EP100: Beyond Remote Viewing: Dale Graff on Dreams, Stargate & Government Psi Research

In this fascinating episode I talked to physicist, author, and former Director of the U.S. government's Project Stargate, Dale Graff, to unravel decades of secret research into remote viewing, precognitive dreams, and intuitive intelligence.

In this episode:

• Dale’s early dream guidance and how it led him to government-funded psi research
• The truth about Project Stargate and how it differs from the Monroe Institute’s Gateway Process
• Real examples of precognitive dreams and remote viewing experiences
• The power of dreams in everyday decision-making
• Ethics, misinterpretations, and the future of psi research

This episode is a rare glimpse behind the curtain of government-sponsored consciousness exploration, blending hard science, deep intuition, and extraordinary experience.

🎧 Tune in and explore what’s possible when we listen to our dreams.

Note***  At one point, I accidentally said  “PSI” (pounds per square inch). I meant “psi” (short for psychic phenomena) refers to mind-related abilities like telepathy, remote viewing, or precognitive dreaming. 

 🎉 This marks our 100th episode. Thank you for dreaming with us and being part of this incredible journey into dreams, consciousness, intuition, and the unexplored! 🌌 

Transcript

Still kept dreaming. And some of them work for this article. You know, I lived in a rural area. Too many visitors there. Yeah, and sometimes that dream now had information about an approaching visit that I couldn't have anticipated. So that gave me an idea that dreams could be providing information.

Well, welcome to the Dream World podcast. Dale. Welcome back. Today I'm honored to be joined by Dale Graff, author, physicist, former Director of Projects Stargate, which was the U.S. government's program investigating remote viewing phenomena and other interesting phenomena. So Dale has spent decades at the frontier of consciousness research exploring these mysteries of perception, intuition, non-local mind. So thank you so much for being here and taking the time to chat with me.

I'm excited to revisit some of these topics you mentioned to me before that dreams have guided your path, and can you tell me about your journey into this field? How did it began and how did you end up, you know, with doing government funded research on consciousness? Yeah. Well, okay. Thank you. So thank you for having me on board here.

It's a topic I, of course, enjoyed talking about. And, probably every time I talk about it, I have a different twist to it. So if it doesn't sound like what you heard before, don't be too concerned about it. But it's, about area and what your basic question is. Or I get into dreams and I how do I get into the work that I eventually became involved in the government?

Yeah, it's a lifelong story, actually. And I won't dwell on all the details, but I just have to go back to the beginning so I could, you know, I how far back can you go and, and maybe even a little further, but, dreams and unusual perceptions, were part of my, my childhood experience. I didn't think of them as too unusual at the time.

In fact, I was quite. I had a lot of dreams, I should say. I had frequent dreams. And when I tried to talk to them as a child, I'm kind of, you know, early, like 4 or 5, six years old. They weren't really one we talked about. So I just ignored them. I mean, I ignored talking about them.

I still kept dreaming and some of that work for this article. You know, I lived in a rural area to many visitors. There. And sometimes a dream that I have, information about an approaching visitor that I couldn't have anticipated. So that gave me an idea that dreams could provide information. Nobody was around then to say no, they couldn't.

So, I hadn't assumed that that's part of what I could do. And then I got away from that. You know, schooling and high school and college, and I didn't really pay a lot of attention to dreams. But one time, I think I was finishing my master's degree in physics, and, I just finished it, and I.

I felt that I needed to do something a little different, get away from all this technology stuff. So I went to the library. I was at Baltimore at the time, part of bone marrow and beautiful library. And, I go in there and just read something other than virtual. So I walked around and I kind of walk to the desk and there's a book lying there.

00;03;38;27 - 00;04;04;09
Unknown
I just grabbed it was I wanted to find another. This looks like, you know, and the book was on a couple shared ratio dreams. And I thought that was really unusual. It's first of all, dreams. Another time. Unusual dream. It was a vision novel, and I checked it out and I wasn't totally fascinated with this. I said, well, this is something I think I will look into sometime in, you know, next few years.

00;04;04;12 - 00;04;49;26
Unknown
And then put it aside. But it really jarred me, you know, here's this work I do right up to it, as if I'm looking for something to shift my attention from technology or total physics over into something more directly experiential and at once. Okay, so that that kept me going on that and interest in dreams. And of course, along the way I had, you know, intuitions and, synchronicities that kind of link to them, precognitive dreaming and, ultimately, I, became more deeply interested in, you know, altered perceptions and or abilities, particular law and intuition on, at one time.

00;04;49;29 - 00;05;15;10
Unknown
And this was during the Vietnam era, and I, I was, I had I had dirt about ten years in the aerospace industries in the Gemini program. And then I transferred to the government and took up a position as an analyst at a place called the Foreign Technology Division at Data Analyst, trying to determine what the Soviets might be doing in the next 5 or 10 years.

00;05;15;10 - 00;05;50;14
Unknown
And my job was involved in, forecasting our future systems. So I had the idea of always thinking about the future, and it fit my interest, and I guess my basic nature at the time, so that that was there in my background and foreground as well. But when I had a temporary assignment, was, FTD, you know, I was now moved to Oregon for a couple of years for part of the, you know, to do aircraft analysis in aircraft tactics evaluations.

00;05;50;17 - 00;06;15;23
Unknown
During, Southeast Asia conflicts. And I was there I learned stories how soldiers and pilots, you know, sometimes they would chat at the club and in aviation about these strange things that would happen. And they knew when to run away, when to turn. And, maneuver and schedule other something here more intuitive kind of known that.

