EP81: Conversations in the Dream World

Peter M, AKA Flying Dreamhorse is an experienced lucid dreamer looking to deepen his practice.  He shares his journey from his first fear-based lucid dream as a teenager to his recent attempts to improve lucidity through various methods, like listening to podcasts, reading books by experts, practicing different techniques, and keeping a dream journal. He describes some of his memorable lucid dreams, including visits to Mars, interactions with dream characters, and exploring the potential of visitation dreams with deceased relatives.

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Transcript

Peter Manning
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Amina: [00:00:00] Yeah, for sure. Well, welcome. It's, it's really just easy, really just a conversation between two people who love talking about dreams. 

Peter: Yeah. Yeah, that's it. 

Amina: So you're a lucid dreamer, right? You, I think we found each other on one of the Facebook groups. 

Peter: That's right. So, um, I've been trying to try different methods to, um, increase my lucid dreaming.

And of course, Facebook lucid dreaming page is one of those. And then I saw your interaction with someone on there and you said you had a podcast and I'm always looking for new podcasts. And I, um, I don't know how I've missed you. Cause I've found. I think every other podcast known to man, um, except yours.

So I'm so glad I found out because listening to it, it's, it's so much of what I'm looking for, um, to help me get lucid, give me ideas and also to, um, yeah, just to, to find [00:01:00] people who have similar experiences and similar ideas. And, and particularly around stuff like the spirituality of. I know there's the blurry line of what's good, what's bad, not what's bad, but what's something I've not experienced and I'm open to.

And then something I go, well, we've just taken a left turn at Albuquerque there and you've dropped off the end of the world and I'm not with you anymore. So your podcast sounded like it was really something that. I could stay with the whole time. I'm, uh, every time I'm sort of going, Oh, we're heading in that direction.

It was the same thoughts that I have kind of popped up. So that was, I found it really easy listening. And I only started listening to your podcast from last week. So I'm still working my way through all the episodes. 

Amina: Awesome. That makes me so happy that you've been enjoying it and that you reached out.

Um, I'm excited to hear about some of your personal experiences. I mean, that's why I started it really is just to, cause I love talking about this and learning from [00:02:00] people and, you know, it's just been kind of growing into this big thing from there. Um, have you, well, first let me ask you this, how did you find out about lucid dreaming and have you had one before, or is this just like a new, completely new for you?

Peter: Yeah, so I've realized that I've had lucid dreams before, before I knew what they were. Um, as probably a teenager was the first one. I remember it was a fear based dream. And, um, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the film American Werewolf in London. Um, it's, it's kind of a horror, but it was kind of put as a, as a, a comedy, but I saw it as a 13 year old and it scared the living daylight out of me and gave me this.

Deep fear of werewolves. And so my dreams continue to have fear of dark places and werewolves for quite a long time. And this one [00:03:00] dream I remembered, I think I was about 15 years old and the where I went, I was walking along the street that I know, and I went, Ooh, I wonder if the werewolves going to come.

And sure enough, it did. Then something happened, and I just went, I'm sick of this, this is, this is really something that is happening all the time, and I'm not enjoying it, I'm going to stand up to the werewolf, and I did, but in doing that, I realized I was dreaming, and then I remember saying that to someone, I had a dream last night, And I knew I was dreaming.

Like I didn't even know that you could do this. So this, this would have been the year that this happened would have been about 1985. years old now. Um, 1985. So lucid dreaming wasn't really on anyone's radar and dreaming in general, as we know, wasn't really talked about. So I remember having a lucid dream then, and that was just like spontaneous for [00:04:00] sure.

Um, I think I'd had a couple of others and continued to say to people, I dreamt a dream and they go, Oh yeah, and they're just not interested. And you know, that's the end of the conversation. Um, something you said on one of your podcasts in 2020, um, that was when I started looking into psychology. Podcasts in general, like I just had a sudden switch in the way I go about my general days at work, which is I'm kind of just doing menial tasks, um, and I, I wanted to see what I might be able to do in the future towards psychology, counseling, just stuff that doesn't involve me physically working, lifting things all day.

So I started listening to podcasts. So I started listening to psychology podcast, um, Scott Berry Kaufman. Liam, uh, the fit mind podcast, but all of their guests got into all of these really interesting topics. And one of the topics on Liam's podcast was Charlie Morley. Um, and he was [00:05:00] talking about lucid dreaming and that really got, I went, yeah, I've done, I've experienced this.

And I, maybe I knew a little bit about it, but I certainly wasn't interested it and I wasn't practicing anything to try, um, to become a lucid dreamer. So anyway, I, I kind of devoured all of Charlie's books and I really liked it and I started practicing, um, by like wake, wake back to bed, um, while techniques, whatever I could.

work out how to do from, from the reading I'd done. Um, but I, I lost interest straight away because I had interrupted my sleep and the sleep was really important to me and I wasn't getting many results. So I kind of just put it on the back burner, but then I continued to listen to these podcasts and it came up again and, and other things about spirituality, which I'm, you know, I'm interested in as well.

Um, and I went, all right, I'm going to give this another go and I'm going to try not to. [00:06:00] Make it so hard and maybe do it when I wake up naturally rather than setting alarms at 3 a. m. in the morning 3 a. m. so I did that and then I started to get some results and Yeah, I I became more and more interested as I got better results.

