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THE SJ CHILDS SHOW-Building a Community of Inclusion
🎙️ Welcome to The SJ Childs Show Podcast! 🎉
Join Sara Bradford—better known as SJ Childs—as she bridges understanding and advocacy for the neurodivergent community. This podcast shines a light on autism awareness, empowering stories, expert insights, and practical resources for parents, educators, and individuals alike.
Brought to you by The SJ Childs Global Network, a nonprofit dedicated to supporting autistic individuals and their families worldwide, this show is your weekly dose of inspiration and actionable ideas. Visit sjchilds.org to learn more about our mission, find resources, and connect with our growing community.
Catch us on platforms like Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Goodpods—or tune in Fridays at 8:30 AM EDT on the Helium Radio Network’s Life Improvement Radio (Channel 1). Together, let’s foster a brighter, more inclusive world! 🌟
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https://sjchilds.myshopify.com/
THE SJ CHILDS SHOW-Building a Community of Inclusion
Episode 307-Navigating ADHD in Women: A Conversation with Dr. Gilly Kahn
Dr. Gilly Kahn brings a refreshing perspective to our understanding of ADHD, particularly in women, through her dual expertise as both a clinical psychologist and someone with lived experience. Her powerful reframing of ADHD not as an attention deficit but as an "overabundance of attention" challenges conventional thinking about neurodiversity in ways that will resonate deeply with listeners.
What makes this conversation particularly valuable is how Dr. Kahn bridges the gap between clinical knowledge and authentic human experience. She vividly describes the ADHD mind as having "a 1920s Great Gatsby party in your brain while trying to do homework" – an image that perfectly captures the overwhelming sensory and cognitive experience many with ADHD navigate daily. This isn't just theoretical understanding; it's rooted in compassion and lived reality.
The discussion takes us through several critical topics: misconceptions about ADHD (particularly how hyperfocus on interesting activities doesn't disprove ADHD), the science behind medication options (including fascinating research on neuropromotion), and how neurodivergent brains process information differently as "field-dependent learners." Throughout, Dr. Kahn maintains a balanced approach, acknowledging that while research strongly supports certain interventions, treatment choices remain deeply personal.
Perhaps most powerfully, Dr. Kahn shares insights from her upcoming book "Allow Me to Interrupt," which launches September 9th. The Shakespeare-inspired work promises to illuminate the emotional realities of women with ADHD in ways that both validate their experiences and educate others. Her parting advice resonates as both scientific conclusion and profound wisdom: "They don't know you as well as you know yourself." For anyone navigating neurodiversity – whether personally or supporting others – this conversation offers both practical understanding and the courage to trust your own experience despite external judgment or misunderstanding.
The SJ Childs Show is Backford's 13th season. Join Sarah Brafford and the SJ Childs Show team as they explore the world of autism and share stories of hope and inspiration. This season we're excited to bring you more autism summits featuring experts and advocates from around the world.
Speaker 2:Go to sjchildsorg hey everyone.
Speaker 3:I wanted to take a second to talk to you about the International Autism Summit coming up in April April 25th and 26th. It's going to be streaming free from all of my channels. If you haven't already gone to follow me, go to sgchildsorg. Click on any of the social media icons and go follow me so that you can be with us at the International Autism Summit 2025, april 25th and 26th. Can't wait to see you then.
Speaker 3:Hello and thank you for joining the SJ Child Show today. I am really excited I know those are my first words of every single show. I'm really excited to have this conversation today, but I really have been waiting. We had something set up and it didn't work out for lots of schedules. Life, life, life isn't that the case, but we met on the Mental Health Network I think that's what it's called podcast, with Adam Duvall. He's out of the UK and he has like a panel podcast. That's really interesting and they have great discussions and that's I'm pretty sure that's the first time that I met you is that we were on a panel together. And for those of you listening and not watching, today I am sitting down with Dr Gilly Khan. I hope I pronounced everything correctly. Please let me know if I didn't.
Speaker 4:So let me, can I tell you, just in case you want to know. So the pot, the podcast, and the reason I'm bringing it up is because I'm doing like part time paneling for the podcast now. So if they see me on this and they're like why didn't you correct her, I don't want them to be mad. So it's called Health Warriors Podcast.
Speaker 3:Yes, thank you. Yes, and it has like a hand or something as its logo, a hand print, I guess you could say. And they really do great discussions and cover a wide variety and have some great experts and guests on the show to discuss a variety of mental health, and here today we are going to dive deeper into your work and getting to know you a little bit more. So let's start with an introduction. Let us know you know you a little bit more. So let's start with an introduction. Let us know you know a little bit about yourself and kind of what brought you here.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that question is never going to cease to make me right. It's only two hours later.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, yeah. So I'm Dr Gilly Kahn. I'm a clinical psychologist, a mom and a writer and now newly an author of a book, and I practice in Atlanta, georgia, but I also see people around the United States and some other states via telehealth. My work specializes in neurodiversity and emotional dysregulation and specific population. Like most of the people I work with are teens and their families, and I love writing. I love reading anything within the area of psychology. It's totally my special interest and I have two little ones and, yeah, I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 3:Yay, it's so nice to have you too, and what a great discussion, because there's just so many facets that we can touch on parenting and the services you provide, the book, which I'm really excited to get, one for myself, number one and also, you know, really dive deeper into what you know drove you to do that. What was the I have to do this? I'm going to get it done. So let's start with your family and how that's been supporting you in your work, that you're doing in your journey, and what does that look like raising two kids and being a psychologist.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean it has definitely been all over the place, I know as it would be for, like any adult with ADHD, but especially, you know, as a mom. And you know, before earning my PhD, I also earned a master's in experimental psychology. So I was in school for a really long time and I mean the reason for that is because, okay, so for an undergraduate, I majored in psychology and creative writing Before college. I wanted to be a writer, I just wanted to write books. And as I got closer and approached college and deciding, you know, what should I major in, I felt that, you know, banking on a writing career was too risky and the books I was reading were, oh, I loved Stephen King, anything with a psychological twist or bend to it.
