The Dream World

EP40: Liminal Dreaming: Surfing the In-Between Phases of Sleep and Consciousness

June 03, 2023 Amina Feat. Jennifer Dumpert Season 2 Episode 9
EP40: Liminal Dreaming: Surfing the In-Between Phases of Sleep and Consciousness
The Dream World
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The Dream World
EP40: Liminal Dreaming: Surfing the In-Between Phases of Sleep and Consciousness
Jun 03, 2023 Season 2 Episode 9
Amina Feat. Jennifer Dumpert

Legendary minds like Salvador Dali, and Thomas Edison used their liminal dreams to boost creativity and solve problems in their work! Guess what, you can do this too! We are all natural liminal dreamers, and we pass through this phase every time we fall asleep, or wake up!

What is hypnagogia? How can we learn to navigate the in between phases of sleep where we are half awake and half asleep . What is the science behind this phase of sleep?

Jennifer Dumpert wrote the book Liminal Dreaming.  I am so honored to have her as a guest. Thank you Jen, for putting up with my hectic schedule and terrible wifi connection!
You can find her website, and books here

At the edges of consciousness, between waking and sleeping, there’s a swirling, free associative state of mind that is the domain of liminal dreams. As we sink into slumber, we pass through hypnagogia, the first of the two liminal dream states. In this transitional zone, memories, perceptions, and imaginings arise in a fast moving, hallucinatory, semi-conscious remix. On the other end of the night, as we wake, we experience hypnopompia, the hazy, pleasant, drift that is the other liminal dream state. Readers of Liminal Dreaming will learn step-by-step how to create a dream practice, integrating the deeply unusual half-waking dream states of hypnagogia and hypnopompia into their lives in personally meaningful ways. Working with liminal dreams can improve sleep, mitigate anxiety and depression, help to heal trauma, and aid creativity and problem-solving. Liminal dreaming practice is also far easier to learn than lucid dreaming practice, making it possible for the reader to begin working with these dreams this very night.

Books Mentioned in this episode:
Sleep Paralysis: A Guide to Hypnagogic Visions and Visitors of the Night By Ryan Hurd
Hypnagogia by Andreas Mavromatis
https://www.liminaldreaming.com/

Timestamps
2:50 What is hypnagogia?
5:50 EEG States
11:20 Circadian rhythm
13:20 Are you an Owl or  a Lark?
17:00 Sleep paralysis: How to avoid it and how to embrace it. 
21:45 Phases of sleep 
36:40 Liminal Vs REM dreams
38:40 How to use hypnagogia for creativity: Dali-Edison Method
43:17 Oneirogen dream enhancement
46:03 How do binaural beats work?
50:55 Hypnopompia 

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Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Legendary minds like Salvador Dali, and Thomas Edison used their liminal dreams to boost creativity and solve problems in their work! Guess what, you can do this too! We are all natural liminal dreamers, and we pass through this phase every time we fall asleep, or wake up!

What is hypnagogia? How can we learn to navigate the in between phases of sleep where we are half awake and half asleep . What is the science behind this phase of sleep?

Jennifer Dumpert wrote the book Liminal Dreaming.  I am so honored to have her as a guest. Thank you Jen, for putting up with my hectic schedule and terrible wifi connection!
You can find her website, and books here

At the edges of consciousness, between waking and sleeping, there’s a swirling, free associative state of mind that is the domain of liminal dreams. As we sink into slumber, we pass through hypnagogia, the first of the two liminal dream states. In this transitional zone, memories, perceptions, and imaginings arise in a fast moving, hallucinatory, semi-conscious remix. On the other end of the night, as we wake, we experience hypnopompia, the hazy, pleasant, drift that is the other liminal dream state. Readers of Liminal Dreaming will learn step-by-step how to create a dream practice, integrating the deeply unusual half-waking dream states of hypnagogia and hypnopompia into their lives in personally meaningful ways. Working with liminal dreams can improve sleep, mitigate anxiety and depression, help to heal trauma, and aid creativity and problem-solving. Liminal dreaming practice is also far easier to learn than lucid dreaming practice, making it possible for the reader to begin working with these dreams this very night.

Books Mentioned in this episode:
Sleep Paralysis: A Guide to Hypnagogic Visions and Visitors of the Night By Ryan Hurd
Hypnagogia by Andreas Mavromatis
https://www.liminaldreaming.com/

Timestamps
2:50 What is hypnagogia?
5:50 EEG States
11:20 Circadian rhythm
13:20 Are you an Owl or  a Lark?
17:00 Sleep paralysis: How to avoid it and how to embrace it. 
21:45 Phases of sleep 
36:40 Liminal Vs REM dreams
38:40 How to use hypnagogia for creativity: Dali-Edison Method
43:17 Oneirogen dream enhancement
46:03 How do binaural beats work?
50:55 Hypnopompia 

Support the Show.

Follow The Dream World Podcast
Visit Our Website
Instagram @TheDreamWorldPodcast
Tik Tok @aminasdreamworld
Spotify
Facebook
Lucid Dreaming Online Course

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:15:06
Unknown
I call them liminal dreams because liminal comes from the Latin Limon, which is like a doorway or a threshold, and it's a place that's both and neither like a door way is in both rooms and it's in neither room.

00:00:15:08 - 00:00:24:10
Unknown
So liminal is like both and neither. And it's that space where you are simultaneously awake and asleep.

00:00:24:10 - 00:00:33:00
Unknown
I'm recording this time. I'm excited to talk to you. Great. Well, welcome back to the Dream World podcast.

00:00:33:00 - 00:00:40:24
Unknown
So you wrote your book? I actually have it right here. It's called Liminal Dreaming. It's one of my favorite books that I've read on dream work.

00:00:40:24 - 00:00:44:16
Unknown
So my name is Jen Dumpert, and I am the author of Liminal Dreaming.

00:00:44:21 - 00:00:47:09
Unknown
I've been working in

00:00:47:09 - 00:01:04:22
Unknown
Field of Dreams in the Arena of Dreams for a very long time, and I was doing lucid dreaming like a lot of people did, and studied with Stephen the Bears. And I did a lot of dreams centric events. I did an event called the owner Narcan, which we can talk about a little bit

00:01:05:01 - 00:01:07:16
Unknown
So I was doing a lot of different work with dreams

00:01:07:16 - 00:01:18:16
Unknown
I actually had a kind of a watershed dream, which has often been what led me into my next phase of work. And it was a dream that I had

00:01:18:16 - 00:01:23:16
Unknown
in that in-between space. It was a dream I had while I was falling asleep.

00:01:23:16 - 00:01:26:20
Unknown
a few things happened and it was very, very late

00:01:26:20 - 00:01:36:00
Unknown
dream. It was almost like it was overwritten on everything else. And I realized that I was actually still pretty awake, like I was still

00:01:36:00 - 00:01:47:12
Unknown
aware of where I was and then the bed and, you know, my spouse is there. I can hear him breathing. But I was also having this dream and I thought, you know, I have these kinds of dreams a lot.

00:01:47:13 - 00:02:03:22
Unknown
You know, these kinds of dreams where I'm kind of half awake and half asleep and I don't I don't know anything about them. I don't really know nobody. I've never heard anybody sort of talking about them. And then I had an experience which is that it happened to me when I was younger of having my

00:02:03:22 - 00:02:12:01
Unknown
body fall asleep while my mind was still kind of awake and I was like, okay, so, you know, so what is this?

