EP 88: Dreams, Death and Psychedelics

Today's guest is Tree Carr, an author and expert in dreams, psychedelics, and altered states of consciousness. Tree discusses her journey into these realms, her background in psychedelics and transpersonal psychology, and her role as a death doula. They discuss the connections between dreams and altered states, the practice of lucid dreaming, and the therapeutic potential of psychedelics. Tree also shares personal experiences and offers advice for those new to psychedelic therapy, emphasizing the importance of meditation, preparation, and integration. At the end, Tree pulls a card to offer guidance for listeners from her dreamy deck.

Tree's Links
Website
Books

Transcript

Amina: So thanks for joining me and welcome to the dream world podcast I'm pretty sure I had already heard about your stuff seeing you online like in the community But what really led me to reach out to you was I was in five below just like shopping And I found your book and I thought it was so pretty and like super beautiful and colorful So I was like, oh my god, I have to buy this and then I recognized your name and then you know It turns out that we're both in the dreaming community.

So warm welcome to you and I'm really excited to just hear about your journey. How did you get started on this journey with dream work and altered states of consciousness? 

Tree Carr: Thank you, Amina. It's so nice to be invited on to this dreamy podcast, and I'm sure we will find a lot of things in common, actually, as we zone into those dream realms, the realms of the unconscious and the altered states.

Yeah, so my name's Tree, and I'm an author, and I pen, I've been penning a lot of books on dreams in the past few years, but also other esoteric subjects as well. [00:01:00] And I am a graduate of the Aleph Trust here in the UK, in their program for psychedelics, altered states, and transpersonal psychology.

I also work with psychedelic assisted therapy getting zone, getting into the zones of the altered states, which are like the zones of dreams, effectively it's the same, it's the same area, the same zone, the realms of the unconscious. And I'm also a deaf midwife, which is also known as a deaf doula, or an end of life guide.

And I got my training over here in the UK. And that's part of my journey too. So I help people walk those liminal thresholds between life and death. And I support them like emotionally, psychologically, pragmatically, practically. as well through the terrains of death and dying. And yeah, those are the zones I feel the most comfortable in.

Those, the zones of the liminal, those are the kind of places I like to find myself in. I [00:02:00] like to help people in those, 

That's awesome. That's some really cool stuff. I definitely have similar interests. And so I'm curious in your opinion, how do these altered states of consciousness, such as like psychedelic experiences or even like hypnosis and meditation and other states of consciousness, how do they relate to dreams?

Do you think we go to like similar places? 

Tree Carr: I think we go to similar places in the sense that they, that the realms of dreams and the psychedelic experience really seems to uncover and reveal the zones of the unconscious. And what I mean by the unconscious zones is everything that we've pushed below the surface of our waking awareness.

So this is where we can hold our deep seated fears, thoughts, repressed emotions our wounds, our trauma, PTSD a lot of deep memories, too, that might not be processed properly. And so those are the zones that you [00:03:00] go to when you go into sleep and you go into a psychedelic assisted session. And actually there's biology behind it too, so I just spoke generally right there in terms of the unconscious, which is a big Jungian kind of concept.

But what's happening biologically actually, which I can find similarities between dreams, sleeping, and the psychedelic experience. is that neurologically there's various things going on and predominantly there is a slowing down of the brainwaves. So this is a very similar zone while you're dreaming and sleeping.

You have similar brainwaves that would be presented when you are having a psychedelic assisted session. So in other words, the brainwaves do slow down into a more receptive dream like beta brainwave. And that's very different from our waking brainwave, which [00:04:00] is the beta brainwave, which by definition is It's a more chattering, noisy task orientated brainwave, which keeps us in our, send your emails, your structured thinking and what the Buddhists called the chattering monkey mind.

And so when you move into sleep and dreams, you move into an altered state of sleep. Therefore your brainwaves move into a theta brainwave, which is more receptive. Theta is very much likened to the brainwave where we receive non ordinary. States of consciousness, flow states, creativity. We're able to access intuition much more easily.

We can get like insights and eureka moments in the theta brainwave. And it's usually associated with a deep state of relaxation as well and flow state. And so we can achieve those as well, not only in dreams, but also in. psychedelic assisted [00:05:00] session. So there's similarities also that are happening effectively with our neurobiology.

And I love that there's more research on this nowadays, especially on psychedelics and dreams as well. But about how it really, Can be so therapeutic and help people through like traumas like you were saying and that kind of thing So I love that you're at the forefront of studying this kind of thing 

Tree Carr: well, I think the science is really important to bring into the mix because effectively I see both science and mystical exploration or metaphysical exploration as being very complementary to each other And I don't think that the two should be divided like they have been I really think that with science, it's important to observe the the machinations of the things that are going on in our external environments in the universe.

It's like stepping back and taking the notes and observing and studying and writing down the empirical data effectively. And then, but the mystical side of [00:06:00] things are the metaphysical lens. The path of the mystic is to want to create within the universe, want to explore and to try things out. So I think it's also really important to also have the attitude of an explorer and why not?

Why don't we try this? Why don't we try lucid dreaming? Why don't we try to achieve an out of body experience? Why don't we try to do these things or have a psychedelic session and see what happens. And so I think also going along that path is also very helpful together creating a cohesive whole as to, the structure of reality.

And our place here in the universe, what are we doing? What can we do? How can we make it better? 

Yeah, the big question. Yeah, I love that. One of my big interests is bridging the science and the spirituality because I do think that they should go together. And I'm curious about some of your personal experiences.

Was there a certain dream or experience [00:07:00] that kind of inspired you or got you started on this journey? If 

Tree Carr: I think about it, some of my earliest childhood memories have been of dreams that I've had. Or these kind of out of body mystical experiences, lucid dreams, vivid dreaming. They hold more of a poignant memory for me than just say the mundane day to day of what a little kid might be doing, back in the seventies.

