Episode 361-Backward Design Parenting with Nathaniel Turner

Parenting gets loud when you’re stuck in the day to day. This conversation gets quiet in the best way and asks the bigger question: what do we want our kids to carry when our titles and paychecks are long forgotten? We’re joined by Nathaniel Turner, co-founder of the League of Extraordinary Parents, who opens with a powerful reminder that legacy is measured in character and relationships. That grounding turns “success” into something you can actually practice at home. 

Nathaniel walks us through the League’s core tool: backward design parenting. It’s the same planning method educators use to start with the end goal and work back to week one, but applied to family life and long-term child development. He shares the origin story that started it all, including the moment he and his wife requested a Harvard application for their unborn child and discovered what was really being evaluated beyond grades and test scores. From that process, he outlines three practical pillars parents can build toward: intellectual ambition, global and cultural competency, and humanitarian drive. 

We also get real about the parts that don’t fit neatly on a checklist: self-awareness, priorities, and the courage to stop outsourcing the opportunity of parenting. Nathaniel explains why knowing “where you are” matters as much as naming the destination, and why you can have everything but not all at once. We talk about being a zealous advocate for your child, modeling the values you want them to live, and building a relationship strong enough that your kid can be your pal even when hard boundaries are still required. 

If you’re craving a clear parenting framework with heart, this one will stay with you. Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with a parent who needs encouragement, and leave a review with the pillar you want to strengthen first.

Transcript

Welcome And Why Identity Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, thanks for joining the SG Child Show today. I have a really great guest, and I'm really looking forward to this conversation, Nathaniel Turner. I'm going to let you say all of the extra things, you know, because you know it best. But co-founder of the League of Extraordinary Parents. And we're going to get into what that means more in this conversation. But before that, hello. Welcome to the show. Introduce yourself and let us know, you know, how you're doing today.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Well, first, I'm going to say thank you for having me. I'm grateful for the opportunity to be here. Hopefully, I'll say something meaningful that your guests can use. I'm Nathaniel Turner, but and I just simply say this to anyone ask me who I am. I am the son of Tommy L and Gladys T. Turner. I am the husband of Latanya, the father of Naeem, the brother of Kimberly, and a few other people. And I'm a guy who's originally from Gary, Indiana. And so I always tell people, Gary, Indiana made me who I am, good or bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Oh, I love that. And you know, we always kind of take a piece of where we're from with us throughout our lives, no matter what that looks like. I think that is I'm from Reno, the biggest little city. Like I feel like that's who I am, like the biggest little person I could be all the time. So I've never even said that sentence in my life, and it just sounds perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Well, good. Now you can say it more often. I am.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

I'm going to. Thank you. Thanks. We've already learned something podcast. No, I'm just joking.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

No, no, no, no. Now, can I say this? Like the reason that I feel like it's useful to say that is because a lot of stuff I think we do is pretentious. And as I mentioned to you before we started, my grandmother just passed. And so when you think about an obituary or you think about, you know, sadly, I mean it sounds sad to some people, but it's a part of life. Those last 10 to 12 words that appear on your tomb or your urn won't talk about what I did professionally, won't talk about how much money you made or car you drove or anything like that. They'll just talk about who you were to a handful of people. That when someone else in history comes by and walks by your tomb or your your grave or picks of your urn, they'll say, Oh, okay. Somebody thought he was a nice person. He was a good father. He was like, I've never seen anything that says he was a billionaire. He owned this number of businesses. We'll just talk about the quality of my character. So, and and who uh who who brought me here? So I like to talk about my the trees because I'm somebody's fruit, and I like to mention that that I'm a tree and I'll leave and someone will be my fruit, and that that's the way I like to approach it.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

I think that's so beautiful, and I appreciate you sharing that so much. What got you into your experience of what you're doing today?

