In the second episode of The Glampitect PODcast, Jason Devenish of Leisure Design Projects and Enchanted Creations speaks about the importance of creating an experiential destination, as opposed to the traditional 'cookie cutter' approach for your glamping site.
If you're someone who likes to think outside the box when creating visitor destinations, this one is for you.
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In the second episode of The Glampitect PODcast, Jason Devenish of Leisure Design Projects and Enchanted Creations speaks about the importance of creating an experiential destination, as opposed to the traditional 'cookie cutter' approach for your glamping site.
If you're someone who likes to think outside the box when creating visitor destinations, this one is for you.
Links (tap the text to visit):
Contact:
Hello, and welcome to the Glampitect Podcast. In today's episode, I spoke to Jason Devenish of Leisure Design Projects. Jason's a really interesting guy, and he explained his ideas on just how good your glamping site can be if you really think creatively. He argued against what he calls the cookie cutter approach, suggesting that there are far greater opportunities in store for those who are bold in their glamping aspirations. Before we get on with today's episode, I'd like to remind you of Made Of Bits, who are once again sponsoring us. They make bespoke timber frames with CNC technology, perfect for manufacturers of glamping accommodation. Finally, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast through whichever app you're listening on. That way, Episode Three with Gareth Edwards from Naked Flame Eco Tubs will arrive straight in your feed. And with that, we're ready to go. Enjoy the podcast. Hope you find it useful. Hi, Jason. how you doing?
Jason Devenish:Hello, Nick. Yeah, I'm well, thank you.
Nick Purslow:So in the first episode of this podcast, we when we spoke to Calum, we basically just got a bit of a run through of his backstory, how he got the idea for Glampitect and how he grew it to where it is today. So I'd like to do something similar for you. So could you just give us a bit of your backstory and your journey through to where Leisure Design is today?
Jason Devenish:Yeah, sure, my background in recent years has been in the attractions industry. So anything from farm attractions to theme parks, and zoos, and other related holiday parks. And my background has been in the design and build of themed attractions, adventure play areas, adventure golf courses. And most of the projects that I would have been involved in will be coordinating the process, from early brief to coordinating the entire design process prior to the project kind of going live if you like. So I've been involved in a lot of complex design and build projects, mostly one off bespoke projects, one from the other. And that's really been my focus is creating projects that are designed for visitor experience, and really create that amazing guest experience to encourage repeat business and offer various activities, in addition to what the theme parks and zoos and farm attractions already had.
Nick Purslow:So when did you become aware of glamping as a thing and something that you wanted to get involved with?
Jason Devenish:I think I probably became aware of it just Yeah, we'll get into that later about how you you're keen on generally in the industry, just noticing that it's sort of taking off. But then we did, we did see a lot of our visitor ttraction projects, a lot of isitor attraction clients, I hould say, were starting to l ok at glamping or actually i plement glamping on their s te. So for example, one of my c ients has really great a venture parks, they've gotten a lot of large accommodation t ere. We worked with C essington World of adventures, t ey've put in Safari tents and S fari experience, there was m ny other farm attractions and z os that have done the same t ing. And I think probably what i spired me the most was when w en we were visited a c nference at Port Lypmne Safar Park, where it was actually industry event that was bein held there. But the the CEO a that time was Bob O'Connor. H gave a speech. And that reall inspired me because I could se that what they've done there wa turned around a business whic was failing and making a loss t being a complete success purel through accommodation, and ver unique accommodation. I thin they've got a range f accommodation there. But I t ink what stood out for me was hat they were they were pushing the boat out, they were raising the bar. And I think, you k ow, speaking a little bit off the top of my head here, but I t ink there was they were achie ing 600 pounds a night with so e of their treehouse accommoda ion, which was quite new i the industry, really. And th y've created very unique experi nces along with that accommoda ion, which attracted a lot of even international guests. So I hink what Bob was doing there and I know Bob very well now a d we work together on so e projects, was revolutionar, really, I think in the U. Anyway, and that's what inspir d me to get into glamping I thi k those are those ear y encounters, and also inspired e to get into glamping by raisi g the bar in the market rath r than kind of the what I wou d call campsite mentality. We we e trying to create experiences f r guests, guest experience th t you would, and using the t e methodology that you might s y would apply to a visit r attraction and the kind f actions they would need to ta e to make sure it was a destinatio avoiding the sort of cookie cutter approach as you as you termed it. So am i right in thinking that that site has like tigers and stuff? They've got tigers, they've got lions, they've got giraffes and you can actually purchase a one off experiences where you can have a picnic in the middle of the