The Dream World

EP41: Nightmares & Sleep Paralysis

June 16, 2023 Amina Feat. Ryan Hurd Season 2 Episode 10
The Dream World
EP41: Nightmares & Sleep Paralysis
The Dream World
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Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Dealing with nightmares & sleep paralysis takes a strong mind and some psychic self-defense. Know that you are in control, so you can claim your power, and explore consciousness safely. 
 
My guest in this episode is Ryan Hurd, educator, author and dream researcher.. Ryan holds a MA in Consciousness Studies and a Certificate of Dream Studies. He also has a BA degree specializing in archaeology. He is widely interested in consciousness studies at the intersections of ecology, culture and spirituality. His latest work is Lucid Talisman: Forgotten Lore. Ryan has been featured on NPR, CNN, Coast to Coast, Psychology Today, and many more. With a background in both archaeology and dream research, Ryan teaches graduate level courses at University for Peace in Costa Rica and National University in California.

Forgotten Lore Book with Lucid Talisman
Sleep Paralysis: A Guide to Hypnagogic Visions and Visitors of the Night
Website:  DreamStudies.org

Topics:

What are some of the reasons we experience nightmares
How can lucid dreaming be a cure for nightmares
In what ways can we use nightmares for our benefit and approach them as healing gifts?
Dreams of teeth falling out
What is sleep paralysis?
How to wake up from sleep paralysis
How to induce sleep paralysis
SSILD (senses induced lucid dream)
How to define OBEs (Out of Body Experience)
Dreaming of inebriation
Encountering entities and protecting your energy
Psychic self-defense
The vibrational State
Ryan's Buffalo dream

Other books mentioned in this episode
The Phase Michael Raduga

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Lucid Dreaming Online Course

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good.
Yeah. Well, it's good to be here. So.

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So I'm Ryan Hurd,
and I'm the author of a number of books

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dreams and consciousness and nightmares,
including sleep paralysis.

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You even have that one here.

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Paralysis.

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Now, in its second edition, most recently,
the author of Lucid Talisman

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Forgotten Law, which is a book
about how to use dream Amulet

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with your dream practice
and your lucid dreaming practice.

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And I make amulets as well.

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And I've also, you know, done
some scholarly work as well.

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And it was the coeditor with Kelly
Bulkeley of the collection Lucid Dreaming

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New Perspectives of Consciousness
in Sleep, which came out in 2014.

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It was a two volume
set, 30 essays, different, researchers

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and dream workers and enthusiasts
talking about their different perspectives

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of lucid dreaming.

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That was really fun to put together.

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I'm still, when I opened that book
up, read the chapters.

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I'm still learning from that collection
that we put together almost ten years ago.

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So I'm a dream Educate her,
and I teach at a couple of universities

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as an adjunct, teaching
about the psychology of dreams

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and I also teach with my Dream Studies
Academy, which you can find at dream

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studies dot org, which is sort of my
my blog and web home base

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for all of my books and projects
and things of that nature.

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that's why I started this podcast,

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was to just keep the conversation going
and teach people about it and stuff.

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And one thing that I noticed a lot is
that people are scared to get into it

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because they don't want to have nightmares
or sleep paralysis and things like that.

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So I think it's really important
to talk about, you know,

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not just all the fun stuff
you can do with framework, but how to deal

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with the serious stuff,
you know, and use it to your advantage

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in what can somebody do if, like,
maybe they're not like an experienced,

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lucid dreamer,
but they have a lot of nightmares,

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so much
that they're like scared to go to sleep,

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You know,
I know there's a lot of different reasons

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as to why people have nightmares, like,
what are the general reasons and things

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we can do to like, you know, overcome,
recurring and consistent nightmares?

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Yeah, a lot of people suffer
from from nightmares.

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And of course, it is a spectrum of,
how intense people suffer from it.

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more even more complicated
because nightmares can be a symptom

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for a lot of different health ailments
as well as mental health ailments.

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you know, the rule of thumb,
I say for folks is that if you're

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suffering from nightmares
more than 2 to 3 times a week,

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that it's worth
talking with a doctor about,

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probably could get a referral
you might qualify as a nightmare disorder,

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which, you know, is covered by insurance
and things like that.

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And there's there's definitely
therapeutic recommendations for that.

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for for that level of intensity
as well as PTSD, dreaming those folks

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suffer the most.

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also we have nightmares

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and it's just part
of, I'd say, the dreaming fabric of life.

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I, you know,
always have had some nightmares myself.

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I think I probably had one
maybe three weeks ago.

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when I say nightmare,
I mean, it was a, bad dream

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in which I was sufficiently creeped out
that I woke up.

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And what's interesting is,

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is that the definition of nightmare
has changed over the years,

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where the criteria of waking up
is no longer needed

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so people can suffer from bad dreams
and not have their sleep disturbed,

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and it can still be considered
a nightmare.

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So. So some of the things have changed
in the literature about that.

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And the main thing is it's like,
how does it impact you?

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How does it feel?

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Does it affect your waking life?

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Does it affect your social life,
you know, and other aspects of your life?

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besides all of the sort of symptomatic
and covariance

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that happens with nightmares, there are
things that we can do in our waking life

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to cleanse the way and make it so
we suffer less and even have less of them.

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And they're all stuff
that you might expect that comes out of a

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really a somatic perspective
of like a more holistic claim,

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thinking that nightmares
and dreams in general are just mental,

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but there are bodies expressing themselves
and as such,

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like how can we, you know, pay
attention to what our bodies are saying?

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so folks, sometimes notice

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that when they reduce alcohol consumption

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or caffeine consumption,
that nightmares can be lessened.

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So people who have diets
that often cause indigestion

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notice that if they switch their diets up
so they're not in distress

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in the middle of the night,
that there can be less nightmares.

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And in general,
I'd say the big way to look at it

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is is how to decrease anxiety

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and increase mindfulness
in in a waking life.

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And so looking at it as a life practice
and so going to bed

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not anxious and moving into
maybe even a relaxation response

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before going to sleep

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is probably one of the single
greatest things that you can do on a like

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a nightly level, on a practice level,
to have a better night's

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sleep, you'll have like less awakenings,
you'll have more pleasant dreams.

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You just basically
you create the conditions

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for relaxation before cocking out
and think of sleep

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as a slow ramp
rather than on on an off switch.

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So when we give ourselves that time
in that respect to go to sleep mindfully,

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increase out that little bit of relaxation
before sleep.

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Everything goes better.

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I can see from my own experience
that my dreams reflect

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my mental state and my physical state
and everything combined, you know?

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And like you said,
I have nightmares every once in a while.

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But one thing they also do for me
when I have a nightmare

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something realistic, but, you know, like
somebody dying or something like that,

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I wake up very thankful.

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You know, it gives me that sense of like,
Wow, I'm so glad.

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That was just a dream.

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And that's something that
I've kind of adopted over the years.

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And I know you're big into lucid dreaming,
too, it's kind of a cure for nightmares

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essentially, right?

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Yeah. Yeah.

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For me,
lucid dreaming and nightmares were kind of

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came as a package deal.

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Yeah.

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When I was a teenager I began
have you know, going lucid

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essentially in my nightmares
and and it was

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it was very powerful the first time
I stood up to a nightmare figure

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and and basically just stood my ground
and just was like, you know, no.

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And when I did that, everything changed,

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There was this particular
figure was a seething, like a Octopussy

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kind of creepy thing,
kind of coming out of the TV set.

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And as soon as I said no to it,
it just shrunk back and went away.

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And I woke up from that
with this feeling of exhilaration,

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this feeling of, yeah, I'm just like,
oh, I can I can do this.

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I felt my power basically for
the first time in a real in a real way.

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And that has helped me and move me
through a process over

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the next decade of working
with my nightmares, working with my

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as they came, I didn't suffer too much,
but but when they came, it was impactful.

