Ep78: Peeking Along Dreams: The Mysteries of Past Lives

In this episode of the Dreamworld podcast, Emmy van Swaaij, a sign language interpreter, shares her unique experiences with the characters in her dream experiences. Emmy discusses her vivid dreams, including memories of a past life as Oskar Baum, a blind musician, writer & playwright. She recounts discovering details about Baum through "peeking along" into his life, and how these experiences have influenced her current life and work. The conversation delves into the nature of time, consciousness, and the possibility that our lives and connections transcend linear time.

Resources mentioned in this episode 

Seth Material Jane Roberts
Movie: Being John Malkovich

Transcript

Peeking Along_mixdown
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Emmy: [00:00:00] Even when I just talk about it with you now, and I think, Oh, oh, this will be broadcasted, of course. And I think, Oh, do I want that, you know, out in the world? But I always am a bit, a little bit scared when I talk about it. It'll reach you it's supposed to reach. Yeah, I was so excited to, to discover that I was not the only one with that strange kind of.

Picking a long perspective. 

Amina: So thanks for joining me and welcome to the Dreamworld podcast. What brought you into the world of dreaming? Yes, my name is Emi van Zwaaij 

Emmy: and currently I work as a sign language interpreter where I'm specialized with interpreting for the deaf and people with disabilities.

who are both deaf and blind and their dreams always have interested me since I was very small because I've always been a very vivid dreamer even as a as a child and I was a bit of a dreamy child was always sad of me. Yeah, what [00:01:00] got me into writing them down was when I came in contact with the books of Jane Roberts.

Um, she is an author of the Seth books it's called, the Seth material. And in those books, there was a lot of information also on dreaming and I had never heard of the term lucid dreaming for instance and I don't recall if I read it in her books or if I read it in books that I got to read because of her work I got more interested in in writing down my dreams in order to remember them so Um, when I did that, I discovered that they had so much to tell me.

And I thought, wow, there's this whole world out there that I, well, I, I was aware of, but that I never studied in so much detail as I started to do when I was about 17, I think. So that's, uh, that's how it all got me started. And then I, [00:02:00] Read some books by Patricia Garfield and well, really any book on lucid dreaming, for instance, that I got my hand on.

I was very excited when I, when I got my first lucid dream. I remember that the first thing I did was to try something that I wasn't allowed to do in, in real life. So to say, I was too young for a driver's license in, in. Europe, at least in the Netherlands, you had to be 18 in order to do so. So what I would do in my first lucid dreams was, you know, drive my parents car.

So that's how it 

Amina: got started in a way. I love that. That's such a great thing about lucid dreams is doing all the things that you can't do. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

Emmy: Yeah. And I realized soon after that the dreams started to change a bit. They became more serious and there was One moment, even though I was still exploring in a playful way, but I remember that [00:03:00] at the time I was, I think it was, it had to do maybe with focusing my attention that by driving this car in a way I was driving my own consciousness or learning to steer.

And the only way That I was able to give shape to that was in this playful form. And I remember that in one of these lucid dreams, uh, there was a classmate of mine who was older than me and who owned a car, such an old timer. And I asked him, can I, can I get in your car? And he said, yes, you can. But I, I think there are rather better ways of transportation in a dream.

He said. And then he explained to me that you can just think of something and then you're there. And that really was a big 

Amina: change in, in my dreams. That's awesome. So how often do you have lucid dreams now? Well, at the moment I have a little bit of a 

Emmy: dry spell. I used to have [00:04:00] them at least once a month, but sometimes there will be.

periods in time where I had more of them in a row and then for a while none of them. But I always write down all of my dreams, so also my non lucid dreams, because I think they're very valuable as well. But I will have periods, for instance, when I read An online, um, dream, lucid dream magazine that I get into it again because I think, Oh yeah, that's so much fun.

But sometimes life catched up and I don't know, I just didn't pay good enough attention maybe to try, to try and get some more lucid dreams again. Maybe after this, this interview, I will, I will be very inspired again to open up to that again. 

Amina: Yeah, I think it's normal to have like ups and downs with it, you know, like anything in life.

So I'm sure that that it'll come back at some point. Yeah, I think so 

Emmy: too. There has been a period where I thought, oh, it was so intense. All the [00:05:00] explorations that resulted from lucid dreams that I had that maybe my my consciousness thought, well, just have a little bit of a break right now. And I was writing a novel and spending much time on that too.

So it's, it's interesting how it has ebbs and flows, I guess. 

Amina: Yes, definitely. Definitely. You know, what's interesting too that I noticed and you were talking about this on another podcast episode that I listened to and I found it so fascinating about how there's different kinds of dreams, you know, even within lucid dreaming, there are some that are just, you know, our daily life, memory processing things, and then there are some that just feel deeper, like past lives or parallel lives even.

Or, you know, just going through two different dimensions and traveling to these deeper places. And I find that so interesting because I also did a podcast episode previously about children that have like vivid dreams of being in a [00:06:00] different body or being in this specific life, like young children, like three years old.

And then they confirm details about the dream to be true of someone that had existed in real waking life. Um, like back in the world war ii or something that a two year old wouldn't know I've heard that you had some of these experiences as well of just being able to dream of you know Somebody's life and then having a connection to this counterpart of yours.

I would love you to tell me about it Oh, yes, I would love to 

Emmy: and it's something that started rather soon after I was digging into having lucid dreams more often. And what I noticed was that I very often had dreams that took place in different timeframes, different eras. And they were so vivid that I thought this must be real.

I mean, it's, this is a little, a little bit too detailed. And I remember it's the most vivid experience that I [00:07:00] had in this regard. where I gave myself this suggestion prior to sleeping. I said to myself, what if those theories that I read about that our consciousness is present in, in multiple spaces in, in time, multiple places in time and space, where is my consciousness?

When I'm not focused on my Emmy self and I added a little strange sentence of, but it has to be practical for me right now for my current existence, whatever I get to see and what happened that night. It was in 2011 this that this happened. I fell asleep. And I had a series of very vivid, lucid dreams.

And in each one of these dreams, I embodied a musician and, you know, I just fell into the situation. And it was as if I peeked through the eyes. [00:08:00] of this other person. I think I once explained it using the movie, uh, Being John Malkovich. I don't know if you ever saw it, but in that movie, people are peeking through his eyes and it's a very bizarre movie.

But I remember the time that I saw that movie, I thought this is exactly how it feels when I have such a, what I call peeking along lucid dream. And what happened was that in One of these lucid dreams where I was this musician, I was a man playing the organ in a synagogue. And I was very surprised to find myself in that setting.

