EP79: Exploring the Phase: The Future of Lucid Dreams with Michael Raduga

In this episode, Michael Raduga, founder of REMspace and The Phase Research Center, talks about his extensive research and innovations in the realms of lucid dreaming and REM sleep. Raduga discusses his efforts in creating devices to induce lucid dreams, control real-world technology via dreams, and enhance the intersection between the dream world and reality. We highlight both his dedication and radical personal experiments, including self-neurosurgery to test brain stimulation during sleep.

Relevant Links
Michael Raduga's Publications
Read The Phase Free online
Michael's Instagram 

Transcript

Amina: [00:00:00] Michael Raduga is the founder of REMspace and the Phase Research Center. He researches and develops innovative technologies for lucid dreaming, REM sleep, sleep paralysis, and more. Michael Raduga is the author of many books and scientific papers in peer reviewed journals. That being said, it's an honor to have you on the podcast.

There's so much to talk about. I've read your book. Both versions of the phase which I have the new one right here I know you have a long and inspiring story of how you made it from your hometown to california and everything you're doing now So I want to give you the chance to introduce yourself and tell me how did you first get

interested in studying these altered states of consciousness 

Michael: I mean, first of all, thank you for having me on the open podcasts and, um, uh, I'm trying, I will try to give you as much interesting things as possible about lucid dreams because it is the most interesting thing in my life. And for example, I'm 40 years old [00:01:00] and I've been practicing it since I was 16 years old.

So, uh, and I do it and I started this topic only because it is the most interesting thing in my life. Not because my life is boring, but because it's, it gives you much more opportunities in your life. So it started, uh, pretty, um, usually, uh, when I was 16 years old, I, woke up and I couldn't move. So, and so it was the first time when I experienced sleep paralysis, but I didn't know about this phenomenon in general.

So I thought that something bad was happening to me. For example, my first thought was that I was dying because you just cannot move. And I thought that that was the end. I'm going to die and something like this. But then I. I remember that all those stories about alien [00:02:00] abduction started very similarly.

People couldn't move, then they levitated, and that thought was even more scary for me because I was afraid about aliens, even more than dying. And once I started to think about aliens, I immediately felt levitation. And, uh, at that moment, I was 100 percent sure that they, uh, they were abducting me at that moment.

So it was very scary. I felt limitation. I was still paralyzed and I went through the glass, uh, outside of the building and then everything ended. I just woke, woke up immediately in my bed, but I was 100 percent sure that. They were aliens, they just, uh, erased my memory because I could not explain what happened to me.

So that's how it started. [00:03:00] But you should understand that, uh, maybe for two years, uh, when I was talking about that particular case, I was talking about aliens. I was sure that they were aliens. But then eventually I experienced another sleep paralysis. And another one, uh, and it came to my mind that maybe, uh, there was something in me and maybe it was not about aliens.

And I started to pay more and more attention. I started to read books about astral projection, uh, out of body experience, uh, lucid dreaming, and so on. Eventually I managed to, to control the state, maybe, uh, it happened to me once per month, then once per two weeks, then more and more often. So I started to learn how to control it, but I still was sure that it was not in my [00:04:00] brain because it felt so real in perceptions.

That I could not believe that it all was happening in my brain. It was too real as I thought for my brain. But so I, I believed that I was traveling out of my body. I was traveling in different dimensions, something like this, but I was very curious about possible opportunities. What, what would I do with this?

And for example, uh, if you believe that you leave your body. You understand that, for example, you, you should be able to journey in the real world by your soul. And it's, it means that you can try to test it. And that's what I started to do. For example, I was trying to visit somebody. I was trying to pinch somebody in real world, and then I was asking them.

So I started to do a lot of experiments like this. [00:05:00] And for an unknown reason, none of them worked. I tried everything,  like cards. When you choose, choose a card and put it somewhere and try to see which card it is. And so I tried everything, but it did not work. And, uh, after a couple of years of trying, I was very persistent. It came up to my mind that it was something different than I thought. 

Amina: Yeah. I love the persistency and dedication. So where did those experiments, how did it evolve? I know that you did years of experimenting, even like illegal experimenting, and you got a lot of people to help you with this. Can you tell me a little bit about how you started researching?