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Right?

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And it did affect me in lucid dreaming,
becoming aware that this was a nightmare

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really helped me to listen better
to the dream, to draw my own boundaries.

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In the dream, and to sort of shift
my perspective and make different choices,

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to see yeah, to widen the circle, I guess
you could say, of what could happen next.

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that work went on for a really long time.

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And but it wasn't really
until I found a community of Dreamers

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in my late twenties and started working,

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doing dream work in a pretty serious way

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that I really found a way of moving past.

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Some of that was the negativity
that was coming out of my dream life.

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And at the same time I was picking up
spiritual practices.

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I was taking care of myself
better in a lot of different ways.

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It all kind of kind of clicked into place.

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But having a community of dreamers
around me was a big piece of that.

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that's what I love about talking about
dreams, right, is because

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the more we talk about them
and share our dreams with each other,

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the more we're providing that safety net
for for everyone.

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Yeah, that's so true.

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I mean, that's
why I do what I do is to normalize it

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and to help people feel like,
you know, you're not crazy.

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nightmares can be healing gifts sometimes.

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You know, once we learn to figure out

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what they're telling us
and that kind of stuff.

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So in those cases, in what kind of ways
can we use nightmares to like, you know,

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actually for our benefit instead of
like allowing the fear to overcome us?

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love the practical side of nightmare
where a lot of folks

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start with this perspective that, oh,
nightmares are going to show me my trauma,

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for instance, or some terrible childhood
childhood thing that I've forgotten.

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And it's really not the case
most of the time.

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Often it's just our own fear getting in
the way of some new truth coming through.

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newness is challenging to our worldview

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in when we're in a fearful place, which is
very typical for dream states, right?

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Because REM dreaming
is a place of high emotionality.

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it's really easy

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to get freaked out in a dream into
just like almost spiral into something.

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you know, here's an example I would say
this is a nightmare, but, you know,

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the dream of your teeth
falling out is pretty nightmarish.

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It's probably one of the most common
dream themes in the world.

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People interpret, interpret
it all kinds of different ways.

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but for me, what I've discovered is,
is that when I have the dream

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about my teeth falling out,
it also means that I'm probably

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grinding my teeth in my sleep
because I have bruxism.

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All right.

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And that's just kind of kind of comes
along with my general high anxiety.

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That's just part of me being me.

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And so the bruxism shows up
when I'm in an anxious place in general,

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and when I have the final dream,
it means I'm probably clamping my jaw.

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And so what I've determined is, is
most of the time when this has happened,

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my caffeine habit has probably escalated
too much because I do a thing.

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I have this game with coffee
where I love coffee and then I drink it,

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and then before you know it,
I'm drinking four cups a day

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and then before you know it, then,
you know,

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caffeine has these effects when you start
really kind of escalating, right?

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And so when I have the teeth
falling out dream, I say, Oh,

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time to knock back my coffee habit.

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And I go on a cleanse and I switch back
to green tea and I just level it all out.

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So that's just an example
of how a creepy dream

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or a nightmare and essentially
be the body expressing itself.

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And we just have to listen
and know what to do.

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And it takes some time
to figure out our tells.

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Right.

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But but if we're paying attention
to our dreams

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and we're writing them down,
we begin to notice these kind of patterns.

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Yeah, that's such a good example of like
finding what it means to you, you know,

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because that could be the case
with a lot of people

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and I stress all the time, like there's
so many interpretations.

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It's not universal.

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Like it could mean one thing to one person
and one thing to another person,

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you know?

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What about sleep paralysis?

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A lot of people are put off to dream work
and in my case, lucid dreaming,

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you know, that's what I focus on.

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A lot of people tell me like, Oh,
I'm scared of sleep paralysis.

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I don't want to go there.

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That's bad. Whatever.

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So what are your thoughts on that?

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Like maybe what is sleep paralysis?

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Let's start there. right.

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And I've heard
a lot of these comments too.

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And so so awareness of sleep
paralysis is basically awareness

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of this natural phenomena
that happens every night

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while we are dreaming
and while we're in REM sleep.

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And we usually don't notice it
when we're in a dream.

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But when we're in a dream,
our body is essentially paralyzed.

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Our large skeletal muscles are not active.

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And, you know,

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there's some thought that this has to do
with the evolution of the species,

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and perhaps it prevents us from thrashing
about and acting out our dreams,

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which could be dangerous.

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which kind of shows how dreams are
must be important enough in function

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that we would take that risk
in a survival perspective.

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Right?

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Like if we're going to immobilize
ourselves and essentially be vulnerable

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to predators for long enough
to have this cool psychedelic experience

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where we download new perspectives

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and and just see things
in a different way,

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it must be worth something
in order to take that risk.

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So anyway, that's the aside for us.

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So that's what, you know, that's what
sleep processes and REM and REM sleep.

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but when we are aware of it, it's
sort of like a hiccup.

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as Jennifer
Perry was saying just the other day

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and your podcast about liminal dreaming,
it's sort of like a both

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and you're in between states, you're awake
and you're asleep.

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And so it's sleep paralysis,
the mind is awake, and yet

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the body is still, quote unquote asleep
and the paralysis is still happening.

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And so someone in sleep
paralysis will feel the inability to move.

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And we only know it when we try, Right.

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And so when someone tries to move,

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you're laying in your bed,
you've just woken up from a dream.

00;13;14;17 - 00;13;17;25
Perhaps you try to move,
you realized you can't move.

00;13;17;25 - 00;13;21;10
And when you try to move,
it feels like a pressure comes down

00;13;22;06 - 00;13;25;14
and that's the resistance
essentially of the muscles

00;13;25;14 - 00;13;28;23
to your to your mind making commands.

00;13;28;29 - 00;13;33;25
And because we're in a REM state still,
but with our eyes open,

00;13;33;28 - 00;13;37;19
sometimes we spiral into emotion
very quickly.

00;13;38;00 - 00;13;41;12
And so it becomes we become fearful
and it becomes

00;13;41;12 - 00;13;44;12
very fill for very fearful very quickly.

00;13;44;20 - 00;13;47;12
And then this is where it becomes sort of,

00;13;47;12 - 00;13;52;10
I would say supernaturally interesting is,
is that we begin to project

00;13;52;25 - 00;13;55;27
our visions into the waking world

00;13;55;27 - 00;13;59;18
and kind of like a hybrid waking world
dream state.

00;13;59;21 - 00;14;04;15
And so people see creatures and entities

00;14;04;19 - 00;14;10;07
in some cases and this is very, very few
there's the actual the, the actual effect

00;14;10;07 - 00;14;15;24
of feeling like the creature itself
is responsible for the oppression.

00;14;15;29 - 00;14;19;10
And so this has been known
around the world as supernatural assault.

00;14;19;10 - 00;14;23;05
And there's lots of supernatural assault
traditions all over the world

00;14;23;05 - 00;14;24;19
And throughout history.

00;14;24;19 - 00;14;27;22
People interpreted these things
in all kinds of different ways,

00;14;28;09 - 00;14;31;05
and people don't all see the same things
despite what you might

00;14;31;05 - 00;14;34;10
hear, there's,
you know, that man does not exist.

00;14;34;10 - 00;14;40;00
And all cross-culturally, for example,
or alien, you know, alien grays,

00;14;40;03 - 00;14;44;25
there really are people see different
kind of culturally imbued figures.

00;14;44;25 - 00;14;49;10
And so there's this cool kind
of co-creative aspect where culture

00;14;49;22 - 00;14;54;06
and expectation
play a role with these with these figures.

00;14;54;17 - 00;14;57;09
this can be quite terrifying
because what it feels like can see

00;14;57;09 - 00;15;01;00
paralysis is it feels like
this is real life.