00;06;15;23 - 00;07;02;26
Unknown
But I moved in on position assignments kind of interesting. And then I had my own involvement with, Australian Surf to try that. And I found some of I should know, known about and be able to bring it back and safely and, you know, not but that was an intuitive process I had how did I do that? So I came back from that really motivated to work into this whole field of USP intuition and of course, dream you like when I picked up two, so I wrote, I got, I got into looking into the Soviet literature more, and more beyond what my job description called for.

00;07;02;26 - 00;07;40;02
Unknown
I was looking into the psychological stuff, and I found papers on USP research in Soviet Union, and I thought that was interesting and summarized that and put it in a short paper and sent it forward. And commander, why didn't tell me? You keep following this topic, you know, so we see what's what's going on there. And then shortly thereafter, I visited the art organization as visited by of put off on the national tour, and they were doing what was called remote viewing research at the Stanford Research Institute.

00;07;40;05 - 00;08;06;24
Unknown
And I really hadn't heard a lot about that because my focus was on the foreign stuff. But here they are now, an organization, and they're looking for funding to continue the work that had initially been started by the CIA, but then dropped for political reasons. So I was brought in to the meeting, and since then, I guess I was the only expert who ends up asked for my opinion.

00;08;06;25 - 00;08;36;07
Unknown
Seemed kind of interesting in this certain down the line of interest I was developing, even though it was conscious state stuff and not only dreams. So I was appointed as a contract manager and became involved with, directly with interviewing, research that was going on at at Stanford was how rush, pulled off an emotional target eventually and it made came on board.

00;08;36;09 - 00;09;09;02
Unknown
So I got me into the field and, known con and transferred down to the Defense Intelligence Agency, Washington, DC, where I'm looking at this work and eventually became the director. And, the, the Army unit had been set up to do the military, operational work and that I was transferred to the Defense Intelligence Agency. And then I was moved up there to become the chief then of the unit for just a lot of years.

00;09;09;05 - 00;09;31;07
Unknown
And, since it was a special action program, we had to change code words, which is typical of security programs to, to keep track of who's this, what, where, when, and, I, I chose the name Stargate because I liked the sound of it, and it was not in the book that we were supposed to select from.

00;09;31;09 - 00;10;06;00
Unknown
So I had to write a memo to them, to the secretary, undersecretary of defense, and to get approval for this unusual and actually good sounding word compared to the ones you put in there. And it was approved. And that's how the term Stargate came into being, even though there were other code words for the program. And you probably heard about, some streaking girl flames, which this is sort of the last one and the one that seemed to be linked now with more, more often with the, the viewing activity there.

00;10;06;02 - 00;10;29;18
Unknown
But that was done for me. And then, of course, the program closed in 1995. Then I was able to go back to my dream world dramatically and know you continue on from there doing joint work with dreams, provocative dreams and, independent research. So that's, that's a long, maybe a short version and what I would normally tell you.

00;10;29;21 - 00;10;49;12
Unknown
So I'm sure you have bits and pieces you weren't dive in on. And I'm here to try to pick them up and go from there. Thanks. Yeah, that's really, really interesting. I mean, I love how, you know, you've always been a vivid dreamer and it seems like there's a wide range of experiments being done, you know, while you were working in this industry.

00;10;49;12 - 00;11;11;21
Unknown
And, I know you're still, you know, doing a lot of things on your own as well. What are some of the most compelling, you know, interesting stories about remote viewing or phenomenon that you've witnessed during this time? Yeah. Well, you know, so there's a lot of really interesting experiences, both from my personal stuff, that occurred before and after mine.

00;11;11;23 - 00;11;55;01
Unknown
Was the government, and remote viewing work, and even during that time frame, because I didn't abandon dream work, I just added to it to whatever else I was doing. And of course, afterwards. But I would say, I started doing, a focus on precognitive dreaming. I, I had had enough hints of them all along, but, after I retired, I decided to really focus on them, and I discovered that I could actually have dreams about future incidents that would be in the paper and that were very accurate.

00;11;55;03 - 00;12;23;21
Unknown
And I found this track of investigation, independent investigation for about a year, year and a half, that I decided to really make it more formal and set up an experiment with a colleague of mine in Florida. We did a control experiment, with, dreaming about a picture that would be on a certain page in a certain newspaper three days ahead of time and 5 or 7 days ahead.

00;12;23;24 - 00;13;08;01
Unknown
And we were successful with that. And yes, eventually it became published in England, in an American Institute of Physics conference proceedings that I presented on this at the Quantum, Retro Causation conference and was part of the American Association for the American Association of the Advancement of Sciences. Triple plans that met in San Diego, in 19 2017, I think it was so like, published in a physics publication and it that work is really made me think about the future or how can we do this?

00;13;08;01 - 00;13;29;19
Unknown
How can anybody this is just me and my colleague. But, you know, you look around, you see, it's all over the place when you really start talking to people. Well, just think about that. I am I asked a dream conscious, and freak out. Isn't that the material there that comes out? So you know that that is a very vivid illustration to.

00;13;29;19 - 00;14;00;25
Unknown
I asked members about about disability and dreaming. An unknown picture might be in a sealed envelope or it might be in the future. So thought later. So, yeah. So those were startling things for me to see. And then when I did this more, independently. Yeah, I found out some of the more spectacular dreams, and I really wasn't seeking them, other than, you know, desire to have a dream about an interesting event that occurred.

