EP80: Astronaut Dreams- The Untold Story of Apollo 19

This episode features Doug, a guest who recounts intense and recurring nightmares related to the Apollo astronauts. These nightmares, beginning twelve years ago, depict the guest in a detailed Apollo spacesuit and facing eerie, shadowy figures, and unsettling scenarios within the spacecraft. The dreams, switching between first and third-person perspectives, include dramatic elements like encountering creatures, struggling with spacecraft hatches, and witnessing astronauts in distress. The discussion also taps into theories about governmental secrets, black budget programs, and alien encounters.
 
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"Research is creating new knowledge." - Neil Armstrong

Transcript

Amina: [00:00:00] Today's episode is really exciting. It's about a dream story that really moved me. And I always try to create a space where people feel comfortable, like emailing me and talking about their dream experiences. And so I'm glad you reached out. You sent me your story and I read it. And honestly, I was really blown away.

And they're regarding the Apollo astronauts. So, I'll kind of let you tell the story about how the dreams started that relate to this story. Um, and I know that it goes even further back than that. Um, because the dreams had started in adulthood. But, I know that your interest in space and astronauts started way before that.

So, um, yeah, I'll let you kind of introduce yourself and tell me where it all began. 

Doug: Okay. Well, first of all, thank you for having me on the show. I appreciate it. And I have to preface this by saying I was born, uh, like 10 years after the Apollo program ended and nobody in my family was ever involved in the space program.

So I really don't know where any of these dreams or memories or interests have come from. I have [00:01:00] no explanation for it, but about 12 years ago, I started having some strange, uh, nightmares and, um, they, they actually, so at first I didn't really think anything of them, but then they started recurring and repeating and that's when I started to write them down in a little journal.

Um, and, um, so the first one I started having, uh, is a, is a dream I call the shadow figure. And, um, so in all these dreams, um. I'm, I guess I'm an astronaut in these dreams and all of them. Um, and I'm seeing these things unfold either in first person point of view or in third person point of view. So in first port, in first person point of view, I'm looking through the, uh, the visor glass of a space helmet and I can feel the space suit on my body.

It's an Apollo space suit, which I know because, uh, when I see it in third person, you can tell it's an Apollo space suit. Um, it's bright white. [00:02:00] It seems to be made out of like a nylon fabric. Um, and, um, there's an American flag sewn into the left sleeve and an Apollo patch sewn into the chest. So there's a lot of details about the suit I can go into later on, I guess, but, um, they're, they're consistent in all the dreams, the, uh, the S the space suit and, uh, the, uh, the, the reference, the point of views that I S I see everything from.

So the, the first go back to the first dream again, um, the first dream I call is the shadow figure dream, and I'm lying on my back, um, In my space suit and I start seeing, and so I'm lying on my back and I can't get up immediately. I can't get up. I don't know what's holding me down. I don't know why I'm stuck to the floor.

Um, I can't really see where I am. Everything's kind of gray. Um, it seems like I'm in some kind of, uh, like hallway or corridor or something like that. Um, but it's, but it's hard to say, it's hard to tell what I'm actually [00:03:00] in. Um, and, um, uh, I'm desperate, I'm desperately trying to get up. I can't get up. And all of a sudden I start seeing this shadow emerge.

And, uh, at first it's, it's on the ground and it's just past my, my feet. And, um, and it's all of a sudden I'm just instantly terrified as soon as I see this shadow and the shadow starts getting bigger and bigger as it starts approaching me. And like I said, at first it's on the floor, but then as it gets closer and closer, it starts rising up the wall.

Uh, as it rises up the wall, uh, I'm struck by a couple things. One is that, uh, the shadow is extremely, extremely dark. It's like, it's like almost, it's like almost absorbing the light, if that makes any sense. Um, and then, uh, the other thing I noticed about it is it's not in the shape of, uh, like an astronaut or a person wearing a spacesuit.

It's, it's, uh, definitely like a humanoid type figure, but it's not, it's not a [00:04:00] human, in other words, um, can't tell exactly what kind of creature it is. Other than that, it's. Seems to be bipedal and have two arms and a head. Um, and it keeps getting closer and closer and it keeps rising up the wall as it's getting closer.

And I'm just, uh, I'm, I'm desperately trying to get up. And at some, at some, uh, in some parts of the stream, um, I'm experiencing this dream in third person, which means I can actually see the astronaut on the ground and that's how I can tell, um, it's an Apollo space suit. And, um, and I can also look into the, uh, his, his, his helmet and see his face.

And, uh, I can tell it's not my face, which is the weird thing. Like it is, it is a clean shaven, uh, white male, but it's not my face. And, um, and so, uh, kind of going off on a little tangent here, but I, I named the astronaut Dustin. Um, I don't really know why I call him Dustin. I don't think his name has ever been revealed in any of the dreams.

But, um, [00:05:00] somehow I just came up with that name seemingly out of thin air. Um, it just seems to fit for whatever reason. So anyway, so I can, so if I say Dustin, that's who I'm referring to. So I can see Dustin on the ground and it's Apollo space suit. He's just, we're trying to get up. Sometimes I'm seeing it from third person.

Sometimes I'm seeing the stream from the inside of the space helmet. And, uh, and just as the shadow is completely over me or Dustin in the stream, um, I wake up, I snap out of it. So I never get to see the actual creature, what, what was making the shadow. Um, so, um, I just, I just got to see the shadow and, um, and I've had this dream a few times.

Um, and, uh, so I've kind of tried to figure out what the shadow is. I don't know if it's the shadow of an alien. Or I've also even wondered if the shadow is, um, like a, [00:06:00] like demonic, like if it's a, if it's a demon, um, which I don't know why a demon and an astronaut would be, you know, in the same realm, but, um, it's just something that I've thought of.

I've also wondered if the shadow is just representing something, um, like death, um, maybe it's not an actual creature, it's just representative of something. So I don't know. I have a lot of questions and theories about that dream. Um, so anyways, I don't know if you want me to keep going or if you want me to, 

Amina: yeah, I mean, it's up to you however much you want to share.

I could ask questions at, at any moment. Um, so I know you were trying to make sense of these dreams. Um, Well, did we go over all the dream point of view so we can just tell the story of the dream first? 

Doug: Okay. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm, I'm, this is my first time on a podcast like this. So 

Amina: you're, you're doing great.

I let people talk as much as they want to, and I'll come in with questions once you feel like you said what you had to say on that. 

Doug: Okay. So, [00:07:00] uh, so the next dream that I had, uh, And I'd like to say that these dreams don't seem to occur in chronological order, which I'll talk a little bit more about, I guess, later when we talk about the book, but, um, they just seem to happen just in random, uh, points in time during this incident that occurred in space, I guess, um, if that makes any sense, but, um, anyways, um, so the second dream I had was, um, was I call it at the hatch.

And so in this dream, I'm back in the, uh, white Apollo space suit. I'm looking at. My hands, which are inside of, um, some white space gloves. Um, so I'm looking through the, uh, the visor glass of the space helmet. And, um, I can't remember if there's any sound in the stream. Uh, some, some of these dreams, they, they get kind of blurred together and vague, some of the details that might be [00:08:00] crisscrossing, but, um, at any rate, I know that I'm breathing heavy.

Um, and I'm, I'm at this hatch on the, on this wall of the space. What's what I guess is a spacecraft now. So this, this dream kind of offers that clue. I'm inside of the spacecraft. Um, and I'm at this hatch on this wall. It's like a gray hatch and all the mechanisms like of the hatch, all the locking mechanisms are exposed and it looks very intricate.

Um, and there's like, there's like a lever, like a small lever on the hatch that I'm desperately trying to open and, um, to, to unlock this hatch. And as soon as the dream starts, I know the creature from the other nightmares is coming up behind me. Like he's coming to get me or Dustin, you know, and, uh, And I don't know how I, I know this cause I never see him in the screen, but it's just a paranormal type feeling, I can sense him coming up behind me and I have to open up this hatch to escape him.

And. So this [00:09:00] hatch I'm trying to open it, it won't, it will not budge. Um, it's the, the mechanism seems like it's jammed. I'm trying as hard as I can. I'm also in a very low gravity environment or zero gravity environment. So I guess I'm in space and it seems like every time I try to open the hatch, um, you know, I'm struggling against this hatch and I keep floating up in the air.

Like my, my, my space boots won't stay on the ground. So that makes it even harder. And, uh, my visor glass is starting to. Fog over because my heavy breathing because I'm struggling on this hatch and the hatch seems like it's welded shut. And, uh, I also seems like, it also seems like I can't manipulate the controls because either, either because I'm in a panic or because, um, my, my gloves are too bulky.

And uh, so, so eventually I, I, I snap out of the stream and I wake up, um, and I don't know if the creature ever gets, or the alien ever gets Dustin, um, I don't, I don't ever find out in the stream, um, [00:10:00] but it's pretty, it's pretty intense, even though it's, you don't actually see the creature in the stream, but it's still pretty intense because I know I'm trying to, I know I'm trying to escape.

The, uh, the alien or the creature. And, uh, it seems like the hatch never opens. So, uh, it's, it's pretty scary. And I, and I believe the stream has only ever been in first person. Um, I don't really recall it ever being in third person. So it's entirely from a first person perspective from what I remember. So, um, and then the next one, the next one I've had, I've had, I've had quite a few different dreams, but.

Um, these are the big three I'm basically talking about. Um, but I'll, I'll mention some of the other details, some of their dreams after. But, um, the next one is actually, I don't really consider it a dream. Um, I was laying in my bed and I was trying to go to sleep, but I didn't actually, I wasn't actually asleep yet.

I was kind of in that in between state of about to fall asleep, but not asleep yet. So I don't really know if this is a [00:11:00] dream or a memory or what I wouldn't, you know, I don't really know how to describe what it, what exactly it is, but. Um, anyways, I was about to go to sleep, I was laying in my bed and all of a sudden I'm struck by this memory.

Um, I'm dusting in the dream again, in the space suit again, but I'm looking at another astronaut. Um, and he's also in an Apollo space suit. But, uh, this astronaut is on his back, um, on some kind of, like, Surgical table or operating table and uh, he's desperately trying to get up Uh, but he can't because he's being sucked down to this table somehow and i'll come back to that in a minute But in the background of this, um, so so the the room let me describe the room real quick The room is uh, really obscure again It's kind of like the first dream where I can't really see too much detail about where i'm at But the room is like a foggy gray color.

Um [00:12:00] can't really see too much detail about the room itself um, and But in the background, I hear this, both of us, me and the other astronaut, um, hear this. Pneumatic drill, um, sound and it's very intense. It sounds like a dentist drill. Like if you're at the dentist office and you're getting a cleaning and you hear somebody in the next room over getting a root canal or something like that, and you hear the pneumatic sound of the drill, that's kind of what the sound was like, except it was much louder than that, much more intense than the dream.

Um, and both of us somehow knew that the drill was about to be used on, um, the astronaut that's laying on the table and, or, or both of us. And, uh, so we're both in a total panic trying to get away from, yeah, I say my dog's in my face. You gotta be, 

Amina: Oh, good. 

Doug: Right. Um, so anyways, um, um, we're both in a total state of panic with this, with this drill going on and, uh, let me, let me get my [00:13:00] dog out.

I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah, no 

Amina: worries, 

Doug: take your time and do what you gotta do. I have dogs, so I understand. Sure, take your time.

So the table that he's on, um, it's some kind of like, it's, it's like a weird surgical table or operating table, but it's about three or four inches thick. It's like this weird tan color, and it's got these dime sized or quarter sized holes in it. And I think the table [00:14:00] was, Generating like a vacuum type force through these holes that was causing, that was causing the astronaut on the table to be sucked down to it.

Um, cause he's, he's, he's on his back. He's, he's desperately trying to get up off this table and he can't. Um, and so this, this drill sounds still going in the background. He's, he's struggling to get off the table. And, um, and then all of a sudden I snap out of the dream and I don't ever remember, or I don't ever get to see what, um, what happened next.

Um, so, um, And like I said, I keep calling it a dream, but I don't know. I really don't know what to call it because like I said, I wasn't fully asleep yet. Um, and then that memory or dream, it only seemed to last a few seconds. Whereas the other dreams, um, seem to last, you know, a few minutes. This one was very quick.