Michael: Back then when I was a kid, I thought that smart people, smart, uh, scientists, Or other smart people would study this topic and I would just use all the data, all the discoveries and so on. [00:06:00] And, uh, but eventually I noticed that there, there was no big moves, big achievements. This area, I just didn't see any progress in this area.

And it's came up to my mind that nobody wanted to make it. And if I wanted some progress in this area, it came up to my mind that there was only one way to do this, to do all those studies by myself. Of course, there were a lot of studies, but. I had different, uh, view on which studies we would need because I was a practitioner.

Um, because when you communicate with scientists, I'm not a scientist. I'm just a researcher. I'm a practitioner and researcher. But when you communicate with scientists, very often, they are not practitioners and they have a very different view on topic. They,  in my opinion, they don't understand real perspectives of this topic because they don't experience it often.

So in my case, To pursue all those goals, uh, I needed to do them by myself. So eventually started to, uh, do science. It didn't work. Initially, I could not publish my papers. For example, 10 years ago and more, uh, I was conducting studies, but I could not publish them because they were, uh, Um, they weren't managed properly.

I couldn't write, uh, articles and so on. So it took me, uh, quite a lot of time to learn how to conduct studies properly, how to write articles properly, how to publish them in peer reviewed journals. So it was quite a long journey. 

Amina: Yeah, yeah, that's an amazing journey. And what about, what are you doing today in the FASE Research Center?

Making [00:08:00] history. Can you tell me a little bit about what you're doing these days? 

Michael: Right now, uh, we've been relocating, uh, our work, and from Russia to California, where I'm here, and uh, I closed my lab in Russia approximately 18 months ago. Then I spent 20 More than a year in Kazakhstan, because it was the nearest place where I could get my visa, my green card.

And by the way, I was granted green cards specifically to relocate my activity, my studies here into the United States. And now I'm finally here. So our main goal is to pursue goals. Uh, which are obvious for any practitioners and, uh, the, but the main problem is that we have to develop new technologies for this.[00:09:00] 

And, uh, for example, right now, when I talk to you, I see a lot of course as some, uh, uh, tools, some gadgets in front of me on the table. We develop them, uh, by ourselves. So we have a team of engineers, a hardware engineer, software engineers, because. Uh, to make new discoveries in our direction of we need new technologies.

And that is why a scientist usually cannot do this because, uh, you have to be very motivated to invest a lot of power resources in developing new technologies and other scientists, they are limited. By what they can use right now, for example, if you can, you can buy a PSG, this for polysomnographic, uh, studies like EEG and so on, but it is very limited.

You cannot. Adds new functions to it. And right now we're [00:10:00] developing new technologies and right now we, uh, we are tasting the newest device, which will allow us to do way more than we were able to do just a couple of years ago. Actually, I cannot share with you right now what we are doing because, not because it's a, Secrets, but because I'm just afraid to say something and not to accomplish this goal, but, uh, I can say just one thing, for example, uh, back then in Russia, we were able to control smart, smart home from lucid dreams.

We were able to control virtual car. From lucid dreams, we were able to transmit music from lucid dreams into reality in real time in our lab. Also, we were able to, uh, read speech in dreams in real time. And, uh, we were able to do this, uh, two years ago with our old, uh, [00:11:00] Apparatus and now imagine what we can do now, because, uh, we, we've developed something new.

So, uh, all those studies, uh, sounds amazing, but imagine what we could do right now, if, if all that's the, those studies are old already. 

Amina: Yeah, that's fascinating. So the technology you're working on is not only for lucid dream induction, but also for controlling things, technology from within the lucid dream.

What are some practical applications of being able to do that? 

Michael: So, uh, you're right. I'm focused in two directions. First of all, how to control lucid dreams. And it is crucially important because until we develop technologies, uh, something like a button for lucid dreaming, uh, this practice won't be [00:12:00] widespread at all.

Ever because it requires too much efforts for people. People, uh, used to entertain themselves very easy. Just you take your smartphone and, uh, take talk YouTube, anything like this. It's very easy, but for lucid dreams, you have to invest time efforts. It's hard. And until we develop technology. Technologies, which would allow people to experience it easily.

