EP94: "Soo much of life is unimportant. Don't sweat the small stuff" -Charlie Morley's Lucid Dream

The legendary ‪Charlie Morley‬ is talking about his IASD presentation in June 2025. In his keynote talk, Charlie will be discussing the remarkable results of two recent scientific studies that used lucid dreaming as a treatment for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). The results of the studies were quite remarkable, with the average PTSD score dropping so far below the medical threshold that dozens of participants were no longer classified as having PTSD by the end of the one-week study.

He will also discuss the initial refusal to publish from many journals, the eventual publication in the peer-reviewed journal Traumatology, and his controversial TED talk on the subject that was blacklisted over disputed data. So, join us at this exciting talk to explore how lucid dreaming may well be one of the most promising interventions for trauma currently available.

✨ Join Us at the IASD Conference! ✨
The International Association for the Study of Dreams (IASD) is hosting its annual conference, bringing together some of the brightest minds in dream research, art, psychology, and spirituality. This is your chance to connect with a global community of dreamers, attend insightful presentations, and expand your understanding of the dream world.

📅 Register now to secure your spot! Visit https://www.iasdconferences.org/2025/ and be part of this incredible experience.

More Links
Sign up for THE BEST Lucid Dreaming & Dream Analysis Course

Register for 2025 IASD Conference

Enroll in the IASD online Dream Study Groups Program (DSGP)

Click here for a list of dreamy movies, books & shows

Transcript

Amina: [00:00:00] Well, Charlie Morley, how amazing that you could join me today. I'm excited for your keynote presentation at IASD online conference this year. I'm a huge fan of your work in research like yourself. I've also been a lucid dreamer since childhood. So I'm super happy to see nowadays that science is catching up to the amazing healing and transformational benefits of lucid dreaming.

And I love seeing a lucid dreaming. focused keynote presentation at the conference. So that's really, really exciting. Now your presentation focuses on your research done on lucid dreaming as a treatment for PTSD. So can you tell me a little bit about what can we expect from your presentation? 

Charlie: Yeah, sure.

So a pleasure to be here and thank you. It's great to meet you. Um, well in person online. Uh, I've been following your stuff too. And, um, yeah, excited for this presentation and excited for the conference. I kind of wish it was in person this time, because I'd love to meet everyone face to face, but I guess we'll be online and it can reach so many more people when it's online too.

So I'm still very excited. Um, yeah. So the presentation is it's kind of good, like [00:01:00] I've just done a Ted talk on this. So I did a Ted talk on the study, uh, which actually has been blacklisted. Uh, so it's unsearchable and un, uh, Googleable, like you can't find it. You can only find it on the link, which is on my website, if you want to check that out.

And the reason I mentioned that is because this was a level of controversy around the study. TED haven't banned it, but they blacklisted it because they are questioning the scientific validity here. Apparently a guy speaking for 13 minutes about a scientific study wasn't scientific enough. So who knows what's this space?

Anyway, we're in appeal. So if that was 13 minutes, this is going to be a much longer extended version of it where I'll be able to really go into the nuts and bolts of what we did. But essentially, um, I had. Been working with military veterans and other traumatized populations for the last like 10 years or so.

And I always offer free workshops to military veterans, uh, and serving military. And when we get, we get funding from elsewhere, but I make sure the workshops are free for the participants. So I had some experience there. And as you [00:02:00] know, there's a long history of using lucid dreaming to help treat nightmares.

That's very well established. If you can train someone to become lucid in a recurring nightmare and know, Hey, I'm not really back in Iraq. I'm simply dreaming. I'm back. This has a powerful deconditioning effect on both the psychology and the brain of the person. Actually, we can see kind of a brain changes when someone becomes, is able to become lucid and turn to face that which they were afraid of in recurring nightmares.

So that's well established. So I get this call from a guy called Garrett from, uh, the, uh, Institute of noetic sciences, ions. In San Francisco, I believe they're based. And I assumed he was going to ask, can we do another study? You're looking at lucid dreaming for nightmare treatment. But when I read the email, actually what he was saying is, can we use lucid dreaming to treat PTSD post traumatic stress disorder, which.

has nightmares as part of it, but he was actually talking about could lucid dreaming treat waking state symptoms of trauma like flashbacks, panic attacks, anxiety, depression. Now that [00:03:00] I wasn't aware of. I've seen some studies that seem to hint that it's a possibility, but what he wanted to do is really have that as our main kind of, um, data collection point.