00:02:12:01 - 00:02:17:18
Unknown
So I really started looking into these particular kinds of dreams which are

00:02:17:18 - 00:02:23:15
Unknown
so poorly studied, so poorly documented, and yet are one of the,

00:02:23:15 - 00:02:34:01
Unknown
eight states that we all go through every 24 hours. Everybody goes through having a goggia at least every 24 hours. So I just got really interested in these kinds of dreams.

00:02:34:01 - 00:02:37:11
Unknown
Yeah, I feel like those are some of the dreams that a lot of people can relate to.

00:02:37:11 - 00:02:49:15
Unknown
Even people that don't dream tend to have weird hypnotic logic phases. So why don't you tell me what that means? The word hypnotic. Yeah. A lot of people aren't familiar with Anhedonia Pompey, which is related as well.

00:02:49:15 - 00:02:51:12
Unknown
Sure. And liminal for that matter.

00:02:51:12 - 00:03:06:22
Unknown
I call them liminal dreams because liminal comes from the Latin Limon, which is like a doorway or a threshold, and it's a place that's both and neither like a door way is in both rooms and it's in neither room.

00:03:06:24 - 00:03:16:01
Unknown
So liminal is like both and neither. And it's that space where you are simultaneously awake and asleep.

00:03:16:02 - 00:03:38:13
Unknown
So adagio is the space between awake and asleep. As you're falling asleep, you go through the door. Hypnosis is the Greek god of sleep. A Go-Go's is going toward. It's from the Greek. So hitting the gotcha is going. It's a nice image like you're moving toward the god of sleep and the popular is the opposite.

00:03:38:19 - 00:03:48:10
Unknown
Pop music is what happens when you are going from asleep to awake hypnosis again. And pop is going away from like pomp and circumstance, you know, when you're graduating.

00:03:48:10 - 00:04:01:24
Unknown
And again, everybody goes through this state every 24 hours. It's that state of mind that you go through when you're, for example, struggling to stay awake and you have that hallucinatory.

00:04:02:02 - 00:04:33:07
Unknown
Often, often there's sound. It's like a kaleidoscopic association, like memory image, things that are things that are just kind of in your mind. And so if you've ever been for example, struggling to stay awake, you're watching a movie or you're waiting for someone to come home or I mean, happens driving, I'm sorry to say, but it does. And you're starting to have the hallucinatory, similar kind of dreams that that's happening.

00:04:33:07 - 00:04:34:03
Unknown
Gotcha.

00:04:34:03 - 00:04:38:17
Unknown
Yes. And you're right that people who often don't remember their dreams,

00:04:38:17 - 00:04:51:13
Unknown
if that's you, then hitting the gotcha is actually the the state that where people who have like short fast circadian rhythms people who don't remember dreams as a general rule can can work well with hitting goggia.

00:04:51:13 - 00:04:52:15
Unknown
So it's a really

00:04:52:15 - 00:05:13:18
Unknown
available dream state. But your but the thing about the God, you know is that in these states you are both awake and asleep at the same time. So I can be lying on the bed and I'm hearing the clock strike six and I'm, I hear my, my neighbors yelling whatever it is. Like I hear all of these things.

00:05:13:20 - 00:05:21:04
Unknown
But at the same time, I'm kind of having that light dream. So it's it's both awake and asleep and neither awake nor asleep.

00:05:21:04 - 00:05:33:20
Unknown
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm definitely a hip and a Pompey a person. I have a lot of dreams in the morning and that's my prime. But when it comes to the night, I do have some hypnotizing dreams, but I fall asleep very quickly.

00:05:33:22 - 00:05:40:12
Unknown
So what are some ways that we can learn to like surf in this phase if we're not generally used to paying attention to this?

00:05:40:12 - 00:05:42:19
Unknown
working again, working with hitting the goggia

00:05:42:19 - 00:05:46:02
Unknown
is wonderful because it's so available to us.

00:05:46:02 - 00:05:57:17
Unknown
as I keep saying, every 24 hours we go through this set and I'm not actually going to back up and talk about this a little bit and then I'm going to give you some practices just because it it helps people understand a little bit.

00:05:57:17 - 00:06:18:23
Unknown
So we all know, right? It's when you're talking about brains and I differentiate between brain and mind, just to be clear. So we're talking about brains. We're often talking about like electricity and chemicals, right? Like, how do you read what's happening in the brain? And we all know like an EEG, it right. It goes, you know, kind of goes like this.

00:06:18:23 - 00:06:39:18
Unknown
And so every 24 hours, we all go through various EEG states, you know, like like right now we're engaged in a conversation. We're engaged is the word. So probably our brainwaves are in beta something like 14 to 30 waves per second,

00:06:39:18 - 00:06:44:15
Unknown
in the deepest sleep. It's like point 5 to 3.

00:06:44:17 - 00:07:04:03
Unknown
It's like the lowest waves per second is we're super amped up and excited. You know, you're kind of in Gamma, which is like, you know, like 40, you know. So there are all these different brainwave states. And in a 24 hour cycle, we go through these different brainwave states, the ones that are awake and the ones that are sleep.

00:07:04:03 - 00:07:04:23
Unknown
And so

00:07:04:23 - 00:07:22:08
Unknown
hit the gadget, pop me up, are two of these brainwave states, and they're pretty similar. Some people argue that they shouldn't be called just one thing. I actually I strongly differentiate between them, but that's a whole other story.

00:07:22:08 - 00:07:39:00
Unknown
we're all having this experience, right? So you all go everybody goes through it, everybody knows it. And one of the most common reactions I get when I'm talking about getting to is people saying, Oh, yeah, of course I know that.

00:07:39:00 - 00:08:00:13
Unknown
Like, I didn't know that was like a thing. I didn't know it had a name. And it does. So everybody does it naturally. Like something like lucid dreaming takes a lot of work to learn how to do it, to get into it. But everybody is a natural, liminal dreamer, so it's very easy to just drop into that and talk about that a little bit later.

00:08:00:13 - 00:08:22:12
Unknown
But I'm going to answer your question. That's a very long winded way of getting to answering your question, which is like, how can we learn to go into the States? So because the gotcha is a naturally occurring state, what you're really doing is you're just learning to recognize when you're in it and then to learn.

00:08:22:12 - 00:08:26:12
Unknown
to expand out the time that you spend there,

00:08:26:12 - 00:08:34:15
Unknown
there's a lot of easy ways to do this. For example, when you're sleepy in the afternoon,

00:08:34:15 - 00:08:50:18
Unknown
you can just lie down on the couch and start to go into nap space and you can use like a voice activated recorder. So they're available as a phone app, easy sheet, you know, a few dollars to get a phone app.

00:08:50:18 - 00:08:53:13
Unknown
you can have the recorder near you or a pen and pencil,

00:08:53:13 - 00:09:11:21
Unknown
a lot of other exercises for like creativity, problem solving. Can you get to that too? But when you're lying down and napping, you know, try to pay attention to where your mind is going and when you sort of start to go into that hallucinatory state, you can

00:09:11:21 - 00:09:18:12
Unknown
either start writing it down or you can even just start mumbling into your voice activated recorder.