It was almost like a miniature flashback, if that makes any kind of sense. Um, yeah, so, um, [00:15:00] so many other dreams. I don't really remember very much. Sometimes I'll have this, like, like I'll have a dream and I'll, I'll wake up and then like, I won't really remember much about it other than there are astronauts in the dream, but, or something like that.

Um, yeah. I do recall in one of the dreams, I don't remember what exactly happened, but I remember the alien was, um, and the dream was dark gray. He was very large, very muscular. Um, he was not your typical alien. Like, you know, like I know we're talking about aliens here. So nobody really knows. Right. But like.

Um, typically people describe aliens as being kind of smaller, um, like four feet tall, thin, with big black eyes and, um, these, these aliens in these dreams were, were not small, they were very large, probably seven feet or so. Um, and like I said, very muscular, not like bodybuilder muscular, but kind of like a, like a basketball player, like athletic muscles.

Um, So I don't, I don't really know, I don't know much about aliens as [00:16:00] far as the different types of aliens, or, you know, some people claim to know what planets they come from and what the different types are, what their intentions are. I don't really know all that. I just know what I've experienced in my dreams and nightmares.

And these were little memories that I've had. Um, so. Yeah, that's pretty much all I got as far as dreams go. Um, I don't know if you wanted to ask me a thing or whatever, but 

Amina: yeah, that's, that is really intense and it's cool. Definitely we can have similar dreams and flashbacks like you're mentioning in different phases of sleep.

Like, um, that kind of in between phase, it's called hypnagogia and we can still have interesting dreams there. Um, but these definitely feel like more than just dreams. It's more than just, oh, I'm really interested in space. And so I'm thinking about it while I'm sleeping. This, this is definitely deep. So how did you start to make sense of these dreams?

I can imagine that's very traumatizing and stressful to wake up, um, after [00:17:00] something like that. Um, and I know you started to Google things and research about space and all of that, but what was your first reaction and how did you process these experiences? 

Doug: Um, so first, First reaction I had was, I thought it was the first one was sleep paralysis because I was on my back and couldn't get up and this creature's approaching me and it sounds very much like a sleep paralysis type situation.

And I've had, I have sleep paralysis from time to time. So it is quite intense. Um, but, um, so I thought that's what it was at first. And then as I started having other dreams that were similar. Um, you know, the, the, the, the, always the same theme as I'm in a white Apollo space suit all the time, every dream.

And, um, it seems like I'm in space or some kind of spacecraft. So that's always a common theme and there's always a creature. So, um, so that, so then it was like pieces to a puzzle. That's kind of how I look at all this. And, um, and so I started [00:18:00] writing them down or typing them out in a, in a dream journal, uh, that I have and, um, just to kind of keep track of them and, uh, You know, every now and then, if I have something, I'll note it in there.

Like if I have another dream or whatever, I haven't had one in a while. The last one was that last, the last one was a memory recall thing. I was talking about that was, that was about four months ago now. Um, that was the very last one that I've had. Um, but yeah, so I started writing things down in a journal and kind of.

Seeing the patterns. Um, and then, uh, I started writing, I decided to write a book about it. Uh, and, uh, the fictional book based off of the dreams. And what I did with the book was I started putting these things in kind of chronological order. What I, cause I think all this is from the same incident. Um, I don't think they're just random different incidents.

I think it's all the same incident, like little, little snapshots of the same event. [00:19:00] So, uh, so I started trying to figure out, well, what's going on? You know, what would be, what would the order be? And so I started kind of trying to, uh, put those to put those together in order. And I came up with a fictional story, quote unquote.

Um, and you know, I did, I did add in some details, you know, that I had to create some stuff to make it flow and add different characters and, um, and, you know, and I had to do some, a little bit of research on some of the, some of the, um, historical elements of the story. So that's also in there as well. But, um, but the, but writing the story really helped me put it together and, and figure some of it out.

At least, um, I don't know, I still don't know what it means, uh, who these astronauts were, if they were actually real, um, you know, I have to throw the disclaimer out there, this could all just be my wild imagination, um, you know, coming to me in dream format. So there's always that possibility as well. Um, but yeah, so the, the, the story really helped me kind of.

Put it all together and [00:20:00] try to figure it out a little bit and help help make it into a like a pattern Kind of like I said putting the puzzle pieces together into a bigger picture. So 

Amina: Yeah, I love it. And the story is really great. I will link it because I really want people to read it. Um, and you're a great writer too.

And I love how it just flowed through you so naturally, um, as if you're really accessing the memories of somebody that lived. And like you said, maybe, maybe it's just your crazy imagination, but if that's true, it's a hell of a story with a lot of details and. Things that surprisingly add up to things that actually happened as well.

Um, but what really fascinates me too, before we get deeper into the book, which I do want to talk about, there's so many details to unpack here. Um, before the dreams even started, you grew up with a young age and this interest in space, um, before Google was even a thing. So can you take me back to like your childhood interests and what sort of connections you've noticed to this story before you started having the dreams?[00:21:00] 

Doug: Sure. So, um, I was born in the early eighties. Um, and, uh, like you said, there wasn't really any internet back then. Uh, I don't even think I had a computer in my house till I was in my teenage years. Um, and so I don't know the exact age, but around five or seven, somewhere in that age range, um, I started having a interest in space.

Uh, and I know a lot of boys do that, you know, a lot of boys, a lot of boys and girls. Um, you know, I want to be astronauts and, uh, dreaming about space and all that sort of stuff. But mine was a little bit, a little bit more intense than that. Um, I started drawing diagram, uh, detailed diagrams of multi stage rockets, multi stage rockets, which are basically rockets that, um, as they, uh, fly through the air or fly, fly into space, um, they separate into different stages and the other use stages fall back to earth.

Usually with parachutes, um, and they, they're reusable. So I [00:22:00] started drawing detail, detailed diagrams of these multistage rocket rockets and, uh, spacecraft and other things. And then, uh, as I got a little bit older, you know, I'm still just a little kid, less than 10 years old. Um, I started making rockets out of.

cardboard and construction paper and, uh, plastic bottles. And, you know, I got my hot, my mom's hot glue gun and start gluing all stuff together and, uh, started producing these rockets that were usually, you know, a few feet tall. Um, and. Um, and like, uh, like I mentioned in the email, uh, I packed fire firecrackers or fireworks into the bottom of one of them.

And, uh, we lived on a cul de sac and, uh, went out there one day and tried to, you know, I was thinking the fireworks would blast it off, you know, and, uh, ended up blowing up the building. In the, in the coal sack there, but, uh, but yeah, I was doing that kind of stuff as a little kid. Um, and, uh, uh, [00:23:00] I later found out that the rocket that I was drawing and building was, uh, the Saturn five, which was used on the Apollo program.

And, uh, if you ever get a chance, uh, there's a, there's a space museum in Huntsville, Alabama, it's called the U. S. Space and Rocket Center. And, uh, hanging from the ceiling in the Apollo, uh, building is a Saturn V rocket, and it's gonna separate out into its multiple stages. It's really cool to see. Um, so, uh, so anyways, that's what I was building as a little kid.

Um, so my grandfather, he died before I was born, but he was a Marine in World War II. So, uh, so I, I kind of lost Interest in the space stuff. And, uh, I started gaining interest in, in the military. So, uh, when I, when I got out of high school, I went into Marines and I was in the military for a while and, uh, I was also in law enforcement for a while.

So I kind of forgot about all the space stuff and had lived this whole other. Life [00:24:00] that didn't have anything to do with space. So then about 12 years ago, I was wanting to start having the dreams. And so it was separated by, you know, many, many, you know, decades of just Living as a Marine and as a, as a police officer and, uh, also, um, more construction than all these other things.

So, um, you know, it, it's not like I was constantly, um, you know, researching space stuff and then had these dreams, you know, it came many, many, many years later. So that's, that's kind of, um, how my life story goes with all this. 

Amina: Yeah. Interesting. And I was also wondering when the dreams happened later in your adult life, what do you think triggered it?

Like, do you think there was anything going on in your life, maybe a spiritual awakening or anything you think that. Made this start happen? The dream specifically? 

Doug: No, uh, not really. I, you know, I was living on [00:25:00] a farm actually, um, 12 years ago. Uh, my wife and I bought a, uh, homestead and we started farming out there and Living out in the middle of nowhere.

Um, I never, I've never been a big TV watcher. I've always, um, if I do watch TV, it's a documentary or something like that. Um, I like war movies and stuff like that. So I don't really watch much sci fi or space stuff. Um, so yeah, there was really nothing that seemed to trigger any of this. Um, I had another weird dream and I don't know if this is related, but I don't even know what, what it was.

And. My son, oddly enough, my son had the same dream. Um, and I don't know if this is related, but I'm gonna go ahead and tell it to you. Um, but I was, uh, I was, this was in the house I'm living at now, not on the farm anymore. Um, this was about two or three years ago. Um, I was in my bed, I was laying on my back and I had just fallen asleep [00:26:00] and all of a sudden, um, so, so I was, I was in bed and my wife was still watching TV in the TV room.

So I was completely sealed off in the bedroom, door was shut, just fell asleep. All of a sudden this bright white light, I mean it's bright, I thought it was like a spotlight in my face, starts shining in my eyes, and I wait, so I don't know if I'm dreaming this or if I actually woke up and this actually happened, I couldn't tell you, but it was super, super realistic if it was a dream, but this bright white light is all of a sudden shining in my eyes, and it's almost blinding, it's so bright, and my first thought was my wife is messing with me, she's shining a flashlight in my face for some reason, so And so I wake up or I think I'm awake, you know, and, um, and all of a sudden there's this cantaloupe sized or softball size, bright white orb in front of my face, four or five inches from my face.

And I know I'm probably, I know I probably sound lunatic right now, but this is just, I'm just telling my [00:27:00] story. And, uh, And so, um, so this orb, it almost seems to communicate with me telepathically because it says it doesn't really speak to me in like English or nothing, but like, I just get the sense in my head.

It's like, it's like saying like, Hey, I'm bored. I'm just wanting to mess with you for entertainment. And as soon as it says that to me, it goes across the room and it flies into the wall and it kind of dematerializes in the wall and it vanishes. And like I said, I know I sound crazy, but this may, this may have been just a dream, but.

This is the next part of the story. So I kind of, you know, like I said, I'm a, I'm a Marine and former law enforcement, so like I kind of rationalized things very quickly. So I rationalized it, Hey, this was just a dream. And you know, that's that. So about, um, I don't know, about four or six months later, my wife and I are sitting in the, uh, TV room watching TV and the stairwell leads up directly from the TV room and my son's bedroom is right at the top of the [00:28:00] stairs.

And he, uh, my son's about, uh, he was about, uh, Maybe five or six at the time. I think it was five. And all of a sudden we hear him just screaming and crying. So, and you know, this is, this is that night stays in bed. So we run up there and, uh, get in his bed, you know, get, get, get with him in his bed and ask him, Hey, what's going on, you know, and he said, I had a nightmare and I was like, oh, okay, man, uh, tell me about it.

And he said, well, there's this bright light all of a sudden. And it was in my face and I woke up and it was like a ball of light in front of my face. And then as soon as I saw it, it flew across the room and disappeared into the wall. And I was like, holy crap, like, cause I did not tell anybody, well I told my wife about the dream, but I did not tell my sons, she didn't tell anybody, and it was like almost verbatim what I had seen, so, I don't know how to explain that, and I know that's like, I know that's like way off the, the actual thing.

I mean it's 

Amina: relevant though, because that sounds like it could be [00:29:00] some sort of alien encounter. 

Doug: Yeah, it was, it was super strange. Like, I don't know what to make of that. Um, especially since my son described the same thing. Yeah. You're 

Amina: not crazy. Don't tell yourself that like, there's so much we don't know about the world.

Doug: Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, that was, uh, that was another thing that, uh, that I forgot about it. I didn't, I didn't think to mention that before. So, yeah. So I don't know. I don't know if, I don't know, you know, what the orb, um, and the, and the dreams, I don't know if somebody. That has passed away is trying to, for some reason has chosen me to tell these stories or to talk to me about them.

I don't know. Um, like I said, I'm usually a pretty grounded down to earth person, but, um, you know, all this stuff is bizarre. Uh, I don't know what to make of it. 