Uh, lucid dreams won't be spread widely, um, in population. Uh, and it makes no difference how cool it is, how perspective it is until it is hard to do. It won't be widespread at all. So it is our, it's one of our direction. And, uh, uh, because I have a hole in my scalp and my skull, it means that I'm very persistent in this direction as well.

Uh, it's, we can talk about it later. And our, uh, [00:13:00] another direction is to. Unite, uh, dream world in reality together by technologies. That is why we try to control real world from lucid dreams. And it's so, uh, we need to develop technologies to induce lucid dreams easily, and also we need technologies to unite, uh, these two realms together.

For example, when we conduct our studies, uh, I participate in them as well, very often. I try not to do this because, uh, it's harder to publish studies if you conduct them and participate them as well. So, but you may understand that it's hard to find practitioners who could induce Lucid dreams with a lot of courts, uh, on them and so on.

That is why I participate in our studies sometimes, but, uh, without any technologies with a lot of course on [00:14:00] me, uh, it's not a problem almost to guarantee result every night. And most of people who participate in our studies can do it, uh, with, with many cores on them, different apparatus, up to three different gadgets on them in a lot of cores.

Uh, they can do it, uh, every night, a few times per night without any help. So, uh, actually you can reach this level of efficiency without any technologies. Uh, but there are two problems. If you want more. Um, there's a just natural barrier. You cannot overcome it. So, uh, you can, uh, achieve lucid dreams almost every night and many times per night, especially if you use techniques upon awakening.

Yeah. And, uh, people in our lab do this, but if you want more, you [00:15:00] cannot rely on your own, on your brain, on our nature. It's just impossible. That is why we need technologies. But until. You can until this level, you can practice by yourself easily. And there are, there's another problem, uh, that's some people can just, uh, physiologically can not easily induce lucid dreams.

It's, it's hard for them. Uh, usually, uh, we talk about males, uh, who sleep a little. Uh, who cannot fall asleep easily and usually these, these kind of people cannot practice lucid dreams for them. It is very hard. Uh, it is very, usually it's very easy to understand, uh, immediately when you communicate with a person about the potential practice.

For example, if a person sees a lot of dreams every night, can sleep [00:16:00] more than eight, nine hours easily, it is so easy to, um, to teach this person how to lucid dream because everything is ready for this. But for some people it is very hard and that is why we need technologies as well. So, because for them, whatever they do, whatever they try, uh, it won't be easy.

And we need technologies for them as well. 

Amina: Yeah, that's great. I mean, I'm excited to see how it can help people and have more lucid dreams. I think that's important. And you said something else about combining the dream world with the waking world. What does that mean? And what does that look like? How can that be beneficial to 

Michael: just very quick example.

When we, in our dreams, in lucid dreams, basically we communicate with our subconscious. And for example, we can, uh, get some information from it, uh, and, [00:17:00] and it would be useful, but, uh, very often people forget it. Uh, and just, uh, and that is why people sometimes, once they get some insight from their lucid dreams, they try immediately to wake up, just not to forget, uh, what they, uh, received.

And so we need technologies to store this information, to transfer it immediately. To into real world, for example, and it's just a small example. And there are a lot of opportunities how we could use dreams in real world and vice versa. For example, you would start doing something in your real life, even before you wake up, or you could do some, some type of work before you wake up, or I can guarantee you that in the future, and it is.

Inevitable future. I, I think that lucid dreams will be conquered by our civilization sooner or later. It's just inevitable. It's just a matter of time, uh, because it's such a perspective, uh, direction to evolve for our civilization. That's, it will be managed sooner or later. And in this case, I can guarantee you that there will be some occupations.

Some professions which could be, uh, performed only in lucid dreams. Uh, so sometimes some types of business, sometimes of activity, uh, that could be possible to, to do only in, in dreams. And in this case, we need technologies to unite these worlds together. 

Amina: You can sign me up for that career because I would love that.

That sounds really cool. Um, so you really proved your passion and dedication when you implanted a device into your own brain. Can you tell me about this? Why did you do it and how are you feeling now? What has been the result so far? 

Michael: First of all, I don't have any [00:19:00] consequences. Uh, only sometimes when I touch my head, I feel it, but I don't feel it by myself.