00:09:18:12 - 00:09:27:18
Unknown
to try to bring on the state. You can try Napping in public is really good. Like if there's a park where you feel comfortable lying down on a blanket,

00:09:27:18 - 00:09:37:04
Unknown
if you're on a long Carteret, climb into the backseat and try napping. There. When you're going to sleep at night,

00:09:37:04 - 00:09:40:09
Unknown
You can try this exercise that I call the vanishing point.

00:09:40:09 - 00:10:10:24
Unknown
really what you're trying to do is track the moment that you fall asleep and you actually can catch it. You really can catch that moment. It's very hard. But the practice of doing it will help you find that moment. So just as you're lying in bed, try relaxing your body, breathe slowly, deeply, relax your body, but kind of keep your mind awake.

00:10:11:01 - 00:10:25:17
Unknown
And if you feel yourself, start to drift off, give yourself a little mental juice. If you are to amped up, you know, breathe out, you know, relax your body, right? Try to find that.

00:10:25:17 - 00:10:38:10
Unknown
that loop like that feedback loop, and then you'll start to recognize where those spaces are. You'll start to recognize like, Oh, wait a minute, I'm having that that hallucinatory state.

00:10:38:10 - 00:10:59:12
Unknown
I'm having that now. And again, I'm talking about demagogy specifically. No, I'm not hip hop. You can Magaji is a little easier to find, right? You'll start to recognize that you're in that state. It's a it's really great to try this. Like I say, in the afternoon when your naturally have an energy, you know, the

00:10:59:12 - 00:11:02:05
Unknown
Those bicycles are contingent on

00:11:02:05 - 00:11:10:22
Unknown
on your circadian rhythm and most of us have an energy drop in the afternoon. It's a really good time to try and catch

00:11:10:22 - 00:11:11:22
Unknown
hitting together.

00:11:11:22 - 00:11:14:20
Unknown
so really a lot of it is just becoming familiar with it.

00:11:14:20 - 00:11:16:05
Unknown
and honestly, just

00:11:16:05 - 00:11:22:22
Unknown
just when you're going to sleep, like take a nap, just take a nap and try to catch that point.

00:11:23:03 - 00:11:32:16
Unknown
There's a lot of ways to sort of learn to locate it. It's really easy to find since we all naturally go through it. The trick is learning then to expand it out.

00:11:32:16 - 00:11:57:15
Unknown
What are how can we understand our personal circadian rhythm better to help us with this process? Yeah, that's a great question and actually it's a great place to start understanding what I'm talking about when I'm talking about liminal dreaming. So circadian rhythm, it comes from the Latin circa around Dan Day, so around day and in the in the fifties.

00:11:57:17 - 00:12:08:05
Unknown
Eugene As ORANSKY, who's often called the the godfather of sleep research, he's also the guy who figured out about REM. And

00:12:08:05 - 00:12:11:07
Unknown
realized that we have a circadian rhythm.

00:12:11:07 - 00:12:46:18
Unknown
And again, this is just the fifties. So before the 1950s, Western science news so little about sleep and dream, and it's still really, really poorly studied. And in fact, there are really only a couple of books out there, including mine, about even about hitting a goggia. So you just as risky took some of his graduate students and they went into a cave, basically like deep into a place where there were no sunset sunrise, just dark, dark caves.

00:12:46:20 - 00:12:57:23
Unknown
And they measured when they slept, when they wanted to eat, when you know what their energy fluctuations were, etc.. And they basically

00:12:57:23 - 00:12:58:22
Unknown
discovered

00:12:58:22 - 00:13:11:03
Unknown
began to understand circadian rhythm. So circadian rhythm is what we have most in common with plants. Anything that is alive because of the sun, and that's most of the things on the earth,

00:13:11:03 - 00:13:15:13
Unknown
So there's the 24 hour cycle of the sun,

00:13:15:13 - 00:13:28:24
Unknown
most of us don't actually have like a 24 our energy cycle that matches that of the sun. Some people kind of do. But there are people who have like shorter, faster circadian rhythms,

00:13:28:24 - 00:13:53:05
Unknown
those people are called lurks. And, you know, so, you know, if you're alert, if you wake up in the morning and as soon as you get up being, you're like wide awake, as soon as you open your eyes, your wide awake, you jump up, you're ready to face today if when you start working your best, your best when you're fresh, and as you're kind of starting to work,

00:13:53:07 - 00:14:16:16
Unknown
you you lose steam a little bit, if you like. Go to bed early. You're like the first person who's ready to leave the party. Then you're probably alert. That probably means you have like a short fast circadian rhythm. The opposite is an owl. If you're an owl, you probably have like a slow, long circadian rhythm. So here's how.

00:14:16:16 - 00:14:37:19
Unknown
You know, if you're an owl, if you wake up very slowly, you're pretty confused in the morning, you're kind of stumbling around for a little while. You can work for really long stretches of time and kind of the longer you work, the better you are. You're like the last person up at the party. You probably go to sleep late.

00:14:37:21 - 00:14:43:22
Unknown
Well, then that means you're an owl. And then there are the people who are kind of in between.

00:14:43:22 - 00:15:01:09
Unknown
About 40% of people are larks. About 30% of people are owls, and about 30% of people are in between, which is, by the way, why a lot of the world is set up for larks. And there's that whole early to bed, early to rise,

00:15:01:09 - 00:15:02:01
Unknown
business.

00:15:02:01 - 00:15:41:13
Unknown
And, you know, schools start really early, but actually now people are starting to catch up and realize that some people actually have different rhythms. And so there are things like high school students starting later in the day to suit their circadian rhythm. But your circadian rhythm makes a huge difference in terms of how your dreaming is. So if you're allergic, if you have a short, fast circadian rhythm, you probably don't really remember your dreams as easily, like big, partly because you wake up so quickly and you actually probably don't really experience much hip the pop.

00:15:41:13 - 00:15:45:18
Unknown
Yeah, that, that, that point when you're waking up in the morning

00:15:45:18 - 00:16:02:21
Unknown
but hip and adagio is really the dream state for you. And when people actually come to me at my talks workshops and say, I don't remember my dreams, what's wrong with me? What am I, You know, what am I doing that I shouldn't be doing? I ask them these questions and usually it's because they're alert.

00:16:02:23 - 00:16:10:20
Unknown
And I'm like, it's just it's genetic, right? You're getting rhythm as we inherit it. You can change it as anyone who's ever worked the night shift or had children knows.

00:16:10:20 - 00:16:17:21
Unknown
and often people who are really doing a lot of dream work are owls, because all of the different

00:16:17:21 - 00:16:20:00
Unknown
kinds of dreaming

00:16:20:00 - 00:16:21:13
Unknown
are available to you.

00:16:21:18 - 00:16:41:22
Unknown
Engage in hip hop near you, remember your REM dreams or whatever. But if you're a lark, then hip to gotcha is actually really where you're going to be remembering your dreams. And it's probably about drifting off at night stage when you're going to be getting the idea that you have most of your dreams. But it's just those are so hard to remember because they're at the beginning of the night,

00:16:41:22 - 00:16:42:22
Unknown
kind of as you're going.

