In this episode of (Re)Learning Leadership, Pete discusses the topic of agile transformations with Boston Consulting Group’s David Ritter. David shares insights and expertise from his 40-year career, including the difficulties around implementing agile transformation at large organizations, the courage required of those organizations’ executives, and why it is so crucial to define goals and outcomes before applying agile practices.
In this episode of (Re)Learning Leadership, Pete discusses the topic of agile transformations with Boston Consulting Group’s David Ritter. David shares insights and expertise from his 40-year career, including the difficulties around implementing agile transformation at large organizations, the courage required of those organizations’ executives, and why it is so crucial to define goals and outcomes before applying agile practices.
Leading Agile Transformations
Pete Behrens:
What should leaders know about agile transformations? Welcome to another episode of (Re)Learning Leadership, where we explore a specific leadership challenge and break it down to help improve your leadership, your organization, and, just possibly, your personal life. I'm Pete Behrens, and today I'm honored to be joined by David Ritter. David is a senior advisor at Boston Consulting Group. His 40-year career has spanned a wide range of technology, agility and leadership positions. At BCG, he advises clients on new ways of working and to use technology as a competitive advantage. I know you're going to value and enjoy our conversation, as I did.
Welcome to the show, David!
David Ritter:
Thank you. Great to be here.
Pete Behrens:
So, I've been an admirer—have been following your work for quite some time and certainly been impressed. But I think, for our listeners, I'd like them to know a little bit more about you. And so, I'd love for you to share, maybe, just a bit of your experience arc with them.
David Ritter:
Sure. And likewise, Pete! So, I've always appreciated our collaborations. So, I started as a programmer. Computer science, Georgia Tech. Came up through the ranks as a programmer in a traditional model. Then became a manager of programmers and then a manager of manager of programmers. I ran some large organizations in traditional software companies, going back into the 80s and 90s. Discovered Agile in a startup and had the opportunity to build and run Agile teams from the ground up in that context. Doing it, I would say, badly at first. But after five years, probably, getting better at it. And really, I would say, my developers teaching me what it meant to be, you know, to really empower and get, you know, get the purpose to the rock face.
Pete Behrens:
Yeah, I've definitely been there with you on that one.
David Ritter:
Yeah. So—and been in and out of consulting. So I have a, you know—I have a great desire to help shape things. I also have a great desire to help build things. So, you know, I've actually done three different stints at the Boston Consulting Group, starting first in 1998. And then I left to do a startup, and then I rejoined it in 2002, and then it came back, and then I left it to do another startup for five years. But for the last eleven years, I've been at BCG, helping organizations essentially apply Agile principles, new ways of working, to help them very often build software better. But increasingly, these days, in other areas as well. In marketing operations, wherever iterative test and learn makes sense, which—turns out a lot of the work that we do makes sense, as I know you discovered as well. And that's been a great journey. We've had an opportunity through BCG, obviously, working with some of the largest, best companies in the world that still struggle with these things. So, you know, happy to bring some of that experience to bear.
Pete Behrens:
Yeah. Well, I certainly appreciate that. And I often hear from some of the consulting firms, right? It's my best first, third, and fifth job, right? You come back into those. And they often welcome you. I think—the consulting firm sometimes, I think, from our kind of niche Agile coaching community, get a bad rap, right? I think we like to pick on them, probably from a bit of jealousy, but also maybe from a legitimacy of coming in more in that traditional directive change. Versus, maybe, I think, the way we would see ourselves: more coaching change. What do we get wrong about consulting firms like BCG, and how would you counter that argument, in terms of how they're working in the Agile space with these kinds of transformations?
David Ritter:
Well, I listened to your podcast episodes on Agile scaling. And one of the things that I've shared with you before, that you say in there, is—you know, in a lot of the training that goes on around, Agile leadership—what you hear is, “I wish my boss was here to hear this, right?” So, what firms like BCG bring to the table is the relationship at the C-suite level and the credibility to tell them, “Look, wake up! You know, what got you here is not going to get you there. You really need to fundamentally rethink.” And very often, we are able to intervene at a time when the company is facing a burning platform that actually sets up the context for change. This stuff is hard, right? Taking a large organization and getting them to break down the functional silos and really apply Agile principles in a way that makes a significant difference. It's really hard. You've got to have the leadership team aligned behind that change, and I think that that's one of the core things that BCG brings.