Speaker 4:And I was taking the AP Psych class, and so I just decided I love psychology too, so I'm going to start by majoring in psychology, psychology too. So I'm going to start by majoring in psychology. And I just started with a major psychology minor in English lit. And then, while I was in college, I just decided I cannot live without creative writing. It's just, you know, woven into my very being, and so I just added it as a. So I bumped up the English lit minor to a creative writing major, so I majored in both.
Speaker 4:But you know, psychology is, if you want to be a psychologist you can. You know you can get become a therapist, like a mental health counselor, or you can become like a social worker and get a master's worker and get a master's. But I really I wanted to commit to kind of making it till the end and getting a PhD in clinical psychology. And I think one thing about people who are neurodivergent, people with ADHD, is like, once they make a decision, I think especially women we are. You know and I talk about this in the book we're stubborn. You finished the sentence.
Speaker 3:Right, right, exactly no, there's no stopping us, and I couldn't agree more yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I just I set that goal, I made that decision. It was rigid and so I applied the first time around. But you know, it was perfectionistic and I only applied to the best programs that only accepted one student or five students every application cycle. So I didn't get in and so at that point I had to take a detour and I decided I would do a master's in experimental psychology, beef up my CD and then try again. And so I did that and it was a great experience and I learned a lot.
Speaker 4:I did a lot of research and I think one thing you learn as you kind of move forward professionally is that you know you make the most of your experiences, and I'm sorry to sound cliche, but sometimes things happen for a reason, yeah, you know, because you meet people on your detour who end up helping you down the line. So it felt that way to me. So I did that and then I reapplied and I got in. I applied to 15 programs. I was accepted to one and I interviewed it a lot like. I got a lot of interviews, you know, and I was very close with a few of them. But then it becomes complicated, you know, things are kind of out of your hands like, oh, this person lost funding, or you know this one, I don't know another reason that's kind of out of your control. So I ended up at Nova and was very happy there and completed my PhD and ended up extending because I had my daughter, which was planned, and so everything just took a really long time.
Speaker 4:So it did require, like a lot, a lot of support from my husband because financially, you know, he was kind of carrying the family and he still is. In terms of, like you know, income, financial disparity I think it's the case in most households the male is earning more than the female. But, you know, in our case it has been okay. And then, especially this year, because for a while I was just, you know, it was about finishing becoming a psychologist, starting to work, and for a year or two it was more stable.
Speaker 4:And then, you know, I got to a point where I said, okay, I'm ready to, you know, dive into my creative writing interest and, you know, accomplish that other goal that I had, to publish a book. And that's going to slow you down, you know, because you're spending half your time, you know, not seeing clients but basically taking a risk. It's like if you start a business, you know you don't know if it's going to be successful. You just know that you love it and that you would regret you. I can't speak. You would regret it if you didn't try it. So yeah, um, that brings me to today.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love it. I love it. It's so important. I wouldn't I don't know where I would be without my husband's support, and I think that you and him would get along so well because he is also like a lover of Stephen King books and he wrote, you know, he gave me that great quote to tell you the other day. He's just a really intuitive and caring person and so he really puts a lot of just what he says is just truth, and I think that that could either hit people really hard and really, you know, smack them across the face, or it can be so touching and heartwarming. And so I guess it's your perception and how you've been approached by this truth, but I think that it's. It's so, it's so lovely that way.
Speaker 3:But the support that you know, when we found out I was going to need to stay home with a profoundly autistic child, there was no other really option than to give up my careers. And well, I mean, we could have, yes, found options, but we both want. I wanted to stay home. I was already in my thirties before I had gotten pregnant, so I was already older and, like, had had career time, if you will, and I was a research paralegal for a long time. So I really appreciate that element of being, of knowing how to do research and really understanding the importance of it. And I think that it's a lot of people you see like, oh, how do I do this? And you're like, oh my gosh, just go to the Google search bar and find an answer, right. But I think that it's kind of like, if you don't, if you haven't been down that road and given the tools, and you don't know that you have those tools available. So it's fascinating. But he also supports us here and I couldn't be more grateful. But I really see how much support it's given me to okay, well, what do I want to do with my time that you know that I have here? Not that it's not busy outside of this office, but it's really given me the opportunity.
Speaker 3:Especially during COVID, I thought, oh, man, like this is more isolating than ever before. And when I got to start the podcast, it was like this door that just opened and all of these people were, you know, in there and I could meet with everyone. And oh, what a lovely thing to be able to do. And he did the same thing for me. He was like, oh my gosh, get the sign set up, all this. He set up everything. He's like my interior designer too. And yeah, just to really like he's set up everything. He's like my interior designer too, um, and yeah, just to really like he was like I know that you are like. He always just sees the best in me, you know. And he's like I know what I see and I'm going to create that, um, for you, my vision.
Speaker 4:So I just I'm like, okay, I can, you know I can roll with that so I just I'm like, okay, I can, you know I can roll with that, yeah. Yeah, I think it's a matter also of, I guess, like um, proving yourself. You know, yeah, like um, if you can show someone that you're really dedicated to something and, um, you're really going to carry it through, you know, till the end, which is hard for people with ADHD. But but you know, the way I like to explain it is, in a sense, it's kind of a numbers game, like you're going to try a lot of things in life. Some of them fall through, but then other things succeed. But if you can show that, like, some of these things do succeed, you know they are successful, then you know, I think people are generally more open to supporting and helping you and believing you.