00:16:42:22 - 00:16:50:07
Unknown
And so understanding your circadian rhythm is really going to help you when it comes to determining what you're dreaming is.

00:16:50:07 - 00:17:02:22
Unknown
Yeah, it makes sense. I definitely think I am a lark that has trained myself to have vivid dreams on both ends of sleep. You know, it takes a lot of practice for me. That's really cool. So I have a question for you relating to these liminal dreams.

00:17:02:22 - 00:17:25:23
Unknown
A lot of people ask me about sleep paralysis. Would you consider this part of like a liminal experience? And is that more likely to happen if you're working with having to go, yeah, yeah, yeah. So sleep paralysis is usually a liminal, not always, but usually a liminal dream phenomenon. A lot of some of what's happening is what's called REM breakthrough.

00:17:26:02 - 00:17:32:04
Unknown
So you're in, for example, hitting the object state and then the REM kind of breakthrough

00:17:32:04 - 00:17:54:02
Unknown
Unlike Goggia in REM dreams, your acetylcholine and a bunch of other chemicals work to paralyze you, right? So that you don't act out your dreams. Right? So you're paralyzed here. Your limbs are paralyzed. You know, obviously, some people sleepwalk and sick talk, so the chemicals aren't quite doing their job.

00:17:54:02 - 00:18:13:05
Unknown
one of the ways that you experience sleep paralysis is that you're in a gojek dream state. So you're both awake and asleep at the same time and then get a REM breakthrough so you're paralyzed and you're also having these sort of more intense kind of dream imagery,

00:18:13:08 - 00:18:36:22
Unknown
So it can be very, very frightening. About 4% of the population regularly experiences sleep paralysis, but almost all of it, all of us go through it at some point or other in our lives. And for example, you have that maybe it's a false awakening and you feel like you've woken up. Or maybe it's it's just that you're you're trying to run.

00:18:36:22 - 00:18:51:20
Unknown
You can't move your limbs. You're trying to scream. You can't move anything. Often there is a frightening entity. There's some sort of scary figure who's there in the room with you. This is often,

00:18:51:20 - 00:19:05:06
Unknown
yes, a limited screen experience. And so there's a lot of different ways to work with this. And it is incidental. We all cultures have myths about sleep paralysis.

00:19:05:06 - 00:19:30:10
Unknown
So we have, for example, that the succubus or the incubus. We also maybe you've heard about the the cat who's sitting on your chest and sucking out your life force, the old hag. But there's also like in Hawaii, it's the night marchers in a lot of Asian cultures, it's a it's a ghost, an unappreciated ghost who's who's coming back, who's, you know, who who's trying to get you to pay attention?

00:19:30:13 - 00:19:40:22
Unknown
In Italian lore, there's this crazy little goblin. You know, like most cultures have some sort of myth about the. The figure in sleep paralysis.

00:19:40:22 - 00:19:47:18
Unknown
If you are somebody who has this experience, pretty often, I really recommend

00:19:47:18 - 00:19:51:07
Unknown
a book written by Ryan Hurd,

00:19:51:07 - 00:20:03:16
Unknown
called Sleep Paralysis. And it talks a lot about this phenomenon and also talks a lot about exercises that both ways to get yourself out of the paralysis,

00:20:03:16 - 00:20:08:18
Unknown
but also quite interestingly, ways to get yourself into the sleep paralysis of.

00:20:08:18 - 00:20:09:12
Unknown
One of the things that

00:20:09:12 - 00:20:11:06
Unknown
talks about is that

00:20:11:06 - 00:20:33:05
Unknown
curiosity is always going to be what trumps the fear, right? So if you become curious enough, then you sort of stop being afraid. So he's somebody who who suffered from sleep paralysis. And for a long time he came up with exercises to get out of it, whatever. And then at some point he was like, wait a minute.

00:20:33:07 - 00:20:54:19
Unknown
And he turned the tables and started trying to actually bring on sleep paralysis, because then he was kind of the one who was in control of the circumstance. And he got to a place like there had been this like big, scary little like monster that was always there in his sleep paralysis. And at one point finally, he, like, marched up to it.

00:20:54:19 - 00:21:10:03
Unknown
He said, What do you want? Why are you always here? And the monsters are We're trying to get your attention. For years there is a wise man who wants to give you a teaching over here, who wants to talk to you. And it just completely changed the dream. So sleep paralysis is

00:21:10:03 - 00:21:12:05
Unknown
like I said, something a lot of people experience.

00:21:12:05 - 00:21:14:07
Unknown
If you're somebody who has a lot of sleep paralysis,

00:21:14:07 - 00:21:28:23
Unknown
one of the ways to to deal with it is just really regular sleep, regular sleep cycles because it's when you're not getting good sleep and your REM you're not getting REM sleep in your REM is kind of like that pushing in on you.

00:21:28:23 - 00:21:34:19
Unknown
That's kind of one of the times that you're going to have this experience of of sleep paralysis.

00:21:34:19 - 00:21:43:20
Unknown
I've had a lot of sleep paralysis, so I've become accustomed to it. And now I actually get excited for it because it leads to some really interesting experiences, like you said.

00:21:43:20 - 00:21:45:22
Unknown
this I'm going to show you this chart

00:21:45:22 - 00:21:51:10
Unknown
and this is going to really help clarify a lot of what I'm talking about.

00:21:51:10 - 00:21:53:12
Unknown
And maybe I should start it with this. But

00:21:53:12 - 00:22:06:20
Unknown
this chart shows you the EEG states that are happening over the course of like a seven and a half hour night of sleep.

00:22:06:20 - 00:22:18:12
Unknown
like I say, right now, you and I are engaged in this conversation. We're probably in a we're awake. Obviously, we're probably in theta. So like 13 to 30 waves per second.

00:22:18:12 - 00:22:39:03
Unknown
And then over the course of a night of sleep, it kind of looks like this. So every 90 minutes, more or less, we wake up. It's true of it's true through the night. It's true of everybody. Most of the time. It happened so quickly that you don't necessarily notice it happening,

00:22:39:03 - 00:23:02:10
Unknown
but it still happens. So these orange lines here show the times of the night when we're waking up, and that's called a sleep cycle that those those are those points when you're waking up so you're awake and then you go through this state, this first state of of hitting the goggia.

00:23:02:10 - 00:23:07:19
Unknown
And I'm going to talk about the waves there in a second after I sort of go through this chart.

00:23:07:19 - 00:23:30:10
Unknown
and then you pass through that stage of goggia and then you go into theta. So theta is like 4.7 hertz, which is waves per second. Theta is where as adults, most of our sleep is in theta. The older we get, the more the higher proportion of theta we have in our sleeps.

00:23:30:11 - 00:23:33:03
Unknown
Little babies in the womb

00:23:33:03 - 00:23:49:21
Unknown
fetuses are in REM. Most of the time. Fetuses are cycling in and out of REM. Something like every 20 minutes. And then anybody who has had children and watched your baby closely knows that newborns up until like six months are also

00:23:49:21 - 00:23:55:00
Unknown
in REM a lot. So you can see the little eyes moving underneath their eyelids.