Just also, you know, the change management capability, right? And, you know, you can argue which firm is better than the others. BCG has a great track record in actually driving large transformations of many kinds: post-merger integrations, digital transformations, etc. Over our history, you know, we've been able to understand how to promulgate change in organizations. We have great tools like “Ready, Willing, and Able” that is a standard toolkit that we use to help bring the entire organization along in a change journey. So, I think those, kind of, basic capabilities actually bring a lot to the table. And we've been running our engagements in Agile, maybe not explicitly under those terms. But increasingly, now, when we engage with a client, we do it in Agile. And we explicitly use Agile. You know, we actually run Scrum very often, or Kanban, as with joint teams with our clients. So, we form joint teams. And we've done this for 60 years now, but we've gotten a little more structured and formal around it, using the Agile toolkit more explicitly. So, you know, in that sense, it's almost naive for us to think and work this way.
Pete Behrens:
Well, that's awesome to hear. You know, we often—I often like to use the term, right? We use Agile to be agile, right? We take those agile principles and apply them to transformation. I mean, it's—I'm still amazed how many executives drive agile transformation in a traditional project plan. And it's, just, fundamentally, kind of, just ingrained in our executive process. Do you find resistance to that approach, in terms of the transformation?
David Ritter:
Absolutely. And look, I wish I could say we were always successful, you know. But, you know, when we're not, you know, we face these questions all the time. You know, a lot of specific examples. When can we get rid of these coaches? So, these agile coaches. Like, you know, and I say, like, “So, do football teams fire their coaches after they preseason and just let the players play?
Pete Behrens:
Of course they do!
David Ritter:
Yeah, so, you know, this is—the tendency for organizations to revert to the norm is incredibly, incredibly strong.
What do consulting organizations get wrong? The large consulting organizations—very often they don't stay around long enough to really embed the change. And, you know, I think where you read about the stories about, you know, failed agile transformations—I think, very often, there's a certain lack of, I would say—I'll use the word courage—I would say to really, you know, at the executive, team level. And also, in some cases, in the consulting organizations, to say, you know, there are things we're willing to get fired for, you know? And to basically be able to tell folks, “If you're not going to embrace this in a way, that will be persistent, you're going to end off worse than you were. Because you're going to set an expectation with your organization, and then you're not going to meet it.”
Pete Behrens:
Yeah. Well—and you're reminding me—an executive was asking me once, like, “When are we going to land this plane?” You know, and it, kind of—that project-end milestone, of, “Okay, this project's over.” And, you know, you say courage. I agree. I also say patience, right? That—the concept of an investment that has to be reinvested, right? The dividends. Reinvest those earnings over and over to really build that win takes a patience that I think a lot of executives don't have. Or maybe they're just not even given, you know, in the fast-paced change world.
David Ritter:
Fundamental to me is the continuous improvement mindset, right? And that's really getting that landed, you know, despite, whatever, 40 years of history. The Toyota production system, you know. All work is an experiment. The continuous improvement mindset with your teams and at the executive level. You know, if you don't get there, then you're not going to have the patience, you know, or just the notion that we always need to get better and that the transformation process is continuous, not discrete.
Pete Behrens:
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I know you come from a much more technical background, as I do, and have focused a lot on digital transformation, technical transformation. How do you differentiate agile transformation from digital? Because I think, from a lot of organizations, I see those get merged, those get combined. But are they different things? How do you differentiate? Talk to me a little bit more about that landscape, when you're connecting those with Agile.
David Ritter:
Yeah, for sure. So, the—one of the CIOs at a very large company asked me—who kind of squinted. And I think he was testing me. He said, “So, like, is Agile an end in itself, or is it a means to an end?” And I said, “Is that a trick question?” Of course Agile is a means to an end.” Agile is a how, right? And in that sense, digital is often the why and the what. So, where do we start these conversations? You know, we're behind on digital, right? Our competitors are killing us because they are better at digital. They are moving faster. They're more responsive to their customers. They are more customer-focused and are delivering value to customers faster. You know, our mobile app is terrible; theirs is great, right? Why is that—how did we get here, right? Why—how did we get so far behind? What are they doing that we're not, right? So, the digital agenda, when tied into, really, goals like being more customer-centric, driving better self-service, higher customer satisfaction, you know, through better interactions, better understanding of customers through customer data. You know, agile is the way that you can focus resources around those outcomes in a way to achieve them. So, you know, you need a why. You need a compelling why, at least, you know, an aspiration to be great, if not a burning platform. Like, you know, the house is on fire, and we really need to rethink things.