And I'm, as is the case in Lucid Dreams, you're very much into the moment. I think at that moment, you know, what's, what's, what's going to happen now and I was playing the organ really well and I cannot play the organ at all in this lifetime and I was just amazed at how vivid this playing was and I was enjoying it and I was pondering so I had my own thoughts at this [00:09:00] moment as well as the thought of what happens to be a man.

I thought that in synagogues there were no organs. I'd never heard of it. But then I, I catched myself having this thought and I thought I just have to allow this experience to unfold, whatever will happen and pay attention. And then I noticed that there was a woman sitting next to me and then there seemed to be a time jump.

And then I found myself in the body of this same person in a hospital bed. And it was very, very vivid. And I couldn't see anything apart from slight differences in light. And I was very frightened because I was in a lot of pain. And I thought, Oh, what will happen with my wife when I die right now? And I was very worried, the man that I was.

And I thought, Oh, what will happen with her? You know, I cannot leave her alone. And there were doctors coming in and out of the room. you know, in a hurry. [00:10:00] And my thoughts were only with, with my wife and with, with being annoyed at the same time that the doctors didn't take into consideration that I was blind, because I was blind, apparently, in the dream.

And, you know, I was very frustrated with them because they, they would just appear in the room and not introduce themselves to me and just, you know, touch my body and, and, and I was very tired of having to explain time and time again of, of, you know, I'm blind. Can you please take that into consideration and just introduce yourself?

So I was fretting about that as well. And then I woke up with the name Oscar Baum in my head. And then a couple of weeks later, I had. Another lucid dream about the same man, you know, and I didn't ask for to have a dream about this individual. It just came naturally, you know, and I had this very similar vivid experience in the hospital bed.

as [00:11:00] this man, the same setting, same scene. But then I spoke for the first time also in this dream. And I said in clear German, because I hadn't spoken out loud, you know, to anyone in the, in the first dream. And I said in German, Ich habe kein Kraft mehr, to somebody who was sitting next to me. And, uh, that I couldn't see, but that I knew was there.

And it was all so very vivid and real. And because I always write down my dreams, I noticed that in the months that came after that, I always had more dreams about the same man. And I was very shocked when later on I found out that not only that there existed a man with this name, Oskar Baum, but also that all of the details that I dreamt about actually happened.

This man was blind and he played the organ in a synagogue and it took years to find out that he actually played the organ in a particular synagogue. [00:12:00] It was really amazing. Because we, we went to, my husband and I, when we found out that this man really had existed. I of course was very curious, you know, who was this man?

And the details of my dreams were so very intricate and felt so real. For instance, I also had a dream about this same man in which I had died as him. And I was in some kind of other reality. And there was an another man who also had been blind his whole life and who was going to the same institute for the blind as the man that I dreamt about.

And he said to me, as I was this man, don't you want to see how your wife looked like? And I said to him, well, what if I don't recognize her? I will be so embarrassed. And he said, you will recognize her. I said, no, what if I don't recognize her? I will be so embarrassed. And what [00:13:00] happened then was that he, he encouraged me to join him.

And we traveled through time and space. And we ended up, and this was quite, really took me when it, when I realized what was happening. He took me to this concentration camp. where this wife of me in that reality was, you know, situated. And he just said, you will find her. And I looked in, in this barrack with all this woman.

And then suddenly I saw this woman and was so overwhelmed with emotion. Because I could see, and I could see how she looked like, and I woke up crying after this dream, and I wrote down very detailedly what I had seen, making comparisons to people I know in my waking life. I mean, how do you describe someone who you've never, uh, met, you know?

You take a kind of images from, from the people, [00:14:00] you know, she looks a little bit like this woman. She's very short, has curly hair, uh, has, has gray eyes. You know, I, I wrote down everything that I could remember. And then it took me and some researcher many, many years Uh, before we found a picture of the wife of Oscar Baum and she looked exactly like the woman that I saw in that dream.

So it was really wild in a way, a wild experience. And because I had written down all my dreams, all those years, I was able to discover that even before 2011, when I had the first dreams that I recalled of this man. I already had dreams in 2008 where I was visiting an institute for the blind in the Czech Republic where he was from.

So, you know, I 

Amina: don't know if it's at all clear. That's so fascinating. Wow. Okay. I have a few questions. So when you are having these dreams, are [00:15:00] you aware of your Emmy consciousness at all? Or are you fully immersed in Oscar? What is really 

Emmy: interesting and what I've given many thoughts. Is that with all of these dreams, I have my own perspective as Emmy that is still there in the background, aware that I'm dreaming and I'm completely in this other person's body.

And it feels like me so much so that I sometimes forget that there is a difference between the one and the other because I remember in one of the first streams about Oscar bound that I had, I felt so completely myself in that dream. And it was a very strange experience because When it started, I thought that I as Emmy had died was quite scary in a way, because it was before I found out that I had a heart condition that created heart stops.

It's, it's a whole different story, but it's possible that at the moment I had that dream experience that, that something [00:16:00] more was going on than just me sleeping. What happened was that my daughter was still asleep in her crib and my husband got up because he had to go to work. And I thought, Oh, I will just lay in my bed for a little bit longer.

And what then happened was it felt as if somebody had hit me on the head. It didn't happen for real, but it was a kind of very strange falling sensation that I had. And from one situation to the next, I found myself standing in my parents bedroom in a town. miles away from where I live and they were asleep in their beds and it was just their physical bedroom and I was just mesmerized I thought how can I be here when I just was in my house in Elst and then I got very scared because I thought or I'm now dreaming or because I felt so very vivid And, and awake in a sense, or perhaps I have died [00:17:00] because it was such a, such a strange awake feeling that I had.

I was so lucid and so aware that it frightened me in a way, and then I, I panicked for a little bit. I thought, Oh, what if I've died? I mean, there will be really a, a pity, you know, when that would have happened. And then I calmed myself down and thought, no, it must be a dream. And if it's not a dream, then I cannot change it anyway.

I mean, then, then I have to accept the fact that I've died. And what then happened was that the whole room seemed to vibrate, as you can have when, There are extremely hot temperatures with an asphalt road, for instance. Suddenly I found myself in this landscape that was completely made out of light. It's the only way I can describe it.

I mean, it sounds a bit cheesy, but that's what it was. And I flew through this place and I, I hugged a man and it was [00:18:00] Oscar Baum. And as I did that, we became one. We were just one in the same, bodiless, formless dot of consciousness flying through that landscape. And I was so emotional in a way that I felt so good that I thought, man, this is amazing, this place.

