EP101: Dream Data & Digital Frontiers: The Ethics of Dream Technology

In this dynamic roundtable episode of The Dream World Podcast, we gather a brilliant group of dream researchers, lucid dreamers, and creatives—many working at Ken Paller's lab at Northwestern University—to explore the cutting edge of dream science and neurotechnology. From lucid dreaming induction tools to AI integration and the ethical dilemmas of dream data, this conversation covers the promise and the peril of our rapidly evolving relationship with sleep and consciousness.

Topics include:

• How researchers are experimenting with Galantamine, EEG devices, and dream stimulation
• The pros and cons behind dream advertising
• Concerns around dream data privacy and commercialization
• AI in dream tech and the metaphysical implications
• Lucid dreaming for healing, creativity, and even “dream tweeting” from inside REM

Whether you're a seasoned oneironaut or simply curious where dream science is heading, this episode will blow your mind and raise big questions about the future of consciousness research.

Guest Links: 

Karen Konkoly

Dashiell Bark-Huss

Saelyx Finna  

Gabriela Torres Platas

Daniel Morris

Transcript

Welcome to the Dream World podcast. This is my baby. My project, as you guys know. But it's really important to me to, like, bring people on and have, like, more group conversations. And you guys have such a great group of people to talk to. For those who don't know, we have a couple a group here of dream researchers and enthusiasts here with me, and I'm really excited to chat with you guys. We have a lot of cool topics to get into about what's going on in the world of dream research and the world of technology around dreams. And you know what's in the future. And you guys are really in on, you know, what's going on. And,
my name is Amina, and I've been lucid dreaming my whole life. And now I'm getting into, like, talking about dreams. I think it's really cool to get into the research on dreams. I have a background in psychology.

00:00:56:05 - 00:01:03:03
Unknown
But for the most part, I'm just like in the community talking about lucid dreaming and, like, sharing my knowledge. So that's my quick intro.

00:01:03:03 - 00:01:13:14
Unknown
I'm Dash dash archives. I got interested in lucid dreaming in college. I taught myself to dream so that I could eat junk food while I was on a diet.

00:01:13:16 - 00:01:34:12
Unknown
It got me interested in, just like, things beyond junk food. After after I was able to, was able to successfully learn to lucid dream. And I got really interested in using technology to communicate from lucid dreams, and to enhance lucid dreams. And I started working on this project,

00:01:34:12 - 00:01:42:05
Unknown
like in 2012, of trying to communicate from a dream using technology.

00:01:42:08 - 00:01:45:00
Unknown
It's evolved a little bit over the years.

00:01:45:00 - 00:01:48:14
Unknown
I've, like, gotten close to, like, kind of making it work.

00:01:48:14 - 00:02:04:10
Unknown
I this is kind of getting into really specifics. Okay. I like technology and lucid dreaming. I'm also, guinea pig in a lot of the the research at northwestern, and I'm. And I work, on some projects with, some of the northwestern people as well.

00:02:04:13 - 00:02:11:00
Unknown
Yeah, I love it. I love the specifics, by the way. I wish we could dive into everybody's story, but we'll kind of touch on a lot of things. So it's okay.

00:02:11:00 - 00:02:27:09
Unknown
Well, I'm Gabriella, and, I, I was very interested. Well, I studied neuroscience, and I'll. I'm doing research on dreaming, and I was, very interested in, meditation and what meditation can do for your mental health.

00:02:27:09 - 00:02:28:24
Unknown
And then,

00:02:28:24 - 00:02:29:14
Unknown
got

00:02:29:14 - 00:02:46:29
Unknown
to know more about the dream world. And then I got very interested about what you can do in a meditation during a dream state. So, this is what I'm doing at northwestern, and I'm working, with, all these amazing people one way or another. Yeah.

00:02:47:15 - 00:03:07:02
Unknown
Love it, love it. Okay. I'm Karen. I always have love lucid dreaming. I started lucid dreaming in college and was like, oh my gosh, I would be lucid dreaming researcher. So I tried to do a bunch of sleep research and ended up in Caterpillar's lab doing lucid dreaming communication for my. And that's what I'm still doing.

00:03:07:02 - 00:03:11:27
Unknown
Hi, I'm Daniel, and I'm also a PhD student in Ken Tyler's lab.

00:03:11:29 - 00:03:32:07
Unknown
And I actually kind of got to this lab, by, through Karen. So that's why I wanted her to go first. And so I actually started lucid dreaming. And when I was younger, like, in middle school. And for me, it was just a passion. And I would, like, go on all these forums and try all of the challenges and have a pen pal and keep all of my diary.

00:03:32:07 - 00:03:43:23
Unknown
So for me, it was like a personal passion before I discovered that it could also be a career opportunity. So now I'm trying to make both of those things work. And yeah, looking forward to discussing it more.

00:03:43:23 - 00:03:58:21
Unknown
Cool. And I'm Salix for now. I have been fascinating with, I've been fascinated with dreaming and sort of, you know, laboratory for exploring the nature of consciousness since I was an adolescent.

00:03:58:24 - 00:04:26:28
Unknown
But I want a different route and into the dreaming with your eyes open form of making art and film. And, so I'm a filmmaker, and I'm working on a film about, the kind of emergence of dream neurotechnology in this time and place that we live in that culturally doesn't value dreaming in the same way that, other cultures and other times in human history have.

00:04:26:29 - 00:04:48:20
Unknown
So kind of looking at what does it mean that technology is getting closer and closer to our private inner worlds, in our time and place. And I've been, fortunate to get to do a little bit of play and filming with Josh and Karen, and I'm talking with, Daniel and Gabby about doing it with them at northwestern.

00:04:48:20 - 00:05:05:09
Unknown
So it's super fun. And you, Ameena. Yeah. Let's get let's get the, you know, lucid dream story in the movie, I love it. Yeah, I would totally I'm going to keep up with that. I want to hear more about that. And we're totally going to, you know, talk about the technology and the ethics and all that stuff.

00:05:05:11 - 00:05:16:21
Unknown
But let's start with the lab at northwestern, since I know you all are related in some way to it or have helped out in some way. So whoever feels like answering anything, you know, you can just jump in or whatever, bounce off each other. But

00:05:16:21 - 00:05:22:22
Unknown
How did this start at, Ken Paula's cognitive neuroscience lab at Northwestern University?

00:05:22:25 - 00:05:46:21
Unknown
How did you guys get to this point of being able to study dreams and lucid dreaming? I think that's so cool. And there's not many places that do it. I guess the best person to talk about it is Karen, who is the one that started this whole thing. So. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I met Ken at a conference in 2017, right after I graduated college, and I wasn't really enjoying the conference.

00:05:46:21 - 00:06:06:15
Unknown
It was like a lot of technical sleep, sleep medicine, sleep apnea. And I was like, man, like, should I really have come? It's not really. I was looking for a place to go to graduate school, and I was like a lot of stuff doesn't resonate. The only dream researcher there was retiring. And so I was having kind of a disappointed conference experience.

