EP70: Jungian Dream Theory & Lucid Dreaming

Bryn Cutress is a 24-year-old advanced lucid dreamer from Australia. She has a background in Jungian psychology and is hoping to incorporate dream research into clinical therapy. Drawing from the work of Carl Jung, we uncover the symbolic language of dreams and their profound significance in the individuation process. We also talk about Bryn's personal lucid dream experiences. Follow our journey of exploring metaphysical concepts like shared dreaming, dream telepathy, lucid dream therapy, and more. 

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The Ultimate List of Things to do in a Lucid Dream
The Dream World Library – Book & Movies about dreams

Chapters

• 4:00 WILD (Wake Induced lucid dream) technique
• 11:52 Aboriginal Dream Time
• 16:00 Dream inspired art
• 17:57 Anima and Animus in dreams
• 33:09 Lucid dream control
• 35:33 Jungian archetypes

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;20;21
Unknown
Lucid dreaming and how to do it should be great and it should be well known. And people who have lucid dreams, whatever they are, should be able to go to someone and say, this is what is happening to me, and that person should be able to explain that this is a scientific phenomena and you're normal and you're okay.

00;00;20;23 - 00;00;45;00
Unknown
And this is a reality of lucid dreaming is that it's not always a super positive experience. It might be really, really daunting. You want to know what happens after death? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, I can't tell you what happens after death. And then he says, but you might even like it. And he says, you'll be able to tear right into the void and slip right into the inky blackness, just like how you lucid dream straight after that, and I will be there to help you.

00;00;45;03 - 00;01;07;16
Unknown
Death is a concept known only to humans and will come obsolete, but for now, get lost. And then it kicked me out of the dream. That's deep, that's all. Most of my lucid dreams. Having friends in the lucid dreaming community is really special to me, and has really advanced my practice and enthusiasm for dream work overall. Today's guest is Brin, who I met in the community.

00;01;07;21 - 00;01;26;19
Unknown
It's been fun to explore this idea of being able to meet up in the dream space, share information with other people, and explore the dream on a deeper level. Brin and I are interested in the metaphysical aspects of dreams and researching these phenomenon on an academic level. Her background in Jungian psychology has guided her through a spontaneous shift in her dream life.

00;01;26;19 - 00;01;55;11
Unknown
So thanks for joining me, and please feel free to share your story. My name is Brin. I am 24 years old. I'm from Australia. I'm a counselor while studying to be and two years ago 2022 is when I started having like lucid dreams. And I guess it was like a somewhat abnormal experience because I feel that a lucid dream is fit into like the people that started doing it when they were really young and never really stopped.

00;01;55;11 - 00;02;22;07
Unknown
And then the other people that try for a like maybe a year to sort of like get into the lucid dreaming space and then become aware they do like reality checks and things like that. Those are like the main categories of people that I know of that can lucid dream. But mine started really, really spontaneously where I was just having like sleep paralysis induced lucid dreams, where I was like sort of like sinking into my mattress and waking up in the lucid dream and for like a while that for like a year or maybe a little bit more.

00;02;22;07 - 00;02;50;16
Unknown
I was just doing it like literally whenever I wanted to, like on demand and just sort of exploring that realm. So that's how I started. So you had them spontaneously. Did you just become aware from within the dream, or what in particular made you become lucid? So Stephen, the book talks about this, I'm pretty sure, where he says, like when someone goes from sleep paralysis into like they sort of go through this like waiting room, like a void sort of thing.

00;02;50;16 - 00;03;09;24
Unknown
And then you wake up usually on your own bedroom floor, and in like a way, it's almost like an OBE. Some people say they see their own bodies, some people don't. But yeah, I was just sort of like going through that and then just waking up on my bedroom floor and, just inside of a lucid dream, like the first couple of times, I didn't know it was always a dream.

00;03;09;24 - 00;03;32;11
Unknown
I just had no idea what was happening to me. But yeah, that's that's sort of like how that formed, I guess. Yeah. Okay. So you felt like, aware in this liminal space and you knew that you were not awake and maybe not asleep. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. That where it's like a very strange, liminal space where things don't look exactly as they should.

00;03;32;13 - 00;03;57;15
Unknown
Maybe there's different people or like things appearing different, like sounds and textures and feelings and it's not quite right. Yeah. And so when you had the sleep paralysis experience, what was that like? Was that scary? And how were you able to go from sleep paralysis to a lucid dream? It was scary because I had sleep paralysis when I was younger, and it was like the really typical I can't move.

00;03;57;15 - 00;04;15;19
Unknown
I'm terrified what's going on. And like that was really traumatic for me. And then when I got a bit older and then like when this started happening, I would feel a sleep paralysis coming on and I really thought, hold on a second, what happens if I don't find it? And I just go with it? And yeah, that's that's sort of where it led me.

00;04;15;19 - 00;04;33;15
Unknown
I guess. That's awesome. So what happened when you didn't fight it like you remember the first time? Yeah, I do, it was really scary. And I think it was designed by whatever it is, sometimes these processes to be scary, where it was almost like a, I don't know, kind of like the metaphor of taking like the rental, the blue pill.

00;04;33;16 - 00;04;55;19
Unknown
And you can do this and you can go through with it and it's kind of scary because you're slipping into this really dark, condensed space and you can feel very strange textures, very strange sensations, lights, colors and all sort of hypnagogic, sort of like hallucinations and things like that. But if you decide to do it, you sort of are rewarded with waking up in what feels like a different reality.

00;04;55;22 - 00;05;18;26
Unknown
Yeah. That's cool. I tell people all the time, you know, like what you're saying, that when you approach it with like love and motivation, it kind of transforms the scary sleep paralysis experience usually. And it's kind of like a challenge within Dreamwork as a whole to be able to get through that and face that fear in order to get the reward, you know, like if you see dream work as like a video game, you know, that's like one of the challenges.

00;05;19;01 - 00;05;41;13
Unknown
So yeah, it's a really good lesson to like, face your fears and like, confronting things, confronting the shadow. so I try to tell people all the time like, don't be scared of sleep paralysis. It can lead you to really cool lucid dreams and OBEs and other things like that. So, yeah, I've had similar experiences to you where like, I had a lot of sleep paralysis in college, but I was never really scared of it because I was kind of used to it.

00;05;41;18 - 00;05;59;25
Unknown
Like I'd have had some even now as like an advanced practitioner or whatever you call it. I get scared once in a while. I'm like, nope, not dealing with this, but for the most part, like, I can stay calm and, you know, get out of my body and walk around. And sometimes I'll be in like my home, and then sometimes I'll just start a dream randomly.

