Spring Lawn Pests + Lawn Species PART TWO

In part two of this two-part episode, Zane Raudenbush, turf and herbicide specialist within the Davey Institute, shares spring pests to look out for in lawns, as well as general spring lawn seeding practices. 

In this episode we cover:  

• Spring pests & diseases in the lawn (:40)
  • Weedy turf grass (:54)
  • Warm season pests (1:51)
  • Grubs (2:55)
  • Snow mold (4:00)
  • Red thread (5:30)
• How to combat spring pests & diseases (6:51)
  •  Red thread (8:06)
  • Weedy species (9:07)
• Lawn care trends over the years (14:20)
• Different lawn species (18:22)
  • Perennial ryegrass (19:58)
  • Tall fescue (20:45) 
• When to apply tall fescue (23:45)
• Establishing a lawn with sod (25:55)
• Sharp blades to cut grass (28:09)
• Lawn safety (29:19)

To find your local Davey office, check out our find a local office page to search by zip code.

Listen to part one of this two-part episode, Help Your Lawn Thrive this Spring PART ONE.

To learn more about identifying the species in your lawn, read our blog, Grass Identification: What Type of Grass Do I Have?

Connect with Davey Tree on social media:
Twitter: @DaveyTree
Facebook: @DaveyTree
Instagram: @daveytree
YouTube: The Davey Tree Expert Company
LinkedIn: The Davey Tree Expert Company 

Connect with Doug Oster at www.dougoster.com. 

Have topics you'd like us to cover on the podcast? Email us at podcasts@davey.com. We want to hear from you!

Transcript

[music]

Doug Oster: Welcome to the Davey Tree Expert Company's podcast, Talking Trees. I'm your host, Doug Oster. Each week, our expert arborists share advice on seasonal tree care, how to make your trees thrive, arborists' favorite trees, and much, much more. Tune in every Thursday to learn more because here at the Talking Trees podcast, we know trees are the answer.

Welcome to Part 2 of my talk with Zane Raudenbush. He is the turfgrass and herbicide specialist for the Davey Tree Expert Company. Last week, we talked about seeding and soil tests and all sorts of stuff about keeping our lawns going strong. Today, Zane, I wanted to talk and start talking about pests. Early in the season here, what's the first thing that we need to be worried about or that you might be seeing in your Ohio lawn?

Zane Raudenbush: This is definitely for me. This time of year is the time that our lab starts to receive a lot of samples of weedy turfgrass species in the lawn. When you think of pests, you're thinking about diseases, insects, and weeds. The big thing that we begin to see at Davey Tree in our diagnostic lab is weedy turfgrass species. These are typically going to be, when you're thinking about your home lawn, these are going to be patches of grass that you see greening up earlier than other plants in the lawn. They might even be growing earlier than other plants in the lawn. Customers are going, "What is that?"

We start to see a lot of those samples come in. Those are often going to be things like annual bluegrass or rough-stalk bluegrass. These are grasses that are perennial. They'll live in the lawn, but they have poor heat tolerance, and they really green up early in the spring. People begin to notice them when they say, "What are these patches?"

Then the other thing, too, is we live in an area, Doug, where we can have what we call both cool-season and warm-season grasses. Cool-season grasses, things like ryegrass, bluegrass, fescues, these are our typical desirable species. Every once in a while, we start to get some warm-season species, things like common bermuda, zoysia grass, nimblewill. These are species that, in the winter months, are going to go completely straw-like in color.

Some people, maybe you're a new homeowner, moved into a property, and your yard looked great in the summer, and now it's in the spring, you're going, "What is this huge patch of straw-like turf?" Often, that is a warm-season species. At Davey, our clients, we have a in-house diagnostic lab. Our sales representatives are able to go out, collect the sample from the lawn, submit it to the lab. We will ID what species it is. A lot of times, we get samples coming in the spring where people are like, "What is going on here?" All it is, is it's a different turfgrass species, a weedy species typically growing in the lawn. That's one thing I begin to see.

Then we get a lot of questions about grubs. For whatever reason, this time of year, I think people, grub is sometimes a catch-all term, where if there's any damage to the turf, it must be grubs that caused it. For the listeners out there, this time of year, grubs are deeper in the soil profile, and they're not feeding a whole lot. They're quite large this time of year. They're preparing to feed a little bit more. Then they're going to pupate and emerge as adults.