Amina: Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's very possible that you're, you're telling somebody's story or that this is a past life that you've lived. [00:30:00] Um, you know, both could be possible depending on, you know, what you believe, but, um, the unique different points of view of these dreams throughout the years fascinates me a lot.

Um, and the way that it allows you to put together the story. Um, I But these are more than just dreams. Like, you feel personally connected to one astronaut, Dustin, in particular, right? Um, and you're kind of seeing all of this unfold through his eyes and in different ways. Um, so yeah, do you, do you feel like a personal connection to him rather deeper than just watching a scene play out like a movie?

Doug: In a, in a way, yes, um, I feel, uh, I feel like me and Dustin, like if, if I was standing in a room with Dustin, um, I feel like me and him would be very like almost polar opposites. Uh, I'm a military man. Um, uh, you know, just, um, hard charging kind of guy. And I feel like Dustin was kind of the scientific, more of the scientific kind of guy.

Um, [00:31:00] you know, uh, I picture him as a, as a thinner, thinner guy. For some reason, this is all in my mind's eye. So I'm just explaining to you what. But I, what I'm visualizing, um, probably, probably really good guy, you know, uh, scientific type guy, super smart. Um, and just an astronaut who was trying to, you know, explore space or, uh, you know, just live that kind of lifestyle.

Um, that's very different from mine. Um, and so I feel connected to him in the way that, um, I feel like I've been, Tasked with the story of, you know, just trying to get the story out there. Um, I don't know exactly what happened to him. Um, if this whole thing is, is, has really happened. Um, but the fictional story that I wrote, um, the details just seemed to flow out of me as I typed out the story.

So, um, yeah, so I feel connected to him in that way. Like it just, [00:32:00] it's like, I almost know all this stuff. And then, um, like I mentioned, this is kind of on a, kind of in the same realm, but a little bit. Um, uh, the, the spacesuit going back to the spacesuit, you know, like to me, that's kind of like a very personalized piece of gear that an astronaut would have kind of like a, like a Marine's rifle or a Marine's, uh, helmet or, you know, uniform, um, something that you have and hold every day as part of your job.

Um, and so, uh, the spacesuit for him would have been the same, uh, something that he wears in space, uh, you know, has to take care of, and it has to take care of him. Um, it's basically literally his lifeline out in space. And so like. In these dreams, like, I could feel the spacesuit on my body, like, against my skin, you know, it felt like, it felt like I was in, like, a sleeping bag, if that makes any sense.

It was bulky, but comfortable. Um, so, like, so, like, I feel connected to him in that way, like, like, you know, like, I kind of, almost, like, I feel, like, what his life was [00:33:00] like in those dreams. last few moments, I guess. So, yeah, 

Amina: yeah, those are such vivid memories. And that's such a unique feeling to really remember what that space feels like.

That's not something that a lot of people can say that they really know what it's like. So that's interesting. And I want to dive into Um, some of these characters here in your story, and then we'll get into like, you know, the history of what's actually going on with space missions and things. Um, but there's some really interesting characters here.

Um, you have the three astronaut crew, um, which, as you mentioned, some of them are from the dream, and some of them are kind of things you've pieced together. Um, which turned out to be quite interestingly accurate. Um, but then you have these government type personalities, particularly this one Agent X. Um, does this Agent X ever appear in the dream or is it just kind of, um, part of the story that fits in?

Doug: No, she never, Agent X never appears in any of the dreams. Um, but um, I [00:34:00] created her character. So, so Um, a lot of these characters are originating chapter one and chapter one is, uh, probably the most, well, so I took the most creative freedoms with chapter one. I'll say, um, it's pretty much entirely just, you know, I just wrote it, um, from imagination basically.

Um, Agent X, uh, there's a couple reasons why I created her character. Um, one, I wanted somebody to represent the corruption of the government. I wanted to put that corruption into a person. Um, she represents how the government feels like, uh, people are expendable. Um, you know, if people die. To accomplish an objective.

Um, it doesn't matter. Um, we can, you know, she, she kind of represents the deception of the government, um, the coverups. She's that she's all of that one person. Um, the other reason why I wanted agent X is because, um, [00:35:00] I wanted her character to kind of be the polar opposite of, um, Kaylee's character. Who's the spacecraft pilot.

Um, I wanted kind of a, uh, a sharp contrast between, uh, between the astronauts and the government, and especially. Being that Kaylee and Agent X are both females, um, I wanted to create that sharp contrast and they're actually polar opposite characters in the book. Um, so yeah, so that's why I put her character in there and, uh, as well as the other agents that are there.

Um, and, uh, I'm planning on eventually writing a book two, a sequel to this book, and, um, it'll, it'll go more into Agent X's background and who she is and where she comes from. Um, and, uh, it'll be a lot, a lot more about her, but, um, In the first book, she's kind of a mystery still, she's, she's kind of just, uh, one of the, uh, kind of the people pulling the strings, so to speak.[00:36:00] 

Amina: Yeah, wow, I'm excited for when that comes out because, um, I'm really curious about learning more about this character from, from your perspective. Um, and it really makes sense, you know, this archetype of this, you know, lying. scamming government, um That they want to figure out more about the moon at all costs regardless of who it affects Um, so they send out these three astronauts and I love the moment in your book where they all find out That the only thing they have in common is they have in common is that they're all Not close with their families.

They don't have anybody that would go looking for them. Um, and you know, it's interesting cause when you start lining up your, your story with a lot of conspiracy theories out there or stories out there about what happened really with these moon missions, um, there's some theories that. You know, we went to the moon and we're told by some aliens not to come back.

And maybe we got a really gruesome warning where these aliens, I mean, these astronauts in these secret missions [00:37:00] were killed, like in your story. And why would such a government who clearly doesn't care about people, um, continue to send more people to the moon, knowing that we're not. supposed to return and that the other astronauts were dead.

I mean, they want to learn more about the moon. They want to be territorial against a species that's clearly stronger and more advanced than us. So it really is quite cruel. It almost seems to me that that agent X is dead. More cruel than the aliens that, you know, supposedly made a lesson out of the astronauts.

Doug: Exactly. Uh, I agree with a hundred percent and, uh, something else too. Uh, not, not, I'm not really a conspiracy theorist or a tinfoil hat barn kind of guy, but, uh, But, um, you know, it always was kind of odd to me that, um, we stopped going to the moon so abruptly with Apollo 17. Um, and when you do the research on why, um, the, the reason that's given by the government is that we quit [00:38:00] going to the moon because of budget cuts.

Um, and as I've mentioned, uh, when is the government cared about taxpayer dollars? When have they cared about wasting our money? You know, we're just an, we're just an ATM machine to them. So like Why would they be worried about the budget, you know, or wasting money on the space program, you know, it just doesn't make much sense when there's so much more of the moon that could have been explored.

We don't know what kind of resources are on the moon, if there's valuable minerals, if there's stuff that we can use here on Earth. We don't know, you know, because we stopped going. So I've always thought that was kind of strange, you know, 

Amina: yeah, not to mention they want to explore it and we know they have a crazy amount of money and they're not afraid to get into more debt.

So I don't know if I believe the whole budget cut story either. 

Doug: Exactly. The only, the only, um, the only thing that'd be hard to do, which, uh, this is kind of, I'm kind of playing the devil's advocate here, um, in the sixties and seventies. [00:39:00] Um, the technology to go to the moon required a massive rocket, the Saturn five.

Um, I think it was the most powerful rocket we've ever built. It was a massive machine and to launch one of those off, to send astronauts to the moon. If you're going to do that in secret, that'd be pretty hard to do because it's a colossal machine. There's got to be a lot of people involved in, um, not only is.

But also just watching it, like, um, people are going to know, it's going to wake the neighbors when it goes off, you know, so, um, so that's the only thing that I kind of wonder about, like, if we went back secretly, how to pull it off, I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying it'd be the hardest, one of the hardest things, you know?

So, um, there was another program that kind of, kind of piggybacked off the Apollo program. It was called the Skylab Program, and the Skylab Program was basically [00:40:00] a, uh, a lab in space. It was, uh, it was kind of a small space station that orbited the Earth. And, uh, astronauts went up there and they spent certain periods of time up there conducting experiments and they used the same exact Apollo A7L spacesuits that the astronauts on the moon used.

Um, so that's also interesting. Um, I guess we could have, you know, talk, I'm just talking out loud here. Don't throwing darts at a dart board, but they could have said, Hey, we're going to Skylab and really went back to the moon, you know, so, um, That's also possible, I guess. But like I said, that's, that's, that's, that's kind of a conspiracy theory.

So, 

Amina: yeah, I mean, there's a lot of possibilities, honestly. And the truth is all these theories come about because we really don't know what's going on. And we do know that the government has hide, you know, hides things from us. They want to control this narrative that, oh, you know, these aliens, that's crazy talk, you know, and that's why movies come out and jokes and means about it.

But we know that they [00:41:00] have an interest in studying this thing. So they're going to do it. They, they want to get ahead of the narrative. Before the public freaks out or anything, but, um, let's talk about what we do know. I mean, now things are coming out, they've already admitted to lying about aliens and we, we're starting to figure out some things that were kept about Neil Armstrong and the Apollo mission.

So when you started to research these things and kind of compare the facts while putting together your book, um, what did you learn about what's going on? You know, these black budget programs, like. What else like makes you curious about what's really happening? 

Doug: Right. So, um, Neil Armstrong, as everybody knows, um, was the first astronaut on the moon.

Um, and actually I think July 21st of this month is July 21st is going to be the 55th, uh, moon landing anniversary. So, um, there's been some rumors or leaked, leaked footage, whatever you want to call it, um, that when he was on the moon, um, He [00:42:00] saw a UFO and or aliens. Uh, it's not exactly clear exactly what he saw.

Uh, there was the channel that he was talking to us. Um, you know, when he landed on the moon, it was videotaped is on TV. He was talking, you know, you can hear him say, uh, once one small step for man, you know, and all that. Um, but then when he saw these. UFOs or, or spaceships or whatever. Um, he switched to a private channel, which, uh, was what they called it a medical channel, like, so in other words, if he was having like a medical problem or low oxygen or something, he can switch this channel and communicate back with, uh, you know, Houston mission control in Houston privately.

So, um, so anyways, apparently he switches to his channel and says something like they're here and they're watching us referring to the aliens on the moon. So I don't know how exactly that leaked out. Um, I don't remember exactly where I read it at or saw it out, but I've seen it a couple of times. And, uh, I have another quote [00:43:00] somewhere from him that was similar to that.

Um, and all of a sudden verified, you know, I can't say it's all true or accurate, but, um, this is just some of the stuff we've been seeing and reading. And it's, it's out there if you want to, if anybody wants to Google it, but, um, Yeah. So, um, so that was Neil Armstrong's thing. And then, um, also I think it was Apollo 17.

I was going to look it up later or earlier today when I was getting ready to talk to you, but I just slipped my mind, but I think it was Apollo 17, which was the last man mission to the moon. Uh, allegedly, of course, um, they, when they, when they, so they, they, they got back in their lunar lander and they took off from the moon and they linked back up with the command module.

And when they did, so after they got back in the command module. It basically ejected the, um, or jettisoned the, uh, lunar lander off the command module and shot it back down into the moon, basically. [00:44:00] And to see what would happen when it collided with the moon. So when it collided with the moon, it caused the moon to ring like a bell, which was indicating that it was hollow.

And, uh, some of the articles I'm reading about that are, are claiming that the moon rang like a bell for, uh, 30 minutes. So, um, I don't really know what they mean by ring like a bell exactly because, um, you know, sound can't travel through space. So I don't know if they mean that they had like some kind of sensors that were able to pick up the vibration from the moon, or if they left sensors behind on the moon that could pick up the sound, or I'm not exactly sure how they knew that, but there are articles out there about that.

And then there's another story about, um, one of the Apollo missions that, um, orbited the, uh, orbited around the, uh, dark side of the moon, the back side of the moon. And when, so when astronauts go around the backside of the moon, they can't receive radio transmissions from earth because the moon [00:45:00] blocks the radio waves out.