Pete Behrens:
That's interesting. You know, we were working with an organization. And very similarly—right?—their why was about, “We've got to innovate—right?—the Insurtech space is, you know, transforming faster than we are, right? The mobile, the quick response times, right? The ability to do the—leverage AI Technologies—right?—to help, you know, solve problems.” But it was interesting because we focused on just the concept of innovate. How do we innovate? And technology was one piece of it. But you've kind of replaced that to say, “Well, yes, innovate!” But digital, or the technical, kind of comes on the surface of that.
David Ritter:
Innovate for what purpose, right? So, this is where it's very interesting. I think, you know, if you read Eric Reese's books, right? You know, in the first one, he kind of says, “You should have a group that does innovation and then hands stuff off.” And I think, in his second book, he kind of says, “Yeah, it turns out that's kind of a mistake!” Right? [Laughs]
Pete Behrens:
You’re talking about the Lean Startup stuff. Yes.
David Ritter:
Exactly, yeah. Lean Startup and the—I forget the name of the sequel. But, you know, that end-to-end responsibility for everybody to innovate around an outcome. And so, this is where, you know—when we start these conversations, we say, “What do you want to achieve, right?” Ben Stein said, you know, the first step in understanding, in getting what you want out of life, is to figure out what you want. Right? So, to—and to articulate that in a structured way, you know? A particular—I'll call it a technology that we use. You might call it a recipe that we use these days—as OKRs. We, you know—the conversation we have with the executives around that is—OKRs bring clarity and focus to goal-setting, the way that Scrum and Agile bring clarity, focus, transparency, to work, right? It's a method.
And, you know, in and of itself, it doesn't create value, but it's through that conversation where you get alignment at the executive level. Like, you know, we want to grow this part of the business. And how are our resources aligned against that? Who—how does that translate into actual working team structure, cross-functional working team structure? We call this outcome-driven team design, right? Set your outcomes at a high level, cascade them down to the point where you've got them at a reasonable level of granularity. And then you do this trick where you rotate the world 90 degrees, and you say, “Let's pretend those outcomes are teams.” And you ask this question, “Who would we need to put on those teams in order to achieve that outcome?” That's where you get this alignment that cascades into the organization and really gives you—that you can answer the question, “How are resources aligned against our goals?”
And so—and all of that involves innovation. Because the how of achieving those goals is pushed down to the teams. The teams come back and say, “This is how we will pursue this goal.” Everybody will have a point-of-view about the approach. The word that we inject into that conversation, which we think is really, really helpful is—everybody's ideas, including the teams’, about how to achieve the goal—they are hypotheses.
Pete Behrens:
Yeah, we love that—love that word. One of the things I think the consulting firms do, help executives, leaders with, is probably a little bit more of the clarity in that goal. I think a lot of us in the niche community come in this: “Let's just get better.” Right? It's a bit amorphous. And I think, in some ways, that's great to create that empowerment. But other ways, I think, leaders can feel a little lost, you know? I think that's some of the reason these recipes are so valuable and safe—is seen as such an important step. Because it gives a little bit more direction. I think that balance is really critical, right? How do you give a bit more direction but still leave that room for, you know, creativity and innovation in the company itself?
David Ritter:
Balance is the hardest thing, you know? If you're riding a horse, you can fall off the left side of the horse. You fall off the right side of the horse, right? The key is—how do you stay on the horse? And this is the hardest thing, I think, for—particularly for large organizations—is to maintain that balance between the role of the center and the empowerment of the teams. This—you know, in Spotify terms, this is alignment and autonomy. Which are not, you know—it's not a zero-sum game. You need both. It's within the guard rails; it's within the alignment that teams can really innovate. And getting that balance right, shifting it over time making teams more empowered and then maintaining that. It's really, really hard, and it requires a constant vigilance over ensuring that the people on the teams are the ones that you're really listening to. So, when they say, “This is what we can achieve in a given period of time.” When the team says that, the executives don't say, “Yeah, you can do better.” Right? There's all kinds of examples of that.
Pete Behrens:
Yeah. So, do you have an example, or how would you highlight who's doing this well? Like, where do we see success happening with digital agile transformation?