00;05;59;28 - 00;06;21;25
Unknown
Have you ever experienced, like, you know how people say when they have sleep paralysis and they feel like scary energies or like demons and beings around them? Have you ever felt something like that? Yeah, yeah, when I was younger and maybe I had like a different sort of belief system again, when I wasn't really aware of, like what demons could be a metaphor for, like shadows of the inner psyche and things like that.

00;06;22;02 - 00;06;40;14
Unknown
It was really scary where it did feel like I shouldn't I should be able to move right now. And, I think the brain sort of fills in the gap like, oh, you can't move because there's like an evil entity. And that's like what the stories that you tell yourself to sort of explain the experience. And then I did have a lot of really, really intense nightmares and dark phases of my life.

00;06;40;15 - 00;07;04;22
Unknown
I had a lot of, yeah, like there's like evil beings and things like that. So yeah, I have experienced that, but, not so much anymore. It's interesting. So it's like the more you learn and like accept the experience, I guess it becomes more mellow. I've noticed. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So so I want to talk about like how you found me in the podcast and like how we kind of came to be because I thought that was such like an awesome story.

00;07;04;25 - 00;07;24;15
Unknown
And it made me really happy when you reached out. So, so special. Honestly, in Australia, we don't really have anything like, any organizations or things that really help support people to lucid dream or we have any like even validation research other people doing it. There's not many people here to do it and but I know of anyway.

00;07;24;22 - 00;07;46;10
Unknown
So I reached out and I have a few like connections in America and whatnot, and one of my friends sent me a bunch of like, resources and she said, oh, you should really look through this and, you know, connect with people from like, different groups and things like that. And I was like, yeah, that sounds great. And so I'm going through her and it's a lot of resources like three Facebook groups, like a bunch of like newsletters and things like that.

00;07;46;11 - 00;08;01;23
Unknown
Like just, yeah, lots and lots of information. And I decided to go on to like one Facebook group and I'm scrolling down and I see, like someone posted like, did you ever have like, a lucid dream that helped with a breakout? And I click on it because I was like, I've done that. That's sick. And I like, read.

00;08;01;23 - 00;08;21;09
Unknown
And then I just read this like, beautiful story about a dream someone had had. And it was like meeting Spirit Guide. And she was in this beautiful red dress. And I just like the dream was written in such a lovely way. It was just really touching for me. I just really vibed with that. But, I didn't like, I didn't comment, I didn't like, you know, check it out or anything.

00;08;21;09 - 00;08;40;14
Unknown
I just sort of went, okay, on to the next information, like, let's go. And I ended up like getting on to like the I a SD the International association of is it dream sciences little study study of dreams. So yeah. Yeah. then newsletter which was like free for like for the summer and I was like, that's all up there.

00;08;40;14 - 00;08;58;16
Unknown
Yeah. And it's like doing like an interview and like all sorts of other things. And I just like, scroll down to a random page and I'm like, oh, let's read this. And it was like the interviewer asked what was like a standout sort of dream for you. And I read the lines like the exact same lines like, spirit guide, beautiful red dress.

00;08;58;16 - 00;09;20;20
Unknown
And I was just like, wait, what? What I did, I just what? And I read it and it was like the exact same dream. And I was like, what? Like, that's crazy. And, yeah, I just thought it was so amazing. But like, through, like, thousands of different information sources, I just read the exact same dream account and, it ended up being yours and I like I found your on Facebook.

00;09;20;20 - 00;09;44;25
Unknown
I was like, hey, like, you're not gonna believe this. This is crazy. And I just said thank you because I thought that was beautiful. So yeah, that was like a crazy synchronicity. Thank you for like, reading my dream. And it's so funny because think about all the things that had to align for that synchronicity to happen. Like I was just randomly scrolling through Facebook and every once in a while I'll comment on a post and I was like, oh, I have a story for this post.

00;09;44;25 - 00;10;01;19
Unknown
Let me just. And I just dropped a screenshot. I didn't even really think about writing anything. And then in the magazine, Robert Wagner asked me to do an interview and I was so excited. I was like, oh my God, like, look at me doing things. So that was a dream I shared on there. And so those were two completely different things for me, like months apart.

00;10;01;23 - 00;10;18;19
Unknown
So it's really interesting that they like collided for you in that way. And it's a lot of validation for me because, you know, even though people are doing this more now, it's still like sometimes I feel kind of crazy, you know, as I'm sure you understand. So it's good to see that, like, my stories and what I'm doing like reaches people in some way.

00;10;18;22 - 00;10;38;00
Unknown
Absolutely. Yeah. That that dream just like, really resonated with me because I was like, you know, I have felt similar things to that and that feels crazy. And it was just a vibrant, lovely, lovely dream. And I think, like in a way that synchronicities, if you read The Alchemist by, Paul or something or other, he's like a Brazilian author.

00;10;38;06 - 00;11;02;13
Unknown
He really says like it's a work of fiction, but I think there's some truth to it. But he really talks about how synchronicities guide us to our, souls purpose. And that might be a bit like a hippie rave. I trust me, I'm on the same page. I love that book too badly. So yeah, synchronicities, they are everywhere, especially when you're following, things that feel right for you, I think.

00;11;02;15 - 00;11;25;26
Unknown
Yeah, I agree, I think there's like a higher self of us or whatever, if you call it ancestor spirit guides, whatever opposing force on the spiritual side of reality that are helping us through things, they send us messages like hidden in into our daily life. And, you know, if we ignore them, then we ignore them. And if we pay attention to them, it like wakes up a feeling within us that's kind of like so hard to ignore and like really hard to explain.

00;11;26;02 - 00;11;47;03
Unknown
So I think that's really awesome. Yeah. and then like Joseph Campbell's The Hero's Journey. Yeah, I'm sure you're probably familiar with that at this point. That's like that's called not The Awakening, but it's like the call to adventure. Yeah, that's what it is. It's like you have this thing that says, I can no longer follow the things that I've been following anymore, does not, even internally or externally work for me.

00;11;47;05 - 00;12;05;20
Unknown
And this is where I need to right now. Yeah, it's beautiful really. And I thought of something else, too, while you were talking about how dream work isn't very respected or studied in Australia nowadays, and I find that interesting too, because what do you think happened? So I've read a little bit about like the Aboriginal culture, which is in Australia.

00;12;05;20 - 00;12;25;17
Unknown
Right. and they were really into dream work and dreams. So what do you think happened in this modern world? I'm not like the best person to give my opinion on that because I don't know that much about like what the indigenous culture has like, suffered for. Fortunately, we aren't taught that in schools ever. But it was, you know, suppression.

00;12;25;17 - 00;12;56;01
Unknown
It was a lot of suppression. And it was called out of the community. and the practices weren't taken seriously. And, in a lot of ways it was, removed from history. So some really, really, really hard things to sort of, take us away from what would be almost like a natural process for people of using lucid dreams or dreams in general as like messages from evil, like, an external force or an internal force.