A lot of that voracious feeding occurs in the fall. We see that more in August, September, October. Then this time of year as well, because we have so much rainfall, you really don't see any kind of damage from grubs. If there's issues this time of year, Doug, typically it has more to do with some kind of shade issue, traffic problem, compaction. Typically, from an insect pest issue, not really many insect pests of home lawns that are a problem in the spring. Really, it's going to be weeds.

Then, at least in our area, we had more snow cover this year, Doug, than we have had in years past. Some lawns really got hit hard with the disease snow mold. Snow mold is a disease that really thrives under snow cover, particularly when you get snow cover over unfrozen ground. That snow acts as a blanket. Snow mold is a disease that typically infects the foliage of the turf, but under really nasty conditions. It can get down into the crown of the plant.

For the listeners, the crown of the plant is that area that's situated right at the soil surface. That is the lifeblood of the plant. If you kill the crown, you've just mostly, for the most part, killed that plant. There are lots of times where we can lose the foliage, diseases, insects, things can kill the foliage, but if the crown is alive, those plants will return. Some listeners maybe experienced a couple of years ago, and we had the fall armyworm issue. They fed a lot on the foliage, but they didn't feed on the crowns, and that's why a lot of those plants survived.

If you have snow mold issues, what you'll see this time of year is it look like sunken spots of turf where the leaves are all necrotic and straw-like, but rest assured, most of that will come back. If you experience that, go out there and just rake that debris off with just a leaf rake. You don't have to get crazy, but just get that dead debris out of there, and that will stimulate some recovery.

You might be seeing the remnants of snow mold. Then we're going to transition, Doug, into-- some of your listeners maybe have had experiences with the disease red thread. Red thread is, probably for most of your listeners, they would be capable of ID'ing this in the field if they have it. It's a disease that produces pink mycelium. If they're out there in the morning hours in your lawn walking around, you'll see this pink cottony mycelium. Then it produces some unique pink structures as well. We call them "sclerotia" that you can find in the turf.

It's actually one that you can see with your naked eye. Some of our diseases, you need a microscope like I have behind me to actually identify what it is, but red thread produces structures you can see. That's one that I typically see in our area. It can be pretty aggressive in the month of May. It's one of our earlier, earlier diseases.

Doug: You'll see it on your shoes, too. Right?

Zane: You might be thinking of rust.

Doug: Oh, okay. It's not the red thread that I see when you're walking through there. That's a rust.

Zane: Yes. If you're getting that orange color on your shoes, that's a rust disease. That's definitely something that you see in August, September in our area. Red thread is typically not going to leave anything on your shoes, but you will see the pink mycelium and the pink sclerotia in the turf.

Doug: Let's talk about some of the solutions for the things you're talking about there. Let's go with red thread. What do I do if I see I have red thread? What do I do? You explained with the snow mold. In the case of the snow mold, would I fertilize, too, to give it a little jump start there?

Zane: Definitely. Yes. If you have a bunch of injury, fertilizing is going to help promote growth and get it to recover. That's something I always try to, when I'm doing my trainings, try to remind people. If you have damage to turf, what is the solution? How do we fix that? You fix that through growth. That's how these plants recover. They put on new leaves.

If you have a lot of damage, usually, we're trying to try to stimulate growth to get the plants to recover, so you're spot on. If you have a bunch of snow mold damage and you went out there and raked it up, if you don't typically fertilize, I would recommend fertilizing because that's going to help promote the growth. If you don't fertilize and these plants go really slowly, and they don't fill the voids in the canopy, you can probably guess who will decide to come in and fill those voids in the canopy. That'll be weeds. That's what they do. Yes. You're spot on, Doug, if you have the injury to fertilize.

For red thread, you have a few options. One, there are some species that get it worse than others, things like fine fescue, ryegrass. They're really susceptible to red thread. You may consider changing the species. That's the hard road. That's a more expensive process. We also see that red thread is associated with nitrogen-deficient turf. You might find that if you're someone who traditionally has not done a whole lot of fertilizing or doesn't fertilize at all, and you think, "Yes. I know that I've had red thread really bad," a couple timely applications of fertilizer, particularly one here in the spring, can help.

Then there are also, if you're someone that has really had a bad experience with red thread disease and it's really devastating to your yard, you might consider putting out a preventative fungicide application. You can apply. It's a disease that's easily controlled with fungicides. Probably two fungicide applications will keep you clean for the entire year.