Speaker 3:And you know, that reminded me of something I heard, it feels like, just yesterday. Somebody say if you don't try, then you are already failing. Like you, either try and you fail or succeed, or you fail, that's it. So why not try a little bit and take a little risk sometimes? But I mean, do your due diligence, be smart about your risk taking if you can be. But of course, there's just, you know, there's so many opportunities. What do you think? Going back and backwardsing into the past as a child, how did writing and this love of writing and reading, how did that happen for you? Was it, you know, nurtured by your parents, like siblings, that you watched family or mentors? How did that take shape?
Speaker 4:That's a good question. So my mom passed away when I was four from breast cancer and she was an artist before she passed and my house. I can show you one here.
Speaker 3:Raise it up a little, a little bit more Sorry. No, you're good're good, oh, that's lovely, and that's the small one.
Speaker 4:You should see, like I mean huge. I have some oil painting, oil, yes, wow, um and anyway. So that that was her thing. She was an artist and um, thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 3:That's so sweet. I love that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and she also wrote. She loved writing too and she wrote a children's book and she didn't get to publish it but she illustrated it. She wrote the entire book and then my grandmother published it in her honor after she passed away. But she loved writing too. Like I have some old things that she wrote. Actually, while she was in the Israeli military she used to write my dad love notes on the military computer and write poetry.
Speaker 3:What a special gift that you are able to see. I think love letters are just so special. I have a couple notes, you know, just even from my parents when I was little, or my husband when we were first dating. It'll be 21 years this year, so it's just so, just such a touching, touching sentiment to be able to share.
Speaker 4:Granted, there are also letters to like her ex-boyfriends and stuff.
Speaker 3:I guess context is good. Well, that's funny. Yeah, I guess we have to, you know, go through that. The other relationship said is pretty funny though.
Speaker 4:The full human being, right, yeah, and apparently very, very interesting and things I didn't know and I only learned recently. But yeah, in terms of, like my love it wasn't that I really observed anyone because I was four when she passed away, but I didn't really understand, I guess, what her interests were. I think it's, you know, I really think it's just genetic, like I, you know, just loved it. I just picked it up and it was just something I did for fun. I would just write stories and I would read them to my friends over the phone, like the home telephone.
Speaker 3:Oh man, the good old days, isn't that true? I love to write stories when I was younger too, and I think that it really maybe goes to show the imagination, the creative source, or maybe even openness to being curious about things that are not just attainable through. You know one thing, because when you're creating a story, you're bringing so many different ideas to life and, um, it can be both wonderful, magical, vulnerable, it can be terrifying, especially when you go to publish it and you know, and then you've poured your heart and soul into things, but it is terrifying that's exactly the word to describe it.
Speaker 4:Like I just sent it to a few like readers recently and was been like on the edge of my seat waiting for feedback and someone responded and was like Gilly, this book is so good. And I was like, oh, I can breathe.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is terrifying. And I have children's books and I started with writing them as just a hobby. Sitting there with toddlers thought oh, this would be fun on. I don't even think it was Canva yet, it was something like totally ridiculous. Um, I was doing it on you know a computer from who knows what 90 year and, uh it, it just transformed into this you know story, telling my child that her physical difference, which I also have and is hereditary in my family, that both my kiddos have it's outer ear, microtia, I just have these little tiny teeny ears. But, man, I had a hard time growing up. I was bullied. I was called little ears from I don't know how early on in school until I was literally pregnant in a gas station in my thirties and somebody was like, hey, little ears, you know, and I just thought you'd be kidding me. You know like, hello, uh, it just uh, those things just really can stick with you, I guess, and hopefully our guests.
Speaker 4:As someone with ADHD, I totally would have thrown back like, hey, big ears yeah.
Speaker 3:I. You know, my dad was a general in the Air Force, and so keeping my mouth shut was the kind of goal of you know. That was where I was always kept, was in kind of a closed down state, and so I didn't have the courage or anything to fight back to people like that. I just kind of yeah, it's the saddest thing, isn't it? But I've done a lot of inner child work. Little Sarah's okay now, but you know it's the book. I wanted to let her know that, no matter what, that wasn't what defined her, and she didn't need to. She needed to see that there were differences all around her and that those all made up this society. And it was actually about these cats that had like little ears, and so I likened it to how cats are so different from one another. And you don't, there's not very many of the same cats. We even have four of the same breed. They are nothing alike. They couldn't be further from different from one another.
Speaker 3:So it's, it's kind of a beautiful analogy, yeah, yeah. But when I decided to publish them and, kind of like you, said I well, in a different way, I, you know, went to hundreds and hundreds of publishers just probably 100 publishers and everyone said no, nobody wanted hundreds and hundreds, it feels like it, and everyone said no, hundreds and hundreds, it feels like it. Everyone said no and nobody was interested. Because I had written about Down syndrome and autism and physical differences. Nobody was interested in special needs books. They were like no way. And I self-published them because I knew how important they were. I knew how important they were to not only my family, my neighbors, my kids' peers at school, so that they could have kind of a glimpse of how they could support them better and maybe understand my son, who was physically different, but not physically different than them, if that makes sense. You know, behaviorally different.
Speaker 4:Um, and the stubbornness and the mama bear, oh isn't that the truth?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so anyways, yeah, I that that terrified notion that I'm going to share this with the world. And what if people tear it down Like these are this is my kids' stories. Is this even should I do this? Is this risky? I didn't use um. I guess I did use their names, but it also hurts. So, but you know, in the process, um, I think my daughter was like eight years old at the time and she was, has always been, an artist. She's, I've always been the wordsmith and she's such a beautiful artist and she illustrated a book and I published it for her. I mean just to show her that like those things can happen. You know, you set your working emotion. So, yeah, all girls can become artists, and published ones at that what is that one?
Speaker 4:one that your daughter made or illustrated.