David Ritter:
Well, obviously, the folks that started off, you know, with, you know, more of a white space. And this technology was a little bit better understood. You know, the digital natives obviously do this well. We spent a lot of time looking at Amazon. But even Amazon underwent major transformations. You know, I think, you know, we cite the, you know, the famous Bezos API memo, right? And you've talked about this as well. Which basically said, “Okay, if you're going to build a service, you have to think of that as a product, and you have to build it just as though we're going to sell it outside the company, even if your primary customers are internal, right? And that is a mandate.”
I think of, you know, the work that you did at Salesforce, right? So, the establishment of what they call V2MOMs, right? Vision, values, methods, obstacles, and measures—right?—as a way to drive clarity and alignment of what we're trying to achieve. Purpose and outcomes through the organization, all the way down to the rock face, right? These are folks that really do this well. You know, the famous story of ING bank is one that—where I've had a lot of personal involvement. So, this can obviously happen in traditional businesses as well.
I really liked when you talked in your podcast around scaling. You talked about, sort of, top-down versus bottom-up. You talk about, you know, games that leaders play versus games that teams play. And it's interesting, because ING is actually an example. And you talked about—so, Spotify model is sort of an example of a game that teams play that leaders may not. Actually the ING transformation started with taking the ING leadership team to Spotify and sitting them down with the Spotify folks. And the Spotify folks basically said to the bankers—they said, like, “What are you willing to give up, in terms of your control, in order to make this happen?” Right? And that stuck with them, you know, in a profound way. So they got the leaders on board to the Spotify model of alignment versus alignment and autonomy both, right? Breaking compromise between alignment and autonomy. And that worked out very well.
We've also seen examples where SAFe involved bottom-up. We worked with a pharmaceutical company where SAFe started in their manufacturing group. And then it spread from there because they saw success in that area and they were able to—one of the executives said to me—so I said, “So, why SAFe? Why are you using SAFe?” And he said, “Because our executives can Google it, and they see that it's a thing. [Laughs] And they, therefore, will have some confidence that, you know, we're not just making this up, and it's some weird cult.” So, I think that this—the notion that these things have to happen both top-down and bottom-up is really critical. And it's organizations that can do that. ING is a great example.
I would say, for most organizations, it's tough to do it at that scale, particularly top-down. Most of it bubbles bottom-up, and it takes years. And it may start in IT, or it may start in marketing. The question, really, is—at some point, do you have a leader that is willing to say, “You know, we're going to bet on this”?
Pete Behrens:
Bingo. Bingo. So, what I'm hearing you say is—it can go both ways. It can go wrong both ways. And there's—so there's some characteristic in those organizations that are successful, that's enabling that trigger from—it's almost like a permeation between those two layers. Somebody's got to cross that bridge and get that into the executive, or get whatever's going on the executive, effectively working down below, without feeling oppressive, right? Because we've seen that happen, too. It just gets pushed.
David Ritter:
Right.
Pete Behrens:
What is it in the culture? What is it in the leadership mindset? How do you approach—I guess, at BCG, how do you get that transfer happening? Because that, to me, is probably the sweet spot in success.
David Ritter:
Yeah. I mean, overall, it's about listening, right? And it's really the ability of the organization to listen and to have some humility—right?—to be in a learning mindset in a continuous improvement mindset. I would say, you know—I'll drop down to, like, a very specific tactical practice that we try to insist on. So if you are a leader in an organization that is doing Agile—and generally speaking, you know, I talk about these big, sort of, top-down big bang transformations. That is the exception, right? The rule is—they start with three teams, right? And they want to—they need to see it. It needs to be proven.
So, you're a leader in an organization that's beginning to run Agile teams, go to sprint reviews. Go to sprint review. And, yes, it's like, “I'm a busy person. I'm, you know—I’m the CEO of a big company!” You know? Go to a sprint review. And, you know, take, allocate, one or two hours a week to go to sprint reviews. Pick some things that you're interested in; go to a team sprint review. When you go to that sprint review, ask questions. I have, sort of, one canonical question that I try to plant in the seeds of these leaders. If you ask no other questions, ask this question: “How do you know”—asking the team—“how do you know the work you're doing is likely to achieve your result, your outcome? Not your output, but your outcome, right? How do you know? What evidence do you have? What have you learned along the way? How do you know?” And listen to them. Because what you'll hear there is—you will hear some evidence, but you also hear risk. You'll hear issues. And then the next question is: “What barriers can I remove for you? How can I help?” Right?