I can continue on if you want, but did you wanna Is, uh, yeah, should I continue on or? 

Amina: Yeah, go ahead. I'll listen to everything you have to say and I'm sure I'll have a lot of questions. So feel free to just tell me whatever, you know, whatever's on your heart. 

Peter: Sure. Okay, so, um, that was, that was the beginning of 2022 when I first tried, like, I think I read Charlie's book, and he also referred referred to Robert Wagner as well.

So I, I read as many books as I could find from these experts and these people have these amazing experiences over a long period of time. And yeah, I just got more and [00:07:00] more motivated to. to see this stuff that they were talking about. And, um, so I, as I say, I started in at the beginning of 2022 and then lost my way a bit, but revisited the idea back in the middle of 2022.

So like June in 2022. And so June was that month I had one lucid dream. Um, and then in July, I had two, then in August I had four, and by October I'd had seven in the one month, and then I was having like two in one night sometimes, and then, you know, three out of four days, things like that. And that's kind of been the limit I've got to.

Well, not unfortunately, but you know, I obviously just want to, to experience lucid dreaming as much as I can, but I'd kind of, that seems to be my limit, and it comes in, in, in. in waves, you know, kind of three out of [00:08:00] four nights and then I might have nothing for two weeks. But my average is, is like one every 10 days over the past 18 months.

So since, since October, 2023, um, it's been pretty steady around four dreams a month, which I'm pretty happy with. And the quality, you know, I'm always trying to improve that by listening to all the reviewers. Um, And then in, in 2023, an interesting thing happened. We went to Japan, my partner and I went to Japan for the month of May.

And sometimes. As I think most lucid dreamers would know that when you're in a strange environment, that can actually, you've got interrupted sleep or interrupted patterns that can be helpful. So I had kind of big expectations when I went to Japan of having lucid dreams, but I didn't have one for a whole month.

And I went, Oh no, you know, because of my energy and mental focus was on touring. And I was kind of thinking about it a bit at night, but I [00:09:00] wasn't really, I was doing some reality checks and things like that, but I wasn't really. Uh, um, fully immersed in, in my practice. So when I got back from Japan, I went, I hope I haven't kind of lost the ability to dream and probably about a week later, I had another lucid dream so that that gave me just some reassurance.

And it's, it's silly, I know, because. Um, I've, I've, before I'd even experienced the dreams not coming, I knew that people, uh, had sort of waves of, of ability to dream or not. And um, you know, some people who had been regular dreamers had then gone months without one. So it was kind of a bit irrational. Kind of a little bit irrational for me to, to worry that this ability had gone, but it was also quite reassuring when I did manage to have another dream.

Um, and yeah, since then it's been pretty steady. Um, and I'm, [00:10:00] I am also trying to learn Japanese and I'm finding the more, I seem to have a limited amount of attention, attention. So if I'm studying really hard on learning Japanese, um, I find, you know, It's, it's hard to simultaneously keep my attention on my, on my dream practice, um, which is fine and at the moment I'm just balancing both like I got really stuck into the Japanese and, and kind of went three weeks without a dream and went, I'm not really happy with this.

I want to go back to, to more focus on dreaming. So, and what I do to switch my focus back on is listen to all of the audio books. Robert Wagoner, Charlie Morley, Claire Johnson, and now I found your podcast. Podcasts are great too, because It's just that energy of the, the presenter and the sharing of the experience of people who have these just amazing dreams and all the things that they can do in the dreams.

Um, I find that sometimes if, if their story is really [00:11:00] interesting, it comes into my dream. Um, and just one quick example of that is Robert Wagoner. He was, his friend Ed Kellogg, um, he was trying to meet Ed in the dream, and he, and he had done that, but one of the things he was doing was a little mantra that he created for himself, which was, Making Chi to Find Ed, which is, you know, as he described, a silly little chant.

Um, but just recently, in one of my most recent dreams, I found myself chanting a similar chant, finding, uh, Making Chi to Find Ed, and I don't know Ed, but that, that chant came through. And that's like, literally from something that I've heard, um, about lucid dreaming. So I really like it when something that I've read literally comes into my dream and particularly into a lucid dream.

Um, you know, I find that particularly motivating. I feel like, you know, it's all coming [00:12:00] together and what I, and it gives me the confidence that what I'm looking at and listening to in my waking reality. It can really come into my dreams, particularly if I, if I, if I give it attention and when I get excited about it.

That helps me give it my more attention and more time. So, um, and, and just a summary of like the type of thing. So probably in my lucid dreams up to the end of 2023, I felt like I was in my quality of lucidity was improving and I was having kind of longish dreams with good dream recall. And not so much, I've never really been able to decide what I'm going to find in the dreams, but um, just the recall of how to go about holding my lucidity was kind of good.

And that, that kind of has dropped off a bit, but that's okay because I'm, I feel like I'm, the other area [00:13:00] that's improved is the ability to bring in concepts, even though I'm not sort of doing, having long dreams at the moment. I can go right tonight, I'm going to go to this place and that place. And I've actually been able to do that, um, in a dream.

And so when I woke up, I was kind of elated. I'm kind of, because I'm going, that's the first time that I've set the intention, you know, in waking reality to go to this place and that place. And it's actually happened. Um, and, And yeah, so that's, that's kind of a bit of a summary. 

Amina: That's awesome. That's a really good journey.