Safari, where you have the the Rangers kind of looking out for you while the wildlife graze around you. So yeah, they've done they've done a great job there with creating very good experiences and add on experience as well to the accommodation offering. So you can hire a personal chef, they've got these kind of African experiences where they'll hire in a, you know, an actual native South African, I suppose, and, and he'll tell stories and play guitar tunes around the campfire and different things like that. So they create some really cool experiences there. alongside their combination. One of my favourite things of yours that I've seen is something called Rufus' Roost, which looks like a kind of fairytale Castle in the woods. I believe you made that through a branch of your company called enchanted creations. So I'd love to hear more about that. And how Rufus' Roost is looking these days. Yeah, so so I suppose just to give you a quick background and leisure design project was originally incorporated as a sort of consultancy, I suppose for leisure destinations and or venues that saw the need to diversify. And obviously my experience in helping venues diversify, whether that'd be a golf venue, diversifying into adventure golf and growing an extra revenue stream or whether it be even a restaurant or a cafe, implementing theming you know, but creating a themed attraction that gave them additional revenue and then unique identity, or that adventure play area within a farm Park just put them on the map a bit more. So this is what we do is we create unique sign lead experiences. And I think that was my background, I set up leasure design projects, while I was still working with a company called Greenspan where they design and build a lot of these things I just mentioned, and pledged design projects as a consultancy in this area, you know, because I can I can help people discover what it is they could do, I can help develop the design for it, and help them implement it as a project. And then I got involved with a brand called enchanted creations where we started you know, this is a company that has traditionally been involved in mostly domestic projects. So rather the high end residential projects, designing and building playhouses tree houses, various bespoke garden buildings, that type of thing. And then they start getting involved in glamping as well and treehouse accommodation. And yeah, as you say, there was a project that was undertaken which was for called Rufus roost of north of York, and they've got a campsite as well. But they've got a standalone luxury seven berth treehouse up on the hill, sort of overlooking with a great view and overlooking the campsite if you like. So they got two very different offerings. They got, you know, quite accessible, good good quality campsite facilities. Within that we we built them some hobbit house pods, which weren't weren't very high end, they weren't self contained in terms of toilets and showers. They weren't necessarily insulated even but they were basically a an upgrade to somebody who may have booked a tent pitch. So nice cooking units definitely get a lot of attention, makes the destination stand out as a slightly more premium campsite, I suppose. But then very separately to that was this this treehouse that if you go on right now and try and book you won't get anything until probably February March 2022. It's completely oversubscribed. So it's been a great success for them. Yeah. And I'll add a link to that in description because it is genuinely one of the best glamping offerings I've ever seen, to be honest, completely different. I think I think what's interesting is if you look at glamping statistics, talk to any of the main booking agents, you'll see that group bookings actually make them a massive chunk now of glamping bookings. And there's not actually, you know, there's a shortage of glamping accommodation that's suitable for group bookings, within the same structure, if you like, and being a seven berth treehouse, it's also a three bed treehouse. So it's actually got two fully contained bedrooms, and one that's pretty much contained up in a mezzanine area with an additional seven bed as well. So it works very well for sort of, you know, group bookings. And I think that's why they found a unique selling point. And even though it's standalone in its own right, with only having one unit, they've managed to find a way to become oversubscribed. So we'll get into the main main sort of discussion now then. You were recently quoted in the 2021 Industry Forecast, in the section called specialisation, where we basically advocated sort of targeting a very narrow target market for glamping sites. So it can include, you know, well, you can set up like a wellbeing retreat or the party retreat or anything sort of specifically targeted towards a small group of people. In that you basically said, and I know you're, you're, you're an advocate of the sort of experiential model, so you said glamping site operators should avoid the cookie cutter approach. So I'd like to ask you to elaborate a bit more on that, please. Yeah, well, I think I think I'd say 100% I'm an advocate of the experiential approach and raising the bar in glamping, that's I've come into the market to do, and because I, I can see the magic that can be created at these destinations, I can see that actually, this is quite a unique thing, you know, when you combine, you know, the kind of luxury of a hotel room, but set right in the in the middle of nature. And you look at what the consumers are wanting, they don't want the hassle of camping, they don't want the budget, they want the luxury of hotels, and then you combine that with being really placed back into nature, or getting close to Mother Nature, I think is a brilliant recipe for a brilliant offering