So what we did is we gathered a group of people. I think it's 55 people in the pilot study. We've since done a hundred person randomized control and we managed to replicate results. But I'll talk about the pilot because then you can see the replication in the second study. So we had 55 people, uh, all of whom had to have chronic PTSD to get on the program.

So you had to have quite a high PTSD score, which sounds quite arbitrary, but it's basically like a medical model of diagnosing how traumatized someone. Uh, is at the current moment. So to get onto the study, you had quite a high PTSD score. Um, and our aim was to have one week with this group of people who are suffering with trauma, teach them lucid dreaming, but specifically how to become lucid in their recurring nightmares or how to become lucid.

And then intentionally face the source of their nightmares or trauma, whatever that was. And then at the end of the week, [00:04:00] we'd check their PTSD score again. So we'd have like a really clear data point. After learning, practicing lucid dreaming for a week, where people less traumatized the same level of traumatized or more traumatized.

And we got some pretty crazy results. I mean, I can see why, you know, Ted have questioned it. We found that by the end of the week, the average PTSD score had dropped so low. It was actually beneath the PTSD threshold. So not only had these people had a reduction in their level of trauma, the reduction was so great.

They were no longer classified as having PTSD. And this was the majority, actually 85 percent of participants by the end of the one week, lucid dreaming intervention no longer had, uh, uh, would diagnose as having PTSD from a medical point of view, which is insane. Like the scientists, when they first got the data, they, they like double checked, then they triple check.

Cause they thought there was a problem with data collection. Then they were like, okay, the data seems to be sound, but dude, this may be something weird happened. Maybe it was summer. You know, uh, group dynamic that you created and maybe [00:05:00] everyone just suddenly feels they're not traumatized after the week, but they are.

So we need to wait another month. So we'll do a one month followup. So then no contact with them at all. No more lucid dream training a month later, they take the same tests and they're actually still, uh, the reduction has increased actually one point below. So it seemed to have some lasting effect. Um, so this is kind of crazy.

I mean, the thing is though, and this is the interesting point about the study, and this is one point that I want to make clear. We cannot actually be sure that it was the lucid dreams that led to the reduction in trauma, because of course, people weren't in a brain scanner at the time. All we know is at the start of the week, they were this level of trauma, the end of week, they're this level of trauma.

And there was a correlation between the people who not only became lucid, but those who had what class as a healing lucid dream. So in the lucid dream, they intentionally turned to face and embrace their fear or their source of their nightmare. So we can't actually say it was the lucid dreams, but we can say it was lucid dreaming.

So the act of learning to lucid dream and engaging the practice [00:06:00] led to these, uh, drops in trauma, which I think is possibly even more optimistic because some of the kind of, uh, wouldn't say the haters, but like some of the naysayers have been like, yeah, but lucid dreaming is really a hard to master, right?

Uh, how are you going to teach people to get lucid in a week? And I was like, well, this was an intense week. But what we've shown here is it's not just the lucid dreams that can help reduce trauma, but just learning to lucid dream itself, because PTSD is such a disempowering experience that when counterbalanced with the hugely empowering experience of even just learning to remember your dreams, spotting your dream signs, seeing your hand change for the first time in a pre lucid dream, you know, all that stuff.

Also helps we believe to reduce trauma, perhaps not just the actual lucid dream itself. Although of course that was the big kind of cherry on top that led to these big drops. So yeah, that's the study I'll be talking about. That's the pilot. And then basically we got funding to do a hundred person randomized control.

Uh, and we replicated results again. [00:07:00] 

Amina: That is so exciting. So have you already done the replicated results or is that in progress? 

Charlie: No, that's done. And that got published last month. So once it got published, now I'm in appeal with Ted because I mean, you know, to their, uh, uh, uh, to their service, their main kind of beef with the talk was the punchline of my whole talk was, and then we did it again in a randomized control and that wasn't published yet, but now it has been published and it is online.

Hopefully they will accept that and then remove the blacklisting the talk. We'll see. 

Amina: Yes, hopefully, because this is amazing work that you've been doing and it really points. to the power of lucid dreaming as a practice. And what I love about this is even though, you know, you're contributing to the literature and, and the scientific research, which we need, you know, lucid dreaming is something that anybody can learn, you know, although maybe it's harder for some people than others, some people might be more natural.