00;14;00;25 - 00;14;31;12
Unknown
And next week. But, you know, you have to be really tight about the parameters because you could dream about everything around you financially. But I wanted to be really specific. And some of these were, an example was the Columbia explosion, the I mean, the reentry apartment with the blew up that burned up during reentry. And 2002, that that dream was really, really quite vivid.

00;14;31;12 - 00;15;02;25
Unknown
And, that was five years ahead of time when that accident, that tragedy actually occurred. So that was one really starting example. There were others like that. But and again, that came from into the future, where I would get some indication foundation from the newspaper or the media. So that and and one that had to do with the, the nuclear almost nuclear meltdown in Japan.

00;15;02;28 - 00;15;27;22
Unknown
That also came, a very vivid dream. An interesting thing about that one. It was it was presented as a TV program in a dream. So here I'm dreaming in. I'm not quite lucid, although I college, I think it, I recall it semi lucid. So I'm there in this dream and all of a sudden this very large screen TV.

00;15;27;22 - 00;15;59;25
Unknown
Come on in the dream, I don't have a large dream, large screen TV. So, in this large screen TV is a commentator and is showing a map, radiation profiles. Well, with, drifting toward us, and we we're known to have words like state alert, alert, and had a terrible thing. You would find on, on the Weather Channel, people saying, we on the alert for their tornado or something.

00;15;59;28 - 00;16;32;02
Unknown
So it was a very dramatic and, you know, somewhat frightening thing, wasn't it? Was not a comfortable dream to have that new threat, radiation coming into the country. It didn't show exactly what the cause was. It just showed it came from the Far East somewhere. Don't. This radiation belt, So all I could do was record it, and, I have a friend who works in weather who is retired officer.

00;16;32;05 - 00;16;55;22
Unknown
That was in the one of the groups in the Air Force. And she had contacted me around the same time and send it. And we we exchanged dreams for our time, and she she explained she had not been to only it had to do with, huge waves and, somehow outs an army and she thought it would be the end of Japan.

00;16;55;25 - 00;17;35;16
Unknown
So that was the two inputs, mine and hers. And then, actually a month later, that event happened in Japan. She had the more specific, you know, I had the, the radiation aspect. And that map which I saw in the dream was, ocean and Jack's replica, one that appeared in the USA today when it was evident that the were measurable, radiation fallout from that disaster that was drifting across the U.S. so that that was a very, very dramatic situation.

00;17;35;18 - 00;17;59;23
Unknown
So, you know, I just there's a lot of of dreams, maybe not that dramatic, but but that allowed me to see that our dreaming minds can really, really pick up future situations like this. Not not just nationally critical things like that, but even at the personal level, as we all know, are being managed members.

00;17;59;24 - 00;18;24;11
Unknown
It's really, really pretty much what our experiences are with through challenging dreams. So but at a professional level, they help me actually avoid difficulties. So until I actually do have in your hip pocket, you know, you have a dream about doing this or not doing that, and it turns out to be the best thing that you could done.

00;18;24;13 - 00;18;49;13
Unknown
You could have done or not done for that day. One one example was when when I became involved with as a director of the remote viewing unit, and for me, I'm working a, an active remote viewer. I'm going to say I even could have been. But, you know, I was there as a as a chief and, but I was concerned about all the people.

00;18;49;15 - 00;19;22;19
Unknown
So I had a very strong feeling about the people there, you know, that they were okay and weren't the only issue in their lives that might affect what we were doing or whatever. But one time when one night I had this dream and I'm not intending to have a out or any kind of psychic dream, where one of the individuals in, in, in the unit is represented as a dream figure.

00;19;22;21 - 00;19;52;20
Unknown
And, I was an officer and so it was in the morning in the dream, come to the office under my desk and, shortly thereafter, this individual comes in, and, suddenly falls on the floor at the coffeepot and just kind of rolls over, screaming in agony. So, recalling his gut every, you know, what kind of dream is this?

00;19;52;23 - 00;20;17;25
Unknown
So I go to the office the next day, I look around at this, early I wanted to get to earlier that day, and, of course, he's not there yet. And I said, well, I'm going to really look foolish if I say anything about this, but I did ask the one of the administrators to give me a list of telephone numbers of the emergency rooms around here.

00;20;17;27 - 00;20;41;18
Unknown
And, fortunately, we lived not we were not far away from the the base hospital. So I got that number and I'm ready to go in. And she asked me, why do you want this? I want this number. I said, well, this is the end of this is the time every year when we update our files and emergency numbers, did you forget to.

00;20;41;20 - 00;21;05;20
Unknown
So I didn't really tell it where I wanted them. So anyway, so I'm there and in comes this work colleague and I'm just knocking the room. There he is at the coffee bar and plops over on the floor. So it's rolling around and holy is God screaming in agony. Oh, but I'm calm. I have the phone number. I, I call the, emergency number.

00;21;05;20 - 00;21;32;23
Unknown
And then there are moments in the marriage that come in, so everybody's is just having a glance, a kidney stone from them. So. So that's what it was. It wasn't serious, but, you know, it sure looks serious. He was it was certainly not comfortable for him, but it illustrates clearly here is a situation that is I have no way of knowing about.

00;21;32;25 - 00;21;59;08
Unknown
And he probably doesn't either if he didn't have any symptoms, until I got on board, you know, stone in him and and this is in about 6 or 7 hours at a time. And, when the dream occurred. So that's the kind of thing that happens. And I've had, you know, others like that, too, but that that was the most troubling because I actually had somebody get a telephone number.