00:23:55:02 - 00:24:04:06
Unknown
Scientists think that there is an association between REM and forming memory, which we can talk about a little bit when I talk about REM little bit more

00:24:04:06 - 00:24:23:22
Unknown
but theta is where most of our sleep is, and it is also we're really deep meditators though. So you go from awake through your first turn God, you get into theta and then you go into Delta deep sleep and that's like 8.5 to 3 or four, right?

00:24:23:24 - 00:24:27:19
Unknown
Without deep sleep, you die without REM to go crazy.

00:24:27:19 - 00:24:34:23
Unknown
So you go through your first stage of deep sleep, a little bit more theta, your first stage of REM, and then you wake up again.

00:24:34:23 - 00:24:49:18
Unknown
and then that's your first sleep cycle, your second sleep cycle. You go through that and goggia again, you go back and forth between theta and deep sleep, your next little bit of REM, and then you wake up again.

00:24:49:20 - 00:25:09:14
Unknown
So you need deep sleep to live. So that's one of the reasons that in this first like 3 hours, you know, and that might be six, three, four, it goes a little bit obviously, but in your in the first part of the night is when you get the deep sleep. And that's what people with insomnia often will wake up then.

00:25:09:16 - 00:25:14:06
Unknown
And that's when they have a hard time going back to sleep like this, this three hour awakening,

00:25:14:06 - 00:25:17:19
Unknown
is where people in insomnia will often go

00:25:17:19 - 00:25:30:17
Unknown
and then from there you go a little bit through REM and then you wake up. And then for the rest of the time, you're asleep, whether you're asleep for seven and a half hours or whether you're asleep for 10 hours,

00:25:30:17 - 00:25:35:02
Unknown
you're going back and forth between rem and theta.

00:25:35:04 - 00:26:01:11
Unknown
And the longer you sleep, the higher the proportion of REM is. If you look at this chart, you see that the REM is actually getting longer and proportionally to the theta in every sleep cycle until eventually you go through the popular and then you wake up. So this disappeared being like the line between awake and asleep. Right? So this is kind of the the course of a night.

00:26:01:11 - 00:26:12:10
Unknown
when I'm talking about the states and you know what you go to every 24 hours, like every 24 hours, everybody is kind of going through that state.

00:26:12:16 - 00:26:31:12
Unknown
So from from awake to asleep, once you're fully asleep and from asleep to awake, you know, once you're sort of sort of fully awake. So, I mean, talking about REM and talking about these periods, I think it's really useful to to see those cycles and see, you know, what's what.

00:26:31:12 - 00:26:45:14
Unknown
I wanted to ask you about some of your personal experiences, because I read in your book that, you know, you trained yourself to have really interesting hypnotic dreams and kind of been able to even communicate across the border of consciousness, which I find so fascinating.

00:26:45:14 - 00:26:52:06
Unknown
You know, when you're half awake, half asleep, are there any, like, really cool dreams that you like to share that you can think of?

00:26:52:06 - 00:26:53:13
Unknown
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

00:26:53:13 - 00:27:05:19
Unknown
as I say, there is the state. You know, you're both awake, Andras sleep at the same time and it makes for some really extraordinary experiences.

00:27:05:19 - 00:27:12:24
Unknown
I can actually read you some of these sections of dreams. So.

00:27:12:24 - 00:27:18:15
Unknown
you know, as a practice, I've really learned how to go into these dream states.

00:27:18:15 - 00:27:25:19
Unknown
There's a lot of very weird stuff there and there's a lot of reasons to be working with liminal dreaming

00:27:25:19 - 00:27:47:04
Unknown
creativity, problem solving, mental and physical healing. There is a lot that you can do with liminal dreaming. You can talk about what some of those exercises and practices are, but for me, a lot of what I'm really doing is I'm going into consciousness exploration, right?

00:27:47:05 - 00:27:51:08
Unknown
I'm really trying to figure out like what kind of happening in my mind.

00:27:51:08 - 00:28:12:15
Unknown
discovered and this actually isn't in the book, this is this is something that, as I have continued working with Liminal dreaming as a practice, I've discovered that there are kind of like different phases of hip negotiation where you're both like awake and asleep, but in varying degrees of awake and asleep.

00:28:12:17 - 00:28:48:02
Unknown
And one of the only other books that's really specifically about these states is a book called Hitting the Goggia by Undressed Love Ramadoss, and it's written in 1984, I think maybe 83. And he talks about the four stages of having to goggia the latest state to like the deepest state and his states. They're very specific, you know, where there's like one of them as nature scenes like the at the latest states is like spaces turning towards you which actually does happen to me.

00:28:48:02 - 00:29:05:24
Unknown
And I actually had a friend whose kid was afraid as he was falling asleep of the faces that would turn toward him, you know, as he was kind of going in a flight to sleep. And so he would try to, you know, go to sleep with with his son. And then he said it started happening to him a lot.

00:29:06:01 - 00:29:29:14
Unknown
But over time, I have discovered these kind of four stages of it. And again, I first sort of describe it at I was at a production of Carmen the Opera with my in-laws, and it was not a particularly good production of Carmen. So I kind of wanted to pay attention to it. But I also, you know, was kind of ignoring it.

00:29:29:14 - 00:29:48:16
Unknown
And so I was going and hitting the goggia. And so I would I would close my eyes and I would go into a hypnotic object state of drifting into hypnotic object state. But I was tracking the music because, again, awake and asleep at the same time and everything on it. And in opera they often have like the supertitles so that you can read what's happening.

00:29:48:16 - 00:30:17:09
Unknown
Like it's all the words. So I would go and I would listen to the music. And every time the music changed, I knew that something had changed in the story. So I would open my eyes and I would read the supertitles and then I would go back and get the gotcha. So I was I was staying very aware, but still going into hip magazine, I'm going to call this like the latest stage of hip Goggia, where maybe 80% awake and 20% asleep because you can be all sort of different percentages of awake and asleep.

00:30:17:09 - 00:30:19:18
Unknown
So this is this is still a little bit of sleep.

00:30:19:18 - 00:30:56:16
Unknown
but sort of mostly awake. And in this stage of hip and goggia, I discovered that it really unlocks memory, like childhood memory. And in this experience, the Carmen, I had this really vivid memory of the public swimming pool where my sister and I used to go swimming when we were kids and like her yellow bathing suit and the the smell of the chlorine and the sound of my feet slapping on the wet concrete and like just the gray lockers, I just had this incredibly vivid, vivid memory

00:30:56:16 - 00:30:57:13
Unknown
of like, what

00:30:57:13 - 00:31:18:08
Unknown
had happened in my childhood. So so that's one stage that you can go into. And if you're interested in experimenting with this stage, listening to music is a great way to do it. So listen to a piece of music that you know, you're maybe trying to pay attention to the words or pay attention to the music, but like try to drift off into the light sleep.

00:31:18:14 - 00:31:32:01
Unknown
And I discovered that it is really amazing for unlocking like childhood memory and really vivid sensory memory, you know, like, like sticks, like taste and smell and sounds.

00:31:32:01 - 00:31:40:00
Unknown
the next sort of level down where I'm going to say maybe you're like 60% asleep and 40% awake.

00:31:40:00 - 00:31:55:21
Unknown
you know, I first started noticing this one in my one one time in my room, like, just like when I was, you know, whatever playing which happened to Goggia and I'm like, lying in my bed and I'm I'm kind of aware of what's going on.