I mean, look at, you know, the beautiful landscape because I could see light, but within this light, there was a kind of landscape that I could see. observe as we flew through that at a dazzling speed. And he said, he minded to me, this is where I am when I rest a bit. And then he said to me, I will see through your eyes that what I've never seen.

And then I found myself all of a sudden feeling completely like myself. Walking towards a door in a town and the door was such a big building with with those two doors aside to each other with big windows in it. And [00:19:00] I felt more like Emy, like I always, you know, I just felt completely like myself. I had no idea that I could have, could be in a different body.

And then as I was pushing open the door, I saw my reflection in the mirror. And I was really startled because I had expected to see my Emmy self, but instead I saw this man with one eye poking in one direction, the other one straight ahead, clearly blind. And I opened these doors and it opened into a music hall.

And there was an orchestra rehearsing and it was all so very real. I cannot even explain how real it was. It was as if you've all of a sudden find yourself in a completely different setting. And I saw a snippet of, of that. And I spoke a little, you know, I saw a conductor turning around as I entered. the room.

And it was so very, very vivid. And then more of these scenes took place. I don't [00:20:00] recall all of them anymore. But what I, what I found so striking is that I felt so much like me, like myself. And yet here I was in this completely different body, experiencing things that to this man are his now. you know, after he said what he said to me.

And that really gave me lots of, you know, brain cracking thoughts. Like, how can I be aware of myself? And at the same time being aware of somebody else. I mean, there must be a third perspective that is above all that, that can be aware of all of these things at once. And that's really mind boggling.

thought, isn't it? 

Amina: Yeah. Wow. Like the concept of the oversoul or like the higher 

Emmy: self. Yeah. It's like the one perspective in no way takes up space of the other perspective. They can all be there at once. And what, what is interesting is that I've had more [00:21:00] of these peeking along dreams. And in them, you know, I've been such completely different people.

I remember being a Black woman, you know, somewhere and that same double, double perspective was there. But I also had dreams where it was Oscar Baum and I could see because I was speaking along with him. And I, uh, he had these thoughts like, what, I can see how is this, you know, there was this confusion within us.

Like, am I just tricking everyone? Am I not really blind? You know, it's not always as clear or as, as focused in, in every dream. But it really made me aware that there are dreams where we apparently can access other aspects of our, I think, our personality structure. I don't know how to phrase it in a way.

I was very excited when I heard Robert Wagoner talk about his experiences. To [00:22:00] me sounded very much like alike. I always wondered, are there other people like this? And of course, because Oscar Baum happened to be a researchable person, it was very fascinating to learn that during his lifetime, he was very much interested in dreams.

And he knew about lucid dreaming because he wrote about it in a newspaper article. 

Amina: Wow. I love the connections, like he was blind and now you work with the blind and he played the instruments and you like the instruments. It's really fascinating. 

Emmy: Yeah. And also, it also made me think like, what if I never wrote down my dreams?

And I only lived my life like, you know, following the impulses that life gives you. And I started learning sign language and start working to learn braille and to, to work with people who are deafblind. I would have done exactly the same work as I'm doing now. I would just not be aware that there is this other lifetime where I, I experienced the [00:23:00] other side of this medallion.

in that way. Uh, you know what I mean? And, and I guess if those other people that I dreamt about, if they would be, researchable for me because very often I only have a first name. For instance, I know there is some dancer, uh, not a famous one, but someone who does it as a hobby named Aurora somewhere in the United States in the eighties.

So that's also very strange because I was born in 1982 and I had dreams about this other lifetime taking place during the same Time for an overlapping timeframe with my own. So it raises many questions. It's like, what is the nature of time? Does it all exist simultaneously? 

Amina: And um, Yeah, that's fascinating.

Yeah. I definitely think time is not linear how we think it is. And that's fascinating too. It makes me wonder like how, what fragments of me are, am I currently living [00:24:00] through? And maybe that's why we feel so connected to some people or some stories. Um, you know, cause we just don't understand that we're really are connected to them.

Yeah. Yeah. In a very interesting way. 

Emmy: And the thing is also, we don't have to be aware of these connections in order for it to fulfill its whatever it is. For instance, if I had never been aware of Oscar Baum, I would have still have done somehow the work, not, not exactly the same, maybe, but in big lines, I would have done the same things that I do right now.

And sometimes it's complicated because you are aware of these other perspectives while also trying to live your own perspective. And sometimes You know, I found it very lonely at times, uh, being aware of, of this also, it's not always easy to deal with, with situations like, like this. It's, do you know what I mean?

It's, it's, it's definitely, I mean, I feel like 

Amina: people might make you feel crazy or something, but [00:25:00] it's cool. Like, that's why I love talking about these things. So people can feel more like normalized with these types of experiences. 

Emmy: Even when I just talk about it with you now, and I think, oh, oh, this will be broadcasted, of course.

And I think, oh, do I want that, you know, out in the world? But it is already out in the world. I mean, I've, I've talked about it before in other interviews. The trouble I always felt with the Oscar Baum thing is that the only reason that the things are kept of him in a, in an archive is that he was close friends with Franz Kafka, of whom I'd never heard before I had these dreams, which might sound bizarre, but it just never came into my life because I, I never had a school in which German literature was important.

It just wasn't in my world at all. And I don't know if you know Franz Kafka, I guess so. I don't think so. Oh, that's even better because in Europe, [00:26:00] he's quite well known as a writer from back then. And he lived in Prague, just like Oscar Bowne did. And when his friends wouldn't have kept the memory of Franz Kafka alive, also, Oskar Baum would have been completely forgotten.

There wouldn't have been any archives to research in the first place. Wow, it's 

Amina: great that you talk about it so you can keep these stories alive and honor these other parts of you and these other lives. I think that's really great. And yeah, don't even feel weird about it or anything, because I love telling these types of stories on the podcast.

Emmy: You know, Oscar Baum was Jewish and his whole family was murdered. There was nobody left of his family after the war and some years after the war. His only son died because of the explosion of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946 or so. So there was nobody. around that, that whole family was, was gone.

And, [00:27:00] you know, I spoke to people who had known Oscar Baum personally. There's one man still alive, who is a literature professor, who used to be a literature professor, and he's now 102 years old. So he knew Oscar Baum personally, and it was such a strange, bizarre experience to talk to him. First, I didn't tell him, of course, why I knew so much about Oscar Baum.