SPEAKER_01 3:00

So, by profession, for the last 30 years, I I am an I am a

A Legacy Measured In Character

SPEAKER_01 3:05

lawyer by training and an accountant, and I've run a separate financial services company for about the last 30 years. But what got me into the space with parenting is a child. And this child that I so love that 31 years ago my wife told me it's plus, it's plus, and I had to figure out how to be a better father than the father I had. And and and that child, his life has been remarkable. And because of all of the great things he's been able to do, people would begin to ask, Well, what did you all do for him? And then the conversation became, well, can you do it for other people's children? And so we thought, well, sure, absolutely. And so then we started this organization called the League of Extraordinary Parents, so we could help other parents backward design their own children's lives and so that their children could have extraordinary lives, hopefully equal or greater to the life that our son has had.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Wow, that's so special. I think a lot of amazing organizations are built off of the passions of parents and their experiences on a daily basis. And mine, a great example. I also have, you know, a nonprofit, and it's based around autism safety because in I see the need for the knowledge, the training, the resources that comes with that. And that's a big broad statement to make. But you know, there isn't when you are in community, sometimes you see the gaps, and you see these things when you have a child with any kind of need really, and you see a gap, you want to see that it can be filled, build it yourself. Like there are you know, those things that you do, and and those of us who have the blessing and the opportunity to go and build ourselves what an honor and a creation that we are able to take on and do. Tell us a little bit about the organization and kind of the need it fulfills.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Well, first I'm gonna say to you that what you're doing, what you've done, what you're doing, is to be commended. I'm sure people commend you all the time. I don't get to commend you. This is my first time. So I want to say, because what I've met, what I've what I've experienced during this journey is that so many parents prefer to wait for someone else to do it, and so many parents prefer to outsource the opportunity. I would say responsibility, but it really is an opportunity to do something unique. They wait for somebody else to do it. And so when I hear you say, okay, there's this need and this gap, and I'm gonna fill it, I think that that's extraordinary, and I think people should should acknowledge that. So that's what I want to say first.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

I appreciate that so much. And I I couldn't agree more. Like I feel sometimes that I've lived like a hundred lives and all

Why The League Was Created

SPEAKER_00 6:05

the entrepreneurship that I've done, and ideas and creations, and you know, all the businesses I want to run. And there's just too much. But and it's it's a lot to take on as just a me. But you know, that's when I I find that there are these other individuals out there like yourself who also have that desire to fill these cups of not only the parents, but then for the whole family, for their friends, the their work, you know, relations, everything is uplifted when we spend time just putting a little bit of care and effort into ourselves as parents and into other parents.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Absolutely. So you did ask me a question, and now I forgot it because I was telling you the other part. So if you want to move on from there.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

No, let's see. Oh, well, I mean, let's just talk about the the Leave League of Extraordinary Parents. How like where'd you come up with the idea of the name? I love it.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Sure. Yeah, so I I would be lying if I didn't say that I saw the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen once upon a time and thought, well, well, the League of Extraordinary, I okay, how about parents? What about parents being extraordinary? And of course, uh, I shouldn't say, of course, the fact that I'm trained as a lawyer. Lawyers have this uh obligation, it's called to be a zealous advocate. And so I I you know thought about that in the same way as a parent. I think parents should be zealous advocates for their children, and you sort of combine the ideals behind what is a good lawyer and what is an extraordinary gentleman, and you come up with the League of Extraordinary Parents. So that's that's sort of where it where it where it beg begins.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

And what do you do? Is it community-based, like physical space that you that you do? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 8:12

So the to honestly, we're we're evolving, and we're as most things are. Hopefully, your vault continues to evolve. But what it started out initially was just a way to share with families this process we call backward design. It's not it, it also it's not ours to uh own. It's a process that educators use for a long time, where you just you know, you say, okay, what I want, what do I want my students to learn by the time this semester is over? And then you take this backward approach. What do I need to do in week one, week two, week three? So that when I'm at week 15, they've learned everything I want to learn. We thought about the same thing in terms of parenting. What if we start to think about life by backward design? So when Latanya,