Uh, there's no consequences. Uh, I'm in great shape. I exercise a lot, a few times per day. So it does not affect my life at all, uh, right now. But a year ago, there were cords that were, uh, popping up from my head and it was very dangerous. Why did they do this? Uh, first of all, they should understand that. To conduct this, that this particular study, uh, I was, uh, I started preparation a few years ago, and I thought that we would do it in a normal way, how all studies like these usually, uh, are performed.

Uh, but, uh, once again, I had to abandon my laboratory in Russia. I lost all [00:20:00] financial resources. To, because as you may imagine, is this quite expensive, uh, adventure. So I lost my lab. I lost any resources and I found myself in a, in a different country, uh, without any certainty about my future. Uh, so, uh, I hardly could pay salaries to my team, so I couldn't even think about new studies.

But this particular study was mine, the primary, the primary study for me. Uh, the idea was, uh, is to send signals into dream without awakening. Because right now, the biggest problem is that in, believe me, we have tried it many times in our lab, a hundred times, that even if you detect, if you see REM sleep, And if you try to send visual or sound [00:21:00] signals, uh, any, any kind of signals in 90 percent of cases and even more people just wake up.

So if, even if you send signals during REM sleep in laboratory condition, most of the time it doesn't work. It works rarely. It works only if you wake up and perform the indirect techniques, which are performed upon And, uh, but you cannot send signals into dream world because people just wake up. And the idea was to try to send signals, uh, directly into your brain and to, into dream world, and we needed to check this hypothesis, would it work?

Would it wake me up or not? And the answer would provide us with very, uh, unbelievable opportunities for future technologists. In this direction, because we would know can [00:22:00] we send signals directly into dream and would it wake you up or not? Um, so it was my primary study. I was focusing on it for many years and suddenly I lost Uh, all, uh, possibilities to conduct it, but I didn't give up and I decided to do it somehow, even when I had no, no resources.

And, um, once when I was looking at a mirror, uh, just one idea appears in my mind. Would it be possible to do it by myself? And it was a very scary idea because, uh, I would never imagine anything like this, of course. And it was a very scary idea. And I tried to forget it. I tried to try to forget it, but it didn't work because [00:23:00] I immediately knew that it was the only chance.

To test the hypothesis, uh, because I knew that, uh, eventually I would find myself here in California and it would be even more expensive in a lot of bureaucracy to conduct studies like this. And so I knew that I needed to do it somehow back then in Kazakhstan. And because no rules, nobody would control me.

Nobody would know this. And it took me a few months of preparation. So it was, it was just, let's do this. Let's drill a hole in my head. No, it took me a few months of preparation. I did it very carefully. I was training a lot of sheep heads, dead sheep, of course. And I was watching a lot of neurosurgery, surgery videos.

So I was preparing a lot, developing technologies for this, because, [00:24:00] uh, you cannot just It puts some cables in your brain in the specific, uh, electrical impulses, uh, to, uh, also you should know, uh, what type, uh, what section of your brain, what part of your brain you should stimulate. You should, you, you, you cannot drill a hole in any part of your brain.

So it was quite a key. complex, uh, issue for me, but, uh, it took me a few months of preparation and then finally I did it. It was the most scariest thing, of course, especially first, maybe 30 minutes. It took me four hours to accomplish, uh, to, to insert the electrodes, uh, onto my motor cortex of my left hand and this then, uh, we had A whole month of experimenting with it.

And we did find two things. First of all, when you send signals directly into your brain, it does not wake you up. [00:25:00] So once again, if you are REM sleep, uh, and if we give you lights, or sounds. Mostly you just wake up. You don't see or hear the sounds in your dream. You just wake up. That's how our alarm clock works.

We just wake up. But when you send signals directly into your brain when you're asleep, It does not wake you up. And it means that we can develop technologies that may send signals into our brain when we see dreams and it won't wake us. So it is the first thing as a second thing. Uh, we observed that we can indeed send signals.

And I was, for example, um, I saw in, in a lucid dream, I was conscious. Um, that's, uh, my arms, my arm was controlled by, uh, from, uh, from reality because, [00:26:00] um, because our, another scientist, one of our scientists, he tracked REM sleep. He saw, uh, my consciousness and REM sleep and so on. And once he saw it, he sent, sent signals.

into my brain. In once, at least once I observed how my arm was moving without my wish in the dream. So we, so we saw that we can send signals. It does not wake you up and it means that we can develop technologies in this direction. Now we know for sure that it works. And, uh, it doesn't mean that, uh, everybody, every practitioner, uh, will need a hole in your, in your skull.