But it's, it's very hard to explain to people what it meant to us when it became clear that I knew things that I couldn't possibly ever know about Oscar Baum. And where he would ask me, how, how do you know this? And then we had to talk about it. And for him, uh, I mean, he lost every, so many people during World War II.

To see that somehow consciousness might, you know, there might be some kind of proof that consciousness survives tragedies like this. I think it really helps him. Or it helps to take away a little bit of of some pain [00:28:00] or some fear of everything is lost when we die. 

Amina: For me it helps. Yeah, me too. My, my dreams have helped with the fear of death too because I know that my consciousness will continue to new adventures.

Emmy: Yeah, exactly. And even is simultaneously at this right moment having experiences perhaps that we of course cannot be consciously aware about. at all times, but sometimes it can really, um, help. Yeah, I always describe it as by, by writing down these dreams experiences. I mean, we don't understand everything what happens or, or what the correlations are.

You know, am I really Oscar Baum or is there something else at play here? At least I can pick up on him. But does it mean that my consciousness is linked to his consciousness in a, in a very straightforward manner, which I guess I, it is, but we don't know for, for certain, of course, but at least we, we can see [00:29:00] symptoms of something going on, you know, just like you can see the wind, but you cannot hold it in your hand, but you can see the, the effects of the wind in the tree.

I mean, in a similar way, we can see the effects of consciousness with experiences like this, even though we don't understand how it works. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. At least make notes, I guess. Wow. Yeah. And what's really bizarre now is that they make in Germany, they've made a television series about the life of Franz Kafka.

And they also display Oscar bound there. And it's for me, it's very strange experience to watch things like And also it's sometimes very upsetting in a way at the same time because you cannot talk to people and say, well, that's not really how it was because I guess I know how it was because, you know, you cannot talk to people about it in such a fashion, I guess.

And it's sometimes difficult. 

Amina: Yeah, totally understandable. But I really [00:30:00] appreciate you sharing these stories with me. I mean, it's honestly so fascinating. And I love like hearing about this because I think it's important for people to realize that we're more than our physical bodies and maybe reality isn't what we think it is.

Yeah, exactly. 

Emmy: And, and sometimes it's, it takes a bit of courage. I must say, there was also a time that it frightened me a little bit. Like, am I going too far? Is it healthy to be so aware of other lifetimes, for instance, or how we phrase these things to be what they are, we don't fully understand, but is it, is it healthy to be aware of it?

Because many people say, well, I'd rather not remember these things. And it has not always been easy to, to be aware of it, but at the same time, I wouldn't want to miss out on this opportunity to know about it. 

Amina: Yeah, I think if we're open to it, you know, some people block out and they're scared of the unknown or they don't remember their dreams.

So it's great that you have such a good [00:31:00] connection with your dreams. Do you still write them down and like keep a dream journal? 

Emmy: Yeah. Yeah. Every day. So, uh, well, what I do is I, uh, first I used to make handwritten notes and then I would type them up. But the two. hours. And now I just speak them into my phone.

And, you know, I've used AI recently to catch up with my dream notes though, because they're very short snippets. I can, Let AI type it out for me and then correct those notes and it saves me lots 

Amina: of time. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I do that too. Well, not AI, but I write, I speak it and then write it out later.

Yeah, I was so happy 

Emmy: because I was so far behind, uh, typing them up that I thought, you know, if I have about three dreams a day and I'm so far behind typing them up, how am I ever going to catch up? But now I get a 

Amina: little bit of help from technology. I love that. Do you ever like forget that [00:32:00] you have a recording and then once you see it written down, then you remember the dream?

Yeah, I do. And also 

Emmy: sometimes it's, it's amazing how many of these dreams have proven to be precognitive later on. And I've dreamt about my, my new dog when my old dog was still alive, for instance. And because I wrote such detailed dreams down, only later on when I, when I re read them, I thought, huh, that that's about my new dog.

I have that dog now, that black, strange, small dog of mine. But I had no clue, of course, that at the time that it was a precognitive dream. 

Amina: Yeah. Precognitive dreams also shows us. Dreams are just all present time, past, present, future, non linear, you know, so cool. Yeah, exactly. They 

Emmy: give us very clear examples.

I've had very strange other category of dreams as well, in which I helped people who were passing to go from one [00:33:00] reality to the other. Wow, that's cool. I don't have them that regularly, but there had been a time where I had that once a month. To me, it was very strange. I thought, what are we doing when we are asleep?

Amina: You know, do we have a side job? I think that all the time. I feel like our soul does work in the dream world, you know? Yeah. 

Emmy: Yeah. And because I, even in the, in those dreams that I had, I sometimes had an intern working with me to, to get people who were dying, you know, to explain to them, Oh, this is your new reality now.

Oh, that's some good work. Yeah. And I also had dreams in which I was dying in some other lifetime. It was a dream in which I first experienced as it was a lucid dream just like I had with the Oscar Baum dreams and in this dream I was a man and I was in this kind of cold house that kind of small mansion and it was mine but it was not very [00:34:00] uh comfortable in a way because it was a different time frame where there was no central heating and I was dying as this man and there were women sitting aside my bed and frantically dapping my face with cold cloths to get my temperature down and they kept dapping with this cloth on my head like just stay here you know and They didn't believe that I was, or they didn't want to believe that I was dying.

But I said to them, well, this is it. You know, I will die. I know. And then this woman said, no, no, you won't. I said, I know that I'm dying. And then all of a sudden I was out of my body for a second as this man. And I traveled with that consciousness to a different place in that same time where my son, so the son of this man, was galloping a horse to the mansion where I was dying.

And I was so [00:35:00] angry with this young man. I thought, Oh, and now he's getting too late. He won't make it on time. And I was so angry with him being, you know, I didn't have, nice thoughts towards my son in that time frame. And then I whooshed back into my body again, and this woman kept dapping my, my head. And I said, I'm dying.

And then all of a sudden, I got this urge to, to stretch my hands out. into the sky as if because I was seeing and I couldn't believe my eyes a kind of being that I could only interpret as an angel. And as that man, I didn't believe at all in angels. I mean, and I thought as this man, I'm hallucinating.

right now. I see things that cannot be. But at the same time, I had this undeniable urge to stretch my hand out towards this being. And then all of a sudden I was pulled out of my body by this, whatever it was, didn't really have a [00:36:00] good shape to speak of. I just thought it was a non human kind of thing.

being that I could, as this man, only interpret as an angel, in which I didn't believe. And then this whatever being it was said to me, look for something who you know. And then I found myself in this very modern kind of China in the future. So not in my current time frame. But even more into the future.