there. And I think, you know, give credit to all the glamping sites that exist and where I might refer to the cookie, a cookie cutter approach, you know, that's worked for, for people for years, and I think it will continue to work for, you know, within reason, I think, when you look back, and glamping is only really taken off in the last, you know, five to 10 years. And it's just as the market becomes more and more saturated like it does with any market, I firmly believe that those that differentiate those are creating experience, and raise their sights when it comes to not just the experience, but the price per night that they can achieve. And, more importantly, the longevity in the marketplace. So it's all very well saying what's going to we can achieve this much per night in year one. What about year two? What about year three? How quickly can other operators copy what you're doing, other operators in the area that can increase their offering? You know, what you want to do is trying to separate yourself from those competitors create something that's unique, so you can become what I call over subscribed, because it is unique stands out, even somebody with another unique offering that might be nearby to you. It's still very different as an experience. So you know, both can be oversubscribed, in my opinion, because they are unique. So that covers what you asked. Perfect summary. So in last week's episode, Calum and I did discuss saturation. And he mentioned you know, the importance of USPS but you you believe it should go beyond that, more than just individual USPs, it should create a full on immersive, completely unique experience. Yeah, I think what where I kind of quite often get misunderstood is that every time I mentioned what was just mentioned to you, people straightaway think, oh, that's going to be expensive. It's bespoke. So it's not for everybody. Yeah, and that's right. But I would say that it's not necessarily always expensive. You know, there's, there's, it's all about what you're going to get off the back of it. And, you know, people don't always have to be limited by their own personal savings and funds, you know, they could if they are passionate about creating something unique. And yes, it might come at a slightly more premium price point. But actually, there's plenty of funding and asset financing, other methods of funding these things, and the more the more unique it is, and the more more that you can prove that it's going to be a good business model, the more you're gonna get funding for it. So I think it's all about how you view it. And I think what Callum refers to as USPS is, is right, it's a version of what I'm saying. And I think those with more conventional glamping units and experiences. It's not like they're not going to succeed. I think I've just found a passion in the market. I'm referring to. Interesting, interesting. I mean, earlier, you referred to the to the campsite mentality and I know you're not trying to knock, you know, standard glamping sites. But do you believe that most glamping sites at the minute are really just campsites with a you know, with a bit of the wooden shed on them? Or is that being harsh? Yeah, maybe it's a bit harsh. So to that extent, but I think in effect, yes, you know, because what I think is being missed is that there's actually consumers crying out for experiences for memorable moments, instagrammable moments, you know, consumers are cash rich and time poor. And they want more and more. So as we see this experience, economy that I call it, we're in, you know, you can see, you know, where big High Street shops are closing. It's only the stores that are providing experiences or easily, if they're not providing experiences, they close down, eventually. And other experiential offerings are replacing them. So I think it's just no doubt about it, that that's the economy we're in, people looking for experiences, more and more. So looking for unique experiences. And I think what is possibly overlooked is that there's a market there that's potentially untapped. I think a lot of people have heard about glamping kind of still think of it as camping, some some people, and I think it needs to be more unique and meet the needs to be that kind of retreat that you imagine when you go into a nice high end hotel. But you're doing it in a completely different way that's actually more adventurous, more back to nature. But you're still prepared to pay for the same kind of rates, you would pay for top notch hotel. I think there's not enough in the market to satisfy that need. So you mentioned it's an opportunity. So you mentioned the word instagrammable, there, which sort of leads on to a bit of a marketing discussion. Do you believe that, I mean, I assume you believe in sort of like the power of Instagram then because as I said last in last week's episode, glamping is inherently instagrammable. It's something that people see their friends post about on social media, and they want a bit of it, whether that's hot tubs, or whatever. So do you do you think people who want to sort of provide an experiential experience, if that makes sense, should be sort of going all in on Instagram and social media marketing. I 100% agree with that, I think that's the way things are going. I think, when glamping operators are choosing their offering, they're going to go with, I think, at the very least, think about one of your structures, being something that is highly instagrammable, and can get a lot of traction. Even if you can't afford to sort of roll out, you know, with 10, luxury, crazy, bespoke looking structures, it may be worth your while, you know, going for one very unique structure. And then the remainder might not be maybe more conventional, but it's actually what you're doing there is not only are you praying a great