00:31:55:21 - 00:32:23:19
Unknown
I'm a little bit wet and there's a lot of wordplay involved in this stage of hip magog. So, you know, again, you can hear the neighbors. And so I, I have developed this partly through like an automatic writing practice. And like automatic writing is a very old practice, like, you know, John D channel, the Angels John did was like damaged like Queen Elizabeth in the 1600s, Right?

00:32:23:19 - 00:32:49:24
Unknown
Queen Elizabeth, the first wizard and like the classic wizard with the big hat and, the stars on it and whatever is kind of based on John D would kind of go into hitting the goggia and get in touch with these angels and write things down. Or the DOT tests. Had you had a practice of automatic writing where they would go and hit the goggia and they would just like, you know, like a suit with a pen and paper I can touch type.

00:32:50:01 - 00:33:30:21
Unknown
And so I learned to sit back with my computer in my lap or my laptop in my lap, just, just typing in the goggia. So I made him the goggia and I'm kind of just touch typing what's happening. And so it's very language and wordplay and I'm actually going to read you one of those drinks speared asparagus cooking class to Christmas Tree Angel's, hold hands, mostly a wick, but the dream gets deeper in the mouths of the little sea creatures wiggling at the bottom of my field of perception, though there is no edge, right?

00:33:30:23 - 00:33:52:10
Unknown
And pink, a set of cat ears in the very far distance. My upstairs neighbors yelling Maybe a sporting events. The sound ricochets the word ricochet. How do I spell that? Seems like it has a C-H, but not crazy in the hussy. Crazier, a pulsating light off to the right.

00:33:52:10 - 00:33:58:17
Unknown
so that was kind of like automatic writing and going into the hitting a gotcha that way

00:33:58:17 - 00:34:02:21
Unknown
and then going like deeper in, you start to get to the

00:34:02:21 - 00:34:05:13
Unknown
stages, you're actually more,

00:34:05:13 - 00:34:06:20
Unknown
more asleep

00:34:06:20 - 00:34:07:24
Unknown
than awake.

00:34:07:24 - 00:34:12:06
Unknown
So I was talking earlier about the,

00:34:12:06 - 00:34:14:21
Unknown
the, the practices of

00:34:14:21 - 00:34:29:13
Unknown
you know, using voice activated. Reporter. So that's one of the ways that I had gotten into those states where I'm actually more asleep than awake. And those are very image heavy. I actually have one in the book,

00:34:29:13 - 00:34:32:02
Unknown
but where it's a lot of like

00:34:32:02 - 00:34:46:02
Unknown
Persian rug, you know, mandala images, kaleidoscopic swirling, changing, like the color purple coming back and forth, clouds moving, very visual.

00:34:46:04 - 00:35:00:08
Unknown
Some for some people very oral, like a my spouse tunes into an alien radio station. Sometimes I hear crowds running down the street outside of my apartment. So that's that actually starts to get very visual.

00:35:00:08 - 00:35:08:10
Unknown
at the final state of the Goggia, which is the deepest state where you start to get a little bit more in the way of storyline

00:35:08:10 - 00:35:10:07
Unknown
that's that vanishing point.

00:35:10:09 - 00:35:25:23
Unknown
So The you're actually starting to get maybe something that's a little bit more like a normal dream, something that's a little bit more like it's like it's a narrative happening. And to get that, that's where you try to like, hold on to the moment that you're falling asleep.

00:35:25:23 - 00:35:34:17
Unknown
I can see how that's such an area for like creative inspiration, like the dream you share just sounds like such a vivid, like it's so visual and so vivid.

00:35:34:17 - 00:35:35:18
Unknown
That's really cool.

00:35:35:18 - 00:35:51:13
Unknown
when you notice that moment that you fall asleep just really quick, like, what does that feel like? Do you just do you just notice because you're aware and then all of a sudden you're not, And then when you wake up, you're like, Oh, I remember that last moment of awareness. Does that make sense?

00:35:51:15 - 00:36:12:10
Unknown
Yeah, it does. And that's a great question and it's really hard to describe and it's really it's a very weird circumstance. So basically and honestly, this used to happen to me when I was young and taking a lot of real estate and I would have this experience and now, you know, later in life I realize that I actually have it in a gotcha as well.

00:36:12:10 - 00:36:16:11
Unknown
And it's the the feeling of falling asleep. So,

00:36:16:11 - 00:36:34:11
Unknown
for example, I will hear my breathing start to get slower, I'll feel my limbs start, get heavier, and then I'll I'll get to the place where all realize that my body has fallen asleep and I can feel that full

00:36:34:11 - 00:36:43:02
Unknown
physical relaxation of being asleep and my mind is still there, but it's just kind of holding on.

00:36:43:02 - 00:36:47:15
Unknown
It's often there. That's where it is, like more of a narrative kind of dream.

00:36:47:15 - 00:36:52:05
Unknown
so I can feel the more the deepest like, you know, 80% to sleep.

00:36:52:05 - 00:36:57:18
Unknown
those narrative dreams are happening in my consciousness, starting to slip away on your right.

00:36:57:18 - 00:36:59:21
Unknown
And then and then it's just

00:36:59:21 - 00:37:04:17
Unknown
I wake up and, you know, maybe I have the memory of that having happened or maybe I don't.

00:37:04:17 - 00:37:20:09
Unknown
one of the things that distinguishes liminal dreams from REM dreams is that liminal dreams, for the most part, except for the deepest ones, they don't actually tend to be narrative in the same kind of way.

00:37:20:09 - 00:37:41:06
Unknown
So REM dreams are a lot like being awake, but weirder, right? So, you know, I'm on I'm on Mars and there's a there's a big orange spaceship that flies around the universe collecting samples. And, you know, me and my squirrel family are throwing rocks at it, whatever it is, right? It's a I mean, I'm in the world. There's a thing happening.

00:37:41:06 - 00:38:00:02
Unknown
I'm interacting with the world, you know, whatever. Like, it's kind of a narrative thing. I mean, it's weird, but usually at the time, unless you're on kind of a limited jinx that usually at the time you it's quite credible. You're like, okay, I'm in the world. The thing is happening in liminal dreams. It doesn't tend to be usually quite that way.

00:38:00:02 - 00:38:01:05
Unknown
There's often not

00:38:01:05 - 00:38:11:02
Unknown
a self and another there's not like a narrative arc. It's much more like just the moment that's unfolding. So maybe it is one of those

00:38:11:02 - 00:38:17:03
Unknown
Persian rug moment of imagistic unfolding, fast moving,

00:38:17:03 - 00:38:21:21
Unknown
But it's not like it's, it's not like it's me in the world interacting with other characters.

00:38:21:23 - 00:38:53:08
Unknown
It's a very, very different kind of experience. It's actually, in a lot of ways, I find it like, weirder even that, like just because it is such a different thing, it's just kind of the moment that's happened. Yeah, they're definitely more chaotic. I've experienced that and, you know, I could totally understand how like you mentioned, how this has been a practice, you know, in different ways for such a long time, like the legendary painter Salvador Dali, you know, how he used to use his liminal dreams and hypno gaja to create his incredible paintings.