So they're, they're basically radio silent for however long it takes them to get around the moon on the backside. So while they're around on the backside, um, they started hearing strange music playing over their radio. Um, and it's not like a radio in the car. It's like a communication radio, of course we're talking about.

So where's the music coming from? Like if they're supposed to be radio silent. Where's it coming from? You know, so, uh, all this stuff I've been finding out through my research, um, you know, and, and, and then I don't, I don't really know much about the black budget programs. I do exist. You know, there's, there's programs out there that, um, seem to just money and we don't know where the money goes.

Um, there's documents that are all blacked out. Like that's why they call them black budget programs. Cause you, uh, you go to research the, uh, You know, the, the paper trail and everything will be blacked out with a black marker, you know, it'll say the date on the paper and, you know, maybe the little bit of [00:46:00] letterhead and then the rest of the whole document will be blacked out with like maybe a word or two at the bottom, you know, so, um, that's the government for that.

They won't tell us where that money goes. Um, but apparently, uh, you know, there's been a lot of movies made about the men in black, um, a lot of goofy movies. Um, but, um, A lot of people claim they're, they're real people, um, which is kind of what Agent X is in my book. She's kind of, it kind of alludes to her being a part of that organization.

Um, but the Men in Black, um, so a lot of people have had like alien encounters or close encounters, alien craft. Um, a lot of them claim to a day or two later or even hours later, get a strange visit by two or three, Large, usually large men in black uniforms or black suits. Uh, and they never say who exactly they work for, but they show up and they, they ask strange questions.

And some of these people, um, [00:47:00] that have these encounters, like they haven't even had a chance to tell anybody yet. Like it just happened. And they're so freaked out about it that they don't decide they decide not to tell anybody about it because people are going to think they're crazy. But then these men in black show up and how they know how they know that they had an encounter.

You know, like they didn't tell anybody yet. So, um, so that's, that's, that's kind of a weird consistency. I found what the men in black is. Seem to just show up out of nowhere. Um, but they show up, they ask a lot of questions, like, what'd you see? You know, where were you? Like, did you touch it? Did they, you know, like, uh, did you tell anybody, um, just taking pictures, like that kind of stuff.

And then some people even say that, uh, the men in black threatened them. Like, you know, don't tell anybody about this. You know, if you care about your family or you care about yourself or you care about not losing your job, uh, you won't tell anybody and then they just leave as, As soon as like, you know, just like they came, they, they left just without a trace, you know, so, um, so yeah, that's pretty, pretty interesting, um, but [00:48:00] I'm not really into aliens or conspiracy theories or nothing.

I just, all this research I've done is, um, just based off of the dreams. It's not stuff that I've been into for, you know, my whole life. It's just, it's just basically in reference to all the dreams and experiences I've had, um, trying to get some background information on it. 

Amina: Yeah, definitely. Um, that's interesting.

And yeah, I can imagine it's a scary experience. I mean, there's so much mystery behind these men in black government type characters. Um, and it's interesting how some of these, you know, things you're, you're researching, you know, line up with things that you talk about in your story. Um, About how these, for example, these aliens being so advanced that they can control our primitive technology and our radio transmissions.

Um, I, I mean, that makes sense to me. If they're really capable of doing these types of things, they, you know, our technology probably is like so, um, ancient and primitive to them, but, um, Yeah, the moon being having these big craters [00:49:00] and actually being hollow is really interesting to me, um, which you also talk about in your story, um, how they emerge from these holes in the, in the moon.

Um, so, yeah, I think that's really cool. And another element that I wanted to mention that really stood out to me was. In the book, you talk about this taxidermy metaphor, like these aliens, you know, they pin up these human bodies with a display, you know, little badge and everything, like they're so proud of this hunt they just, this prey they just killed and whatnot.

Um, and it sounds so terrible and gruesome, um, but then I'm like, we do that to deers and, you know, whatever hunters do, they put it up on, above their mantle. So, it's quite funny when you think about it that way. It's like normal to us, but when it, when we're the victims of it, it's, uh, so gruesome, um. So, yeah, I don't know.

What do you think about that? Do you think that maybe it's just normal to aliens to, to treat us that way? And do you think there are aliens that maybe [00:50:00] believe in us a little bit more and support us? Do you think that's a possibility? 

Doug: Uh, it's definitely possible. Um, you know, some people say that there's good aliens and bad aliens, bad, excuse me, bad aliens.

Um, like, I guess like people, you know, um, You know, sometimes there's good people, sometimes there's bad people, um, so I, I guess maybe, uh, you know, I don't, I don't know if it's a, if it's an advanced civilization thing, civilization thing, um, like we're supposed to, human beings are supposed to be the most intelligent known species on this planet, but yet we've conducted so many experiments with animals, you know, in the name of science, you know, some of them were very cruel experiments.

You know, uh, we've killed billions of animals and our experiments, you know, uh, just trying to figure out, you know, medical technology and all that stuff. Um, [00:51:00] and so what, uh, the question is, would a more advanced species than us do the same thing because they're more advanced than us and they can, you know, they have the power to do so.

Um, you know, it's possible. That's scary, but it's possible. Um, but then on the other end of the spectrum, I've also heard that, you And this, this is again, like, research I've done, um, not saying any of this is true, but I'm just saying this is what I've kind of read about and seen, um, some people claim that they've been abducted and before they were abducted they were having extreme medical problems, like cancer and, uh, Other things.

And after I got abducted, miraculously, the cancer was gone, which was verified by a doctor afterwards. Like I think one guy said he had like tuberculosis or lung cancer or something. And, uh, the, the, the scan at his doctor showed nothing but black in his lungs. And he was, you know, [00:52:00] And then he got abducted and then he came back and he wasn't coughing anymore, didn't have any problems.

So he went to the doctor and the doctor did another scan on him and found his lungs were perfectly clear. So, uh, and I've heard a lot of stories like that, you know, so it could probably go both ways. You know, and it goes back to the thing, like, you know, some people, there's different types of aliens, you know, um, and some are good and some are bad.

So, um, I don't have the answers and I don't think anybody really does, but, um, but it's interesting to think about. 

Amina: Yeah, definitely. I mean, your story made me think about a lot, honestly. And, you know, I respect you for not being biased. You know, you're not one way or the other with any of these theories.

You're just kind of like, hey, this is my dream. This is what happened to me. This is what I've learned. Do what you want with this information. And I think that's really cool. And just going back to the book a little bit, I, I love how it just flowed out of you. You just wrote this book up so quickly and [00:53:00] I really want everybody to read it.

It's such a good read. It took me, I mean, I was glued to it, so it took me like an hour or so to read. Um, so it's not too long or anything. Um, but how are you feeling now that you put it out there? Do you feel like it represents your dream and do you feel like you're doing a good job at honoring the story?

Doug: Yeah, I think it's good. Um, I feel better. Um, I was, I still kind of am, but I was very consumed by this whole thing. Um, it took up a lot of my thought. I was getting distracted at work and, uh, just getting distracted in general. I was just constantly thinking about this and I still do. Um, and so like getting feedback from people and even if it's negative feedback, just any kind of feedback, you know, um, as always good.

I like to hear people's thoughts and theories was one lady had an interesting theory that I was the shadow creature. Like I was actually at the. Alien or shadow creature in the dream. Like I was actually the, I [00:54:00] don't know what he called an antagonist or something, you know, the, the villain basically. Um, so yeah, so that was an interesting theory.

I never thought about like, what if I was the, the bad guy in the dream, you know? Um, so yeah, it's, it's kind of interesting to get the feedback and, uh, it's good. It helps me out, try to put some of the clues together, you know, cause, cause I don't have the answers, obviously I'm just kind of the messenger.

So like Um, maybe somebody out there knows more about this than I do. Um, you know, when they reach out to me and tell me what they think, it helps me out a lot and it makes me see things from a different perspective, or sometimes it makes me research something that I didn't think about before. So yeah, it's all, it's all been pretty positive.

Amina: Yeah, that's good. Um, I mean, you're, you're putting your story out there and people can, you know, do their own research regarding what, what curiosities they get from it. Um, and is there anything else that you're still curious about with these dreams, anything else that you still want to learn or that's still developing for you?

Doug: [00:55:00] Um, yeah, I'd like to, you know, like I said, like I still, I still feel like I'm missing some of the puzzle pieces. Like, um, like, you know, even though I wrote the dream or even I wrote the story and it flowed out of me, like. Um, you know, I still haven't had some of the elements of the story. I haven't had a dream yet.

So like, um, you know, I would like to have those, those dreams, um, believe it or not, even though they're nightmares, I'd still like to have them just so I could like get some closure, um, and see what may have happened. Um, and, uh, I'd like to know like what, obviously I'd like to know what these beings in the, obviously I know what the astronauts are, but.

I'd like to know what these shadows and beings were in the dreams. Um, you know what they represent or what they are. Um, you know, I'd really like to know their intentions. Obviously there were bad intentions, but. Why were their intentions bad? Like what caused them to do these evil things? Um, [00:56:00] or maybe they don't see it as evil.

Maybe they see us as evil, you know? Um, so that, and that's something else I kind of mentioned in the story. Um, there's a quote in there when the alien says telepathically and he tells why he's about to do what he's doing. Um, I won't give it away, but you know, it, it, it kind of aligns with what I'm trying to say here.

Um, but. Yeah, I have so many questions still, you know, like who are these beings? What were their intentions? Um, did this really happen? Was it part of the Apollo program? Um, was it Skylab? Cause like I said, Skylab was pretty similar to the Apollo program as far as the suits and the timeframe. Um, so yeah, I have a lot of questions still.

Amina: Yeah, well, if any more dreams pop up that unravel any more clues, you have to keep me posted because I'm invested in the story now. 

Doug: I definitely will. 

Amina: Yeah. Wow. Well, this has been so good and, and just so juicy with details. [00:57:00] Is there anything that we haven't covered? I'm really going to encourage people to read the book for themselves.

So all the little details, you know, they can read and then come back to this episode, but is there any, any, uh, Any big parts that you still wanted to get off your chest that we didn't cover? 

Doug: Um, not really, uh, just, you know, if anybody's curious about the book, um, It's only like 13, 000 words, um, It's actually more of a short story than a book.

It's, I call it a book because it's divided into chapters. And, uh, so it is a quick read if you're interested, um, But, uh, yeah, uh, not, not a whole lot else, you know, just, um, Yeah, I think that's about it. 

Amina: Cool. I love that. And I just want to end off with this quote that you said in, in your email when we were kind of going over the questions and I really love it.

I think it encompasses this whole, this whole thing really well. Um, and you know, your, your story, it's a, like you said, quote unquote fictional story, but you said in your email, it's like giving [00:58:00] medicine to a toddler. If you give them the raw medicine, they won't take it. But if you mix it with honey, they'll love it without realizing it's actually medicine.

And I think that's so applicable here. That's such a good metaphor because we're slipping people a little bit of truth here, and they can kind of uncover the truth. However, you know, however, works for them. 

Doug: Exactly. You know, and even even if this didn't happen, like, if it's just my imagination, um, the government It doesn't change the fact that the government is still very corrupt.

There's still been a lot of black budget programs. And, um, I'm reading Bob Lazar's book right now. Um, he was a physicist that worked, um, for the government at Area 51 and S4. And ironically, the book is called dreamland. And, uh, and he was basically the, the original whistleblower, um, that came out and said, Hey, there's the government's experimenting with alien craft at Mary 51 and S four.

Um, I also highly recommend, you know, people who are interested in the subject tech, check that book [00:59:00] out, but. It's, it's, it's basically about what I'm talking about here is, you know, the government tries to hide stuff from us and, um, there's stuff going on. They, they lie to us about that. They say that there's not this technology doesn't exist, but clearly it does.

You know, we just had these, uh, classified. Uh, well not classified, but the government basically came out with these congressional hearings, uh, you know, for over the past two years saying that, you know, yeah, you know, UFOs are real, we don't know what they are, um, you know, they had pilots F 18 pilots testified in these congressional hearings and all kinds of different people working for the government, um, testified.

And so, yeah, even if, even if Dustin wasn't a real astronaut, none of this stuff happened, um, still, it's still based on true things that have happened in the government, because like, like I said, they lied to us all the time and. They, they, they treat people like they're expendable. So, yeah. Um, yeah, I think it's, I think it's pretty [01:00:00] accurate.