00;15;01;00 - 00;15;05;29
I feel like I'm awake and yet
I'm having this visionary experience

00;15;05;29 - 00;15;09;21
and perhaps
even this otherworldly experience.

00;15;09;25 - 00;15;12;06
And they great into dreams sometimes.

00;15;12;06 - 00;15;15;06
And so you can have a contact with, say,

00;15;15;17 - 00;15;19;06
you know, an entity
who can even molest the dreamer.

00;15;19;13 - 00;15;20;13
these don't happen a lot.

00;15;20;13 - 00;15;23;13
But when they do happen,
they're quite impactful for folks.

00;15;23;19 - 00;15;27;17
And then they can go into an abduction
narrative,

00;15;27;17 - 00;15;32;03
essentially where they're taken aboard
someplace or taken to another realm.

00;15;32;14 - 00;15;33;28
They can't escape from it.

00;15;33;28 - 00;15;37;13
You know, the alien abduction
narrative and sleep paralysis.

00;15;37;13 - 00;15;40;04
They really they come together here.

00;15;40;04 - 00;15;43;19
And if you look throughout history,
we see that fairy lore

00;15;44;04 - 00;15;47;14
and El Flora talks
about the same phenomena,

00;15;47;14 - 00;15;50;25
but they blame elves and fairies
and goblins

00;15;50;25 - 00;15;54;08
instead of aliens
for taking us to these different realms.

00;15;54;25 - 00;15;57;10
And so there's this really cool,
multidimensional

00;15;57;10 - 00;16;00;25
aspect to sleep paralysis
that I think is is fascinating.

00;16;01;07 - 00;16;02;19
But at the end of the day,

00;16;02;19 - 00;16;06;13
if it's harmless, we're not getting harmed
by these experiences.

00;16;06;13 - 00;16;08;00
They're still dreams.

00;16;08;00 - 00;16;09;26
We wake up from them shaken.

00;16;09;26 - 00;16;12;22
And so they're impactful,
and B negatively.

00;16;12;22 - 00;16;15;22
But they also can change our worldview.

00;16;15;22 - 00;16;18;22
And so it can change our worldview
of what's possible.

00;16;18;28 - 00;16;22;21
What is this world where I can contact
multidimensional others

00;16;22;21 - 00;16;24;24
that come into my space?

00;16;24;24 - 00;16;27;28
And of course, some sleep
paralysis encounters can be positive.

00;16;28;01 - 00;16;29;23
And even orgasmic, right?

00;16;29;23 - 00;16;33;10
And so so there's a lot
that can happen within that space.

00;16;33;15 - 00;16;34;26
Yeah, that's so true.

00;16;34;26 - 00;16;35;05
You know,

00;16;35;05 - 00;16;37;06
I'm thinking back to all my sleep
paralysis

00;16;37;06 - 00;16;39;15
and I've had a lot
I've had good ones, bad ones

00;16;39;15 - 00;16;41;06
I used to get sleep paralysis
all the time.

00;16;41;06 - 00;16;42;26
do you have any entity you show up.

00;16;42;26 - 00;16;44;25
Are there any favorites or.

00;16;44;25 - 00;16;48;09
Yeah I've had funny ones like you know,
sometimes I'll get like

00;16;48;17 - 00;16;51;17
usually mine are more like auditory,
not so much visual.

00;16;51;22 - 00;16;55;18
If it's visual, it'll be like my cat
and my, my pets and things and, you know,

00;16;55;18 - 00;16;57;23
people walking in and out
that aren't really there.

00;16;57;23 - 00;17;01;11
But in terms of like entity type things,
they had like the Scary Demon voice

00;17;01;11 - 00;17;02;21
one time and I was freaked out.

00;17;02;21 - 00;17;04;12
I hate scary voices, you know?

00;17;04;12 - 00;17;07;06
And I got like this whole vibrating,
shaking sensation.

00;17;07;06 - 00;17;09;29
It was very weird,
but it was a scary demon voice.

00;17;09;29 - 00;17;12;14
But he was saying nice things to me.
He was like, You're doing great.

00;17;12;14 - 00;17;13;05
You're awesome.

00;17;13;05 - 00;17;14;21
So it's like, Oh, okay.

00;17;14;21 - 00;17;16;10
Things that kind of threw me off

00;17;16;10 - 00;17;19;21
sometimes I usually try to stay in there
and explore and stuff, but sometimes,

00;17;19;21 - 00;17;22;21
you know, if I'm just like, overwhelmed,
I'll just try to wake myself up.

00;17;22;24 - 00;17;23;19
And that's really it.

00;17;23;19 - 00;17;26;07
And, you know, and for anyone
who gets into lucid dreaming,

00;17;26;07 - 00;17;28;14
you know, there's always this dreamer's
choice aspect.

00;17;28;14 - 00;17;31;06
It's like you can wake yourself up
from this.

00;17;31;06 - 00;17;33;26
There are tactics to wake yourself up
from it.

00;17;33;26 - 00;17;36;24
Breaking
the paralysis is actually pretty easy.

00;17;36;24 - 00;17;38;08
Once you know what to do.

00;17;38;08 - 00;17;41;29
You know, I recommend people
like just try scrunching their face

00;17;41;29 - 00;17;44;16
and make making a face
because you can break the paralysis

00;17;44;16 - 00;17;47;24
very quickly
or trying to wave your fingers or toes.

00;17;47;28 - 00;17;51;06
That breaks the paralysis
for the rest of the rest of the body.

00;17;51;17 - 00;17;55;00
And so, yeah, I'm the same way
sometimes I'm just like not in a mood

00;17;55;07 - 00;17;57;24
and I'm like,
I don't have time for demons or whatever.

00;17;57;24 - 00;17;58;06
Today.

00;17;58;06 - 00;18;01;16
It's like, I'm just not ready for that.

00;18;01;16 - 00;18;06;15
And so I just I wake up, you know, go, I
get out of bed is splash water on my face

00;18;07;01 - 00;18;09;16
created just a little bit of distance,

00;18;09;16 - 00;18;12;06
maybe listen to a song,

00;18;12;06 - 00;18;15;03
you know, or,
you know, watch something that helps me

00;18;15;03 - 00;18;18;03
feel relaxed and then I go back to sleep
and it's no big deal.

00;18;18;04 - 00;18;19;17
Other times I'm ready for it.

00;18;19;17 - 00;18;23;16
And and I use it as a springboard
into lucid dreaming, into out-of-body.

00;18;23;25 - 00;18;26;27
And that's really the kind of the gift
of sleep paralysis, right?

00;18;26;29 - 00;18;29;28
it's been described
as getting stuck in the threshold.

00;18;29;28 - 00;18;32;23
I love that metaphor
because beyond the threshold is

00;18;32;23 - 00;18;36;02
is this whole nother world
or really worlds.

00;18;36;05 - 00;18;40;03
yes, the process is creepy at first,
but but it's easy to get over it.

00;18;40;03 - 00;18;41;13
It's worth it. Yeah, I agree.

00;18;41;13 - 00;18;43;01
You know, I tell people that, like, once

00;18;43;01 - 00;18;45;18
you learn to embrace it
and you learn, number one, it's normal.

00;18;45;18 - 00;18;46;26
You're nothing's going to happen to you.

00;18;46;26 - 00;18;48;16
You're going to wake up, you'll be fine.

00;18;48;16 - 00;18;50;24
Even if you see scary demons or whatever.

00;18;50;24 - 00;18;53;24
You know, you can, like you said,
turn it into a lucid dream.

00;18;54;02 - 00;18;56;23
So then you get to that point
eventually where you're like, I'm excited

00;18;56;23 - 00;18;59;22
for sleep paralysis. I Want it?
You know, I'm not scared anymore.

00;18;59;22 - 00;19;01;11
You know, I got to that point, though.