Doug: How about some of these weedy species? In my lawn, I like to refer to that as a quilted lawn with the-- As long as it's green, it works for me, but of course, that doesn't work for everybody.

Zane: Yes. I was worried you might go here, Doug, because there's no easy button for some of these answers. The first thing is going to be, well, what is the weed that we're dealing with? It's such an important question because there are different management practices. For every one of those weeds that I listed; nimblewill, bentgrass, roughstalk bluegrass, annual bluegrass, they each have a little bit different management.

Your options as a homeowner. First one is to do nothing. One thing about some of these species is that we get upticks in the spring because people know that they're there. They green up at different rates. They grow at different rates in the spring. Fast forward another month, and everything is greened up, and everything is growing. A lot of people don't even know that ignorance is bliss. It is not a problem to them anymore. It's really only this transition out of dormancy into full-blown growth that you notice that those plants are even there. You could just say, "You know what? I'll deal with a little bit of poor aesthetics in the spring. Fast forward a month, and this isn't a problem."

Doug: I like that one right there. That's my solution right there. [chuckles]

Zane: Yes. Again, you could pour a lot of money into trying to fix it, and you might find that-- I mean, these are not easy answers. I consider, Doug, these perennial weedy grasses in a lawn to be high order. These are things for even true professionals can struggle to get good control. You could do nothing. If it's really bad, and you've just got a bunch of different weedy species in the lawn, it might be time to consider a renovation.

We're just going to hit the reset button. I'm tired. I don't want to continue to chase my tail of doing different things. We'll establish a whole new lawn, and I would wait to do that in the summer, do some research, put a plan together, find a contractor if you want to pay someone to do it, but get your ducks in a row that, "You know what? We're just going to hit the reset button." You could either kill the lawn, sod the lawn. That's one option.

Then, for some of these, it's usually a two-prong approach. Let's just say that you do have something like roughstalk bluegrass or poa trivialis in your lawn. That is one that produces stolons, Doug, so it creeps along the surface. For your listeners, stolons are above-ground lateral stems. They help these plants to spread across the surface. It's what gives them that really distinctive patch-like growth.

I generally see that that plant loves when people mow their yard a little too short. If they have a irrigation system, they run it a little too frequently. In terms of controlling this plant, it's a two-prong approach. We're going to change some cultural practices. We're going to ask them to probably raise the mowing height, reduce the water. Then there are some selective herbicides that we can use, products that we can apply to the turf that will only injure the roughstock bluegrass and won't injure the desirable species. It's definitely a two-year program, Doug, to eradicate the lawn of those pests.

Doug: Is it hard to get people to raise that cutting length?

Zane: Yes. Yes. It is. People want that golf course, sports field look. They want that tight, manicured look. What some of those people don't always appreciate is, one, those are often different species, particularly in the golf world that we're dealing with species that are really well adapted to low mowing heights. In the sports field world, they are using Kentucky bluegrass, but these are varieties that have been selected to be maintained at low mowing heights. They were sodded in some sports fields. Some of these sports fields, Doug, get sodded every other year or a couple times in one season. Yes. Biggest thing I see in most home lawns is people that just mow too short.

Doug: How tall should it be?

Zane: I like to see it, for bluegrass, up there between two and a half to three inches. For the fescue species, as close to three inches or above as you can get. Again, the credit card is a great little feeler gauge. Your credit card is about three and a quarter inches long. Just set that down into the turf, and you should see most of that credit card after you mow is sitting down in the turf. If half of it is sticking out, you are definitely mowing too short. You will, over time, just be promoting these type of weedy grass species that are really well adapted to be mowed low. They're loving life in that scenario.

Doug: Let's talk a little bit about your job and about the culture of lawns in general. Has it changed over the last 20 years, how people feel about their lawns, or is it the same as it always has been, where every homeowner is a little bit different? When it's somebody like me, as long as it's green, that's all I care about. Nobody sees it. It's mostly in the shade. It's not a big deal. The culture in other neighborhoods where you see that lawn every day, and it's important that there's no weeds in there, it's just a completely different style than what I'm doing.