00;21;59;10 - 00;22;24;21
Unknown
And even though I didn't tell them why, and that's they knew that was kind of odd for anybody to do it. But I found an I needed to have that telephone number. That's funny. That's so incredible. I mean, it's it's insane and interesting how, you know, dreams are just this powerful tool that we have. And I definitely want to get into, you know, how we can all strengthen these abilities and work on our psi abilities.

00;22;24;21 - 00;22;51;02
Unknown
So we will talk about that. But first, I wanted to ask you one thing just about terminology. Because I know there's a lot of confusion on it. Can you help me differentiate between the project Stargate and the gateway process? Stargate is totally, totally different. I like the government name. The name, the icon church a lot of part of the remote viewing activity, and for me, has nothing to do with the Monroe Institute.

00;22;51;05 - 00;23;32;20
Unknown
No. Early on in the program, the individuals that were members of the Ford media, they had a different code word at the time. Not certainly not Stargate, but there were some early members of the group when it first began, or 1979, 1980. They did attend a a program at Monroe, mainly managing, I understand, getting into a relaxed state, that kind of thing, which had nothing to do with it, developing a remote viewing ability in fact, Monroe didn't do that at all.

00;23;32;20 - 00;24;06;09
Unknown
He he was strictly into his procedure and having anybody come in there to achieve this, this level of, I've forgotten to take the gateway turned ascetic all the way up for number 2021. But, how did achieve those levels of, perception, altered state, but there's not part of the program. The remote viewer throughout the people offered me some of the money to earn their own nickel.

00;24;06;12 - 00;24;51;11
Unknown
So there's no, no connection at all. There may have been early on, some higher level interest commanders, but we did not do not really develop in link with them after that. No. In many later years in fact, two years ago, the International Remote Viewing Association had a combined conference with the Monroe Group that Charlottesville, Virginia. So this is probably the first time we really got together, and had a chance to discussion the things, that may have happened in the early years, but no, it's no never totally different.

00;24;51;13 - 00;25;13;02
Unknown
Gateway is briefly the Monroe and Stargate is only the remote viewing unit that Ford made to of the of years. Gotcha. I appreciate that clarification, because I know I get that question a lot. So, you know, I know that this consciousness research is regaining popularity in the last ten years, and I know it's just the beginning of what we're capable of discovering.

00;25;13;04 - 00;25;49;13
Unknown
But, you know, people are starting to research it again. And even after Stargate was declassified, do you think that, world governments in general are still studying these kinds of things? Is there funding for it? I think after the program was closed, there was so much publicity. Not all very good either. The the rationale for closing it, is based on a review of a selected scientific panel, and it was known that some of them had a connection with a known, British, organization.

00;25;49;13 - 00;26;16;06
Unknown
So it was sort of biased from the very beginning. And it didn't even work at all. The really good material, the early in the program. So, so there were issues in selectivity and, and then of course, press came out from that report. It's closed because of for them, the program yielded no, no useful data. There was nothing there was no good, which is totally not true.

00;26;16;09 - 00;26;44;17
Unknown
And and I know you talked about some of those examples, but so the labs was a bad thing. And it sure scared people away. That might have an interest in continuing it somewhere. But there was also other practical issues involved. Where would you actually have such a program? And we were lucky. We had a good umbrella, with the intelligence organization that we had the.

00;26;44;17 - 00;27;13;23
Unknown
But the projects we got into were pretty widespread. You know, we were called homeland security issues. We were doing FBI. Well, not FBI, but, Secret Service, other kinds of links when it related to somebody like International Fugitive, certainly not a U.S. individual. So, we got into those things and that doesn't really fall on it didn't really fall under the charter of the Defense Intelligence Agency.

00;27;14;00 - 00;27;43;17
Unknown
So these problems, where would you put this kind of activity? So I don't think now today that this problems have gone away. In fact, it probably would be a lot worse now. But, I really title abuse and what government does. So I think I, I think the interest is there, I think there's enough publicity. And, you know, the internet has really been a tremendous boost for, for all of this, obviously.

00;27;43;19 - 00;28;13;23
Unknown
And, people are becoming more open, more conferences. It's more information. It's it shows that they the good points, the, the ones that really project that make it yield, significant data. Getting out into the open. And I think that is going to attract people to pay more attention. And I think individuals in different organizations might even be attending development courses.

00;28;13;26 - 00;28;49;02
Unknown
Whether they be on the dream side or the remote viewing. So I know a number of programs available to do that. That's happening at an individual level. And I think those individuals will probably, act in their organization, contributing in some way using these talents. It may be really limited in use or visibility. One of the lessons we learned was just you can't be too visible on this because the press will do all kinds of crazy things.

00;28;49;07 - 00;29;22;08
Unknown
Some of it is good, some of it is not good. And managers don't like this kind of publicity. And government people up for funding don't like it either, because it's always that block or that element of individuals that would really object to this, if they knew it was going on anyway. And we had to dodge a lot of issues like that where individuals can have a really strong negative opinion, begin to interfere with them or, or chain of command.

00;29;22;08 - 00;29;54;29
Unknown
And our finance chain really had a difficulty in some cases mitigating or negative input. But we were able to do it and we survived 20 or so years. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. There's there's still so much stigma and skepticism around psi phenomena in general and parapsychology and, you know, lucidity, gaming, not so much anymore because, you know, we have obvious electrophysiological markers for lucid dreaming, and it's more accepted by the scientific community.