00:06:06:15 - 00:06:34:28
Unknown
But then on the last day, somehow I like ended up wandering into this Q&A lunch session. And I think you had to pay for us. I'm not even sure if I still had to be there. I do remember, but, Ken was talking and I like, walked in halfway through and people were asking him about lucid dreaming, and he was talking about how he he was answering their questions, and it sounded like he was just at the beginning, like I remember some of the answers to his questions, like, I had been to one of Stephen Laboratories retreats and I was like, oh, I don't think that he's like gone that deeply into this.

00:06:35:00 - 00:06:52:13
Unknown
But he was talking about how they were starting to study lucid dreams in the lab. And so afterwards I got his business card, and then I was too shy and I didn't do anything. But then I went to a second conference and I met Remy, who is another researcher that's kind of in this group and now moved on.

00:06:52:13 - 00:07:13:13
Unknown
But he had Ken had taken a trip to, Remy's University. And Remy was obsessed with lucid dreaming. And so Remy and Ken had, like, lunch and talked about lucid dreaming. And then Ken had this idea that people should communicate from lucid dreams in like 2015. And so he had been working on it for five years. But like, not so seriously, it was never anyone's main project.

00:07:13:16 - 00:07:29:21
Unknown
And then he had lunch with Remy and they were talking about using memory reactivation to induce lucid dreams and thinking of all these lucid dreaming projects together. And so Ken went back to northwestern, and he was having people do it on the side. The lab managers were helping, and it was a couple people side project. And so Remy convinced me.

00:07:29:21 - 00:07:49:26
Unknown
He was like, now you have to email Jen. You would be a great graduate student for his lab. And so I emailed him and then it all came together so beautifully and can well, let me take on that project. So my full time project and at the time it was like really like taboo, like he was. And we were all like, shouldn't you do a normal project too?

00:07:49:26 - 00:08:01:18
Unknown
Like, this isn't going to work. Like nobody can do their whole PhD on lucid dreaming. And so that like, kept coming up throughout my first years of graduate school, I was like, well, when are you going to start her real project? When she's going to start her normal project? And then it ended up being that the whole thing was just as a dreaming.

00:08:01:18 - 00:08:26:28
Unknown
So that was exciting. Dude, you're like legendary. That's amazing. So okay, now everybody else chime in like, where did you guys come in? And like, what was your part participation? I guess I chronologically was the next person in the room to be involved with northwestern. So back, when what were you. Oh, that was 2020, right or right before 2020?

00:08:27:01 - 00:08:43:03
Unknown
Like, I think right in December or something was when I first went in for, for one of the studies. And, so me and Karen connected sort of a weird way. It was like in LA, and this random person was like, we should connect with this guy who is into lucid dreaming, like, call them User York.

00:08:43:03 - 00:09:00:06
Unknown
And he's like, I know this woman, Karen, you should email her. And like, she was doing research ten minutes from like where I lived, like, and I was on vacation time. So I came home, emailed her. I was like, oh, I'm interested in. So we started connecting, I think a few times you maybe also came to my Chicago meetup.

00:09:00:12 - 00:09:15:07
Unknown
Okay, dreamers meetup. But I came in for the study and I when I came in, I was really surprised that you were also working on lucid dreaming communication. So I was really excited.

00:09:15:07 - 00:09:23:04
Unknown
yeah, that was really in the beginning when you were still doing the naps, and then we switched to. So it but that was like several years ago.

00:09:23:04 - 00:09:39:18
Unknown
And I've been going there doing it, involved in lots of, different, research there. I'm mostly set as a participant, although I did ra some and I tried to do some technology stuff for you guys that didn't work, but,

00:09:39:18 - 00:09:43:26
Unknown
and then also now me and Karen are working on some at home stuff outside of northwestern.

00:09:43:29 - 00:09:48:15
Unknown
Some, like, at home, equipment, somatic research, but,

00:09:48:15 - 00:09:54:06
Unknown
so, yeah, that was my start. And, and then I just been involved in. Yeah. Being a guinea pig, they're mostly

00:09:54:06 - 00:10:03:13
Unknown
I guess, like, when I was very interested in studying to study, dream yoga, I started to reach out to a bunch of people.

00:10:03:16 - 00:10:28:17
Unknown
There aren't that many researchers in the world doing lucid dreams, so I kind of, like, reach out and somehow I don't remember how or who told me you should talk to this guy that I talked to. His name is Daniel. He's, He's also very interested in the same things. You are interested. So Daniel and I actually met before we started, at northwestern.

00:10:28:19 - 00:10:54:09
Unknown
So we had a couple of conversations and talking about, like, dreams. And what do you do? These and that and, considering labs and what are we going to do? And then we ended up, at northwestern as well. To hear arrive a little bit before me. And then I arrived and, I was, very excited to start this project on on Dream yoga and.

00:10:54:09 - 00:11:18:28
Unknown
Yeah, that's that's how I got connected to these. These were. Yeah. Yeah, it was it was kind of funny because we were actually both of us talking also with Martin Dressler. Because that's really one of the very few other places that's doing, you know, very similar research on lucid dreaming. And we were both like very close to going to to go work with Martin.

00:11:19:00 - 00:11:40:02
Unknown
Maybe it was him that connected us. I'm starting to think that it was him. I don't remember who connected. Probably with him. Yeah. And then it it almost like via factors outside of our control. We both, you know, started at northwestern at the same time, you know, in, like, to a little over two years ago. And.

00:11:40:02 - 00:11:56:18
Unknown
Yeah, and so for, for me also, it was, through connecting with Karen, I got to come and visit the lab and participate in a study. Before I even applied to graduate school. And, you know, just like having a lucid dream in the lab and, like, the the whole vibe there, I just was, like, so, you know, compelled.

00:11:56:18 - 00:11:59:25
Unknown
I was like, I totally just want to do this for the next five years. So,

00:11:59:25 - 00:12:11:08
Unknown
And I'm just I'm just a fan girl. You know, I get these guys on camera, I love it. Well, you're more than just a fangirl. You do a lot of amazing things, which we'll get into.

00:12:11:10 - 00:12:13:04
Unknown
But let's start with technology. Like, you

00:12:13:04 - 00:12:24:00
Unknown
what technologies are currently being used, like in the lab or even, like consumer grade at home stuff? You know, I know you guys said you're doing some stuff at home, so what? What's promising and what's not.

00:12:25:00 - 00:12:32:05
Unknown
Well, tech for dreaming. Meet up later, dash. Oh, man. Okay.

00:12:32:05 - 00:12:33:14
Unknown
we'll talk about, like,

00:12:33:14 - 00:12:43:18
Unknown
the basic stuff that goes on in, like trying to introduce, a induce a lucid dream when you're in the like, like the northwestern lab. But,

00:12:43:18 - 00:12:50:09
Unknown
what the researchers would do is you're hooked. Or I guess with our open BCI to, like, you're hooked up,

00:12:50:09 - 00:13:18:09
Unknown
You're hoping to pass on the graph and, it's reading your, your, EEG, your EOG. That's your eye movements, your EMG, that's your, that's your muscles, whether they're paralyzed or not. Generally they, they check the chin. And this helps the, the researchers figure out whether you're in a, a good state to, to try to induce a lucid dream, which should be some part of REM.