No, there are, there are many ways to do this and, uh, but we needed to check it and to check it, uh, for sure we needed to stimulate brain itself directly. Because, initially, I had some ideas how to do this, uh, without. [00:27:00] Drilling somebody's head, but then it came up to my mind that if we would fail, I wouldn't know why the only way to know the truth was to simulate the brain, my brain directly.

So that's the story. And believe me, it's not the end of this story. Um, I just needs more time to continue it. There are a few ways how we would develop this technology further. And, um, in some cases, for example, we are planning to do this, we are planning to work on it right now. Uh, we are going to work, uh, in both directions, uh, stimulate the brain itself directly by using different implants.

And also we are going to use other ways to stimulate brain without surgery. As you understand, it is almost impossible to sell, uh, implants. Brain implants for lucid [00:28:00] dreams. It is just ridiculous. So it could be used only in specific cases, for example, for people who are paralyzed. Something like this, but if we talk about, uh, general population, uh, we need to develop technologies which would help us to send signals into dream, uh, into brain directly and, uh, we're going to work in this direction as well.

It's not easy. As it may seem, because, uh, there are a lot of ways how it would look like, but the main problem is that when we try to stimulate brain, it is very hard to do even when people are awake. And imagine a sleeping person and how, how is this hard to stimulate a specific part of the brain, how to target this particular area and so on.

But I can guarantee you that there will be devices, effective devices, because you can, as you [00:29:00] know, there are a lot of devices, uh, which, uh, could potentially be useful for lucid dreaming practice, but mostly don't work. Uh, but eventually there will be devices that will work and they will substantially, substantially, uh, uh, help all, all people and the topic itself will be way more popular.

Amina: Yes, definitely. I think that you are, At least 10 years ahead of your time. I think that this is just the very beginning of it. And that being said, how do you address like skepticism or criticism surrounding your work? I'm sure a lot of people don't fully understand it yet, or don't see the bigger picture.

Michael: It's simple because I'm not that kind of person who worries about somebody's opinion. I have just goals and follow them, but you're right, not everybody can understand this. And for example, after my self neurosurgery, uh, I lost even a few friends. [00:30:00] They refused to communicate with me after this, uh, but I understand this because if you don't know all the details.

It's, it is just insanity, just a manel his head. Uh, and it, it looks like insanity. Uh, if you don't know all the details, it is insanity. So I understand, uh, this, um, but in general, I just don't care about any other's opinions because I know what I'm doing. Uh, I know the purpose and I have experience. I have resources.

So, uh, and I just don't care. 

Amina: That's good. That's good. I think that's important because you're doing important things and people will see that and they're already seeing it. I mean, it's a really amazing what you're doing. Um, can you tell me about, um, RampSpace and Lucid. me and, and the things, the products that you're coming out with?

Michael: Actually, we've been developing many interesting things for right now. I cannot [00:31:00] share all of them. I have to wait a little bit, but, uh, the main idea is that right now I have resources. to develop things that we all need. I mean, we're all lucid dreaming practitioners because, uh, very often we may have some great ideas.

But you just don't know how to, how to make it real. And right now we've been working on a few, um, tools or services, which will, uh, help us to develop this topic better. It's, it is, uh, about our new mask. I'll talk about it in a minute. Uh, we are talking about some supplements and some services, some mobile applications, uh, give us just a few months.

To accomplish it. The prime idea of this mask is that it's, even though it has [00:32:00] an option to send you signals during REM sleep, we've just discovered that it does not work most of the time. The main purpose of this mask is to help you to induce lucid dreams upon awakening. So it's, it's, it's. It wakes you at a certain moment during REM sleep.

It instructs you what to do at this moment. And, uh, it's not our first mask. Back in Russia, we produced two previous versions. So we know that it works. The idea, it works. This one is just the most advanced one. It will be, it will be available around the world because when you're Russia, if you produce something in Russia, it stays in Russia.

You can, you cannot do anything with it. And, um, and previous masks were poorly designed, but this one, uh, is perfect. So just give us a few months to produce it. 