00;29;54;29 - 00;30;15;29
Unknown
But there's still reputable journals that are hesitant to publish certain things if it veers, you know, too much towards skepticism. So do you think that remote viewing is more difficult for the average person to learn and practice? And how does that differ from, being able to research it as opposed to, you know, lucid dreaming research?

00;30;16;01 - 00;30;46;14
Unknown
I think the, I just emerged something came on here. I want to get rid of this. So there was some ad that you, know, I, I think the. Yeah, the way, the way remote viewing began at Stanford Research Institute in, in 1972, 73, 74. We really didn't have a very extensive protocol. It was a very natural kind of approach.

00;30;46;19 - 00;31;17;06
Unknown
You just sit down, relax. It's such objective. And, go from there and allow your subconscious mind to perceive the desired information, keywords to get your conscious thoughts out of the way. And, and that's tough to do. But, you know, maybe that's where the Monroe practices came in handy. So, that aspect of remote viewing, if you stay with that definition and that perspective, it's not that difficult to do.

00;31;17;08 - 00;31;46;15
Unknown
And, you know, now, later on, when the protocols developed, it looked like it would be more extensive and more difficult and longer to do, and it probably is, but you're still end up ultimately achieving reliable remote viewing results. And in experimental setups. So I guess what I'm saying is it's not only difficult, it depends on how you conceive of it, what message you want to take.

00;31;46;18 - 00;32;15;07
Unknown
And really how much effort you're going to put into it, whether it would be, you know, practice sessions or focus groups and going over and over if you really understanding the process and how your perceptions correlate with ground truth. So the objective is it's a lot of work but shows everything else. And now in Dreamwork, you know, maybe I'm biased here.

00;32;15;09 - 00;32;43;25
Unknown
But I really do think it's easier. I really do think dreamwork is easier. Yeah. Because they're it's a matter that you set your objective. And I want to remember message. People are not familiar with it. Well, if not, it's just fucking hard. And then then you go to the next step. Now, tonight, don't dream about the picture that's in a sealed envelope or the area where my colleague is visiting at this moment.

00;32;43;25 - 00;33;12;14
Unknown
And, you know, at 10:00 tomorrow morning. Well, you do that enough times and you find it's not that difficult either. And of course, to step into lucid dreaming, you know, all of them. Doctor Wolfram, where are you today? And I want here. And those that preceded them know these basic steps. So I'm saying it's not that difficult to if you move into the dreams, lucid dreaming.

00;33;12;16 - 00;33;49;00
Unknown
And then, tag on the precognitive brain and then I, I don't do workshops anymore. I've other activities going on. Take my time. But, years ago, I did workshops where I blended both the dream side, and I call it the night side of SA, never viewing or conscious direction. And, you know, I, I found that most of the people actually preferred initially being coming in contact with the side through the dream side.

00;33;49;03 - 00;34;15;14
Unknown
That just felt more comfortable, I think partly because they could do it at home and, Page so that might have been a factor here. They didn't have to sit in front of somebody or have some instructor evaluate them later. They could do a self evaluation separately. So I probably was probably why either way. I'm saying that it's not that a difficult it really isn't difficult.

00;34;15;14 - 00;34;34;11
Unknown
It might be just what is it you want to do with it, what degree of accuracy you are, what are your objectives? And, the way I did my workshops was I kind of left it up to the individuals where they wanted to go. But my, my objective was this is this is something that you can use in your own life.

00;34;34;13 - 00;35;10;23
Unknown
That's period. That's it. You know, you don't have to go beyond that. But you can if you want. You know, if you have goals to work as a psychic detective, then move on to that. But, don't go there that somebody else can do that. So my colleagues, work in that direction. So but with the goal of what can you do in my own life and life and my loved ones, people around me, I think it's going to be really easy to do and more easily understood and charitable when we move in that direction.

00;35;10;25 - 00;35;34;26
Unknown
One of the things I made the case for years ago and still do, I, you know, go look, look at all these school shootings. Well, it may be a national model, not a lot, but it will. Clearly, there are. Why wouldn't parents and children, you know, a day or two before these tragic events not have, a warning, not have a pre-covered ruling about that?

00;35;34;28 - 00;36;15;20
Unknown
Certainly the word. But and I'm sure they are having it happen, but they're not discussed or not reported. Nobody knows in. So here you have a potential. Oh, you can actually help out. Parents can help. And children, for their own safety by being open to dreams. And when one that comes up in them in their dream life that has iconic, foreboding land distribution, caution taken, and, I think if this is considered seriously over a period of time, this could be another alert system that we all can do.

00;36;15;24 - 00;36;52;05
Unknown
Parents and children. It's just like the epiphany, incidentally. Well, back in that 50s and 60s and then the flood of precognitive information that existed before that tragic event will not huge mountain of coastline help over 100. I think only 20 children in that school and and the dreams that occurred that were actually recorded or told others by the children that died, and also parents before, you know, that they were real dreams, that they just never acted.

00;36;52;07 - 00;37;27;13
Unknown
So, and, you know, along that line, the terrorist attacks, in a were possible. And I just still vividly remember that siege CNN program. It was a news program that interviewed one of the, the survivor, one of the people who died in the, you know, Aurora building and in Oklahoma, about two decades ago, the late 1998, I think.