00;12;56;17 - 00;13;24;04
Unknown
and it's, it's really, really sad that we have gotten to this place where it's not taken seriously and, well, it's coming full circle now because people are taking interest like people like you and me and but, outspoken people that talk about, you know, the importance of this. That's true. And if there's any listeners in Australia, they should follow you and, like, make a little community in Australia because I see it growing, you know, every once in a while, like, people will comment like, oh, I'm watching you from Australia.

00;13;24;04 - 00;13;43;08
Unknown
And I'm like, oh, great, that makes me happy because I have a few Australian friends and they say the same thing, like, people here think I'm crazy. And I'm like, really? Like, I found a community here. But, you know, before I had that community, I also felt that way. So I know the feeling. Yeah, yeah. You got all sorts of my labels, like schizophrenic, like psychosis.

00;13;43;15 - 00;14;03;29
Unknown
You know, maybe you're just delusional escapist. It's. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. People have said that to you. Yeah. You're having no dreams or what? Yeah. Yeah. I even, I had, like, a psychic, and I was like, you know, like, I'm, like, speaking to this man a lot in my dreams. I think he's my animals. And she's just like, have you been tested for schizophrenia?

00;14;03;29 - 00;14;27;15
Unknown
Like you might be insane. What's. That's interesting? Because animals is such a young and concept that's quite like understood in psychology these days. not. Yeah, well, it's interesting to hear. So what has your journey been like? You said you're starting your career as a counselor, and I think that's really awesome. By the way, what's your plan? Or like, what have has your experience been like?

00;14;27;21 - 00;14;49;22
Unknown
I was like, I have a degree in graphic design originally, and that was going like, oh, like it was good. Like I then went into like business and communication because I thought, you know, like, this is really great. Like, this is like and I realized that the only thing that actually interested me in it was psychology. and I really felt business is just the psychology of manipulation.

00;14;49;25 - 00;15;14;23
Unknown
And I didn't want to be doing that. So I sort of escaped that and went into a diploma of counseling. And that time I was like, what am I doing with my life? Like, what is happening? But yeah, I followed it through and I've got six months left of like the two year degree. And I liked it. I liked what I've learned, although it is like it's base level things that we're learning and I don't agree with, like some of it.

00;15;14;23 - 00;15;29;07
Unknown
But at the end of the day, like it's, it's a way to get a foot in the door of the industry. And I do really appreciate, like, this award that I found inside of counseling, but, yeah, there's there's nobody talking about the things that I'm talking about, that's for sure. That's good. So you're paving the way.

00;15;29;07 - 00;15;49;05
Unknown
I'm excited to see you grow and take that into something, you know, new. we're actually similar in a lot of ways because I also studied graphic design. And then I switched to psychology, and now here we are. So that's really funny. I do like digital illustration. It's like a lot of the things that I do now are like influenced by my dreams.

00;15;49;05 - 00;16;05;10
Unknown
I'm sure you probably do like similar things like that. Yeah. I love hearing creative people like you do that intentionally while lucid. Or do you just have a dream of something and it gives you an idea? well, sometimes, like I will see like figures or something in my dream and then I'll turn it into art. when I'm like, I'll draw it out.

00;16;05;13 - 00;16;23;24
Unknown
Super cool. I love that, like getting inspiration from the dream. That's like multi-dimensional art. Like you created it in the dream and you brought it to life. That's super cool. Yeah. And that's another thing that you can use dream Spaces for. And this is like something else that I do. I can play guitar and I make music as well.

00;16;24;00 - 00;16;43;23
Unknown
And I like found out that you can you really can use the lucid dream as almost like an auditor or your desk, like you can add like guitar into the dream and you create your own like symphony of things inside of the dream. And there's like levels of things and it's like you can even see it physically or you don't see it at all, and you can just create it and it just comes out of the dream.

00;16;43;23 - 00;17;03;16
Unknown
Like all around, you just hear the noise of like the bass, the, the, the strings, and you just create these, like, absolutely like it doesn't sound bad of our. It's just this like beautiful symphony of music that comes out of nowhere, but your brain just converts it into something. It sounds amazing, I love that. Are you able to remember the tune when you wake up so that you can replicate it?

00;17;03;18 - 00;17;30;00
Unknown
Sometimes? Like, I don't think I'm at a good enough point in like, music construction where I can do it well. I to be able to do exactly what I've heard in the dream. But, sometimes, yeah, sometimes I hear things in the dream and I'll play it. And I love that. So lucid dreaming. Do you remember, like, maybe not your first lucid dream or the first one that was, like, really inspiring to you where you were like, okay, I know I'm in a dream.

00;17;30;00 - 00;17;58;29
Unknown
Like, I need to do something about this. Yeah, I think my dreams went like straight from 0 to 100, like real quick. So the first couple times I was lucid dreaming, I was and this is a very common theme in my dreams, like visited by what some people would consider an animus or an amalgamation of masculine traits. but something like a figure that is very aware, more aware than what a usual dream character would sort of be.

00;17;59;01 - 00;18;16;23
Unknown
He usually takes the form of whoever I'm dating at that point, because I'm like ultimate dating like a man, and you like, sort of like appear as that person. So at that point, it was like my boyfriend at the time of like two years and he, I would sort of wake up into a dream and he would be there, like visiting me.

00;18;16;26 - 00;18;31;06
Unknown
And I felt like that was really nice because we didn't spend like as much time as I wanted to, like in real life. So I would sort of just like put myself in these dreams and say to him and just sort of like, be like comforted by that. And like, it was really nice. Like how, yeah, I'm spending time with you.

00;18;31;09 - 00;18;56;28
Unknown
And then at one point, like, maybe like the second dream of that or like the third, I was just kind of like, hang on a second. Who are you? Like? You're not like my boyfriend. Like, I'm awesome. Like, do we just have a shared dream? And he's like, not, you know, so I'm like, who are you? And at that point he just sort of smiles at me and we just start talking about like, life and death and all sorts of different things.

00;18;56;28 - 00;19;15;09
Unknown
And I realized, like, this is a little bit more than a normal sort of dream. I love the concept of the anima and the animus, and I'm just going to give it a little definition so the listeners know and correct me if I'm wrong. There's like the male aspects inside of every female and then the female aspects inside of male.

00;19;15;09 - 00;19;32;02
Unknown
Then that's kind of like the balance that we all have within us. Now. I was just reading about this the other day. Interesting. And sometimes if somebody identifies too much with one characteristic or the other, their dreams might try to balance them out or, you know, remind them of the other side of that. And there's like a million different schools of thought on this.