Zane: You just hit on a really key piece of what I hit on a lot of our trainings is we can't do what I call cookie-cutter lawn care, where you're treating every property exactly the same because how somebody feels about their lawn is subjective. It's important to them. For you, you're someone that it sounds like, "I just want it to be green. I want the cover. I want it to be usable, but I don't want to pour a bunch of inputs into it." Right?

Doug: Right.

Zane: That's a conversation at what I call the point of sale, trying to understand what does the customer want. That's really important. Everything starts with what is your expectation? If I'm talking to Doug and he says, "I want this place to look like Augusta National," that's a different animal. There are people like that. Right?

Doug: Sure.

Zane: A lot of places are set up to do what I call "cookie-cutter lawn care" very well. They treat every property the exact same way. We certainly recognize every property is different and every customer is different. We're just trying to understand what does the customer want and what are we starting with and what resources is it going to take to get them what they want. What I see changing in the industry is just that we are trying to work more towards site-specific management and getting away from the days of we're going to mix up 500 gallons in this truck and every lawn is getting the exact same thing.

Doug: I equate it to gardens. Your garden is for you, and you grow it the way you want to. I think the same with lawns because lawns, there is a subculture now that I see a lot of in the gardening world, like, "No more lawns. We want wildflowers." This and that. Well, that's fine if that's what you want, but having a lawn, if you love your lawn, there's nothing wrong with that either.

Zane: [chuckles] No. Not at all. I get a little disappointed to see the flak that lawns get. People just do not appreciate all the benefits they're getting of a lawn. When you think about the establishment, the holding of soil, the prevention of erosion, the reduction in stormwater. Grasses are incredible. When it rains, they slow the movement of that water down. That actually gets into the soil. Then, when you think about-- Now I'm going to digress here a little bit, but we want our young people to be outside enjoying nature, and the lawn is just such a usable space.

If you say, "Well, let's put something else in there." If you want people to be outside, a lawn is really, when you think about being outside, usually, unless you're in a nature trail, walking in the woods, a lawn really facilitates people getting outside, enjoying the outdoors. I do think there is definitely a place where we have huge swords of open turf that transitioning some of that to pollinator habitat makes sense. To just say that lawns are bad is a gross oversight of all the benefits that they do. Let's face it. For most people, not everybody gardens, Doug. Right?

Doug: Right.

Zane: Most people have a lawn. It's probably the last piece of agriculture that people are really in touch with. I'm a big proponent of people can get a lot of benefits from a lawn. You have the health benefits of mowing it and taking care of it, but then you have the internal benefits of having it look good. All the people that send me pictures, their lawn's all striped up, they get so proud of it, they get a lot of enjoyment.

Doug: I want to pick your brain a little bit about species. Last week, we talked about seeding and seeding early, but I just wonder about the different species. You've schooled me on this before, but I'd like to talk about it again. Just depending on the site, what you prefer to plant and what are some good things that we should think about when we're planning to reseed, overseed, or like you said, do a reset?

Zane: Yes. I'm a big fan of what I call "right plant, right place." Just similar to your gardening, just similar to planting landscape beds, you're going to look at that site and go, "What kind of soils do I have? How much direct sunlight am I going to get?" You're going to make a decision about, "Hey, is this plant going to do well"? It's the same thing in turf.

The questions we're asking from a turfgrass perspective, though, are similar. How much sunlight is it going to get? Is it irrigated or non-irrigated? The big thing that's different about turf, how much traffic is it going to get? That's a big distinction. Are people going to use this space? Is it going to receive a lot of traffic? Those are three things that I'm starting with. Is it irrigated or non-irrigated? How much direct sunlight do I have? Is it going to be traffic? Then I'm always looking at the soil. I like to know what kind of soil do I have to work with here. Is it garbage, or do I actually have some decent topsoil?

For most of the listeners out there, the four species that you're going to have options to choose are going to be Kentucky bluegrass, tall fescue, fine fescue, and perennial ryegrass. Let's just say it's right now, Doug, and you have some maybe dog urine spots in your yard. It's springtime. The dog's been out there all winter doing its business. You got some dead spots. That's a great place to use a species like perennial ryegrass. Perennial ryegrass is a really fast establisher. It can germinate even at these lower soil temperatures.

Any kind of small patchwork that's in relatively full sun to lightly shaded areas, a perennial ryegrass is really good for filling in those small spots. The issue with perennial ryegrass is it's susceptible to a lot of diseases, and it doesn't do well in the shade. I'm not a big fan of planting an entire lawn of perennial ryegrass, but we're just doing little patchwork. It's good.