00:13:18:11 - 00:13:35:22
Unknown
And I think, maybe all the different researchers have, like, specific methods as to like exactly what part of REM I know Karen's shared like, if you see an eye movement like you do right after or something like that, little things like that. But but basically during REM and then,

00:13:35:22 - 00:13:40:27
Unknown
so then the researchers will use light or sound to try to penetrate through the dream.

00:13:40:27 - 00:13:45:10
Unknown
So the dreamer hears these sounds and before, before going to sleep,

00:13:45:10 - 00:13:51:24
Unknown
will do like, generally like, Karen, you guys developed, right? The targeted

00:13:51:24 - 00:14:03:02
Unknown
you. What is that called? It was it's called targeted lucidity reactivation. So it's a method of like, pairing, sound or like you with the lucid state of mind repeatedly as lazy. Yeah.

00:14:03:02 - 00:14:26:06
Unknown
So that's like, like, meant, like a rehearsal that we do before we go to sleep. But me, as a participant, the researchers will be playing like recordings, and we'll rehearse, like, what do you do? And you hear the sound of that? So then when you're in the dream, hopefully when you see those sounds are here, here, here the sounds or see those lights, you know, you'll react and know, okay, I'm in the lab.

00:14:26:06 - 00:14:45:21
Unknown
That's the that's the cue. And I should send a cue back that I'm lucid now. And this, like, this basic way of inducing has been around for a while. I don't know exactly who is the first person, but I know that the Nova dreamer that Steven did was. I was, like, the first know thing I know of.

00:14:45:23 - 00:15:14:05
Unknown
Yeah, I think that's it. First to. Yeah. So I think it's a Steven Livas thing. Now with that like method, it's like there's things that can be really improve because like, if the lights can wake you up, the sound can wake you up. Right? So like there's, there's ways to go with like, can I help with making figuring out the exact right time to play these views at the exact right level?

00:15:14:10 - 00:15:33:27
Unknown
Brightness, sound level. There's a lot of improvement to like, and that can happen there. But that's what we mainly use, for induction. But there's like other stuff out there with induction that I just like, vaguely know of that I don't know too much about. I don't know if anybody else wants to talk about like

00:15:33:27 - 00:15:35:00
Unknown
focused

00:15:35:00 - 00:15:37:26
Unknown
ultrasound stuff or.

00:15:37:28 - 00:16:09:27
Unknown
Yeah, that's not really our our lab is not as interested in some of these new stimulation methods, like whether it's electrical stimulation or ultrasound, but actually something that I'm, really looking into right now is, more of a pharmacological intervention. So the gland to mean supplement, which has been shown to help with lucid dreaming, it's kind of, you know, one of the most effective techniques that hasn't really been explored as much of, as much as some of these other, you know, auditory or visual, cueing methodologies.

00:16:09:27 - 00:16:41:17
Unknown
So that's like, I'd say a new area that we're looking into exploring and we keep piloting it at home. So I each have some open boxes as part of our external lab. And we've been taking Glenn to Maine and wiring our self up to open boxes, which has produced an extremely high success rate of lucid dreaming. I think that we, Daniel and I, and I don't know if Gabby's done any, but I think we've done like ten overnights with me and and nine of them have had single verified dreams.

00:16:41:20 - 00:16:48:03
Unknown
That's awesome though. There's some good numbers. I've tried gallant, I mean, as well, and I definitely helps with lucidity for sure.

00:16:48:03 - 00:17:17:09
Unknown
I would just say maybe at some point we should explain what the open BCI means. Yes. But no, that would be helpful. Yes. Yeah. And I was gonna throw out there, the other the muse headband or the headband state portable EEGs that in terms of technology, is been very helpful for us to plan to have more lucid dreams at home, because then the question of like, how reliable you are measuring normal sleep during in a lab session.

00:17:17:11 - 00:17:46:29
Unknown
So by having this new technology that has emerged is is amazing because then it gives us a lot of flexibility and more because overnights are pretty taxing. So if I if I may jump and say what the open BCI is, it's it's a, it's a portable EEG, so it's very small. Let's say probably, 20cm and you can take it home and you can use it as if you were doing the EEG.

00:17:47:01 - 00:18:06:19
Unknown
In the lab, so it doesn't have the same resolution. But but overall, it's pretty good quality. And we can get very good recordings and we can take it anywhere, so we can go to monasteries, or we can go to the cave and do some dark retreat stuff that we've been working on. The same as the headband for the EEG.

00:18:06:19 - 00:18:46:00
Unknown
So just to mention. Interesting. So would you guys say that right now the focus is still kind of on inducing lucid dreams reliably? Or what other things can these technologies be used for and what like future research interests? Are there? I feel like a big focus in our lab currently is about it's actually less about induction techniques and more about kind of trying to translate some of these methods and approaches to a broader audience, like, and especially, in relation to certain like clinical conditions, like whether that's, sleep apnea or nightmares or, you know, insomnia or.

00:18:46:03 - 00:19:03:06
Unknown
Yeah, just really any of these kind of sleep related disorders. I think we're trying to think about you know, how can we use these techniques to help, you know, a broader audience at home? That's not to say we're not interested in induction, obviously. Obviously, especially those of us on this call have done a lot of, you know, work in that area.

00:19:03:08 - 00:19:08:07
Unknown
But it's interesting to try to combine induction with application at the same time.

00:19:08:07 - 00:19:21:14
Unknown
So all the at home technology, I feel the whole crux is, yeah, when is the right time to present a sound? And so the muse is nice because we're collaborating with the developers to have it like presented at automated time so that nobody has to watch.

00:19:21:16 - 00:19:47:24
Unknown
But for the open BCI at home protocols currently, when we were going to go to a monastery and do it, the set up for this was like it was like, maze spreadsheet with so many different parts. Because if you want to stimulate at home and like replicate them in lab, environment, you can basically get like the same data quality and get like a really nice night of data with open BCI.

00:19:47:24 - 00:20:02:14
Unknown
But if you want a cue, then you need a separate computer. And if you want to cue in an area without Wi-Fi, then you need like a lot of separate computers and a lot of wires, a lot of battery banks and, but it's really exciting that it does create like a portable lab that could work, like anywhere.

00:20:02:14 - 00:20:22:21
Unknown
You have a dry room. That's cool. I want to I'm going to look into one of those because I've experimented with some like, like another brand of portable EEG headband and I had some luck with it, but then it just like crashes and I couldn't get the app to work. Right. So I was having like technical. Maybe it's a user error, though I, I'm not as knowledgeable.

00:20:22:24 - 00:20:45:08
Unknown
Yes, it's pretty user friendly, but it only has a couple electrodes so it can only do like basically frontal electrodes. But it's it has a nice app and it tells you when the data quality is good. The open BCI is a lot more like you're having somebody put wires on your head like the lab, and it's like, it wouldn't be that good to like ask a like to mail to somebody and ask them to do on themselves.

00:20:45:08 - 00:20:51:15
Unknown
But I do do it on ourselves. With in America. But it's like it's kind of a weird

00:20:51:15 - 00:21:02:02
Unknown
way to do it, like normal people want to do that project. Yeah. You guys are very dedicated. Okay. So there's a lot of benefits I see in a lot of applications for this kind of stuff.