Um, and if it's any motivation to you, it, you had a lucid dream as a teenager. So you can say you're a natural and you should say that you're a natural, you know, um, and it's not, it's an ability that I always think about. Tell people like it's a learnable skill, you know, like a muscle that you work out.

And the more you use it, the, the stronger it gets, you know, and even if you go a little bit without a [00:14:00] dream or whatever, it's still like in you and you always bring yourself back, you know, um, and there's always ways to just incorporate it into your life even. So that's really cool. Um, do you keep a dream journal or what, like, what is your kind of natural practice like?

Peter: Yeah, I, I do keep a dream journal and like everything with me, it fluctuates a lot. So I've got like literally a notebook in front of me that was pretty much a year full of dreams. And I mean, because unfortunately I'm a bit of a messy handwriter, but, um, I try to just keep dot points to at least, like, to kind of do it in sweeps.

So, like, when I wake up, I, I write down something or record something straight away to get as much. as many clues to feed me back into the dream as possible. And then, you know, based on time and recall and just general motivation, I try and then pan it out, expand on the [00:15:00] dream. And, and then I, I'll, so yeah, sometimes it's just a few dot points, but pretty much through 20, 22, like, it looks like there's about a page of dot points per dream, something like that.

And then, yeah, I just make sure I write it on something and then I collate things and it's a bit of a mess, so. But I've got pages for most of the way through. Um, look, I'm going to say 85% of the days I'll record something. Um, and I just, I, I, I, I think I know how important it is to keep doing this, to, to really, you know, keep your lucidity tank full.

Um, so I try and if I start to feel like I'm slacking off, I try to make just an effort to go out. Look, this is a long term. thing, even if you don't feel like doing it, just write something or record something. So yeah, I do, so I keep a dream diary and I made this thing, [00:16:00] it's just a piece of wood and I want to, I kind of got the idea from some sort of indigenous, I like, I try and bring ideas from things that are kind of related but not, not directly related into it, such as like memory palaces, um, totem poles, um, Talismans, things like that.

But so I've made this piece of wood. So every time I have a lucid dream, a reward for me is to just write the date on this piece of wood. So like, and so I've got, it's, it's as big as my hand. Um, and it's just got dates on it. So like, I can just read off, you know, November 3rd, 14th, 20th, 24th, 6th, et cetera, right through to current day.

So that piece of wood is full. So. The thing about that though is that it's a physical thing for me to touch, and I'm trying to like, keep it as an, as an energetic piece as well, so that when I touch it, that was the idea. [00:17:00] Um, it hasn't really come through into my dreams, like I never dream about this piece of wood that all my lucid dreams are recorded on, but that was what I was hoping for.

But I'm just open to experiment for anything. Dream journals is like a staple, but I try and create these other things as well. So my piece of wood is kind of important to me. Having said that, I'm deciding whether to, whether or not to burn it as a symbolic thing that might appear in my dream of me burning my, um, you know, my, my, I'm going to call it a totem.

I don't know if it is a totem, but it's, it's a piece of wood with, with a record of all my dreams on it. Um, so yeah, that I do that. I've got some, um, Some dream, some Remy, um, lead dream goggles. They're just, they're just timer based. They don't, they don't detect rapid eye movement or anything like that, but you can just set timers and, um, [00:18:00] patterns of flashing light.

So you wear it as a mask and as I'm sure you know about all this stuff, I'm just telling you what I've got. So it's a mask. And, um, that was really good. I got it. The first night I got it was one of the nights I had two lucid dreams in one night, which is fairly, fairly rare for me. But since then, it hasn't really worked.

So, um, but every now and then I go back and put the mask on. So it just flashes lights in your eyes. And sometimes, you know, you'll have dreams of, you know, Of car lights, and then when you dream of car lights, hopefully that's a dream sign for you to realize that you're dreaming, um, things like that. Uh, so yeah, I, I just try everything, um, and yeah, the, the energy I put into that kind of fluctuates, but.

Look, overall, I'm pretty consistent. Um, one thing I did actually think about the other day at the start, I was doing lots of hand flips, um, and they were really reliable and then I started listening to [00:19:00] everyone's thoughts on hand flips and I'd kind of got influenced by. A little bit of, oh yeah, they're not always reliable.

And then I kind of just fell out of the habit of doing that, which is a shame because, um, I think when I used to do the hand flips, it would, it would give me that sudden lucidity because I look at my hands and I flip it and I go, oh my goodness, it's a dream. Um, whereas now lately the dream. The lucidity comes more from just, oh, what am I doing?

Oh, this is unusual. Oh, this is a dream. It's, it's seems to be much more of a slower transition into knowing that it's a dream compared to what I used to get at the start. So anyway, I've started doing more, um, reality checks and things like that. Um, and I'm also, one of the things that I try and do. Uh, to increase lucidity is put myself in, in, in uncomfortable situations, like contacting people who don't know such as you, even though you're really [00:20:00] warm and welcoming, it's still the challenge of telling someone, I mean, you, you're, you're a dreamer, but this is probably more applies to, um, friends of mine, who I'm going, I'm not sure what they're going to think.

When I tell them about this stuff that I do, because it's just not mainstream, are they going to think I'm weird? So I've made a point where I think it's safe, you know, emotionally safe to tell people that I do this stuff. And I've had such a good response. Um, and I found some really good people, some people who are into shamanic drumming.