Speaker 3:Anna's ABC book. Yeah and um, it was just so. She put a lot of work into it, you know, into the illustrations, and then I just kind of put a little poem along with it to bring it together. And yeah, it'll be always something special. And you know, she's a teenager now so I'm sure it's like so cringy that I'm even bringing this up, but you know, someday I hope that she'll it will be something she embraces and is proud of or wants to share with, you know, other generations, yeah I think better to be cringy than not yeah, I suppose so, because you can at least look back and know that like and to know how capable you can be at whatever age you know, with the support of people who who love and support you, which sounds like you know both of us are have been wonderfully blessed with having in
Speaker 3:our lives. Um, let's talk about your. Uh, you know what it's like to be a mom and trying to write a book and how ADHD falls in line with that. What are some gosh, I totally. My mind just wants to answer so many questions right now. Okay, stick to one question at a time, know? Okay, stick to one question at a time. What was it like having to because I know how busy I get when I'm in a project, you know deal with the needs of everyone and get that done, and how do you deal with your ADHD when you're doing that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean I can't, you know. That's why I have help. So, basically, you know when I decided I was going to start this project because it is a project, you know it doesn't just start with writing a book. You know it starts with writing a book and writing a book proposal, knowing how to write a book proposal, looking up information and how do you even get your foot in the door, applying and getting an agent. You know applying, like you said, you know sending it to publishers and it's a whole process. It's a project and so I knew it was going to be like a huge undertaking.
Speaker 4:Whatever I had listened to on YouTube, they all said you know it takes a long time if you go the traditional route, the publishing, and even to try to go that route can take a long time before you decide not to do it. So I figured you know it would take a while. So I decided you know I had at the time we already had a nanny coming on Sundays and I was seeing clients on Sundays Because you know I was it was sort of you know it's to do them a favor. I was also like kind of a people pleaser. I wanted to look good in my position and it was extra money, obviously, because I was working like six day work weeks and I was feeling really burnt out. I think you know, when you're doing the same thing over and over and over and over again, especially when you have ADHD, it's like Groundhog Day. And you know I got to a point where I couldn't handle it anymore and so, after talking to someone, I wrote about this in my book.
Speaker 4:After talking to someone about it, I decided you know what I'm going to start this. You know, like I've known since I was 14, I wanted to publish a book and so I just decided I'm going to start now and I gave my Sunday clients like a lot of notice, like three months notice, and I planned, you know, I gave myself time and then my Sundays were clear with a nanny, and those were the days that you know I would go to Barnes and Noble. Like leave the house. You have to leave because otherwise it's like you still feel your children in the background.
Speaker 4:You know what I mean, like their presence and the noise if something falls, you know, like you, just it's hard to pay attention, I think, in that context, and so I would literally like remove myself and go to Barnes and Noble and that's actually where I'm going to do my book launch, exactly where I wrote my book, most of it at least. Yeah, because I wrote about writing in Whole Foods too. But if I was writing in Whole Foods it was because Barnes Noble wasn't open yet. So I like made my rounds, like my way you know, 8, 9 am Whole Foods and then made my way to Barnes Noble.
Speaker 3:That's funny.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but yeah I would, I would leave, and it was also. What I found is that if I'm in a context where I feel motivated because there are books around me or you know, go to Whole Foods. And at the time I, we started working on like an ADHD here's the oh, here's the original one. So this was selling and I'm super excited. And then we shifted and now the one that's out is this one. But at the time, while I was writing, like the purple one was out. So I would go to Whole Foods, see the magazine sitting right there, you know, and then go sit and work. It was like such a good motivator, like a visual of like going to get published. You just need to keep working on it. And there's, you know, body doubling aspect to like we work better when other people around us are working. So I would sit next to someone else with a laptop, yeah else with a laptop.
Speaker 3:Um, yeah, gosh, I I've never thought of that, or or I mean, I don't know if I have the opportunity I guess as much to to do that, but maybe I come make him sit on my computer next to me and do stuff. I'll create my own. Doubling. That's funny. What is your therapy like? What do you offer and what does that look like? If people are interested in looking for services, what do you usually? Yes, teen stuff is like so huge. I have teens, I get it stuff is like so huge.
Speaker 4:I have teens, I get it. Yeah, no, it really, you know, just depends on the family, obviously depends on the age. You know, if kid is younger, more seven, you know I work with them. But I also work a lot with the parents Because a lot of times, especially the kids that come in to see me have behavioral issues and the parents are unsure about how to manage their, their kids behaviors at home. They might have like outbursts and maybe undiagnosed ADHD or autism and they, you know, they aren't really sure like how to get their kid to comply with commands, like if they tell them to do something their kid might not listen, or they feel like they need to ask 70 times before their kid actually like follows through, and then that's really frustrating to the parent. It's very overwhelming. That's more younger kids, um, a lot of behavioral stuff, a lot of behavioral stuff, and then with older teens it kind of depends.
Speaker 4:But you know, for a lot of my neurodivergent clients I start very simple and I just kind of see where they're at in the beginning and I try to be very concrete. So you know, we'll work on like emotion identification and you know what are the emotions. Let's start with that. You know we'll work on like emotion identification and you know what are the emotions. Let's start with that. You know when you identify.
Speaker 4:How do you know when you feel anxious? What are some clues? How do you know when someone else feels anxious? What are some clues, like tying that into. You know the social aspect.
Speaker 4:What do people do with their face when they're anxious? Like, what do they do with their bodies? Why do you think they do that? It's interesting, I think, to learn. It's interesting to learn it when you're a teen too. But yeah, and then, moving from there, like, what's a thought? How does the thought look? Like? It could look different for different people. Sometimes they can be sentences like how can you try to figure out what someone's thinking? This, you know, it seems like intuitive for people, but not for people who are nerd virgins. You need to really like spell it out. And I find that because again, it kind of it differs With ADHD it's not so much a disorder of like knowledge.