00:38:53:08 - 00:39:17:00
Unknown
So that's something really cool you mentioned. Could you talk briefly about how you can, like, use all this crazy hypnotic content and turn it into something creative? Sure. Yeah. Max And you're right. Salvador Dali and actually Salvador Dali and Thomas Edison, independently of each other, came up with the same exercise for channeling, getting together for creativity,

00:39:17:00 - 00:39:19:18
Unknown
which is now something that they're meeting

00:39:19:18 - 00:39:23:18
Unknown
with a tool called Domino is trying to imitate.

00:39:23:18 - 00:39:46:08
Unknown
But it's very easy to do for anybody at home. And so Salvador Dali and Thomas Edison came up with this exercise independently, each other. So I call it the the Dali Edison exercise. And and basically Dali used this to inspire him. A lot of the ideas for his art came out of him, the idea.

00:39:46:08 - 00:39:51:11
Unknown
Edison used it to come up with ideas for inventions.

00:39:51:13 - 00:40:19:08
Unknown
And so what they would do is each man, when feeling tired, often in the late afternoon, would sit back in like a like a deep, comfy, easy chair and put Edison put two metal plates on the ground. Dali put one. Edison would hold a ball in each hand and Dali would hold. He was very specific. A big brass Spanish key.

00:40:19:08 - 00:40:46:00
Unknown
Edison kept a pen, a pencil, actually, probably pencil and paper next to him. And they kept his sketchpad and they would sit back in the comfy chair and go into a hip and Gottschalk states. And then as soon as they started to pass from getting Adagio into Sleep. So if you remember that shirt, there's like you've got that little space gadget and then you're actually falling asleep.

00:40:46:06 - 00:41:04:06
Unknown
As soon as they would actually fall asleep, they would naturally let go of what they were hand holding the balls or the key, and those would clatter and hit the metal plates. And then Edison would immediately start writing down ideas and Dollywood and immediately start sketching.

00:41:04:06 - 00:41:12:14
Unknown
and so, I mean, I think one of the reasons that gadget is really good for creativity is because you're still like, you're still thinking, right.

00:41:12:17 - 00:41:29:18
Unknown
Your mind is always going and you're up. But when you are in the gadget, your mind is going like different things are happening and a lot of your waking ego, like the stuff that plans, you know, Oh yeah, I have to get this done. I have to call my mother. When you're writing this paper or whatever

00:41:29:18 - 00:41:31:05
Unknown
gets sort of turned off.

00:41:31:09 - 00:41:58:06
Unknown
So you're thinking about things in a really different kind of way. So it's really great for creativity and problem solving. And so you can try this exercise at home and you can actually, I often use a handful of change, just sit back like in a comfy chair with a handful of change, a gently dog toy, you know, whatever it is, like sit back in your easy chair or whatever, holding onto whatever it is, and you can keep pen or pencil next to you.

00:41:58:07 - 00:42:09:13
Unknown
You can also keep a voice activated recorder and make a lot of use of voice activated recorder, keep whatever it is near you, and then as soon as you start to fall asleep, you'll drop the handful of change

00:42:09:13 - 00:42:33:22
Unknown
So just now what I was talking about the four stages of hitting the goggia, which is when I'm giving talks and workshops, I often talk about that and actually that part of a talk I wrote in Goggia using this method and you know, like the benzene ring was conceived and it hit the Gottschalk dream, Louis Agassiz figured out how to chip away stone to find

00:42:33:22 - 00:43:00:00
Unknown
Fossil in the Gottschalk dream. The periodic table was conceived and it hit the Gothic dream. In all these cases it was a problem that somebody had been working on and to solve and had in their head. And then in the hitting the Gothic dream, sort of a different way of thinking about it would kind of jar something loose and the idea would come to the fore.

00:43:00:02 - 00:43:15:05
Unknown
So it's great for coming up with ideas. It's great for problem solving, especially if you've already got what the idea is in your mind. Yeah, that's actually happened to me. I'll always get good ideas as I'm falling asleep and sometimes I wake up to write them down so I don't forget them.

00:43:15:05 - 00:43:18:12
Unknown
So I kind of wanted to circle around to something you mentioned in the beginning,

00:43:18:12 - 00:43:25:20
Unknown
You mentioned that in your early research you attended this a narrow Nautica event. I would love to know what that is.

00:43:25:20 - 00:43:41:12
Unknown
Well, I actually started it and I still do them occasionally, but for a long time I did them every month. And Nautica has a it has to have a name. And the reason was it just was just a thing that I came up with for my friends.

00:43:41:14 - 00:44:01:17
Unknown
And then it was online and there used to be at the early days of the web, there used to be something called StumbleUpon, where they would find cool things on the web and stumble upon found my weird little web site and it turned it into it ended up at the height of it. There were, you know, a few thousand people from all over the world who would who would do this event.

00:44:01:19 - 00:44:33:23
Unknown
And and basically we would do this once a month. And people from around the world, we would decide what Narrogin was going to be an unknown origin is anything that promotes vivid dreaming. Oh narrow is dream engine is is to create like generate right from the Greek and so on. There is anything that creates vivid dreams, a root, an herb, a scent, a sound, a practice, whatever it is, and so on.

00:44:33:23 - 00:44:36:02
Unknown
The same night

00:44:36:02 - 00:44:52:09
Unknown
people, there'd be a group of us who would sleep in the same space to kind of hold down the fort. And and then people from around the world, we would all use the same analogy. So something like Caliente, Zapata, Chichi, which is an herb used by the people of

00:44:52:09 - 00:45:13:13
Unknown
northern Guatemala, sort of southern Mexico or Pensées, which is used by the aforesaid the people of South Africa, where there are a lot there are a lot of wonderful indigenous on our agenda, but also a lot of modern things to things like binaural beats or whatever.

00:45:13:18 - 00:45:44:00
Unknown
So people from around the world would all on the same night use the same on air again, and we would all just so basically it turned into like a worldwide slumber party where we were basically just experimenting with what were the effects that different narratives had on our dreams. And I have a I have if you go to if you go to liminal dreaming, all my websites are kind of like put together like a like a house with a lot of bad additions on it because they're all here and there.

00:45:44:03 - 00:46:08:21
Unknown
But if you go to live in El Dream, CNN.com, you can find the on their site and there's a little database there that talks about like the twelves on engines with which we experimented most often and the different kinds of effects that they have. Yeah, that's really incredible. I love experimenting with on engines. You actually brought up a question for me that I did want to ask you when you mentioned binaural beats, when you were talking about the different brainwave states.

00:46:08:21 - 00:46:18:02
Unknown
I know that binaural beats can train you to enter a certain brainwave state such as like theta or something like that. So does that affect your hypnotizing stage? Does it make it more like

00:46:18:02 - 00:46:29:04
Unknown
vivid or what does that do for the state? Yeah, so that's a good question. It actually reminds me something that I really wanted to talk about, which is EEG.

00:46:29:11 - 00:46:42:08
Unknown
all of these different states have like a specific sign where again, we talked about earlier, when you're talking about brain, you're usually talking about electricity and chemicals.