Naming It And Being A Zealous Advocate

SPEAKER_01 8:55

who's my wife, and she says to me that it's plus, it's plus, I'm in law school and I'm Sarah gonna be graduating soon, and I don't have a job, and I'm from Gary, Indiana originally. And most people think that I've done phenomenal, like, hey, you got out of Gary, and you're gonna be a lawyer now. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm unemployed. And I I didn't, and why am I unemployed? So you start to ask these questions and you go backward and you think, oh well, my parents really didn't have a plan. Most of my life has been luck, it's been happenstance. I've been prepared, right? That's what Seneca says. Luck is where preparation and opportunity meet. I've been prepared for some of the opportunities, but maybe some other opportunities I could have had, I just wasn't prepared for.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

And what can I do so that my child has is better situated than I am? So Latani and I wrote Harvard for an application. And we thought, well, what if we could prepare a child? Should Harvard provide them an opportunity to attend that they could get there and not be laughed at if they submitted an application? And so that was the initial goal. Like, just how do we help our own child be able to do better than us, which men at the time, how do we get them prepared to submit an application to a school like Harvard and not have Harvard laugh at them?

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

That that's where that's sort of where it started. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

And it really drives that curiosity and that like dignity, it feels like inside where you're just like, we're gonna do this and we're gonna make sure that the opportunities are are better, that that there are more clear, you know, processes, that there's more access. I'm all about accessibility and access. And the first part of belonging is being invited, right? And and I think that you're starting that process, that invitation process. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah. So then we got the application. We wrote Harvard because it was a long time ago. So you had to write and you get the mailers, you you know, you send it off and it comes back, and Harvard sent us an application for an unborn child. And we then we took the application and broke it down and realized that there were beyond the fact that Harvard expected children with great grades and great test scores. We like we kind of that's the obvious part. But then there were two other things embedded in the application. And the first, the second thing was that Harvard in 1994 were looking for students who were world citizens. And the third element was they were looking for students who cared for something greater than themselves. And we thought, wow, that that's something. Right. So now we now we call these three elements, these three pillars, intellectual ambition, global and cultural competency, and humanitarian drive. And that's the template we use and we share with families. You can pick whatever school you want your child to attend. But my suspicion is most institutions will have some version of that as a part of their mission.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

They'll say they want students, of course, they demand students with great grades and great test scores.

The Backward Design Parenting Method

SPEAKER_01 12:10

The more they'll lead the school, the higher the test scores, the better the grades. But they will also ask you what kind of citizen is your child? And we live in a big world, but the world is small. Sarah's in Utah, and Nate is in Indianapolis area. And but for this technology, Sarah and Nate don't ever get to meet each other. And so now the right, and now the world is big, but the world is small enough for Sarah and Nate. Two people who probably otherwise would never have any reaction to be able to have that.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

And then the last part was hey, can you raise somebody who's gonna lead the planet better? You can have there are a lot of elite people who go to elite schools and make a whole lot of money and care nothing about anybody, and they come and they go from the planet, and we didn't know that they would even here. Can you raise somebody who is going to do something indelible and make the world better than it was when they got here? So that's that's the life template. And now we share that with families and the tools and strategies to bring whatever it is they want for their children to life.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Oh my gosh, that is so beautiful. Give us an idea of what that looks like. How do we guide our child down a path of humanitarianism and like really caring for others?

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Well, I would say the first thing, you know, we talked earlier, the first thing is to take a deep look at ourselves. And my grandmother used to tell me all the time, trees and fruit. I really, you know, at the time I won't say I fully understand it, but I fully understand it now. That sadly, most parents want their children to be something that they themselves are not. And so I think it begins with us. You're gonna be a reflection of your child. And whenever your child, like I remember my mother and father, my father in particular would tell me, you know, that's my name. Don't mess up my name. Like, oh, okay, okay. Before you got it, it belonged to me. And before I got it, it belonged to somebody else. And then you start to understand the weight of that. Okay, you're right. If I looked and read a chapter from a Bible in the very beginning, I would hear so-and-so begot so-and-so, and so-and-so begot so-and-so, and so-and-so begot so-and-so. And you start to then trace your ancestry, you see, oh well, I came from this person, and this person did this, and you realize that I'm just one part of a branch on this long tree, but I have a huge responsibility. So I think that's the very first place that we have to start is having parents to take a look at themselves. Once you figure out who you are and can be honest about that, then you start to say, like you would with a GPS, when I know where I am, only then where I'm going will it make sense. Right? I can pick a destination, but if you ask me where am I, and I can't tell you where I am, it doesn't matter where I want to go.

unknown 15:00

Right?