This is something you can do for free, you know, so somebody that's experiencing trauma at home, or they have things that they're working through emotional blockages, you know, they can get a lot out of your presentation, not only from. seeing the [00:08:00] data to back it up, but from learning, you know, that they can do it themselves.

So what kind of techniques did you, you know, were the participants using during these workshops and how do you think that, that it helped? 

Charlie: Yeah, we were using all the kind of classic techniques, uh, lucid dreaming techniques. The main one we, uh, kind of pulled away from with things like big kind of weight back to bed practices, because a lot of the people, because they were currently traumatized, a lot of the people had very poor sleep already.

Only averaging maybe four or five hours sleep at night. So we need to make sure they were extending those REM periods. Um, but yeah, everything from dream diaries to, uh, uh, dream recall and dream signs and a form of reality checking, uh, falling asleep consciously, mild technique, you know, all the classics, I guess just the one we were kind of.

More, um, averse to was the big wake back to beds in case people couldn't get back to sleep. But yeah, just the classic lucid dreaming practices. But the main one we did was the main practice that I teach that I call dream planning, which is like a three step, just deciding what you want to do in your lucid [00:09:00] dream basically.

But I've developed a kind of art therapy version of it where you make like a vision board of the lucid dream you want to have with pictures and words and collages and stuff like that. So they've got this like really strong imprint. Like if you get lucid tonight or in one week or in one month, you know, exactly what you were doing.

There's not that sense, as you know, in lucid dreams, like I'm lucid. Oh shit. What do I do? God, there's so many cool things I could do. And then you woken up, I forgot to do something. So we made sure that everyone was super, super clear that they had a very strong intention, dream plan. Um, and I think that in itself already sets the healing in, in action.

Um, even before you have the lucid dream, perhaps. 

Amina: Yeah, wonderful. I think that's such a powerful tool. I teach that to my students as well. Um, I have like a list of like all these hundreds of things you can do in a lucid dream because, you know, even if it's not just for healing, having that plan really helps to stay in the dream and be prepared and, and it helps with the incubation process, I think, too, really setting it in your head that I will be lucid and this is what I'm gonna do.

Charlie: Yeah. Also, I think it's [00:10:00] a stabilization technique, too. Like when I first started teaching like 15 years ago, I would teach the kind of classic thing that when you first get lucid, just stabilize, look around, don't do anything too much, stay in the dream. Often people would do that and then they'd wake up by before they'd had to do their dream plan.

So now I realize that the dream plan itself, like engaging your dream plan, like as soon as you lose it, I'm losing. Um, in a child come to me or a big thing. It's like, it's as if the dream is like a fire that needs to be fueled. And if you get loose and you're like, I'm lucid. Okay. It's like the fire of the dream kind of whittles out.

Whereas if you get loose and you're like, I want to heal my trauma. It's like putting a big log onto the fire, you know, really, you know, sparks up the dream and actually keeps you in there for longer, so that's a big change to how I used to teach for now. I'm like, go big. You only need one lucid dream to change your life.

You know, so if you get lucid tonight, don't warm up, you know, don't ask my first lucid dream. I should take it easy. Like go for it. Meet God, you know, transform into Buddha, like explore the [00:11:00] emptiness of the universe. Like let your dreamer know I'm not, I'm not a tourist. I'm a traveler. Like I'm here. 

Amina: Yeah, that's amazing.

That's really good advice as well. And I would love to see how some of these people, like if you were to follow them up in a longitudinal study to see if they still are having lucid dreams. I know funding is probably a big thing, but what do you think is, where is this going in the future? How can we get more funding for this type of research?

And, and why do you think people are so hesitant to just accept this despite all of this indisputable evidence that we have? 

Charlie: A good point. I mean, you've got this thing that's free, non invasive, non medical. Uh, non addictive, you do it in your sleep. It literally sounds too good to be true. So I think there's that also possibly the fact that it is non medical and non addictive, uh, I'll leave that there, but there could be some parties involved who have a vested interest in things being medical and addictive.

Um, I think it's new. Um, relatively, I mean, I've got a friend who's now a professor of psychology at, uh, Greenwich uni and he's my [00:12:00] age and I'm 41. Right. But I still feel young. I still feel like a young person. Shit. I'm like middle aged now, but I still feel young. And I'm like, I remember when he told me, I was like, what do you mean?