Speaker 4:Like people with ADHD generally know this stuff. It's just harder for them in the moment to carry out the right, right response. So they end up getting in trouble or people don't like them or they get rejected, whereas with autism it really is just, you know, mostly from my experience it's a knowledge deficit. They just don't know Like, but then once someone teaches it to them, like they really do great in a sense, like it's easier. I mean, I'm not saying this one is easier to be autistic than that, but I'm just saying to treat it, to work on that, on an knowledge deficit, if you just teach it and then you know the impulsivity isn't necessarily there, um, then you know they're able to to apply it very well.
Speaker 3:Exactly. And nowadays, when we're seeing this combination which I'm sure you see commonly in the ADHD kind of mixture of the two, let's? Because a lot of my audience are in the autistic community and, let's be honest, I mean I'm ADHD, my husband, my kids, like the whole gamut. So let's talk about. I didn't maybe. I don't know if you could say identifiers, if you will, I don't know if that's the right word to use, and also we'll get to misconceptions in a minute.
Speaker 4:Identifiers meaning like how do you?
Speaker 3:when somebody is curious about if their child might be neurodivergent? What are the kind of standards that you would use to say the fall within these guidelines? I don't know, cause you're not using the DSM anymore. What does that look like for you? As you know, the uh, the doctor who has to make these decisions on the diagnosis. No, I'm using the.
Speaker 4:DSM like to diagnose, yeah, yeah. So right now we're on the DSM 5TR. It doesn't mean I agree with all of the stuff that's in there A hundred percent. Right, okay, as a psychologist I have to use it. Interesting, okay, it depends on the practice. You know like I'm in private practice right now. So technically, like, we don't have to. It's like if it's a private pay client you don't have to include a diagnosis. But it's hard for me, the way I was trained. You know like I have a lot of testing, like psychological testing, in my background Right now. I don't do it just because I don't prefer it, like I just don't really like doing testing, although I technically can, but I like therapy more. So I'd rather use my time on that, okay, but I'm knowledgeable about it and so the way I frame my interventions is with diagnosis, diagnoses. You know like it's. It's hard for me to, you know, come up with a plan if I don't have a name for it.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I have a name, but it's loose. You know what I mean. Like name, with flexibility, like um, you know, with ADHD, for instance. I'm not like a believer in the. A lot of people say what type are you Like? This is not a horoscope you know, it's like?
Speaker 4:what type? First of all, it's not a type, it's a presentation. The word has been changed because there's so much room for change over, especially over time. You know, mostly kids will get diagnosed when they're really young with like predominantly hyperactive, impulsive presentation, or combined, and then it might change to like inattentive I hate that word too like as you make it into adulthood.
Speaker 4:For me it's like do you have ADHD or do not? Yeah, because if it can change, then it's just symptoms, right, like your symptoms can change over time, but the core diagnosis is the same. You know, with autism we have different levels. That's different, you know. It's like talking about like, like the level of supports that the person needs. That makes so much more sense to me, you know, it would make more sense to me to have ADHD be a bunch of symptoms and the person just needs to meet criteria for ADHD and then what level of support do they need? And then the thought that it could be on a spectrum also makes sense to me. With ADHD, like, why do we treat one like this but the other one differently? But it doesn't matter, because it's still. It helps me understand, you know, and create interventions regardless, even though there are, you know, I feel like these gaps.
Speaker 3:Which is nice that you get to individualize them because, like you said, it's going to be different for every family that's stepping in their cultural differences, experiences, family dynamics. So much, so much, so much to go into that how you would, you know, help one family. So that's. That's a lot of work, and that's that's exciting, though, and like creative, in a way, that you get to put these strategies in place and then see them through.
Speaker 4:So yeah, humans are complicated, you know. That's why I and a lot of other therapists would probably agree that AI is not going to take over our profession. Like, we are not threatened at all. It's not a job for robots, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean it's great for organizing paperwork, but it really it's not going to, especially when we're, especially especially when we're understanding more and more right my vocabulary when we're learning more and more about the presentations, like you said, of autistic individuals, of individuals of ADHD, neurodivergent apraxia. We're learning so much and it's coming to, you know, there's lights being shown and we can kind of have a little bit of a glimpse of how we can better support those other, you know, members of our society that have been, in years past let's just be honest forgotten and pushed aside, and that's painful. So how do you see the misconceptions of ADHD? What do people normally have as a misconception?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean the most common response is like, well, no, she can't have ADHD, she's not like bouncing around everywhere, like she's able to sit still, or you know, for boys, if you're thinking about boys a common misconception. That used to be, and I hear it sometimes still. But like they'll say how can he have ADHD? Like that would be. That would mean he can't pay attention and he can sit with his video games for hours. Have ADHD? Like that would be. That would mean he can't pay attention, he can sit with his video games for hours.
Speaker 4:I remember hearing that more like early on in my career when I was a student and now less. Like people are more aware that that's not a good rationale for a kid not to have ADHD. You can be like hyper-focused and really interested on something and sit through it for hours, just like someone who's autistic can, exactly. But if it's not interesting, that's the problem and that's why I hate the word inattention, because it's not inattentive, if anything, it's an overabundance of attention. I know I've heard Dr Ned Hallowell describe it like that and a bunch of other ADHD experts describe it in that way and I even boil it down like in my book I have a chapter on, like the neurobiology and neurotransmitters and basically you know I talk about how, like brain structure is important in understanding ADHD, as I'm sure also autism and other forms of neurodiversity. But what seems to be more relevant is brain function, like what is happening in the brain, and it's the over communication and the way I describe it is. I only remember this because I've been looking at this for so long now. But my, my book, like the manuscript and editing and whatever, but I wrote it was like um, there's like a 1920 style, a great Gatsby party in your brain while you're trying to do your homework. It's like there's this push and pull, you know, between different brain networks, you know, and overactivity it's over. There's a party in there, you know, and that's what's. There's too much attention, you know, you're paying attention to this thought. That's irrelevant, you know, while also trying to focus on what's in front of you.