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Spinning circles, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Exactly. I want to go, but where are you, Nate? I I I I I don't know where I am. Well, so so that's the that's the first thing to be honest with oneself and figure out where you are. And then that's that's what we ask parents. If you know, where are you? And then what are your hopes and dreams? Because that's the destination. What are your hopes and dreams for your child? But where are you? Like, where are you in terms of your your commitment to your child? Where are you in terms of your your understanding of your time? Where are you with recognizing that you cannot have everything, not all at one time? You might be able to have everything, but you can't have everything all at once. Something, like somebody has to take a back seat. And for me, as the parent who who invited this guest to the planet, I I should take the back seat, and they they're what they need should come first.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

So you know, I think parenting has come so far in an era where I really feel like I was kind of like just this product that I had to just just take care of yourself. Please just make it through the day, and we hope we see you at the other end of the show. Okay. We'll meet up at the other end and we hope you're there. You know, and now we have this. I at least me, I've taken the opportunity to really be involved in my kids' lives. I don't want to just know that I can see them from 5 to 8:30 or 9, you know, and once in the morning. Like I when I had the opportunity to stay home and and the opportunity was obligation as well. And so I think that, you know, for me it was kind of like a learned experience, but I see the blessing and I I feel the the wonderful um opportunity it provided me to build connections that couldn't have been built in any other way, other than me showing up every single day saying, I see you, I see where you're at, like what should we do today? What do we need to work on? What should how should we play today? Oh, should we, you know, I think curiosity when we show up curious as parents, we give our kids everything they need then. It's I and I you said something earlier too that I think is just such a key thing to unlocking like the experience with people, and I don't know what it is now. I'm trying that right that that sentence just popped right out like a like a bubble out of my brain. But we'll come, I'm sure though you'll say it and I'll it'll come full circle.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Right, all right.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

But the point is that it really intentional. We're so we're so much more intentional when my husband and I found out very unexpectedly that we were pregnant in an emergency room after a car accident, and they said you're pregnant, and we went, wait, what? We're just here to get an x-ray. What are you talking about? We we I feel like we got to plan it. Like we were like, Oh, what? Like, we get to plan this experience, and I feel like it it didn't happen that way in the past. I don't, I shouldn't say that. My experience was not like that for me. My personal experience coming into this world was like good luck. Yeah, have this experience to and to be who we can be as educators, as people who go even one step further and say, let's share this wonderful like success we're finding. That we found this, you know, within our home kind of bounds and everything. We have, you know, there's no, there's not a lot of fighting, there's no anxiety, there's like a real sense of belonging and being and accommodating everyone's needs from where they're at. That doesn't mean that people don't have bad moods, it doesn't mean that we're not human beings having human experiences.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

It means that we all have this understanding of one another in a way that wasn't something we had experienced growing up, that we're now like we look at each other, and it'll be our 16th anniversary, but we've been together for 22 years, and we just think, How do we we're so lucky? How do we get to do this to build this together to intentionally create the space for people? And I'm so lucky. I'm just so lucky, and that's why you and I get to get together today because you know we're just in that same space.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely grateful and to your point, very fortunate to be able to do that in terms of intentionality. Um I I wanted to be like Mufasa. So my intention from the very beginning was to have this experience with my son, similar to Mafasa and Simba, where Simba asked Mufasa, but we're pals, right? We'll always be pals. And the intentionality that I had then when I learned I was gonna be a father to this very day is to be my son's pal. Which which doesn't mean, and I hear when I tough to tell parents, it doesn't mean that he and I won't disagree. It hasn't meant it hasn't meant that sometimes I don't have to discipline him. It doesn't mean that at times he disciplines me because now he's a grown man and can, and even before he was a grown man when he was a child, right is right. It doesn't have right doesn't have an age uh limit on it. So but we've had a great relationship where where my objective is to be his pal. And I would say to folks, I said, especially men, they would say, well, you can't be your son's