Um, and I, I actually, where I get my coffee every day, Um, just one of the baristas, I just chatted to her, say hello, you know, I'd been doing that for six months. One day she walked past me in a, in a complete trance and didn't even see me. I said, Oh, hi, and she goes, Oh, hi, sorry. I was just in another world. I said, Yeah, don't worry about that.

That's how I walk around all the time at work when I'm listening to my podcasts. [00:21:00] And this was just all completely random. And she goes, Oh, what do you listen to? And I said, Oh, you wouldn't be interested. It's just weird stuff. And. And she said, like, what? And I said, oh, psychology and this and that. And, oh, lucid dreaming.

She goes, lucid dreaming? I went, yeah. She goes, I'm, I'm a natural lucid dreamer. I dream every night. And that was like, just such a exciting moment. So we, you know, talked about that for quite a long time. And it was interesting to, for natural dreamers, how like, she was almost like, it was so natural for her that.

She never said an intention to have it and she, you know, she kind of didn't want it all the time, which I'm understanding when the more I listen to people who are natural lucid dreamers, you know, sometimes they just want a normal dream as well. But anyway, the point of all of that is, it's been really good to try and put myself out there a bit, and I've [00:22:00] had a really good response and found some people who I never would have found.

Um, but I just, you know, it just doesn't come up in conversation. So 

Amina: yeah, 

Peter: that's been really good. 

Amina: Yeah. You know, I love that you're on this journey and we're in this together because that's why I'm doing this really is to normalize dream sharing and to get people comfortable talking about these things.

So thank you for putting yourself out there. And I know I have a couple Australian friends and they all tell me that it's so new and you know, people don't really accept it over there. I mean, has that been your experience? 

Peter: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, people are open to it, but they, they just do, they just don't take, like, they don't even try and work out whether they've had a lucid dream.

And then when you're telling about them, about the benefits and what you experienced and, and how, you know, it's enjoyable. Yeah. People will tend to just go, Oh yeah, but you've got to do this. And [00:23:00] like, I think even in Charlie Moly's book, like he said, someone said, Oh, does this mean you've got to do hand flips all day?

And I'm going, Well, yeah, surely, like, is that, is that really a big deal? Right, it's worth it. Yeah, I struggle to To be on the same page of how hard I'm just doing the finger quite thing it is to, to do all this stuff when I just go, well, at any time you can stop. And you know, if you don't want to do it, you don't do it.

But if you do do it and you get into anyway, it's, it's, it's kind of preaching to the converted, isn't it? But, um, yeah, it's really hard to find people who you go up to and you go, Oh, did this like, Oh yeah. Tell me more about that. That's going to be, that sounds fantastic. They kind of go, Oh yeah, yeah. Right.

You know, and. Of course, some people will ask a bit more politely about it, but eventually I still feel that, yeah, that conversation doesn't continue. And for whatever reason, they don't want to take it up. Um, which is a shame, but I, and that's one of the things like, um, [00:24:00] I think I picked up even, because when I contacted you initially, I'd only listened to one or two of your episodes.

So as I'm devouring all of that stuff of yours now, um, I'm picking up that you are, what your kind of mission is just to really get the conversation happening and I'm going, yeah, that's, that's, that just gives me so much more, um, motivation and inspiration to like, yeah, I'm not going to be so shy about it.

I mean, I wasn't shy about it anyway, but it's, it's just, it's nice to know that other people feel the same need to just get it out there cause it's good. And yeah, that makes me feel good. 

Amina: Yeah. I love that. That inspires me as well. Um, do you have any of like your favorite lucid dreams that you would feel comfortable sharing?

I'd like to know like some of the things you do in your lucidity. 

Peter: Yeah, yeah, sure. And they're all pretty short, so it'll just be little [00:25:00] snapshots of kind of unrelated stuff, nothing, nothing particularly amazing as a story. But, um, I think because I've been, you know, kind of often refer back to Charlie Morley and Robert Wagoner, because I've listened to their stuff so much.

Um, I find myself trying to do the experiments that they've talked about, even though I'm a newbie. Like, I consider myself really new. And, um. About, I'm really happy to, so I, I set, I actually sometimes set intentions to do some of the specific things like run through walls, um, while flying, but travel through space and intend myself to other places instead of, um, you know, feeling the need to travel or have wings or, or do any of that.

And happily my mindset. Gets me there. Um, and when, when I intend to get there and I go, I didn't need to have all of the earthbound problems of getting to Mars. So, uh, [00:26:00] maybe like three of the three in three separate dreams. I've been to Mars. Um, and so, and this is interesting because it's, it's like. It could be Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Pluto, but it's always Mars, and I think that's because, you know, I'm still a little bit stuck on the fact that Mars is close, so that's where I'm going to go.

But realizing that I always go to Mars, I did set an intention to get to Saturn and Jupiter. I mean, it still can be somewhere much further away. It doesn't have to be the next planet along or, or relatively close. But anyway, that's, I think that's a mindset thing with me. But anyway, the three trips to Mars, um, so maybe, maybe I'll just try and recall as much of the, the first dream that I had, which, uh, where I went to Mars.

So one of my dream triggers is flying in a commercial aircraft. I've had a long term fear of flying, which I've pretty much overcome now. Um, but it's, it's a big [00:27:00] thing. Like it's, it's not just like a bus trip for me. I've aeroplane. So my dream trigger. Um, and this, this is, this is probably something that I find really interesting is before I started lucid dreaming, I had recurring dreams about getting on an aircraft and we take off and it's just not gaining height.