And if you create a few examples of that, those leaders will go back to the staff meeting of the CEO, and they will talk about this. Well, the CEO says, “So, what's going on with your Agile pilot?” They will talk about this. And they'll say, you know, “I went to the sprint review, and here's what I heard from the team. I saw real progress, right? I saw, actually—they showed me work that was in progress, but was clearly moving in the right direction. And they showed me that they had data and evidence that they—that the work that they were doing was actually going to achieve the goal, not just the delivery, the check-box of the output, but the thing. I saw that—and, you know what? You know, I have more confidence and understanding now. And I actually feel more comfortable stepping back from that team. Because I know that, you know, I can go any—every two weeks, I can go, and I can see. And they don't need to read out to me. I can see what they're doing.” And that transparency is what builds the trust. That's the virtuous cycle—right?
Creating those little stories—it—you know, we had one of the largest financial institutions in the world. We had a guy come in who was—he was a seasoned—he was like a N-minus-four leader in the organization. He came into the steering committee for the agile transformation. And he said—I’ll try to quote him as best I can. He said, “When I heard about this Agile thing, I thought it was the stupidest thing I ever heard in my life! But I've been trying to do this thing for three years. I've been trying to accomplish this goal for three years, and I've been making absolutely no progress.” So I said, “Okay, fine. We'll do this Agile pilot.” In three months: “We've made more progress against this goal than we had in the three years prior! I never want to work any other way!” That was the tipping point. Because what that created, you know—it's—a lot of this is about emotion. It created, I would say envy, maybe, among his peers. But also fear, in the sense of—it's sort of like FOMO. It's like, “Oh, I want some of that! How do I get some of that?” This is how these bottom-up things can gain traction. You have to prove it. And it's in those crucibles that that trust is forged.
Pete Behrens:
I feel like you've boiled down crossing the barrier into just one simple step. Executive: visit the team. And through that, the relationship, the transparency, the potential vulnerability of sharing risk and success—right?—the both/and there. And just, the communication connection that's happening to build that relationship. That’s what I think is missing between these two games, is—they don't do enough of that. They play in these separate teams and games, and they don't cross over enough.
David Ritter:
Absolutely. So, you know, when we talk about team design in a large organization—I'll give you an example. So, 4,000 people in this wealth management firm, five layers, in terms of the operating team structure. Starting with the business unit, president—that's layer one. Then what they call domain leads, which were teams of teams of teams, so groups of, like, 500. Then teams of teams, which you might call tribes, right? Then product owners at the team-level. And team members. 4,000 people, five layers. Everything worked that way. So flat, flat, flat.
If you're in a manufacturing company, if you're the CEO of a manufacturing company, you walk the factory floor. If you're an effective CEO, you go to the factory, and you walk the floor. You talk to the people operating the machines. Like, “What's going on?” If you're in retail, if you're a retail CEO, you go to your stores, you walk—you have to be close to the work. And so, getting flat structurally helps you do that. But then, also, it's the behavior. Like, two hours a week, go to sprint reviews. Your eyes will be open, and you will understand this at a level that your peers won't.
Pete Behrens:
Yeah. One of my favorite visits with a senior leadership team this past year was joining them on their manufacturing tour. And going all throughout Europe, every day—spending a day at a different plant. And I was fortunate—they invited me to two of those days and spent a half-day to educate them as well. But the management, by walking around, the Gemba Walks, and conversations, right? The—just the opportunity to put a spotlight on what's going on, its problems, challenges, right? And then doing that day over day. And then, at night, they got on a bus, go to the next one, right? And so, then there's this whole team unity that's going on there, too. And these—they're coming from China and Brazil and, you know, Europe and US, Canada, right? They're coming from all over. And they're all, kind of, taking this little, this bus tour. And it was just really fascinating to see how much connection—in that one week, right? How much connection I was able to make. And, yes, some of this is manufacturing, but some of this is design and development and, you know, technical that's harder to see. And I know for many companies that work on a global scale, to think about that seems overwhelming, yet the power is so incredible.
David Ritter:
We would say it's essential. So, do you know the show Undercover Boss?
Pete Behrens:
Yeah!