Speaker 4:The other thing is Dr Russell Barkley talks about this but like, adhders are field dependent learners, meaning that you know, if you think about like working memory, for example, working memory is the ability to hold information in mind and then manipulate it. So, like mental math requires really good working memory skills and we're just not good at that. And so field dependent learning basically means that you're like a visual learner and you're learning and taking in information from your environment, from the stuff that's around you, and then kind of making little calculations in your head trying to understand it. But you need to have that stuff in front of you and that's why we suck at mental math. Why we suck, you know, at mental math.
Speaker 4:But we could sit and you know, with a calculator. If we're given paper and pencil, it's a little bit easier for us If it's visual and active and you know we could put it down on something in front of us. So if we're field dependent learners and we're so in tune with what's happening around us because it's hard to keep all of it in our heads, think about what happens, like when you're trying to focus on that textbook or reading that one paragraph in front of you, like there's so much to look at in the world, so you're absorbing all this information plus all the information that's distracting you in your brain, plus trying to focus on the paragraph in front of you, so there's only you know. I mean people talk about doing like alternative therapies, like how the hell are you going to use an alternative therapy for that you know, you have to.
Speaker 4:You know there's nothing better that's going to help it than medication. If that makes people angry, then you know that's fine. That's just what the research shows.
Speaker 3:No, I'm glad you said that, cause that was weird. I was going to bring that up because I really like um to show both sides of that, because I personally, you know, don't want to look into medications, but I believe that it is so important for those who are interested and who do have that let's talk about the types of medications that do help, and I completely believe in it. I just don't want it for myself, and isn't that what it comes down to? It's really our own free will, personal journey experience, whatever you want to call it. But yeah, I definitely wanted to touch on medication because I completely respect that and I think that people that get mad about it don't have the ability to stand outside and see both sides, and maybe that's one of my superpowers.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, no, I agree with you. At the end of the day it's a personal decision. I also am a very big advocate of educating yourself, and you know when I say educating yourself, like you said before, like doing research, right, but looking at Google scholar, listening to the experts in the field talk about it, but not just the experts, right. Like also talk to people, real human beings you know, who struggle with the disorder, and ask them what has helped you. It's good to combine, I think, like anecdotal or like personal evidence. As a clinical psychologist, I have to say this, you know, because you can look at the numbers and research and not be convinced, but if you can talk to a few people, in addition to reading the research and listening to experts for example, dr Russell Barkley, dr Edward Hallowell a book that really inspired me and moved me to write my book was ADHD 2.0. You can also listen to or read Understanding Girls with ADHD. Those are both really good places to start Focusing on ADHD.
Speaker 4:Of course, there's a lot of resources for all the other neurodevelopmental conditions, but I can speak the best you know in terms of subfields because I just wrote a book about ADHD in women. But but yeah, I mean, you know, I mean when you look at the research, it's like the numbers just don't lie and I think there's a lot of like fear mongering from the media basically trying to, you know, I guess, like disseminate misinformation that stimulant medications are scary or they're like really bad for you. But this is the most well studied psychotropic drug on the market because of all of the negative attention that it has been given, um, and it's the most effective and it's the most carefully studied. And the other thing is that is honestly that has pushed me and, you know, I'm going to start my daughter on medication and she's young, she's seven. But the reason I want to is because there's also abundant research A lot of people don't know about, about something called neuro promotion.
Speaker 4:Well, russ Barkley calls it neuropromotion, but others have called it like neuroprotection, but he said it's more appropriately neuropromotion because basically there are studies showing that when kids have taken stimulant medications to treat their ADHD over several years, then their brain starts to develop to a point where it starts to become non-distinguishable from people who are neurotypical. So it's overall brain volume and then also specific brain areas that are affected by ADHD, such as the cerebellum, the frontal lobe I don't know if it said also the basal ganglia. I don't remember all the specific areas, but there's research looking at targeted like brain areas that are generally affected in people with ADHD and they use like fMRIs and um imaging techniques to show that like there's change and growth over time. Uh, for those who take stimulant medications.
Speaker 3:And I think it's important. I love that. You said it several times. It's important to find things that have been studied, and I think that you, especially having that kind of interest, knowledge to find those things, is so important and so helpful to your clients, because they're not just getting something that, yeah, this pharmaceutical company is paying me, as this doctor, to sell this drug that I don't know anything about. I, you know, don't know that that's ever happened, but, um, you know, just in case. No, I really like that. You said that because I think that that's an important factor to take into when deciding what type of medication you're going to take for yourself or put your child on, especially and you know, for us personally, we did, when my son was younger, tried some, I'm trying to think, tried some medications, but he didn't, wouldn't take oral medications, and so your son.
Speaker 4:You said your son is autistic.
Speaker 3:Now Correct, yeah, and so yeah and yeah, and it was he at the time was um had been diagnosed. Uh, we went to Goldberg, who is a psychologist here in in Utah. I don't know if you've heard of him. He's written a few books as well, um, and did some work on the DSM or something. But he was a little proud of himself in his session with us and telling us all of his accolades or whatever anyways. But he also, you know, at that time, diagnosed him um autism, adhd, global developmental delay. He does have a 99% working memory, so I think that you, understanding that is like yay, somebody that understands it can really like appreciate what that means. Um, and there's, you know he was like reading a one and writing it too, two, and just like memorizing everything he ever saw.
Speaker 3:And so it's. It's been an exciting life with him, although, yeah, and he but he has a really hard time with reciprocity conversations or any that kind of communication, so it doesn't provide him the necessary skills and social things that he does. But yeah, so I had a care I think it was like concerta or something and, um, it was he. We only did it for a couple of days Cause I, like I said he wouldn't do a oral medication and so we had to, like, shove it in his mouth quickly, right when he woke up.