00;19;32;02 - 00;19;57;01
Unknown
But the man's anima, which is like the, repressed or just collected traits of feminine, inside of him, will appear like as a woman in his dreams or like in some things that I've read to do with like union theory is like that. All feminine aspects of the dream are the animal. and it can be like in normal dreams as well, where it's just like there's a woman in your dream and she's coming to you.

00;19;57;08 - 00;20;20;20
Unknown
And Carl Jung believes that the different stages of individuation, the animal animals, would come and help that dreamer, along with, like, what is going on in that process of individuation and in a lucid dream. I guess you can identify this person as being someone who is almost like a gatekeeper or a gateway to like the deeper realms of like the lucid dream.

00;20;20;20 - 00;20;44;19
Unknown
It's someone that feels a lot more than just like an NPC character, or is like it's a reflection of you and it can either be like, good or it can be bad. And yeah, people can be unbalanced as well. Like really hold on to that animal or animals and do it as a sort of protection. So when you asked this dream character, they expressed to you that that's what they were representing.

00;20;44;19 - 00;21;05;17
Unknown
Essentially, I think I knew who it was because I had that background of like knowing what it was before. But, often, like you were characters in your dreams or the animals or animal or whoever you're talking to. They'll often speak in riddles, the metaphors and the riddles. So I guess I just said, like, you're not, you know, ex-boyfriend's name.

00;21;05;17 - 00;21;27;02
Unknown
And he would just be like, no. And I would just be like, okay, well, we don't need to talk about who you really are. Like, that's fine. Let's just like, what's the meaning of life? You know, I love that talking to dream characters is one of my favorite things to do when I'm lucid. And I'll always have these deep, existential conversations and it's like, it's amazing.

00;21;27;02 - 00;21;43;20
Unknown
I feel like I'm getting all this information and all these secrets of the universe is a great yeah, I agree. And there's like because the different characters like, let's say you have a sister who's very independent and you have a dad that maybe like, oh, it doesn't like what you're doing, and you have like a mom that is like, you know, uninvolved or something.

00;21;43;25 - 00;22;02;14
Unknown
All these characters will sort of, like, manifest into your dreams and represent those different parts of your psyche. And they can be good or they can be like sort of negative as well. So they'll like, provide that different dialog from that standpoint of how your psyche feels, like that person represents, if that makes sense. I think that's really interesting.

00;22;02;17 - 00;22;27;14
Unknown
Yeah, that is so interesting. And it really like, makes me understand how dreams can be used as like our internal therapist. So I'm excited to see people take more interest in like actually incorporating this into clinical therapy and counseling and things like that, because it can be really helpful if you really start to look into it. Absolutely. And that is a uni and dream analysis when you're just like you're picking apart just a general dream, it can be a lucid dream also.

00;22;27;14 - 00;22;50;17
Unknown
But I guess in illustrator you're a bit more aware, so you could do that yourself. But therapist or maybe you do it by yourself is just sort of you breaking down the archetypes of what is actually happening in your dream. And then you'll most often sort of like, cool to look at why that is appearing for you, and then you integrate it and that is like, yet profound psychological benefit and healing for someone who doesn't have a lucid dream.

00;22;50;18 - 00;23;14;20
Unknown
I can absolutely do that. So in your program that you're studying, are they teaching you about this, or are you finding your own ways to incorporate your dream work into your clinical practice? They tried to tell me that, like, Freud was the one who discovered, like, awareness and dreams, and that's just not true. That's not true. like, and I wrote in my paper, I was of actually the Tibetan Buddhist was doing it like blah blah blah.

00;23;14;20 - 00;23;38;24
Unknown
Good, good. people before that as well. And that's just not recognized Tibetan Buddhism, there's like a particular sect of people who are really that's what they practice. They practice like meditation and Buddhism within lucid dreams. And Charlie Mosley is someone who, like he studied with them and he was, sort of allowed to go out and talk about like how they actually are using it and, the dream meditations that come from that.

00;23;38;24 - 00;24;03;20
Unknown
And that's an ancient practice. So that's. Yeah, that's not Freudian. Interesting. So I can sense you being a little bit of like a pioneer in Australia. Yeah. Like I'd like to think so or maybe I don't know, but it's just I don't I don't believe there is one objective reality. I think that we, like, individual sort of spheres of, collected memories and encounters and consciousness and to connect with each other.

00;24;03;20 - 00;24;36;27
Unknown
This is going to be something that could help us connect really well. So it is important that it happens. And I guess the way that I would like to do that is, well, it's sort of coming around now and it's coming around in a sort of space I don't really endorse or encourage. And it's like this space of like these like sort of secluded communities that are really sort of esoteric in nature and like, some of them are even just like a bit culty or it's like you've got this group of people that are like, let's do esoteric breathwork, and I'll charge you like $500 to do it, or like, I'll teach you how to

00;24;36;27 - 00;25;00;26
Unknown
lucid dream, but like, you got to come to my group and you've got to pay me for it, and I don't like that. And I want you to stray really far away from that, where I think lucid dreaming and how to do it should be free, and it should be well known. And people who have lucid dreams, whatever age they are, should be able to go to someone and say, this is what's happening to me.

00;25;00;28 - 00;25;20;16
Unknown
And that person should be able to explain that this is a scientific phenomena and you're normal and you're okay. Well, I would like to bring to that is like normalizing it, being outspoken about it and also using it therapeutically as well, and teaching people how to do that. Yeah, I love that. That's a good way to look at it.

00;25;20;16 - 00;25;35;15
Unknown
I respect it a lot when it comes to learning how to lucid dream. I know you started off kind of having some spontaneous ones, but did you ever try any techniques and like what worked for you once you started trying to like induce it further? I think I'm lucky in the way that I didn't really have to learn how to do it.

00;25;35;15 - 00;25;56;05
Unknown
It just came to me and I am really lucky in the way for that. But I've taught other people how to do it and what really sort of has worked for them is to do like Steven, although it's like wild technique or a variation of that where you allow yourself to go into sleep paralysis and you don't find it and you accept whatever is going to be on the other side.

00;25;56;12 - 00;26;21;13
Unknown
Sometimes it's scary and sometimes it's not nice. And people that you have talked to have had success with that method. Yeah, they have like I've had people that have gone into the dream and instantly been sort of like faced with like an animal or animal that is like angry to have been repressed for so long. And this is the reality of lucid dreaming, is that it's not always a super positive experience.

00;26;21;13 - 00;26;47;20
Unknown
It might be really, really daunting. And like that is why we also need more discourse around it, is that we need ways to sort of look at that where we can think like, okay, I know that is actually okay. What happened to you? There was like a learning experience. Yeah. I'm really glad that you brought that up, because I get a lot of this type of comment online about like, oh, I'm scared to lucid dream because sleep paralysis or nightmares or dream characters being mean or whatever.