David Ritter:
Right? So—and this is a core part of it as well, and, I think, why Agile Leadership Journey is so critical, right? It's—because how you show up in those settings is absolutely vital. You shouldn't have to go undercover in order to understand what's going on in your organization. You need to be able to show up in a way that's not intimidating. And that's the—you know, some folks would say servant leadership. A lot of organizations aren't comfortable with that terminology, but it's the upside-down pyramid. I saw a presentation by this guy who was the CEO of Home Depot during their transformation. That's what he said: “You know, my transformation as a leader was looking at the pyramid upside-down—right?—with me at the bottom and my sales associates on the store floor at the top. That's—my job is to make them successful, right?” And that's—this is basic stuff, but it's incredibly amazing how uncommon it is. And, you know, the average tenure of a CEO is, whatever, three years these days, right? It's that—I think, the two terms we've arrived at, right? Courage and persistence. It's so tough to get those in combination.
Pete Behrens:
So, without the answer of, you know, “Hire David!” or “Hire BCG!”, what advice would you give to a leader that is looking to undertake this kind of significant transformation?
David Ritter:
So, the first conversation I would want to say is, “Let's pick a key outcome that you want to achieve. And let's have a conversation about who's working on that and how are they working on it.” And this gives you the opportunity to, kind of, take a core sample through the organization. So—and we talked about top-down versus bottom-up in another place, where this intersection can really occur—is in taking that, a top-level goal, we want to grow the profitability of this business unit by x percent over three years and drill that down. And say, “Where is that specifically going to come from? What products is that going to come from?” And there's the cascade, and then there's also this concept of laddering, which is the bottom-up process. It's talking to the people in the organization, saying, “Oh, so, what is—why is this not growing faster than it is?”
If you read the OKR literature, they'll say the process should be 50 top-down and 50 bottom-up, cascading and laddering and meeting in the middle. We would say it should be 70 percent top-down and 70 percent bottom-up. [Laughs]
Pete Behrens:
I love it.
David Ritter:
Because it's, like, the 40 percent—it’s the 40 percent overlap that is actually where that occurs. So it's actually—sometimes, these conversations don't touch on Agile at all, until you get to that point where you say, “Okay, here's a part of that goal. Like, this product is not being successful. You know, there are issues with this product. In order to grow that product, let's take that goal of growing that product in that market.”
So, a consumer goods company—one of their key goals was—they had a brand of shampoo that—they wanted to triple the market share of that shampoo in India. Great. Over two years. Terrific. Who's on that team? You're going to create a team. We're going to design a team whose goal is to do that. And the issues may be there—may be three different kinds of issues. There may be a formulation issue. Maybe the product isn't ideally designed for that market. Maybe there's a distribution issue, where it's not in the right stores. There's probably also a supply chain problem, where you can't actually reliably deliver it because you have supply chain constraints in that market. So in order to solve that, you need all three of those things. So that team needs skill-sets around all three of those. Let's create that team.
Pete Behrens:
Two things I'm taking away from that. Number one: simply pay attention to something, right? Give—have an intention that you're focusing on. What you're saying is: we've got to put a spotlight on that. We've got to gather people around that and look at it. The second thing that I've taken away from that is—I love your metaphor of the—“It's not 50/50; it's 70/70, right?” You're explicitly providing that overlap of intersection. And that, to me, is a new way of thinking about the two games we play.
David Ritter:
Yeah, so, that was really insightful. You know, somebody should write a book called, Start With Why. [Laughs]
Pete Behrens:
Yeah, I'll work on that one!
David Ritter:
Yeah. So, yeah, there's a book—that's an example of a book that you only need to read the title. Another one of those—which I really like—is The One Thing. I don't know if you've seen this. I was walking through the airport one day and looking at the book kiosk in the airport. And there's this book; it says The One Thing. And I say, “I know what that book's about! I don't need to read it.” Basically, it's 200 pages that says, “If you let people focus on one thing at a time, they are dramatically more productive.” Right? But it's, you know, just, like, easy to say, hard to do.
Pete Behrens:
Same thing I saw when I was looking at the book Take the Stairs. It's, like, just put in the effort. Put in the effort. Take the stairs.
David Ritter:
Yeah. I like that!
Pete Behrens:
Well, David, I just want to say thank you. I feel smarter today, having talked with you about this and shared this dialogue. So, I appreciate you joining us and sharing your stories.
David Ritter:
Absolutely, yeah. Happy to do it.
(Re)Learning Leadership is the official podcast of the Agile Leadership Journey. Together, we build better leaders. It’s hosted by me, Pete Behrens, with contributions from our global Guide community. It’s produced by Ryan Dugan. With music by Joy Zimmerman. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave us a review, or share a comment. Visit our website, agileleadershipjourney.com/podcast, for guest profiles, episode references, and transcripts, and to explore more about your own leadership journey.