00;19;01;11 - 00;19;04;05
You talked about some ways
of how to wake up and avoid it, you know,

00;19;04;05 - 00;19;07;07
wiggling your fingers, breathing,
whatever, and not trying to fight it.

00;19;07;09 - 00;19;08;08
I've noticed.

00;19;08;08 - 00;19;10;23
But what about some ways of like
how to induce it?

00;19;10;23 - 00;19;12;17
Like,
how do I make it happen? At this point?

00;19;12;17 - 00;19;14;23
I'm ready and I want to experience it.

00;19;14;23 - 00;19;18;13
so it basically works a lot like a sleep

00;19;18;13 - 00;19;22;02
interruption, lucid dreaming activity.

00;19;22;02 - 00;19;25;16
So awake back to bed type situation.

00;19;25;16 - 00;19;27;04
Intentionality is key.

00;19;27;04 - 00;19;31;13
But but also we know that sleep
paralysis is more likely to be

00;19;31;14 - 00;19;32;26
had if you're sleeping on her back.

00;19;32;26 - 00;19;37;06
For most people, some people feel it more
when they get when they have an elevated

00;19;37;11 - 00;19;38;07
sleeping posture.

00;19;38;07 - 00;19;40;03
So like a pillow under your back

00;19;40;03 - 00;19;43;10
this comes out of that out-of-body
experience literature to right.

00;19;43;10 - 00;19;45;16
It's just kind of coming at it
from a different angle

00;19;45;16 - 00;19;49;20
because what you're really trying to do
is a long gait, essentially your stage

00;19;49;20 - 00;19;54;25
one sleep or light trance long enough
to stay self aware in the moment.

00;19;54;25 - 00;19;58;09
And then sometimes
REM will kick in at that point.

00;19;58;12 - 00;20;02;10
And so then the second
half of the night, REM is more likely.

00;20;02;22 - 00;20;05;20
Some people get sleep paralysis
more in the beginning of the night.

00;20;05;20 - 00;20;07;10
Some people get it more towards
the end of the night.

00;20;07;10 - 00;20;10;11
I'm more of a like 5 a.m.

00;20;10;17 - 00;20;12;23
kind of sleep paralysis person.

00;20;12;23 - 00;20;16;27
And so which is typical because REM,
there's lots of REM at that time.

00;20;16;27 - 00;20;20;01
So if you stage it like awake back to bed
experience

00;20;20;01 - 00;20;23;01
of the second half of the night
you give yourself

00;20;23;14 - 00;20;27;05
this ability to, to lay on your back
and essentially

00;20;27;05 - 00;20;30;09
just watch the hip, close your eyes,
watch the hip and goggia.

00;20;30;09 - 00;20;33;12
And one thing that I've done to induce it
before

00;20;33;20 - 00;20;36;20
is this I focus on my ears,

00;20;36;26 - 00;20;42;12
and so I'll on just the pressure
in my ears and I'll just kind of wait.

00;20;42;12 - 00;20;44;17
And what will happen
is, is that there will be sort of this

00;20;44;17 - 00;20;48;06
rushing noise that comes out literally,
and it's sometimes

00;20;48;06 - 00;20;51;17
it just passes through very quickly
and then it'll make another pass.

00;20;51;17 - 00;20;53;02
It'll be longer.

00;20;53;02 - 00;20;56;14
And it kind of makes
this like sound like static

00;20;57;02 - 00;20;59;07
and then it makes a third pass
and it's even longer.

00;20;59;07 - 00;21;01;00
And until I can stay in it

00;21;01;00 - 00;21;04;19
and basically this is what's called
also the vibrational state.

00;21;04;19 - 00;21;08;12
And so you're entering into sleep
paralysis by using your kinesthetic,

00;21;08;14 - 00;21;10;03
your inner ear. you can catch it.

00;21;10;03 - 00;21;12;22
It takes a little bit of practice,
but you can catch it.

00;21;12;22 - 00;21;14;05
And it's very reliable.

00;21;14;05 - 00;21;17;28
And, you know, it's
just noticing that this the senses induced

00;21;17;28 - 00;21;22;13
lucid dreaming tactic that is kind of
came out of nowhere a few years ago.

00;21;22;13 - 00;21;25;06
And people are having
a lot of good experiences with it.

00;21;25;06 - 00;21;28;06
It uses the same kind of notion where

00;21;28;19 - 00;21;32;25
but with the senses induce lucid dreaming,
you're doing kinesthetic listening

00;21;33;06 - 00;21;35;28
and then you're noticing
what's happening with your vision,

00;21;35;28 - 00;21;38;21
and then you're noticing
what's happening with your body sensations

00;21;38;21 - 00;21;41;20
and you're cycling
through these different modalities.

00;21;41;20 - 00;21;47;16
And so that can also essentially induce
lucid dreaming slash sleep paralysis.

00;21;47;19 - 00;21;48;15
And you'll feel it.

00;21;48;15 - 00;21;52;07
It comes on
sometimes like a wind, or rushing noise.

00;21;52;10 - 00;21;54;05
know, if you try to move, you can't move.

00;21;54;05 - 00;21;55;07
You're like, Oh, I'm here.

00;21;55;07 - 00;21;55;29
I got it.

00;21;55;29 - 00;21;58;29
You know, it's an even for me, right? Who?

00;21;59;03 - 00;22;00;19
You wrote the book on it.

00;22;00;19 - 00;22;04;19
I still have to sometimes calm myself down
that like this is normal.

00;22;04;19 - 00;22;08;15
And because I'll go into sort
of an automatic negative expectation

00;22;08;21 - 00;22;10;05
like, oh, demons.

00;22;10;05 - 00;22;13;11
And so I'll remind myself,
this is sleep paralysis.

00;22;13;14 - 00;22;16;05
What's my intention? Oh, yeah,
I'm going to have an out of body.

00;22;16;05 - 00;22;20;28
And so I'll focus my energy
on shifting down into the mattress or out

00;22;20;28 - 00;22;25;00
or, you know,
however I'd like to go, it's effective.

00;22;25;00 - 00;22;27;09
It works. Yeah. You always get a pep
talk yourself.

00;22;27;09 - 00;22;30;12
Even the most experienced
and professional travelers.

00;22;30;12 - 00;22;33;21
You know, we saw ourselves like,
Yo, you're good or whatever.

00;22;33;21 - 00;22;36;26
But you mentioned out-of-body experiences,
and I wanted to ask you about that

00;22;36;26 - 00;22;40;12
because, I'm sure the lines blur
in terms of defining everything, but

00;22;41;04 - 00;22;44;15
do all of these fall under the umbrella
of out-of-body experience,

00;22;44;15 - 00;22;45;19
or how do you define that?

00;22;45;19 - 00;22;49;07
Is that different than like lucid dreams,
sleep paralysis, astral projection?

00;22;49;22 - 00;22;51;08
What do you think about that?

00;22;51;08 - 00;22;54;17
Yeah, there's a lot of terminology
and they come out of different traditions,

00;22;54;17 - 00;22;54;28
right?

00;22;54;28 - 00;22;56;16
And so it's like the out-of-body

00;22;56;16 - 00;22;58;21
experience
tends to come out of the transfer business

00;22;58;21 - 00;23;02;19
psychology
traditions of Charles Tart, right.

00;23;02;20 - 00;23;05;14
All four states of consciousness
out of the sixties and seventies,

00;23;05;14 - 00;23;07;27
astral projection
comes out of spiritualism.

00;23;07;27 - 00;23;10;12
I believe the spiritualist movements.

00;23;10;12 - 00;23;13;11
Then you've got things
like the phase right

00;23;13;11 - 00;23;16;19
is coming out of do guys
work in in Russia.

00;23;17;07 - 00;23;20;07
So there's so many interesting ways
of looking at it.

