changes the way you view that group. If you're a leader I think that one of the biggest things that we can do is try to mentor and sponsor people who are different. And it does the same thing as an individual like getting to know them keeps form a personal connection it changes your view on that group and we mentor people who look just like us like same race same gender even same personality and if you think of who holds a lot of organizational power what does that mean for who gets mentored so take the opposite like I'm gonna mentor someone who's different from me and studies show that when you do that it actually improves that person's chance of success like they're more likely to get promoted they get better pay um they're more likely to stay with the company but the brilliant thing is the same things happen for the mentor. So if I as a you know senior female I'm a Mexican female go reach out and mentor a you know a young black um more junior colleague I'm gonna learn from them and I'm gonna benefit it's gonna make me more effective in my role um and he's gonna benefit in the win win right um if we all just did that just like put it on your calendar do the one thing I think it would change everything.

SPEAKER_03 55:43

Yeah I had a similar thought uh earlier this week I was like you know because I think we're when you're suffering right so like I was I was talking to uh a phone uh a prospect and just hit it off got chatting you know and she she said to me isn't it an interesting time to be alive and I was like yeah it's it is interesting and I have had a really rough like few months uh my mom passed away and it just like a few things happened at once and I was like just and then I then on top of all of that came off caffeine by the way caffeine is a real thing like when you come off that oh my word um yeah proper proper brain fog and withdrawals like really like really really bad anyway so just going through a lot and and then there's COVID and then there's uncertainty and you know South African riots and blah blah blah and whatever you and there's lots to the then with my point being is that the the neg the what's bad about your life is just as much available as what's good about your life and you you have to choose every day to uh to to focus on what you're grateful for and I'm not trying to be cliche but I'm genuinely saying like fuck being grateful just focus on the things that are right and and but even then it's it's nice because you hear I think there's so much bad motivation out on the internet now and people always have an opinion and a lot of it's like you know really um and uh and one of the one of the small things I've learned talking about practical uh stuff is that when it if if you when you are suffering and you're really feeling down like do something for someone just do it like it doesn't need to be big just do like phone your dad phone your mom like when my mom passed away like I'll never even now it hurts because like I can I can't speak to her ever again and life's so short and if you if you can do something for someone um like go to a networking event and meet someone and introduce yourself and do whatever it is in your own way you it it the world is no longer about you and you stop suffering.

SPEAKER_01 57:58

It's a funny thing I've learned that have you learned something similar yeah absolutely I love that I mean I think that's a great lesson for today or take home for people because it would just make the world a better place and it's it's contagious right when someone does something kind for you you want to do something kind for someone else and it catches on and couldn't we all use a little more kindness right now.

SPEAKER_03 58:26

Yeah absolutely um Stephanie let's uh wrap this up uh why do you do what you do? What gets you out of bed in the morning? I think it's the possibility uh that things can change that um to me leadership is everything um you know we've seen that through this pandemic that you know leadership really matters if you look at how different countries have fared in the COVID crisis um and I think we can develop better leaders and my lifelong aspiration is to improve the world by improving uh and supporting its leaders awesome what a cool mission uh Stephanie thank you so much for your time today guys thanks for everybody watching online and catching this podcast uh wherever you're watching it uh the book is called Inclusify the power of uniqueness and belonging to build innovative teams hey there guys at smerocketfuel.com you can access new markets and your ideal customers within seconds from a globally compliant data engine built specifically to help your business grow faster than ever before and the best part it's free yes that's right it is free head on over to smerocketfuel.com and sign up for free today so that you can start accelerating your business growth faster than ever before wherever you are with SMERocketfuel.com ever wanted to become a best selling author? Well I'm in the influence business and I work with business owners and CEOs and business leaders to help them scale their influence and we do this as a team by helping you to become a bestselling author sought after speaker and industry influencer in only 30 days my team and I have developed a system that delivers a bestselling book and a launch campaign 300% faster and a 50% less cost than anyone else in North America. This system is incredibly efficient one of my clients haiku went from a 2% share of voice globally to an 11% share of voice globally in only seven days. If you'd like more information head on over to showworksmedia.com for more that is showworkswithinx.com Ever wanted to become a best selling author? Well I'm in the influence business and I work with business owners and CEOs and business leaders to help them scale their influence and we do this as a team by helping you to become a bestselling author sought after speaker and industry influencer in only 30 days my team and I have developed a system that delivers a bestselling book and a launch campaign 300% faster and a 50% less cost than anyone else in North America. This system is incredibly efficient one of my clients haiku went from a 2% share of voice globally to an 11% share of voice globally in only seven days. If you'd like more information head on over to showworksmedia.com for more that is showworkswithinx.com