And there I found, I, I saw so many people that I didn't know. And then all of a sudden my eyes were focused on one particular man sitting next to a fountain. And I thought, Oh, that's, that's, uh, the cousin of my husband. That's, uh, Taco is his name. That's Taco there. I know him, you know, and I walked over to him.

And I said to him, Tako, you've been dead for two weeks. In reality, he's not dead at all. I mean, he's alive as I am right now, hopefully. [00:37:00] And, um, I said, uh, did I die? And he said, yes, you did. And it was such a strange experience when I woke up from this, because I thought, what was happening here? In the dream, I died as one man.

I was pulled out of my body by some kind of something and then I time traveled to another time in space and time where I was, I had also died, but then in some other form. So as if it was all, you know what I mean? I mean, it was very wild experience in that regard and brings up so many questions. What is happening here?

You know. 

Amina: Yeah, that man must have been so confused to find out that his reality was not what he thought it was. 

Emmy: Yeah. Yeah, and it also made me wonder, you know, when I told this dream to a friend of mine about the stretching of the arms, she said, oh, my mother did exactly the same thing when she died. And apparently many people I have this unstoppable urge to stretch their [00:38:00] arms in this way when they die.

Yeah. If I hadn't written down all my dreams for all those years, I would never have seen, for instance, instances where I more often dreamt about the same individual. And when you laid these dreams together, it makes a very cohesive life story. And at least one of these persons was researchable. And then I think, well, then if it is the case for this man, then maybe most likely also some of these other experiences are, you know, connected to actual existing individuals somewhere in time and space as well.

Amina: Definitely. And imagine all the ones before things could be written down and put on the internet. There's probably some that are just lost in, uh, there's no records of. Yeah, for certain, I think. 

Emmy: And it could, you know, if, if science was up to it, you know, it's of course important to see, you know, because I also have dream dreams or how do you call them, you know, different kinds of dreams in which I, I don't know, [00:39:00] I need to go to the bathroom or where I'm just.

You know, that are more like fiction, in a sense, and also very use useful, but that are clearly some kind of other kind of constructs that I don't understand completely. And also, I remember, for instance, one dream that I had where I was drinking lots of beer, and I thought, man, this is This man must be an alcoholic, but then later on, I found out that during the Middle Ages and so on, there was far less alcohol in beer and they drank it instead of water.

So he was maybe not an alcoholic at all, but with my current day perspective, I would completely misinterpret this situation. 

Amina: Yeah, interesting how perspective like affects our view on things and expectations. 

Emmy: One thing I wanted to share is something that fascinates me to this day. And that is when I had a dream on Oscar Bowne where I really [00:40:00] actually died.

I mean, I had many dreams dealing with the hospital situation. And then I had one dream in which apparently I had slipped out of life as him, and I found myself laying on my back in a beautiful, beautiful field. Very cheesy, but very heavenly in a way. I felt so calm and so nice, and I peered up into the sky as I was laying on my back, and I felt very comfortable.

I hadn't realized I had died. I just thought I was dreaming. And I could see in my dreams because Oscar hadn't been blind. his whole life. So when he dreamt, and he wrote about this in this book on dreaming, because they interviewed him on how blind people dream, uh, I was laying on my back and I was enjoying the clouds.

I looked at the clouds and I thought, what's, what's that for? A strange cloud up there. And it was as if the cloud came [00:41:00] towards me, moved towards me. And I thought, how, huh? How can that be so odd? And then I had the same experience as I described earlier, the arm thing where I tried to reach out to whatever was coming at me and arms, or it looked like arms, came out of this strange cloud and they grabbed me by my, my hands and I got pulled out of my body that I was, my, my dream body that I was in and I was very, uh, into that moment where I just whooshed upwards, upwards, upwards, and then I came to a certain point where I couldn't go any further.

And I whooshed through this, this kind of invisible ceiling is the only way I can describe it. And I just, as I passed this point, I thought, I'm dead. I cannot go back now. I just died. But I was very [00:42:00] calm about it because I, I, I was at peace with this situation. And whatever being had pulled me out of my body.

I mean, I couldn't really see him. It was a very strange, I don't know, cloudy kind of Someone who had trouble taking shape, is the only way I can describe it, told me, I don't know if he used words, but, you know, it was communicated to me at that point, and they said, trust your eyes, learn to trust your eyes, and then I was at a plane, where people were, who were blind, their whole life, or a big part of their life, in the life that they had just ended.

And they needed to practice being comfortable seeing again. It was very odd. And I had to be there for a bit. The next thing that happened was that I had the sensation of falling, falling, falling, falling, falling down, which was a bit strange. And then all of a [00:43:00] sudden I found myself in a memory. of Oscar Baum, and something he had experienced as a blind person, but had never seen.

So, and it was very vivid and very detailed. I found myself standing on a staircase in the Institute of the Blind, and somebody had pulled the bell, the doorbell. You know, it was such a pulling thing where you pull something and then there's this big bell that will make noise. And the strange thing was that I was completely blind.

Yet, I could see. So I was, you know, just experiencing whatever I saw at that moment. And it was a memory of myself as him. And I walked the stairs, downstairs, and there was a boy behind me. We were about the same age. And I was very annoyed with him because I thought, I want to be at the door. Because I want to do this.

I was very protective of my task that somehow the school board had given me, that I would guide [00:44:00] parents who were trying to decide, will our blind child go to this school? You know, to serve as some kind of guide, to guide them through the building, and to explain them about the school and how it all worked.

So I opened the door, And I'm very happy because I was first, so I could do this task. It was very childish of me, but this is what it was. So I opened the door, and there was this couple. And they were all dressed completely in, you know, the last century, around 1890 or something. Uh, clothing, well, it must have been a little bit later, it must have been around, I think, 1901 or so.

They had this, this typical clothing from the time the woman was wearing this hat. And the strange thing was that as they looked at me, they, they looked at me like you do when you, when you see a blind person. This, this father was still struggling, I guess, with accepting the fact that they're [00:45:00] Child was blind and he looked at me with a little bit pity in his eyes Because I wasn't facing them straight.

I had trouble Focusing where they were standing even though I at this moment could see them So I was a bit confused as as Oscar at that moment like huh? Why can I see this but I I completely went with the with the memory as I was observing it with seeing it now for the first time. You know, I, I still recall very vividly the lips of this man.