The Three Pillars For An Extraordinary Life

SPEAKER_01 21:05

friend. And I said, but you know, I don't understand the logic in that. Yeah, I am responsible for the creation of something at 50, at least 50% of my genetic code exists in this entity, and it doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. Nobody else has this code, and you're telling me I shouldn't be friends with that entity, right? That's the craziest thing I've ever heard. So yeah, so that's been my intentional thing to be able to say that he and I are pals.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

I love that you said that, and I say the same thing. This is why, this is why we're here today, because we're just on the same wavelength. I would say my 14 year old is my best friend from the 90s. Like, I've never had such a best friend from the 90s in my life than this like ride or die chick. What the heck? Like, how did I get so lucky? And but she also embodies all of the things I don't, this like. sense of this confidence and this bravery and this kind of astute I don't know I I was a product of a military and medical field and it was just very you know resonating yeah and and with her it's just like I've planted her and watered and watched her bloom and it's like she's a different flower than I've ever experienced and the best smell and most colorful and I'm wow well how can I like love this more and no it's I also say to people so many times what about in 15 years what do you want that to look like who do you want to do you want to be talking to this person? Do you want them in your life because I'm experiencing that I have an older stepdaughter that we don't have contact and we there is no communication and you know I it it probably doesn't hurt as deeply and as bad for me as it does for my husband who is his that's his child that's his first child and and I could never you know our children could never replace like that space or that and so I think that now there's like an opportunity that he also sees to create these relationships with the kids we have the opportunities with now. And you know that was coming from a teen parent who did the best that they could they did the best they could but when you don't know you don't know like right and then when you learn you do better and then you have the opportunity to to create so much more.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

So and hopefully hopefully as she as she gains more wisdom and experience she'll offer him extend him grace and mercy yeah with that because we all are going to need grace and mercy at some point and so and you cannot always say that the the grace and mercy are like our hand like our hands your hand moves the same way to to receive as it does to give the same muscles are used. So your heart has to right your heart has to do the same thing if you want people to love you you're going to have to love equally or and oftentimes first. So hopefully one day she'll she'll come to that understanding.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Definitely and we've become different people and I think that you know when you grow and you have the opportunity to look back and you can take those make the choices and take those opportunities if you choose to to you know reconnect or leave it the way it is like that's definitely individual right so and things in the past they're in the past and the only way we give things in the past life is to just keep religigating things that you could also decide you right you could decide that I'm I'm I'm just gonna use this a learning lesson I'm gonna move on and I'm gonna find joy or you can decide to tell whatever story you want to tell the facts are set.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Like how you decide to interpret the story is completely up to you.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Well from now on till this moment from this moment forward relitigation is exactly what I'm saying because I'm a former paralegal and there's nothing I would not want for than that thank you very much and I don't you know most people that don't have a legal background they may not understand but that's okay. You get it absolutely so beautiful I love that oh gosh it's it's so great to have such a special opportunity in life to be able to enjoy our our you know where we're at enjoy our what am I trying to say our role our role of who we're supposed you know like this person we showed up and and are having to be at this point and we're taking the opportunity to enjoy it and to help people look and to see how they can better appreciate and enjoy it for themselves as well.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Tell us more about where we can find out more information about the League of Extraordinary parents sure it's our website is www I guess I don't even have to say it anymore L League X as in an x-ray T-R-A-P