It's not going to crash, but it's just not getting high. Like I'm going along roads, I'm looking out the window and I can see, um, telephone poles and electricity wires and stuff like that. And I'm going. Why, why are we so low? And then it's not till I wake up, I'll go, Oh, that was a dream. So in, in the lucid dreaming practice, I've gone, all right, that's definitely a dream trigger.

So now when I generally, when I get on an aircraft that were in a dream that will, um, actually trigger lucidity. So what, so back to the, the trip to Mars. So [00:28:00] I'm, I'm on a plane and I look over to my left and it's, it's kind of a dark, It's a dark night and I'm flying, all of a sudden flying in an aeroplane, I look over and I see the pilot and he's just kind of a shadow and that's fine, but I look out and I see the lights and I go, this is a dream, it just hits me, I don't even need to do any checks and I just go, this, this is a dream and I'm lucid.

So then I look around the cabin and, and of course, Charlie Morley is always talking about his dream characters that he has really good interactions with. So I look around the cabin and I go. Who here is a dream character? And everyone puts their hand up, kind of really, with excitement. And then, on waking, I'll go, Well, that was a really silly question, because they're all dream characters, what type of dream character might be more important?

But anyway, they all put their hand up, because they were all, by definition, dream characters. So anyway, The next thing I remember was I said, well, I'm going to go to [00:29:00] Mars. So does anyone want to come with me? And so I, it goes a bit fuzzy for a bit, but the next thing I've got like three or four people and we all go to Mars.

Um, so I get there and probably not that surprising Mars actually has concrete. Uh, water, drainways, buses, and so we're traveling around on a bus, um, doing this and that, and nothing spectacular happens except, I think I was a little bit underwhelmed by what Mars was like in my dream, because I was expecting, well I wasn't, obviously I was expecting something from Earth, literally, but I was hoping for something a bit more Mars like.

So anyway, I spent a bit of time on Mars in the bus with these dream characters. But then an interesting thing happened was, I decided I needed to wake up because I wanted to write this stuff down. I really sort of realistic feeling to interact with the dream characters and tell them [00:30:00] that I'm going now, kind of with a certain sadness, because like I was leaving them behind and then I said, But don't worry, you guys will all wake up in your bed just like I am, and that was the dream, and then I did wake up, but it was, reflecting on that, I went, how bizarre that I was lucid, and I guess this is like levels of lucidity.

I was aware enough to know that I was on Mars in a bus full of dream characters, but I still felt the need to comfort them and tell them that they were going to wake up in their own bed and not to worry. And um, that, that was an interesting thing in that dream. Um, yeah. So that, that was my lucid dream to Mars.

One of my longer ones. That's 

Amina: fabulous. Yeah. Give yourself some credit. I don't think you're a mediocre at all. I think you're, you're getting quite good at this whole lucid dreaming thing. And I love that you're so compassionate with your dream characters. It's a really good practice to have, you know? [00:31:00] Um, yeah.

Do you believe that, like, or like, do you have any ideas on if dream characters are just products of our subconscious or could they be other dreamers or other beings and entities that exist out in the universe? 

Peter: Yeah, I'm, I'm completely open to all of that because I've, my experience of them is like, so starting back to my original beliefs from when I was small, like I'm not religious, I generally don't believe that sort of stuff.

But, um, again. I refer back to Charlie Morley in his book, he went through most of this stuff is, is, you know, processing of day material, but there's the 1%, which you can't explain. And, and I really like that. I love that little opening because I want that opening. I want to explore that opening. And even, and, um, but I want to do it.

For myself, rather than just, you know, there's so many people with so many opinions about how it all works, but I'm, I'm just so curious to, [00:32:00] to find out for myself. But the good thing is that I'm finding these dream characters are mysterious people, um, and they behave in ways as everyone says that. You just can't predict and yeah, sure, it could be your subconscious just throwing stuff up, but, um, like, it's just so unexpected, and so I, I think, I think that most of the time it's probably reflections of parts of myself.

I'm definitely open and there's a couple of experiences that are popping up in my head too, that I go, I don't know what that is, I have no idea where that come from, and it's not even really likely that it's come from something that's happened to me that I'm aware of anyway. Um, and. Yeah, so, so I'm looking for those little openings, um, another lucid dream and, and this is, this is kind of interesting in a, in a couple of different ways, but the reaction of the dream character was something that I really remember.

So, um, it started, [00:33:00] so I did a trip, I did a half marathon, um, interstate, so I, I'd taken a plane flight with my partner, we did the run. And. I tried to push as hard as I can for the half marathon and I was completely exhausted. And that night I just, I didn't sleep well at all. And I basically had a fever. I was, I was just feeling shocking.

Cause I just, I think I pushed myself a little bit too hard. Um, and, I was still, because I was not feeling great and half awake and half asleep, I was still thinking of my dreaming and hoping to have a dream. I didn't have a dream, but the next night I kind of had the REM rebound thing. So I had a good sleep and I had this really amazing lucid dream.