It was a very pronounced feature in his face. And I, I admired the hat that the woman was wearing. And, and I, you know, I completely went with this, with the events of that memory because I told them in German. I said, can I, you know, welcome at, at this institute and please enter, I will, I will guide you through the building.

And then we came to a floor where there were a, a [00:46:00] hallway, you know, it opened up to a hallway. And this man asked me about the, the, the practicing. Of the piano, um, are there enough pianos in the house to allow all, all the students to let them practice? And I said to this man, well, you know, we don't have, have enough pianos, but we have very strict schedules, so that every pupil can study, so we have to be very strict, like you can practice till this time and then the other one.

But we manage, I said. And, um, I was very proud, in a way, showing them the building. And they let older students do it, so that, you know, they could ask questions, and, oh, see how good our students function. And then I woke up, and it was so real, and I thought, well, this must have been an actual memory. And what fascinates me is like, whoa, maybe it is true.

Maybe when you just [00:47:00] lived a whole life with a particular handicap, if it's being blind or being missing, missing your legs or whatever, maybe there is some period of adaptation to a situation where you don't have to hold on to that handicap any longer, but you're so used to perceiving the world in such a fashion that it might take some, um, some time to, uh, learn how You know, how to trust that kind of optical possibilities for yourself that you need to let go of those old blind perspectives, because you're so used to it, you have to relearn in a way to, to trust your eyes for, for some moment in, in the endlessness of time, uh, maybe not everyone who had a handicap in their lifetime need to get used to it again.

Maybe some people. You know, very easily, um, able to switch certain perspectives. I don't know, but I found it very fascinating that I, um, experienced it in, in my dream. [00:48:00] 

Amina: Wow, Emmy, I'm honestly just so mind blown by your experiences and your life journey. And I'm also really fascinated by this concept. Lately, I've been thinking a lot about reincarnation and the possibility of having past lives and future lives and maybe this not being our quote unquote last time on earth.

But at the same time, the whole concept of time and space puts a big wrench in that thought process because if we are only experiencing linear time in our physical incarnation, Then past lives and present and future lives is an illusion, and truly all lives are happening simultaneously at once, outside of space time continuum, if that makes sense.

So you have this connection to your past lives, present lives, they're all happening now. Even if the quote unquote past life was in the 18th century, that is a concept, it's not an actual time period linearly like we think it is. So, 1942, [00:49:00] 18th century, all these different time periods are happening right now in some dimension somewhere, I guess?

I don't know. And then I'm even more mind boggled by the concept of parallel universes and infinite probabilities of different versions of our current life. So I really don't know how all of that works, but what I do know is that sharing stories like this is really important. If you're interested in this topic, by the way, I have another podcast episode about reincarnation that you can listen to.

It's one of my first ones with Jim Matlock and a few of my other friends. Lucid Dreaming Group Friends, and I believe it's episode nine, so definitely check it out. I'm gonna start doing more types of content like this, because I'm also really interested in near death experiences, things like this, that are more than just dreams, but are related to our consciousness adventures.

Emmy: What I wanted to tell you was that when I had those first dreams about Oscar Baum, where I also knew his name, because I had dreams years prior to that, So my dream [00:50:00] notes showed me about this same man, but I didn't know. I couldn't connect it to anything, of course. Not having any name, just dreaming about being blind so very often, where I had troubles with my eyes, and I couldn't see anything, and I, I always thought, oh, that's because of REM sleep, and maybe I tried to see with my sleeping eyes, and it doesn't work, and I was completely confused at that time as to why I would dream and not be able to see.

Later on, I discovered why that was or why it possibly could be. And that was that I had these, what I called, peeking along dreams. And sometimes I can see in these dreams, and sometimes I, I can't. Which is very fascinating to me. As if, in some occasions, I can see because I as Emmy can see, even though the body of Oscar Baum can't see.

Or maybe we are [00:51:00] in some kind of I don't know, sphere of attention where, as a blind person, you can see, yeah, what you normally can't, I don't know how that works, but when I just had these dreams, and I discovered on Wikipedia, it was this very small article, because I had researched, who was Oscar Baum?

Because I had a first and a last name, is there possibly a man by that name who is also a pianist? Because the dream had been so very vivid of me in that synagogue. So I typed in Oscar Baum pianist in Google, as you do, and then there was this very small Wikipedia article about Oscar Baum that stated that this man was a friend of Franz Kafka, who was a very famous author in, in, in Europe, in, in Prague.

And, you know, I only knew of Franz Kafka, uh, because of this saying that we have, that something [00:52:00] is Kafkaesque, but I'd never read anything by him. Uh, I had done a schooling education where you didn't get German, or at least, I, I had one year of German and I ditched it, because I didn't like the teacher, and I felt very uncomfortable speaking German.

And, um, later on I I gather that it might have had something to do with the fact that Oskar Baum became blind because kids, uh, mobbed him because he was reading a German book. And, uh, in that time, there was this divide between Czech speaking people and German speaking, the German speaking minority, uh, that was very often also Jewish, uh, that lived in the Czech Republic.

or bohemia that it was back then. And so those little kids thought that it was a provocation that, that he, Elsker Baum, spoke German. So maybe that also added to my, uh, not wanting [00:53:00] to have anything to do with the language. But what was interesting is that, that Wikipedia article stated that he, he was blind, just like is in my dream, uh, that his wife accompanied him everywhere because, you know, it's, it's nice to have, you know, guiding dogs were not the thing back then.

They were not there. Uh, and he loved his wife dearly. So, um, she would take him to places and help him navigate. Uh, he worked as a theater and music critic, which also explained the part in the dream where I was visiting a music hall. And, um, I was mesmerized. I thought, who, who was this? And did also the other details in my dream overlap, uh, in the dreams that I had with his actual life?

Or is it just coincidence? So then I went to Prague with my husband, and there I went to the, uh, Jewish Museum, because I thought, well, he was a, uh, [00:54:00] a rather, uh, known writer back in those days, and a good friend of Franz Kafka, maybe there's something left. And then they showed me the archive, and what was striking was that when we arrived in Prague, so we, we, we hadn't visited the archive yet, we had to walk to our hotel, like you do when you, when you are on holiday, and then, We passed this huge synagogue in a very small side street called, what I now know is called Jerusalemska Street and Jerusalem Street when you translate it.

And I felt so emotional upon seeing the building and I knew, I thought, this is the synagogue where he played the organ, this is the synagogue from my dream. And then, it had just been opened to public, uh, in 2008. We visited in 2011. So, we went back there later that week. Again, I felt so emotional when we entered the building.