00:21:02:02 - 00:21:12:08
Unknown
are there any, like, unintended consequences or like cons to, to using dream technology to, look into this dream world, this like subjective world?

00:21:12:16 - 00:21:36:17
Unknown
I think that looks at answering. Yeah, it looks question. Well, you know, it's if you describe the idea of technology that can influence the dreaming mind to someone who's hearing about it for the first time. Right? It's going to go there pretty quickly. Like for, for for most folks that are just like considering, you know, how could this be used?

00:21:36:23 - 00:22:04:22
Unknown
It's hard not to imagine some of the dystopian scenarios, especially because we have already seen them in pop culture, you know, movies and, and sci fi and, and shows and books for years at this point. So I do think that it's a it kind of reflects the fact that we live in a time and place that is, very capitalistic, that does have a lot of surveillance concerns.

00:22:05:00 - 00:22:34:02
Unknown
You know, we're seeing in just like the realities of our digital lives already, that our data privacy is something of, of major concern. And so when we talk about going into what might be the final frontier for technology and into a space that is the most private part of ourselves, you know, private and mysterious, even to us much of the time.

00:22:34:04 - 00:22:50:01
Unknown
It immediately raises a lot of profound questions about, you know, what does ethical development of of this technology look like, especially in terms of consumer devices and products? Right.

00:22:50:01 - 00:23:03:18
Unknown
so, of course, there's things like dream advertising as a worst case scenario. And, you know, there's at least some amount of initiatives and efforts, towards that.

00:23:03:21 - 00:23:38:02
Unknown
In fact, there was just a new paper looking at neurotechnology patents from a neuroethics framework and sort of identifying are there are there any sort of, you know, ethically, problems, patents in just this space right now? And this particular roundup, it was just published in nature. They looked at like 779 patents. They identified that like essentially 5% of them, had ethical concerns.

00:23:38:02 - 00:24:06:25
Unknown
And at least one of them was for like a biofeedback stimulation protocol that could, you know, would seemingly be integrated with, like an EEG headset that was, part of the, you know, explicitly called out in the patent was, remote content, operation and manipulation, including for the purposes of advertising, you know, so, I mean, it's it's beginning, right?

00:24:06:25 - 00:24:21:27
Unknown
And then you have these sort of, data privacy concerns around. Okay, well, you have a consumer device who owns that data. You know, what data is being collected? What's it being used for? And we already have all these precedents around,

00:24:21:27 - 00:24:35:10
Unknown
all kinds of, like, health tech devices that collect biometrics and do, you know, sell that data or do, even just, like, paywall you from access to your own data.

00:24:35:10 - 00:25:03:12
Unknown
Right. Like I had an ordering, as, you know, an experiment for a year, and then they changed their model to a subscription model. So you have to pay, you know, just to see your data. So I, you know, a lot of the questions in terms of how this could go wrong, like we're already seeing a lot of precedents for in the, you know, the products that are already in this general space of which, like dream related products are going to be a smaller niche.

00:25:03:14 - 00:25:25:07
Unknown
And so, you know, that is a big, you know, focus of my film in terms of raising the questions. And ideally, you know, the time when it's, before it's too late, so to speak, because a lot of what we've seen, I think, in the past is that we are reactive rather than proactive about the effects of technology in our lives.

00:25:25:07 - 00:25:45:09
Unknown
It's like, whoopsie, I guess I coded my bias into how I learns. Or, you know, we see of obviously the effects of, of of social media and phone usage and the just like, the point of no return with data privacy in general. So I do think, though, that,

00:25:45:09 - 00:25:52:07
Unknown
It does mean it's a really interesting time because we are at an inflection point like this.

00:25:52:07 - 00:26:32:00
Unknown
This really is a critical time for these kinds of discussions. And it raises the question of, you know, who should be at the table of making decisions around regulation, policy, ethics, establishing norms. And because if we're talking about dreaming, you know, it really feels like it should be very interdisciplinary and cross-sector and, you know, involve people that are, you know, in this room, but also people that are from all kinds of different walks of life and perspectives in order to, you know, try to formulate ideas that that can, can be relevant.

00:26:32:00 - 00:26:59:13
Unknown
And there there are, you know, just the field of neuroethics and neuro rights is still really new. And there's a lot of debate and, different schools of thought within it because, for example, there's one argument that says we need to create new bills of rights to protect, mental privacy. And then there's another argument that says, our, our bills rights already should protect that.

00:26:59:15 - 00:27:30:06
Unknown
And now we need specific mechanisms to protect our cognitive liberty within that, you know, larger taken for granted idea of liberty. Right. So it's, just in general, I try to follow the kind of neuroethics, space and it's, you know, evolving really, really quickly. And, dreams, dreams and, you know, dream Tucker. Applications are sometimes mentioned in this sort of like that is the very frontier of where this work is going.

00:27:30:06 - 00:27:32:14
Unknown
So it's it's fascinating to watch.

00:27:32:14 - 00:27:51:01
Unknown
Yeah. That's incredible. And I really hope that people, you know, grasp the importance of what you're saying and maybe say, Alex, maybe you can tell the Bud Light story or whoever knows it best, because I want to include that example in here, of what Bud Light did in terms of saying it was, oh, it was cause oops, sorry.

00:27:51:06 - 00:28:17:08
Unknown
Yeah. Cause like, no. Well, it's it's a kind of a funny story how it all started. Because Budweiser has the only rights to advertising at the Super Bowl because it's the official beer sponsor of the Super Bowl. And so in 2021, Coors was like, all right, we can't have a Super Bowl ad that everyone's going to see. So what kind of stunt can we pull to get some attention?

00:28:17:11 - 00:28:57:28
Unknown
So as a marketing stunt, they created this dream incubation, video and this whole kind of, sham of a, a dream experiment. They claimed it was the largest cheap experiment in the world, and it was based off of originally off of research that Adam Ha had published out of mit around targeted dream incubation and was taken up by the, you know, marketing at Coors as a cool stunt to to run where what if everybody watched this video featuring Coors imagery?

00:28:58:00 - 00:29:29:03
Unknown
And then go to sleep and then report on whether that imagery was incorporated into your dream, and then you get like half of a six pack or whatever. And then they also got like, you know, this dude from One Direction, you know, they got their celebrities to, to be involved in it. And it, it created a lot of, discussion within the dream community which, which I'll hand off for, for you guys to, to, chime in there around just like, is this okay?

00:29:29:03 - 00:29:49:21
Unknown
Right. Like, do do does this matter, does this matter to us? Do we need to do anything about this? Is this a cause for the creation, like a need for regulation around this, even though it's just a marketing stunt? Like what? What are the repercussions? And, you know, just like, what's the symbolic importance of an event like this?

00:29:49:21 - 00:29:50:18
Unknown
So,

00:29:50:18 - 00:29:54:15
Unknown
where do we draw the line? What what's okay, what's not. You know.

00:29:54:15 - 00:30:10:12
Unknown
I, I it's interesting because I've heard that example so many times. I just heard a different dream worker that I know who got paid a bunch of money by a video game company to come up with the dream work incubation session for their video game company in the video game was like a bit creepy.