00;37;27;15 - 00;37;59;03
Unknown
And the interview was really interesting. Is, is at a memorial and, maybe six months later after the tragedy, and her husband had perished in that, and, she, she really mournful, of course. And then, she goes on to tell her reporter that if she only had acted, if she only acted because her husband had this dream about not going to the office that day, because he saw it engulfed in flames and fire, and she said, no, you're going to be late.

00;37;59;03 - 00;38;20;01
Unknown
You got to go. So, you know, that's just one story. And then then there are those who are 911. And I keep going on that one too. But here you have this tremendous potentially and not possible have that had that dream was not a member of a she didn't even know anything about dreams. It's this is probably before their organization was even established.

00;38;20;04 - 00;38;47;16
Unknown
But but nevertheless they are and people have them in you know ASG considered and it has been promoting this package now and you I'm going to promote it to them. That part of dreaming that allows us to peak at any time and keep ourselves out of trouble. Yeah, precognitive dreams are truly fascinating and it happens so often. I mean, it's really important, like you said, to normalize dream sharing.

00;38;47;16 - 00;39;11;10
Unknown
So we can really, you know, talk about this more normalized telling people when we have certain dreams and we can use this data, you know, in a more efficient way. I do think it's a heavy responsibility to, you know, feel like it's something preventable. If you had the dream, maybe that's not necessarily the case. You know, maybe it can help us be emotionally prepared or you know, maybe, act a certain way that day.

00;39;11;10 - 00;39;35;15
Unknown
But I don't necessarily think that, you know, one person should feel like they have the responsibility to stop a natural disaster, you know? So there's that as well. That comes up a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. You're not going to stop the natural disasters, but you can certainly begin keeping yourself and loved ones out of harm's way.

00;39;35;18 - 00;40;10;10
Unknown
And it may be in time. That will change and that it will be a system developed, even in local networks. For example, I tried to set up something like that years ago, but became too time consuming to really carry forward with. But I think it's potential, and I think with the internet, because I started my idea before the really big search of the internet, now it's so different in terms of how we can coordinate and collect data and analyze it.

00;40;10;12 - 00;40;41;06
Unknown
And we're much, much better positioned to do this kind of thing. So maybe another time to take another look at this. Yeah. You know, groups in cities that do this and for that area, I know my basic idea at the time was to certain metropolitan areas or any area, you have a group of dreamers get together. And the objective is within the next week or two.

00;40;41;06 - 00;41;01;03
Unknown
So anything that this community needs to know about that would be about potentially dangerous and potentially preventable, and that would be the key here, potentially preventable, because then that might filter out the ones you actually can do nothing about.

00;41;01;06 - 00;41;22;05
Unknown
True. Yeah. And it can even help with the emotional impact. And I think you're right. That's great. And if people in positions of power start to take dreams more seriously, then you know, more can be done and less weight is on the individual, I think, and even with, you know, remote viewing research and things like that, what kind of ethical considerations are there, especially when researching dreams as well?

00;41;22;08 - 00;41;43;05
Unknown
Or any privacy concerns or potential things to look out for that we need to keep in mind as we explore these other dimensions. Oh, certainly. And I think it's a great thing. And, you know, in, in a remote viewing community and in the International Remote Viewing Association we established a long time ago a strict code of ethics.

00;41;43;05 - 00;42;06;00
Unknown
In fact, I hate to admit it, I'm barred that from the HD files and just simply banned it in the world viewing community. So yeah, but we certainly have that on the books. As far as an organization is concerned, you know, individually we have no control over the individuals, but it should be part of all the training that goes on, you know, be alert to assets.

00;42;06;00 - 00;42;34;29
Unknown
Yeah. And it's not just how you treat the data, you know, it's or others. It's how do you interpret it too, because you're always going to have clear interpretations. So the message part is be cautious and just don't jump the gun, so to speak, with a particular, interpretation of what my which would you suspect is a precognitive dream?

00;42;35;01 - 00;42;59;09
Unknown
It, as you know, in Dreamwork could be symbolic. It could be something else. And in remote viewing, it tends not to be that symbolic, because we strive for the more literally accurate part of perception. But there's still elements of interpretation that can do it. And I don't think one is timing. Okay. If you, if it removes or perceives some incident.

00;42;59;11 - 00;43;36;13
Unknown
Yeah. Let's call it a terrorist attack in Boston. I just grabbed one out of the air here. So the question is, okay, but you, your imagery or your perception seem to suggest. But now where and when, you know, you can can you narrow down. So this is the challenge, you know, how do you go from a generic concept or a perception of a threat to making it actually useful and actionable, or at least to the point where, you can be cautious about it and be more alert so that that's a, that's a real challenge here.

00;43;36;13 - 00;44;16;13
Unknown
And then we're still wrestling with that, in the remote viewing community. Definitely. So and I think in the future that they would be showing if you seek to apply it more directly, that and the nature that goes with it, what would be tell people and how do you tell them? And in 19 Dreamwork, sometimes the perception is there if you're doing a therapeutic session, and you get a perception, a dream, you may or may not want to directly related to the person you're working with.

00;44;16;16 - 00;44;45;16
Unknown
Yeah. It will be too much to bear the time. It might be another way to deal with it. So, and or disguise the impact somehow. But just to get the idea across, so, you know, there's a lot of issues here and strategies and escalation in behavior, and you know, so some people, you know, I think some people can use a little bit of ego control, my personal feeling, honestly.