You can't be professor. You're like my age. And he was like, yeah, like a normal age for a professor, dude. And I realized that this is how change happens. To quote Alan Wallace, the brilliant Buddhist Lama, he said, science will change when old white men die. Oh, that was a big one. I was like, that's everything there, man.

So it's generational. I mean, how old are you? You're much younger than me. 

Amina: I'm 29. So yeah, I'm not, you know, 

Charlie: no, no, there's a big difference between nine and 41. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. My, I think my generation kind of elderly millennials are like starting to push it because they've grown up with the like psychedelic therapeutic revolution, they've grown up with lucid dreaming, being normal, stuff like that.

I think your generation will be the ones when you guys move into these big seats of, uh, seats of power, basically the professorships, the [00:13:00] research grant people, you know. Uh, when you guys step into middle age, I think that's when it'll happen. So I think it's a generational shift that's needed because your generation's growing up.

Like everyone knows what a lucid dream is. Of course, you know what a lucid dream is. Of course it's legit. Whereas my generation, most people do, but some people are skeptical. The Gen Xs, some people know, but many are skeptical. And then, I don't know, the generation above, like, it seems madness that you can do this to, to many.

Yeah, 

Amina: I love, I love the foundation work that you've helped laid, you know, and all the other pioneers that are, that are helping this paradigm shift because, you know what, you're right. I think science is changing and although we, we need science, but a true scientist takes data and sees how things are evolving and to understand consciousness, I think we have to step away from materialism a little bit.

So I think lucid dreaming is a stepping stone to all this other You know, research about consciousness that we're going to start to get into. So I'm really excited for that. 

Charlie: Absolutely. I totally agree. And I think one thing we [00:14:00] can use, maybe not as, I'm not linking these directly, but I think kind of metaphorically there's, there's a link here is the fact that no one is freaking out about the fact that UFOs are now legit.

Like you've got the American government. I tried to tell my dad this the other day. Right. And he was like, Well, you know, it's not, they're not real. And I was like, no, no, dad, it's like, he went, why isn't it on the news? And I said, that's it. That's it. The point, why isn't it in the good point, dad? Why isn't it the news that you watch?

You mean, why isn't it in the news that you watch? Cause I mean, this is huge, right? That like. The, this is real. The government have admitted it. They're not saying it's, they haven't actually used the word kind of alien intelligent yet, but we're seeing non human intelligence use stuff like that. So I think these paradigm shifts, they happen drip by drip, and then there'll suddenly be some cultural moment.

And I think it's coming probably this year or next year where. The, the mainstream will go, oh wow, the kind of, the [00:15:00] alien intelligence is here. And I think it'll be like that with lucid dreaming. At the moment, we're in this drip drip. Like why isn't it on the news? Why don't people know about this? And then in a few years time, there'll be some big cultural shift.

And then we'll be going, dude, we've known this for like the last decade. Why are you so slow to catch up? But I think this is how it works. 

Amina: Definitely. Yeah, I tell people all the time like the evidence is there. What do you mean the science is there? You're just not looking for it. Maybe it's not on CNN or mainstream, but it is there, you know And that's why these conferences are so so important And I know you do a lot of work as well with military veterans and and those types of trauma survivors How do you see lucid dreaming like being integrated more mainstream into like therapy and mental health?

you know, practitioners using it in their practice, you know, how do you see like the medical field starting to accept it as a therapy? 

Charlie: Yeah. So I think it is, it is changing. So again, this, uh, in a couple of months in May, I'll be training another 25 therapists, no 20 of them, therapists, five, a wild cause, but, uh, another.

Uh, 20 [00:16:00] therapists will go through my facilitator training programs, like a six month, a hundred hour training program for therapists to learn how to share lucid dreaming with their clients. So there are another 25 from last year and 20 from the year before. So it's not hundreds, but it's getting there. We can say, you know, there are dozens of people now, at least who work with me, who are now able to bring this stuff into their, uh, to their clients.

And they are, you know, they're running workshops, they're giving talks at medical conferences and stuff. So I think that's shifting. And then next year, 2026, I'm doing the first, in the UK anyway, the first postgraduate diploma in lucid dreaming with Karuna Dartmoor, which is like a well established psychotherapeutic institute.