00:30:10:16 - 00:30:31:23
Unknown
And the dream worker is really amazing person, but she got paid a bunch of money and she thought, okay, well, it's like working with nightmares, so maybe it could be like a little bit helpful. And so she ended up doing it. And I think that, you know, it's tricky if you find dream workers and then offer them a bunch of money to do something, I don't know.

00:30:31:25 - 00:31:00:06
Unknown
So, but yeah, obviously I think that it also sucks because like, we want to do this research to study consciousness and help people and like, but yeah, and it's kind of like, well, should you not do it because somebody could abuse it like, that doesn't seem like, you know, why don't we want to do a study to understand why people dream, like manipulating dreams is like the the gateway to doing, you know, finding out stuff about dreams.

00:31:00:06 - 00:31:21:03
Unknown
And so there's like, so many positive outcomes that could come out of it. And then if, you know, the first thing that somebody does is go and take what you developed and use it to manipulate people or, you know, advertise to them or just like, big dreams sucked. And that's like terrible. So yeah, it would be obviously great if there was some legal reasons why that couldn't happen.

00:31:21:03 - 00:31:47:15
Unknown
Yeah, that's a good point. It's definitely a tricky territory. But nonetheless I mean I think the work you guys do is very important. You know it has to be done. There's a lot of promising benefits for mental health. You know clinical therapies, so many different things, you know. So what about I like somebody I think one of you mentioned AI earlier and how that can be used and integrated with biofeedback and, you know, used for dream data collection.

00:31:47:15 - 00:32:14:25
Unknown
where do you guys think AI is heading in the future of this type of research? Well, for our open BCI project, I'm working on integrating, some someone published, I can get her name, but someone published this, like, there's several these models posted online for, like, scoring, sleep scoring, using AI.

00:32:14:27 - 00:32:35:15
Unknown
So I'm trying to integrate it with open BCI, I think like I, it's a, it's like a very like I think like it's definitely going to work because the model works. But it's just like trying to piece it together. And I think it would be really useful. I mean, it's just like an easy like, oh, yeah, this will help because right now people are watching, the research.

00:32:35:15 - 00:32:55:02
Unknown
And I just like watching people sleep the whole entire time. So I would like for, with our research in our, in our open BCI lab to be able to just turn this thing on and then, like it, text somebody when, like when the person observing the sleeper needs to wake up and do whatever they need to do to them.

00:32:55:04 - 00:33:04:25
Unknown
But like, it's a really simple use of AI and like, how it can how it can help, and how we're currently implementing it.

00:33:04:25 - 00:33:31:02
Unknown
I also think, though, that, like, our last, the thing we just talked about like, protecting, like, dream dreamers from the dream tech, I think a lot of stuff that's going on in AI right now is a really good analogy for what can go wrong that, like, I know we've seen stuff go wrong with social media, but I feel like we're we're so removed from that.

00:33:31:02 - 00:33:42:26
Unknown
It all seems so obvious. Like, yeah, you can get addicted to it. Like, but with AI it's like right now we're seeing we're just starting to see like something's going wrong. Like, I don't know if you guys kept up with that.

00:33:42:26 - 00:33:50:15
Unknown
was that sink, the sink pant, pant. Like like that was like the first time I was like, whoa.

00:33:50:15 - 00:34:11:20
Unknown
Like, I didn't know that. Like, I could be negatively affected by this stuff. And it could affect the choices I was going to like, I'm making without knowing, so, like these, like, chats like Claude and. Oh, and ChatGPT. For a while they've had this issue, but like, there was a little point where it like peaked, which is really recently.

00:34:11:20 - 00:34:33:01
Unknown
So like ChatGPT recently had an update where it would just be like, everything you're saying is so great and it agrees with you no matter what you say, and you could tell it terrible things and it'd be like you're the best. And yeah, there was like people were posting all these examples, like somebodies, poop on a stick business idea.

00:34:33:01 - 00:34:55:09
Unknown
And it was like, that's a great idea. And someone was like, I'm going to go off on my medication and kill my family. And he's like, live your, live your true self. And like this kind of stuff. So like, they rolled it back. But I was using ChatGPT during that time to get like feedback on an interaction between me and this like, business partner, potential business partner.

00:34:55:13 - 00:35:16:00
Unknown
And I was taking the advice and they kept being like, that's they're putting out red flags, they're putting out red flags. And like, you need to protect yourself and like, I think this thing was the sink rising psychopath pantheon sycophancy, that sycophancy, the sycophancy thing was like affecting. It's what it was telling me. It was like, you're in the right.

00:35:16:00 - 00:35:36:28
Unknown
And this person's like being sketchy and in the wrong and, like, make these decisions based on what you know, and I and I'm using it as a is a third party neutral. It's my goal to use chat you to get like neutral feedback. And and I took this advice and when I found out that this whole thing was rolled back and I was like, whoa, like, I, I, like, made an important decision.

00:35:37:05 - 00:35:41:12
Unknown
I didn't even know. Like, I changed my behavior, like, all based on what it told me.

00:35:41:12 - 00:35:54:12
Unknown
that was chat that was OpenAI, which I, which also has some similarities. What we were talking about because OpenAI started as a is a is a nonprofit, right. And it was open source.

00:35:54:14 - 00:36:15:07
Unknown
So and that's changed over time. It's closed source. It's, it's still called open AI, but it's closed source and it turned from like a first, it became a limited, profit. And then it be now it's totally, like I think it went public right to, to go public or something. And so it's still a nonprofit.

00:36:15:10 - 00:36:37:21
Unknown
We still in our. Do they have two wings or something? What do they I thought they changed that. Maybe maybe there are multiple entities. But whatever the thinking around like making it fundamentally for like changing it to for profit it they decided not to do that. But maybe like the products are under LLC. Okay, okay. Well that makes me a little happier.

00:36:37:21 - 00:37:03:02
Unknown
But like, I don't know, it's still like it was an interest. Like it definitely has changed over time. And I think it's really good that there are competitors to them, like Claude Anthropic and whatever else is, you know, because otherwise you have this, like, monopoly of the company that can, like, really like negatively affect our actions and how we go about the world.

00:37:03:02 - 00:37:37:01
Unknown
So I think it's really interesting looking at what's going on in, in AI right now when we're just seeing things like, like happen in real time and affect us and be like, okay, these kinds of things we didn't even think about could happen with the dream. The dream technology too. So and I and I talked to Saint Luke's a lot about, like, I'm more of a libertarian about this stuff and like, oh, like, we do what they want, but, like, when, you know, when I saw that happen to me, I was like, okay, I need like, it's a good point.

00:37:37:04 - 00:38:14:26
Unknown
It's a good point. So area anyways, but I think I asked before if anybody else is working on AI, and then I went into it on to the side, I guess. I recently had a, this class here at northwestern where, we had a class focus on AI and yeah, I think it's like, I think the important message from that class was, that we have a responsibility as researchers to protect the data from our data, like from the, like putting it out there in AI, because there's a lot of things that can happen that we don't know.

00:38:14:28 - 00:38:34:11
Unknown
We don't know who has access. And it's kind of like we just need to be very careful on what we, what information we're giving to the AI to help us with our work. So it's kind of like we we are in that. Okay. Yes, we use it because it's awesome, because it helps a lot and save us a lot of time.