So at this time I'm, I'm in New South Wales, in Australia, near Sydney, and I currently live in Melbourne. Um, But I knew in the dream that I was on holidays. So in the dream, I'm [00:34:00] talking to someone who's at work and he's saying, all right, can you get the, he's got a clipboard, he's holding a clipboard, he's got a beard and he looks like someone from a previous workplace and he's holding a clipboard and he's looking at me and he's going, okay, so can you get this stuff done by Friday?

And I'm looking at him, I'm going, but you're in Melbourne and I'm on holidays in Sydney. And I'm just staring at him and, and this like, the hairs on the back of my neck are standing up as I'm looking at him because, because it feels so real. But I'm just starting to flip into realizing that it's a dream.

And because, because I'm just looking square, at him square in the eyes and he's got this clipboard and it's a kind of earnest conversation. And I go, hang on. I'm talking to you now. You're in Melbourne. I'm on holidays in New South Wales. This is a lucid dream, and I, and I, I did that thing where, like, I kind of dumped the information on the dream character, and his face, I still remember his face, he was looking at me, [00:35:00] and he just kind of, Went from a dead manic stare straight ahead, just kind of tilted his head down to the side and looked at his clipboard, and that was, that was kind of the end of the interaction, but I just remember the way he moved made me go, that, that, that was, there was just a spookiness in it, or a unknownness in the way he reacted, as if he'd been Um, you know, that, that sort of thing.

And I've, and I've experienced that a lot with dream characters that if I get too excited, uh, and by, and, and I try now not to announce this is a dream. I try to ask them, do you know this is a dream? Or do you think this is a dream? Which is kind of funny in itself, but I, you know, it's all good. I mean, I like to, if I can get a different reaction from, you know, Being a different way.

And, and, you know, I don't know, I don't know the truth of what their [00:36:00] origin is either. So I've got to, it's just easier to go in with a respectful approach as if it's a person. And, um, so, yeah, I actually, that's something that I really enjoy. I always look for dream characters and to try and get them to interact.

But I think my intention just often causes them to kind of avert gaze. And. give me fairly short answers without, um, too much going on, which, but I'm working on it. That's a work in progress. 

Amina: Yeah, for sure. It's definitely interesting how lucidity evolves over time. I love talking to dream characters too.

It's one of my favorite things to do. I noticed there's a lot of like people talk about things all the time online and a lot of things with lucid dreaming. It's kind of based on the beliefs you hold about what's going to happen, you know, so a lot of people put that in their brain that like, Oh, dream characters are going to react weird or bad if I tell them it's a dream, and it can happen.

A lot of people [00:37:00] experience that. And honestly, for me. I've never had that belief, but I really just kind of observe and I just, I'm so comfortable with my lucidity now that I'm just like, Oh, another day in the dream. And I don't even feel the need to like go get so excited about the fact that I'm in a dream.

So I just kind of talk to them, like, you know, like I'm walking down the street meeting people and sometimes I have my own agenda of like things I want to ask them about, but I just kind of observe and like taking that stance of just observing the dream for what it is has brought me like some really interesting lucid experiences as well.

Peter: Yeah. And that sounds good. And I know I aspire to that. I have found that I am becoming a little bit calmer. Like I'm not, I'm not just getting into totally overexcited states. Like the, the less frequent my dreams are, the more excited I am when I have a dream, unfortunately. So, um, you know, I've got to find that just that stable patch and just, just focus on, um, and being nice and calming.

And yeah, I really liked the [00:38:00] idea of observing and then. And also, hopefully I'll get through a dream where I don't keep thinking I've got to wake up to write it down because that, yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure how to balance that out because I don't want to miss it. 

Amina: One thing I do, because I've sometimes I'll have really long lucid dreams.

It'll feel like I'd be in the dream for hours. And I've kind of trained myself. And you can do this, too, even for short, lucid dreams. I kind of give myself keywords as the dream progresses. And I take mental notes or you can even have like a notepad in the dream if you find one. And so as I'm going through the dream, I'm like, OK, elephant.

And then I'll just remember that. scene, whatever, if there's an elephant or I'll be like, you know, now I'm at the park. So I'll just remember that one word park. And those keywords will kind of give me pinpoints throughout the dream so that I can like, remember the dream more. And then when I wake up, because I spent the whole dream kind of replaying those keywords back, it's kind of takes some effort to focus on the dream and also.

You can also have those like mental replays on your, in your head at the same [00:39:00] time, but you can kind of get used to it. And then by the time I wake up, I'll kind of remember that mental replay that I was telling myself as the dream was going on. And it becomes easier to record the dream later on. 

Peter: Yeah. I like that.

I like that idea. That reminds me of like the memory palace theory where you like have symbols and then you can attach a whole bunch of information to one symbol. 

Amina: Yes, exactly. Yeah, I kind of do that as the dream goes on. Um, and you know, I never can remember every detail of the lucid dream, which is sad sometimes because I cherish those memories so much, but, um, the more, the more often you get lucid, the more you'll get used to it.

And you'll be like, just, you know, be able to, to do more with it. So I'm excited to see your journey. It seems like you are already doing pretty good. I mean, compared to most people, you know, every few, every 10 days is pretty good frequency, I'd say. 

Peter: Yeah, and I wasn't sure, I mean, I don't feel old, and I'm just a little bit over 50, but, I, so I started [00:40:00] doing this pretty much when I was 50, and I wasn't sure, you know, how much you can learn and change the brain.