marketing opportunity, it might be the reason people come to know you. Because Because you have got so much traction on social media or whatever, it might be the thing that can be talked about news articles, you know, when you've got five conventional damping projects, not much to talk about. Whereas if you've got one unique one, that's getting a lot of traction in the media, you can talk about that you throw it all over from a PR perspective. And that might be the reason people actually come to your site, and you that might actually increase the price of your other parts, because you're becoming known for a more premium experience. So I think, yes, I think it's important to Instagram is very important, I think it's very hard to achieve that when you've got a very similar looking, you know, wigwam style, I call them pig styes as well, sometimes, but that type of arched camping pod that everybody's seen everywhere, and it's kind of becoming a bit old. So it's quite interesting how you're basically suggesting that if you're talking about value for and money, it might actually make more sense long term to invest big in one unit, rather than spread across across like five, because A, you can get a higher rate for it and B, for a marketing budget, you can just focus on that, rather than just sort of having five standard things that won't really gain much traction online or in the media. Yes, I think so. And I think, you know, we would look at every project on its own basis. And, you know, as you would when you guys at Glampitect do your feasibility studies, we'd do the same, we'd look at the site, we'd look at the competitor analysis, we look at the planning feasibility. So a lot of what you do will be guided by that. But I just think as you make those informed decisions as creating something that's more premium, not only gives you what we just talked about that kind of hook, from a marketing perspective, but it does kind of start putting your accommodation into different price points that appeals to more of an audience. And sometimes, when people come on, and they, they might come on and look at your lower cost option, but then they kind of tempted by the high cost option, they may come and visit your low cost option. And then they kind of get to know the site might be a beautiful location, they may have had a lovely time, but then they know that they can come back for your more premium accommodation or your treehouse experience. So that also encourages repeat business. So you've got a business to run. And I don't want you to give away too many trade secrets. But could you give the audience just a couple of ideas of sort of, if they're looking to create a really experiential, I keep saying experiential experience, you know, creating a real experience, experiential destination, could you throw them maybe just some little ideas about what they might be looking for? If they want to attract, you know, a decent nightly rate and a decent number of customers? Well, I think the first thing to do is which which, which we do in our concept, design workshops and processes. You know, once we've, once we've looked at the feasibility of glamping, on that destination, not only we do look at that piece of do we undertake a feasibility with the mind that we're trying to create something special and unique, not necessarily overpriced, not over budget, not, you know, it's just, we're just coming at it from that angle. When we do our competitor analysis, you know, we we won't be just saying, oh, X Y Z down the road is achieving this price per night. So you could do the same. What we're saying is he's doing this and this one over here is doing that. So you may consider positioning yourself here. But then as soon as we finish that feasibility, what tends to happen is people tend to rush into the planning process. And I'm not against anybody who wants to keep momentum going. I think that's important, but I would just pause a little bit and go through a concept design phase. However, you know, simple it may be but where we try and help our clients create an identity for themselves. So we we look at the culture we look at the heritage we look at what the what the area's famous for we look at what even their personal dreams they might have some lovely fairy tale story they want to tell about their magical world. That's kind of, you know, fabricated, it's not necessarily to do with the culture or the heritage of the place. But what I would be looking for is trying to find a hook, that gives them an identity. And I think that's my first piece of advice is, at the very least, you know, try and arrive at something early on that you can then all your stakeholders throughout the process from thereon, your architecture planners, your your manufacturers, your you know, even the guys that do the landscaping and the infrastructure, everybody's just tied into the vision. And I think that also helps you get in funding helps you do your planning process, because it looks like you've actually thought about this business and the branding and the, you know, the, the identity that you're trying to create. And everybody can sort of believe in that. So I think that would be my first piece of advice. And then I think, secondly, I would, yeah, I would just say just be very careful about doing what everybody else is doing, you know, think about how you can be more unique, that doesn't have to be spending lots of money, it might be putting in six decent structures that I would say are a bit more thought through, maybe got some additional features, maybe just look a little bit different, maybe even look different one from the other, so that people can come back and stay in the other unit with a different features, rather than going down maybe the route of 10 very conventional units. Think about that. And