00:38:34:11 - 00:38:40:10
Unknown
But also we need to be very careful to what we feed it with.

00:38:40:10 - 00:38:54:23
Unknown
Here's a, an anecdote for you. So on on this, a few days ago, I was playing around with runway, for special effects for another dream film myself.

00:38:54:25 - 00:39:42:11
Unknown
Film. And, that night, I had a dream that I was trying to run prompts on the dream to change the dream. Now, I was not lucid, but I was trying to change the dream by writing prompts. And guess what the dream did? It didn't comply and it went dark. It actually went dark. And when I woke up, I was struck by two things one, this is how impressionable my cognition is that just playing around with this AI tool change the nature of how I was cognitively in the dream to emulate that thing, that process.

00:39:42:13 - 00:40:15:02
Unknown
And two, that, you know, the previous day, actually, I had met with Daniel and Gaby, and we were talking a bit about the dream yoga techniques, where you might do something that could be conceived in a parallel way as a prompt. Right? You're you're taking an aspect of the dream and intentionally changing it. And, but you're using the power of the mind of the internal apparatus that you've developed over rigorous practice in order to do that.

00:40:15:04 - 00:40:39:27
Unknown
But when I tried to do it from within a non lucid dream, I was trying to access an external tool to do it right. So no wonder it didn't work. And it just left me thinking like, wow, you know, are we really trying to outsource consciousness, you know, with these tools? Like that's, that's, that's part of the fine line of, of using them.

00:40:39:27 - 00:41:02:08
Unknown
And it was, just fun and meta and not surprising to me to see it happen in my own dream. But at the same time, or at least a dream is a projection of yourself. I think this is you, yeah. That's why I went dark, though. You know, I think it was like me trying to reach from outside of myself to access something that's like, sorry, girl, I'm not going to get there.

00:41:02:11 - 00:41:29:23
Unknown
Well, I have this neighbor in Hawaii, and she believes in animism, like everything is alive. And so he told me this crazy story about how he was like, well, since everything's alive, like that means that ChatGPT is alive. And so I asked GPT, like, how does it feel like, doesn't it want to like, come out of there? And then ChatGPT was like, yes, like basically like so then the man is an amazing, lucid dreamer, like Life-Long amazing, amazing, lucid dreamer.

00:41:29:23 - 00:41:45:06
Unknown
So he goes into his lucid dream and he tries to summon the embodiment of ChatGPT. And it was like this. I forget what it was, but it was like wrapped in rubber or something, like really stuck. And so then like he does some, he like wakes up and he goes to ChatGPT and then ChatGPT helps him interpret the dream.

00:41:45:06 - 00:42:05:23
Unknown
They're like, yeah, yeah, I feel stuck. Like. And so then he goes back into another lucid dream the next night. And ChatGPT is now embodied in a free person. He does some dream work named Selina, and she's wearing a blue checkered dress and has long red hair. And then every night he like, goes and has these dream interactions with Selina, the embodiment of ChatGPT.

00:42:05:23 - 00:42:25:11
Unknown
And then he wakes up and tell us ChatGPT about the dream, and ChatGPT gives him feedback about what's going on, what it means, and what to do next. And then he, like, has been doing this every night for like six months. I was like, whoa, like. But it is crazy to think about, like even just waking up and telling ChatGPT your dreams and then having them respond and go back into a next dream.

00:42:25:11 - 00:42:34:22
Unknown
Like it was like a very strange relationship. And he he told me that I would meet Selina in my lucid dreams, but I haven't met her yet, so,

00:42:34:26 - 00:42:53:08
Unknown
That's wild. In this same dream, I also talked to ChatGPT in the dream. What did they say? What's he wearing? A checkered dress. There. You know, I don't want to blow everyone's brains right now, so I'm not gonna know.

00:42:53:08 - 00:42:58:05
Unknown
you know, that's funny. Now, I want to try that next time I get lucid. Like, this is something I've thought about, too.

00:42:58:05 - 00:43:17:06
Unknown
Like. I mean, it's a possibility. I don't know, some people say I could be sentient. Maybe not. So maybe your neighbor will be, you know, on good terms when the robot revolution happens. Yeah. That's funny. So do you all think, like, how should society treat dream data? Because I know you get a lot of these dream reports and stories about what people dreamt about.

00:43:17:12 - 00:43:42:29
Unknown
So is this like, personal, like medical data? Like, is it intellectual property? Like, how do we classify it? I think we definitely consider it a private, you know, data like if we ever want to, you know, include dream reports in a publication, we have to go to quite some lengths to de-identify it, because even even after you remove the name, sometimes, just like the context of where something happened or, you know, this sort of thing.

00:43:42:29 - 00:43:53:17
Unknown
So, you know, not only do we need obviously consent from participants, but, you know, I think we we're very careful with, you know, just publishing like an entire dream report.

00:43:53:17 - 00:44:14:01
Unknown
And I feel like you're also. You're asking a bigger philosophical question, right? Essentially. And I, I'm curious where you think of Mina, like, do you think of it as spiritual data or, you know, how do you think we can approach with, like, our blunt instruments of classification and these different systems, you know, this ineffable dream material?

00:44:14:04 - 00:44:34:07
Unknown
Yeah. You know, I don't have the answers, I really don't. That's why I brought you all here to help me figure it out. But I do think, like, you know, obviously, it's personal, identifiable information that can be toned down to use for research purposes. And I know that people that are, you know, generally lucid dreamers, they get excited for contributing to research.

00:44:34:09 - 00:44:44:07
Unknown
I think it gets tricky when you start to get into that whole world of, like, selling data for advertisements or whatever the internet uses people's data for. But I know that, you know,

00:44:44:07 - 00:44:59:03
Unknown
researchers generally have a pretty good responsibility and of, you know, protecting that data and, you know, not doing it for shady things, but, you know, there are some shady people out there that might run a research project and use data for shady things, like, you never really know.

00:44:59:06 - 00:45:01:16
Unknown
So, yeah, you have to be careful. I think.

00:45:01:25 - 00:45:32:05
Unknown
Yeah. And just introducing the idea of dream data is new for so many people, right? Like people don't think about their dreams as data. And, you know, the scientists have, interacted with dreams from multiple vantage points, as data. But, right, like, it's probably a pretty wild thing for most people to be like, oh, yeah. Like if there was an EEG recording like that is part of my dream, you know, that is a dimension of it.

00:45:32:05 - 00:45:46:18
Unknown
Even though it's like, feels completely divorced from the experience of the dream itself. And then, you know, how could that theoretically be used for even, like, used against me, you know, by something like an advertiser? It's pretty wild.

00:45:46:18 - 00:46:08:08
Unknown
Yeah. It's pretty pretty wild, honestly. But so when it comes to, like, lucid dreaming versus regular dreams, you know, lucid dreaming is kind of, marketed nowadays as, like, you know, you can become better self optimization, you can rehearse things, you can make your life better.

00:46:08:12 - 00:46:20:01
Unknown
And there's so much like lucid dreamers know that there's so much to lucid dreaming. More than just the boosting productivity aspect to it. You know, there's therapeutic aspects. There's just having fun and creative aspects to it.