I know you can, like, I know it's a myth to say you can't learn as you get older. But, and also the ability to Um, so yeah, I've been really happy to go from like zero to four dreams a month as a 50 something year old. So, yeah, I feel, I feel confident that that's, that's one of the things that, that sort of feeds my, It's not anxiety that's too strong, but it's my, my, you know, impatience to, um, to, to get to a nice stable place where I can, you know, uh, just do more of these experiments and be, and yeah, interact the way you do that.

That's, that's not so kind of grasping that stuff, but anyway, that's right. 

Amina: Yeah, no, that's fantastic. Um, and you're already getting better at it. Is there anything that you really strive to do in a lucid [00:41:00] dream? Like, do you have any specific things you really want to try? 

Peter: Yeah, I want to try speaking to past relatives.

There's a couple of dreams. So while I'm thinking of that, I'll just tell you about another lucid dream. So I, I used to, um, work with a guy. He was a little bit older than me, but we were really good friends and we would play golf a lot. He was quite a good golfer. And, um, he, he died in his mid fifties. And, um, I kind of, I'd lost touch with him long before he died.

Like as in, Five to ten years before he died, but and then I heard that he had died, but um so in this dream I'm I'm sitting in a golf clubhouse, and I'm looking at Eric, and he's got these he had dark hair It was only a small guy and dark hair and piercing black eyes, and I'm looking at him. I'm going that's Eric And he's just staring at me, and he's not, [00:42:00] he's not responding, he's not upset, he's not happy, he's just looking straight at me, or, or straight through me more to the point, and um, so I'm looking at him, and I went, this is a dream, because you've died, and with that I kind of just lifted up, levitated towards him, and I didn't feel sad, I just, I just went, it was just a lucidity trigger, but it was, you know, in looking at that dream, I'm going, yeah, it was definitely Eric, and, and he was definitely just sitting there, he wasn't doing anything at all.

But anyway, so, I levitated up and just instead of doing a hand flip, this was just sometimes I just jump off the ground and I go, yeah, I know this is a dream and I'm going to prove it by starting to fly. So I did that and I just sort of flew over his head and flew around. And then my partner, she grabbed my feet and started swinging me around by my feet and started singing the song.

Um, and [00:43:00] Then a mobile, like, you know, those kid mobiles with, um, stuffed animals and things like that, that you hang on the roof, um, yeah, that, that appeared in the dream and then the, and the cows were alive, they were winking at me. And then a song came into my head. I might be mixing a few dreams together, but, um, the never ending story by Lamal, um, that came into my head.

So anyway, my point about, so that's the dream, but. The reason I mention that is that was a really good dream because I'm curious about Eric, the guy who had died, about why he was in the dream and how he appeared in the dream. It's, I think, I think the only people that I've dreamt of that are completely motionless are those that have died.

Pretty much everyone else is doing something, even if it's not much. There's some sign that they're doing something. They're doing something, but he was, I just [00:44:00] remember how, how still he wasn't, he had his eyes open, but he was just looking at me. So yeah, to, to answer your question of. Is there anything that I'm curious about?

I'm definitely curious about visitations from past relatives and friends, um, and in some non lucid dreams I've also, but this has all started happening since I've been practicing lucid dreaming. Two of my deceased uncles have also appeared. In a dream. And again, they're just standing there. They're just, they're just not saying anything.

So I'd really like to find a way to, to interact with them if I do come across them. But, um, yeah, well, I'm not lucid. Obviously, I can't do much about that. But I, Would like to find Eric or someone else again and just just ask them some question, just to see see what comes back. 

Amina: Yeah, that's great.

Visitation dreams [00:45:00] are an amazing thing to work with in the lucid dream. And it's quite fascinating. I've heard so many stories of people say that when they start dreaming of somebody that's passed on that. They are not speaking or they're just quiet. So it's quite common, interestingly enough. Um, and you can expand on that to have more deeper, um, interactions with them.

So yeah, good luck with that. Keep me posted. 

Peter: Yeah, we'll do for sure. Um, yeah, no, I, I'm, I'm really, that that's, yeah, that's probably one of the most interesting things that I'm looking at working on. And, um, I also like the Buddhism ideas are, so there's a couple of things. Yeah. Kind of interesting. So the idea of turning one thing into many and many things into one.

Um, I. or setting the intention to become something other than yourself. So one of my dreams, I set the intention to become a bird. Uh, so [00:46:00] in this dream, I'm, I just realized I'm flying and I'm going through a meadow and it could be kind of an American, um, uh, like a field, like where, where there's wild animals and buffaloes and things, except on my left, there's a Triceratops, but it's not a Triceratops.

It's actually a ingrained, like it's a grainy version and it's just made up of pieces of slate, just sort of shimmering slate. Um, and that's just, that was just an interesting part. But anyway, so I take off, that's, I'm flying and that's running beside me. And then I, Take off up into the sky and then I intend to become a bird, but actually turn into a horse.

So I'm taking that as a win because it wasn't a bird, I didn't actually achieve the goal, can't tick it off, but I'll take a flying horse 

Amina: instead 

Peter: of a bird. For that one. So yeah, that, that was, that was really nice to [00:47:00] be able to set the intention and achieve, you know, horse bird, whatever. 

Amina: Yeah. A win is a win.

That's really good. 

Peter: And running through walls. That's the other thing I really enjoy doing because the first time I tried to run through a wall, I just went bang straight through the wall. The second One time was shortly after I'd reread Robert Wagoner's book, and he'd mentioned about getting stuck in the wall, and guess what happened to me?