think about how you can achieve your price point because then at least you can add on to that once you've kind of proved that model. So recently, you wrote a blog post, you sort of interviewed the owner of a country hotel, and you discussed the changing nature of luxury, and how the landscape is changing how traditional options like hotels are incorporating glamping into their offerings, and also how they're changing their own definitions of luxury from something where, you know, five star experience previously used to be nice beds, nice furniture, and all that sort of stuff. But now it's changed into something experiential, but also being comfortable, but also being something new and being able to associate traditional luxury with being close to nature as well. So I just like you to sort of maybe expand on on that idea and that blog post. Yeah, well, I guess we'd be looking at that market for five star hotels, country hotels, and like minded country estates and other venues. I mean, there's some, there's some lovely golf venues, I think could benefit from this. But I think as we've launched a new glamping pod into the market, which you might say, it's just it's a premium product. So I think we're looking at markets that kind of can see the benefit of that, and markets to showcase that. That actually works. So we're looking at the, the, the country hotel market, as I say, and yes, I interviewed Fiona Hill of Hampton Manor, which is based in the Midlands, a luxury boutique hotel with a Michelin star restaurant. It's very interesting what they do, and they're you know, they are creating unique foodie experience for their guests. It's almost like a foodie staycation if you know what I mean, so they you can meet the chef you can understand where the food came from. And you know, it's all very experiential around the foodie sitting around the table experience. So they're a great destination, I think they're doing well in sort of a being oversubscribed and very specific experience that they are aiming at. And I know they were thinking about putting glamping habitats into their estate. So yeah, I invited her to interview her, and she came up with some really good insights, I think it was quite reassuring. You look at the existing country hotels that have done this, I think they realised that they can actually achieve the same if not more, as a price per night for the unique experience which might be in a cabin in the kitchen garden or down by the lake or in the woodlands somewhere on their estate. That's actually just a unique experience. Like you say it's back to nature, it's something they can't get in the middle of a hotel building. I think country hotels, the benefits to them, there's quite a few, I think, you know, number one, they can take advantage of glamping as a market, which is growing as a whole. So they've got land glamping is booming, they're struggling to fill their hotel, but perhaps in the light of the current pandemic, you know, glamping is going to work on your site, you know, do it, and they've got facilities such as restaurants, possibly spa, possibly other courses or experiences that they offer, that they could bring more footfall to those existing services they offer, which might have been undersubscribed up until now, by adding additional accommodation, they're adding extra beds. I know for a fact that, you know, there's there's hotels that have to turn down contracts for, you know, events or weddings, or because they just can't facilitate the number of beds that are required. So again, that's another opportunity. Again, it's another reason that if you're going to do glamping, do it right, because that's the kind of accommodation people are looking for, something on a par with the hotel bedrooms. And then I think, you know, that's just a few of the reasons. But I think there's a lot of benefits for them, because they're kind of already used to that accommodation model and just a bolt on, if you like. It brings more footfall and taken advantage of a growing industry. And they are the right mindset to charge a decent amount per night and offer a good luxury experience. So that's why we were looking at that market. At the moment.
Nick Purslow:I'm presuming they've already got land as well. So they don't have to bother with buying, buying or anything like that.
Jason Devenish:Sure
Nick Purslow:And then to wrap things up, this is something that we like to make a regular feature of the podcast, we're going to ask each guest, if they could give one tip to anyone who runs a glamping site, or is thinking of setting one up, what would that be?
Jason Devenish:I think my tip to them would be at the feasibility and concept design stage before you before you launch into it. Just Just think, think bigger. Think about how you can create an experience. You know, there's, there's consumers out there that are pining for a premium experience, city dwellers, possibly and beyond looking for premium experience. And I think if you've got beautiful land, try and see how much you can create a beautiful experience rather than by default going down the road of a conventional solution that you might have seen applied in many instances around the country. So think about how you can create your own unique identity and create longevity in your business model for for the years to come. And that's a wrap. I hope you found Jason's comments as interesting and as thought provoking as I did. I really feel like there was some nuggets in there for anyone who wants to try something a little different with a glamping dream. Thanks again to our sponsors Made Of Bits, who are your go to for glamping pod frames. And don't forget to subscribe so you're ready for next week's episode with Gareth Edwards of Naked Flame, manufacturers of hot tubs. I look forward to seeing you then.