00;44;45;17 - 00;45;14;11
Unknown
But that's another matter. But, you know, that happens in anything that you develop an ability in, something to go overboard a little bit. And, that's the key word is balance. And I think was it was a good grounding or good solid basis in reality because you have to come back to that and you know, for that for grounding or.

00;45;14;13 - 00;45;38;12
Unknown
Yeah, I think that's a new word, but I like it. And just being in nature and, you know, relaxing in nature and work around and a great way to, to calm down and get back to this reality. So, I don't know. So you make better judgment. What came out of the alternate spaces where. Yes, true. That's great advice.

00;45;38;12 - 00;45;58;06
Unknown
And I wanted to ask you, you know, as a lucid dreaming coach, I love asking people about their lucid dreams. So I have to put that in there. What's your lucid dreaming frequency like these days? And maybe if you feel called to share one of your favorite, most memorable lucid dreams, well, I know she'll conjure up in project work.

00;45;58;07 - 00;46;27;14
Unknown
Really don't. My dream world is a little low right now, but, prior to the project, I caught up. And right now, yeah, I sure did have lucid dreams. And some of them, you know, are kind of in the middle between lucidity and some ideas, trying to think of the best ones. That I've had recently.

00;46;27;16 - 00;47;00;28
Unknown
Oh, God. I haven't thought about this for a while, but, I think I think, yeah. Well, I I'm gonna have to go back to the project work. When when I was caught up in, in, in a research project, while I was just starting out or actually, before I was transferred there, I was assigned to a search team that went to Italy to look for a U.S. general.

00;47;00;29 - 00;47;38;04
Unknown
I was abducted by a terrorist group. And so, there was a search team to, technically to coordinate all kinds of information and including, remote viewing, although that wasn't made too explicit at the time. I was doing other things, but. So I'm there, looking at all the other data that were getting, and then also coordinating remote viewing data visible from the Ford meet unit.

00;47;38;06 - 00;48;02;17
Unknown
But during that time, the communication system locked up and we couldn't get that did. So, I'm kind of on my own. So I decided, well, I know I can lucid dream, I can dream, I can have precognitive dreams. I'm going to if I can have a dream about terrorists. Where is the general? Okay. And because that was a big issue issue, where can we find a general?

00;48;02;19 - 00;48;28;28
Unknown
And then lucid dreams began that actually, you know, they're so real as, like, I was walking around looking at the general in the place where he was held captive and actually observing the captors. And, you know, we were very specific detail, including the fact that there were movement. There may be 1 or 2, certainly one and maybe two.

00;48;29;01 - 00;49;04;11
Unknown
And the search team had not even suspected there would be females involved in the subduction, which later on that we learned they were there were two women involved in the the vividness of that dream. It really represented what they looked like. And the strange situation that the general was in, which was inside a tent inside an apartment building, what's what's the probability of having a lucid dream that has a tent inside an apartment building?

00;49;04;13 - 00;49;35;23
Unknown
So those were really stunning. And as I learned much later on after the journal was actually rescue, and I was able to talk with him. So that was a one that was really, really quite powerful for me. In later life, I often think about that incident, but, lucid dreams are really quite vivid to where I think I'm really there on the scene, looking at this and doing that.

00;49;35;25 - 00;49;57;16
Unknown
That so just just one, one, one example. Yeah. That's incredible. So, you know, I hear a lot of people talk about this a lot to do. You think there's sometimes overlap between what's considered a lucid dream and what's considered you know, out-of-body experience or astral projection, because it seems like you could have maybe been both. You were seeing something and you were dreaming.

00;49;57;19 - 00;50;37;07
Unknown
Yeah. Well, then that came up some years ago. That exact thing. And in fact, it to do with something was at the, and, It's not as that one the. Yeah. I received this just a day or two before I received an email announcing a conference deadline for papers. And this, so the dream that occurs, I had earlier set up a, a practice target.

00;50;37;10 - 00;51;04;28
Unknown
Not necessarily for lucid, but just for anything. I was like to have around you know, sometimes I feel like, okay, tonight, tonight I'm going to sleep. I have a dream about that picture that's in that I don't know, because I don't know what that picture is. I know it's like to somehow. So right before this, email comes in, which actually talked about lucid dreaming, so near here is to two days before I get the email.

00;51;05;01 - 00;51;28;20
Unknown
I have a lucid dream and the sort of preamble to the email, but in the lucid dream, I, I'm lucid and this is, you know, it's sort of a blackness. And then I get through that and and oh my goodness, I'm dreaming. What am I going to do? So I thought, well, I remembered there's a target picture somewhere.

00;51;28;22 - 00;51;59;10
Unknown
So I said, okay, well I'm here, I'm going to see if I can dream in this lucid dream about that, that picture. And then all of a sudden there's a scene in. Now, in retrospect, I couldn't tell that that was a lucid dream or experience because everything was so real, so vivid, but but angry. I during the dream, I walk over to somebody lying on the ground and top the individual to wake the individual up.

00;51;59;13 - 00;52;18;22
Unknown
Yeah. And you just pull off a little. I can't move, I can't move it. Nothing moves. So this would make me think this is really narrow, this dream. I can't I can't change anything. So then I shifted to something else. All right, so I take a look at, find a friend of mine that lived in Africa. Then that is really incredible.

00;52;18;22 - 00;52;49;26
Unknown
Vivid seeing of this African shadow and a couple of other places. I came back, woke up eventually from that combination of lucidity and, obesity type of perception. And later that day I checked the target picture and it really showed somebody lying on the ground, with a with a kind of a stick around. So one odd dream that I had figured was actually accurate.