Then the next one is tall fescue. This has really been, for me, I think-- not I think. I know now. This is a grass that really does well in our area, especially when it's non-irrigated. Tall fescue does really well in the full sun to moderate shade, and it produces an extensive root system.

When you get into those dog days of summer, this is a species that still has good color, pretty good density. The one issue is it is susceptible to the foliar disease brown patch and leaf spot, but those are generally aesthetic. They don't kill the turf. I've been using and establishing a lot more tall fescue in areas that aren't irrigated, and it has pretty good track.

Doug: If you had a lawn that had the right place for this, you would do all tall fescue. Is that right?

Zane: That's right. That's right.

Doug: I guess I'm under the misconception that every seed that you buy is some kind of mix. I didn't know that you could-- if you had the right spot, that you would put the grass that works perfect for that spot. That's something you would do.

Zane: Yes, but you are right. Let's just say one of your listeners is a typical consumer, goes to the big box store to buy seed. Everything there is going to be a mix. For the listeners, a mix is something that contains multiple species. Then there's also what we call "blend," where it is multiple varieties of the same species. Let's say your yard, Doug, we might look at it and go, "Hey, this would be great." This tall fescue is the plant of choice because Doug doesn't irrigate it. It's low input. He doesn't want to put as many inputs, but he wants that color.

We would use a blend of tall fescue. We would probably select three or four of what we call "elite varieties" and plant them in your yard. They'd all be tall fescue, but they would have different genetic background. If one is susceptible to a leaf spot, hopefully, they all are not. To your point, when one of your consumers goes to a big box store and looks at those bags of seed, they are going to be mixes. They're going to be usually 20% to 40% ryegrass, because that establishes quickly. When people plant it, they want it to grow. It'll generally be 20% bluegrass and generally 20% to 30% some type of fine fescue.

People are hedging their bet that one of those will establish, but yes, I'm a much better fan of if there's one species that makes sense, that's what I'm going to plant. Kentucky bluegrass is that one species that everybody wants because it is just an awesome texture, great traffic tolerance. Doug, it's tough to establish from seed. It's a longer process because it's going to take anywhere from 10 to 21 days to germinate depending on when you plant it. It's just slow to establish.

Doug: If you were to establish along with that, what would be the ideal time of the year to plant that seed?

Zane: First question I'd say is can you irrigate it, or is it going to be non-irrigated? If you have the ability to apply some water, even if it's just from a sprinkler connected to a garden hose. Ideal timing for me is going to be late August. If you're someone that doesn't have the ability to irrigate at all, you're just totally reliant on Mother Nature. I'm going to push that to be more of the mid-September timeframe just to get us out of that.

You can still have a lot of heat in August. Yes. Ideally, it would be mid to late August if you can apply a little bit of water. If you can't water at all, that's where I'd be looking more to the mid-September, and I'd take advantage of potentially some type of blanket or growth cover, potentially straw if you can find high-quality straw, so on and so forth.

Doug: Is Kentucky bluegrass then what they make sod out of?

Zane: That's right. Yes. Most lawns, if you go to a lawn and it's all Kentucky bluegrass, I would say 90% of the time that lawn has been sodded. The sod industry is really, really good at growing Kentucky bluegrass, planting Kentucky bluegrass. That's their thing. That's how most of this Kentucky bluegrass lawns are established. They're established from sod.

If you're a homeowner and you're over at your friend's house and you're like, "Man, this lawn looks awesome." "Hey, Doug. What is that?" You go, "Oh, it's Kentucky bluegrass." Ask the question, "Was it sodded or seeded?" You're going to find almost every time it was sodded. What we fight, or I fight sometimes, is people go, "Hey, I want that Kentucky bluegrass lawn, but I don't want to pay what it takes to sod it." That's where we're going-- it's a tough conversation because I have to explain to people that it's pretty risky to try to seed a lawn to 100% Kentucky bluegrass.

Doug: Is it hard to establish a lawn from sod, or is it easier to do it from sod? Are those questions not really? [chuckles] I'm just thinking. To me, I guess from a homeowner's standpoint, it seems like, man, if I could afford sod, I would put that sod down and that'd be it. I wouldn't have to worry. That's how I'm thinking of it. That's why the question came up like that.