So, 

Amina: yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a good representation, um, even if it's fictional of just things that are going on and we already know we're not the only beings in the universe. So that's no secret for sure. But yeah, wow. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. This has been really great. Um, it's been fun following along with your story and I'm excited to see how it continues to unfold.

Um, I'll be looking out for the next book. 

Doug: Okay. Well, thank you very much. And, uh, I enjoyed being on your show. 

Amina: Thanks. So I'm going to just end the recording really quick and make sure it was.

Today's episode is really exciting. It's about a dream story that really moved me. And I always try to create a space where people feel comfortable, like emailing me and talking about their dream experiences. And so I'm glad you reached out. You sent me your story and I read it. And honestly, I was really blown away.

And they're regarding the Apollo astronauts. So, I'll kind of let you tell the [01:01:00] story about how the dreams started that relate to this story. Um, and I know that it goes even further back than that. Um, because the dreams had started in adulthood. But, I know that your interest in space and astronauts started way before that.

So, um, yeah, I'll let you kind of introduce yourself and tell me where it all began. Okay. Well, first of all, thank you for having me on the show. I appreciate it. And I have to preface this by saying I was born, uh, like 10 years after the Apollo program ended and nobody in my family was ever involved in the space program.

Doug: So I really don't know where any of these dreams or memories or interests have come from. I have no explanation for it, but about 12 years ago, I started having some strange, uh, nightmares and, um, they, they actually, so at first I didn't really think anything of them, but then they started recurring and repeating and that's when I started to write them down in a little journal.

Um, [01:02:00] and, um, so the first one I started having, uh, is a, is a dream I call the shadow figure. And, um, so in all these dreams, um. I'm, I guess I'm an astronaut in these dreams and all of them. Um, and I'm seeing these things unfold either in first person point of view or in third person point of view. So in first port, in first person point of view, I'm looking through the, uh, the visor glass of a space helmet and I can feel the space suit on my body.

It's an Apollo space suit, which I know because, uh, when I see it in third person, you can tell it's an Apollo space suit. Um, it's bright white. It seems to be made out of like a nylon fabric. Um, and, um, there's an American flag sewn into the left sleeve and an Apollo patch sewn into the chest. So there's a lot of details about the suit I can go into later on, I guess, but, um, they're, they're consistent in all the dreams, the, uh, the S the space suit and, uh, the, uh, the, [01:03:00] the reference, the point of views that I S I see everything from.

So the, the first go back to the first dream again, um, the first dream I call is the shadow figure dream, and I'm lying on my back, um, In my space suit and I start seeing, and so I'm lying on my back and I can't get up immediately. I can't get up. I don't know what's holding me down. I don't know why I'm stuck to the floor.

Um, I can't really see where I am. Everything's kind of gray. Um, it seems like I'm in some kind of, uh, like hallway or corridor or something like that. Um, but it's, but it's hard to say, it's hard to tell what I'm actually in. Um, and, um, uh, I'm desperate, I'm desperately trying to get up. I can't get up. And all of a sudden I start seeing this shadow emerge.

And, uh, at first it's, it's on the ground and it's just past my, my feet. And, um, and it's all of a sudden I'm just instantly terrified as soon as I see this [01:04:00] shadow and the shadow starts getting bigger and bigger as it starts approaching me. And like I said, at first it's on the floor, but then as it gets closer and closer, it starts rising up the wall.

Uh, as it rises up the wall, uh, I'm struck by a couple things. One is that, uh, the shadow is extremely, extremely dark. It's like, it's like almost, it's like almost absorbing the light, if that makes any sense. Um, and then, uh, the other thing I noticed about it is it's not in the shape of, uh, like an astronaut or a person wearing a spacesuit.

It's, it's, uh, definitely like a humanoid type figure, but it's not, it's not a human, in other words, um, can't tell exactly what kind of creature it is. Other than that, it's. Seems to be bipedal and have two arms and a head. Um, and it keeps getting closer and closer and it keeps rising up the wall as it's getting closer.

And I'm just, uh, I'm, I'm desperately trying to get up. And at some, at some, uh, in some parts of the stream, um, I'm experiencing this dream [01:05:00] in third person, which means I can actually see the astronaut on the ground and that's how I can tell, um, it's an Apollo space suit. And, um, and I can also look into the, uh, his, his, his helmet and see his face.

And, uh, I can tell it's not my face, which is the weird thing. Like it is, it is a clean shaven, uh, white male, but it's not my face. And, um, and so, uh, kind of going off on a little tangent here, but I, I named the astronaut Dustin. Um, I don't really know why I call him Dustin. I don't think his name has ever been revealed in any of the dreams.

But, um, somehow I just came up with that name seemingly out of thin air. Um, it just seems to fit for whatever reason. So anyway, so I can, so if I say Dustin, that's who I'm referring to. So I can see Dustin on the ground and it's Apollo space suit. He's just, we're trying to get up. Sometimes I'm seeing it from third person.

Sometimes I'm seeing the stream from the inside of the space helmet. [01:06:00] And, uh, and just as the shadow is completely over me or Dustin in the stream, um, I wake up, I snap out of it. So I never get to see the actual creature, what, what was making the shadow. Um, so, um, I just, I just got to see the shadow and, um, and I've had this dream a few times.

Um, and, uh, so I've kind of tried to figure out what the shadow is. I don't know if it's the shadow of an alien. Or I've also even wondered if the shadow is, um, like a, like demonic, like if it's a, if it's a demon, um, which I don't know why a demon and an astronaut would be, you know, in the same realm, but, um, it's just something that I've thought of.

I've also wondered if the shadow is just representing something, um, like death, um, maybe it's not an actual creature, it's just representative of something. So I don't know. I have a lot of [01:07:00] questions and theories about that dream. Um, so anyways, I don't know if you want me to keep going or if you want me to, yeah, I mean, it's up to you however much you want to share.

Amina: I could ask questions at, at any moment. Um, so I know you were trying to make sense of these dreams. Um, Well, did we go over all the dream point of view so we can just tell the story of the dream first? Okay. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm, I'm, this is my first time on a podcast like this. So you're, you're doing great.

I let people talk as much as they want to, and I'll come in with questions once you feel like you said what you had to say on that. Okay. So, uh, so the next dream that I had, uh, And I'd like to say that these dreams don't seem to occur in chronological order, which I'll talk a little bit more about, I guess, later when we talk about the book, but, um, they just seem to happen just in random, uh, points in time during this incident that occurred [01:08:00] in space, I guess, um, if that makes any sense, but, um, anyways, um, so the second dream I had was, um, was I call it at the hatch.

Doug: And so in this dream, I'm back in the, uh, white Apollo space suit. I'm looking at. My hands, which are inside of, um, some white space gloves. Um, so I'm looking through the, uh, the visor glass of the space helmet. And, um, I can't remember if there's any sound in the stream. Uh, some, some of these dreams, they, they get kind of blurred together and vague, some of the details that might be crisscrossing, but, um, at any rate, I know that I'm breathing heavy.

Um, and I'm, I'm at this hatch on the, on this wall of the space. What's what I guess is a spacecraft now. So this, this dream kind of offers that clue. I'm inside of the spacecraft. Um, and I'm at this hatch on this wall. It's like a gray hatch and all the mechanisms like [01:09:00] of the hatch, all the locking mechanisms are exposed and it looks very intricate.

Um, and there's like, there's like a lever, like a small lever on the hatch that I'm desperately trying to open and, um, to, to unlock this hatch. And as soon as the dream starts, I know the creature from the other nightmares is coming up behind me. Like he's coming to get me or Dustin, you know, and, uh, And I don't know how I, I know this cause I never see him in the screen, but it's just a paranormal type feeling, I can sense him coming up behind me and I have to open up this hatch to escape him.

And. So this hatch I'm trying to open it, it won't, it will not budge. Um, it's the, the mechanism seems like it's jammed. I'm trying as hard as I can. I'm also in a very low gravity environment or zero gravity environment. So I guess I'm in space and it seems like every time I try to open the hatch, um, you know, I'm struggling against this hatch and I keep floating up in the air.

Like my, my, my space [01:10:00] boots won't stay on the ground. So that makes it even harder. And, uh, my visor glass is starting to. Fog over because my heavy breathing because I'm struggling on this hatch and the hatch seems like it's welded shut. And, uh, I also seems like, it also seems like I can't manipulate the controls because either, either because I'm in a panic or because, um, my, my gloves are too bulky.

And uh, so, so eventually I, I, I snap out of the stream and I wake up, um, and I don't know if the creature ever gets, or the alien ever gets Dustin, um, I don't, I don't ever find out in the stream, um, but it's pretty, it's pretty intense, even though it's, you don't actually see the creature in the stream, but it's still pretty intense because I know I'm trying to, I know I'm trying to escape.

The, uh, the alien or the creature. And, uh, it seems like the hatch never opens. So, uh, it's, it's pretty scary. And I, and I believe the stream has only ever been in first person. Um, [01:11:00] I don't really recall it ever being in third person. So it's entirely from a first person perspective from what I remember. So, um, and then the next one, the next one I've had, I've had, I've had quite a few different dreams, but.

Um, these are the big three I'm basically talking about. Um, but I'll, I'll mention some of the other details, some of their dreams after. But, um, the next one is actually, I don't really consider it a dream. Um, I was laying in my bed and I was trying to go to sleep, but I didn't actually, I wasn't actually asleep yet.

I was kind of in that in between state of about to fall asleep, but not asleep yet. So I don't really know if this is a dream or a memory or what I wouldn't, you know, I don't really know how to describe what it, what exactly it is, but. Um, anyways, I was about to go to sleep, I was laying in my bed and all of a sudden I'm struck by this memory.

Um, I'm dusting in the dream again, in the space suit again, but I'm looking at another astronaut. [01:12:00] Um, and he's also in an Apollo space suit. But, uh, this astronaut is on his back, um, on some kind of, like, Surgical table or operating table and uh, he's desperately trying to get up Uh, but he can't because he's being sucked down to this table somehow and i'll come back to that in a minute But in the background of this, um, so so the the room let me describe the room real quick The room is uh, really obscure again It's kind of like the first dream where I can't really see too much detail about where i'm at But the room is like a foggy gray color.

Um can't really see too much detail about the room itself um, and But in the background, I hear this, both of us, me and the other astronaut, um, hear this. Pneumatic drill, um, sound and it's very intense. It sounds like a dentist drill. Like if you're at the dentist office and you're getting a cleaning and you hear somebody in the next room over getting a root canal or something like that, and you hear the [01:13:00] pneumatic sound of the drill, that's kind of what the sound was like, except it was much louder than that, much more intense than the dream.

Um, and both of us somehow knew that the drill was about to be used on, um, the astronaut that's laying on the table and, or, or both of us. And, uh, so we're both in a total panic trying to get away from, yeah, I say my dog's in my face. You gotta be, Oh, good. Right. Um, so anyways, um, um, we're both in a total state of panic with this, with this drill going on and, uh, let me, let me get my dog out.

I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah, no worries, take your time and do what you gotta do. I have dogs, so I [01:14:00] understand. Sure, take your time.

So the table that he's on, um, it's some kind of like, it's, it's like a weird surgical table or operating table, but it's about three or four inches thick. It's like this weird tan color, and it's got these dime sized or quarter sized holes in it. And I think the table was, Generating like a vacuum type force through these holes that was causing, that was causing the astronaut on the table to be sucked down to it.

Um, cause he's, he's, he's on his back. He's, he's desperately trying to get up off this table and he can't. Um, and so this, this drill sounds still going in the background. He's, he's struggling to get off the table. [01:15:00] And, um, and then all of a sudden I snap out of the dream and I don't ever remember, or I don't ever get to see what, um, what happened next.

Um, so, um, And like I said, I keep calling it a dream, but I don't know. I really don't know what to call it because like I said, I wasn't fully asleep yet. Um, and then that memory or dream, it only seemed to last a few seconds. Whereas the other dreams, um, seem to last, you know, a few minutes. This one was very quick.

It was almost like a miniature flashback, if that makes any kind of sense. Um, yeah, so, um, so many other dreams. I don't really remember very much. Sometimes I'll have this, like, like I'll have a dream and I'll, I'll wake up and then like, I won't really remember much about it other than there are astronauts in the dream, but, or something like that.