I got stuck in the wall, um, with one leg hanging out, and then I, and then I said to myself, come on, you know that whatever you suspect might happen, this is in a dream, I'm going, whatever you suspect might happen will happen, so just get yourself through the wall, so I did. Um, but yeah, I think that, Yeah, that, that idea that you might intend to get stuck in the door in the, in the wall came through, um, and just one more lucid dream that, that has some of the best parts of, from an experiment point of view.

[00:48:00] So, I wake up, or I'm aware that I'm in my room, and I look over onto the bed, I see another version of myself, and I'm about 30 years old, so that was 20 years ago. And I'm just sitting there, so I'll go over and have a chat to myself, and decide to go, and I'm in the current house that I'm in, so I decide to go exploring through the house.

So I go down the dark hallway, turn into a room, and I'm aware of a presence in the room, and I think it's my partner, But I don't wake her up because I just don't want to freak her out by being a freaky spirit in the room, so I don't, um, but then I go up through the wall and I notice the insulation and the electrical wiring as I'm going through the ceiling, and I come up above the ceiling into a dream space, which is, uh, it's like a bicycle velodrome, but there's buskers and performers, um, in this velodrome.

And there's. two guys there and one's playing like [00:49:00] a fiddle or something and I, I look at his face and he's got a big sort of Italian looking moustache and a big round or Italian or Mexican I'm not sure but he has a very distinctive round happy friendly face and and that was another example where I've gone off and got, uh, Excuse me, guys.

Um, I just wanted to see if, if you think this is a dream or not. I knew, in my head, I knew it was a dream, but I was being ultra respectful, even to the point of ridiculous, uh, and saying, do you guys know this is a dream? And I, they didn't really respond, and then we started walking off down the, down the velodrome, but then I, I was walking down and there's this concrete ledge on the side and I just start feeling the concrete and feeling of noticing the texture and feeling the texture and I'm going, this is amazing.

I got really excited by how real it felt. Um, and then went and spoke to some lifesaver because it was a [00:50:00] pool at the bottom and that's where the dream ended. But I liked that dream because, um, I saw a vision of my, a version of myself and, um, Yeah, there were some elements in that I'm going, this is, this is a kind of dream where I'm, I didn't expect any, any of this in any shape or form, it's, it's all just completely amazing.

Amina: Yeah, I love that. Those are some great dream experiences. And I'm excited to see how you grow in your lucidity and you know, know that I'm here to support you if you have any questions or need any tips or anything, I'm here for you. 

Peter: Yeah, thank you. And I'm just working my way through your podcast. So I've got plenty, it's really good stuff.

I'm really enjoying it. And I'll keep, um, I'll keep listening to it. And I'm going to interact with your, some of your guests too, because I think a few of them, a couple of them were saying that they are chess players and I'm a mad chess player. And I'd love to, better than playing [00:51:00] chess would be playing chess.

be playing chess online with a lucid dream chess player. 

Amina: Yeah, that would be cool. Maybe you guys could set up a chess game within the dream. That would be revolutionary. Yeah. 

Peter: Yeah. That's it. 

Amina: That's awesome. Cool. Well, have fun with it. Um, I'm set to release a podcast every week, so there'll be lots of content for you to catch up on.

Peter: Okay. Thanks, Amina. And, um, thanks. I didn't realize it was so late. I should have picked an earlier, um, Oh, no problem. 

Amina: I, I leave my times open because I like, you know, there's people all over the world and I stay up late anyways, 

Peter: because I wasn't sure whether you needed to get to bed and dream, but you know, you have so many lucid dreams.

Maybe it's not as important as me going to bed early. 

Amina: I do have lucid dreams quite often. Um, but yeah, it's kind of like I've evolved to where it's normal to me now. Right. It's. It's my priority to talk about it and inspire people. Let me ask you one last question [00:52:00] to kind of close out since you're kind of getting started, you know, when you had your, your route as a beginner, um, do you have any advice for people that are kind of starting out or maybe they're getting frustrated or trying to like get a lucid dream?

Peter: Yeah, I think just listen to all of the experts and do all of the things that people tell you to do and as you know, listen to you because I like that you are really, um, you don't sort of say you must do it this way or that way, whereas other people will give you direct advice. So be open, listen to as much advice as you can and pick the best advice that works for you, which is a bit cliche, but, um, and, and don't get too hung up on it if it's, if you need a rest, have a rest.

If it's becoming a chore, just take a chill pill for a bit and then get back to it when you feel like it. And I'll give that advice to myself as well. 

Amina: Yeah, exactly. It's like a lifelong journey, you know, so like anything in life, it goes up and [00:53:00] down. It flows. You get busy, you come back to it. Um, and. And even me, even me as a quote unquote, expert advanced lucid dreamer, you know, sometimes I don't lose a dream for a while.

I try to, at the very least, always write down my dreams and keep a foundation. Um, but you know, it comes in waves and that's totally normal. 

Peter: Well, thank you very much for letting me have a chat to you. I really appreciate it. 

Amina: Yeah. for reaching out and for coming on and sharing your experiences. So willingly, it makes me really happy and we'll stay in touch for sure.

Peter: Great. Thanks Amina. 

Amina: Bye. Have a great [00:54:00] day.