Zane: Yes. I would say in general, yes, sod is easier to establish. Let me throw a couple caveats out here, though, if your listeners are thinking that sod is the thing. One, you can't just lay sod over junk soils. If the soil is really poor, here's your one chance to amend it, to change the soil composition, amend it, and then lay your sod down.

Don't be that person that just says, "My yard is junk now. I'm going to rip it up and sod it." You didn't actually fix the issue, which could have been that the soil was really, really poor. The other thing is that sod needs to get watered if it gets laid during the summer months or Mother Nature doesn't provide. That's the fastest way to kill sod, Doug, is to not water it.

Doug: Oh. If you spent all that money on sod and then didn't water it, oh--

Zane: It happens, though. It does happen to where, I don't know if it's poor communication, but I get several photos every year of sod that is just cooked, that it didn't get watered at all, and it's dead, and you're starting over. If you're going to go through the effort and pay the price to sod, make sure that you have the ability to water it, if need be.

You hope that you do it at a time of year when Mother Nature provides. If you can sod now or you can sod in the fall, great chance of success. You start sodding, Doug, in June, July, August, you better be prepared to water it. Yes. In general, much better chance for success, way better chance for success, but you'll see what you pay to do that compared to seeding is what typically prevents most people from doing it.

Doug: That would prevent me from doing it.

[laughter]

Doug: Anyway, we're going long, but I can't let you leave without talking about the importance of a sharp blade to cut that grass.

Zane: Yes. Particularly right now. This is when your mower is going to earn its keep. It's going to mow more grass here over the next month than it might for the rest of the year when you just think about the sheer amount of growth. Yes. Starting off with a sharp mower blade.

Then two, the other part of this, when you're mowing in the spring, that grass is really lush. You have a tendency to get the deck clogged. The blade is one part of what creates the high-quality cut, but those decks are designed to have a vacuum to stand the leaf blades up. If they're just clogged with grass clippings, you'll see that you'll get a really poor cut.

This time of year, unfortunately, you might have to get under there after each mowing and quickly scrape that deck out, obviously, when it's off and with the right safety precautions. The blade is one component, a nice sharp blade, which you want to have in the spring, but also when you're in between mowings to get the deck cleaned out as well.

Doug: Please talk about safety because I know that most people will understand this, but I don't think everybody does. I don't care if it's battery-powered or gas-powered. You have to be sure that when you're underneath there, that blade is not going to start the machine going.

Zane: Yes. Absolutely. If it's a gas-powered push mower, you want to make sure there's no possible way it can get under power. Removing the spark plug wire and maybe even the spark plug is just good practice. If you're on some type of riding mower, same thing. If you have access to the spark plug, to remove it, or you could disconnect the battery. I'm more of a fan of actually taking it to what's going to create the ignition, the spark plug, to have that unhooked, just so the mower, if it would somehow turn over, that there's no spark to keep it going.

Then if you have an electric piece of equipment, to make sure that the battery is not connected to the device. If you're going to service any kind of string trimmer or mower that's battery-powered, do not have the battery hooked up while you're servicing that equipment, have it unhooked. It's terrible, Doug. I've seen some photos from a teachable moment, and it's horrific. Just be vigilant.

Doug: All right, Zane, we're going to leave it right there. As always, we are talking way too long. This is Part 2. Be sure you check out Part 1. Zane, I really enjoy talking to you and learning about this. Every time I get new information from you, which I really appreciate it. We're going to do this again in the fall, from your suggestion, because fall is such an important time for the lawns. Have a great spring, and get out there and get your work done, everybody, [chuckles] but do it safely. Thanks so much, Zane.

[music]

Zane: Yes. Thank you, Doug.

Doug: Zane hits it out of the park again. Great stuff, as always. All right, fellow tree lovers, tune in every Thursday to this Talking Trees podcast from the Davey Tree Expert Company. I'm your host, Doug Oster, and do me a big favor. Subscribe to the podcast. You'll never miss a show. What do you think of this podcast, and what should we be covering?

You can let us know either by sending us an email to podcasts@davey.com. That's podcasts@davey.com. You can also click the link at the end of our show notes to text us a fan mail message, and your ideas might be on a future podcast. As always, we like to remind you on the Talking Trees podcast, trees are the answer.

[00:32:07] [END OF AUDIO]