Um, yeah. I do recall in one of the dreams, I don't remember what exactly happened, but I remember the alien was, um, and the [01:16:00] dream was dark gray. He was very large, very muscular. Um, he was not your typical alien. Like, you know, like I know we're talking about aliens here. So nobody really knows. Right. But like.

Um, typically people describe aliens as being kind of smaller, um, like four feet tall, thin, with big black eyes and, um, these, these aliens in these dreams were, were not small, they were very large, probably seven feet or so. Um, and like I said, very muscular, not like bodybuilder muscular, but kind of like a, like a basketball player, like athletic muscles.

Um, So I don't, I don't really know, I don't know much about aliens as far as the different types of aliens, or, you know, some people claim to know what planets they come from and what the different types are, what their intentions are. I don't really know all that. I just know what I've experienced in my dreams and nightmares.

And these were little memories that I've had. Um, so. Yeah, that's pretty much all I got as far as dreams go. Um, [01:17:00] I don't know if you wanted to ask me a thing or whatever, but yeah, that's, that is really intense and it's cool. Definitely we can have similar dreams and flashbacks like you're mentioning in different phases of sleep.

Amina: Like, um, that kind of in between phase, it's called hypnagogia and we can still have interesting dreams there. Um, but these definitely feel like more than just dreams. It's more than just, oh, I'm really interested in space. And so I'm thinking about it while I'm sleeping. This, this is definitely deep. So how did you start to make sense of these dreams?

I can imagine that's very traumatizing and stressful to wake up, um, after something like that. Um, and I know you started to Google things and research about space and all of that, but what was your first reaction and how did you process these experiences? Um, so first, First reaction I had was, I thought it was the first one was sleep paralysis because I was on my back and couldn't get up and this creature's approaching me and it sounds very much like [01:18:00] a sleep paralysis type situation.

Doug: And I've had, I have sleep paralysis from time to time. So it is quite intense. Um, but, um, so I thought that's what it was at first. And then as I started having other dreams that were similar. Um, you know, the, the, the, the, always the same theme as I'm in a white Apollo space suit all the time, every dream.

And, um, it seems like I'm in space or some kind of spacecraft. So that's always a common theme and there's always a creature. So, um, so that, so then it was like pieces to a puzzle. That's kind of how I look at all this. And, um, and so I started writing them down or typing them out in a, in a dream journal, uh, that I have and, um, just to kind of keep track of them and, uh, You know, every now and then, if I have something, I'll note it in there.

Like if I have another dream or whatever, I haven't had one in a while. The last one was that last, the last one was a memory recall thing. I was talking about that was, that was about [01:19:00] four months ago now. Um, that was the very last one that I've had. Um, but yeah, so I started writing things down in a journal and kind of.

Seeing the patterns. Um, and then, uh, I started writing, I decided to write a book about it. Uh, and, uh, the fictional book based off of the dreams. And what I did with the book was I started putting these things in kind of chronological order. What I, cause I think all this is from the same incident. Um, I don't think they're just random different incidents.

I think it's all the same incident, like little, little snapshots of the same event. So, uh, so I started trying to figure out, well, what's going on? You know, what would be, what would the order be? And so I started kind of trying to, uh, put those to put those together in order. And I came up with a fictional story, quote unquote.

Um, and you know, I did, I did add in some details, you know, that I had to create some stuff to make it flow and add different [01:20:00] characters and, um, and, you know, and I had to do some, a little bit of research on some of the, some of the, um, historical elements of the story. So that's also in there as well. But, um, but the, but writing the story really helped me put it together and, and figure some of it out.

At least, um, I don't know, I still don't know what it means, uh, who these astronauts were, if they were actually real, um, you know, I have to throw the disclaimer out there, this could all just be my wild imagination, um, you know, coming to me in dream format. So there's always that possibility as well. Um, but yeah, so the, the, the story really helped me kind of.

Put it all together and try to figure it out a little bit and help help make it into a like a pattern Kind of like I said putting the puzzle pieces together into a bigger picture. So Yeah, I love it. And the story is really great. I will link it because I really want people to read it. Um, and you're a great writer too.

Amina: And I love how it just flowed through you so naturally, [01:21:00] um, as if you're really accessing the memories of somebody that lived. And like you said, maybe, maybe it's just your crazy imagination, but if that's true, it's a hell of a story with a lot of details and. Things that surprisingly add up to things that actually happened as well.

Um, but what really fascinates me too, before we get deeper into the book, which I do want to talk about, there's so many details to unpack here. Um, before the dreams even started, you grew up with a young age and this interest in space, um, before Google was even a thing. So can you take me back to like your childhood interests and what sort of connections you've noticed to this story before you started having the dreams?

Doug: Sure. So, um, I was born in the early eighties. Um, and, uh, like you said, there wasn't really any internet back then. Uh, I don't even think I had a computer in my house till I was in my teenage years. Um, and so I don't know the exact age, but around five or seven, somewhere in that age range, um, I started having [01:22:00] a interest in space.

Uh, and I know a lot of boys do that, you know, a lot of boys, a lot of boys and girls. Um, you know, I want to be astronauts and, uh, dreaming about space and all that sort of stuff. But mine was a little bit, a little bit more intense than that. Um, I started drawing diagram, uh, detailed diagrams of multi stage rockets, multi stage rockets, which are basically rockets that, um, as they, uh, fly through the air or fly, fly into space, um, they separate into different stages and the other use stages fall back to earth.

Usually with parachutes, um, and they, they're reusable. So I started drawing detail, detailed diagrams of these multistage rocket rockets and, uh, spacecraft and other things. And then, uh, as I got a little bit older, you know, I'm still just a little kid, less than 10 years old. Um, I started making rockets out of.

cardboard and construction paper and, uh, plastic [01:23:00] bottles. And, you know, I got my hot, my mom's hot glue gun and start gluing all stuff together and, uh, started producing these rockets that were usually, you know, a few feet tall. Um, and. Um, and like, uh, like I mentioned in the email, uh, I packed fire firecrackers or fireworks into the bottom of one of them.

And, uh, we lived on a cul de sac and, uh, went out there one day and tried to, you know, I was thinking the fireworks would blast it off, you know, and, uh, ended up blowing up the building. In the, in the coal sack there, but, uh, but yeah, I was doing that kind of stuff as a little kid. Um, and, uh, uh, I later found out that the rocket that I was drawing and building was, uh, the Saturn five, which was used on the Apollo program.

And, uh, if you ever get a chance, uh, there's a, there's a space museum in Huntsville, Alabama, it's called the U. S. Space and Rocket Center. And, uh, hanging from the ceiling in the Apollo, uh, building is a Saturn V rocket, and it's gonna [01:24:00] separate out into its multiple stages. It's really cool to see. Um, so, uh, so anyways, that's what I was building as a little kid.

Um, so my grandfather, he died before I was born, but he was a Marine in World War II. So, uh, so I, I kind of lost Interest in the space stuff. And, uh, I started gaining interest in, in the military. So, uh, when I, when I got out of high school, I went into Marines and I was in the military for a while and, uh, I was also in law enforcement for a while.

So I kind of forgot about all the space stuff and had lived this whole other. Life that didn't have anything to do with space. So then about 12 years ago, I was wanting to start having the dreams. And so it was separated by, you know, many, many, you know, decades of just Living as a Marine and as a, as a police officer and, uh, also, um, more construction than all these other things.

So, um, you know, it, it's [01:25:00] not like I was constantly, um, you know, researching space stuff and then had these dreams, you know, it came many, many, many years later. So that's, that's kind of, um, how my life story goes with all this. Yeah. Interesting. And I was also wondering when the dreams happened later in your adult life, what do you think triggered it?

Amina: Like, do you think there was anything going on in your life, maybe a spiritual awakening or anything you think that. Made this start happen? The dream specifically? No, uh, not really. I, you know, I was living on a farm actually, um, 12 years ago. Uh, my wife and I bought a, uh, homestead and we started farming out there and Living out in the middle of nowhere.

Doug: Um, I never, I've never been a big TV watcher. I've always, um, if I do watch TV, it's a documentary or something like that. Um, I like war movies and stuff like that. So I don't really [01:26:00] watch much sci fi or space stuff. Um, so yeah, there was really nothing that seemed to trigger any of this. Um, I had another weird dream and I don't know if this is related, but I don't even know what, what it was.

And. My son, oddly enough, my son had the same dream. Um, and I don't know if this is related, but I'm gonna go ahead and tell it to you. Um, but I was, uh, I was, this was in the house I'm living at now, not on the farm anymore. Um, this was about two or three years ago. Um, I was in my bed, I was laying on my back and I had just fallen asleep and all of a sudden, um, so, so I was, I was in bed and my wife was still watching TV in the TV room.

So I was completely sealed off in the bedroom, door was shut, just fell asleep. All of a sudden this bright white light, I mean it's bright, I thought it was like a spotlight in my face, starts shining in my eyes, and I wait, so I don't know if I'm dreaming this [01:27:00] or if I actually woke up and this actually happened, I couldn't tell you, but it was super, super realistic if it was a dream, but this bright white light is all of a sudden shining in my eyes, and it's almost blinding, it's so bright, and my first thought was my wife is messing with me, she's shining a flashlight in my face for some reason, so And so I wake up or I think I'm awake, you know, and, um, and all of a sudden there's this cantaloupe sized or softball size, bright white orb in front of my face, four or five inches from my face.

And I know I'm probably, I know I probably sound lunatic right now, but this is just, I'm just telling my story. And, uh, And so, um, so this orb, it almost seems to communicate with me telepathically because it says it doesn't really speak to me in like English or nothing, but like, I just get the sense in my head.

It's like, it's like saying like, Hey, I'm bored. I'm just wanting to mess with you for entertainment. And as soon as it says that to me, it goes across the room and it flies into the wall and [01:28:00] it kind of dematerializes in the wall and it vanishes. And like I said, I know I sound crazy, but this may, this may have been just a dream, but.

This is the next part of the story. So I kind of, you know, like I said, I'm a, I'm a Marine and former law enforcement, so like I kind of rationalized things very quickly. So I rationalized it, Hey, this was just a dream. And you know, that's that. So about, um, I don't know, about four or six months later, my wife and I are sitting in the, uh, TV room watching TV and the stairwell leads up directly from the TV room and my son's bedroom is right at the top of the stairs.

And he, uh, my son's about, uh, he was about, uh, Maybe five or six at the time. I think it was five. And all of a sudden we hear him just screaming and crying. So, and you know, this is, this is that night stays in bed. So we run up there and, uh, get in his bed, you know, get, get, get with him in his bed and ask him, Hey, what's going on, you know, and he said, I had a [01:29:00] nightmare and I was like, oh, okay, man, uh, tell me about it.

And he said, well, there's this bright light all of a sudden. And it was in my face and I woke up and it was like a ball of light in front of my face. And then as soon as I saw it, it flew across the room and disappeared into the wall. And I was like, holy crap, like, cause I did not tell anybody, well I told my wife about the dream, but I did not tell my sons, she didn't tell anybody, and it was like almost verbatim what I had seen, so, I don't know how to explain that, and I know that's like, I know that's like way off the, the actual thing.

I mean it's relevant though, because that sounds like it could be some sort of alien encounter. Yeah, it was, it was super strange. Like, I don't know what to make of that. Um, especially since my son described the same thing. Yeah. You're not crazy. Don't tell yourself that like, there's so much we don't know about the world.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, that was, uh, that was another thing that, uh, that I forgot [01:30:00] about it. I didn't, I didn't think to mention that before. So, yeah. So I don't know. I don't know if, I don't know, you know, what the orb, um, and the, and the dreams, I don't know if somebody. That has passed away is trying to, for some reason has chosen me to tell these stories or to talk to me about them.

I don't know. Um, like I said, I'm usually a pretty grounded down to earth person, but, um, you know, all this stuff is bizarre. Uh, I don't know what to make of it. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's very possible that you're, you're telling somebody's story or that this is a past life that you've lived. Um, you know, both could be possible depending on, you know, what you believe, but, um, the unique different points of view of these dreams throughout the years fascinates me a lot.