Intentional Parenting And Being Their Pal

SPEAKER_01 26:35

trap.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

So lxtrap.com that's where you can find us okay did I do that right you did okay I was also trying to type out the other one at the same time that didn't work out as fast but you could see it right if you're if you're watching you can see lxtrap.com if you're listening um that's lxtrap.com and go find out more about the leave the league of extraordinary parents I'm so glad that we got to make this connection and I got to visit Indiana and you got to come to Utah right my son's been to Utah he was there years ago doing an internship in Salt Lake City at that the University of yeah University of Utah maybe wonderful it's a great great place we love their healthcare and all of the stuff they do so big fans of that that's wonderful and where's he at now uh he's here in Indiana now he was there as an undergrad trying to get himself trying to do enough things to move on to earn his PhD which he did so that was only 2015 or 2016 when he was he went to Carnegie Mellon okay for his for his PhD in electrical and computer engineering then he went to NYU for his MBA in finance.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Incredible and somebody else paid for it so that was intentional too that's amazing I'm sure you're just so proud of the wonderful man that he has become it sounds like and just great job great job parenting me I'm proud of you not by myself I'm grateful grateful grateful grateful all the other people who've actually poured into his life and and decided to be a part of his village to help him.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah isn't it true? And when we have those people that support us in our life like that I I love that so much and did did were you able to were you guys close to your grandmas you said that they were like in phys close vicinity to each other and everything so my grandmother still lived in Gary so I am about two hours two hours and 15 minutes from where my grandmother lived so the last I would say the last six seven years I've I've probably I've probably I've seen her more then during that time than I had I don't know maybe in 20 years I would say certainly like on holidays and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

But I made a my father passed in 2018 and I made her a promise that I would do a better job since her son was no longer here I'd do a better job of sort of filling in as best as I could so oh that's all I saw a lot more.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Wow and how about your son did he got to see that probably relationship and got to see that care for he did but not not as much as I would what as I would hope.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

I mean she she knew him he knew her but they didn't they don't I don't so she was my grandmother yeah so his great grandmother so it was kind of the same way it was with her mom.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

I didn't know her mother that well either but yeah but he did know or did spend some time with big generation gaps there definitely lots of lots of lots of stuff has changed and somebody born in 1925 and then someone born in 1995. Oh wow incredible my grandfather was born in 1990 or sorry in 1926 and okay I think he passed away at 96. Okay so he was close he was you know in that late 90s too and that's just I I remember him he was up on his roof when he was 92 fixing his shingles he was a home homework he just did everything working working working all the time on his home and he fell off the roof and he had to be helicoptered to the hospital and I went and I told him you could have I know that you did this you could go on this helicopter ride. You know that you like I know you were safe on that room I had given him a bad time I'm like uh huh this is you just waited to because you wanted to go on this helicopter ride didn't you he he lived he did it his way which is yeah exact pretty much like my grandmother she lived uh by herself for a hundred years I mean she lived by herself all but two years two months I'm sorry of her life the last two months she did not live by herself but the rest of the time she lived on her own just incredible incredible grit and grandma stop walking up the stairs grandma get off the ladder I was like just to myself with my sister I was like leave her alone leave her alone leave her alone she might fall yeah yes and she might fall and break her neck yep and if she does she will have lived life the way she wanted to I remember my he had remarried who does that at 85 and is right and has another marriage and she would say well he only wants to eat cookies for dinner and I'd say let him eat cookies are you kidding he earned cookies for dinner like give him every kind of cookie absolutely I'm all for it absolutely I love it this has been such a wonderful discussion and time spent with you thank you so much and been my pleasure if you have you know things that are coming up workshops books anything else you're working on please come back and share with us so that we can also support you in any way and social medias where are you at I have a little bit of a presence not enough we're working with a

Where To Learn More And Closing

SPEAKER_00 32:18

branding a brand strategist now so they're gonna help us to figure out how to to make that work if you're ever interested in in an organization does a great job with not for profits i i've got a wonderful organization to to share with you they're called the Bureau of Small Projects oh wow okay they're they're phenomenal oh I love that well thank you so much and yeah we whenever we can go support I mean at least go to the website and go see how you can access the information and find out if you could get any you know support from from Nathaniel and his league of extraordinary merits. So thank you so much. It was my pleasure this is great thank you for having me. Absolutely I really look forward to staying in touch.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Absolutely I may have to I may