So I think that's going to be a big deal, at least in the UK. They're like, Whoa, you can get an academic, like post grad diploma in lucid dreaming just for therapists. Like that'll be a big shift too. So I think that will help, you know, working with academic institutions against starting to see the shift occurring.

Um, And also when it works, you know, the more therapists that start to use this stuff and see like [00:17:00] clinically significant results with their clients. That's when people will start to do it because we want to be good at what we do. And if enough therapists here actually lucid, you got a client with, with nightmares or trauma, lucid dreaming is really good for that.

So learn lucid dreaming, learn how to share lucid dreaming, and you can be better. At your therapeutic discipline. I think there's that too. It's like, once we start to see results from the clients, it'll be kind of an upward spiral effect. So I think it's happening, but again, it's, it's generational change.

You know, all I can say is I hope that by the time I enter the Bardo, hopefully lucidly, this will be mainstream, people will know about this and people will be using it to benefit themselves and others. 

Amina: Oh, I'm sure. I think it's going to start to happen quicker and we're going to see so much change. I mean, it's already happening, which I love.

Um, so that's, that's wonderful. I mean, the work you do is so important. And the last thing I wanted to ask you, just kind of shifting gears a little bit, is maybe if you're willing to share like a personal dream experience that you've had, maybe a [00:18:00] lucid dream that really struck, stuck out to you, or, or even one of your earliest lucid dreams, or anything that comes to mind.

Charlie: Yeah, so many, I know it's like asking a chef, like what's your best meal? You're like, Whoa, I 

Amina: know. Yeah. 

Charlie: You know what? I'm going to go for one. I shared just yesterday with a friend, kind of in my head and it's funny and it's nice. So I realized this is, I was in lockdown to get, it's like four years ago or something that I had never asked the lucid dream.

What is the meaning of life? Like a classic thing, right? What is the meaning of life? Like, why have I never asked that? And for people listening. The cool thing about lucid dreaming is you can ask big questions so you can become lucid and like call out what career path should I take or like, is this relationship going to serve my higher self?

You know, you can ask these questions and you get answers and some people are like, Whoa, legit. That answer was from God. Definitely. That was like a channel answer. And I'm like, okay, maybe, maybe, uh, you know, who, who knows? I think possibly the wisdom that you encounter in a lucid dream [00:19:00] is so huge compared to the wisdom you have access to in the waking state that were you to meet it, you would call it God.

Because there would be no other reference point for the huge, uh, force of wisdom that resides in the unconscious mind that we would call it God. And in fact, it is God because that is God. You know, we are God. I know that's kind of maybe a sacrilegious thing to say, but This is really what I believe. And I think lucid dreaming gives you a little taste of that.

Anyway, I'm not sure I met God in this one, but I became lucid and I called out, what's the meaning of life? Show me the meaning to tell me what is the meaning of life. I was for telling me, not showing me. And then like in the sky, these like words start to appear and I'm like, Whoa, it's like, it's going to tell me, it's going to tell me in words, like letters start to appear.

And in the sky, it says, it says the meaning of life is, and I'm like, Oh, what's it going to say? It says. It says, so, S, so much of life is unimportant, don't sweat the small stuff. And I was like, that's it. And then I read it, [00:20:00] and like nothing happened. And I read it again, and this like overwhelming sense of relief, like filled my body in the dream.

I was like, so much of life is unimportant. So much bullshit that I worry about, about caring what people think about me, what I think of her and all this stuff. So I'd come to, it wasn't instant. It's really interesting. It was as if it was like understanding a joke in the dream. Like when I first read it, I didn't get it.

And then I read it a second time, boom, something clicked. And I was like, so much of life is unimportant. Don't sweat the small stuff. You know, what matters, kindness, love connection, pretty much everything else can fall to the wayside. You know, kindness, love connection. That was the message that came through.

And I thought that was a cool one because it's so, you know, everyone can do that and everyone will get a different answer. And of course, is the answer true? Who knows what is truth. But at that time, four years ago, when I asked that question, that was what my dreamer gave back to me. So much of life is [00:21:00] unimportant.