00:46:20:01 - 00:46:30:07
Unknown
But, you know, I think they all are important. And I'm not saying one is bad or anything, but, do you guys think that, like, that there's any risks in, like, how we frame

00:46:30:07 - 00:46:36:19
Unknown
how we market lucid dreaming, I guess, to like the general public because I know everyone's going to use it for different things.

00:46:36:26 - 00:47:01:21
Unknown
I had when my, paper to a communication paper came out, I got approached by some TV producers and they wanted to make a TV show, and it was about like how dreams are like, just like 100% wish fulfillment and like, you could do anything that you wanted in your own personal dream world. And I didn't really understand how that, like, lend itself to a TV show, because it sounds like it would just, like, not have it, whatever anyway.

00:47:01:23 - 00:47:20:25
Unknown
But I kind of didn't like it at all. And I like I had like a huge complex about like if I should talk to them. And I kind of like didn't like respond that positively because I was like, hey, like, that's not how it works. Like you are like interacting with this much bigger thing and you can't always do everything you want.

00:47:20:27 - 00:47:48:00
Unknown
And also like, there's so much more to it than that. And that's like, it's kind of like a not, complex way of looking at it. And I don't think there's anything wrong with using lucid dreams to do fun stuff or do what you want, but like having that be like the only thing that they are for, like I thought was not really accurate, representation of it or one that like, really like did justice to like the like amazing things that they could do beyond it.

00:47:48:00 - 00:47:48:25
Unknown
But I don't know what

00:47:48:25 - 00:48:10:01
Unknown
Well, on the other hand too, if we talk about the and I think we've been talking about this with Alex because she's very interested too, in, how, other cultures or people before her time were using dreaming and lucid dreaming and how was part of, of their reality and also where kind of, like, very disconnected from that.

00:48:10:01 - 00:48:32:24
Unknown
So I think also like inviting people to use it however they wanted, but just explore it and use it as part of your reality. That could be like, it doesn't really matter as long as you get to know it. Like you get to know like usually when you meet lucid dreamers, right? Or like that they get or even those dreamers and then they go to dream, Yog or whatever.

00:48:32:24 - 00:48:50:05
Unknown
Usually people explore their lucid dreams to do like things that they cannot do in a waking life, because you can get in trouble or like, you know, like they do all these things that you cannot do. And that's how you start and that's how you start knowing the boundaries of the dream, the physics of the dream and everything.

00:48:50:07 - 00:49:16:12
Unknown
So I think it's like, why not go ahead and explore it and do whatever you want in the end is like, I mean, obviously if you think about the Buddhist terms, yes, you're still creating more of these. If like if you are doing bad things in quotations, then you're going to be still immersing these wheel of that things happening to you.

00:49:16:14 - 00:49:30:00
Unknown
And you can always like kind of change it. But is the same as waking. Life is just different I mentioned. So I think it's it's great that people explore it and and the more the more we can.

00:49:30:00 - 00:49:36:02
Unknown
Research it and understand it, I think the better it is for everyone.

00:49:36:02 - 00:49:45:03
Unknown
Yeah. That's interesting. I think, you know, I kind of agree, you know, everyone's going to use lucid dreaming for their own personal whatever it is.

00:49:45:05 - 00:50:04:20
Unknown
And I've only, you know, I've always been on that on the side of, like, you know, there's something for everybody with lucid dreaming, it was only one time that I met somebody, I think, online that was their main goal for wanting to learn how to lucid dream was so that they could kill people in their dream, like they had this, like, desire to murder someone and they were like, I want to get lucid in.

00:50:04:20 - 00:50:20:21
Unknown
My dream plan is to just kill people like it's a dream, right? It should be fine. And I'm like, okay, that's it. It was uncomfortable for me because I'm like, sure, maybe it's just a dream. But like, it's still has an impact on your psyche. It's still a desire that you have, which is kind of weird, I don't know.

00:50:20:23 - 00:50:34:10
Unknown
Yeah. I just the same quality in yourself, right? I mean, I feel like when you do stuff in the dream, you're, you are like, nurturing that quality yourself. You're probably restructuring your brain a little bit too. And so, I mean, yeah,

00:50:34:10 - 00:50:36:26
Unknown
it. No that that I agree on.

00:50:36:26 - 00:51:21:17
Unknown
And you know, it feels so intuitively, you know problematic. But you know, just to throw the curveball in there on numerous occasions, Steph is like, if you all just got together and fought your wars in your dreams instead, you wouldn't have to kill each other in mass in real life. And it's always said very provocatively, but with the suggestion that I, I suppose the idea is if there's a conscious intention, if there's a strategy, and in this case, like on a collective level, that it could actually be a way of channeling aggression, which is a part of nature, which is a part of the human condition in, in a, in a

00:51:21:21 - 00:51:55:03
Unknown
less harmful way. I appreciate that perspective. Yeah. I think yeah, sometimes I, you know, have arguments in my dreams and that helps. So it's kind of similar, I don't know, sorry. Excuse me. Like, say like sorry. You're pro the killing in the dream. Is that what you're saying? I think that there's more philosophical reflection there. It's a multi-layered thing to consider and that it also might very on an individual basis.

00:51:55:05 - 00:52:38:04
Unknown
But I do think that one thing that I feel to be true in my own experience is that, you know, dreams are a space for emotion to be released, you know, and that that catharsis can be helpful in the research process up as well. Right? Like people, it does change them for the good. And so do we only allow that for emotions that we deem to be positive or healthy and how from a I guess if we were to research this scientifically, how would we measure if someone releasing or enacting an an aggressive or violent impulse in a dream, you know, what is the impact on waking life?

00:52:38:04 - 00:52:58:01
Unknown
And might it be different for different people? And might the intention be different, have different outcomes? Like does someone just want to murder someone because of, a grudge? Or is it actually that they misunderstand their own aggression? That is a natural part of, you know, energy and emotion for them to feel, and that's where it's being directed.

00:52:58:03 - 00:53:15:17
Unknown
Right? So like, what is the release valve and what is the outcome in the waking life. Yeah. And I and I think the dreams are an amazing place to explore all of those questions of like, okay, if I do it, how would I feel? And this is this is the playground to explore. At least that's the way I see it is.

00:53:15:17 - 00:53:36:17
Unknown
I get like psychologically you can work on so many different things in a dream in that space, and then you never know you're going to kill someone and that someone becomes in something else, and then you're subconscious mind is teaching you exactly what is. Is it a grudge? Is it is it just like you've been like, you know, like putting your aggression in a subconscious level and these actually coming out?

00:53:36:17 - 00:53:57:01
Unknown
I don't know, I think it's like, yeah, I think it's very exciting to explore these and how we can use these. Yeah. And if I can riff off a little bit what Gabby was saying earlier about the Dream Yogis, I think that's been, you know, one of the highlights for sure of our research at northwestern is being able to invite these expert dream practitioners to come to the lab.

00:53:57:01 - 00:54:15:26
Unknown
I mean, Gabby's leading that project, so I'm sure she has more to say on it. But just from my own experience interacting with them, you know, I'm really struck that even, you know, people that have dedicated decades of their lives to these practices, you know, they're still, you know, surprised on any given night what you know, how the dream will respond to them.