Amina: Um, and the way that it allows you to put together the story. Um, I But these are more than just dreams. Like, you feel personally connected to one astronaut, Dustin, in particular, right? Um, and you're kind of seeing all of [01:31:00] this unfold through his eyes and in different ways. Um, so yeah, do you, do you feel like a personal connection to him rather deeper than just watching a scene play out like a movie?

Doug: In a, in a way, yes, um, I feel, uh, I feel like me and Dustin, like if, if I was standing in a room with Dustin, um, I feel like me and him would be very like almost polar opposites. Uh, I'm a military man. Um, uh, you know, just, um, hard charging kind of guy. And I feel like Dustin was kind of the scientific, more of the scientific kind of guy.

Um, you know, uh, I picture him as a, as a thinner, thinner guy. For some reason, this is all in my mind's eye. So I'm just explaining to you what. But I, what I'm visualizing, um, probably, probably really good guy, you know, uh, scientific type guy, super smart. Um, and just an astronaut who was trying to, you know, explore space or, uh, [01:32:00] you know, just live that kind of lifestyle.

Um, that's very different from mine. Um, and so I feel connected to him in the way that, um, I feel like I've been, Tasked with the story of, you know, just trying to get the story out there. Um, I don't know exactly what happened to him. Um, if this whole thing is, is, has really happened. Um, but the fictional story that I wrote, um, the details just seemed to flow out of me as I typed out the story.

So, um, yeah, so I feel connected to him in that way. Like it just, it's like, I almost know all this stuff. And then, um, like I mentioned, this is kind of on a, kind of in the same realm, but a little bit. Um, uh, the, the spacesuit going back to the spacesuit, you know, like to me, that's kind of like a very personalized piece of gear that an astronaut would have kind of like a, like a Marine's rifle or a Marine's, uh, helmet or, you know, [01:33:00] uniform, um, something that you have and hold every day as part of your job.

Um, and so, uh, the spacesuit for him would have been the same, uh, something that he wears in space, uh, you know, has to take care of, and it has to take care of him. Um, it's basically literally his lifeline out in space. And so like. In these dreams, like, I could feel the spacesuit on my body, like, against my skin, you know, it felt like, it felt like I was in, like, a sleeping bag, if that makes any sense.

It was bulky, but comfortable. Um, so, like, so, like, I feel connected to him in that way, like, like, you know, like, I kind of, almost, like, I feel, like, what his life was like in those dreams. last few moments, I guess. So, yeah, yeah, those are such vivid memories. And that's such a unique feeling to really remember what that space feels like.

Amina: That's not something that a lot of people can say that they really know what it's like. So that's interesting. And I want to dive into Um, some of these characters here in your story, and then we'll get into [01:34:00] like, you know, the history of what's actually going on with space missions and things. Um, but there's some really interesting characters here.

Um, you have the three astronaut crew, um, which, as you mentioned, some of them are from the dream, and some of them are kind of things you've pieced together. Um, which turned out to be quite interestingly accurate. Um, but then you have these government type personalities, particularly this one Agent X. Um, does this Agent X ever appear in the dream or is it just kind of, um, part of the story that fits in?

Doug: No, she never, Agent X never appears in any of the dreams. Um, but um, I created her character. So, so Um, a lot of these characters are originating chapter one and chapter one is, uh, probably the most, well, so I took the most creative freedoms with chapter one. I'll say, um, it's pretty much entirely just, you know, I just wrote it, um, from imagination basically.[01:35:00] 

Um, Agent X, uh, there's a couple reasons why I created her character. Um, one, I wanted somebody to represent the corruption of the government. I wanted to put that corruption into a person. Um, she represents how the government feels like, uh, people are expendable. Um, you know, if people die. To accomplish an objective.

Um, it doesn't matter. Um, we can, you know, she, she kind of represents the deception of the government, um, the coverups. She's that she's all of that one person. Um, the other reason why I wanted agent X is because, um, I wanted her character to kind of be the polar opposite of, um, Kaylee's character. Who's the spacecraft pilot.

Um, I wanted kind of a, uh, a sharp contrast between, uh, between the astronauts and the government, and especially. Being that Kaylee and Agent X are both females, um, I wanted to [01:36:00] create that sharp contrast and they're actually polar opposite characters in the book. Um, so yeah, so that's why I put her character in there and, uh, as well as the other agents that are there.

Um, and, uh, I'm planning on eventually writing a book two, a sequel to this book, and, um, it'll, it'll go more into Agent X's background and who she is and where she comes from. Um, and, uh, it'll be a lot, a lot more about her, but, um, In the first book, she's kind of a mystery still, she's, she's kind of just, uh, one of the, uh, kind of the people pulling the strings, so to speak.

Amina: Yeah, wow, I'm excited for when that comes out because, um, I'm really curious about learning more about this character from, from your perspective. Um, and it really makes sense, you know, this archetype of this, you know, lying. scamming government, um That they want to figure out more about the moon at all costs regardless of who it affects [01:37:00] Um, so they send out these three astronauts and I love the moment in your book where they all find out That the only thing they have in common is they have in common is that they're all Not close with their families.

They don't have anybody that would go looking for them. Um, and you know, it's interesting cause when you start lining up your, your story with a lot of conspiracy theories out there or stories out there about what happened really with these moon missions, um, there's some theories that. You know, we went to the moon and we're told by some aliens not to come back.

And maybe we got a really gruesome warning where these aliens, I mean, these astronauts in these secret missions were killed, like in your story. And why would such a government who clearly doesn't care about people, um, continue to send more people to the moon, knowing that we're not. supposed to return and that the other astronauts were dead.

I mean, they want to learn more about the moon. They want to be territorial against a species that's clearly stronger and more [01:38:00] advanced than us. So it really is quite cruel. It almost seems to me that that agent X is dead. More cruel than the aliens that, you know, supposedly made a lesson out of the astronauts.

Doug: Exactly. Uh, I agree with a hundred percent and, uh, something else too. Uh, not, not, I'm not really a conspiracy theorist or a tinfoil hat barn kind of guy, but, uh, But, um, you know, it always was kind of odd to me that, um, we stopped going to the moon so abruptly with Apollo 17. Um, and when you do the research on why, um, the, the reason that's given by the government is that we quit going to the moon because of budget cuts.

Um, and as I've mentioned, uh, when is the government cared about taxpayer dollars? When have they cared about wasting our money? You know, we're just an, we're just an ATM machine to them. So like Why would they be worried about the budget, you know, or wasting money on the space program, you know, it just doesn't make much sense [01:39:00] when there's so much more of the moon that could have been explored.

We don't know what kind of resources are on the moon, if there's valuable minerals, if there's stuff that we can use here on Earth. We don't know, you know, because we stopped going. So I've always thought that was kind of strange, you know, yeah, not to mention they want to explore it and we know they have a crazy amount of money and they're not afraid to get into more debt.

Amina: So I don't know if I believe the whole budget cut story either. Exactly. The only, the only, um, the only thing that'd be hard to do, which, uh, this is kind of, I'm kind of playing the devil's advocate here, um, in the sixties and seventies. Um, the technology to go to the moon required a massive rocket, the Saturn five.

Doug: Um, I think it was the most powerful rocket we've ever built. It was a massive machine and to launch one of those off, to send astronauts to the moon. If you're going to do that in secret, that'd be pretty hard to do because it's a colossal machine. There's got to be a lot of [01:40:00] people involved in, um, not only is.

But also just watching it, like, um, people are going to know, it's going to wake the neighbors when it goes off, you know, so, um, so that's the only thing that I kind of wonder about, like, if we went back secretly, how to pull it off, I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying it'd be the hardest, one of the hardest things, you know?

So, um, there was another program that kind of, kind of piggybacked off the Apollo program. It was called the Skylab Program, and the Skylab Program was basically a, uh, a lab in space. It was, uh, it was kind of a small space station that orbited the Earth. And, uh, astronauts went up there and they spent certain periods of time up there conducting experiments and they used the same exact Apollo A7L spacesuits that the astronauts on the moon used.

Um, so that's also interesting. Um, [01:41:00] I guess we could have, you know, talk, I'm just talking out loud here. Don't throwing darts at a dart board, but they could have said, Hey, we're going to Skylab and really went back to the moon, you know, so, um, That's also possible, I guess. But like I said, that's, that's, that's, that's kind of a conspiracy theory.

So, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of possibilities, honestly. And the truth is all these theories come about because we really don't know what's going on. And we do know that the government has hide, you know, hides things from us. They want to control this narrative that, oh, you know, these aliens, that's crazy talk, you know, and that's why movies come out and jokes and means about it.

Amina: But we know that they have an interest in studying this thing. So they're going to do it. They, they want to get ahead of the narrative. Before the public freaks out or anything, but, um, let's talk about what we do know. I mean, now things are coming out, they've already admitted to lying about aliens and we, we're starting to figure out some things that were kept about Neil Armstrong and the Apollo mission.

So when you started to research these things and kind of compare the [01:42:00] facts while putting together your book, um, what did you learn about what's going on? You know, these black budget programs, like. What else like makes you curious about what's really happening? Right. So, um, Neil Armstrong, as everybody knows, um, was the first astronaut on the moon.

Doug: Um, and actually I think July 21st of this month is July 21st is going to be the 55th, uh, moon landing anniversary. So, um, there's been some rumors or leaked, leaked footage, whatever you want to call it, um, that when he was on the moon, um, He saw a UFO and or aliens. Uh, it's not exactly clear exactly what he saw.

Uh, there was the channel that he was talking to us. Um, you know, when he landed on the moon, it was videotaped is on TV. He was talking, you know, you can hear him say, uh, once one small step for man, you know, and all that. Um, but then when he saw these. [01:43:00] UFOs or, or spaceships or whatever. Um, he switched to a private channel, which, uh, was what they called it a medical channel, like, so in other words, if he was having like a medical problem or low oxygen or something, he can switch this channel and communicate back with, uh, you know, Houston mission control in Houston privately.

So, um, so anyways, apparently he switches to his channel and says something like they're here and they're watching us referring to the aliens on the moon. So I don't know how exactly that leaked out. Um, I don't remember exactly where I read it at or saw it out, but I've seen it a couple of times. And, uh, I have another quote somewhere from him that was similar to that.

Um, and all of a sudden verified, you know, I can't say it's all true or accurate, but, um, this is just some of the stuff we've been seeing and reading. And it's, it's out there if you want to, if anybody wants to Google it, but, um, Yeah. So, um, so that was Neil Armstrong's thing. And then, um, [01:44:00] also I think it was Apollo 17.

I was going to look it up later or earlier today when I was getting ready to talk to you, but I just slipped my mind, but I think it was Apollo 17, which was the last man mission to the moon. Uh, allegedly, of course, um, they, when they, when they, so they, they, they got back in their lunar lander and they took off from the moon and they linked back up with the command module.

And when they did, so after they got back in the command module. It basically ejected the, um, or jettisoned the, uh, lunar lander off the command module and shot it back down into the moon, basically. And to see what would happen when it collided with the moon. So when it collided with the moon, it caused the moon to ring like a bell, which was indicating that it was hollow.

And, uh, some of the articles I'm reading about that are, are claiming that the moon rang like a bell for, uh, 30 minutes. So, um, I don't [01:45:00] really know what they mean by ring like a bell exactly because, um, you know, sound can't travel through space. So I don't know if they mean that they had like some kind of sensors that were able to pick up the vibration from the moon, or if they left sensors behind on the moon that could pick up the sound, or I'm not exactly sure how they knew that, but there are articles out there about that.

And then there's another story about, um, one of the Apollo missions that, um, orbited the, uh, orbited around the, uh, dark side of the moon, the back side of the moon. And when, so when astronauts go around the backside of the moon, they can't receive radio transmissions from earth because the moon blocks the radio waves out.

So they're, they're basically radio silent for however long it takes them to get around the moon on the backside. So while they're around on the backside, um, they started hearing strange music playing over their radio. Um, and it's not like a radio in the car. It's like a communication radio, of course we're talking about.

So where's the music coming from? Like [01:46:00] if they're supposed to be radio silent. Where's it coming from? You know, so, uh, all this stuff I've been finding out through my research, um, you know, and, and, and then I don't, I don't really know much about the black budget programs. I do exist. You know, there's, there's programs out there that, um, seem to just money and we don't know where the money goes.