So my journey and dreams and my fascination with dreams, not just dreams, just consciousness really in general, I used to spend a lot of time in nature as a kid and I used to sit and like really observe and look at flowers. I used to look at my toes, like my feet. there in the grass and really look at my feet and I get really tripped out like whoa I'm like what am I'm like this kind of awareness I didn't know the words for them I'm just I'm me but then I'm in this like strange body and like this little body and like I remember times when I was a kid like Deep memories of crawling around and being frustrated that I wasn't I couldn't walk, being frustrated that I [00:08:00] wasn't taller, that I couldn't reach things up on to, the counter.

I remember having those POVs as a very small child. And so my fascination really with dreams is also very much linked in with my fascination of consciousness and the true nature of reality. Because when I felt like what I was doing as a little child, observing my toes in the grass was like realizing that there was two parts of me.

There was part of me that was a physical body that was here having this experience in the grass. And then there was this other part of me that was like a awareness or what was that? That's something different. And it got me really fascinated, especially at night when I go to sleep and I would. I would play around with that awareness, or just being aware, and then I'd find myself flying through space, moving through stars, and moving through the infinite void with great speed, and, I guess what would be defined as either an out of body experience or a lucid dream I've had this, kind of obsession with how it all works ever [00:09:00] since I was a very small kid.

I can relate to that. I was a very existentially thinking child and I was always like so mind blown by consciousness and I guess it makes sense why we're doing what we're doing now. It's like one of those kids that you look at them and you're like, yeah, they've been here before.

Tree Carr: We've been around the block 

probably 

Tree Carr: it's the last time, I don't know. 

Yeah, maybe. So when it comes to lucid dreams, out of my experience, astral projection, there's a lot of like chatter about are they the same? Are they different? Are they related? What do you think? We touched on it a little bit, but do you define them a certain way?

Tree Carr: Yeah, they do feel palpably different than each other. A lucid dream, by definition, is the type of dream that you're having where it's a seemingly normal mundane dream and then something unusual happens within the dream that wakes you up within the dream. Suddenly there's like a pink elephant flying through your backyard and then it peeks you into awareness and you say, Hang on a minute.

This is a dream, I'm dreaming, and then you're [00:10:00] completely aware within the dream and you're able to direct your will and intention towards co creating and having adventures within that dream. That's a lucid dream, but an out of body experience or an astral projection in esoteric terminology is slightly different because you're actually having the experience in your room, in your bedroom, in your house, in your home.

So the setting isn't a dream setting like I just mentioned with the backyard with the flying elephant and the pink elephant in the backyard, but it's in your room. And then there's also this very distinct feeling of the exit of your body and a disconnect from the body, a sense of floating or or flying through the air, passing through walls.

And effectively feel like a ghost like feeling to it. And often the experience can be accompanied with. sensations of sleep paralysis as well. So high vibrational buzzing and electrical feelings within the body. right before you exit. And when you [00:11:00] exit too, it doesn't seem like you're in a dream.

You do feel very much, obviously lucid, like a dream aware and awake. But you are very aware that you are sleeping in your bed. That your body's over there, that you're in your room. And the. The atmosphere is slightly different. It doesn't feel like a dream. It does feel like you're in your room, but it's like a downgraded version of reality.

It's almost like everything is slightly black and white, or you're on some sort of CCTV, like a close circuit technology like low grade, lo fi version of reality. And there'll be strange things in the room, too. Sometimes there's there's entities in the room or other forms within the room.

Sometimes the room is slightly different. I've had exits before where I've exited in an apartment in London. And my apartment doesn't look like my apartment now. It looked like the apartment. Decorated in the 1970s, so it felt like I kind of time traveled a bit, and I was in the, the 70s version of my [00:12:00] apartment.

So there could be odd things like that sort of come up within the space too they do feel slightly different in the sense that the setting is different. The setting's different the onset of the experience is different. One is very somatic, it's very much like you, you feel your body, there is a very a big awareness of your body.

Whereas a lucid dream you're really in the dream zone, you're really in your REM, fully in it, and the dream becomes almost like a virtual reality. And, the thing is, lucid dreaming has been proven by science, there have been sleep tests done about it. Back in the 70s, there was sleep labs run on lucid dreaming, and lo and behold, wow, it exists!

Everything got the thumbs up by the scientific community as something that actually happens and exists, even though people have been, Lucid dreaming for thousands of years, and there's lots of texts around it, and there's a lot of information around lucid [00:13:00] dreaming, especially in the Tibetan Buddhist practice of dream yoga, and there's so much material about it.

Although people have also have been swearing by the astral projection or out of body experience, and there's lots of information over thousands of years around that too, and especially in esoteric literature. Science has not found a way to prove that yet. And I think there's been lots of trials and runs.

Around proving the out of body experience, not to the great, the same success as a lucid dream. But the jury's still out on it, but in, in my opinion, is don't let that hold you back from trying to have these experiences. Most people have them arbitrarily, but there are ways in which you can induce an out of body experience.

Through your practice, through a practice and your willpower and consistency and they can be life changing. Don't wait for the science to catch up on that, take the path [00:14:00] of the mystic and try it out for yourself and Yeah, I'd say they're two separate things. I feel like they're very much different.

Yeah, I agree. Science always has a lag on things that people have known for centuries. I've been lucid dreaming since I was a child. So there's a very distinct difference for me. I'm very comfortable with lucid dreaming. I know how it feels. And there's always some lines that blur, some dreams feel deeper than others.

But when it comes to OBEs, Not all of them, but most of them have been through psychedelic experiences. And there's always a very distinct, like you said, an exit and an entrance point of when I very specifically remember like leaving and coming back and going to this other type of space. And I was awake the whole time.

I wasn't in REM sleep. I wasn't asleep, like in lucid dreaming. Asleep so it's very different for me and I thought that those are very interesting and they're like memories that are just like burned into my brain So i'm curious about your psychedelic experience too. How did you get started with that?