I, I was [00:55:00] very embarrassed because I had to cry. I couldn't stop crying. I thought, this is ridiculous. Stop, Emmy. Uh, I was very embarrassed because I was so emotional. And when I gathered myself again, I mean, I spoke to the keeper of the synagogue, the one who takes care of it. And I asked him, did Oscar Baum possibly play the organ here?

And he said, no, no, I don't think so. I mean, no, I don't think so. And I, I asked if I could see the organ and they said, no, no, it's, uh, we are restoring the organ at the time and, and you cannot, uh, you cannot go up there. So I was a bit disappointed and I was very confused as to my emotional reaction because it was so intense and I was so embarrassed because of it.

Especially when they said, well, most likely he didn't play the organ there. So I was very upset. And, you know, I started second guessing everything that evaporated later when we visited the archive. [00:56:00] And they asked me, you know, are you a researcher on literature? How did you get here? I said, well, it's a very strange story, but I had dreams about a man, and I wondered how much of that is actual.

Fact, or if it's just a coincidence. Then they asked me what I dreamt and I told them and they were so Shocked and they they showed me the archive and everything that I spoke about for instance how he died and our friend sat next to him and Was described in letters that were there in in the archive That were sent to his wife after Oscar Baum had died for instance his last You And so many other things.

I mean, I had one dream where I spoke about his son and I named him Leo. And then we found out that his son was called Leo. And, and there were so many of these things that he was very much into dreaming. That he even added to a book on dreaming. Uh, and that he had friends in the blind institute who were lucid.

One [00:57:00] of them was a lucid dreamer. And he He, he wrote about it, in newspaper articles, so I was like, what? Um, I was very surprised, and then, it took some years of me asking people, you know, do you know where Oscar Baum played the organ? I would really like to know, and they all didn't know. And then, there was a German researcher, Pip Guth, she's called, and, uh, she's into genealogy and everything, and she was, uh, accessing an old newspaper, the, from the Prager newspapers from that time, uh, from 1906.

And it was the opening day of the synagogue where I just spoke about. And there, in that article, was described that, uh, they were very, uh, festive and very happy, and it was a great service, and there were girls with flowers and everything, and they were very proud of their organist because, um, [00:58:00] he had to take a lot of effort to know all the pieces by heart because he was blind, and his name is Oscar Baum.

And that was such a, such an important moment for me because I thought, Oh, I was right all those years. I picked up on something that was true, even though some people didn't know yet that this was indeed a fact. You know, it really helped me to trust the whole thing a bit more when we feel certain very strong emotions.

with these events. One other small anecdote that I wanted to share with you is in one of my dreams that were on Oscar Baum, many people had asked me, did you ever dream of Franz Kafka? Uh, when you have these Oscar Baum dreams, because most people know Franz Kafka, but they don't know Oscar Baum. And they're very curious.

You know, curious if I ever dreamt about him, and I did, but not very often. So, [00:59:00] one particular dream that I had was that I was Oskar Baum, and I was sitting in a kind of cafe like setting, and Franz Kafka was seated next to me, and we were talking. And he was talking to me to cheer me up because somehow I felt down.

And he did that in a typical fashion by telling me a riddle to entertain me. He said, let me tell you something. And he said, there is the door of the bad and the door of the good. And through the door of the bad can come good things. And through the door of the good can come bad things. They are both made from the same wood and they end up in the same room.

This is what he told me. And then I woke up and I thought this was such a strange thing. I mean, it was such an [01:00:00] interesting riddle. And I've also found it a very kind gesture of a friend, uh, to try to cheer you up. Because most likely something really bad happened, or, or at least as Oscar Baume was quite down at that moment.

And this kind of riddle cheered me up in a way in which you can, you can think, okay, well, sometimes bad things happen or good things happen, but ultimately they all bring you to the same room. I don't know, it really helped me, at least in the dream, to feel better. And, and it also showed me how Franz Kafka possibly really was.

It, it, it felt very authentic to me. I had some interesting experiences last night or no, two nights ago it was. And then after these experiences, I listened to your podcast and by coincidence, which is, I guess, not a coincidence, but this is [01:01:00] how these things go. It dealt with exactly the matter that I dreamt about.

And that is, I had such a peeking along dream, as I call them, in which mirrors Yeah, I had a big part to play. And then, you know, I listened to this recording and I discovered that there are more people with experiences like this. And that fascinates me, because after my experience that I had two nights ago, I had some insights into how it might work.

With the speaking along dreams and why you sometimes merge or are able to merge with another person as happens in these dreams. What happened was I had this dream, a lucid dream, where I visited a family of a man who passed away exactly one year ago at that date. And I, I don't know why I visited them. I dream about them rather often.

It's, it's, uh, a man called. Jan Roth, and he's a [01:02:00] singer. He used to be a singer in the Netherlands, uh, but he died, he passed away. And sometimes, you know, I followed him and his family on Instagram. So that's how I, I was aware of their lives, uh, without being friends or whatever with them. I don't know them personally.

So it really surprises me. First of all, that I dream about them quite often, even though I don't listen to his music regularly. And I only occasionally see things about their family. Through Instagram, but that's it. But I guess there's some kind of counterpart like action going on there. But what happened was that in the dream, I visited their house and there was this mirror and it looked almost like an elevator.

kind of thing where I went through this mirror with his son so that we were able to visit Jan Rot in this, you know, out of time area. And as we went through the mirror, [01:03:00] we came into this kind of lobby where there were many people, including Jan Rot, I guess, and his son went there and I was distracted and I saw this woman who just had passed away.

And as I saw her, we merged and we became one. And this is something that happens quite often in these kind of dreams. And it always makes me wonder, are we connected, this woman and I? Are we the same person somewhere in time and space or not? Why is this happening? You know, all these kind of questions.

But what happened was I merged with her, and then I spoke as her, with her, you know, in, in this one situation where we were one, and as her I said, oh, I died, okay, and then I spoke to this man who was also in this landscape, and I said to him, oh, then I'm going to look at memories, right, and this man said, yes, you will, and then, I, I got this very twinkle in my eye [01:04:00] and said, Oh, can I change things, you know, that, that happened or not?

You know, am I, will I be able to change the course of events as they happened? And I don't recall his answer, but what happened then was that we indeed. visited her reality, her memories, and she worked, or she was a student in this case, in some kind of situation where they did experimentations, uh, medical experimentations on animals, which was a really surprising subject to me.