Amina: Yeah, that's very exciting. I'm excited [00:33:00] to see it all come out and unfold. Um, and so when it comes to OBEs and lucid dreams, do you differentiate them or do you consider them all kind of similar?

Michael: It may look differently only at the beginning. For example, if you become conscious, uh, in a dream scene, it becomes very obvious for you that you are in a lucid dream because you were just dreaming and now you understand that you're dreaming. It's easy. But the problem is that when, uh, our lucid dreams start upon awakening, when you just Wake up and you feel your body, you, you understand that you're in your room.

And then if a lucid dream starts from this position, it, it just looks like an out body experience. And that the problem, and you cannot provide me with any, uh, [00:34:00] tests, with any, um, proof that you, I, I, I could see the difference. between an auto body experience and elucidum. So it all, it is all about the beginning, how it begins.

And the problem is that when it begins upon awakening, it looks too real. It looks as if you leave your body. And that is why People think that it exists and that is why when I was a teenager, I was pretty sure that This phenomena is different. Believe me. I would I would start a fight If somebody would tell me that all I did was one thing, because I was 100 percent sure that sometimes I would leave my body, sometimes I would be in a different dimension, sometimes I would be in my dream, and I was 100 percent sure that all those states were different, and that is why I use the [00:35:00] term the phase.

The phase, the phase state to unite all of them. So a lucid dream in the phase is not the same things. The phase is a term to unite any states when you have consciousness during REM sleep. Sleep paralysis during REM sleep. And you have consciousness, out of body experience, uh, false awakenings, and so on.

So the phase term, uh, unites, uh, all these similar phenomena that may look differently. 

Amina: Oh, that makes sense. And so what about out of body experiences through meditation or psychedelics? Would you consider that in the phase if you're not asleep? 

Michael: Uh, sometimes it happens, I have heard stories from people that could, they could experience an out of body experience just during walking or during swimming, something like this.

Technically, we cannot say it is the phase state [00:36:00] because for the phase state, you should be in REM sleep, in REM sleep. When you are in REM sleep. Your body is paralyzed because sleep paralysis happens only during REM sleep. So you cannot walk, you cannot do anything. So but you may feel this sensation, this, this dissociative sensation, uh, during different activities.

Sometimes it is the phase state, sometimes it is not, it's always about some details. But very often people experience real phases during meditation, for example, especially if they are practicing meditation. Required something like this. So it happens spontaneously pretty often. 

Amina: That makes sense So I just have one more question for you before we wrap up Do you have a certain dream a lucid dream or a phase experience?

[00:37:00] Throughout your life that has really impacted you or one of your favorites that you can share 

Michael: I have had so many of them that's so hard to choose, but I can share one That's maybe shocked me more than others It's, it's, it's demonstrated to me that lucid dreams can solve real problems. Uh, so when I was a teenager and, uh, I was still afraid about those aliens.

And once I decided to see them by myself in the lucid dream, in the face state, it was very scary to do. But the idea is that once I was able to see an alien in the face, it's this particular moment. This second, my phobia about aliens, uh, had disappeared forever. So it really, I really suffered from it because I was, when I was a kid, uh, sometimes I could not fall asleep because I was afraid about aliens during [00:38:00] the day I was dreaming about them.

But during nights I was too scared to see them. And it was a real problem. It was like a phobia and I suffered a lot when I was a kid, a teenager from this. But. One second in the phase state, when I saw them, solved this phobia forever. Why, why, why did it work? Because when I saw that Alice, yeah, yes, he was a little bit scary.

Uh, but I saw that he didn't try to cut me, eat me. I didn't experience any, anything. So, uh, finally I saw my fear by my eyes. And it appeared to me that there's nothing I should be worried about, and one second in a lucid dream solved my phobia. And I can guarantee that If I would pay for service for any, [00:39:00] uh, psychiatrist or psychologist, they would work on this phobia for many months, maybe years, and we don't know about the outcomes, but one second, just one second in a lucid dream, solved the problem.

Uh, my phobia forever. So it's, it's, it's shown me that this state indeed had a very huge potential. 

Amina: Well, that wraps it up. I really appreciate you taking the time to come chat with me. 

Michael: Thank you. Amina. Uh, I wish you good luck with your practice in your audience as well.