Um, there's documents that are all blacked out. Like that's why they call them black budget programs. Cause you, uh, you go to research the, uh, You know, the, the paper trail and everything will be blacked out with a black marker, you know, it'll say the date on the paper and, you know, maybe the little bit of letterhead and then the rest of the whole document will be blacked out with like maybe a word or two at the bottom, you know, so, um, that's the government for that.

They won't tell us where that money goes. Um, but apparently, uh, you know, there's been a lot of movies made about the men in black, um, a lot of goofy movies. Um, but, um, A lot of people claim they're, they're real people, [01:47:00] um, which is kind of what Agent X is in my book. She's kind of, it kind of alludes to her being a part of that organization.

Um, but the Men in Black, um, so a lot of people have had like alien encounters or close encounters, alien craft. Um, a lot of them claim to a day or two later or even hours later, get a strange visit by two or three, Large, usually large men in black uniforms or black suits. Uh, and they never say who exactly they work for, but they show up and they, they ask strange questions.

And some of these people, um, that have these encounters, like they haven't even had a chance to tell anybody yet. Like it just happened. And they're so freaked out about it that they don't decide they decide not to tell anybody about it because people are going to think they're crazy. But then these men in black show up and how they know how they know that they had an encounter.

You know, like they didn't tell anybody yet. So, um, so that's, that's, that's kind of a weird consistency. I found what the men in [01:48:00] black is. Seem to just show up out of nowhere. Um, but they show up, they ask a lot of questions, like, what'd you see? You know, where were you? Like, did you touch it? Did they, you know, like, uh, did you tell anybody, um, just taking pictures, like that kind of stuff.

And then some people even say that, uh, the men in black threatened them. Like, you know, don't tell anybody about this. You know, if you care about your family or you care about yourself or you care about not losing your job, uh, you won't tell anybody and then they just leave as, As soon as like, you know, just like they came, they, they left just without a trace, you know, so, um, so yeah, that's pretty, pretty interesting, um, but I'm not really into aliens or conspiracy theories or nothing.

I just, all this research I've done is, um, just based off of the dreams. It's not stuff that I've been into for, you know, my whole life. It's just, it's just basically in reference to all the dreams and experiences I've had, um, trying to get some background information on it. Yeah, definitely. Um, that's interesting.

Amina: And [01:49:00] yeah, I can imagine it's a scary experience. I mean, there's so much mystery behind these men in black government type characters. Um, and it's interesting how some of these, you know, things you're, you're researching, you know, line up with things that you talk about in your story. Um, About how these, for example, these aliens being so advanced that they can control our primitive technology and our radio transmissions.

Um, I, I mean, that makes sense to me. If they're really capable of doing these types of things, they, you know, our technology probably is like so, um, ancient and primitive to them, but, um, Yeah, the moon being having these big craters and actually being hollow is really interesting to me, um, which you also talk about in your story, um, how they emerge from these holes in the, in the moon.

Um, so, yeah, I think that's really cool. And another element that I wanted to mention that really stood out to me was. In the book, you talk about this taxidermy metaphor, like these aliens, you [01:50:00] know, they pin up these human bodies with a display, you know, little badge and everything, like they're so proud of this hunt they just, this prey they just killed and whatnot.

Um, and it sounds so terrible and gruesome, um, but then I'm like, we do that to deers and, you know, whatever hunters do, they put it up on, above their mantle. So, it's quite funny when you think about it that way. It's like normal to us, but when it, when we're the victims of it, it's, uh, so gruesome, um. So, yeah, I don't know.

What do you think about that? Do you think that maybe it's just normal to aliens to, to treat us that way? And do you think there are aliens that maybe believe in us a little bit more and support us? Do you think that's a possibility? Uh, it's definitely possible. Um, you know, some people say that there's good aliens and bad aliens, bad, excuse me, bad aliens.

Doug: Um, like, I guess like people, you know, um, You know, sometimes there's good people, sometimes there's bad people, um, so I, I [01:51:00] guess maybe, uh, you know, I don't, I don't know if it's a, if it's an advanced civilization thing, civilization thing, um, like we're supposed to, human beings are supposed to be the most intelligent known species on this planet, but yet we've conducted so many experiments with animals, you know, in the name of science, you know, some of them were very cruel experiments.

You know, uh, we've killed billions of animals and our experiments, you know, uh, just trying to figure out, you know, medical technology and all that stuff. Um, and so what, uh, the question is, would a more advanced species than us do the same thing because they're more advanced than us and they can, you know, they have the power to do so.

Um, you know, it's possible. That's scary, but it's possible. Um, but then on the other end of the spectrum, I've also heard that, you And this, this is again, like, [01:52:00] research I've done, um, not saying any of this is true, but I'm just saying this is what I've kind of read about and seen, um, some people claim that they've been abducted and before they were abducted they were having extreme medical problems, like cancer and, uh, Other things.

And after I got abducted, miraculously, the cancer was gone, which was verified by a doctor afterwards. Like I think one guy said he had like tuberculosis or lung cancer or something. And, uh, the, the, the scan at his doctor showed nothing but black in his lungs. And he was, you know, And then he got abducted and then he came back and he wasn't coughing anymore, didn't have any problems.

So he went to the doctor and the doctor did another scan on him and found his lungs were perfectly clear. So, uh, and I've heard a lot of stories like that, you know, so it could probably go both ways. You know, and it goes back to the thing, like, you know, some people, there's [01:53:00] different types of aliens, you know, um, and some are good and some are bad.

So, um, I don't have the answers and I don't think anybody really does, but, um, but it's interesting to think about. Yeah, definitely. I mean, your story made me think about a lot, honestly. And, you know, I respect you for not being biased. You know, you're not one way or the other with any of these theories.

Amina: You're just kind of like, hey, this is my dream. This is what happened to me. This is what I've learned. Do what you want with this information. And I think that's really cool. And just going back to the book a little bit, I, I love how it just flowed out of you. You just wrote this book up so quickly and I really want everybody to read it.

It's such a good read. It took me, I mean, I was glued to it, so it took me like an hour or so to read. Um, so it's not too long or anything. Um, but how are you feeling now that you put it out there? Do you feel like it represents your dream and do you feel like you're doing a good job at honoring the story?

Doug: Yeah, I think it's good. Um, I feel better. Um, [01:54:00] I was, I still kind of am, but I was very consumed by this whole thing. Um, it took up a lot of my thought. I was getting distracted at work and, uh, just getting distracted in general. I was just constantly thinking about this and I still do. Um, and so like getting feedback from people and even if it's negative feedback, just any kind of feedback, you know, um, as always good.

I like to hear people's thoughts and theories was one lady had an interesting theory that I was the shadow creature. Like I was actually at the. Alien or shadow creature in the dream. Like I was actually the, I don't know what he called an antagonist or something, you know, the, the villain basically. Um, so yeah, so that was an interesting theory.

I never thought about like, what if I was the, the bad guy in the dream, you know? Um, so yeah, it's, it's kind of interesting to get the feedback and, uh, it's good. It helps me out, try to put some of the clues together, you know, cause, cause I don't have the answers, obviously I'm just kind of the [01:55:00] messenger.

So like Um, maybe somebody out there knows more about this than I do. Um, you know, when they reach out to me and tell me what they think, it helps me out a lot and it makes me see things from a different perspective, or sometimes it makes me research something that I didn't think about before. So yeah, it's all, it's all been pretty positive.

Amina: Yeah, that's good. Um, I mean, you're, you're putting your story out there and people can, you know, do their own research regarding what, what curiosities they get from it. Um, and is there anything else that you're still curious about with these dreams, anything else that you still want to learn or that's still developing for you?

Doug: Um, yeah, I'd like to, you know, like I said, like I still, I still feel like I'm missing some of the puzzle pieces. Like, um, like, you know, even though I wrote the dream or even I wrote the story and it flowed out of me, like. Um, you know, I still haven't had some of the elements of the story. I haven't had a dream yet.

So [01:56:00] like, um, you know, I would like to have those, those dreams, um, believe it or not, even though they're nightmares, I'd still like to have them just so I could like get some closure, um, and see what may have happened. Um, and, uh, I'd like to know like what, obviously I'd like to know what these beings in the, obviously I know what the astronauts are, but.

I'd like to know what these shadows and beings were in the dreams. Um, you know what they represent or what they are. Um, you know, I'd really like to know their intentions. Obviously there were bad intentions, but. Why were their intentions bad? Like what caused them to do these evil things? Um, or maybe they don't see it as evil.

Maybe they see us as evil, you know? Um, so that, and that's something else I kind of mentioned in the story. Um, there's a quote in there when the alien says telepathically and he tells why he's about to do what he's doing. Um, I won't give it away, but you know, it, it, it kind of aligns with what I'm trying to say here.

Um, [01:57:00] but. Yeah, I have so many questions still, you know, like who are these beings? What were their intentions? Um, did this really happen? Was it part of the Apollo program? Um, was it Skylab? Cause like I said, Skylab was pretty similar to the Apollo program as far as the suits and the timeframe. Um, so yeah, I have a lot of questions still.

Amina: Yeah, well, if any more dreams pop up that unravel any more clues, you have to keep me posted because I'm invested in the story now. I definitely will. Yeah. Wow. Well, this has been so good and, and just so juicy with details. Is there anything that we haven't covered? I'm really going to encourage people to read the book for themselves.

So all the little details, you know, they can read and then come back to this episode, but is there any, any, uh, Any big parts that you still wanted to get off your chest that we didn't cover? Um, not really, uh, just, you know, if anybody's curious about the book, um, It's only like 13, 000 words, [01:58:00] um, It's actually more of a short story than a book.

Doug: It's, I call it a book because it's divided into chapters. And, uh, so it is a quick read if you're interested, um, But, uh, yeah, uh, not, not a whole lot else, you know, just, um, Yeah, I think that's about it. Cool. I love that. And I just want to end off with this quote that you said in, in your email when we were kind of going over the questions and I really love it.

Amina: I think it encompasses this whole, this whole thing really well. Um, and you know, your, your story, it's a, like you said, quote unquote fictional story, but you said in your email, it's like giving medicine to a toddler. If you give them the raw medicine, they won't take it. But if you mix it with honey, they'll love it without realizing it's actually medicine.

And I think that's so applicable here. That's such a good metaphor because we're slipping people a little bit of truth here, and they can kind of uncover the truth. However, you know, however, works for them. Exactly. You know, and even even if this didn't [01:59:00] happen, like, if it's just my imagination, um, the government It doesn't change the fact that the government is still very corrupt.

Doug: There's still been a lot of black budget programs. And, um, I'm reading Bob Lazar's book right now. Um, he was a physicist that worked, um, for the government at Area 51 and S4. And ironically, the book is called dreamland. And, uh, and he was basically the, the original whistleblower, um, that came out and said, Hey, there's the government's experimenting with alien craft at Mary 51 and S four.

Um, I also highly recommend, you know, people who are interested in the subject tech, check that book out, but. It's, it's, it's basically about what I'm talking about here is, you know, the government tries to hide stuff from us and, um, there's stuff going on. They, they lie to us about that. They say that there's not this technology doesn't exist, but clearly it does.

You know, we just had these, uh, classified. Uh, well not classified, but the government basically came out with these congressional hearings, uh, you know, for [02:00:00] over the past two years saying that, you know, yeah, you know, UFOs are real, we don't know what they are, um, you know, they had pilots F 18 pilots testified in these congressional hearings and all kinds of different people working for the government, um, testified.

And so, yeah, even if, even if Dustin wasn't a real astronaut, none of this stuff happened, um, still, it's still based on true things that have happened in the government, because like, like I said, they lied to us all the time and. They, they, they treat people like they're expendable. So, yeah. Um, yeah, I think it's, I think it's pretty accurate.

So, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a good representation, um, even if it's fictional of just things that are going on and we already know we're not the only beings in the universe. So that's no secret for sure. But yeah, wow. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. This has been really great. Um, it's been fun following along with your [02:01:00] story and I'm excited to see how it continues to unfold.

Amina: Um, I'll be looking out for the next book. Okay. Well, thank you very much. And, uh, I enjoyed being on your show. Thanks. So I'm going to just end the recording really quick and make sure it was.