What types of plant [00:15:00] medicine are you usually drawn to? 

Tree Carr: So I guess my first psychedelic experiences would have been like most teenagers and they would involve recreational, recreationally induced experiences. And so I was a teenager in the 80s. My first experiences were with psilocybin, with magic mushrooms, which were readily available.

You could you could find them really easily, either dried or even if you knew where to go, you could pick them. I need them. So, mushrooms were my first psychedelic experience. And I found with the mushrooms, I really loved them and took to them. I found that I didn't read any literature about them.

I just, it's one of those things that you just, you know, It's just part of your teenage exploration. And in, in the eighties, there wasn't a lot, there was no internet or anything. So we were just like, yeah, let's eat these little mushroom guys and see what happens. And so what I found really interesting in my [00:16:00] first experiences with mushrooms is that they really highlight a lot of the things that have been written, in terms of their therapeutic use, use later on.

My experiences were just pretty much joy. Like I really did feel very vividly that I was communing with an intelligence that was different to mine and they felt to me very elemental as well. What I mean by elemental in esoteric kind of lingo, is that it felt like they were their own little personalities.

They felt very like fairy like, or very elf and like little mischievous sort of gnome type of energy. And, in fact, that was what I was seeing a lot of when I first had my first mushroom trip, was a lot of fairies, a lot of little pixie type creatures and whatnot that were making me laugh, actually.

And so I've always equated mushrooms with joyful, [00:17:00] elemental sprite like energy that, that's there to make us serious, hard. Hardcore, rigid, egotistical humans lighten up a little bit. And so I was really grateful for those experiences. Those first experiences with mushrooms.

I remember once walking into the room and I had eaten a whole bunch of them, but then there was a bunch of them still just like there on the table. And I literally felt them telepathically speaking to me, like laughing, going ha boom, come and eat some more. Like they were like literally really funny.

And these were like. These are common experiences with people that I had no idea about at that point. And I thought, wow, I've always really loved them. They're they bring so much joy. And of course, if you take them in really heroic doses, they can really show you some shadow stuff, of course, too.

But I think that they're a wonderful plant medicine in terms of even just a micro dose. And able to getting rid of the blues or melancholy or even just like rigid [00:18:00] thinking like just opening up the pathways to Thinking outside the box a little bit more not being so stuck in ego and so Such a serious human, you know so my first experiences with psychedelics were the mushrooms And moving into the 90s, I was like part of the early rave scene as well.

And I went to a lot of like raves and happenings and festivals and whatnot. And of course the new drugs on the scene were ecstasy, MDMA, and When the first time I tried, though, that, wow that was absolutely, I found a healing experience, even though it was in the midst of a rave. It felt like a boundary dissolving experience.

I felt deep empathy for the world, for the planet, for everyone, it's such a cliche you feel so loved up, you love everyone, and, but it's true, and I felt like it was almost like a, Spiritual experience and mystical experience to have that amazing [00:19:00] boundary dissolving experience in the in 1990 and like having that connection to the bigger picture and I remember at one point when it was all like boundary dissolving and it was just full of so much joy I was like why do people drink alcohol like it was like the first thing that popped in my mind is like Why is everyone going out to bars every week and getting absolutely drunk?

I felt like the drug consciousness of MDMA showed me how alcohol was so super low vibe and violent and like messy and I saw the opposite, right? And it was interesting to what, even though that's a synthetic, what that compound showed me. But yeah, as I moved forward, I started, I've always been interested in psychedelics, even psychedelic music and psychedelic culture.

Having been a child of the, born in 1972 and just having that around me growing up, I found myself more and more working with plants. And as a teenager, it was like also all the dreaming plants and herbs, mugwort and all the things that stimulated [00:20:00] dreams or out of body experiences and the stuff that wasn't necessary, necessarily psychotropic.

And then just, found myself getting more and more interested in this stuff and then as psychedelic therapy started to come back onto the radar, as a viable therapy and research started again, because it was literally banned for decades, right? I thought, ah, great. This is my chance to, to be able to.

work more deeply from that psychedelic assisted, therapeutic, transpersonal therapy model. But before all that, I was partaking in ayahuasca ceremonies in, in more In depth kind of experiences that were therapeutically driven So ayahuasca was a big game changer and a big teacher for me, actually 

Yeah, that's fairly interesting What a great journey and I love how a lot of people independently come to similar conclusions on their own psychedelic journey Like one big lesson that people get is [00:21:00] wow life isn't as serious as we thought it was And like you said like the mushrooms talking to you like I've experienced that too.

And it's always so funny. Like they literally have an energy of their own and like a mind of their own. And they come to heal us and really even mushrooms in general, like they rule the world and we don't even see them. Like they're so active underground. And I just think that's so cool for people that are interested maybe.

And they're new to the whole psychedelic journey. A lot of people are like scared of having bad trips or tweaking out do you have any advice for people that are maybe like interested or it's calling to them But maybe they're a little nervous about where to start. 

Tree Carr: Yeah, this is a really good question I really think that before going into a psychedelic Assisted therapeutic session or an ayahuasca journey is to really understand how to sit with yourself and I think a meditation practice is really important as a foundational precursor before [00:22:00] going in because sometimes and most often in a psychedelic journey you will come across some very difficult and challenging zones.

The zones of your shadow. And it could be really difficult. Different things are popping up. It could be through the visions that you're having or the sensations that are arising in your body. And people feel like they want it to stop. And it feels a really bad trip effectively.

Whereas if you. have a good foundation in a meditation technique, you'll be able to sit through it and allow it to pass through observation more so in, in probably in a better way with more. It's more of a neutral mindset, understanding consciousness and how to sit like your consciousness observing and experiencing whatever you're experiencing through a calm and present mind.

So some folks who don't [00:23:00] have that kind of framework, they'll go into a session and really struggle. They'll fight it the whole way. They might. end up needing a lot of help in terms of the shaman or the therapist coming over to help bring them back into a centered place. So I think that's so important.