Don't sweat the small stuff, concentrate on love, connection, and kindness. So I think that's so 

Amina: powerful. Yeah, I love that and I'm sure it's exactly what you needed at the moment since dreams An individual, you know tool. I think that's great. And it's funny that you mentioned that I'll share a quick story too Because i've asked that same question in my lucid dream a few times Oh, what did you get of life and I got something kind of similar but in more of a funny way So I I did this in three separate dreams the first time I got like One word answers.

I got unity and creative creativity. And then the third time I was like, I want more like that's cool and all But like I need more like I wasn't happy with that. So I asked this lady in the dream I was lucid and I'm like, what's the meaning of life? And she goes We're all just one big fake dream Simultaneously being dreamed by the bigger real dream and I was like, what does that mean?

What's the real dream and she goes some people call it God and then I asked her what's the fake dream and she's like I don't know. And then I'm like, me neither. And we kind of just laugh and skip away. So it's kind of [00:22:00] getting to the same thing of like, it's deep, but it's also not that deep. So just like laugh and don't be so serious.

And that's kind of like the message feeling I had in the dream. We just like laughed it off. And it's just funny because it's like, you can get these big profound things, but it's also kind of basic and just, you know, fun. So it's, it's funny. And 

Charlie: also that is pretty profound. 

Amina: You were told, 

Charlie: like, you're in this, like, matrix, like, dream, like, it's kind of a Buddhist view, like, this kind of dream like illusion that is being dreamt by the bigger dream, which we would call God if we were to meet it.

But is in fact the kind of universe itself dreaming itself into existence. That's brilliant. 

Amina: Yeah, it is. And then it kind of goes along with the unity and creative expression answer that I first got. So I'm like, wow, this is amazing. And I was really happy with that answer, but it's funny. Cause sometimes I tell that story and it just sounds silly because the whole message of the dream was, it's really not that important anyway, just have fun.

Charlie: True. Yeah, it's a dream, right? So let's just be as lucid as we can. 

Amina: Exactly. Yes. And that's just an amazing thing that people can do in their lucid dream [00:23:00] amongst all the amazing things to do in lucid dreams. Um, when you get lucid nowadays, like what's your current frequency? Like you have a practice yourself.

Charlie: Yeah. So like at the moment, really the last kind of year or so, I guess since I was in training for the study that you did, the dream yoga study at Northwestern, because I know they wanted like full on, like classic Tibetan dream yoga techniques for my bit in the study. I got really back into, uh, the Tibetan dream yoga stuff, which is kind of where I started, right.

Um, in, in my kind of path, um, but doing the kind of falling asleep, imagining you're the deity and doing all the chakra stuff and the mantra recitation and stuff like that. And off the back of that. The dream plans became a lot of the Tibetan Buddhist practices of visiting the different realms of existence and deity self manifestation, where you basically like turn yourself into the Buddhas and stuff like that.

And I'm still really on that. Like that's my theme at the moment, because I've got this, uh, new workshop and hopefully a book will come out of the workshop called a Dharma dummies guide to dream yoga, [00:24:00] so trying to present a, um, demystified, but not. De mystified, but not de mysticalified, like to keep the mysticism of it, but without the mystery of it, of the dream yoga practices, because some of the Tibetan dream yoga practices can only be practiced, like if you've taken refuge, if you've done the certain retreat, if you got these certain empowerments, true.

But there are many that aren't. And I think sometimes we throw the baby out with the bath water in the kind of Buddhist scene thinking, Oh, you just can't do any dream yoga practices until you're on retreat. Actually, there are many you can do. And there are some you can do even if you're not a Buddhist.

So in the workshop and the book, I really want to try and find those practices and offer them to people. So anyway, that's my kind of theme at the moment is doing, um, what's called like the pure realm stuff. Uh, which is kind of nuts. You become lucid and you try and leave the lucid dream. or transform the lucid dream into this pure like nirvanic realm of existence.

Now whether you're actually going to these nirvanic realms or whether you're transforming the mind into what it already is, [00:25:00] which is a nirvanic realm, who knows? Um, but they're very intense experiences when it works. Very intense experiences. 

Amina: That's so exciting. We will definitely be keeping up with your progress.

Um, and with all your studies and your research, um, so the conference is in June. So we'll definitely see you there on zoom and, um, yeah, it's, it's been wonderful chatting with you. I really appreciate you taking time just to talk a little bit about what you do. Um, so thank you. 

Charlie: My pleasure. Thank you so much.

Amina: Yeah, no problem.