00;23;20;10 - 00;23;24;19
the thing about out-of-body experience
as a concept is, is that

00;23;24;21 - 00;23;29;12
I'm not saying this is what it is like,
this is ontologically you're

00;23;29;12 - 00;23;33;21
necessarily really going out of body
and what it feels like.

00;23;33;24 - 00;23;36;22
What we experience is a separation

00;23;36;22 - 00;23;39;27
from our sleeping sense of self.

00;23;39;27 - 00;23;43;09
And so there's a bifurcation of self
from our,

00;23;43;09 - 00;23;47;12
I would say our ego core or we're,
you know, sort of the right

00;23;47;13 - 00;23;53;17
the node from which we we centralize
and experience consciousness and our sense

00;23;53;17 - 00;23;58;13
body in our body no longer is essentially

00;23;59;01 - 00;24;02;10
a to us in our in our consciousness.

00;24;02;24 - 00;24;06;07
And sometimes we just feel that
and sometimes it's visual.

00;24;06;11 - 00;24;10;01
but for most of the time
when people, quote unquote go out of body,

00;24;10;09 - 00;24;13;17
it's more of a sensual feeling of movement

00;24;13;19 - 00;24;16;18
moving into different sorts of spaces.

00;24;17;01 - 00;24;20;06
And it can be dark spaces, void
like spaces.

00;24;20;06 - 00;24;22;18
It can be very
it can be very trippy, right?

00;24;22;18 - 00;24;25;28
It can be lots of abstract geometric
going on.

00;24;26;01 - 00;24;27;25
It's there's
so many individual differences here.

00;24;27;25 - 00;24;32;20
It could be like a world of language
thought, like the Matrix almost, right.

00;24;32;20 - 00;24;34;15
You know, where it's just information.

00;24;34;15 - 00;24;38;13
People experience so many different things
in these different realms

00;24;38;15 - 00;24;41;14
that come out
of, quote unquote, out of body.

00;24;41;14 - 00;24;45;01
And then there's research about like,
people do get information

00;24;45;01 - 00;24;46;11
when they go out of body.

00;24;46;11 - 00;24;51;06
and these stories are impactful
and important to listen to.

00;24;51;06 - 00;24;55;06
I don't think, though, I necessarily
assume that every time I have

00;24;55;06 - 00;24;58;23
one of these things that I'm really have
left my physical body.

00;24;59;02 - 00;25;03;04
In fact, I think that that paradigm
might be a little dualistic.

00;25;03;07 - 00;25;07;17
It might be another way of looking at it
is is that rather that I'm leaving

00;25;07;17 - 00;25;12;04
my body, the universe is making itself
more available to me.

00;25;12;04 - 00;25;14;12
things are opening up
and I'm not going anywhere.

00;25;14;12 - 00;25;16;14
It's just the veil is opened.

00;25;16;14 - 00;25;18;11
Yeah, like that. That makes so much sense.

00;25;18;11 - 00;25;19;13
I thought of another one

00;25;19;13 - 00;25;22;13
that I wanted to share with you that I had
that was quite impactful for me.

00;25;22;15 - 00;25;26;13
And this is one of my scarier
sleep paralysis type experiences as well.

00;25;26;18 - 00;25;29;04
I was like,
you know, typical sleep paralysis,

00;25;29;04 - 00;25;32;29
but I was being like dragged
from my feet almost.

00;25;32;29 - 00;25;36;21
But I was still in my bed, but I could
feel like movement of being dragged

00;25;36;28 - 00;25;38;19
you know, And it was like
I was going through this tunnel.

00;25;38;19 - 00;25;39;14
It was very weird.

00;25;39;14 - 00;25;42;01
And I was like,
Oh my God, Like, get me out here.

00;25;42;01 - 00;25;43;01
Like, I do not like this.

00;25;43;01 - 00;25;45;08
It felt like the super fast
roller coaster.

00;25;45;08 - 00;25;50;10
And I don't know, but I woke up into a
false awakening, so I wasn't really awake.

00;25;50;21 - 00;25;52;00
I had on different clothes or whatever.

00;25;52;00 - 00;25;54;00
I didn't even realize,
but I was like drunk,

00;25;54;00 - 00;25;57;14
almost like I was falling over and
spinning around like I couldn't get up.

00;25;57;20 - 00;26;00;06
I was like, falling onto the ground
and I couldn't stand up.

00;26;00;06 - 00;26;02;18
It was like
almost as if it had made me so dizzy.

00;26;02;18 - 00;26;04;29
first off, that sounds really interesting.

00;26;04;29 - 00;26;09;07
And I certainly at first it sort of
sounds like a horror movie, right?

00;26;09;07 - 00;26;13;05
And I think a lot of horror movies
use sleep paralysis imagery, too,

00;26;13;13 - 00;26;17;02
because we get it like we our
bodies are like, Oh, yeah, I've had that.

00;26;17;02 - 00;26;21;04
Even if we've, like, forgotten it, like
some part of us remembers what it's like.

00;26;21;12 - 00;26;24;24
And there's a vulnerability to it
because when we

00;26;25;10 - 00;26;28;05
it's a visionary state
right in but we're becoming

00;26;29;14 - 00;26;29;29
while

00;26;29;29 - 00;26;33;05
we're
in a sort of a victimhood kind of role.

00;26;33;08 - 00;26;37;17
And so when we're still identifying
with our physical and then that's

00;26;37;28 - 00;26;41;20
kind of still part of our scene,
what can happen to us.

00;26;41;20 - 00;26;45;04
Every interaction is essentially
that we're going to be victimized.

00;26;45;04 - 00;26;47;15
And so like, what can happen to me?

00;26;47;15 - 00;26;50;01
And so there's all these kinesthetic
is happening.

00;26;50;01 - 00;26;54;05
I'm hearing, you know, you're moving
through a tunnel really rapidly.

00;26;54;18 - 00;26;56;20
I mean, that's
can be a really fun experience.

00;26;56;20 - 00;27;00;14
But if we're feeling trapped,
it can be very alarming At the same time

00;27;00;14 - 00;27;04;21
and then this coming back into this false
awakening and feeling drunk.

00;27;05;00 - 00;27;07;03
I've definitely experienced that before.

00;27;07;03 - 00;27;09;14
and in fact, just a few weeks ago,

00;27;09;14 - 00;27;13;23
I had a lucid dream that started off
it was an exciting, lucid dream.

00;27;14;06 - 00;27;17;06
But then it transformed
and it felt like an LSD trip.

00;27;17;24 - 00;27;20;23
It really like everything felt

00;27;20;23 - 00;27;24;00
like I was full on tripping

00;27;24;20 - 00;27;29;03
and I was dancing and moving and spinning
on like these roller skates

00;27;29;03 - 00;27;34;10
that didn't exist as I moved around this
dreamscape in this expansive world and

00;27;34;18 - 00;27;38;29
and so so this is a phenomenon that again,
mentioning Charles Tart,

00;27;39;23 - 00;27;42;14
he he wrote an essay long, long ago

00;27;42;14 - 00;27;46;25
called High Dreams and like dreams about,
you know,

00;27;46;26 - 00;27;51;26
inebriation, dreams that mirror,
you know, different kinds of intoxication.

00;27;52;05 - 00;27;54;06
And what is that? What does that mean?

00;27;54;06 - 00;27;58;00
And it's just interesting
because we can essentially move

00;27;58;00 - 00;28;01;19
back into those state specific memories
of what it's like

00;28;02;03 - 00;28;05;05
to have those experiences
and when you see it from a

00;28;06;03 - 00;28;09;07
you know, from a perspective,
I would say cognitive freedom, right?

00;28;09;07 - 00;28;12;02
A non moral perspective of, you know,

00;28;12;02 - 00;28;16;06
all the varieties of, consciousness
that are available to us as humans,

00;28;16;15 - 00;28;20;25
each of these states of mind has,
you know, it's a way of knowing,

00;28;21;00 - 00;28;24;24
And so what is this way of knowing
and why is it expressing itself now?