It can make the experience much more, you'll get much more out of it. You'll be able to see the dark content as okay, I'm understanding this is connected to this trauma or this wound or this relationship, and you won't get carried away with, just the fear or, the uncomfortable nature of what you're being shown or experiencing.

So meditation is a really helpful thing to sit with. Because this is sitting with yourself, when you're under a psychedelic drug, you're sitting with yourself to the ninth degree, like you are unpacking. all of those hidden away boxes that you kept neatly stored away [00:24:00] and compartmentalized and didn't want to look at.

And there's stuff there that might make you really be upset. Also I think another really helpful tip is to learn about the plant that you might be consuming and learn about how to prepare because with most of these sessions, preparation is important. Sometimes it involves a special diet.

Sometimes it involves abstaining from substances a few weeks before your session. And just being very gentle, like self care, gentle gentle activities as well can be part of the process. The preparation too. So I'd say really study the preparations, study the plant, know what to expect to some plants will make you, vomit, you'll be purging or throwing up, sometimes it's out the other end too.

You need to look at all these other things of what you can expect Go online, look at people's testimonials, what they experienced [00:25:00] from a psilocybin session or from an ayahuasca session and see if it's for you. Personally, it's the hardest thing, the hardest things I've ever done in my entire life.

To, to me, it was the closest thing to a near death experience, and I had a near death experience when I was four. for, but that was a gentle one and not as like hardcore as the things that I experienced as an adult when I worked with ayahuasca over a period of nearly three years or whatever.

It's work. It's not entertainment. It's not it's not all love and light. Some people think sometimes you're taken into some really deep. stuff that pertains to you. And it's here you go. Sometimes setting an intention can be helpful before a session. But you know what, the plant's going to give you what it's going to give you.

And sometimes the intention is just not even part of what the plant decides to show you. I guess those would be my recommendations. When you know it, if you know it, if you need to sit with these plants you just know it. So don't feel [00:26:00] like you have to impress anyone or that it gives you a notch on your spiritual belt because everyone else is doing it.

Don't do it if you don't feel called to do it. Do it if you do feel called to do it. It's not for everyone. Some people get through their healing journey through something else. It could be through acupuncture, it could be through just a dedicated meditation practice or it could be through something, sound healing or some other module.

Some folks need to go in this other way, so feel into it, we're all different. We're all different and we all get there in different ways. So don't ever feel left out because it might be trendy or something. 

Yeah. Thank you for that. That's some really great advice. And I completely agree. And I love what you said about having a good guide and good people, good environment around you.

That's really important as well. So 

Tree Carr: definitely the set and setting is a hundred percent important. Don't just, Go to some warehouse in some inner city place with some dude with a playset. [00:27:00] With a stick of palo santo and some ayahuasca in an Evian bottle. Really be careful. Yeah? Really do your research.

There's a lot of really safe containers out there for people to have these experiences. I know the Netherlands, it's it's legal, a legal thing to do. You can go to centers in the Netherlands. To have these experiences and then you have the integration process afterwards, which is super important because there was a time there in the like.

Kind of the the mid 2000s all the way up to probably, maybe even just a few years, maybe until now where people just go and have these deep ayahuasca experiences, like totally cracking the egg open, so to speak. And then there's no integration at all for these people afterwards because they're doing them at these festival situations or, in a warehouse somewhere.

They've. They hired somebody to come by their house to do it for them. But the integration is the most important part of the process. And a lot of people skip out on that. And then people come out of it [00:28:00] really unaligned, really untethered and not knowing how to process their experience. So integration, that's part of what I offer is integration sessions.

So people will sit with me and we will talk through the experience. Sometimes we'll go back to the experience through meditation and we talk through it. So there's a lot of talk therapy. There's like art therapy that's mixed in with that too to help get connect the dots with all of the experience to understand what the message is moving forward and a big part of it too, is that the plant consciousness gives you homework, it's like, You're meant to, you've got to work on this.

And so for some people it's like with their relationships, some people it's like their relationship to themselves and their body. And so there's homework to be had. And the task moving forward is to implement it because it's not enough to just receive the knowledge and the insights. From the cosmic mother.

It's all about the application of it after [00:29:00] we have to apply it If you don't apply it, it's just okay. You got all that information and you're not applying it that you defeat the purpose of these experiences. So the application is super important. Integration is super, super important. And there's not enough guides for people in the aftermath after, mind melting psychedelic experience.

So yeah, that's what my job is, this is helping on that part of the journey. 

Yeah, that's super important. I'm glad you brought that up. You mentioned that there are ways to induce out of body experiences. What tips do you have for that and what methods are you usually drawn to?

Tree Carr: Tips and methods for inducing an out of body experience. Something that's really helpful, again, I'll go back to a good foundation is a meditation foundation. It's good. It's good for everything, to be honest. Meditation is like the base note for all good things in life moving forward.

And the reason why I go back to that is [00:30:00] because meditation is the art of knowing thyself, being able to sit and be with yourself, and to be in silence, in stillness. And whatever arises, you don't freak out. You're just like observing. And it's really important to be able to do that.

You start to understand the mind, the body, the mind, consciousness, and all of the different sort of zones of ourselves. And it's helpful because when you're building a consciousness muscle. it always comes back to meditation. You start to get it, it clicks and you go, I understand consciousness.

Now it sits here and this is the zone I get into. Okay. Thoughts are just clouds in the sky. And so it's a practice. It takes a lot of practice to be able to just go aha, get the aha moment and understand what that's like. So with a OBE practice, if you have a meditation practice, it makes it much easier.

Makes it much easier because you're already trained in [00:31:00] being able to be still, to be conscious and aware, and to allow thoughts to pass, and to stay focused. Because what you want to do is you want to stay focused on the stillness of your body as you're falling into sleep. Sometimes people like to do that.