00;26;47;20 - 00;27;04;22
Unknown
And, you know, I try to tell people that's just a part of it. But owl, what are you your advice for that? Like to encourage people not to be scared of these things. You really have to get in touch with something in you that is more courageous than scared. You can. You have the capabilities of exploring the mind.

00;27;04;25 - 00;27;23;21
Unknown
It's not going to be sunshine and rainbows, like all the time. It's going to be confronting. So you got to find your own personal legend, and you got to find your own guiding influence, your maybe spirit guide, your higher self like your deity. Somebody who. It's not that they're not scared. They are terrified, but they do it anyway.

00;27;23;23 - 00;27;48;17
Unknown
And you've got to really tap into that. And I guess, like the thing that really pushed me was like, fear paralyzes you. Your fear is the mind killer. There is infinite capability here within me and other people, and the only thing that stops us is fear. That's true. And I think we all have a shadow and things to work on in the same way, in waking life, you know, we have good experiences and we have tough ones, and that's just like a part of life.

00;27;48;17 - 00;28;04;17
Unknown
So I don't see why dreams would be any different. You know, it is almost like amplified, like, you know, if you are in a room with someone and maybe they're a narcissist or they're a sociopath, and you can feel that dark energy and oftentimes you can't say it. But in your dreams, if you feel that energy, it will manifest.

00;28;04;17 - 00;28;27;24
Unknown
There is very much physically there. And that's just the physical manifestation because your brain is working in a different way. Yeah. You know, that's an interesting point too, because one thing that I kind of used to struggle a lot was with differentiating like, like if I would have a dream like that, for example, I would kind of question like, is this just my anxiety or is my dream telling me something about this person, like, yeah, would you like differentiate that?

00;28;27;24 - 00;28;51;03
Unknown
Well, like a new analysis, we sort of look at the fact that, like, nobody is like influencing you in these different ways. These are all aspects of your own psyche. So if you've got this shadow in your dream, maybe it's like a friend that you don't really like that is like almost like demonic, scary looking. You sort of wake up and you have a look at that and you say, what part of that resonates for me?

00;28;51;03 - 00;29;09;09
Unknown
Where is that? In my shadow? You know, maybe she's really judgmental. And then you sort of go, why am I so upset about that? Am I the one that is being judgmental and that is a way of taking action against because you can't do anything about anyone else's, like life or experience or how they treat you. Really, you can only set boundaries.

00;29;09;09 - 00;29;37;28
Unknown
It's a way of taking responsibility for your own sort of interpretation of what's going on there. And so when it comes to your lucid dreams, what kind of things do you do while lucid? Oh, God. like, just everything and anything, I guess. Like, I spend a lot of time asking questions and, studying dream architecture. I guess I'm really trying to decipher what the architecture of the dreams are and how I can translate this into something that other people understand.

00;29;37;28 - 00;29;56;26
Unknown
What the levels of the dream and what the different spaces of the dreams mean. And yeah, I guess I spent a lot of time exploring, like what works and what. So what's going to work for everyone? And, you know, math. I think I think people need a map. Yeah. That's cool. Have your do your dreams have consistent environments or are they different?

00;29;57;07 - 00;30;14;17
Unknown
my lucid dreams. Yeah, I'd say so. Like there's the dreams where I'm in a dream and then I become lucid and I have, like, the, you know, there's still the narratives of the original dream going on. And because there's so much in that dream and you're aware that, you know, like dreaming now and, it's a lot more colorful and vibrant.

00;30;14;18 - 00;30;36;10
Unknown
There's more control there. So like, let's say, like, I want to shoot off into space. Yeah, I can do that. But if I'm doing where I'm a sleep paralysis type of dream, where I'm sinking into it, which is a bit more of a quieter space and I think more of a esoteric space where like, more things are able to come to you and you can have deeper conversations that make more sense with various characters.

00;30;36;12 - 00;31;04;16
Unknown
When I'm in that sort of space, it's almost always like I'm waking up in my room and then I can exit out. But then there's the ability and Charlie. Molly also talks about this and his various different types of lucid dreams. Is it the ability to open up a void or portal, or sink down into the floor and go into a deeper level of a lucid dream, and that is always available where you can continue to go down and down a down levels and they become, you know, more fragmented or you become more lucid.

00;31;04;24 - 00;31;23;04
Unknown
I spend a lot of time doing that. If you sort of starting off in it, I guess, like an answer on the side as well. It's like you want to sort of grab something on the ground and pull yourself into the ground, and you want to sink into it, and you maybe want to just like you go into like a waiting period, like a little black void design and you might hear weird things and blah, blah, blah.

00;31;23;04 - 00;31;44;14
Unknown
And then you sort of wake up maybe again, deeper into the dream, but in the same bedroom floor, and you might see more things be like open to more things as well. And yeah, you can continue going from that. So that black space waiting period, I've kind of experienced that. And at first I used to think like, oh, dream's over, I'm waking up and I would kind of mess it up for myself.

00;31;44;14 - 00;32;02;12
Unknown
And then I kind of realize that if I just stay calm and wait patiently and feel whatever's around me, eventually the dream would come back into vision. Yeah. So that's like an interesting way that you've interpreted that. And I think the way that we interpret things or make meanings from things is like what will change the dream as well.

00;32;02;12 - 00;32;25;29
Unknown
So like if I was to say, like, you're not waiting for the dream to come back into focus, you're in like a loading screen that is also like this, void that is open to like, other things coming to you as well. That might change how you, experience that. Yeah. Like for me and how I experience it is like really akin to what Charlie McCoy talks about in his book dreams of Awakening.

00;32;25;29 - 00;32;46;28
Unknown
Where is this, like void? Sometimes it's almost like an Obi where you can see stars or like, you can hear, voices talking to you as well. And sometimes you can stay in that, or other times you can sort of like sink back into the dream. Do you ever find that the dream doesn't do exactly what you're trying to do?

00;32;47;05 - 00;33;09;09
Unknown
Yeah, definitely. I think that, like, you don't want to, like, exert your ego over control in the dream too much because the subconscious has a mind of its own and in the like. A quote from Carl Jung is like we are but ships of consciousness sailing on a sea of unconsciousness. And I think that's a really great thing to take into this, where it's like we, in in the realm of the subconscious, it's massive.

00;33;09;09 - 00;33;28;13
Unknown
It's very much like a where you don't want to fight it and you don't want to, like, make it do things that it doesn't want to do. It's trying to teach you things for a reason. So, like, maybe you have more or less control. Maybe you really want to control. I really want something to happen, but it should let you like see things that you're ready for or do things that you were ready for in that time.