Speaker 3:The most horrifying, traumatic thing, yeah absolutely hated it right, when he woke up the most horrifying, traumatic thing that you've had to say Absolutely hated it. So I went to his pediatrician I said no, no, no, no, no, I can't do this. This is nope, I'm not doing this. We got to find something different. I said find something topical. So she did, she went and she found a patch that we'd put on him and we were only doing it because he was going to start a new school and we wanted just to put him on the best you know, forward for him, um, but those things didn't end up working out for him. We did notice, like the first day on the concert to he, I, I filmed him, um, he was a totally different person. He spoke differently. He, um, if it were to work for him, I don't know, there's too. It's too bad that there were other ways that it. You know, we could have done a little bit more, but he ended up not sleeping for four days after that first time that we had him on that and, yeah, it was just like a mess, trial and error, mess, right, but he's 15 now and that was when he was like eight or nine. So it's been years, uh, years ago, since we've even tried medications.
Speaker 3:But I, with my daughter, I thought, okay, she also, um, uh, adhd, autism, dyslexia, and so, for her it was more, we went for the dyslexia uh diagnosis. For her it was more, we went for the dyslexia diagnosis, which was obvious, and the teachers didn't think so, because once again, she was a smart girl who could have these wonderful conversations, who was very curious and imaginative. And how could she be dyslexic? Well, because she writes backwards, pay attention, teachers, so interesting. But yeah, we finally got her help.
Speaker 3:But just recently, um, for seventh grade, I thought, okay, well, um, you know, we'll just want to try to get her the most support. And so, um, I found a supplement that I won't, you know, sell on here, cause I don't know about it enough, but it really seemed to help and just like the focus, and just really like, oh, I feel really good, didn't have any side effects or anything. So I took it for a couple of times too and I thought, wow, this has really helped me get through my day. So I think that finding what works for you is a fantastic idea and not being afraid of trying a medication for yourself or your kiddo. I was going to say that about your son too.
Speaker 4:I was going to say it's better to try. I think in most cases it's better to try than not to try, because now you've tried it and you can say this is another way not to screw in a light bulb. You know this doesn't work and in most cases it's not going to permanently damage your child. I mean, I don't know of a single story like that. I'm sure they exist somewhere. There's always a fluke. You know case. But yeah, it was stimulant medication. The nice thing about it is it's not like an SSRI where you have to take it for six weeks and then know whether it's effective or not. You can take it one day and even take a short acting one like an Advil it's like four hours long and then, if you don't like it, don't take it again. Exactly.
Speaker 3:Exactly, Exactly and you know, like you said, maybe give it a measured test run so that you can see how it helps, or or if it really messes, yeah. Yeah, Like you said, don't do it, but I think it's important. I think it's an important part of the discussion and part of the understanding that it's not a one size fits all anything. Our brains are different. No matter whether you know, we're both ADHD, autistic, whatever, like, our brains are still going to be different. Um, and it's. I think that that's so fascinating. What do you think? What's your opinion about brain scanning and brains mapping and scans? That's how I got my information. What's your opinion about that?
Speaker 4:I'm skeptical of it. Um, I know that, um, catherine Ellison. So she's published a book called buzz you're paying attention. She writes about her experience with um, finding out about her own ADHD and treating her son, uh, who had ADHD, who has ADHD, but now he's an adult, but he was a kid in the book. And so she goes and she does like I don't know, brain scanning, brain mapping, they're like, they're all the same.
Speaker 4:I don't have personal experience with it, but I know that the research is kind of like mixed and muddied in relation to it's like validity. You know, is it really kind of measuring what we think it's measuring validity? You know, is it really kind of measuring what we think it's measuring? Um, and so because of that, you know, I'm skeptical. Even with genes, you know there aren't any like genes we, or a group of genes we could specifically point to and say like here are the genes that produce, you know, adhd, or really like any mental disorder, to my knowledge at least. I think maybe it'll be a long time before we get to a point where we can really go down and simplify them that way, or maybe we won't ever get there at all.
Speaker 3:Isn't that the truth at all? Isn't that the truth? And I think, as a parent, there has to be a time where, as a doctor, don't ever give up this curiosity as why, where and how, but as a parent, there comes a time where you have to just accept your kid or yourself or whatever. I guess I'm speaking as a parent for a kid, of who they are as a person and what this child is like and their personality, rather than just seeing them for the things that they could change about themselves to make them seem better, whatever. I think that's sad, but I think it's just a journey, whatever. I think that's sad, but I think it's just a journey.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of parenting styles that are changing, a lot of open discussions about how we can do things differently, and maybe it, you know, comes a lot from like you had kind of mentioned before, from like you had kind of mentioned before living experience.
Speaker 3:Have someone living that experience, especially as a parent, as a woman who, you know, maybe has ADHD and you know, hopefully it's a valid enough thing that I can trust now. And I think that between me and my husband, a thing that we always kind of said between each other was Do you really question things like this if they aren't In front of you? Like you wouldn't go outside and be like boy? I wonder if the sky is red today or if it's gray, like it's obviously gray. You don't have to wonder if it's a red day, like it's not. But I think that people often find themselves in this like oh, I wonder, I wonder, and I think that there's a little bit of like curiosity to be had with that question. So be curious. I think that's's a little bit of like curiosity to be had with that question, so be curious.
Speaker 4:I think that's the best thing. Yeah, I think I understand what you're saying. You're saying that, like you know, you want to feel certain about certain things, but you also need to be open to the possibility that they're not necessarily what you expect for right to the possibility that they're not necessarily what you expect for right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, or you know, and I'm maybe speaking from more of like um, my kind of support system and more um in an autistic like um support. So, like my mom never questioned in her life, like my mom never questioned in her life whether or not she might be near diverse, is she near typical because of that? I don't know. I questioned my whole life whether I was typical for me. That is telling to me that I possibly am not, because I don't think I would question otherwise. I don't know if we have that within us to be curious about. I don't mean that was like a super deep I don't even know where it came from thing to say it's pretty generalized and probably totally, you know, could be falsified.