I like to do it in the morning when you've already had a full night's sleep. So I like to do it in the hypnopompic state, when you're coming out of sleep. So when you're coming out of sleep, that's that sort of sleepy zone where you're waking up, you're still dreamy, but, you're aware of your surroundings.

So the hypnopompic is a really good time to do that. Stay really still, it's helpful to stay on your back. The back is the sweet spot. If you could even elevate yourself a little bit, so that you're on an incline a little bit. So as soon as you wake up, prop some of the pillows up so that you're on an incline.

That can be really helpful too. The ancient Egyptians knew that and they did that. They slept on an angle so that the pineal and the third eye [00:32:00] was closer to the cosmos. And so if you see any Egyptian style beds, they are all like elevated. They're all on an incline. It's also good for the health too, apparently sleeping on an incline, especially if you have sleep apnea and different conditions, snoring.

So prop yourself up, lay back on your back, get into a meditative framework. And the key here is to not move the body. So keep it really still really still. Even if you have the urge to itch yourself or turn over and curl up in a ball, you just You really fight that urge and you stay within the seat of consciousness, which is just behind your closed eyelids and you allow yourself to stay there until you move your body moves back into its slumber.

So you'll start to feel vibrations moving through your body could be sensations. Some people feel like it's like electricity coursing through the body or you feel like you're [00:33:00] vibrating or the bed's shaking. That's when you know, it's a good time to exit the body. Now the reason why I come back to the meditation thing People get this far to the vibration of what is known as vibrational state They get that far and all of a sudden they feel like they're having like a an epileptic seizure and they get so scared and freaked out that they wake themselves up and they say, I'm never going to try that again.

What was that? Am I having a heart attack? So if you have a meditation practice, you wouldn't be afraid of that. You would just, Oh, sensations are arising. I understand that this is the natural part of my body slumber. This is not abnormal. This is scientific. It's fine. I'm safe. And you'll be able to hold that Awareness of I'm chill.

I'm calm. It's all good. This is meant to happen and not get scared. And so as soon as that high vibration state kicks in then you [00:34:00] allow for your intention and your willpower to exit your consciousness from your body and everybody sees it in a different way sometimes Some people call it the astral body, so they imagine an astral body that's there that rolls out, or sits up, or spirals out.

I look at it through the lens of consciousness, which is just pure awareness. So I don't try to focus on like a body rolling out, or I gotta sit up. I just focus that my consciousness wants to go somewhere else. I just say, let's go to the ceiling. And so my awareness now just moves to the ceiling.

That's And so then I'm up in the ceiling and I'm hovering and I'm looking down and then my awareness or my consciousness is able to float through space, go through the window, direct whatever I want to direct. The key here is a meditative practice that can help [00:35:00] strengthen you into sitting with any fear that comes along with this out of body experience.

Now, some people think, get scared, right? They think, oh, it's not good. You shouldn't leave your body. That's against the laws of nature. Or you shouldn't leave your body because you'll never return. You will die. But that's not the case. That's not the case. You can leave your will. There is, it almost seems like there's like a, You're only allowed, almost scientifically out for a certain amount of time because you will snap back in and, no matter what, you will snap back in.

There will be a point where your consciousness does come and pull back in. So know that will happen, that you won't get untethered and just get lost in the astral plane or whatnot. You will come back, unless your body dies. Unless you, unless your body actually happens to die. Have a heart attack in that moment, but most people aren't [00:36:00] going to have that experience 

Yeah, for sure.

You always come back. You always wake up same applies to lucid dreams I tell people like you're not going to get stuck like it's hard to stay in the experience if anything Yeah 100 

Tree Carr: If you have a body you're tethered to this physical reality if your body is still the heart's still pumping and it's still Alive.

You're going to be coming back every time. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. The body is the anchor in this material reality. Your consciousness is a free agent is a free agent, but we are here with a contract with this body to be here for however amount of time we have, we get. 

Yeah. 

Tree Carr: But we can play with the liminal, definitely, but we will always come back as soon as it Yeah, that's 

a cool metaphor.

I like it. Yeah, 

Tree Carr: that's cool. 

I'm curious about this vibrational state. I've experienced it and a lot of people have, but does science know anything about it? I [00:37:00] know that we're like biochemical beings, but what is this electrical activity that's happening? Or is it even electrical? I don't know.

Tree Carr: We do have we do have energy that forces through our bodies. We do have electricity that forces through our bodies. We have all of the elements effectively, which make up a part of us, and so what I mean is like water, fire, earth, air, like we, we carry all of that within us when we feel the electricity, when we feel those vibrations, and most people feel it in sleep paralysis. So sleep paralysis is the state in which we wake up. Our consciousness is peaked in the midst of our paralysis. Now we go through sleep paralysis all the time during the night. Our bodies do that to keep us safe during dreaming. If we didn't. get paralyzed.

If our brains didn't release those two, chemicals that [00:38:00] make us paralyzed while we sleep, we would have, we would be acting out our dreams. We'd be running around, we would be running around the house, sleepwalkers, they effectively have a little bit of a dysfunction when it comes to those Mostly paralysis chemicals that need to keep us still.

But why do we feel these vibrations? It's so interesting. It's we sense this we sense an electricity coursing through us, running through us. Perhaps we are sensing the feelings of paralysis, of what is it, what it feels like when our bodies are completely still. And not moving, the muscles are shut down, everything is shut down.

Perhaps it's a chance for us to actually feel what that really feels like. So perhaps the vibrations are the the act of paralysis itself. The act of muscles and the body that cannot move. Now, the best way I can liken it is again, meditation. So like a really great meditation technique [00:39:00] that I use, it's called Vipassana.

And Vipassana is a pretty interesting and scientific meditation technique in which you focus your entire awareness I'm being completely still, sitting still, not moving anything for an hour. You don't move for an hour. You don't move your hands. You don't move your feet. You don't shift. And you keep your awareness on any sensations that are arising within the body.