00;52;49;29 - 00;53;21;26
Unknown
And the odd thing about the whole dream, I couldn't change the nature of that image in a dream. So it makes me wonder if that's a general perception that in my dreams, that the imagery is going to remain more fixed than it is in a typical lucid dream. Or was it because it was an object type dream where, the features landscape seems to be more fixed than it is in lucid dreams?

00;53;21;28 - 00;53;49;20
Unknown
So sure. So arguments go is the other end of the lucid dreaming spectrum. Maybe that's true, but I tend to think it's something entirely different. There's something more firm about the environment, and the experience for the oobe experience than it is for the typical lucid dream. So, sure, my viewpoint on that. Yeah. Interesting. I mean, there's so many nuances and consciousness experiences are such a spectrum.

00;53;49;20 - 00;54;10;01
Unknown
So, you know, hopefully people don't let terminology hold them back. But, you know, it is cool to to figure out what the differences are and compare experiences. If people want to learn more about just experiments and the research out there, you know, any good journal or organizations that you really recommend people diving deep into to learn more about this kind of stuff?

00;54;10;03 - 00;54;37;27
Unknown
Of course I'm a strong advocate of whatever IHT does. You know, here's a great organization, in reading learn about dreams, that's for sure. And so that's my number one choice. And of course, the Remote Viewing Association or.org is a great, great, great place for improving viewing and other organizations to meet homeless students. And also the IMC Institute Nordics.

00;54;37;27 - 00;55;13;03
Unknown
I also another tremendous place in society for scientific exploration. I see it as national music online conference coming up there as well. And the Parapsychology Association. Well, in connection with with the Russian Research Institute, the at during that time there organization back in 20 1037 established or founded by JB Ryan. Yeah. And ESP world. Cars is a hard approach to identify ESP effects.

00;55;13;05 - 00;55;53;01
Unknown
So the Orion Research Center, of course, is a great sources to have teaching programs. Or now the International Remote Viewing Association has an overhead program that's available online. And I c I am constantly having programs slip through the internet here that I can see and I'm sure and, and in the conferences there are abundant and available just so much and I'm in a, in a certain local groups, in your area, as well sort of search around and in internet.

00;55;53;03 - 00;56;29;25
Unknown
I've run into them and, and can join up with some of them that I want the study groups around. So and I'm sure they focus on different aspects of the phenomenon. And some be totally dreamwork. It may be totally related to the personal things or maybe not so much a side part in on the first viewing groups, self-help groups, there are all kinds of groups like this around the November see, me just move around from one to the other to see what resonates with you.

00;56;29;27 - 00;56;46;27
Unknown
And yes, true, there's so many communities out there and so much research out there, you know? And you, what about your book and, you know, the things you're working on? I know that you're still very active with workshops and talks and things. So where can people find you if they want to, you know, read about your stuff?

00;56;47;00 - 00;57;23;22
Unknown
Yeah. Well, I'm still not sure I'll have a website. You know, my email address. Martin viewer, Dale craft.com. You have to be contacted there. So, sure, I can answer questions frequently with people, send an email, and I'm more than happy to do that. Yeah. So, that's there and I do give lectures, presentations frequently. And I'll be a speaker at the upcoming, International Viewing Association conference in Alamogordo.

00;57;23;25 - 00;57;46;07
Unknown
I should call in October and also be a speaker. Kind of an interesting venue in Charlottesville, Virginia, in August. It's called PSI games, soccer games, and it's focused on more the fun aspect of the phenomenon. We don't want to forget that. No, no, no, I should be totally serious about this stuff and and have fun with it.

00;57;46;07 - 00;58;16;16
Unknown
To play games with it and or have games and, use that as a part of the experiment protocol and then see how well they do compared to somebody else's. So sort of like what we do in ASD conferences when we have, the dream telepathy or the precognitive dream contest, during the conference or when we get up and look at the results, toward the end of the ball, the dream is, is always interesting things and fun to do.

00;58;16;18 - 00;58;52;13
Unknown
So. Yeah. So there, there are those, things going on and, gosh, just so much and I, I would like to keep up with Gordon, but I'm being flooded out right now with things to do and places to go. So, but it's all very good. And I think it's, it's helping open up the, the overall picture of not just the one aspect of our nature, but the, of course, our Green line dreaming much to me, a huge area, but also the, the remote viewing state, too.

00;58;52;16 - 00;59;22;14
Unknown
So bringing the two together would really, really advocate do it. And I have been doing that in my life. So it's fun to go from nothing today, not knowing that, you know, neither mode. You may have a perception that's quite, relevant in, in, in awake state. It may be a strong intuition or my favorite term, synchronicity.

00;59;22;14 - 01;00;04;27
Unknown
And I think that it the whole field of, precognition. The ability to perceive information in the future is in, in a dream or, an awake intention to have a remote viewing task or jacket. Now, I think that that is a very important aspect of developing. Yeah, yeah. That's wonderful. I really appreciate all the work you're doing and, and the foundation you've laid and, all the research and, and just your passion for consciousness studies and dreams in general, it's much appreciated.

01;00;04;27 - 01;00;28;20
Unknown
And I know that the next few generations are going to, honor that work and, and continue the path. So thank you so much for chatting with me. And, you know, allowing me to to spread the message. I, I'm to thank you very much and try to help out.