00:46:42:08 - 00:47:14:09
Unknown
Right. And most of us know that you can recognize a sine wave. Right? So you can see that like a like, you know, like this deep sleep is, you know, the low sine wave like that. Right. One of the interesting things about REM is it actually has the same EEG signature as theta as being awake. You can't just tell from an EEG whether somebody is having a REM dream or not because your brainwaves are doing the same thing.

00:47:14:15 - 00:47:47:07
Unknown
But it still has a distinctive brainwaves. Theta has two different brainwaves, so it's unusual. But pedagogy and hitting hip hop, you actually have six. So we are by far the shortest EEG states that we go through without without training yourself to spend longer. And you can you can train yourself to spend hours in them as I do.

00:47:47:07 - 00:47:49:01
Unknown
you're often in there maybe 5 minutes.

00:47:49:01 - 00:48:11:07
Unknown
Maybe 10 minutes is by far the shortest EEG strip that we go through every 24 hours. But it's also the most chaotic. It actually has six brain waves, six brain signatures in it. So it's very, very, very chaotic. And when you know, when your arm jerks or your leg jerks, that's how you know you're going to hit the gods yet.

00:48:11:09 - 00:48:36:09
Unknown
And your body is kind of doing the same thing as your mind. Right. Is kind of going into this this chaotic mode. And you talked earlier about surfing and the there's a model I really like is if you think about a pretty, pretty common images for the conscious mind is like land as conscious mind and ocean is like unconscious mind.

00:48:36:11 - 00:49:11:21
Unknown
And where the the ocean meets the land is where it's really chaotic, it's where there's all the waves and that's where I can surf. So I really like to think about Liminal Dream, where it was kind of surfing consciousness. So the the way that natural beats work is that you, if you have a frequency and one ear and a different frequency and the other ear, your brain will try to to bring them together in one particular brainwave State Right.

00:49:11:21 - 00:49:39:04
Unknown
So let's say, for example, you wanted to get more deep sleep. Let's say that you're using body aural beats because you don't think you're getting enough deep sleep. Then you could put like a frequency of 100 hertz in one ear and then you could put a frequency of like 101 hertz and the other ear, and then you're the two.

00:49:39:05 - 00:50:04:17
Unknown
So you've got the two different frequencies coming in and your brain will try to find the difference, right? So that like that one, you know, one second that one hertz, which is deep sleep, your brain will try to go there. So the way that beats work is out there trying to get your brainwaves to regulate at a particular frequency.

00:50:04:19 - 00:50:35:02
Unknown
And so by now, bass can be really useful for things where it's pretty clear that the brain waves is what's is making a big difference. So if you're trying to work specifically with REM dreams at night, if you're trying to work with deep sleep, even if you're trying to work with him and Goggia because the binary bass will just keep changing what the frequency is to keep your to keep it at like a kind of a chaotic state.

00:50:35:08 - 00:50:56:20
Unknown
So but all beats work well for kinds of things. The things that binary beats don't necessarily work as well for. And you'll often see them advertised, you know, like they'll say, Oh, this one is the orgasm, but I'll be or this one is the you know, this one is the LSD, but oral-b or whatever it is like those things.

00:50:56:22 - 00:51:12:09
Unknown
I don't quite as much because it's because it's not, it's actually not how the but I'll be taught the final bits are very much about what the EEG signature is. Yeah. Makes sense. You know, people just do things for clickbait, but it's good to understand like what it does

00:51:12:09 - 00:51:17:21
Unknown
just want to jump in a little bit of give a little bit of a moment to hip and pop. Yeah.

00:51:17:21 - 00:51:31:13
Unknown
We've been talking a lot about hitting the gotcha and hitting a gotcha is again, it's it's a very easy dream state to work with because we all go through it, you know, naturally it happens to all of us hip hop.

00:51:31:15 - 00:51:56:14
Unknown
Yeah. Is tends to be a little bit more the realm of owls or people who are sleeping in. But it's an amazing mind state as well. And if you're interested in trying to work with PET, the popular thing to do is set aside a morning when you can really sleep and

00:51:56:14 - 00:52:04:03
Unknown
try to eject anybody else who sits with you, be it a human friend or an animal friend.

00:52:04:05 - 00:52:07:18
Unknown
You know, from the room. Try to like sleep alone for the night.

00:52:07:18 - 00:52:09:04
Unknown
go to sleep,

00:52:09:04 - 00:52:34:24
Unknown
wake up in the morning and try to wake up as slowly as possible, you know, like wake up, you know, you know, as soon as you start to drift awake, you know, try to be aware of like breathing out, letting your energy, you know, go out from the body and go back into the sleep states.

00:52:35:01 - 00:52:38:06
Unknown
And hip hop is actually my favorite

00:52:38:06 - 00:53:00:06
Unknown
mindstate. I love hip hop. Mia. It's wonderful and delicious. It's also a great way to both remember dreams. If you try to work with remembering REM dreams. And also there are a lot of Lisa dream practices that work with hip hop. Yeah, you probably sleep most of the time in one of three or four different postures.

00:53:00:08 - 00:53:06:18
Unknown
You know, I tend to sleep on my side, curled with a fist on my forehead and a hand between my knees.

00:53:06:18 - 00:53:32:08
Unknown
If you're trying to work with with remember the dreams you've had at night, you're trying to work with lucid dreaming or just working with dreaming in general. A great practices. Think about what physical positions you norm in which you normally sleep, but identify those and then in the morning when you waking up, try to stay and get happier.

00:53:32:10 - 00:54:02:16
Unknown
You know, do that like slow wake up and then try to move into one of your sleep positions, see what you can remember, and then try to switch to one of the other ones slowly. And I also like sleep on my back with my arms above my head. And as anybody who has a physical practice like would be at yoga or a sport or whatever, knows the body has memory, right.

00:54:02:16 - 00:54:30:15
Unknown
Your body will remember things that your mind doesn't necessarily like playing piano. You're learning to get your mind out of the way and actually just have it be like this feedback loop between hands and music and whatever. So remembering dreams can be the same way you know, if you get your body into the same position and then try to sink back into the sleep stage with hitting the part, yeah, you may find that that's a great way to remember Dreams from the Night.

00:54:30:19 - 00:54:46:04
Unknown
Yeah, that's incredible advice. Honestly, I'm so excited to share this with my listeners because, yeah, it's I talk a lot about lucid dreaming, but this is something that everybody can do every day. So I really appreciate that. You mentioned your website is Liminal Dreaming dotcom.

00:54:46:04 - 00:55:05:24
Unknown
Urban Dreamscape dot com is also a great place to go. So. Well, thank you so much for talking to me. It was a pleasure just learning from you. Your books and your talks have inspired me a lot, so I'm grateful for all that you do. Thank you very. Hi. She's so cute. Oh, that's so cute. I wonder if she has cool dreams, too.

00:55:06:01 - 00:55:10:02
Unknown
I see her. I see her twitching in her little dream states. Oh,

00:55:10:02 - 00:55:12:23
Unknown
Thank you. Bye bye.


What is hypnapompioa?
EEG States
Circadian rhythm
Are you an Owl or a Lark?
Sleep paralysis: How to avoid it and how to embrace it.
Phases of sleep
Liminal Vs REM dreams
How to use hypnagogia for creativity: Dali-Edison Method
Oneirogen dream enhancement
How do binaural beats work?
Hypnopompia