Speaker 4:But hey, today's Sarah's opinion all depends on, I think, like you know, what perspective you're looking at it from. You know, if you look at just material, simple perspective, or you're just like I need to get my services covered by insurance, then you need very clear cut answers. But as a human being, you know, my opinion is like what's so bad with leaning into uncertainty and just saying like I think a lot of things in life are just constructed Right? I was having this conversation with my husband the other day too. You know, like there are subjects within psychology that you know people will say like well, you can't prove that, but what can you prove? You know? I mean, even now the ADHD criteria, like we're developed on and for mostly little boys, are going to change. Nothing is set in stone, you know. Things change. Opinions change, our understanding of the world changes. That's part of being alive and growing and you have to be okay with that.
Speaker 3:I can't believe how much time has gone. This has been such a great conversation. You know I want to make sure that everyone knows where to go get the book. Talk about the book. Let's talk about what is the book called. I have a little preview here. I'm going to pull it up really fast for everybody to see it. Allow me to interrupt. Tell us the oh. The moment you decided like oh, this is my book, this is going to be the title, this is, you know, the cover. I. I kind of saw you get to go through that process, so yeah, no, I'm really excited.
Speaker 4:It feels good when you pull it up. I love that megaphone. It's so cool, um, um, how do I, I don't know? There were a lot of questions there. Okay, a title, so actually interesting.
Speaker 4:Interestingly, the first title I had when I was pitching, without an agent or anything, it was sensitive and selective, uh, because, again, I hate the word inattention, I think it's more selective attention and because I wanted the book to be about emotional dysregulation and, uh, sensitivities. I think there's a big sensory component to that. So that was the title. And then, you know, basically the agreement was that it's too complicated and not catchy enough. So then I came up with allow me to interrupt. And then, together with, like, my team, we came up with this.
Speaker 4:I got just reveals the emotional truth behind women's adhd, but I like it. It's like it's got that pizzazz, um and kind of um playfulness to it, and I think you know my tone and, uh, the stories you know in the book are they're playful, they're serious, but there's some funny elements to them because we're funny, absolutely. They're funny, yeah, but it's also, you know and I start chapter one with this it's also inspired by the Taming of the Shrew. Okay, so the chat. Each chapter is written kind of like the wording of if I be lost, best be where my sting. So that's chapter one, and then every chapter is kind of worded like that If I be lost, best I find my way like Shakespeare.
Speaker 3:It's fantastic. I love that you brought your own elements into it like that and made it less clinical, if you will, and more just for an everyday reader, and I love that Really, really lovely. And you can go to Dr Gilly Khan's website here at wwwdrgillykhancom, where you can find links to the website, to the website, links to the book on the website and also links to social media to go follow social media. The book is in pre-order right now, is that correct?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's going to launch September 9th. Say that again September 9th. Yeah, it launches september 9th, but pre-order it because that's how, basically, apparently I had to teach this to myself, but too, but, um, that's how they know, like how many you know copies to make. So if you really you get a copy on time, then it makes more sense to pre-order it.
Speaker 3:Love that and that will all be in the show notes so that you can go and get that information and go and support and you know, if you're looking for therapy services in Atlanta and you need to, or you loved this discussion and want to find out more, please reach out. What are your plans? What you said? You're onto the next thing.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so you know I have to discuss. I pitched a couple ideas and I'm kind of kind of set on this one idea, so hopefully it I can carry it through. But this is just like thoughts, you know, and hypothetical at the moment. But I'm really interested in ADHD. But I'm also really interested in and one of my articles in ADHD, like the women's magazine, is on this topic. It's about like intuition, you know gut feelings, consciousness, and you know consciousness. The question of consciousness of, is it you know kind of? You know consciousness, the question of consciousness of, is it, you know, kind of, uh, limited to brain activity, or could there be kind of like beyond the brain, love?
Speaker 3:it.
Speaker 3:I love that yeah, right up my alley if you ever want to have a deep discussion with people, isn't it? Is you really it really is, isn't it? I think that it is definitely so. I I think that the way you kind of went about what I'm gonna say this, that's great. I love that. Oh, I wish you all the best and I I'm really, really glad we got to catch up and have this amazing discussion today. Any advice that you want to give to other women with ADHD out there, since it seems like that's something we just didn't touch on? Unfortunately, we'll have to have another discussion about that someday.
Speaker 4:Advice to women with ADHD.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what's your top kind of advice that you would give?
Speaker 4:They don't know you as well as you know yourself. That's what I would say. You know, because other people are, can be judgmental and they can misunderstand you, but you know deep down that what kind of a person you are and what your intentions are and what your goals are, and don't let other people stop that.
Speaker 3:Love that. That's fantastic. Thank you so much. It's really just been such a pleasure and I look forward to keep following you and watching your journey and getting the book and reading all of the exciting and fun things and, yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. So thank you so much for your time today and I look forward to staying in touch.
Speaker 4:Of course, yeah, same to you. Thank you so much for having me on the show today, sarah.
Speaker 2:In the heart of a city. She's shining bright. Oh yeah. Stories of love and courage all throughout the night. Her voice resonating an anthem for all. Stories of love and courage all throughout the night. Her voice resonating an anthem for all. Through the trials and the strife, she answers the call. A mother and a fighter, breaking barriers and strife. Her love is her guide. She'll never hide. She's changing the world for you in the light. She stands for family. I've kissed them all. The movement of compassion. Waves will soar. Podcast together. Symphony of support In life Changing report. She's changing the world for you With a heart that's fierce and strong. Empathies and melodies. A journey we all belong To her eyes. Thank you. We all belong.