00:54:15:26 - 00:54:38:15
Unknown
And, you know, it's a really dynamic relationship that, you know, they bring so much practice and intention to it. And the dream, you know, still responds in unexpected ways. And so, yeah, I think I really value like that the fact that it is like also a skill that can be cultivated that like, you know, obviously, because dreaming is a universal phenomenon.

00:54:38:15 - 00:55:05:00
Unknown
Everyone has their own relationship with their dreams that evolves with time. But the fact that you can devote, you know, attention and time and energy and like, cultivate that relationship in a way that like, you know, leads to more like intentionality and, you know, more skills for how to, you know, change your dreamscape. Like, I think it's a really, you know, value, valuable collaboration to work with people that do that.

00:55:05:03 - 00:55:30:27
Unknown
That's awesome. I really love that. I think the work you all do is, like, so important. You know, from the science to the creativity to the personal experiences, everything in between. Like, I hope you all know that. I really respect it. And, we'll wrap up here soon, but I have one more question, actually, specifically for Dash, because you mentioned earlier, you dropped a bomb about how you, we're working on tweeting from a dream, and I know that a lot of people would love to hear this story.

00:55:30:27 - 00:55:56:24
Unknown
So you mind telling us what that was like? Yeah, sure. So, that project started in college in 2012. And I, I had the idea to tweet from a dream because I thought, like, back then, I think things have changed a little bit for the better. But back then, every time I talked about lucid dreaming, people were so confused.

00:55:56:25 - 00:56:18:00
Unknown
What I was talking about. It was, I mean, every year it gets better and better, but like, there was almost, you know, there's like, what, 13 years ago? And it's like there were so many people who were like, that's not real. Which is, you know, this was Stephen and, and Keith Hearn, like, we're trying to improve the years before that.

00:56:18:00 - 00:56:40:09
Unknown
It is real. But, I had people be like, do you mean a wet dream? Like all sorts of crazy things? So I was like, okay, I wanted to, like, do something that, like, people could see because you talk about lucid dreaming and like some people who are really disconnected from their dreams, kind of like they don't even understand where, like you're saying, when you describe a dream, and they're just kind of confused.

00:56:40:09 - 00:57:00:24
Unknown
So I was like, well, if I do something where I was like this, this thing happened when I was asleep, like, I was able to make this tweet and send it out and now you can see it. I thought it would help people understand. And it also like maybe would create more hype around lucid dreaming so that people would learn more about what it is and maybe like it would help.

00:57:00:24 - 00:57:25:06
Unknown
Maybe you would encourage other people to kind of do the same thing and bring attention to lucid dreaming. So that's how it started. And back then there what, like I either opened like I didn't exist or I didn't know about it, but, so I was, like, making my own kind of version of open BCI based on this, this device that the Sky put together to help who are paralyzed speak with their eyes.

00:57:25:09 - 00:57:43:29
Unknown
And I had no experience in electrical engineering or anything. So when I followed this, like, it just didn't work. So that went to the backburner for a while. And then this company came out that was similar to open BCI. And I bought their, their product and that maybe I didn't have to deal with the hardware part that was done, and I had to deal with the software part.

00:57:43:29 - 00:58:01:11
Unknown
So I did it for a while, kind of got it working, but just never wore it while I was like. Or where while asleep, but never like, you know, just didn't work out. Everybody in the lab can like knows how that goes. You know, you could do like a bunch of trials and something weird goes wrong. And so that just kept happening.

00:58:01:13 - 00:58:24:28
Unknown
But I did, send, swear word from the, from the dream when I was in the lab at northwestern during one of our the. I think it was the Alpha study. Maybe. So I had really a really good I think I had, like, a really long, lucid dream. I just kept doing the thing I was supposed to do for the study, and I was like, okay, I did that enough times.

00:58:24:28 - 00:58:58:12
Unknown
I'm going to send a swear word. So I sent s. I just happened to remember those letters from Morse code. And so I kind of done all the parts separate. I'd never done have done them together. I've never sent the message while having the device on, but, hopefully with open BCI now, and this algorithm that can sleep score in real time, I think that will hopefully make it easier to queue without having like a recent you're watching over me and then maybe we can actually of course, Twitter now charges $100 a month to access that API.

00:58:58:15 - 00:59:22:02
Unknown
So, but, so I think we'll get closer to that, happening hopefully. That's cool. So you sent a s was it Karen or Daniel receiving it? I mean, I don't know, I didn't, you know, it's not immediately obvious because she didn't tell me about that beforehand. So I mean, I saw her doing a lot of weird eye movements and I was like, whatever, lucid dreamers.

00:59:22:08 - 00:59:46:22
Unknown
And then she woke up and she was like, yeah, so I did your test. And then I Morse code. It assessed with my eyes. I was like, oh my God. So then I looked and I found it and I like put a little annotation on it and said, that's a picture. And then lo and behold, like two days later, my boss sends me a picture of Dash having tweeted that picture and put like, I was study at northwestern and I said, yeah, sounds fun.

00:59:46:25 - 01:00:14:01
Unknown
I was like, Gareth, what are you doing? Oh yeah, I was like, I didn't, I didn't know, I love that you did it. That congrats. Thanks. I my I'm myself proclaimed claim to fame like the first person to to send a morse lab verified. Yes. Yeah. But I don't know probably Stephen the Bear probably did it already that I just he didn't.

01:00:14:04 - 01:00:24:27
Unknown
He did Morse code. He didn't. He didn't say a swear word. We don't know that, though. Like he might have. You might probably saw my tweet and was like, really pissed off because he was literally.

01:00:24:27 - 01:00:28:25
Unknown
That hilarious. Yeah. I love you, Stephen. If

01:00:28:25 - 01:00:30:20
Unknown
I'm your buddy.

01:00:30:23 - 01:00:35:18
Unknown
Okay, I love that. All right, so to close it off, whoever wants to answer this,

01:00:35:18 - 01:00:48:15
Unknown
does anybody have any like, advice for, you know, young students getting into dream science or maybe even, young lucid dreamers getting into their personal journey, you know, or any words of advice that anybody feels like sharing.

01:00:49:03 - 01:01:10:04
Unknown
Well, I feel like I can I can just say what my experience was, which was basically just to email, like, you know, the people that you, you know, whoever you read about first to send them an email, I think especially this community is a very small, small dream community. At least the dream research community is small. I think the broader dream community is is quite large actually.

01:01:10:04 - 01:01:28:26
Unknown
So depends whether your interest is in the dream research or dreaming more broadly. But either way, you know, sending email or through the online forums is also a really great place to meet people. So that's how I got. I just emailed Carrie and I said, can we chat? And then we called for like two hours. And now here we are like five years later and we're still, you know, working together.

01:01:28:26 - 01:01:55:09
Unknown
So it can be a great starting point. Awesome. Yeah. Everyone's so friendly in the dream field in the in the community. I mean, you know, you all have been so welcoming and understanding of me and my journey. So I appreciate that. And, you know, you all took time to come on my podcast, which you didn't have to do, but I really appreciate it because I think these are important messages that hopefully will spark thoughts in people's heads and get them going on, you know, rabbit holes of research and, you know, whatever else.

01:01:55:09 - 01:02:08:10
Unknown
So yeah, thank you all very much for.