So you could be getting like a tingling sensation on your shoulder. And then so you're supposed to, bring all your consciousness and awareness and focusing on that could be on your top of your head. You feel a tingling and then you focus on that. So when, what ends up happening in Vipassana.

When you get very adept at it is that you're able to completely dissolve the body. And it's just pure vibration. It's just, it's like sleep paralysis. It's like pure vibration. And you effectively, [00:40:00] your consciousness is like in a boundary dissolving state. So your brainwaves are probably, absolutely not in the beta brainwave chattering mind.

It's in more of a cosmic brainwave. It could be in theta or it could be in alpha. And so that's the best I can liken it to is that perhaps we're, we have this energy and these vibrations flowing through us all the time, constantly. It's just that we don't bring our awareness to it because we're constantly thinking we're thinking of other things.

If I think of my hands right now and I just draw my awareness to my hands right now, I feel tingling. I can feel tingling and energy in all of my fingertips. Like straight away just by shifting my awareness to them. And sometimes people get freaked out and they think, Oh, there's something wrong with me.

In some cases there could be, you could be, having a medical issue, but we are half of our senses are not tuning into the [00:41:00] incredible amount of energy that runs through our bodies is what I'm saying. And I think in those moments of sleep paralysis, We really feel them. We're really able to feel them and perhaps feel the, the paralysis itself.

And the reason why that's when astral projectors say, that's the sweet spot to leave your body when you're in high vibration, It's because the body is completely, if you think of the body as like an avatar, it's completely in slumber. Like it's not, you're not connected to the ego mind anymore and to, to the beast suit, the meat suit, the thing that just like you're driven by your hormones, you're driven by your, I'm hungry, I'm grouchy, I need to eat, like you're completely It's in slumber.

You have a chance to get out, to know what it's like to be pure consciousness for a little bit of a while, and then like to come back. I liken it to a mini death. I like to see dream work, [00:42:00] sleep work, the out of body experience, and all these things as preparation for death. I see them as that, and it helps you understand your body a little bit more, understanding it's a vehicle that your consciousness resides in for a while, to do stuff here in this reality, hopefully to make it a better place.

Better reality. And yeah, anyway, those are my thoughts on why we feel the vibrations. It's a theory. Anyway, it's a hypothesis. I'm not a scientist. I haven't run the tests on this, but 

yeah, it's a great theory. It makes complete sense. And I resonate with that a lot, so I'm sure other people will.

So thank you for the great tips. And that's a perfect transition to the next thing I was going to ask you because sleep is really like a preparation for death and people have been saying this for centuries and I saw this joke that it's like death with no strings attached, it's funny.

But and my lucid dream experiences have made me not scared of death as well as my, other, experiences within consciousness. So I know that it's just a continuation of journeys. But you [00:43:00] mentioned that you're a death doula, which I think is super cool. Can you tell me what that's like?

And how do you assist people with this process of transitioning from this state of reality to whatever is beyond? 

Tree Carr: Yeah, the death doula work, it was something that I was called into through a series of synchronicities. over a 25 year period, maybe even more. And like my first experiences with death were near death experience at four, which was like a sneaker wave pulled me out into the Atlantic ocean.

And it was like a touch and go situation, but I won't get into it, but my dad saved my life. But I had a whole boundary dissolving moment of I was dying. I surrendered to death. I felt deep deep sadness for my parents that. Like concern for them that they weren't going to find my body and like all these big, deep existential kind of epiphanies at the age of four and my little life passing through my mind and stuff, which is like funny.

But anyway, so that, that kind of [00:44:00] started it all off and I felt much more comfortable around death. And it was several years later, I think it was around six or seven when my grandfather died. And I felt really comfortable. I didn't feel traumatized around it. Like he was in the coffin and at the wake, and I was holding, I held his hand while he was in the coffin.

And I just really understood that he just shifted form. His consciousness has just, moved on to some other experience, so to speak. And then I started getting synchronicities all through my life of always being somewhere in the public where, I ended up helping a person who's gotten run over by a car or thrown off a motorcycle or had a heart attack or a seizure.

All these things started happening literally about three or four times a year. A lot. A lot to the point where I was like, this is really freaky there's something so strange about this. [00:45:00] And in those moments, I was always the first person there to help the person who's struggling or who got wounded or hurt and calling.

Calling emergency services or doing CPR. And I was just like, why does these things keep happening to me? This is so weird and so unusual. And I'm getting a little bit of a complex from it always happening. And it got to a point where I started feeling is it me? Am I causing this? Is there something about me that I always happen to be in these situations where someone's fallen over and getting hit by a car or something.

So anyway, I was. It was the age of 40, so this would have been, I'm nearly 52, so this is when I started moving into service to be a deaf doula. I had this experience again with a stranger on the street where this man was walking down Broadway Market and he started struggling and he leaned against the wall.

And he was right in front of me, stopped. So I just said, oh, are you [00:46:00] okay? Do you need to sit down? Would you like a hand? And he just completely collapsed, and he was clutching his chest, and he was having a massive cardiac arrest. And many of us ran to him to help with CPR and trying to desperately to try to help his situation, and he was turning purple.

He was going, and I knew I just knew in my heart of hearts he's dying he's going, we're not going to be able to save this person. And so his head was in my lap, and I was holding his hands, and I just kept saying, you're not alone. While people were running to get a liberator from a local GP, and so basically this man He passed away, he died, and his final breath just, his mouth, and as he was dying, his eyes were wide up, wide open, looking up in the sky, and he had just tears just streaming down his face, and always thought what did he [00:47:00] see?

It was just something there, that he had, it just looked like he was transfixed. And that experience, was the end of many over the years that made me just go, what is going on universe? Like, why does this keep happening? So I decided to ask my dreams that night to just give me some clarity as to why.

These ominous kind of events kept happening to me where I was there in all of these situations with strangers over the years, like three to four times a year. Some of the stories I could tell you, I could do a whole blog on it, were outrageous. Like that I happened to catch people, or they fell into my arms.