00;33;28;15 - 00;33;44;27
Unknown
So it's like, yeah, try your best to control it, but maybe sort of just allow it to go along and see what you're learning from it there. Yeah, I love that metaphor. I actually heard a quote, I wonder if it's related or if it's a young quote, but when it comes to lucid dreaming, we can usually control this ship, but not the sea.

00;33;44;29 - 00;34;17;03
Unknown
Meaning sometimes the dream kind of has a agenda of its own that we can't necessarily control. You didn't have any, works on lucid dreaming. I don't know if you believed in it or knew of it from what I'm aware, but, like this. Like lots of his untranslated texts, which might, like, have a key to that. But yeah, I think that's like, based on the union or what is you what have you noticed about, like, when we're lucid, sometimes we exert our ego on to the dream, which is understandable, you know, because we do what we want and we take control of the dream and make it go a certain way.

00;34;17;03 - 00;34;47;00
Unknown
But what's the difference between that and a non lucid dream? Do you feel like you're able to get messages more from non lucid dreams? Because maybe we're not controlling it as much. Yeah I think like what Jung says about the unconscious is it's full of like archetype types that influence us on our journey to organization or transformation or individuation or like, these dreams have like symbols from like the collective unconscious, which is just like this big grouping of our ancestral knowledge that has been passed down to us.

00;34;47;02 - 00;35;08;18
Unknown
And it's funny when you mention what you that question, because I really was just reading, like a lot of Jung analysis sort of say, don't have lucid dreams because your ego is interfering with, the process of the archetypes of these dreams that is trying to help you to get where you need to be. But, I disagree with those, analysis when they say I don't have lucid dreams that don't exist.

00;35;08;20 - 00;35;29;04
Unknown
Your ego. Because a lucid dream is a space where you are able to feel interconnectedness on such a level. That is impossible for most people unless you've done like 10,000 hours of meditation and the other thing also is like, just because you're lucid doesn't mean you can control the dream. Sometimes I'm lucid and I don't have dream control.

00;35;29;04 - 00;35;46;00
Unknown
Like there are two separate things. A lot of people don't realize that, and even when I can control the dream, sometimes I choose to just go with it and not interfere too much just to, like, see what I get. And I find that those are some of my most powerful lucid dreams when I just take it in with like, an inquisitive kind of nature.

00;35;46;02 - 00;36;06;29
Unknown
Absolutely. I think, like, I don't think there's like a right or wrong mindset to have. It's all like open to interpretation, but like, yeah, I think that that is the way to go personally where like, you're open, you're open to everything. Yeah, I love that. So when it comes to the archetypes that you mentioned, how can we use like the archetypes to like, understand our dreams and like help us out?

00;36;07;01 - 00;36;25;28
Unknown
Oh, like, you have to do like, a lot of research into it really where you're like, it's kind of like, yeah, it's again, it's really subjective because like, yeah, you could do your research. But for a lot of people, water means the unconscious, it means the subconscious. So if you're being flooded and this is a dream, I have to argue like I'm being attacked by, like just a big wave or something.

00;36;26;03 - 00;36;50;18
Unknown
That means my unconscious is, really overcoming me. It's like I am, you know, mostly acting on impulse because that's what the subconscious does. But for other people, water could have a completely different meaning. Maybe somebody like, you know, had a drowning event and that water symbolizes something completely different. So it's like the archetypes, you have to really do your own self exploration to find out what that means for you.

00;36;50;23 - 00;37;13;06
Unknown
That's the theory of like semiotics, where it's like every symbol and meaning culturally can mean like one significant thing to a group of people, but individually or means something different. Yeah, I love that you said that because dreamwork is such a personal thing, and we have these guidelines of things that can help us, but I tell people not to rely too much on dream dictionaries or googling definitions for things, and it can be helpful.

00;37;13;06 - 00;37;33;24
Unknown
And it's great to study like archetypes and common meanings for things. yeah. But no single dream symbol is universally applied to everybody. I mean, it just wouldn't make sense. Yeah, throw your dream dictionaries out and yeah, for real. Do you have any, like, really cool lucid dreams that you could share that have been, like, really impactful for you?

00;37;33;26 - 00;38;04;10
Unknown
Yeah. Like, well, I've got hundreds really. But like, I guess one that would bring up a, a line of questioning in, in terms of like what is dreaming and what what does it really mean? Is I lucid dream that I would spontaneously sort of put in here. So this was like early on in the dreaming where I'm like in bed and I'm like, I'm going to have a lucid dream, show me something I'm ready to integrate or like look at or like, you know, you have no what you're going to get with the wisdom.

00;38;04;12 - 00;38;25;00
Unknown
And I'm like, going into the sleep paralysis and I'm like going into my mattress and sinking in, and my awareness feels I am, like, floating onto my bed. And then I'm into the void, which is the waiting space. And I'm in there for some time and then I wake up. So this was like in 2022, I think from the waiting sort of a void.

00;38;25;02 - 00;38;44;09
Unknown
I wake up and I'm in a house. It's a Queenslander, which is just like, like really common, sort of like 1960s architecture we have around here. I'm going to Queensland, a house. It's brightly lit. I feel something strange in my body, like a shivering sensation of someone being close. I walk through the hallway and there is a bathroom.

00;38;44;11 - 00;39;05;20
Unknown
Oh actually, this is a different dream. So it was really funny. I was like, oh, this is so thematic. Yeah, that's like a completely different dream. But, in that dream, like, I met my animals and he was just sort of, like, really surprised to see me there in the dream. And he's like, just come out of the bathroom, he's wearing a towel, and he's just like, what are you doing here?

00;39;05;20 - 00;39;23;03
Unknown
And I'm like, what are you doing here? Like, this is my dream. And, at that time, like someone close to me was in hospital and I was like, tell me what happens when we die? Like, I need to know. I feel really stressed out about this. And he's like, you want to know what happens after death? And I was like, yeah.

00;39;23;03 - 00;39;40;25
Unknown
And he's like, I can't tell you what happens after death. And then he says, but you might even like it. He says, you'll be able to tear right into the void and slip right into the inky blackness, just like how you lucid dream straight off. And I will be there to help you. Death is a concept known only to humans and will come obsolete, but for now, get lost.

00;39;40;28 - 00;39;59;09
Unknown
And then it kicked me out of the dream. That's deep then. So those are my lucid dreams. That's so awesome. And it brings up like the idea of that the Tibetan Buddhist used to talk about to is exactly it. Dreams prepares for death. But those. Yeah. And it was really crazy because I hadn't read that. I didn't know about that at all.

00;39;59;09 - 00;40;17;26
Unknown
And then like later on, I was like just sort of looking through and yeah, I came across the Tibetan Book of the dead. I've got a copy now. And what he was talking about was very similar, and I was like, oh, this is crazy, because he basically said like, yeah, lucid dreaming is to prepare you for this, like slip into death.