00;28;24;24 - 00;28;26;02
You could always even look at it

00;28;26;02 - 00;28;30;02
as as we would say with DreamWorks,
like why this dream now,

00;28;30;10 - 00;28;35;01
you know, and the associations of,
okay, I'm experiencing this, do I

00;28;35;20 - 00;28;39;13
do I like that and how I'm experiencing
this, is it too much?

00;28;40;15 - 00;28;41;21
What does that tell me?

00;28;41;21 - 00;28;46;10
You know, maybe it's a reflection
on on my life, but probably not.

00;28;46;11 - 00;28;50;22
It's probably just a reflection on what's
coming up in the moment in the body.

00;28;51;05 - 00;28;54;15
you know, this whole term, the high dream,
I don't I think it's kind of come out of

00;28;54;18 - 00;28;55;23
out of favor.

00;28;55;23 - 00;28;57;03
people really do experience it.

00;28;57;03 - 00;29;03;14
And I hear, in fact, that folks
who have really intense Dante experiences,

00;29;04;01 - 00;29;07;06
you know, afterwards,
part of the integration process

00;29;07;07 - 00;29;11;27
is dreaming about what happened
because sometimes with very intense

00;29;11;27 - 00;29;15;19
psychedelic
experiences, things happen very rapidly.

00;29;16;06 - 00;29;20;00
And it's a lot of information,
it's a lot of perspective to hold.

00;29;20;13 - 00;29;24;13
And unless we integrate it,
it's kind of lost and dreaming

00;29;24;13 - 00;29;29;04
seems to kind of recapitulate it
and move back into those spaces.

00;29;29;10 - 00;29;30;29
so going back to the sleep paralysis,

00;29;30;29 - 00;29;34;03
I wanted to bridge like the science
and the spirituality a little bit.

00;29;34;10 - 00;29;38;09
So we talked about how, you know,
you see these entities as like projections

00;29;38;09 - 00;29;41;12
of whatever you're experiencing of that
in that state, you know,

00;29;41;12 - 00;29;44;16
and I'm sure like fear can feed into it
and stuff like that.

00;29;44;26 - 00;29;48;13
from a spiritual perspective,
even if we do encounter beings

00;29;48;13 - 00;29;51;21
and energies, demons,
whatever it may be, positive or negative,

00;29;52;01 - 00;29;54;15
whatever types of energies
that are passing through,

00;29;54;15 - 00;29;58;11
whatever dimension that we're halfway
in, assuming that that's even the case,

00;29;58;11 - 00;30;01;10
some people might believe that it's
just all in your head or whatever,

00;30;01;10 - 00;30;03;29
but what are ways
that people can like protect themselves?

00;30;03;29 - 00;30;04;08
You know,

00;30;04;08 - 00;30;05;28
we mentioned some relaxation things,

00;30;05;28 - 00;30;08;03
but is there anything else
that we can do to like,

00;30;08;03 - 00;30;08;21
you know,

00;30;08;21 - 00;30;12;11
claim our energy and decide, you know, we
don't want anybody negative around here?

00;30;12;14 - 00;30;14;01
that's a great way of thinking about it.

00;30;14;01 - 00;30;17;29
And I think that the paradigm
there would be psychic self-defense.

00;30;18;01 - 00;30;19;01
Right.

00;30;19;01 - 00;30;22;01
And so what are ways that I create

00;30;22;08 - 00;30;24;22
safety
for myself, for the ways that I create,

00;30;26;17 - 00;30;27;18
knowing that I might

00;30;27;18 - 00;30;31;12
choose to relax my boundaries
to see what happens.

00;30;31;18 - 00;30;34;24
But then if I don't like it,
then I can always re choose.

00;30;34;24 - 00;30;37;24
Right. And you know, this is

00;30;38;15 - 00;30;42;19
yeah, this is like a psychic self-defense,
a lot of times with this sleep

00;30;42;19 - 00;30;48;06
paralysis entities, our attitude
kind of co determines what's happening.

00;30;48;06 - 00;30;54;02
And so if we're assuming and expecting
things to go in a poor way, they often do.

00;30;54;16 - 00;30;56;16
If we make room for curiosity.

00;30;56;16 - 00;30;59;27
If we make room for just being interested
in what's happening

00;30;59;27 - 00;31;03;08
and maybe asking a question,
we can shift the reality

00;31;03;25 - 00;31;06;10
of who were interacting with and.

00;31;06;10 - 00;31;08;21
They change with us.

00;31;08;21 - 00;31;10;07
And so we're transforming.

00;31;10;07 - 00;31;14;03
But we don't see it so much,
but we notice it in relationship, right?

00;31;14;03 - 00;31;17;28
Nature turns
the face that you turn towards it

00;31;18;01 - 00;31;21;23
And one of the reasons why
this is where I start with with this topic

00;31;21;23 - 00;31;26;12
is because there are entire cultures
based around creating opportunities

00;31;26;12 - 00;31;29;20
to have these kind of interactions, dream
sharing cultures.

00;31;29;20 - 00;31;33;25
And the number one would be the ancient
Greeks with the Asclepius tradition,

00;31;33;28 - 00;31;38;06
with the healing cult of Asclepius,
which involved trying to provoke

00;31;38;06 - 00;31;41;23
dreams of the Goddess Cleopas
and his consorts for healing.

00;31;41;27 - 00;31;44;27
And so they would go through
all these rituals

00;31;45;01 - 00;31;50;22
and cleansings and prayer and meditation
and disruption of sleep,

00;31;50;22 - 00;31;53;21
all the things that, by the way,
we do with lucid dreaming

00;31;53;21 - 00;31;58;10
as a spiritual practice
and positive expectation, right.

00;31;58;10 - 00;32;01;13
That when I have a dream
and I see a figure, it's

00;32;01;13 - 00;32;04;24
going to be the God Asclepius, It's
going to be a healing thing.

00;32;05;06 - 00;32;07;08
And so when this sort of

00;32;07;08 - 00;32;10;16
see paralysis, entities often show
up, it's very ambiguous.

00;32;10;20 - 00;32;15;21
I you remember the movie Dracula
or I've seen the descriptions

00;32;15;21 - 00;32;19;02
of Bram Stoker's Dracula,
but it's the perfect description

00;32;19;19 - 00;32;22;29
shows up these
they show up sometimes shrouded in mist.

00;32;22;29 - 00;32;24;07
And you're like, who is that?

00;32;24;07 - 00;32;26;14
Who is in the room with me?

00;32;26;14 - 00;32;29;16
And so I'm scared, I'm fearful,
I don't know.

00;32;29;28 - 00;32;33;25
And there's a moment of, oh,
like I'm going to have some trust and I'm

00;32;33;25 - 00;32;37;11
going to have some positive expectation
that this is someone who's here to

00;32;37;29 - 00;32;42;01
to have something for me to help heal me,
perhaps, or teach me something.

00;32;42;24 - 00;32;46;08
And when we set that intention
at this moment of if high

00;32;46;08 - 00;32;50;14
ambiguity,
the figure steps forward and right.

00;32;50;14 - 00;32;51;29
And then different things happen.

00;32;51;29 - 00;32;54;03
And so then that's
where we get these accounts

00;32;54;03 - 00;32;57;05
of angel visitations
coming out of sleep paralysis, right?

00;32;57;08 - 00;33;00;09
And so I think
expectation is super important.

00;33;00;09 - 00;33;01;10
Yeah, that's so true.

00;33;01;10 - 00;33;03;24
I mean, I think that's
really one of the main things because,

00;33;03;24 - 00;33;05;16
you know,
you can read a lot of things online,

00;33;05;16 - 00;33;08;18
even with dreaming and lucid dreaming,
like that's a huge thing.