Literally, I've had that a couple of times. And so I said to my dreams, please show me, what is this all about? And as I was waking up, I've got a like hypnophobic kind of vision of a flashing before my eyes of all the different times that it's, it happened [00:48:00] from the ages of set cause it started when I was 17, from the ages of 17 to 40 and all of the times, all the different people in quick succession is like a life review, but around these people and me helping them in the ways that I was helping them.

And then I just got like this Eureka moment. It was like a slap in the face from the universe that said, it keeps happening because that's what you're meant to be doing. And I woke up, I was like, and I was like, what I meant to be doing that. And it was, I was like, wait, hang on a minute. Is that a job?

Cause it's not a paramedic, like it's not being a nurse or a paramedic. Cause I'm literally like, I can do CPR and do all those kinds of things, but I was literally there more as an emotional support too, because I just hands in going, it's okay, look into my eyes, hold my hand. Breathe with me, like that kind of thing, while help, while the real help was coming, while the real medical people were coming. And I said, okay, so it's, what I [00:49:00] was doing was more emotional. I was like saying to Universe it was more emotional. It was like, that's what I was doing. So I was like, there's a role for that? For people who are dying or on the verge of death? So I literally went to the good old Oracle of Google, and I typed in, emotional support at death, because that's the only thing I could think of that I was doing in those roles at those times in my life from 17 to 40.

So I typed in emotional support at death and I got this, one of the pages was deaf midwives, deaf doulas. And I was like, what is that? So I saw emotional support and I went to it and I saw this training for this role of being a deaf midwife, an end of life guide, where you are supporting emotionally and psychologically and practically and pragmatically people who are afraid of death, people who are walking towards death, facing death.[00:50:00] 

And I just had shivers through my whole body and I was like, that's it. That's what I've been doing. Okay, let's do it. So I signed up for the training and I got the training and so The certification, because you can get certificates in this kind of thing, apparently, folks. And I made it official.

Okay, this is what I do. This is what I do. And the interesting thing is, it's not stopped. It still happens to me. Where I'm in public places, I'm in, The right time, the right place, maybe at the wrong time, if that's the way you want to see it, and I'm there, it still happens, except this time I'm like, okay, thank you, universe, you put me here to help this person, I'm gonna help them out, and it's gotten even a little bit deeper too now, too, cause the universe will give me a heads up before things even happen now.

This one time I was on a train going into London and it was a packed out train, it was in the morning, it was rush hour, and I was [00:51:00] heading into London and I had a seat, I was sitting there just on my way and I, I clearly felt the universe come through and say to me, get up, get out of this carriage and go to the next carriage, you need to go to the next carriage.

And I was like, huh? What? And Trust me, get up and go to the next carriage because, the thinking mind gets involved and goes, hang on a minute, I got a good seat. This is a packed train. I don't want to go and give up, but I listened because that's what I do now as part of this role too. So I got up, I got out of my seat and I went into the next carriage and I went on the next carriage.

It's pretty packed, but there was a seat next to this guy. So I sat down and I was sitting in that seat. And then the train keeps going, and about ten minutes later, this man walks past me in the aisle. And so I just noticed him, he walked past, and then as he got about five steps past me, [00:52:00] he let out a scream, like a painful sound.

And I went, oh god, here we go, this is why I had to go into this thing. carriage. So I got up and the man had collapsed. He was clutching his chest. I was like, oh no universe, not another one, not another. Like I had a cardiac arrest in my arms before, which I've mentioned to you, but this guy was holding you still conscious and he wasn't turning purple.

So I was like, okay, but he kept going, Oh, like he was just in a lot of pain. And so there's a difference between a heart attack and a cardiac arrest. Like you literally, your heart stops and, but like a heart attack can keep going. And you can survive it, you could, but you need help.

You need, desperately need help, but you can stay alert. So I rushed over to him and then a conductor rushed over to him. The conductor got onto the phone and mentioned, is there a doctor on the train? A doctor came into the carriage. I was holding the guy's hand going, it's okay. Just look into my eyes.

Just breathe with me. I know it's painful. Just focus on the color of my [00:53:00] eyes and So I just tried to keep his mind away from the distress and the pain. And then a doctor came and and confirmed, asked questions, confirmed it was, he was having a heart attack. So effectively we had to get the guy off at the next station because there was going to be an ambulance and paramedics waiting for him.

And so when we got off at the next station, I got off with him. I was just like, I'm not leaving this guy. I feel invested. And I feel like the universe told me. to do this effectively. So I got off with this guy and we sat on the bench for a bit, but the ambulance came straight away, but I just kept my arm around him, comforting him and doing like the death doula thing, and then he was put onto a stretcher and they helped him. But, so the role still happens and I'm this, these things still keep happening. But also you can hire me for my services too, in which I can help you through a grave prognosis, or a family member who is on their deathbed.

And the [00:54:00] death doula role can be so many different things. It can be helping with the emotional terrain of death. People get very emotional. depressed, they get distressed they can have an ego death, they can be emotionally and psychologically in distress. So I can help people through those terrains of the dark night of the soul, basically.

And I also help with hands on things too. So with deathbed vigilance, so some people want therapeutic deathbed situations where it feels calm and peaceful and the family members feel taken care of. And there is maybe even a spiritual element to it. So some people believe in, a spiritual element.

So I come in for that. And I also help afterwards too, with grief and bereavement for the family and moving through the process of grief. And I'm also I facilitate funerals and. [00:55:00] Memorials and vigils and that kind of thing. So there's a lot of different things connected to the work of a death doula. It can also be practical stuff like, I go help clear a person's house out, or I help, help people with their death certificates or advising them or signposting on what to expect when you're closing down someone's estate, things like that.

Because it's hard to leave this existence apparently, there's a lot of papers to sign. That's funny. That's 

Wow the goosebumps I got while you were telling me that's really deep powerful work and like really important Position that you have so and I think it seems like you've been doing it so well So props to you for taking on that role because it is important and a lot of people are scared of death some people aren't but a lot of people are so I think it's a good message to them to say it's okay You'll be fine.