00;40;17;26 - 00;40;37;22
Unknown
And in the Tibetan Book of the dead, they use lucid dreaming as a way to, prepare for the process that happens after death to escape the cycle of rebirth. Yeah, that's really fascinating. I've been reading a lot about that too lately. But getting into dream work in this waking existence is so important because it makes that transition smoother.

00;40;37;22 - 00;41;04;26
Unknown
I mean, a lot of my lucid dreams have taken away my fear of death, which I don't really have anymore, and I haven't for a while. because I've had similar, you know, experiences where I'm talking to dream characters and they're telling me about what life is and what it means to be born and to die. And they're telling me about how, you know, the spirit world versus the physical world and all of this stuff before I started reading about it in books and like before New Age spirituality started talking about it.

00;41;04;28 - 00;41;22;21
Unknown
So it was really interesting for me to have these types of lucid dreams, like even ten years ago. And it really was not talked about at all. And maybe like this is the theory that it's the collective unconscious. It's like the symbols that we already have within our disposal from ancestral knowledge. Or maybe it's not. Maybe there's something else.

00;41;22;21 - 00;41;44;15
Unknown
So we just don't know. Do you write down all your dreams currently? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because because I realize, like, there's just so much of so many layers of it that I just like, a week later, I'll have another dream and it will sort of really point to something, within the first dream that I was having or, you know, maybe sometimes there's like something outside of the dream that.

00;41;44;15 - 00;42;04;20
Unknown
Yeah, makes a lot of sense in context with the dream. So, yeah, I've learned to write it all down. Nice. What? What, method of dream journaling works best for you. I just wake up and write it down in my car notes, and then. Then I'll transfer it to, like, a digital diary. and I've just got so many that it's easier that way because I can just sort of type in, like what?

00;42;04;20 - 00;42;19;28
Unknown
The dream I'm looking for. And it will take me like to where that was, like where it was like two years ago or like a year ago. So that was nice. Yeah, it's super convenient to be able to just search dreams by keywords. Yeah, I use my phone too. I have an app, but it allows me to search and it's really helpful.

00;42;20;01 - 00;42;38;02
Unknown
What's the app called? The one I use is only for the dream journal, but I also use a voice activated recorder which is called sleep recorder. and the reason I do that is because I remember a lot more when I don't have to physically pick up my phone to type it in and try to remember in the light.

00;42;38;02 - 00;42;54;16
Unknown
So what I do is, before I go to sleep, almost every night, I activate the recorder app, and then I don't have to touch my phone at all. I can just stay in the my body position with my eyes closed, and my voice recorder will pick it up as long as I turn it on. So in the morning I go back and I listen to whatever it picked up.

00;42;54;18 - 00;43;12;03
Unknown
And sometimes I totally didn't even realize that. I mumbled that from halfway asleep I would have completely forgotten. So I get like so many more dreams since I started doing that. And then I go back in and I transcribe the voice note into my dream journal and I type it all out. That's amazing. That is such a good idea.

00;43;12;03 - 00;43;33;23
Unknown
I think I'm totally going to like, integrate that one, because yeah, I think I sleepwalk sometimes too. I think some of that would be very interesting. Something else that I do is I have like a graph, like a chart and it's like 20, 24, like dreams or something, and it's like a bunch of squares. And I have different colors, like Lucid Dream in juice, lucid dream, Non-Injury happy dream, sad dream.

00;43;33;29 - 00;43;51;16
Unknown
And I color coordinate the days of the month so I can see just what the patterns are like. Where when I'm having the most lucid dreams, what kind of dreams are there? And that one works for me as well. I love that taking data about your dreams is so cool, especially when you have pretty organizational skills. I like that, yeah.

00;43;51;19 - 00;44;15;01
Unknown
What do you do with the patterns? Like what have you noticed over time about your dream energies or content? yeah. So like I was having like heaps more earlier in the last two years. And then I got to a point where like, because there was nobody around me that really knew what what I was going through or talking about, and the dreams themselves were getting to a point of intensity where I just felt like crazy all the time.

00;44;15;01 - 00;44;36;12
Unknown
I was really dissociative. This is another thing that if you don't have the right support around you when you're like, doing anything psychotherapeutic or is that you're like, there's a possibility where you can not be very grounded and you can become very dissociative. And, you know, your reality is like, not as stable. I'm not saying that it leads to psychosis or any other sort of like disorders.

00;44;36;12 - 00;44;49;03
Unknown
That's not proven. But yeah, I was getting really anxious about it and I just need to be able to connect with. And I just sort of said to myself, I can't do this anymore. I need a break. And the person I was dating at the time is also just like, you really need to take a break from this.

00;44;49;08 - 00;45;06;23
Unknown
So I stopped having lucid dreams for a little while there. I didn't have as many and and then I started connecting with like you and like other people as well. And it's been happening like more. And I feel more in control and I feel like, you know, like I'm not crazy. This is okay. And then now picking up again.

00;45;06;23 - 00;45;24;18
Unknown
So I guess that was like a little bit of a pattern. There was like it stopped for a minute because I wanted to stop. And now it's like there's ebbs and flows to it, you know? And I think it's good to be able to recognize when you need to take a break, go back into it so that we don't burn ourselves out because, you know, keeping a dream journal and all these things that we do, it can be exhausting.

00;45;24;18 - 00;45;42;09
Unknown
But, you know, we're motivated. So it's also exciting. yeah. That's like that's a big thing for me. Like, I really will just bring myself up because I'm just like, not near to get to the bottom. It's going to help humanity. Like, let's do that and I will I will burn myself out. So yeah, it is. Yeah. You just need to, like, take responsibility for your mental health.

00;45;42;09 - 00;45;59;22
Unknown
And just like if you need a break, take a break. Yeah, exactly. I didn't post a podcast episode for like, four months, and I felt really bad about it, but, like, I just needed, like, a break. And yeah, it re-energized me because now I'm like, okay, I have to do this. I'm like, ready? So I'm excited though, because now I'm trying to do it more consistently.

00;45;59;22 - 00;46;16;11
Unknown
And I don't know, I've noticed, like at first I was just doing this for fun and now I'm noticing, like people are starting to reach out to me like, hey, I really like your podcast. When's the next one? So I'm like, maybe people are listening. Like, I feel like I've been doubting myself a little bit, so but it's it's inspiring you from like where you are right now.

00;46;16;11 - 00;46;41;10
Unknown
Like the person doing this and like doing the work. You don't have any like sort of perspective on what this is for, for people. what this means where there is somebody who is like, accessible and down to earth and is talking about these things from like, you know, the age that we're in, and not doing it in this like, sort of like culty mindset where it's just like, yeah, you need to like, pay for my breathing course or anything like, this is yeah, this is really important work.