00;33;08;28 - 00;33;11;16
You know, whatever you believe
will play into your experience,

00;33;11;16 - 00;33;13;23
you know, it's a thought
responsive environment.

00;33;13;23 - 00;33;17;08
If you read something online like, Oh,
don't do this, the dream will turn bad, or

00;33;17;23 - 00;33;20;12
looking in mirrors is bad
and it will turn into a nightmare.

00;33;20;12 - 00;33;22;08
Whatever it is that people say online,

00;33;22;08 - 00;33;23;26
that's going to
if you put that in your head,

00;33;23;26 - 00;33;25;27
that's going to have an effect
on your experience.

00;33;25;27 - 00;33;29;08
I've really appreciated how in six hour,
how you've been addressing

00;33;29;08 - 00;33;31;28
some of those myths,
because there's so much of it.

00;33;31;28 - 00;33;36;17
And I'm just I shake my head
at these people who are like, yeah, that,

00;33;36;17 - 00;33;39;29
you know, there's things you shouldn't
do in a dream or bad things will happen.

00;33;39;29 - 00;33;42;01
It's like, well,
you're just setting yourself up for this.

00;33;42;01 - 00;33;45;01
This is,
you know, And one thing is, is that, you

00;33;45;02 - 00;33;48;26
know, it's not like having one bad say.

00;33;48;27 - 00;33;53;08
Neurotic thought is going to spontaneously
make a nightmare show up.

00;33;53;08 - 00;33;55;01
It's it's not about that.

00;33;55;01 - 00;33;58;18
It's more about,
like intense negative expectation

00;33;58;26 - 00;34;02;26
that moves into intention
and into manifestation.

00;34;03;05 - 00;34;05;26
So I can be fearful

00;34;05;26 - 00;34;09;04
and notice my fearfulness and set it aside

00;34;09;19 - 00;34;14;14
and and know that that's not necessarily
going to affect the dream matrix too much.

00;34;14;14 - 00;34;19;06
It's when we sort of set into a groove,
and stay in that negative groove,

00;34;19;06 - 00;34;22;25
that's that's
when the percolation really begins

00;34;23;09 - 00;34;27;27
but you know other things to do is this is
why I created this dream talisman right.

00;34;27;27 - 00;34;31;09
Is, is that they
they they're a liminal object right.

00;34;31;09 - 00;34;36;11
So liminal they exist in both worlds
and you can use them in protective ways.

00;34;36;11 - 00;34;40;05
You can, say a prayer or a mantra
or an affirmation

00;34;40;05 - 00;34;44;08
using any kind of dream amulet
and put it on your bedside table.

00;34;44;25 - 00;34;47;17
And when you're in a fearful place
in the middle of the night,

00;34;47;17 - 00;34;50;10
some part of your mind
remembers that you're protected.

00;34;50;10 - 00;34;51;26
So that's psychic self-defense.

00;34;51;26 - 00;34;53;18
You've created a net.

00;34;53;18 - 00;34;57;26
You know, you've got,
you know, sacred objects around you

00;34;57;26 - 00;35;00;27
that are protecting you. And
this is just like dream catchers, right?

00;35;00;27 - 00;35;04;29
And so we there's certain objects
that are just great for this.

00;35;05;15 - 00;35;08;15
And old coins,
like the one that I've created, but

00;35;08;15 - 00;35;12;04
also can be something from your spiritual
or religious tradition.

00;35;12;26 - 00;35;14;29
But it doesn't have to be religious
at all. Right?

00;35;14;29 - 00;35;16;20
It can be stones, it can be crystals.

00;35;16;20 - 00;35;22;11
It's sort of, however
you view your own right spiritual matrix.

00;35;22;17 - 00;35;26;11
And that's such a good concept,
you know, of the objects and just creating

00;35;26;11 - 00;35;29;11
your own, you know, protection
that resonates with you.

00;35;29;21 - 00;35;32;06
I use mantras a lot
and it's about consistency,

00;35;32;06 - 00;35;33;03
kind of like you said,

00;35;33;03 - 00;35;36;03
like putting that into your brain,
that you're protected in your mind

00;35;36;06 - 00;35;39;02
consistently, especially if you're,
you know, into dream work

00;35;39;02 - 00;35;39;24
and that kind of stuff.

00;35;39;24 - 00;35;42;00
Like I always tell myself
I'm divinely protected.

00;35;42;00 - 00;35;43;12
I'm happy, healthy, wealthy,

00;35;43;12 - 00;35;43;24
like it's

00;35;43;24 - 00;35;44;15
kind of like something

00;35;44;15 - 00;35;46;23
that automatically plays in my brain
and I'm dreaming,

00;35;46;23 - 00;35;48;29
especially if I notice myself
getting scared.

00;35;48;29 - 00;35;53;07
And so it's become like second nature to
go to my affirmations and I focus on that.

00;35;53;18 - 00;35;55;20
And then, you know, it's
kind of like a little meditation

00;35;55;20 - 00;35;59;02
in the dream, like all the negative things
kind of just fade away, yeah.

00;35;59;11 - 00;36;00;25
I mean, even, you know,

00;36;00;25 - 00;36;04;26
if you're an atheist or an existentialist,
these tactics work.

00;36;04;26 - 00;36;07;26
You can literally be grounded
in scientific

00;36;08;09 - 00;36;11;16
thought and be like,
I know that this is a biological I'm

00;36;11;16 - 00;36;14;25
experiencing something biological
right now and that I'm safe in my bed.

00;36;15;10 - 00;36;15;21
Right.

00;36;15;21 - 00;36;18;04
You know, that is an affirmation.

00;36;18;04 - 00;36;20;18
That is a mantra. Right?

00;36;20;18 - 00;36;22;29
So so we can take these statements

00;36;22;29 - 00;36;25;29
that meet us
no matter what our belief system is.

00;36;26;05 - 00;36;27;05
Yeah, exactly.

00;36;27;05 - 00;36;29;10
I love that you brought that up
because, yeah, anybody

00;36;29;10 - 00;36;31;17
whatever works for you,
whatever your beliefs are,

00;36;31;17 - 00;36;35;05
you know, you'll wake up, you'll be fine,
you know, and you are in control

00;36;35;05 - 00;36;37;06
at the end of the day,
like that's quite proven.

00;36;37;06 - 00;36;39;20
What you tell yourself,
your body and your mind.

00;36;39;20 - 00;36;42;20
You know that in your experience,
even in waking life.

00;36;43;00 - 00;36;44;04
Yeah, that's great.

00;36;44;04 - 00;36;47;04
I'm glad you brought that up, because
that's kind of the big picture, right?

00;36;47;10 - 00;36;49;04
It's about our lives.

00;36;49;04 - 00;36;53;26
It's about like, how do I live my life
and how do I, claim my power

00;36;53;26 - 00;36;58;01
and go about and, you know, get done
what I need to get done?

00;36;58;05 - 00;36;59;04
what is this like?

00;36;59;04 - 00;37;03;07
You know, a lot of people will experience
electrical vibration,

00;37;03;07 - 00;37;06;25
shock waves, whatever, especially in those
transitional liminal phases.

00;37;06;29 - 00;37;08;06
that vibrational state.

00;37;08;06 - 00;37;10;11
You know, what is the science behind that?

00;37;10;11 - 00;37;12;25
And like,
what is that? That's a good question.

00;37;12;25 - 00;37;16;07
So so it is essentially

00;37;16;07 - 00;37;19;08
considered a hypochondriac hallucination.

00;37;20;18 - 00;37;21;16
And so it doesn't

00;37;21;16 - 00;37;24;16
have to be associated with REM sleep.

00;37;24;22 - 00;37;27;03
And it might be related to

00;37;27;03 - 00;37;30;03
a part of the brain called the TMJ.