Yes 

Tree Carr: And also i'm an advocate like a death positive advocate. So I do a lot of talks and lectures and death cafes and things like [00:56:00] that to help people just talk about death in a positive way to realize it's a reality. Hey, there ain't no life unless there's death. There's no death if there's life.

Ways in which you can move through living better and living more vibrant lives, knowing that there is death too, and the life death rebirth cycle and just And that's a big part of my work too. I try to help people feel comfortable and more accepting of this, of the reality. It is a reality.

Yeah, true. I love that. Wow. This has been really inspiring and amazing. And really the last thing I wanted to ask you was, you have a couple books out and I would love for you to tell me about that and also where can people find you and follow along with whatever you're doing. Sure.

Tree Carr: Yeah. I've got, you can get them on Amazon or they're in a lot of like Barnes and Nobles and like all those kinds of shops and those stores. But I guess the easiest place online, you just can head over to Amazon and you can find them. [00:57:00] My first book, Dreams, which is a really great one for creating your own dream practice to getting into the zone of working with your dreams in terms of sleep hygiene, the science of sleep.

Like I talk about science stuff, like What's going on with the body as you're sleeping and what creates better sleep and dreams and the different categories of dreams Working with dream herbs and plants is in there too. And then the one that you picked up, Conscious Dreamer, which is an interactive journal It's like a 30 day interactive journal and there's a hundred and twenty different activities to help you become more conscious in the dream.

So when I say conscious dreamer, this means you, you become more lucid in the dreams, you're awake and aware in the dreams, but then you're also conscious in your daytime too, with the tasks and the practice that you're doing. So you're mindfully and consciously working on 30 days of dream work.

And so that's a fun journal one. [00:58:00] And then I also got this one's slightly more artistic and esoteric. It's called The Artist Oracle. And it's 30 artists that I worked with over the pandemic, working with their dreams. And they all chose a dream and they chose the dream and then they did a painting of the dream.

And so you've got 30 dreams with 30 different paintings and I interpreted the dreams and the dreams all give a message for everybody. So all of these artists dreams give a message and then we made them into a deck of cards. So if you pull a card So you pull this artist's dream. Oh, cool. Then you go and look at the meeting and the artist's dream gives you a prompt for the day, such as connect to your inner child allow yourself [00:59:00] a creative process today.

That was all conceived from dreams that were worked on with 30 artists during the pandemic. And then, I've got a book that came out last year. Which is a pretty thick book. It's an esoteric book on spell work. And there's loads of spells on dreaming in here. Spells on astral projection. Anyone who feels like they like the craft.

They like the magical side of themselves. And, The thing is, you don't need to be into the esoteric to cast spells. We're always casting spells. We, through our intentions, through the things we say to people. We could say to a person, you're so beautiful. I really love the wonderful artwork that you created.

And you just cast a spell on them that makes them feel alive and lifted. Or you could say something nasty to a person or you could troll a person. And that's like you casted a spell on them and made them feel terrible and miserable. In fact, the word [01:00:00] spell comes from the Proto Germanic word spellen, which means to tell, to speak.

I always tell this to people because they go, ooh, spells, I don't know, is that evil? I'm like, no, it's not. We're, spell, spellens, is, it's the art of intention, effectively. And if you're a dream worker, this is what you do. You set intentions. You go I'm going to, I do a practice where I set intentions to find an object in a dream so I can go lucid or I set an intention to have an out of body experience.

And so spells are no different from that. They're just like an old fashioned way of saying intention. loads of dream spells in here, dream intentions that are that you work with dream herbs with, and you make dream teas and intentions. So there's lots for dreamers in this book. Lots. There's 365 different spells.

And I've just finished another book just a month ago, which is another dreaming book. And that will [01:01:00] be like a four week workbook for dreamers. And that one's gonna be coming out hopefully by the end of the year. And, yeah, I'm excited about that one to get that one into Dreamers hands and a lot of my students as well because when I teach courses, it's good to have, workbooks as well while you're doing a dream course.

So yeah, those are all the different ones. 

Cool. So to close off, can we pull a card for like people listening and just, maybe see what comes up? Sure. Like one of the dream cards? Yeah. 

Tree Carr: Okay, great. Refer to got the little booklet here, so I can get the full meaning out to everybody. 

Yeah, you never know, it might be part of someone's synchronicity.

Tree Carr: Yeah, let's see what what green card you get. I'll blindly choose. Cool. I'll let I'll let energy prompt me towards the one that everyone needs. Ooh, that's the one. I'm gonna read this one [01:02:00] for y'all. Amy Steele was the artist. We've got an image here of a few little cats on the deck, and her dream is called Playback.

And the guidance of this dream is to dismiss self doubts and let your creative impulses run wild. Play and pretend, generate and fuse ideas. Make something with your hands. Doodle. Craft something. Do something. Do something analog. Step out of your comfort zone and step into a place of your creative flow.

And so this was the dream that she had, which were a few cats that were, they smashed a couple of tea saucers in her dream and they made a bit of a kerfuffle, but they made a creative looking kind of scene. And that was her dream. [01:03:00] And that's how we interpreted it. So that's the message for all of you dreamers out there, get fun, get creative, step outside of your comfort zone, even if it might be an out of body experience, you might learn something there.

I know I always do. It's crazy. I love 

that. Wow. Awesome. It's such a beautiful car too. I love the art. to stick aspect to it. This has been so great. It's been so amazing. Just having your energy and learning from you and talking to you. So thank you for taking the time to come chat with me and I'm sure we'll be in touch on the Instagram universe or whatever.

And in the dream world, 

Tree Carr: of course. Absolutely. Amina in the dream world, see in the dreams, see you all in the dreams, everybody, and looking forward to continued connection, Amina.