I, I didn't expect to, to, to end up in such a situation. But what was disturbing for her was that she was not really part of the group with her students that were there. Uh, she felt very left out and it was a very unpleasant memory for her. And then I ended up again inside this strange lobby where we were before.

And then There was this [01:05:00] mirror and I was just curious, how do I look like now? Because as I merged with this woman, she was, you know, a white skinned, light hair, I don't know. I don't know anyone who looks like this, like her, in waking, in a waking state. But as I walked to the mirror, I was really startled because I looked so completely different from what I expected to see.

And that was either my own image or this woman where I merged with. But as I looked inside the mirror, I saw a completely different face. I was a black woman with very smooth skin. That really was a detail that, that I thought, wow, I have such smooth skin. And I was, of course, startled because I looked so different from my own physical appearance.

And then as I looked in the mirror, I kept merging, you know, morphing, so to say, into different personas or different ways that I looked like. Different appearances, you say, right? And [01:06:00] I was really, really mind blown by what was happening. I mean, it's, it's, it was a very intense experience. And then I woke up, and then I had some insights as to, because I kept pondering, why am I merging with this woman?

What is happening here? What could be happening here? And then I got this analogy and I thought, huh, that might make some sense. Because you have these pens that you can fill with ink. I don't know how you call them in English. But you have certain containers that hold the ink. That you can fill and refill.

In the Netherlands, it's the case that you have different types of brands of these pens, and sometimes these containers only fit into a particular brand of pen. So they don't fit in all of them, but they fit in some of them. And I guess with our personalities, it's the same, you know, that. We can [01:07:00] merge, I guess, I don't know if this is true, but this is just a thought that I have right now, is that we can merge with some people because they are part of this bigger or this bigger structure.

We are of the same brand, so to speak, and then we can't merge with all people because sometimes our personalities don't fit in the system where this other personality is a part of. But, you know, in between our own system, we can merge and mingle and you can, you can change the ink, so to speak, in this fountain pen.

That's the word I was looking for. Fountain pen, uh, like structure. And then express yourself and your ideas in this, in this body or in this, Shape that, uh, suits you. I don't know if this makes sense at all. 

Amina: Yes, that makes sense. And that's a very interesting analogy. Actually. I really appreciate you sharing all of your [01:08:00] experiences with the audience and with me, and you mentioned earlier that you wrote a book.

Can you tell me about it? And you know, anything else that you're working on that you want to promote? Well, I finished 

Emmy: the novel. So I'm now looking for a publisher. It's a novel that I've based upon my dream experience about Oscar Baum. and my ideas about it. But the whole novel is from the perspective of his son and I changed all the names so that it was fiction.

Now I tell about it so everybody knows now, but it's this man died very young because of the explosion of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. When he comes into this landscape of the afterlife, he discovered that his father is already totally, completely focused on another lifetime that plays, takes place in my lifetime as, as Emmy in a way.

And it explores the way that People are afraid to be forgotten [01:09:00] and that there are still ways to be, not to be forgotten, but that it has consequences for the people involved when things are remembered. And that's a little bit where the, where the novel is focused upon. I'm at the same time, um, working on a biography about this Baum, because there was so much material in the archive that we thought, oh, it might be very interesting to publish.

And because I knew Braille. I could transcribe all of the Braille texts that were in the museum that were written by Oscar Baum. Wow, that's great. So that's, that's what I did for the museum in Prague. And to me, it's a very bizarre perspective of having possibly written these texts in a different century and now trying to preserve them in this reality.

I mean, it's, I don't know, it's, it's, it's very fascinating to know that maybe things you do now will be very useful to you later. 

Amina: [01:10:00] Yeah. Far, far later. That's so fascinating. Even though you might not remember. I love that you have that connection and that you're continuing to honor, you know, his life or your past lives or whatever you want to call it and continue doing that work.

I feel like you're aligned where you're supposed to be. 

Emmy: I hope so. Yeah, I try to, it always brings more questions than answers, I guess. These are solutions in consciousness, I'm very happy that that there were more people who are also exploring, uh, lucid dreams and, and. you know, what is happening there and taking field notes of their experiences so that, you know, we might be able to understand a little bit more of what is actually happening.

Amina: Yeah, I love that too. You know, people are talking about it more, science is starting to research it more. I'm excited for when your book is published, so please keep me posted, um, so that I can, you know, read it and buy it. Yeah, 

Emmy: I 

Amina: will. 

Emmy: Thank 

Amina: you. 

Emmy: And, um, yeah, I would love to [01:11:00] hear If you ever had experiences like, like this, or if there were other people who have these kind of peeking along dreams, I hope to one day write an article about, about it.

Amina: I want to recommend to you, um, one of my podcast episodes, it's episode 44, it's called dreams and the multiverse, um, with one of my friends that came on her story of her past life dreams is very fascinating. You might enjoy listening to it. 

Emmy: Oh, yes, yes, I will check it out. I mean, it's, it's, it's very encouraging that other people dare to open up about these things.

Yeah. I mean, it will be nice if it was a bit more mainstream. Maybe perhaps there will be a time where it is and people think that we ever believe that it was not possible to have these kinds of experiences. 

Amina: Yeah. I think this is the beginning of the next paradigm shift and people will start to awaken.

And there's hope. It's always going to be skeptics and non believers [01:12:00] and whatnot. That's normal. And of course, you know, I've, 

Emmy: I've been skeptical as well, especially in the beginning where I thought, you know, what's this, maybe it's just all coincidence, but there was too much evidence at a certain point that something must be, be going on here.

Amina: Yeah, definitely. I mean, it could totally, like when something like this happens, it could totally shift somebody's whole world on what they think. It could be a lot to, to process. So, 

Emmy: yeah. Yeah. And I think also when, when somebody never had such experiences themselves, it might sound too outlandish to 

Amina: even take seriously.

Exactly. Yeah. I just really appreciate you for your kind energy and just being so open. with your dream experiences and telling me about it. Yeah. Thank you so much for inviting me. Yeah. I 

Emmy: just hope it's, it's helpful for other people because it's at the same time. I always am a bit, a little bit scared when I talk about it.

This is a very [01:13:00] nut case. I mean, 

Amina: I just put stories out there and I let whoever. wants to, or is meant to stumble upon it, they will find it and, you know, and then I randomly get emails like you emailed me like, Oh wow, I listened to this episode and it really touched me, you know, it'll, 

Emmy: it'll reach who it's supposed to reach.

Yeah, I was so excited to, to discover that I was not the only one with that strange kind of peeking along perspective.