00;37;30;09 - 00;37;34;08
And so it's just this small part
on the side of the brain

00;37;34;08 - 00;37;40;12
that monster's our awareness
and our relationship to the environment.

00;37;40;12 - 00;37;45;22
So it's vestibular activation, basically,
it's the inner ear.

00;37;46;15 - 00;37;48;23
When that part of the brain is activated.

00;37;48;23 - 00;37;52;15
All of these we experience
a lot of these kind of feelings

00;37;52;21 - 00;37;57;09
of arousal or dizziness,
winds, things like that.

00;37;57;17 - 00;38;02;23
And so it's essentially being scattered
our our sense of self as being scattered.

00;38;02;23 - 00;38;05;23
It's almost like there's
a lot of noise in the system.

00;38;05;28 - 00;38;08;27
I like to think of it as being in between.

00;38;08;27 - 00;38;10;16
So it's liminal, right?

00;38;10;16 - 00;38;12;13
It's in it's in between.

00;38;12;13 - 00;38;15;22
And so it's it's a time in order for.

00;38;15;29 - 00;38;18;14
Yeah. Moving into other states.

00;38;18;14 - 00;38;22;19
And so it's, it's really this opportunity
some people really can elongate it

00;38;22;19 - 00;38;23;13
and stay in it.

00;38;23;13 - 00;38;26;13
Some people say
it's a healing state in itself and you can

00;38;26;27 - 00;38;31;16
direct the energy into your chakras
and into your body systems.

00;38;31;27 - 00;38;34;24
There's quite a lot of esoteric and hidden

00;38;34;24 - 00;38;38;13
teachings about this stuff
that's not available to me.

00;38;39;16 - 00;38;42;12
But I know that it's out there
and I know that people teach this,

00;38;42;12 - 00;38;45;26
teach this work
and in, you know, in esoteric settings.

00;38;46;12 - 00;38;49;17
And so I think of them as definitely a,

00;38;49;20 - 00;38;52;26
you know, it's
medicinal, allows us to go places.

00;38;53;17 - 00;38;56;05
And so when you experience these things,

00;38;56;05 - 00;38;59;19
that's the time to set your intentions
and to ground yourself, right?

00;38;59;20 - 00;39;01;18
Like, where am I going?

00;39;01;18 - 00;39;02;07
How am I doing?

00;39;02;07 - 00;39;05;09
Even if the intention
is to surrender to the moment

00;39;05;18 - 00;39;08;18
and see where what happens next?

00;39;08;22 - 00;39;11;25
That's a perfectly fine intention
and I think a very,

00;39;12;10 - 00;39;14;28
very good one, in fact, because we can be

00;39;14;28 - 00;39;18;05
brought to the places
that need our attention

00;39;19;01 - 00;39;21;18
and this can be in a psycho spiritual
kind of way

00;39;21;18 - 00;39;24;20
or even in terms of our body,

00;39;24;20 - 00;39;28;13
we can we can learn of,
the health of our body in this way.

00;39;28;13 - 00;39;32;10
And so there's a lot of really cool
applications that come

00;39;32;10 - 00;39;36;03
with recognizing the state
and being able to sit in it.

00;39;36;07 - 00;39;39;09
So I wanted to ask you
about some of your personal experiences,

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like maybe
some of the most memorable ones,

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whether they were nightmares,
lucid dreams, regular dreams, whatever.

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Do you have anything that stands out
as some of your faves, or at least faves?

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There's so many that it's always
interesting to see what sort of shows up.

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When someone asked me that question,

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I've been thinking a lot recently
about dreams of nature

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and dreams of ecology and and connections

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to sort of the deep ecology and Gaia.

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I recently had a dream.

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It was not a lucid dream,
but I had a dream about about buffalo

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being slaughtered.

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And it was really disturbing.

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And and of course, this is something
that happened to the United States

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historical sense in the 1800s,
in the early 1900s, due

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to colonialism, due
to the slaughter of American Buffalo.

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But in a wider sense,
the death of the megafauna,

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the end of the Ice Age is something
that I've been thinking about,

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and the dream that I had of Buffalo before
that was five years prior,

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and that was a dream in which a buffalo
and this was a lucid dream

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or, a large bison basically came up to me

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and cornered me into a space up
against a wall.

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In fact,
there was sort of like just pile of,

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I don't know, suitcases
or something that I had to climb.

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So there was a lot of baggage
and I had to climb all this to.

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I was trying to kind of find a space.

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And meanwhile this, this,
this huge bison just sticks

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its head in my grill
and its nose is like this, right?

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And so it's this massive creature
and it puts its nose up against me

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and then starts to inhale me, like
not in a way, like I'm not going inside

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of it's just taking me in, breathing in,
and then exhaling and then inhaling it

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as if it sort of kind of felt like
I was being spiritually X-rayed, sort of.

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and then that was it.

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And then the dream faded.

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I woke up from that dream saying,
What was that?

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And I remembered that some time ago,
I think a year prior to that,

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I had had an opportunity to visit
some Paleolithic caves in France.

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And one of the most striking images
that I saw in one of the caves,

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I believe it was shaving was of a bison

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who is a freeze of five bison, actually.

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And one of the bison is it's it's looking

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profile
and it's looking at you with its one eye.

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And it just pierced me
and I pierced my soul.

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And I saw this image in real realized
I felt like the bison was looking at me

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and saying, okay, human like,
how are you doing?

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What have you done to the world?

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why are you here?
What do you want from me?

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All these kind of questions flowed in.

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In between.

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It almost felt accusatory,
you know, in that eye,

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that sort of the eye,
the bison sort of haunted me.

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And I hadn't thought about it in
a long time until I had this bison dream.

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And now, five years later,
I have this buffalo dream

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and I'm thinking,
where is this coming from?

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And then I say, Oh, of course,

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I'm actually going back to the Paleolithic
caves this summer,

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and I'm going to have a chance
to see the same cave again

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and to interact with the same,
you know, freeze again, hopefully.

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And to be honest, I'm
a little nervous about it

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because I don't think I've answered the
questions yet from last time.

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I'm looking at dream work and life work

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and sort of the big ecological picture,
how we all fit in, all in one breath here.

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It's a process, right?

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And so for me,
dream work is just one more angle

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at the creative mind
that allows us to be incongruence

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with with nature and with our society
and with our people in our family.

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often it shows us where
we're not. Incongruence Right.

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And so kind of going back to the idea
of nightmares is that

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here is the issue, right?

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So anyway,
I I've been meditating a lot on on that

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and thinking about about this
and am I ready?

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Am I ready to face the bison again?

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Wow, That's fascinating. Yeah.

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I'm excited to see how it feels
when you go there.

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And you know what?

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For what it's worth,
I think the bison would be proud because

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you've had some great contributions
and explorations within dream work.

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You're doing a lot of things for humanity
from what I can see.

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So I know
sometimes it doesn't feel that way, but,

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I've got to tell the bison
you said that, so.

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Okay, how about.

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I just always like to end with a thought

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that that dream work and lucid dream work,
it all comes in its own time.

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And if you're trying to go lucid
and it hasn't happened yet, be patient.

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Work on your dream.

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Recall just work on building those bridges
and being interested in your dreams.

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Because.

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Because that's really where the power,

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I think a lot of lucid dreamers
I see our motivations come up

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because we want to

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do things in our dreams,
but we're not interested in dreams per se.

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But you'll have a lot more success
if you meet the dream halfway.

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Yeah, that's great advice.

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You know, I agree about all your dreams.

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There's so much within dream work.

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Yeah,
so my website is dream studies dot org,

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and that's where you can find where I run
my occasional live courses there

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and the Lucid Talisman
and my latest book, Lucid Talisman.

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You can find it Lucid talisman dot com.

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Okay. Bye.


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