00;46;41;10 - 00;47;04;16
Unknown
And I think it is influential. And, you know, you've reached me and now I'm spreading my message. And this is this is good. This is good work. Yeah, I love it and I do I love like just talking about this and doing it for free and teaching people like I'll comment all the time. Like I'm constantly online giving people tips and responding and posting videos and like if you go through my content enough, you can learn to lucid dream for free.

00;47;04;19 - 00;47;23;20
Unknown
And I do have an online course that I've put together. I put all this time in do that people can pay for if that's what they want to do. But I don't force anybody to do that because I have so much free stuff, like you don't have to buy an online course, and even so, like people charge thousands and thousands of dollars for lucid dreaming courses like mine is like less than $100 because I want it to be accessible.

00;47;23;28 - 00;47;49;23
Unknown
And the only reason I'm charging is because I have things on there that I had to pay for. But all my content is mostly free. You know? I think it's good. Like you need like a balance, like you need to be able to support yourself as well. Like I wouldn't provide counseling for free for everyone. I just think like accessible classes and, hope that that, you know, spreads enough of the skills where it's like, yeah, I'll teach you some, like, psychotherapeutic skills and you tell your friends and you everyone learns how to active listen.

00;47;49;23 - 00;48;10;16
Unknown
And that's that's good. You know, as long as I'm, like, able to afford food and yeah, that's good. Yeah, exactly. I'm pretty simple, you know. And my goal eventually is like, I don't want money from people that I'm teaching. I mean, with the podcast, I don't know, maybe I can do sponsors or brand deals or there's other ways to generate income without, like, getting it from your audience specifically.

00;48;10;16 - 00;48;26;24
Unknown
So it's something I'm trying to navigate because I do want to do this for a living. I want to be able to do this mainly as the main thing that I do. So it's it's a weird thing because I'm not I don't like the concept of money, I hate it. I wish everything in the world could be free, but that's just not realistic.

00;48;26;27 - 00;48;46;05
Unknown
Yeah, I'm not know where we are now, but maybe, maybe in the future, maybe when we all start the lucid dreaming where yeah, that'd be cool. But this is a whole branch of something else. But, something you brought up indigenous cultures before, and there is like, something that of the I think, is a good thing to just sort of talk about briefly.

00;48;46;05 - 00;49;09;21
Unknown
And, you know, I'm not like, the most, like, educated person inside of this topic, but there's a branch of lucid dreaming that is used for medicine inside of, like quite a few indigenous cultures and almost plant spirit medicine. And when people hear that way, they most often think of like, oh, plants for medicine, that marijuana, like, you know, that's like almost like, a psychedelic even.

00;49;09;21 - 00;49;30;19
Unknown
And like, you know, that that must be medicinal. That's not exactly what I'm talking about, although it has been used for, like, healing. I'm talking about there are indigenous cultures that use lucid dreaming as a way to connect to the spirit of different herbal plants and heal people, and it is like a really interesting branch of lucid dreaming.

00;49;30;19 - 00;49;51;13
Unknown
And I hope that that is something, along with other psychological integrations, that is brought back, to help us connect with the native environment around us and the way that one can do that is by connecting physically with a plant or herb or something natural that is around them, and asking that spirit permission to like, have dreams about them.

00;49;51;18 - 00;50;13;06
Unknown
And I've had like some success with this as well as esoteric as it sounds. But you can, even if it is just like collective knowledge or collective unconscious knowledge, sort of access things not just about like healing, but other things as well. If you ask the right questions and you ask permission, from like your dreams to understand these topics.

00;50;13;09 - 00;50;41;03
Unknown
Speaking of like the herbs and stuff, have you experimented with any like on regions like dream herbs such as like mugwort or blue lotus? Like, before I was lucid dreaming. Like. Absolutely like I was damiana catnip, lemon balm. Things that were used to like, relaxants and endorphin boosting kind of herbs. But, like, now that I'm in where I am now, I don't like to rely on anything.

00;50;41;03 - 00;51;04;00
Unknown
I think I can do it all myself. And maybe almost when you're taking the herbs, not to say that they aren't effective, they are effective, but they can sort of change the the content of the dream. And another thing that Charlie Molly talks about is when you're taking different sorts of herbs and things, sometimes it disrupts the sanctity of the connection that you have yourself with your own subconscious.

00;51;04;02 - 00;51;18;26
Unknown
So now I either I tend not to I don't judge people that do. I think there's nothing wrong with it. Like you could be connected to that plant and that's like just like a gateway for you and that there's nothing wrong with it. Yeah. I tell people all the time, like, if you're a beginner, you really want to establish your own practice.

00;51;18;26 - 00;51;36;09
Unknown
You don't want to go chasing fast results by depending on supplements or dream herbs or anything like that. It's more for just experimentation every once in a while for your own exploration. It's not something that you think you need to get a lucid dream or a certain kind of dream. So I'm glad you mentioned that word. Yeah. Thank you.

00;51;36;09 - 00;51;54;22
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. Like you 100% are capable. just within yourself. You don't need outside help. So I also like to close off. Kind of. I love to ask people, like, if there's anything on your heart, like, any advice maybe for people in Australia or in general, people that feel kind of alone when it comes to understanding their dreams?

00;51;55;02 - 00;52;15;24
Unknown
do you have any advice for people on how they can kind of awaken that part of them? Learning this is sometimes so important for one's own spiritual journey, but sometimes damaging to. And when you realize that it is so too damaging for you, reach out and disrupt that pattern of like depression and isolation just off of a hand up.

00;52;15;25 - 00;52;35;08
Unknown
And oftentimes that is enough for a connection to begin when you just put your hand up and just say like, hi, like I am in this business, I need help. Like, just to like to me, to you, to like anyone, to like, you know, like any anyone to a friend, to like a family member. Just just ask. Yeah, I love that.

00;52;35;15 - 00;52;51;07
Unknown
And you might be surprised too. Like when you start talking about your dreams, people around you get excited too. Like where I start talking about how I do dream, where people are like, oh, I had this dream. Let me tell you about it. And then they get more comfortable. So like one person at a time where normalizing dream sharing.

00;52;51;07 - 00;53;16;26
Unknown
And I think that's really cool. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Like it takes courage and it takes both to, be the change you wish to see in the world. But it's slowly but surely it's happening. And thank you to everyone who doesn't know listening to this story, you guys are all capable as well. So please leave a review on Spotify, Apple, or whatever platform you're on, even if it's on Google or directly on my website.

00;53;17;04 - 00;53;38;21
Unknown
So if you made it this far and you love the podcast, leave a review. Love you sweet dreams.